And when I got there, bro, after I came to my senses, I was like screaming, I wanna live.

I wanna live.

I wanna live.

God, I don't care if my wife leaves me, I don't care if I have any money in the bank, I don't care if the team fires me.

God, I wanna live.

This is the Made to Advance Podcast.

I'm your host, Brian Aulick.

We're here to inspire and equip you for your best future.

Well, welcome everybody.

It is so good to be with you today.

And I wanna say something as we get started here.

If you have enjoyed Made to Advance, do me a favor, rate, review us.

Helps get the word out about Made to Advance and more and more people are gonna be able to come across our podcast.

It also helps us bring on more incredible guests like the one we have today.

Hey, before we start the conversation, let me say this, if you got feedback, questions, ideas even, feel free to email us.

The email address is mta@engedichurch.com.

mta@engedichurch.com.

Well, today I have Fred Stokes with me and Fred played for 10 years in the NFL for the Rams, the Saints, and finally Washington, where he won a Super Bowl in 1991.

During that Super Bowl game, big play Stokes got two and a half sacks.

He had one forced fumble and another fumble recovery.

Currently leads a ministry called LINT Brothers.

He's an active speaker around the country and he is an associate pastor at Greenway Church in Orlando, Florida.

Welcome to the show, Fred.

Thank you, Brian.

Man, it's good to have you with us.

Man, it's a pleasure being here.

So I got a couple, we'll get into some serious questions in a second, but I got a couple not serious questions.

All right, first, both today and in seeing you on some previous interviews you did, I saw the belt buckle, all right?

Now I know that, I don't know if you could show it just a little bit there, yeah, see, okay, there's the belt buckle.

And what's the story? That's an impressive belt buckle.

I, it's be who you are, right? So many guys end up faking, right? It's like, either they grew up in an impoverished situation or they grew up even with money.

I mean, sometimes guys who grew up with money or a family that's got money, they try to hide it. They'll dress down and try to downplay it. Guys who are Christian, sometimes they're in a group and they don't want anybody to know they're a Christian.

You know, they're, "I don't want to fake." So, I am who I am, man. I've been wearing boots and jeans practically all my life.

I've just always been a horse guy. We just couldn't afford them because I grew up in a single parent home and we didn't have the money to do it, but I always loved horses. And so when I got a chance to purchase horses, we bought horses. I don't own them now, but it is what it is.

And so I tell people, and I'm here with you, but I tell people, if you want me to wear a suit, put it in the memo, please wear a suit or a tux. I do have a tux, but if not, I'm wearing boots and jeans, baby.

That's it, yeah. So what is it about horses that is, was such interest for your passion?

You know, I guess it's like, it's what you grew up around. Like some guys grew up camping, some guys grew up boating, some guys grew up fishing. I know Deion Sanders, he talks about always loving fishing and it's kind of what you, believe it or not, fathers matter and you're imprinting your kids on something, you know, whether it's smoking or whatever it is. I didn't grow up camping, so it's not camping. Even though I love RVing, I horses, he trained them, he broke them, did a whole nine yards.

And I just love that, just being, the smell of it, being at the barn, just all of it, it really, it just, it really, I say it lowers my heart rate really, because it's just my therapeutic time, man.

And when I had them, I can get on the back of a horse, man, and be gone for two hours and feel like I've been gone for 20 minutes.

Wow.

That's cool.

That's cool.

I, it's funny, you're left for horses.

Now I've never owned a horse, don't really have an interest in owning a horse, But horses are my absolute favorite animal.

But the reason why is I feel like the combination in a horse of strength and beauty in a singular animal is just such a powerful thing, you know, to see that animal can do so much, but then they're just gorgeous animals.

Yes, and you could take the reins of a horse and they're 1,200 pounds or more.

And the one, we used to call it breaking a horse, but if you break a horse, at some point in time, he's going to unbreak.

But if you train him, and that's where the word we use, it's a little bit more sensitive, it's a little bit more compassionate and understanding of the animal and getting them to want to do things for you, not just you making them do it, but in that respect they are, they're huge, they're big, but when you're up there and you can ask them to do stuff, and it is asking them to do it, and they respond, there's nothing like it.

Well, you're here for obviously speaking at a conference that we're having here at Engedi, and if you need a refreshment, I've got a guy who runs a full horse barn as a company.

And so this thing's loaded and he loves horses.

His daughters ride horses and that's his life right now.

So can we cut this short now?

Yeah, all right.

We can just go straight.

Straight to the barn, yeah.

So Washington, they had a good year this year and I'm sure that, I mean, even though it's been a while since you played, I'm sure you're always paying attention.

What was it like watching them have such a good year and how'd you process the end of the year when it got so close?

OK.

What was it like watching them?

I played football for 16 years straight from high school through to pros.

I don't watch it as much because I watch it from a different place because I studied the film and I'm watching the player trying to pick up some nuances here and there.

And we don't have regular TV.

We've got Roku.

So all of my games for the college or the pros, I'm usually watching on YouTube.

And so I'll watch a game a little bit, but because I can't do anything about the outcome, man, I get frustrated, and it just bothers me.

So I'm like, ah.

And so I knew that if they got past Detroit, they had a chance.

Because Detroit really-- that's one of the places, when I played, playing against Barry Sanders, just the-- I think the all-around best running back ever, just because of what he had to deal with.

But playing in Detroit was extremely difficult because of the crowd noise.

And they were playing really good this year.

And I thought, if we can get past Detroit, we had a chance.

But you can't turn the ball over three times, three or four times against a really good team, which is Philly, and now they're home.

But they went farther than I'm sure their expectations showed at the beginning of the season.

I know they exceeded a lot of those, so they can't be mad.

Well, hopefully this will be the beginning of a new era.

I believe so.

They've gotten rid of the person they should have gotten rid of a long time ago.

They got rid of coaches.

They got rid of players.

But the owner never-- now they got rid of the owner, and you see what happens.

I mean, it's almost, what, one year after he's gone, they go to the playoffs?

Right.

Yeah.

It's funny, I heard you on a mutual friend of ours, Jason Romano.

Yes, that's my man.

And he and I were having a conversation the other day, and then we got to talk about football, and then we got to talk about you.

And so I went back and listened to your conversation with him.

Jason poured an Oprah on me.

You, he's a great-- Well, now Fred, when you were 12 now, you want to talk about it, I'm like, I'm sorry.

He's like, come on, bro.

Yeah, I remember you saying you got Oprah'd on that.

Yeah, I mean, like, no.

But you know what?

you were candid about your feelings about the leadership and ownership of Washington.

I'm like, my man is just putting it right down there on the table about, yeah.

Hey, that's who I am. If you ask, okay, I got to tell you.

But it is, honestly, it is a great testimony about leadership because it's fascinating.

People will come up with all kinds of reasons why a team isn't performing, an organization isn't performing, and there are problems that you can fix.

But if you've got a problem at the top, there's only one way to solve that problem.

And what's fascinating-- it is fascinating to watch you do a coach turnover.

Now, I'm an Indiana University grad.

We got the same situation.

Coach Signetti comes in, whether you love him or hate him, and he comes in.

And we're the losingest football program in D1 football.

My man comes in, and all of a sudden, we're in the playoffs.

And not with any marquee players, either.

He came in and threw the portal and threw guys we already had.

But he's a disciple of Saban.

He comes in there, implements a system.

And all of a sudden, these guys are playing out of their minds.

And it's leadership.

Leadership matters, man, from if it's a father all the way up to a coach or whomever is at the top, that person matters.

And it's like you got the same game, the same players, but you get a new leadership in with a new culture.

And I remember when I was with the Rams, man, out in LA, we had the LA mindset.

we practiced a little bit here and there.

Yeah, I could have got that player.

We didn't practice with intentionality.

When I got to the Redskins, Joe Gibbs said-- Coach Gibbs said, nobody's going to practice hard in the Redskins.

I mean, he set the tone.

Like, nobody-- and we were like, practice.

Oh, yeah.

And dude, we hit.

And matter of fact, the Super Bowl we played in against the Bills, I remember the great John Madden saying that he watched both practices.

I didn't know he was there, but obviously he had to prep for the game.

He said-- he watched the Bills and he watched the Redskins.

And he said, I could just about tell who was going to win that game.

Because we all do.

Just by practice.

When you started playing for Washington, and you're under such a legendary coach, if you had to just kind of be more specific on, here were the cultural differences I noticed straight away, what would you highlight as some of the primers?

