Maisie: Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast

Andy: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Page 94.

My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm here in the Private Eye offices with Helen

Lewis, Adam MacQueen and Richard Brooks.

We are here to discuss, the news.

Let's get into it.

I thought I'd, I'm experimenting with a shorter introduction.

Helen: Okay, good.

What do you Okay, good.

We're all just a bit abrupt.

We're all having quiet, lovely little sleep and then, oh, hello.

Andy: Yes.

we are gonna be talking about, a little bit of media stuff later on.

We're gonna be talking about something American later on.

But as Richard is here and as a special guest, we thought we'd start off by

asking you Richard, about British Steel.

Adam: You are our Man of Steel.

Richard: Uhhuh.

Andy: Yeah.

Yeah.

So this is about British Steel, which is the last big steel works in the UK making

what's called virgin steel, which is.

Box fresh, brand new steel, which is a very strong and useful variety

for pretty much anything you ought to make if you wanna make a ship or

a skyscraper or a washing machine.

Steel is really the thing to do it from.

And, British Steel has been owned by a Chinese firm for the last six odd years

was on the absolute brink of going bust until the government stepped in, a week

or two ago now snapped it up because if they hadn't done stopped completely

Richard: -they haven't quite snapped it up yet.

Okay.

they've told it to snap to attention.

they've enacted some legislation where they can essentially tell.

British steel what to do.

Okay.

so they're going and say, you must keep running your blast furnaces and

all the rest of it, and you must buy some, all the ingredients you need.

Andy: it still owned Technically by Jingye, the-

Richard: But it's still technically owned by the Chinese

Andy: Oh, so it's a bit in that sense, like The Daily Telegraph in that

it's owned by an overseas power, but

Helen: switch it off for five minutes, it will stop and you

won't be able to get it going

Andy: It is core national infrastructure.

We cannot survive without it.

, Richard: So at the moment British Steel is in special

measures, very special measures.

And it's just having to do what the government tells it to keep

it going at a cost of about three quarters of a million pounds a day

so two, 300 million pounds a year,

Andy: So the situation we've got wasn't sustainable, but it

hasn't been sustainable for years.

Is that right, Richard?

Because the last time British Steel went bust was in 2019, and that's the

point at which the last government, the Conservative government allowed

the Chinese firm Jingye to step in and buy it on the assumption

that they would keep it going.

But the industry as a whole has been on a downward slope pretty since the 1970s, or,

Richard: yeah, possibly since the 19th century.

It's, it's economically it struggled and privatized in it.

1988. And since then, a whole series of companies have struggled to make

money from it had to be bailed out.

it became Chorus then, Tatar Steel, the Indian company bought it.

then they sold the Skort bit to, another private investment firm called Gray

Ball, which didn't invest So they went, bust then had to be bailed out and

was sold to Jingye in 20 19, 20 20.

as what Alok Sharma, who was the Business Minister at the time, called "a big

vote of confidence in the industry."

Yeah.

So we keep getting these votes of confidence every few years.

And then, the thing goes down the

Andy: Yeah.

There are great quotes from Boris Johnson at the time saying, oh, this

is yeah, idea, this is steel secured.

So why is it so difficult for Britain to money out of making

steel or to keep doing it

Richard: it's an expensive business because at the moment,

really because of energy costs.

and because we don't have the, coal to produce the coke that needs to go into

the blast furnace, we have to import that.

and the iron ore.

So we're, reliant on buying everything in paying huge electricity costs.

And that adds up to losing money.

You've then got other challenges coming in from China, for example,

dumping steel on the market.

That caused a bit of a stir, before we decided to just sell them

skunthorpe, as some sort of reward.

there are issues.

It's steel always.

Seems to be at the heart of international trade tensions and wars.

So as well as the Chinese dumping, you've got tariffs imposed on it.

So we've now got, 25% tariffs on anything that we do manage

to make and export to America.

so it's always up against it.

It's always in, in the, middle of a political scrap.

And it's got huge costs.

So all in all it's Oh yeah,

Andy: pun.

Yep.

Sorry.

Carry on.

Richard: so all in all that, that adds up to a business you wouldn't really

wanna run You need some support.

Andy: And the, all of these companies that have run it over the, from Gray Ball to,

and before that, Tata, they just, none of them have had a long term vision of what

the future of British Steel might be or how it could be made to work successfully.

Richard: they, I think they have a vision.

They're just unrealistic ones.

Gray Ball came along and said, we, this was in 2016 and said,

we'll invest, 400 million quid.

They didn't invest anything like that.

The government believed them.

