00:00:00:00 - 00:00:32:01 Unknown Hello and welcome to The Amazing the show for acquisition, entrepreneur, search funders and whole co builders across the UK and Europe. Each week we dive into the real world story strategies and challenges behind buying and building assemblies. Whether you're searching for your first deal or running a growing group of companies, this is your space to learn, share and get inspired.

00:00:32:04 - 00:00:56:26 Unknown This week I'm joined by Rachel Murphy, CEO and founder of the Grafter, who has previously exited her two prior companies progressive and different, as well as helping deliver digital transformations for several public sector institutions and large corporations. And now is supporting health care professional services and says companies on their growth financing and exit journeys. So welcome Rachel Lovely to have you with us.

00:00:56:28 - 00:01:22:24 Unknown Hey, Gareth, thank you for the intro. I do sound more impressive than I think, but yeah, absolutely delighted to be here, My friend Keith Full Raff asked me. delighted. And looking forward to getting stuck into hearing more about your own journey and what you're doing to help others on is now just normally what we do at this point is dive into a little bit of news around the search and then acquisition entrepreneurs space.

00:01:22:24 - 00:01:45:06 Unknown And so it just to bring our listeners up to speed on what's happened this week, we've had a search fund launch in Switzerland this week, Hambro Capital, which is founded by Luca Hanni and seeks to acquire and operate one exceptional SMB in Switzerland or southern Germany. And parallel to that, we've also seen the launch of a new search find investor.

00:01:45:07 - 00:02:21:16 Unknown This is Search Rights Capital Partners out of the Netherlands, led by your spendthrifts Eric Rosen and Robert Doukas. They are backing acquisition entrepreneurs in the Dutch, German and Italian markets, which fantastic to see a new capital partner coming out of the Netherlands. So evolving space and we wish both searches and investors the best of success. So into our main feature for this week, you are about to be spoiled listeners and viewers by whistle stop Journey through the formidable Murphy's career.

00:02:21:19 - 00:02:52:16 Unknown Why don't you start us off with the inevitable journey to here? Kind of a question. Tell us a bit about your previous career and experience, if you don't mind. Yes, very happy to. So my background, Gareth, is I as you mentioned, I built and sold a couple of businesses and I if I'm totally honest, I think I've always been pretty unemployable and I'm very proud of that fact.

00:02:52:19 - 00:03:19:30 Unknown I you know, as I left school, I went contracting way before it was it was trendy to do that. And that really set the stall out for fit for my career. I didn't want a boss any more than than I do now. And I got very lucky and I worked very hard and have worked for a number of large corporates.

00:03:19:33 - 00:03:52:21 Unknown So I ran the services business for care. The construction company many years ago for Kiwi I.T reseller Outsourcer and then did as you mentioned, a number of large scale transformation roles, whether it was people process or tech across central government. So with CIO for Department of Education and then led patient facing transformation of the NHS and that involved launching the NHS app and NHS UK.

00:03:52:21 - 00:04:25:22 Unknown So the digital front door to consume impatient patient services. So big, big love affair with healthcare. Both companies that I've built and sold have been in healthcare to date and as I, I guess get get more current after I sold the last business in 2020, you know if you're healthcare consultancy in a pandemic doesn't actually get any better, although I'd like to caveat that I'm not responsible for COVID.

00:04:25:25 - 00:04:55:04 Unknown But you know, in all seriousness, you know, we we wrote probably an extra three quarters of a million that we probably wouldn't have done had it not been a pandemic. And we were going through a sale process at that time. So that's just a little bit of background. Yeah, today on on the graph. Thank you so much for sharing what you just did the the exit of different during the sort of early days of the pandemic.

00:04:55:06 - 00:05:15:19 Unknown Did that have a tangible impact on your sale value? I mean, at the moment, at that moment, I imagine there was a gold rush into healthcare and health tech. If you image deal when it was all kicking off, how did that affect you? So it went through the roof is the honest answer. I don't think we were quite at the the ultimate high.

00:05:15:26 - 00:05:39:23 Unknown I think that was probably 2021 because we sold right in the middle of the drama. I mean, we sold mid-late 2020 and but but there's no denying it helped because we wrote business. You know, we were building the national service for the UK for COVAX home testing. And that project came left field, as did as did a few others.