Walk the walk, talk the talk, walk the walk.

That's what he did.

In what regards?

Be even more specific.

OK.

Coach Gibbs, he professed his faith.

There was no secret.

But he also went through some issues and he talks about them in his book called "Game Plan for Life." How he had a couple of bad investments.

I think he invested in apartments or something and lost his tail and really almost had to file bankruptcy.

While coaching the NFL.

Oh my goodness.

Oh yeah, it's an amazing God story for him.

But that real aspect of his life, he didn't hide it.

And of course, that's what I talk about.

Like God has taken me through some things that yeah, you can't see them, but they're there.

And that's LINT Brother, our minister, LINT Brother, life I never tell.

So to answer your specific question, I've had great coaches from high school, the one year I played in high school to college, great coaching college, got to the pros.

And then I get over to the Redskins in Washington.

And OK, Joe Gibbs, OK, I've had some coaches.

Yeah, OK, he's a Christian.

OK, what does that mean?

Well, we would meet in the-- when we traveled on the road, we would meet in one of the guys rooms in the hotel.

Let's say we're on the road, we go to your room.

All right, Brian, we're meeting in your room this weekend.

And the door was left ajar, so guests can come in and go.

And one night, Coach Gibbs come in.

We're on the road.

Coach Gibbs walks in.

We were like, hey, it's not bed check.

He was like, no, guys, I know it's a little early, but I know you guys have been meeting while we're on the road.

And he was all believers, men of faith.

And he says, I just want to come in and just kind of join and be a part of the group.

We were like, you know you're the head coach of this football team.

You could fire us in a minute.

And he was like, no, seriously, guys, I just want to come in as a man.

I've got a wife.

I've got husband issues.

I've got two boys.

I've got father issues.

And I'd like to be able to just talk.

Because that's all we talked about.

You might talk about what we had to do tomorrow.

Hey, man, it's going to be a tough game tomorrow.

Hey, we do this.

But you're like, dude, man, I'm hurting.

Hey, man, I ain't had any sleep, man.

My baby's still crying.

Just regular stuff.

And he came in with that mentality and that approach.

And yeah, it was kind of sketchy at first.

Now, he's probably gathering some information going, yep, I know Fred Stokes is complaining, you know, Joe.

But he was real, Brian.

And because of that, his stock went up with me.

This guy walks the walk.

You don't just talk that talk, he's walking it.

And that translated to the feel in guys believing who he is or was as a coach and the system that he was implementing.

Even you as a pastor, I mean, if you're faking, it's gonna come out and you're telling us to do something you don't do.

It's like, "Yo guys, you gotta read your Bible, "you gotta do this." Like, "Pastor Brian, come on, bro." You just talking it, you're not walking it.

Well, it sounds like, I mean, you can only, there's a great line, you can only move at the speed of trust when it comes to leadership.

And so it sounds like he really established a culture of trust, starting with him, not just saying, hey, this is what we're gonna be about, but then him being about it.

And I do wanna make a quick side point because it's funny, Chuck, our producer and I were just in a conversation with a dude who's part of our church, 14 year Navy SEAL veteran.

Now you don't get much tougher.

I hate to say this even to an NFL player, but I'm tech, Navy SEAL, I mean, it's hard to get next level, but that's right up there at least.

I show some of those clips, movies, and some of those things to our men, that buzz training.

Oh, there's guys.

Those guys are serious.

But you know what's funny is he was saying the same thing about he was getting together with other guys all the way as a Navy SEAL with team guys, praying for each other, talking about hard things.

And I always just like to challenge any guys who are listening or ladies who are listening.

But I feel like the ladies are more embracing of what I'm about to say.

But here you are, an NFL player, professional.

you're tearing it up on the field and you're still getting together with other guys getting real.

And all the way back then, I know we'll talk about LINT Brother in a bit, but I just think that's such a great example of saying there's nobody who's too strong, too tough, too big, too accomplished to not need some guys that they can sit with and be real with.

I love that example.

But that's what God has taken me to.

So you say we're talking about LINT Brother, but that's a specific ministry, "Red Light, Red Lamp" and "Every Tale." But it's my life.

It's your life.

We just don't-- we bought into the lie, right?

That men are supposed to be-- once you get to a certain level financially or within your-- you get your name on the door, you get the corner office, you get status, position, and authority, and it's like, yeah, I'm different.

Why?

Yeah.

You know, well, I can't really show you my emotions because I'm the boss now.

Really?

Well, I'm the senior pastor, so I can't really be passionate to-- really?

So to me, it's across the board.

And when you see that lived out loud, it's like, oh, he's different.

And it should be the norm, but it's not.

That's right.

Yeah.

Well, I love your example because it helps guys realize, hey, there's another way to do this.

I'd love to-- it's funny.

I know a decent bit now about your football career and even post-football career.

What I don't know as much about is how you grew up.

Help me understand just kind of what growing up was like.

Where, family, all that.

So here's a lot-- spill your background.

My mother was 14 years old.

She got pregnant at 15 when I was born.

My dad was a few years older.

And even though we live in the same hometown, my dad's parents, my grandmother, they were the Pentecostal church family.

They had the name.

They're all singers, most of them.

Their last name, if you know them in the town, is like, oh, I know those guys.

The church was named after them.

And it's just they had that status.

So when my dad got my mom pregnant-- yes, she's 14 years old, but this is in the '60s.

So that wasn't too bad as it is now, even though it's still bad.

They were both teenagers.

But my dad's family was like, there's no way.

that our son did that. Plus, because they were in the church, my grandmother wasn't, my mother's mother wasn't.

And so my dad went off to the service and they never married.

Well, as God would have it, this couple, which was my dad's uncle and aunt, they got word of what happened with their nephew, right? Yes, your nephew got that girl pregnant. So even though they had already had a child that was probably 25 years old when I was born, they answered the call, Brian, they came over and said, let's go see, let's go see.

So they came over, looked at me, check me out, but they brought gifts.

Kind of like they, you know, anyway, they brought gifts and said, hey, we want to be a part of this child's family.

Even though my nephew doesn't, 'cause he's in the service now, we want to be a part of it.

And my mom like, I don't know y'all, he's this teenage girl, like I've never seen y'all before.

I don't know what your motives are.

And, but they kept coming back.

They kept bringing stuff, doing stuff.

And my great aunt was such a woman of faith.

She would come and she wanted to anoint my head with olive oil and pray for me.

And my mom was like, I don't even know what this lady was doing.

But she seemed like a Christian.

And they just kept coming back until the point where my mom trusted them.

And eventually she let me go out and stay with them for a night and then for a weekend.

And then I grew up actually out with my great aunt and uncle.

They practically raised me in my formative years.

But every day that lady, my great aunt Georgia and uncle, it was Georgia and Germany or Germany and Georgia, but I call him uncle Jim and aunt Georgia.

And every day aunt Georgia would I melt my head with olive oil.

She put a cross right here.

She'd take a little cap full.

She's a here baby, take this.

I take olive oil and then she pour another cap full and put it in my head.

So I'm all greased up.

Every single day she was praying for me to take me to church, have me read scriptures.

I've memorized them and then I'd say them on Sundays.

That's the environment I grew up.

So by the time I was 11 years old, I knew who God was or I knew who God is 'cause he never was, he always is.

I am that I am.

And I stepped out, man, and I said, I want to accept Christ into my life at about 11 or 12 years old.

Okay.

And I still now I'm back at home more because I'm in school.

Growing up still with my mom and my two younger sisters.

But I had a brother and sister that passed away a twin.

So he had five.

Okay.

But three of us survived.

And I'm the oldest.

Grew up in that environment, impoverished, living in projects, seeing my mom trying to find me a father.

These some of them were verbally abusive.

Some of them was physically abusive.

And I'm watching that.

And then I go in the country, out in the woods.

I mean, backwards, and I'm going to church.

And then I come home, and I'm in this single-parent home, and hear arguing, and this and that craziness.

But then I go-- so it was-- Wow.

It's two different worlds all the time.

Yeah, bro.

Yeah.

And so that's how I grew up.

But then at like 11 or 12, when I invited Christ into my heart, I'm like, man, I'm doing this.

And guess where I did it?

At my dad's church.

Oh, interesting.

With my grandmother.

But she-- and my granddad had passed away, but my grandmother never acknowledged me.