Sajid Javid was the Business Secretary at the time.

He believed them, even though they had a record of, investing in companies

and then just watching 'em go bust, like companies like Monarch Airlines,

you remember that, that name familiar.

Anyway, that went down the tubes on their watch.

But we still just hand over this critical industry, To companies like that, to,

to private investment firms that are only interested in extracting money from

them in the short term or to, companies from China, which are effectively

state controlled, even if they're

Andy: their own.

Yeah.

Yeah.

China makes about what, 40% of the world steel, a huge chunk

of Yeah, Something like that.

Chinese made.

So naturally they've got their own interest in their own country rather.

especially caring about whether British Steel thrives.

Yeah.

Richard: then we, as we wrote in the current issue, then we hand over thinking

about this really difficult problem to the management consultants and not just

any old management consultants, McKinsey, who screwed up all kinds of British

institutions, and do a lot of work for the Chinese and worked for specifically

Jingye, when it bought out British Steel.

and we say, okay guys, also just tell us what to do with our steel industry,

Andy: Right?

Richard: and we end up with a mess.

And we are surprised.

Andy: Why, were they involved in the decision making?

Sorry to ask a really basic question.

Why were McKinsey involved in it?

Why do we ask them to do it?

Richard: you've not bought into the way policy is made?

Have

Andy: No, I love the way policy

is made, but I just wonder with

the really important things, management consultancy

the

Adam: thing I've really noticed over the last 20 years working at Private

Eye is that every swen new governments come in and say, oh, we're gonna get

rid of the management consultants.

We're not gonna be relying on the management consultants.

And yet they, it always the same management consultants, as you say, as

Helen: As well, isn't

Richard: it?

Yeah, always.

Yeah.

So in, in the case of steel, McKinsey have been given these sort of rolling contracts

over about four or five years to advise on the future of British Steel, as that

future sort of diminishes and diminishes.

and then, a few months into the new government, they were given

another contract by this government.

On, the future of British

Adam: already done that announcement about

fewer management consultants.

Suddenly, I remember Rachel Reeves

Richard: that one yes.

Soon after the latest announcement that we're gonna stop using

management consultants.

Helen: It's outsourcing, isn't it?

I remember, John Ledge when it worked at the New Statesman from saying to

me that the reason the government's like outsourcing, it looks like

it's about saving money, but it's actually about making someone else

responsible for it when it goes wrong, which I thought was fairly

cynical, but I also feel that probably life since then has vindicated it.

But you do see that, like in this case it's, about outsourcing

the thinking to somebody else.

not that we're gonna talk about the Supreme Court judgment, the speak,

but that, I think that was an example where government outsourced its policy

to charities, for example, and let them set what they thought their

interpretation of Equality's law was.

and I think there's a sort of weird parallel thing going on here, which is

that ministers never wanted to be the ones to close an iconic steelworks.

They never want to be the ones to nationalize, iconic steelworks.

So they wanted somebody else to do things.

Adam: It's

outsourcing blame as

much as

Richard: but also, but the, problem is that there are so many factors coming

into the decision or so many factors that should determine what you do with

the steel industry that go beyond just what the business department needs to

look at or what the, even the steel industry narrowly wants to look at.

There are all kinds of, wider economic considerations, even political and

geopolitical considerations about having a steel industry that you

can't expect a management consultant who's, pouring through their

spreadsheets, take into account.

So you end up with very narrow decisions, which say, oh, okay, we'll trust this

Chinese company, and no one says, are are you sure you can't really do that?

Adam: Presumably a lot of those geopolitical factors have changed a lot

in the last few weeks even, haven't they?

Because suddenly we, need to go full Bismarck.

We need to get back into the, steel, the sort of gunship and, weapons and tanks.

building business.

Helen: Yeah.

Somewhere.

Dominic Cummings is crying.

He loves the idea of going full Bismarck.

That's like his favorite thing in the world.

Richard: That always could have happened.

I know that these, developments with Trump and all the rest of it

are a bit unusual, but it always could happen that we were exposed,

particularly in an area like steel.

So you always had to guard against suddenly having an industry that

was, really in trouble and, having to have some source of, your own

steel making That was foreseeable.

And in fact, I think we, we did foresee it when the Chinese took over.

We said, is this really a good idea?

Trusting this critical industry to the Chinese?

Andy: there is something about the steel industry, which just really

reminded me of, the mortgage situation.

So when, this trust came in, blew everything up, went out again, everyone's

mortgages went through the roof.

Lots of people's financial situations were dependent on mortgage rates or

interest rates remaining around 1%.