00:05:39:26 - 00:06:02:07 Unknown And so it definitely was a contributing factor in achieving a you know, we had an eight times multiple, which is is widely shared very wide. That shaped my social media but is in the public domain, I think is what normal people say. And that's that's always good. That's a nice, transparent process. But I think you sold to Panoply, right.

00:06:02:10 - 00:06:25:16 Unknown Who would have had to declare some stuff anyway? I imagine that's it. So it was all published in the FTA because they were listed business and so, so so yeah, it was all very much in the public public domain. So tell us a bit about what you did after recovering from selling your second business unit. You're now into a new area.

00:06:25:16 - 00:07:03:31 Unknown Chapter three A quick, quick sort of summary of that before we delve a bit deeper. But yeah, of course. So post selling the business I admire now for an 18 month period, I found that tricky going back to earlier comments about being unemployable and pretty unmanageable. So I found that hard and working for a listed business and a much larger entity, all of it I found I found tricky and post and out I didn't want to dive straight into building another business.

00:07:04:00 - 00:07:35:33 Unknown I really want to take a little bit of time and work out what it was I fancied doing. And how that looked for me is that also coincided with what was going on in Ukraine. So myself and a couple of other entrepreneurs raised about 50 grand and went into Ukraine a couple of times to help out buying kit for initially families and then the not the Secret Service, the special service or something in Ukraine.

00:07:36:02 - 00:08:11:31 Unknown And yeah, I mean, it was random and I have no military experience, no medical, and I'm not actually that practical. However, pretty good at raising money and convincing people to get behind it. So it was all a bit random. We helped out. We managed to stay alive and not cause too much trauma. So that that was good. And then I went on a bit of a mouthful and I wanted to I wanted to really understand my kind of purpose in the world and did a psychedelic retreat, which is as it sounds.

00:08:12:00 - 00:08:40:09 Unknown And I was go, No, it wasn't actually. No, I'm not that ballsy. I'm sure that that is in my future, but well, we'll do it together. I want to meet my maker at some point and get connected to the quantum forces. So let's, let's, let's go to Peru. I'll get two for one. So it date. But no, it was set aside and it was an amazing experience and it was very powerful without sounding too hippie.

00:08:40:11 - 00:09:26:22 Unknown But but also I knew I wanted to take a bit of time and just decompress. I was really burnt out after the, after the outfit and yeah, I'd probably jumped back in at it though about six months later and did some work in the health care space for a business that I am a shareholder in. So as a non SEC and jumped in and helped help them grow, grow the business, did a very active net role and, and then decided to take the learning from selling the last couple of businesses and build a service that I don't believe anybody else has which is about helping an entrepreneur to maximize the value of their business

00:09:26:22 - 00:09:50:01 Unknown prior to an exit and that yeah, it was a little masochistic, him wanting to go all the way back and build a service and take it to market myself again. But it was a good learning experience because you know what it's like to get a bit soft when you've been, you know, in these businesses that grow. And I wanted to see could I actually put a proper shift in again?

00:09:50:04 - 00:10:12:08 Unknown And it's a muscle, isn't it? It's a muscle. We have to keep turning and going back and doing and I'm equally masochistic about it. So I'm a company. Indeed. Indeed. So you mentioned you had a sort of entrepreneurialism itch to scratch and that you wanted to be your own boss and, you know, you found yourself unemployable, but that was business, one which you exited business to different.

00:10:12:08 - 00:10:47:21 Unknown You you acquired your way into that, I think. And as you imagine, a lot of our audiences are acquisition entrepreneurs. So tell us a little bit about how that came to pass. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It's an it was an acquisition, so different was a recruitment company at that time, wasn't even called different. It was called Blue Fire and I was mates with the founder of that business and over the years we talked about doing something together and it was never the right time at all.

00:10:47:21 - 00:11:20:22 Unknown So I knew that I wanted to build something that was centered and I really wanted to kind of own the outcome from designing all the way through to building this service. I didn't have a burning desire to run those services after that, but but when I pitched Steve, I said to him, Listen, you know, if you give us 50% of the equity in the business, I'll jump in and we will sell this thing in five years and we'll sell it for a shitload more than you can sell the recruitment company for right now.