There were people that would see me and go, You look like you like those Phillips.

And I go, yeah, I do.

But they never acknowledged me.

She never accepted me into the family or up until that time.

And it was hurtful.

And my mother would tell me, they don't want you around them.

Why are you going down there?

But it wasn't for them.

It was for me.

And that's why I accepted Christ.

So I did that for about four or five years.

I get to high school.

I'm athletic.

I'm all this.

And God gave me this gift and this body, man.

So I was athletic.

I would hear older men say, hey, if you can keep Fred's off drugs out the street, he might make it to somewhere.

If you can keep him out the streets, keep him off of drugs.

So they saw the talent.

And then at about 14 years old, man, I got back out in the streets, bro.

And I stayed there until my rookie year in the pros.

No kidding.

Yeah, man.

I was running, Brian.

I was running from that.

Yeah, tell me, when you're saying in the streets, exactly what's that mean on the ground, so to speak?

Man, you're pressing me, man.

You just-- tell me what that mean.

I mean, I was in the streets, bro.

No, were you standing beside the ref?

I mean, is that partying?

Or is that just spiritually you're distant?

or is that like I'm doing, you know, I'm doing-- - You're not gonna let me get off easy, like bro, I wanna know-- - You say as much or as little as you wanna say, but I don't get the sense that you're necessarily one who has to be keeping a whole lot of stuff under wraps, so.

You're good, bro, okay, okay.

So what do I mean when you say the streets, bro?

Elaborate on that.

But no, I was out, I was partying, girls, I didn't do any heavy drugs, but I smoked enough marijuana to last me for a lifetime.

I tell people I smoked probably 100 acres by myself.

[Laughter]

Keeping somebody in business.

Yeah, yeah, I keep somebody in business. But I never bought any, because I had a reputation.

I let my boy, "Hey, you gotta buy it." Because I'm Fred Stokes, I can't buy it.

I like that's a real fine line you got right there.

At least I had some morals.

I feel good. I might be smoking it, but as long as I'm not buying it.

I'm above that.

I'm not going to lower my standards.

But I did marijuana.

And here's the thing, if you remember, there was a guy by the name of Len Bias.

Len Bias got drafted by the Boston Celtics, first pick of the NBA.

And Len, after he got drafted, he holds up the number one shirt with the Boston Celtics.

He goes back that night and he parties and somebody says that's the first time he ever did cocaine.

Some people say he had done it before, who knows?

But that night, he died.

I'm a few years younger than Leon Bias, and I remember being in a room with some guys at a table almost like this, where it was a round table.

And Brian, I'm telling you, I don't know where it came from.

I knew I was smoking marijuana, obviously, drinking, I was drinking a Belixtir, whatever you put, drink, let's drink, what is it?

I don't know, it's alcohol, let's drink it.

But not to the level of cocaine, right?

And so all of a sudden I look and it's on the table.

I don't know where it came from, but the guy was older, a few years older than me.

Actually, I was the youngest guy in the room.

These were with other players or just friends?

Other friends that I was hanging out with.

And so next thing I know, I'm like, dude, that looks like cocaine, white powdery substance.

It's on a glass.

He's cutting it up.

And I'm like, oh, man.

And I've been drinking.

I'm thinking, OK, what am I going to do?

Then I start thinking about Liam Bias.

And I always say this.

There's another program that I do some partnership with and travel and speak for them.

But I said Liam Bias' death saved my life because when he did it, it confirmed it.

That's cocaine.

He passes the tray to the next guy sitting here.

He looks at it.

He does his thing.

I'm like, shoot.

I'm third.

And then there's a guy sitting here.

So I'm like, man, what am I going to do?

What am I going to do?

And all of a sudden, man, the first thing-- I was just like I was drunk as all I do.

I was like, bro, man, I'm just too-- I'm way-- man, ah, bro, I mean, I'm-- and the guy sitting here, he takes it and he slides it past me.

He's like, pray don't worry about it, bro.

And he passed it, and I'm like, yeah, man, I'm good, bro.

I'm just like-- but I was upset with-- because this guy was close to my friend and afterwards, like, dude, why did you put me in that situation?

And I was upset.

But each one of those guys, Brian, went to crack cocaine.

They went to the next level.

And I always think, what if I would have done regular cocaine and then still allow me to make it to the NFL, making a little bit more-- now, I only made $35,000 my first year.

Back in those days, they ain't making-- they're making generational money now.

But I thought, what if I would have had that habit going to the NFL?

It would have been over.

But that was my first year in college.

And that really-- Because now-- OK, I was going to ask.

That was the first year in college.

Now, remember, from 14-- because from 11 till about 14 or 15, I'm in the church.

I'm doing my thing.

And then, boom, I'm getting out of church.

And God used my mother, because she's my mother.

She's like, you don't need to be going out in the church.

You got school.

So I tell people, as long as you're by the fire, you can get warm by the fire.

But you start dissing yourself, the fire's still burning.

Not the fire, it's you.

You're like, why am I so cold?

Because you distance yourself from the fire.

So I distanced myself from God and now I'm acting like the world.

So the streets you talk about.

So now from about 15 up until that point, my freshman year in college, now I begin to think about this stuff.

And I would hear that voice.

And sometime I'd be at a club, man, or a bar somewhere, or hanging out with guys and girls and everything would just go silent.

And it's like, you know this is not you, bro.

You know this ain't you.

And then all of a sudden it's go, "Hey, Fred!" It's going, "Poo-poo-poo." The music starts back and I'm partying again.

But that moment kind of brought me face to face with my mortality, if you will.

And then for the next three years or so, I go, "Man, I'm going to change." But once I get out in this environment, man, I just need to change my life.

And then God took me to LA.

I got drafted into the pros.

And I ran into that wall of saying, "I partied like a rock star.

I've got this." Now I wasn't doing cocaine.

By that time, I kind of wasn't messing with marijuana.

But I'm in a room in a hotel in LA, partying like a rock star, wake up the next morning, there's beer, alcohol, everything around, people are gone.

And dude, I looked around, saw this craziness and this chaos and I just dove into my pillow, man, and just screaming in the hotel.

Then I put the pillow in so I could just scream.

Ah, just screaming, like I'm gonna die.

Like I've been, like now, remember from that freshman year so that was four years ago, and now here I am now, and I said I was gonna change, dude, you're still the same.

Now you're in LA.

What are you going to do?

And so I was like, God, I need you.

And I'm crying out.

And of course, God, in his love for us, he answered my prayer.

Man, I went back home to Georgia right before training camp.

And I committed my life to Christ, man, came back.

I call him my prodigal son.

I saw my sin.

I knew I was in sin.

I knew I was going to hell if I kept going that way.

And I'm like, God, here I am.

I'm all yours.

And from that day to this one, bro, I've been running.

Wow.

So that's a powerful turnaround story.

you know, somebody who might be listening right now, those words that you shared, "That's not you, that's not you," I think ultimately the Holy Spirit, and you know in John chapter 16 it says, Jesus says, the Holy Spirit's trying to reach out and convict non-Christians too. So the Holy Spirit lives within a person who's given their life to Christ, but the Holy Spirit's work is not limited to two Christians. And so I think anybody who's listening right now, you know, I just, when I heard you say that, "It's not you," what I just felt like the Lord was pressing on my heart as somebody listening is hearing that this isn't you right now, whatever they're doing. And that is the Holy Spirit trying to get their attention and invite them into a moment like you're talking about where they say, "I've got to make a change." Now when you had that moment where you're like, "I've got to give my life to Christ.

It's time to set the ship straight." How did you alter your kind of life patterns and how you're doing things? I've heard lots of different stories from players. I mean, there's some going on and there's some crazy stuff going on. And I get the sense from the way players talk that it's almost like the faith culture has never been stronger than it is right now.

And it was present when you were playing. I don't know if it was as strong as it is now or not, but how did you make that transition? I know there was some time where you're back at home because of the football, the strike at the time, but you come back to LA. I mean, we're talking about LA. This is not, you know, this is not, I don't know, Milwaukee or something.

How did you to be living and not falling back into old patterns?

Man, that's a great question.

I started doing things different.

And yeah, I was just talking to some guys today about that.

And I had some moments where I was still trying to see how close I can get to the edge without falling off.

I still wanted to be a part of the party, if you will, but not party.

And so I had an incident where I was at a-- back in the day, they do things different now because of social media and cameras and all.