And when they got up to 4%, suddenly you're in a world of pain.

So the British steel industry, even though it was on a downward

slope, was slightly dependent on.

gas remaining plentiful and cheap because this country imports loads of its gas.

And then suddenly when the price goes up, you see this amazing, like these

foothills rise into this amazing mountain range and the gas price chart.

Oh, then you are absolutely screwed.

And it's now substantially higher than it has been for, that period.

Accepted it for some time.

Yeah.

And what does Britain make a lot of?

Its electricity from, gas.

and British Steel have said the main driver of the price disparity in how

much it costs to make steel is wholesale electricity costs driven by the UK's

reliance on natural gas power generation.

and the whole thing has of course been dragged into the net zero

culture war with Nigel Ferris saying, I'll nationalize this.

And the, answer is to scrap net zero, which.

Will actually increase our reliance on gas.

So it's

Richard: not-

Helen: what if they replace the kiln with a really big heat pump, Andy?

Andy: Oh, dreamy heat pumps don't get that hot, I'm afraid.

Electric car furnaces do, but I don't think we've got time or

inclination to go fully into them.

But it is

Adam: we've also ended up in this really odd space, haven't we?

Where we've talked about nationalization.

The only person at the moment seems, to be where, hey, let's nationalize

is Nigel Farage, not, traditionally a left wing politician, although in

increasingly so on some of his utterances.

And it is an odd thing, isn't it?

'cause Labour seem to be running absolutely terrified of the

idea of nationalization in any industry and be it water or rail

Andy: they're doing trains by

Adam: they?

are doing the trains.

They're quietly doing the trains now, aren't they?

But that's, I remember back at the 2015 election, so Ed Milliband standing,

polls were returning huge support for the nationalization of the railways.

It's not something that the public are scared of.

And yet politicians seem absolutely terrified of it.

Presumably some of that is, is economic worries, but also there does seem

to be a sort of ideological No, we are not, like old Labour feel to it,

Richard: Yeah, I think they're testing the waters there.

They've, they said, that it is an option.

And I think they're looking to see what reaction is.

But it, I hate to agree with Nigel, but it is the sensible thing to do.

this thing is a bit out of control and you do need to take back control.

Andy: God

Richard: Sorry.

Andy: never had you down as one of those people, Richard.

Helen: no, but you are right.

There aren't, there are a couple of ways in which we've discovered that

things that we try to introduce a market to that, which is hugely dynamic

and benefited lots of industries, but in some of them it doesn't work.

And if we need, as you say, for national security reasons or whatever

it might be, our own supply of steel, then by, relying on the market

might not be the right way to do it.

It's ditter the utilities as should, I

think

what you

Adam: yes.

In the case of hydration and getting cholera, for instance,

so the water industry, it's

Richard: not about nationalizing the whole industry either.

It's about this part

of it.

so that you have a rump of the industry that is publicly owned.

in a crisis you do still have.

Something there.

Andy: but we still import the ingredients for it.

I just, isn't it a slight red herring to say, oh, we'll be

independent as long as we,

Helen: and do you wanna bring back coal

mines?

Isn't

doesn't

Adam: that

is where the net zero comes into it because they, it

was turned down, wasn't it?

The coal mine was it?

up in Durham that was gonna be specifically for producing

coke

for

Helen: Cumbia

Andy: no, 'cause sorry, that, the coal that annoyingly, the coal that,

that mine produces doesn't really work properly for the furnace.

It's not the right quality.

So the coal, would not have, yeah.

Yeah.

So there are a lot of very easy solutions being

Punted.

Basically we just need more coal.

We just need to get the North Sea going again.

And none of it is especially, how can I put it, aligned with reality.

Richard: But do import the things we need, like the coke and coal and the

iron ore from relatively friendly

countries.

Australia or

Andy: Australia, anytime

soon

Richard: it's seems

slow.

That will be going some,

Andy: Yes.

But the other thi sort of new method that Tata Steel has shifted over

to the electric arc furnace solved.

Not the whole problem, but part of it because it's a way of making steel from,

re recycled from scrap steel basically.

So pouring scrap steel, add a lot of electricity.

lots of electricity and you can, generate new steel, which is useful

'cause Britain exports more scrap than almost any other country in the

world

Helen: Yeah.

'cause we can't use

it.

Andy: we don't have the enough electric arc furnaces basically.

Yeah.

and globally, I think about 40 to 50% of new steel making capacity

plant is electric arc furnaces.

And that figure has steadily been rising.

So for a lot of steel uses, that will be an answer.