00:11:20:22 - 00:11:57:07 Unknown But we'll also have a much heftier margin. And I just want to pause on that and drill down a little bit deeper because that is, of course, lots of acquisition. Entrepreneurs think about how they can structure a deal that it's in the interest of the seller, persuade them to come on this journey, take, you know, take the growth equity pill on the basis of what you give up today to let me in is going to pay you back massively on the collective exit you're going to get by growing this together and almost to the day you managed to deliver Steve an exit by reshaping his business, that which became your collective business.

00:11:57:10 - 00:12:31:21 Unknown Just did you encounter any resistance from Steve like, or did he embrace that idea wholeheartedly from day one? Yeah, there was no resistance from from him. We talked about this on and off for years, so I think there was no resistance because I'm not sure he fully understood what it meant to move from recruitment to an outcome based business and what what did happen was that the business was transformed beyond recognition, and so therefore it became difficult for him to play a role in the business.

00:12:31:29 - 00:12:57:26 Unknown But I would also caveat that by saying, Gareth, I'm probably quite hard work to sit alongside as a business partner. And I remember, you know, conversations with him where I think in the end his attitude was like, well, right, he's going to do it anyway, so I'll just get out of our way. And I do own 50% of the business, so why would I try and wrestle for some of this?

00:12:57:29 - 00:13:19:06 Unknown Because she's going to make it happen. Yeah. words to that effect. It was great. And it just demonstrates it's a lovely case study in that growth equity piece where it's like, you know, come along with me, I'll see you. Right. And you know what you're giving up today at today's enterprise value is going to be, you know, pale into insignificance by contrast to what I'm going to generate for you.

00:13:19:08 - 00:13:38:18 Unknown So, yeah, I think, you know, entrepreneurs should take heed of that advice that, you know, I assume that your acquisition was through services, through the sort of the time and the effort and the sweat and the years that you put into the business rather than having leveraged a business or, you know, send Steve some cash. And that's yeah, you're absolutely right.

00:13:38:18 - 00:13:59:27 Unknown So and he had, you know, to be fair to him because and doing that very first early start up from zero to a mill you know that is hard yards you've got no trade in history you know there's bloody payday loans, there's all manner of shit that has to go on now. I was never ready for that aspect.

00:13:59:27 - 00:14:21:32 Unknown I probably learned that one this time round with the craft club. But you know, you're a bit older, a bit wiser, and you know your way around this stuff. But he has it put a lot of kind of graft in to it. But as we transform that business from recruitment and supplying people to owning the risk and owning the outcome, it was a fundamentally different business.

00:14:22:00 - 00:14:56:03 Unknown And, you know, by his own admission, it wasn't one that he particularly recognized, but it was it was four and a half years to the to the day. And it was you know, there was a lot of luck involved. And certainly it wouldn't have just fallen in your lap. You had to go out and get it. I would I would argue we had a lot of chasing around, but to be fair, you know, once once we were once I was in, it was very clear, you know, we have the framework set up.

00:14:56:06 - 00:15:25:26 Unknown So it was it was easy for me. I'd set the inside of the fence for a long period of time. It was relatively easy for fit for me to sell the first outcome. Once we'd got the first outcome in and we then delivered on that, we were whites of races. So it was getting nice. So you sensibly didn't do the 0 to 1 thing the second time around you'd been out that path different.

00:15:25:26 - 00:15:49:33 Unknown You, you got into at a stage of maturity obviously had to go through the whole pivot and, and the sort of regeneration of the business if you like. But I'm interested in having gone through that exit journey the first time around, what you did differently the second time around, if you can speak to, you know, being prepared for the exit that four and a half years later after after coming in and taking the equity.

00:15:50:02 - 00:16:15:33 Unknown So I was very, very prepared for the exit because I went into different with exit in mind and we were very vocal. You know, the strategy was clear right from the outset. So we had within two and a half years with a full sale ready and we we partnered with our biggest competitors a lot of the time, and we didn't do that because we had a burning desire to be working with them.