But back when I was playing, you didn't have an iPhone.

You said, hey, didn't I see you at the club last night?

I'd be like, no, no, don't worry about me, bro.

I'd be like, dude, and that's it.

And you'd be like, and if you did, I didn't buy it.

I didn't buy it, yeah.

That's right.

But now it's like, hey, bro, is that you?

So back then, I'm at a bar, but they were a sports bar.

And you can get free drinks and hang out because they enjoyed having the LA Rams there, the sports guys and people there.

And it was more the culture.

It wasn't like people trying to take pictures so they can blow up and all this.

They just-- hey, we're hanging out.

Brian's the quarterback of the team.

Hey, Brian, what's up, man?

We just hung out.

And nobody said anything about it.

It wasn't odd.

And I'm at a sports bar, and I ran into a situation and was confronted with some females.

And I was tested, because that's where I operated at, that style.

And I went, dude, I almost fell.

I mean, I was nervous.

And I went back to the hotel room, went back to my place.

And I'm like, you're playing.

Either you're going to do this or you're not, right?

And if you keep playing with fire, you're going to get burned.

And the devil doesn't care about you.

He will kill you and go to the next one.

And so I really had to-- it's like not making-- I had to make a 180, right?

It's like if you're going east, what it looks like in real time, if you're going eastbound on the interstate, OK, I need to be going westbound.

I don't need to be going eastbound backwards.

You're still going eastbound.

You're just driving backwards.

No, I need to go turn my car around and go west.

Or if you're going north, you need to turn around.

So that's how I was a complete 180.

And I began to hang out with guys who had that same mentality.

And so when I left LA, I stayed there two years in that environment.

And LA, to your other point, yes, God is God.

He's always been God.

The faith of those players was just as strong back then.

We see it more.

It's just like the news.

You had to get the newspaper back in the day, the Sunday morning news or the sports news.

During the week, you didn't get any news.

National news, unless it was real something tragic, you didn't see it.

Now you can open it up every day.

Oh, it's Afghanistan.

Oh, that's going on in Puerto Rico.

Or this is going on in Canada.

You can see it every day.

So yes, the faith was still strong.

I remember even after games, guys would get together from other teams, the two different teams.

And we would get to the 50-yard line, and we would hold hands and pray.

Now here's the thing.

The camera wouldn't show that.

We were doing it.

But the way the culture was at the time, the camera might show it.

And even if they're interviewing somebody, If you look at some of those old films, they pan past that group.

But all we holding hands, hey, Brian, this one.

Hey, man, tell your wife, man, let's get together this off season, man.

God bless you, man.

Y'all have a safe trip.

Whether we won or lost, we gone.

So the faith was still as strong.

It just wasn't as prevalent and noticeable as it is now.

But that's what I had to do.

I had to, first of all, put myself in a different camp.

And that camp was guys who thinking like I am, so that we're not saying, hey, man, let's go to a club.

Nah, bro, I'm not going to a club, man.

Oh, Fred, come on, bro.

We're not going to do anything.

like, "Nah, bro, you and I, hey, we're gonna hang out, have just as much fun, but we don't have to do it in the club." - Yeah, so good.

That's not my ministry, I don't have a club ministry.

Well, the thing is, I think for most people that are trying to make changes, and even if it's not like, oh, I'm living in this way that I know is not honoring to Christ, if we're going to live at the level that we wanna live, we gotta surround ourselves with people of that level and beyond.

sometime, and I have to look up the research on this, but there was this idea that when it comes to financial things, that there's, it's something like, this is a true thing that I'm going to probably butcher when I say it, but your net worth or whatever can be measured by the average of your X number of closest friends. And there's something about this idea of how we think, how we view life, et cetera, that is deeply shaped by who we spend our time with.

And I just think, you know, if somebody's struggling, you got to get around people who are strong and not struggling. But even for those who are not having these big struggles, they're not saying, "Oh, I'm going to clubs all the time." If you want to live at God's best for you, you got to be around people who are getting after it.

That's a great point. Even in the church, I say this out loud, and I believe this personally, I don't hang around and associate and lock myself into people who are negative-minded thinking people.

I want to be around faith builders like you. I heard the story just a little bit of brief about this building. I want to hear more because that's the way I am.

I'm not just naming and claiming God, but I'm like, "God, you said this. I believe this, that I can. You have cattle on a thousand hills." I want to be around the Brian's of the world who say, "Man, how did...

Fred, let me tell you something, bro. This is what I did.

I did this in high school. I did the one year I played in high school. I did this to go out to party.

I asked a guy who was older, he was a senior, I'm a freshman, I said, hey man, how'd you start going out to clubs?

He said, I asked my mom this, she told me to do this, I did this, this, and this, and I honored what I told her.

I was like, is that all?

He said, yeah, I just honored what I told my mom.

I was like, I can do that.

Did the same thing, my mom let me start going out.

I get to football, I'm with some guys, I'm like, man, how do you play in the NFL?

This game is crazy.

He was like, hey, Fred, you do this, this is what I do.

Hey, man, I went to the Pro Bowl, we did this.

OK, I want to do that.

Same thing in my faith walk.

Brian, man, how do you get this?

Like, Fred, man, I'm walking with God every day.

I'm believing God's word.

He says, he says, and a couple of times he said, let it be done according to your faith.

Okay, I wanna talk to those guys about faith.

Mindset, it's like, so as a man thinketh, so is he.

That's who I wanna be around.

So not just in the world and parting, but to your point there, Brian, it's that people you're hanging around and that, you said, what'd you say, the cumulative value of your-- - Yeah, yeah, the average kind of net worth-- - Yeah, I believe that. - As I understand, yeah.

And I think that translates to things more than money.

Yes sir.

It's like you're saying, how you view life.

When you think about how you have, and let's even talk about even contemporary on this question.

When you're just living your daily life now, how do you, and I'll say post NFL, so long run here.

How do you stay close to Jesus?

How do you keep your fire burning hot?

I say that because I do think jobs like the NFL and other jobs that have these super high intensity moments, it's a battle.

I mean, it can be different than the kind of work other people do.

But when you step out of that world, how do you still stay locked in and growing spiritually?

What are your core disciplines?

I'm hearing, like picking up some Bible reading, what's that look like?

And some community, anything else that you're doing to stay strong spiritually?

Yes, another good question, because in the sports world, what my mindset was is I know that I've got training camp coming, right?

after the offseason, we get a booklet, like a weekly, monthly calendar.

You're checking out those X's.

OK, I've got this many days to work out.

And training camp's coming, or mini camp earlier.

And then these different camps.

I know that Brian is working out.

You're my teammate, right?

So I know you're working out.

Because we talk-- we not even live in the same hometown.

But I don't want to be the guy who is the weak link.

I don't want to get to training camp, and Brian's looking at me like, dang, Fred, you didn't work out.

And then my teammate-- because you got to-- There was a test that we had to have to pass, either on the treadmill or on the football field, that you did a test, show what you conditioned and what you did in the offseason.

So I was that guy that didn't want to be the guy saying, dang, bro, you letting us down.

You didn't work out.

Now from your question with the spiritual part of it, what has worked for me and what I tell people is, I use two terms.

Take possession of your day.

At Christmas, kids want to get a present.

But guess what? We get a present every day.

Women open their presents slow.

They keeping the bowl, they keeping the wrapping, the tape, I don't know.

Men is like, "Bro, take this thing off.

Hey, save that paper." I had it during Christmas this past year.

One of my brother, my son's sister-in-law, she's saving the little, the white paper that's in there.

No, I use that.

Oh, the tissue paper.

The tissue paper.

I'm like, "What?" So that's women.

But in life, to your point, it's like, "Frayer, how do you do it?" So I'm like take possession of your day.

And so every day I get a present from God and I don't wanna rip it open.

So the first thing I do, man, I'll get beside my bed.

I don't look at texts, I don't look at emails, I don't answer the phone, I don't look at the news.

I don't invite anything in my day except God because he just gave me a present.

I woke up, you can get out, get up, but you can't wake yourself up.

Man, what time you wake up?

Whatever time God, but you can get out of the bed if you physically capable of doing it with all the extremities, But you can't wake yourself up, right?

So that present, I get up, thank you, Father, and I go through that process.

I have water that I keep beside the bed.

And so I spend those first few minutes opening my present slowly, and I'm grateful for that.

And it allows me to calm down because now I invite the text in, I invite the email in.

Now I invite you in, I got a foundation.

Like this building is beautiful, but it can't stand no stronger than this foundation, right?

So that's my foundation.

The other thing I talk about is my lanai time, right?

I live in Florida, so wherever you live at in part of the country, I live, now, in Georgia, we call it the back porch.

In Florida, for some crazy reason, it's the lanai.

So when I told my friends I was on the lanai, they were like, "Where?" I was like, "Bro, I'm on the back porch." It was like, "Oh, okay." - That's what people in Florida call it across the border, that's what you call it.

No, that's what they call it.

Florida, if you're on the back, it's the lanai.

Okay, I never heard that.

See what I'm saying?

But if I tell you I was on the back porch, you'd be like, "Oh, bro, I know exactly And so what I mean is, my la-night time, I'm using that word now because I live in Florida, but my la-night time when I lived in Georgia was being on the back of a horse.

Man, I can get on my horse and ride for hours.

It was my la-night time.

It was my, let's say therapy, it was my time to be refreshed, revived, and renewed.

It was my time again, and a lot of times it happened in the evening, to just be grateful to God, man.

And so wherever you do, there are people who, they get up in the morning, they look at all that stuff, and now they want to pray to God and say, "Lord, you can't think when you just got an email saying, 'Hey, please call Susan. Hey, we got the stock market is going crazy. Hey, this is it.'" And you're like, "Father, it's like, okay, Lord, dang, I got to... It's impossible, bro." Yeah.

And that's the thing I think about Romans 12 where Paul says, "We need to renew our minds." And that, the management of your mind is such a big deal. And I think that so much of the game is thinking the right thoughts, having your mind renewed by truth, watching when you got lies coming in that aren't accurate, aren't true to reality, aren't true to God's word, saying, "Nope, I'm gonna reject that.

"I'm claiming something that's right and true "and life-giving." So I love that example.

But you can't do that, Brian.

Like they will, if your roof is, if you have a leak in your roof, right, even in this church, you can have service here and they can repair the roof, right?

If you have problems with the windows, they need, you wanna get dual pane windows or some structure, they can change the windows, buildings fine, but if you have a foundational issue, they'll condemn this building because it's not safe. So if that's for a building, what about us as people? Our foundation is cracked, but we got all this good look, I got the money, I got the house, I got the dog, but I look good, but your foundation is jacked up.

And to your point about peace, man, so I'm big on mindset. I talk a lot about that, I believe that, because if my mind is right and stayed on God, then I'm good. And I try to guard that with everything in my power, man. My wife knows that too.

Well, on that foundation point, obviously, as you think about Jesus saying, like, "Hey, the house gets blown down when it's built on sand," or this or that. You put it on solid ground and the storm comes and you're still standing. I think that's a great transition to a question I was going to ask you about mental health. Thankfully, I think now it's much safer to talk about mental health than it used to be. It used to be, you know, you'd kind of like be a pariah if you talked about, you know, what was going on with some kind of mental health battle, especially for guys, but in general. Now it's safer, but you went through while you were playing, while you're on the big stage, some pretty significant mental health challenges. Help me understand what they were and then what got you there.

I mean, you're Fred Stokes. You know, how'd that happen?

So, I'm going to change the wording, right? Mental health is real.

It is real, it is a real issue, it is a real thing, and there are people who need to take medicine because there's a serious chemical imbalance.

But mental health has been blown out of proportion, right?

They...

So, when you say my mental health, I've talked to therapists or a counselor, they go, "Fred, did you have some mental health issues before?" I'm like, "I didn't have any mental health." Right?

Had emotional issues.

So LINT Brother, we talk about life I never tell, but our core focus is empowering men to be emotionally free, not emotionless.

So we want you to tap into your emotions, but emotionally free.

So what does that look like?

That looks like, I've got some financial problems.

Pastor Brian, if you can help me with these financial problems, I can go to bed at night.

Right?

I've got some relational problems.

Pastor Brian, if you can counsel me and my wife and help us get our relationship together, I'll be good.

Pastor Brian, I've got a couple of kids that, man, my daughter's out, I think she's pregnant, my son, he's on drugs.

Hey, if you can help me with those kids and help me with those issues, I'll be fine." That's not mental health.

That's emotional.

That's the thing that we say in our LINT Brother world.

We say things that keep you up at night or keep you preoccupied during the day.

And so back to the point where I was, my emotional health was jacked up because my circle of guys was, "Rawr, rawr, let's go baby." They're driving in nice cars, they're living in a nice home.

I had three houses.

I had my mom's house in Georgia, I had my house in Virginia, and I had a house in LA And I had cars, I had stuff, I had money.

The year that this happened, I think that fiscal year, I think I made like $2.2 million.

Of course, guys won't even play for that these days.

They'll be like, you said what now?

Click.

He hung up.

Like, what you want me to do for $2 million?

Why don't you play football?

That ain't happening.

But back then, that was a lot of money.

So I had that at my reach.

But I had some issues going on in my life that I was dealing with, personal issues, and I'm like, bro, why do I keep, remember I didn't know my dad.

I remember early on I told you, I didn't have a relationship with my dad.

So there was a lot of things that are father wounds, mother wounds, that if we can get back to our father, we can find out why do I think this way?

Why do I act this way?

Why do I approach life this way?

Why do I deal with women this way?

Oh, dad did that.

But dad never talked to me.

My dad never told me he loved me.

My dad never told me he was proud of me.

So is that his fault?

No, your granddaddy never told you that.

You know what I'm saying?

So it was that kind of stuff.

So here I'm dealing with all these emotions.

And probably was a play away from winning MVP of the Super Bowl.

At least my name was mentioned as a potential MVP.

Now that's big.

Fred Stokes MVP of the Super Bowl.

And so I'm dealing with all this stuff.

Had a great year, the first year that I resigned with LA.

I left Washington, go back to LA.

Had probably the best year of my career.

And then here I am in the spring of '94, and the enemy is telling me, you're a fraud, man.

You're a hypocrite.

You've just been on TV, you're speaking at churches and schools and doing all this stuff.

But bro, you don't have your life together. Like if people knew who you really, if they know who you really are, little, not just regular friar, but little freaky friar, bro, your minister would be shocked. Oh shoot. Hey, why don't you commit suicide? But see, that wasn't the first thing.

That's not the first thing the enemy tells you. This little, you know that little, it's a wooden thing, Brian, with the little mallets, got the little rubber, you tenderize the meat with it.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, meat turn.

The enemy does you that way.

He tells you, he beats you up.

He tells you how not good you are, and you're not this, and you're not that, and you know that, and he gets you all low.

And then when he gets you all tenderized up, he goes, "Hey, why don't you leave your family, man?

Hey, why don't you quit the ministry, man?" He doesn't tell you that initially 'cause you're too strong.

You can't cook that steak right now, it ain't tenderized.

So he has to get you all tenderized up.

He goes, "Fred, why don't you commit suicide, bro?" And I'm like, now I'm crying.

I take my left foot, I put it out the window of this brand new Jeep I'm driving.

And I'm like, you're going to see your wife won't know.

Because she said, now, if she finds out, she's going to leave you.

Remember the last time this happened?

She's going to leave you, bro.

She's going to go back to Georgia.

We're in LA.

And people are going to go, why are you-- because she's from Georgia as well.

So it's why you're here.

Oh, I'm here because-- oh, y'all think Fred is all this?

And all this narrative is going through my brain.

And it's like, yeah, man.

I'm going to do it.

And I'm driving about 85 miles an hour, my left foot out the window.

And I'm just rolling.

I can't even see the road hardly.

And I know I'm going to go through this intersection and hit this pole on my way back from training camp.

Our team had gone to play the Green Bay Packers, but here I am a veteran.

I was hurt.

And so I went to get treatment.

I didn't need to go because I'm on the team anyway.

So yeah, Fred, you just stay behind.

We're good.

It's training camp.

Don't worry about it.

OK, good.

And then I bump my head in stupidity, right?

And I'm thinking, man, I got this.

But there's no goddess of physical strength.

He says, "Not by might nor by power, but by my spirit," says the Lord.

So you can willpower all you want to.

You can say all the Hail Marys.

You can say all the, "I won't do it.

I won't do it." Okay.

The devil's like, "Yeah, bro, keep saying that.

As soon as you get through, get up from there.