00:16:16:01 - 00:16:41:27 Unknown So but but we knew that we were going to be acquired within the industry. And we had worked with the three companies that offered to buy us. We'd worked with all of them and we'd work with companies that they had acquired as well. So we, you know, we were very much a known quantity in that respect, but it was our preparedness in a way.

00:16:41:27 - 00:17:19:31 Unknown If, you know, we when I sold the business, we were just shy of nine mill turnover. We had about 65 permanent staff through about 100 and total within trends. But but we were much more involved in preparedness for an exit than a business of our size should have been. And that was purely experience of of been. I've been been through it many, many years before, and my father has done a lot in the sort of private equity and acquisitions space and so then reaches in that discipline's built in.

00:17:20:04 - 00:17:48:08 Unknown But I guess I'm not sure he would say there's any discipline built in our fathers never to understand where you're going with that. But yes, yes. Well, I was trying it was pretty tenuous. But thank you for for sticking with me on that one in preparing the business, I assume you and if I'm wrong or at color, if you can, you were running the business with a view to it being in good order so that if somebody did want to look at the books and look at the processes and stuff, you could have said, Look, here's the keys.

00:17:48:11 - 00:18:09:17 Unknown Yeah, if you hit my number, you know, it's ready. It I, I think that makes it sound a bit cleaner than it was. So I and the reason I say that is we had a playbook for how we deliver for clients, so we were quite well on top of that, we managed our utilization within an inch of our lives.

00:18:09:20 - 00:18:34:28 Unknown You know, from a financial perspective, we were really clear about what we were doing and how we were doing it. I think the bit that I would say though, is when I went through D-Day for acquisition at different, I learned about the business from a financial perspective because the lenses are different. So, you know, I knew my business inside and back to front, but I never looked at it in the way that, you know, someone who's conducting financial the D-word.

00:18:35:01 - 00:18:55:05 Unknown And so that was the that was still a learning curve for me. So was it ready to go? I take this 85% ready to go, which is probably a hell of a lot further along the line than most would say. Well, we can both speak to that from experience, that there is tend to tend to be further along than most businesses would be.

00:18:55:07 - 00:19:26:32 Unknown But yes, you know, fail to plan, plan to fail, isn't it really? And in that sense, you want to be running your business like somebody could come along and make you an offer you can't refuse and you don't have to put the business in good order in order to accept the offer. Yeah. And I think that's the that's the really interesting bit is when you've done it a couple of times, you inherently do run it a different way and you know the processes and in this world, you know, we would have this conversation internally yesterday, but even around automation of some of this stuff, it's like that.

00:19:26:33 - 00:19:58:00 Unknown You know why it's not only is it documented, but it's like, well, why is that manual involvement in some of this? Yeah. And so it's getting easier and easier is what I mean. Documenting was the first vanguard, but now it's automating. Like why haven't you documented is now why haven't you automated with all of the NLM? And if there's then that kind of back office automation stuff that now exists, we can build some really lean, scalable businesses without having to have an army of people, which is tremendous.

00:19:58:00 - 00:20:24:30 Unknown And that's the kind of new mentality, I guess, that if you're setting out to build today, you build with that premise cleaning accounts and lean workforce and processes. But I think you've hit the nail on the head, and I think that's also why we're going to see a huge amount of what I would call now, not quite a solopreneur and the be a small team around it, but the be a heavy personal brand around some of this, a very small team.

00:20:24:32 - 00:20:50:27 Unknown But but I yeah, I can foresee that we're going to have businesses that generate in millions with a very very small team of staff and that that's going to look distinctly different to how things have in the last five years. So yeah, interesting times ahead. It's super exciting times ahead. Yeah. And opportunities for value creation for people that are acquiring businesses and people that are that are forming businesses.

00:20:50:30 - 00:21:16:23 Unknown So let's bring it back up to date and talk about the grafter, because you mentioned that you're mission driven now and that you are out there supporting these health care professional services and SAS founders as they navigate the same waters that you had previously done. How has that mission evolved, crystallized and developed since you formed the Grafter a couple of years ago?

00:21:16:26 - 00:21:51:21 Unknown So it's it's evolved with I think there's a couple of there's a couple of areas. So as a business we have an underlying service which is great race exit, and that as a product and service has evolved. We've now taken 30 companies through that and we've also had we now have nine exit tiers from lots of different sectors who have been trained and delivered the program to two different clients.

00:21:51:24 - 00:22:20:14 Unknown So there's been a lot of evolution on the look and feel of that service. Yes, we have also built out a diagnostic tool upfront that actually assesses the maturity of a business and before we do any engagement with any client at all, we do that. That's the first port of call because we can't really do anything properly, anything data driven without having that assessment.

00:22:20:16 - 00:22:44:13 Unknown And I guess the only other bit that we continue to do that's outside of the growth rate is exit is market access stuff in certain areas because we have deep domain knowledge in in health care and then in some areas. So it makes us, by the way, not bias, it makes sense for try to get some expertise in that as well, but it makes sense for us.

00:22:44:13 - 00:23:15:16 Unknown But it makes sense for us to do what do some of that do some of that? And as a business, I think the probably one of the biggest shifts that we've seen over the last couple of years is is a real uptake and interest around the idea of buying and acquiring businesses. So that's not something that we offer as part of the growth rates at the minute.

00:23:15:19 - 00:23:55:22 Unknown However, the cohort that we're bringing on next week, we have interest in that cohort around acquisition. And so I think it's going to become, you know, we will need to think about how we we help service, you know, directly, indirectly through partners that that sort of things. And I think the other bit is without going off on a political rant, the you know, the landscape around opportunity national insurance taxes, you know our entrepreneurs wanting to continue doing business here or are they exploring different locations there.

00:23:55:23 - 00:24:24:06 Unknown The bits that I think and, you know, without even getting involved with the wider economic situation and another activities, it's fair to say it is a lively market right now. There certainly is. And all those factors that you speak to, there are motivations for for selling. So amongst, you know, founders or owners whose race is potentially one, they've they've they've reached a point in life where they want to pass on the baton.

00:24:24:06 - 00:25:01:28 Unknown You know, all these additional tax rates and legislative burdens that have come from our new esteemed leaders. And of course, that mindset shift. But we already had an abundance of companies that needed to sell just purely because of the age of ownership. So it is a it is a buyer's market. And I think, you know, it's a consequence to an extent of the stage and phase of the businesses that you're working with, that they're thinking in terms of corporate development, acquisition growth through buying other businesses because those are how you get the big strides forward, right, in sort of increasingly mature markets.

00:25:02:02 - 00:25:27:12 Unknown So it doesn't surprise me as also, you know, we've now got stabilizing and gradually reducing interest rates. You know, companies that are cash generative should be using their balance sheets to create leverage that they can then use to buy competitors or do some kind of horizontal or vertical acquisitions. So yeah, I'm really pleased to hear that you're seeing that playing out in the cohorts of companies that that you deal with.

00:25:27:15 - 00:25:53:00 Unknown You mentioned a term there which seems very unique to the graph there and I want to drill in a bit further Exeter's Ed, a little bit about your army of equities. So credit where credit's due. The term Exeter actually comes from my old man who trademarked the name for me I think is still trademarked in his name actually, which will be a challenge for us in the future, I'm sure.

00:25:53:03 - 00:26:33:08 Unknown But if it was a term he came up with and I just absolutely loved that and how we define the next tier. Is it somebody who has built and sold at least two businesses in that area in their respective domain? And so, you know, my my background is happens to be professional services and healthcare. And we have Exeter is who we initially focus purely on, healthcare and then professional services.

00:26:33:16 - 00:27:12:02 Unknown More recently opened up from us perspective as well. And yeah, it's about getting coverage in different sectors is but also it's a bit like, you know you're mapping and matching the the founder with the Exeter. And so just because you know I do know healthcare well there's lots of area of healthcare that aren't necessarily in my niche so and you know my personality my style may not be the right fit for for some founders.

00:27:12:05 - 00:27:41:20 Unknown And so we do a bit of a match exercise across the companies that are coming on. And the other interesting bit we've seen more recently is not just the founder joining the program. So we've got, you know, like a CFO will join as well and or a chief operating officer. And so again it's interesting, you know, managing a 3 to 1 around some of that kind of coaching and consultancy work.