Come on, take this, do that, say that, go here." And now it's just by a miracle that I didn't do it.

God stopped me.

I didn't call anybody.

I didn't know anything about LINT Brother.

Having a man that close to me in my life is like, we say is the lint is getting out in the pocket of your life because lint is in the darkest place of your pocket.

It's hidden.

You can take out your money, your keys, your phone, whatever you got in your pocket.

And you go, yeah, man, I'm empty.

You go, yeah, but turn them inside out.

What do you mean, turn my pockets inside out?

Yeah, let me see that pocket.

Oh, that's where the lint is.

It's in the darkest place of those pockets.

And that part is what drive me in over the cliff.

And God stops me.

And I'm right at the intersection.

Nobody's coming.

It was like the end of the world.

This busy intersection, nobody's coming?

This is in the spring?

I'm like-- and when I got there, bro, after I came to my senses, I was like screaming, I want to live.

I want to live.

I want to live.

God, I don't care if my wife leaves me.

I don't care if I have any money in the bank.

I don't care if the team fires me.

God, I want to live.

And then somebody blew behind me a something bomb, and I pull on, and it was the toughest part of me to tell my wife, man, that, Ray, you married an imperfect man.

I didn't tell her as soon as I got home, because I was trying to battle with myself, bro.

And I'm like, OK.

I said, babe, before I go back to training camp tomorrow, I need to talk to you.

Didn't sleep much that night.

Next day, I sat there after dinner, after we ate breakfast or whatever.

And I sat there and I said, I don't want my dad, babe.

You know that.

I've got some issues.

And she's looking at me.

Before, she's crying.

She's hitting me, beating me up.

You're an idiot.

You're an idiot.

She's like this.

And I'm talking to her, but I'm thinking, OK, she's too calm.

She's probably got the gun.

She's probably going to kill me when I finish.

I mean, seriously, I'm thinking this, right?

Because she's never done this before.

And she told me she's going to leave me.

That's what the enemy said, too, which he's the father of lies.

And he sticks to that, right?

So he lied.

We know that.

But he makes it so believable.

And so I'm talking to her.

She's not saying a word.

And when I finish talking to her, I said, hey, you can go and leave.

I'll buy you a ticket tonight for you and the two boys, Lance and Landon, our two oldest boys.

I said, I'm going to be the best dad.

I'll pay child-- going through that process.

And I said, I'll buy you a ticket tonight or tomorrow.

Whenever you want to leave, you can leave before I get back.

I'm fine.

She's staring at me.

And then she reaches for me.

And I'm thinking, I'm like, she getting ready to stab me.

You know, something, bro.

I was like, my mind was just going-- and she puts her hand on my shoulder, and she says, can I pray for you?

Wow.

Dude, I fell apart.

I'm crying.

She's praying.

She finished praying and she leaves.

She goes upstairs or somewhere, I don't know.

And I'm sitting there like, what in the heck just happened?

Like, that's not what the enemy told me, but he's a liar.

He's the father of lies.

So if you hear, if he tells you it's raining outside and you haven't seen it, if it comes from the devil, that's the source, you say, who told you it's raining outside?

Well, it's raining and who told you?

Well, Satan told me, it's a lie.

Yeah, but it sounded like I hear rain.

Who told you?

Satan told me, it's a lie.

Yeah, but don't it in the cool, it's supposed to be right.

Who told you?

Yeah.

That's why God told Adam, who told you that?

Who told you you were naked?

I spend every day with you in the cool of the day.

I never told you you were naked.

Where'd you get that from?

Boom.

And so I leave and go back to training camp, man.

And Regina and I, my wife's Regina, we talked about this several months ago, Brian, and neither one of us know, can remember how we walked through that year reconciliation.

Like, like we don't remember that. We left after that year. The next year we became St. Louis Rams and December the 22nd, 1995, my third son Luke was born. Guess what anyone was trying to do? He was trying to kill my generation. Luke just turned 29 years old, bro. And I used to, I used to can tell that story with a straight face because it would jack me up because I knew it wasn't just about me. And you've got amazing place here and I just got here, man, but it's It's bigger than you and I.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And sorry to be so detailed about it.

No, it's so good.

Well, I think it's really good for-- it's a note of hope to say, you got to that place.

I mean, that's a dark place when you're thinking about, I need to end it right now.

And it's just a good note of hope for anybody right now who's either in a place where they're feeling like their marriage is over, their struggle against an addiction is over, their-- I mean, people all the time hit huge roadblocks with their business and they think my career's over and it doesn't have to be that way.

I mean, there's a future, there's hope and you guys navigated that.

And I hear you saying, "Hey, we don't even remember how we did it exactly." But you know, and that's cool.

But I think that at the end of the day, you knew you had to make some changes and she was willing to extend grace in that moment and pray for you and love you.

And somehow with the grace of God and a wife that was gonna walk with you through it.

Like you got-- I know I was going to commit suicide.

Oh, that was-- So what-- oh, because you were just telling her your darkness at that point.

I was just telling my darkness.

Not about the-- I never told her I was getting ready to commit suicide.

I got you.

Never told her.

So Holy Spirit intervened on my behalf and her.

And here's the thing about mental health.

And I said it earlier about emotional health.

Yeah.

It's statistics that over 60% of men, all deaths by suicide, out of all deaths by suicide, 80% are committed by men.

80%.

with women. So out of all the deaths by suicide, men are 80%. Out of that 80%, over 60-something percent of men that commit suicide have no known mental health issue at the time of death.

So mental health or emotional health. You see what I'm saying?

So pastors and leaders, over 50-something percent of pastors and leaders last year in 2024 either contemplating or quit the ministry because of conflict, loneliness, or there's one other, there's like three different quit or thought about quitting.

So what do you say?

I need somebody I can talk to, bro.

I need to be able to get down to the lint in the pocket of my life.

'Cause you think, oh man, if I was a senior pastor, man, I would have no problems.

Yeah, there's no such thing as no problems.

(both laughing)

We've got, you know, to me, I've got some friends around me that are not just good friends, but I also really appreciate friends who know what it's like to lead.

Come on now.

And I just feel like, you know, there's, In general, having good friends is great by itself, but I love talking with people who have been in the trenches.

I'm about to fly out to California in a couple of weeks because there's a group of us pastors, senior pastors, and specifically pastors of larger churches, 'cause that's a whole different beast by itself, that we're gonna just get together and be able to talk, encourage each other, pray for each other, and man, I'm excited for that.

I mean, that's that value in having a friendship like that.

Do you know, when you think about father wounds and some of the, in a sense, some of the scripts and some of the baggage that you had from growing up that you didn't fully even appreciate.

Did you, was there an intentional step you took to get, to kind of right the ship mentally on some of those maps?

Or what, how did that play out?

Like you said, oh man, I've got some wounds and some patterns from growing up, but was there a process per se or not?

God walked me through it.

Because the space that I'm in now with men, he walked me through it.

At our other church, I'm at a different church now, But I was at this other church pastored by my former teammate, Tim Johnson.

And I was leading the men's ministry there.

And we were excited if we had 20 guys show up for breakfast on a Saturday.

We were like, woo, we got 20 guys.

Now, we were a new church plant.

So it wasn't like we had 1,000 people.

But as I began to talk to the men based off of my life experience, to your question, old buddy, I realized, I said, guys, you got to have another guy that you're talking to who knows you.

I'm not talking about know you a Christian.

I'm not talking about you-- It's like when you talk to somebody and they call you Pastor Brian, hey Pastor Brian, it puts you in a different position.

'Cause now I'm their pastor, they're not just saying, hey Brian, can you, or somebody from your hometown, they might not even call you Brian, they may call you other names.

I've got a friend of mine, he said, depending on what I hear somebody call me, I know where they know me from.

(laughing)

Because his regular name is what he uses today.

But to that point, the issue is, it's having somebody that I can talk to where I don't have to put on airs.

I don't have to minister to you.

So I'm telling guys that, right, in our other church.

And I'm just growing.

Our ministry is growing.

The men are growing.

They're getting more involved.

Because even though our senior pastor is a great guy, Tim's a great guy, but Tim was not.

He preached differently.

He talked different to the guys he's seen.

I was just one of the guys.

I wasn't even a pastor at the time.

I was just a men's leader.

And I just talk different.

and you'll see tonight when I ever get an opportunity to speak, when I get on that platform, man, I say this about men.