00:27:41:20 - 00:28:10:19 Unknown But it's it's really about doing that matchmaking and yeah the Exeter to term is defined as you know you've got a couple of them under your belt and you know what you're talking about. But but equally, all of the activities that deliver growth rates that have been trained by me on the on the program that I've, I've built and it's pretty intensive this new we've just updated the program so it's pretty intensive.

00:28:10:22 - 00:28:38:23 Unknown 21 I say 22 modules, 27 actually 22 I think. And we've also included a brand new module around life and legacy. And the reason we've done that is not because we want to encourage everyone off, off onto a psychedelic retreat, but because we recognize that a lot of the time people have an ask themselves some of the fundamental questions about what are they actually doing this in the first place.

00:28:38:31 - 00:29:06:22 Unknown And so as you go through the process of, you know, creating an event, be it raising or exiting, you know, you're you're then in a bit of a lull around, you know, your identity and your connection and who are you. And so a lot of that is is preparing people for what that, you know, looks and feels like, but also allowing them the space to have that conversation.

00:29:06:22 - 00:29:33:18 Unknown I don't know about you, Gareth, but, you know, there's plenty of my mates that come from every conceivable walk of life and make ringing up saying, you know, I've been a bit tearful after an eight figure that is likely to have a phone put down is first Well, Prep founders go through a real emotional rollercoaster, right? And no one really prepares you for how you're going to feel post parting company with, you know, your baby, if you like.

00:29:33:25 - 00:30:04:20 Unknown It is almost like postpartum in some sense, if it isn't PTSD in the process, but it really sounds to me that there's a differentiating feature here. You talked about coaching and consulting and obviously that that proliferates, but where the is seems to have a unique angle. Is it an understanding, the sort of the psychology of the of the founder throughout that entire journey and almost emotionally and mentally helping them prepare for these different milestones along that path?

00:30:04:22 - 00:30:30:04 Unknown No, I'd wholeheartedly agree what one of the team is a psychologist and it's interesting because the the chap that actually coached me after I sold different is now working for the business as well. And so I think it's incredibly important and that, yeah, there's no denying, you know, you build things to solve problems that you've had yourself. So that's very much.

00:30:30:07 - 00:31:00:08 Unknown Can you speak to the sort of psychology of the seller? I think it would help. You know, our audience is a lot of, of acquisition entrepreneurs who may not have been in the same shoes that we've been in previously. And having been on that side of the table, can you speak to the sorts of psychology that that maybe you recall going through or what you see your participants in the Great Race Exit program go through as they near the sort of the end game panic, nervousness?

00:31:00:11 - 00:31:38:09 Unknown Do I want to go ahead with this is my baby. I don't know how I'm going to feel and it's it's a you know, I think as as founders, we all want slightly differently. And I you know, I mean that as a positive but but also as you start to prepare to hand something over, you've put blood, sweat and tears into for whatever period of time it is really unnerving that, you know, that disassociation from the identity that you've created.

00:31:38:17 - 00:32:18:02 Unknown And so, you know, I remember on the transaction for four different we had some really heated debates on the run up with the acquirer around things, and it wasn't so much that they were being tricky. They were a little, but it was more my emotional state, you know, it was very it pushed a lot of buttons. I think going through that process and having somebody sit alongside me who had been through that, not a lawyer, not corporate finance, they were definitely needed, but not for that.

00:32:18:02 - 00:32:49:20 Unknown But that's the bit that I felt strongly we needed to build from a from a grifter perspective, is is being able to truly empathize with exactly what they're going through. It's really revealing and actually quite reassuring to some extent because there's so much frustration that goes on on the buy side about deals that seem to get to the sort of the 11th hour and then for inexplicable reasons, kind of dissipate.

00:32:49:28 - 00:33:16:07 Unknown And often it's you know, it feels like the seller is having a change of heart or is potentially sometimes being labeled as being unreasonable or having unreasonable expectations. But, you know, you have to walk a mile in the shoes of the seller, understand that emotional rollercoaster that they're going through and that worry and concern about what's next. And, you know, having, you know, looking behind the veil and thinking, my God, what am I going to do without this presence in my life?

00:33:16:10 - 00:33:34:30 Unknown And I don't think we we give them enough credit for that. If there's a way of being able to qualify that going in before getting them around the table and wasting a lot of money on the professional services, then you know, we're always and I think that emotional readiness is a really important part, actually. Are you ready to step away?

00:33:34:31 - 00:33:55:12 Unknown And so far and that is where we spend quite a lot of our time. And it's not just at the planning for exit. It's the same if they're taking money in and they're suddenly going to have investors sitting at the table calling some shots and driving some behavior and assembling the board that feels different to how it's felt before.

00:33:55:15 - 00:34:16:25 Unknown And yeah, all of that, I think. And, you know, even on the growth side, you know, I did a video about this today, but, you know, businesses get to a certain level. We tend to work with businesses are doing a million turnover plus but you get to that point and then I think there's also a panic around have I got product market fit?

00:34:16:28 - 00:34:36:12 Unknown You know, how do I stay on top of late gen marketing? You know, the changes as we talked about before we start recording. But I and all of this is coming so thick and fast I think we could all be at a date in a matter of weeks unless we are constantly trying to stay on top of this stuff.

00:34:36:15 - 00:35:02:23 Unknown Yep. Change. Or do I think that's a very real threat right now as an additional one income alongside your, you know, market forces, competitors, staff, finance, you know, economic, macroeconomic, geopolitical. Yeah. It's it's not an easy time to be an entrepreneur, is it? So on that note, within the grafter, what would you say your biggest challenges right now that you would like to meet or overcome?

00:35:02:25 - 00:35:29:02 Unknown I think it's the same challenge that plenty of businesses have, and it is. It's about marketing, qualified sales, qualified leads, getting in front of the right people to translate that to business. And the you know, the the service is I mean, this is a I would say this isn't meant as arrogant, but I've just rewritten the thing. So it will come across that way.

00:35:29:02 - 00:35:55:33 Unknown The service is exceptional and I'm very proud of it and it has helped a lot of businesses and it will continue to help a lot of families and businesses. But it's the old thing. Back to to what I've just said. Things are moving so fast. You know, we had a brilliant debate the other day about how do you know the the SEO equivalent of I total and how do we appear higher up the rankings.

00:35:56:02 - 00:36:22:23 Unknown And this is stuff that isn't even being, you know, barely being thought about yet and we've got to consider it. And as a small business and a bootstrap business, I can assure you the marketing budget for these activities is lightweight. And so therefore, you know, it's but it's, it's that it's making sure that we get in front of enough of the right people.

00:36:22:23 - 00:36:43:25 Unknown Now I see ICP and I would lay money on the fact that's probably the biggest challenge for a business. So many businesses. Yeah, Yeah. Where you're particularly serving a niche well and you've got, you know, there is a, an ideal customer profile and they're not profligate, they're not they're in, you know, in abundance. You really need to pick the ones that you can add some great value to.

00:36:43:25 - 00:37:06:28 Unknown That's, that's the that's the gold. And there's a lot of customer acquisition cost that goes towards finding them and converting them. Isn't that in every business? But glad to know that you're you're mortal and going for the same as the rest of us, which is probably my favorite topic of conversation. Gareth So so yeah. And you know, we know maybe we do do it better than some.

00:37:06:30 - 00:37:31:22 Unknown I still think there's, there's room for improvement. But then, you know, I'm a reasonably hard taskmaster. There will always be room for improvement. So. Well, let's, let's look into that because it will take a little kind of journey back and then a journey forward to the future. But like, if you could do anything differently, going back and looking at the journey that you traveled, like what would it be, if anything?

00:37:31:25 - 00:38:07:20 Unknown That's a really good question. And I'm not sure my answer is in a business context, Gareth, because what prompted there was not a business response. Hence as well. Only I think it's more about being me sooner. Stepping in to make embracing may being totally authentic. And I would say, you know, I've been this way for a number of years, but, but I think it would have been, you know, just some of that.

00:38:07:22 - 00:38:31:23 Unknown Accept yourself a bit more, a bit sooner and yeah, don't give yourself as much of a hard time. So I think we do what we're trying to find the greasy pole we do. We are our own worst critics. I think that's in the wiring. But you reach a point of maturity, I think where you become at peace with yourself and you get out of your own way in that sense.