In sports, we can pat you on the butt, "Let's go, Brian, baby, let's get this thing, man, we're gonna roll.

Amen, let's do one more, baby, woo!" And it jacks us up, man, it gets us fired up.

But you challenge me in church, it's like, "Man, he told me I need to be..." We're so sensitive and fragile in church.

But in the streets, we can dog each other out and talk trash, and we'll talk trash back to you, but you talk trash to a guy in church, it's like, "Hey Pastor Brian, what happened to Joe?" Yeah man, I told Joe I wanna see him more in church and he left.

(laughing)

I just said I wanna see him more in church, he left.

That's the issue that for me, when it comes to men in ministry, and like you said, you're going to talk to some guys who are at the same level, right?

I'm not asking you to talk to the men that you lead or you gotta get in and live brother with them.

You need to have other men, you know what I'm saying?

But here's what Jesus did.

Jesus had a bunch of disciples.

He narrowed it down to 12, chose one who we know Judas, but he chose him anyway.

And then he says, you know what?

I'm gonna pick three of you guys out.

And to me, we use it as our LINT Brother modern, Peter, James, and John.

He said, "Hey guys, I'm getting ready to go over here.

"Y'all roll with me." And the other disciples was like, "Man, why did you take those guys?" You know, you know, theologically, we don't know.

We don't know why he chose them.

Maybe it was 'cause some people say 'cause of their future ministry, but we don't know.

And then when he took him, some of those most trying times, the Mount of Transfiguration, right?

He took him when he healed the little girl.

He left the parents there, but he said, "Hey, can y'all excuse us?

"Hey, Peter, John, James, bro, y'all hang out with me.

"Y'all do this." Now, if Jesus did that, what make us think we as men roll by ourselves?

No, I'm good, man, I don't need nobody.

Right.

You know, you're reading my mail on what I'm preaching tomorrow at the men's conference right now.

I hope, I don't know how much is the, don't mention the Garden of Gethsemane, you're stealing my whole message if you do that.

But I'll tell you what, in all seriousness, the message I'm doing tomorrow, and I wish I know you gotta fly out.

So I'm gonna have to send you-- - Man, I told the guys, if I had driven, I would stay, 'cause that's why I love to drive.

Yeah, totally. - And be there so I can hang out more.

I'm gonna send you the message though, once we get down. - Okay, please do.

But you see Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.

He's with, he takes all the disciples, but then pulls Peter, James, and John, and for those who don't know what I'm talking about right now, it's the night before Jesus goes to the cross.

So he, and it says, well, so number one, here's my theory on Peter, James, and John.

Those guys on the one hand were the ones that Jesus had to correct the most.

James and John, the sons of thunder, "Do you want us to call down fire on this town?" You know, but they were bold.

They, I mean, the sons of thunder, that's a good nickname. Big play Stokes, good nickname, sons of thunder, I'm gonna take that, alright? So they got that, then you got Peter who was never afraid, I mean, Peter, get in Jesus' own face and try to correct him.

He's crazy. But they were, so on the one hand, Jesus had to correct them the most, on the other hand, I don't think you can argue they were the most bold and courageous and strong of the 12. So he goes off with those three and then it says he was, they could see he was deeply distressed and troubled, which tells me Jesus was not afraid to show his true emotions. He's let it all come out, right? And then I love this, I'm gonna skip some of the points in this message, I'm giving you a preview even though you're not gonna be here, alright? - Just in case I repeat it, be like, Fred don't have everything. - Yeah, when I started hearing these points one by one, I'm like, my man listened to me on this podcast and then took it all away.

No, we don't do that, we ain't gonna steal the thunder.

Praise leans on the Father for his strength, knows he can't do it on his own.

Praise the ultimate manly prayer, not my will but yours be done.

But then, here's the part I love.

This is the way, I've never seen this before and I can't wait to say it tomorrow.

I think that we got a problem sometimes, not just in the church but in the culture at large, of passive men who are not saying, I'm gonna get after it, all right?

Jesus, he senses in his spirit, it's time to go.

He says, the hour has come, rise, let's go. It says as he was saying that, the guys were coming toward him. He didn't, he was not getting up as a reaction to there they are. He sensed it's time to fight. I'm not waiting for the battle to come to me. I'm taking the battle to them.

And he says, all right, it's time to stand up. We're going to get after this right now. And I just think for what it means to be a man, I think what it means to, when you're talking about what it means to have men in your court, like we want to be guys who are getting honest, who know the lint in our pockets, but ultimately for an end goal of saying, it's time to get up and fight and be after what Jesus is supposed to have us after.

Let's rise, let's get up, let's not be passive and let's fight the good fight, you know?

So I just, anyway.

Dude, if I was not flying, I wouldn't be sitting 'cause I'm gonna be up, bro.

Dude, that's so strong.

I need you, I know, you have to be amen to me from Orlando, so.

Brian, dude, because we are so, that's what I was saying earlier, we're so fragile and so weak in church, bro.

When you challenge us a little bit, we upset.

Yeah.

Like, dude, let's go.

Yeah.

Women are dependent on us, the children, society is dependent on us 'cause they're trying to take over and tell us, hey, I feel like I'm a tree today, so call me tree.

You're not a tree, you're not a tree.

You're not a tree.

Well, you hurt my feelings, I wanna be a tree today.

You're a man, you're a woman.

Like, yeah, please send me that.

'Cause I'm a reader, man, I've got Kindle, I've got Audible books, I got my regular books, bro.

And I love listening to great messages.

Yeah, it's gonna be fun.

Matter of fact, I listened to one of your messages too.

I was like, "You're on fire." I'm doing my best with the Holy Spirit.

(laughing)

I'm trying.

He's like, "Hold on, let me check this brother, make sure he's good to go." Hey, let me ask you one last question before we're done.

I don't wanna get into all the details of it just 'cause of time.

You're in my business already, bro.

I know, as long as I'm digging.

No, bro, I don't wanna get in your business.

Man, it's too late for me.

(laughing)

So, any of us, no matter what we experience in life, no matter how successful we are, You already got at this, like, hey, in many ways as a church, we're blessed and as a leader, I'm blessed.

But all of us will have big time hardships.

And you had a time way back where you invested, you end up having a guy who was running this thing, who I don't know the details, but embezzled from you and some other, I don't know if it was all athlete investors, but you guys lost some serious money.

Here's my question.

We're all gonna get punched in the gut.

And there are gonna be times it's not fair.

We didn't do it, we didn't deserve it.

It just happened.

And that's part of the broken world we live in.

When it comes to overcoming setbacks and those punch in the gut moments, um, how did you get through that?

How would you encourage other folks who are going through moments like that to get through it?

Well, that's, that's a, that's a great question, Brian.

How did I get through that?

The very, very, very, very short answer is God.

But the real humanistic answer is it was tough as heck.

Because statistically speaking, in baseball, basketball, and football professionally, there's a number that I think it's three years, some months, and maybe three-- that after that, I think is in our profession, NFL, that guys either struggling, financially broke, or relationally have some issues, because a lot of guys get divorced, or they're struggling.

Within a certain number of years, I think it's like two or three years or something.

So I had a great agent who's a friend of mine now, Jack Rial out of Atlanta.

God blessed me with that guy, and he was a friend and became a friend.

And his goal was, hey, Fred, we're going to retire with money.

We're going to retire with money.

Hey, man, we're not going to be a statistic.

He was so adamant about that that one time he says, hey, Fred, hey, what I'm thinking, man, you tied the lot to the church, man.

I mean, you give a lot to the church.

And I knew where he was going.

He was like, man, we want to be here.

I'm looking at these numbers.

I'm like, yeah, go ahead.

Say what you want to say.

Yeah, if we can just pull back some of the ties, man, and just put that over, I'm like, Jack, figure out another way.

But I'm tithing to my church.

I'm giving offerings, so forget that.

So I retired with money.

The house that I built, it was over 5,000 square feet, had five bedrooms, five and a half baths, four car garage.

We had 100 acres of land.

The land was paid for.

I built a pond that was over five acres or more.

I paid for that like my last year in the NFL, had that dug.

And so I knew where I was going to live.

I lived on some property that my great uncle bought in 1946.

He deeded it to me for $1.

So you got the pond paid for, the lands paid for.

And then I paid for my house probably a half a million dollars.

So once I got the key, the house was mine.

And then that happened, where they embezzled over a million dollars.