00:38:31:23 - 00:39:02:03 Unknown And yes, it's so much more productive, isn't it? So much more productive and also recognition I can't actually control very much. And so trying to is is very counterproductive. A lot of waste of my time and energy and yeah this this really does you know had been to too hippie territory here but you know if it's meant for it will it will come and I think there's probably a little bit Yeah that that would have been a more comfortable journey at times.

00:39:02:03 - 00:39:39:06 Unknown I think learning that lesson a bit sooner. Great. Thank you for sharing that. And then looking ahead to say 12 months time, where would you hope the grafter is at? And I would like that graft to be in a different geographical location and I'd like us to. We're exploring conversations with a couple of companies in the US. I would like us to have a service offering in a different location, and I think that would be very exciting and more of the same, I guess.

00:39:39:09 - 00:40:08:16 Unknown You know, we're working with some exceptional clients. We've we've got a very well publicized No. One care policy, and we're proud of that fact. And what I mean by that is we work with people that we actually want to spend time with outside of work, and that is incredibly it's incredibly powerful. But also it's really fulfilling because we genuinely want to get cracking results for for the people that we're working with.

00:40:08:16 - 00:40:35:07 Unknown And so more of the same is the honest answer. I'd like the Leeds flying at every minute, but I don't think you're offering me three wishes here. I'm into my little Aladdin's lamp at the minute. Yeah, No, Genie, I am not. Unfortunately, I certainly believe that what you've got is a recipe at the grove that can cross borders and, you know, emerge in other geographies.

00:40:35:07 - 00:41:03:21 Unknown And I sincerely hope that that happens. I can also speak to the benefit of the No wanker policy because you put together a wonderful community full of really good souls who help each other out and that in itself is magical. Yeah, I agree. And I right at the start of the quest I said to say many times over, I suspect we will do amazing things as a business, but I think the community will stand on its own merit and in its own right and ensure order and will almost run, you know, run alongside.

00:41:03:28 - 00:41:26:02 Unknown And there's there's real power in that, in that, you know, there's probably 120 entrepreneurs, you know, And if it's not helping people find jobs or, you know, brokering contacts between or someone's looking for investment. And yeah, I do think community is very much at the heart of where we're all going to be heading today. Yeah, no, it's a powerful strength.

00:41:26:05 - 00:41:58:25 Unknown And if entrepreneurs wanted to join that community or speak to you about the grow, raise and exit program, how might one get in contact with you? So my smiling face is plastered on social media on a regular basis, but best bet is through LinkedIn or the the website is at WB WW don't be grafter dotcom so so yeah either way but yeah I'm I'm an avid user of everything in the social sphere.

00:41:58:28 - 00:42:25:10 Unknown Yes you are indeed prolific yeah I don't know where you where you get the additional hours in the day to be everywhere all at once and everyone wonders that Gareth Indeed. I think it's just a very good team. So great. Thank you so much. It's been enlightening. I have been greatly motivated by hearing your story, as I'm sure many of our listeners have, and we are honored to have you as a big supporter and proponent of what we're doing in this country.

00:42:25:10 - 00:43:01:09 Unknown So thank you again. Have you got any closing parting thoughts that you want to share with the listeners and viewers? Yes, I do, actually. I have one, which is if we've got any of the Labor government listening in to this discussion, then a very clear and, you know, I'm not messing around, but a call to action around a scheme not dissimilar to the SBA in the US would be very much because if we don't do something creative for entrepreneurs over here, then I do think that more will be heading to sunnier climates.

00:43:01:12 - 00:43:30:12 Unknown And yeah, I just think that would be a real more than a shame. So if Rachel Reeves is listening in, then yeah, I'm sure we can get a very large group down to number ten or number 11 for a discussion around how we can bring that SBA loan scheme to the UK. Fabulous rallying call to action. And I sincerely hope Rachel Reeves is listening, not least because it would significantly increase the bill.

00:43:30:12 - 00:43:51:28 Unknown Also, we need to take it. We need to take a remote. So that has to happen. Here we are. Okay, I shall instruct my team accordingly. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure and yes, we wish you well on the graph. The journey you've already created go from to previous projects and I know you will do the same again for others this time round.

00:43:51:29 - 00:44:10:02 Unknown So thank you and thank you to our listeners Until next week. Do keep on crunching.