I was in another situation where I lost about half a million dollars in a business deal.

And it was when I didn't have any more playing time.

Mark Brunel was involved in it.

He played longer.

Darrell Green got stuck up.

He played 20 years.

There were some other football players and some baseball players.

So it was other athletes.

And the president and some of those head guys went to prison over this deal.

But I was at the end of my rope.

I didn't have any more money coming in.

And plus, I made it.

And so there was a little pride.

And I believe that God had to reach in and do surgery and say, OK, Fred, you think you did this.

And I sat in my truck that day when I found out that I was at this point of this financial impasse.

And I was like, God, why did you bring me here?

I could have stayed in Virginia, had a 3,500 square foot house, living in a cul-de-sac.

I could have stayed there.

But then later, he let me see that, Brian.

He let me see that here I am now, I live in Orlando, Florida.

And we can talk about that later.

I know our time is spent.

But walking through that, I had other men that had money.

I had another friend of mine, he told me about what his father went through.

It's like what you're talking about, going with those senior pastors with larger church.

You got to put yourself around people who understand.

And also too, you got to put yourself around people who can give you spiritual advice.

I don't want to be around my cousin Jojo, who may be, you know, street guy and say, "Cuz, this is what we're going to do." Yeah, that sounds good, but that's not biblical.

I'm fighting, as they say, we're not fighting flesh and blood.

So I'd say, accomplish yourself around those people who can speak faith, who can speak life to you, because that's what you need.

I didn't need any more money.

So to round this up, I told my wife, I said, if I would have stayed in Georgia and I would have been making a million dollars a month, every month.

My faith wouldn't be as strong as it is, and my relationship with God wouldn't be as it is now, 'cause that's what he wants.

He don't want biblical scholars, he want a relationship.

So having gone through that, it's built my faith.

And so I say, whatever you're dealing with, whatever you're going through, and every man deals with it, on our webpage, and our statement of facts say, every man, no matter his position, status, or title, needs another man he can get down to that lint, right?

So it doesn't matter who you are.

It's not just athletes.

People try to excuse themselves, oh, that's just athletes.

Oh, it's just black guys, white guys, Hispanic guys.

No, it's every man.

And so I got through that tough situation with other men in my life that had gone through it, that had lost millions.

God put me around some big time millionaires that were men of God, Brian.

They were on fire.

I went to a weekend retreat with some men that-- I mean, they were like Bezos type guys.

They knew, but they were broken.

And it wasn't their money.

It was their ministry that got me through.

Do you feel like that-- you know, when it comes to bad things happening to us, I don't want to sit there and say on the one hand, oh, God did this or something.

But that being said, God does redeem all the difficult things to go through.

Do you feel like there was something that God really thought, man, I want to accomplish something in front of life through this setback that he needs to experience for the journey ahead?

I wouldn't be sitting here otherwise.

Is that right?

No.

How so?

Because I made it.

I had a goal of finishing strong and having money.

And I had money.

I had the house paid for, land paid for, a pond paid for.

Had four wheelers and horses, and we're homeschooling our kids.

Bro, I'm good.

I mean, if you wanted to come speak to your church, Brian, yeah, I'd come over there, man.

I'd go.

You go talk to some kids, I'll do it.

But now, man, I know I'm sitting here.

You and I are meeting.

You had to say yes to God at one point in your life.

I mean, yeah, I know you probably made a plate around or did one of that.

But you said, God, if you open that door, I'm going to go through it.

And then you went through it.

And then you've led other men and women through it.

And now you and I are sitting here doing this podcast.

And my prayer is that there are men and women out there, men more, that are listening to us and saying, man, I thank God for that podcast that Brian done.

But Brian had to say yes first.

So my life would be totally, totally, totally different had God not allowed.

And yes, people say, well, God calls this.

No, the devil calls it.

No, sometimes you just need to get to a remote turn that TV off. That ain't God, that's you. Turn the TV off. Hey, bro, turn your car around.

You don't need to hang around the people. Yeah, man, God allows some things, but then sometimes yeah, he does kind of put his hand on it, but he allowed that to happen. He didn't do it, he allowed it to happen. And once I realized that, my wife used to say, "Man, you was a bad investment." Yeah, but God allowed it because he knew where I needed to be, and that's being right here today.

Well, you know, the thing is, you talk to any successful people.

They have got incredible failure stories.

I mean, there is nobody out there, they may look like it's all polished, all put together, but you talk to them and they're proud of it.

Because, and honestly, part of how you get to big success in life is because you're willing to risk it and have failure.

Now, hopefully you're not doing stupid things.

You're not, you know, if you're smart, you're taking risks.

Some of them are gonna work, some of them not.

But that's part of it.

I think, you know, Pastor, way back in the day, you probably heard this phrase, And when I heard it the first time, I was younger and I did not appreciate the wisdom.

But he said that when it comes to any difficult thing, anything that's suffering, you got that choice.

Are you going to let it make you bitter or better?

And at the time I was like, you know, eye roll, you know, that's just sounds like such a cliche.

But that is funny.

That's stuck with me because every time we go through a difficulty, we can let, we can get stuck in that place.

We can get defeatist.

We can get bitter.

We can get angry.

we can feel like we're condemned, we'll never overcome, or we can say, God, how are you gonna help me grow through this?

And people have got story after story.

I've got stories of where God takes what you thought was like your greatest setback and he turns it into your biggest springboard.

But here, and from a spiritual side, he takes your misery and turn it into your ministry, right?

So there are men that I'm speaking to now that I can, because I was at the edge, right?

Yeah, you may say football, but no, I've been to the edge emotionally, not mentally, well, I meant mentally, emotional, so we can talk about it.

I talked to a guy three weeks ago, man. I had to go to his home. He's a business guy.

His wife's business. They got a beautiful big old home, and he was sitting beside his pool with a look on his face of, "I'm getting ready to jump." He was getting ready to commit suicide.

And because I've been there, and I'd walked with him before, but because I've been there, I can, and I was praying like crazy.

I sat there for minutes and didn't say anything because I didn't know what to say. I'm like, "God, you got to tell me what to say.

I don't want to mess this up, but I stayed with that guy for four hours.

And now I'm coaching him because I do what I call "Nant Brother Coaching," so we're coaching every week.

But that wouldn't have happened, Brian, had I not gone through that misery.

So you being here as a senior pastor, there are things that had God not allowed to happen in your life.

You'd be like, "Hey, Brian, I want you to pastor." You'd be like, "Yeah, appreciate you." Yeah.

Yeah, right on, God.

That's a good one, man.

So I think that's why it happens.

That's what happened to me.

That's what happened to anybody that's out there that's listening.

God is trying to, what he says, he says, God, this is one of my favorite, Jeremiah 29, 11.

He says, "For I know the plans that I have for you to give you hope and a future." And the enemy was trying to take away my hope, but the future was, is this, the men's ministry.

I was just wanting to do a little something with my money.

And now I don't care.

I mean, yeah, I have a fees and that kind of stuff, but I'll tell people sometimes, I said, "I'm not going there because I need the money." And I do, right?

'Cause where we've been, but I'm like, "If God tells me to go, these are my fees.

And if you have problems with that, I'm still praying.

God, tell me to go." And I've been somewhere where I've gone for less.

And then right after that, God superseded that 10 times.

Yeah.

So.

That's a good word.

And you have an amazing, let me tell you something, bro.

This place is on fire.

Yeah, I'm excited for you to be able to experience it, Tony, it's gonna be fun.

It's gonna be fun.

We're so thankful to have you here.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks for investing and being able to take some time to have this conversation because there'll be the guys that are here tonight, but there'll be a lot of guys that couldn't make it tonight and none of the ladies.

So I'm excited where your story can continue just to get out there and encourage folks and for God to use the words you just shared today to meet them and I'm expecting for tonight.

Thanks for making the trip.

Man, thank you for having me up here, bro.

And thank you for saying yes all those many years ago, bro, 'cause we're here.

Yeah, appreciate that, Fred.

You got it, man.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Fred Stokes.

I know I sure did.

I appreciated what Fred had to say about the value of having LINT Brothers, guys who are gonna know kind of the lint in our pockets and we're being transparent and real with.

We all need guys like that.

And so again, if you did enjoy, appreciate this podcast, please rate and review us.

That's such a big help.

This has been a production of Engedi Church and we've got more incredible conversations on the way.

And so until next time, just know you were made to advance.