But that needs investment.

it will, it will, it needs

Richard: a lot of investment.

And at the moment it's not really capable of producing the top grades of steel

that you need for some of the defense

Andy: use.

Yeah.

Do

you have to protect that in its kind of uneconomic sphere and

Richard: well, that this is why you need a proper strategy, not decided by some

management consultants because you need to look at what this new technology or

relatively new technology can produce or will be able to because it's improving.

And there are a lot of people who think that before long in a few

years, it will be able to bridge produce the, highest grade steel.

So you've gotta move towards that.

But in the meantime, if you want your own steel industry, you've gotta keep

the other steel production going.

and that means, and you've

gotta

pay for that.

all

that has to be managed and, that's what's been

mismanaged

for years.

Andy: I think that's a, I think that's a great note.

Helen: I'm more well informed

Richard: That was

a

blast.

Helen: Hey.

Andy: Now, Richard has disappeared in a puff of smoke to go and torment

another management consultant.

But we're left with Adam and Helen and we're going to be talking about

a new phrase that Helen coined I think this morning in the eye office.

Do you wanna debut,

Helen?

Helen: I'm wondering if people think this is now a racial slur in our new

sensitive age, but I was thinking about the phrase Yank Avoidance.

Andy: I think now that Trump's back in that the phrase Yank Avoidance is such

a gentle slur but think it'll barely even, the slur absolutely the urometer.

Helen: Yeah.

So I was looking out to see whether or not that all of the, you know, absolutely

lurid headlines, which I have to say are on top of stories that turn out when

you expect them to also be lurid and true about, deportations, about hassle

at the board and things like that.

Were actually affecting Europeans desire to go to America.

Now we know already the Canadians have taken their ball and taken it a boot.

I dunno,

that doesn't really work.

Subs, please check.

But, the already Canadian boarding crossings were down, Mark Carney's

been running a very patriotic campaign for the Canadian election basically

on the kind of all stand up to Trump.

So there's a kind of great patriotic swelling of we won't

be the 51st state sold off in normally mild manner to Canada.

But the similar thing has been happening with European, Traveled to America.

So Axios reported that, flights to America are down 20% year on year in March

to the 10 biggest airports in the us.

And if you look actually that head for points, one of the many sites that since I

became obsessed with Avios, I spent a lot of time on, reported that actually you can

get really quite good deals on transecting flights because they're not filling

them in the same way that they were.

So I had been wondering about whether or not this was just a kind of thing

that everybody was saying and a kind of, oh, everybody hates Donald Trump.

But it does actually seem that the number of reports there have been.

So there's, two issues.

There's the one people within America, they're on green cards, they're on student

visas, whatever might happen, or people who are there illegally getting deported.

But there's another separate issue of people who have citizenship in nominally

friendly countries, getting a terrific amount of hassle at the border and

ending up in detention for a while.

Some of these people are slightly coming into work while on a tourist visa.

Some of them aren't, have slightly read flaky things in their travel

history, like they're only booked for a hotel for the first night, or they

don't have a return flight out again.

Which are the kind of things that, that trigger stuff.

But it does seem to me that Amer, America has given the world the

rest of the, the rest of the world.

The message basically, don't expect us to be nice to you if you

Andy: up right, I'm not gonna have that

And America border forces did until recently have a reputation

for being the sweetest, friend.

Lovely in the world

Helen: Lovely bunch of ads.

I dunno.

I remember.

Have you ever been to somewhere that's a kind of like

slightly more hostile country?

I just think this is a really interesting thing 'cause having a British passport

obviously is an absolute golden ticket.

Most people, countries are absolutely delighted

to see you.

And even the countries that are in a not, maybe you have to buy

a 50 pound visa on arrival like somewhere like Nepal or Uganda.

That's, they just want a bit, they want more US dollars in the country basically.

And I remember the first time really thinking about this was going to Russia

in 2016, where you know, they check your passports for, you get on the

plane, you know you have to have the visa you apply to in the consulate.

You get there and someone said, your hair's different to the way

it is in your passport photo.

And I thought, how, can I explain the concept of hair growing to this

boot faced Russian official without sounding intensely sarcastic and

ending up in the black Ivanka.

But I think something similar has happened in the way that people

feel that America treats them.

You get taken over secondary screening.

And the reports that we've had have been of people who said, they just said things

are different now, like Trump's in charge.

people still really seeming to slightly revel in their power and it only needs

a couple of, people who are bad appling in that way for lots and lots of people

in Europe to get the message that they don't really want to go to America right

Andy: and you traveled back and forth to and from America a fair bit for your work.

Yeah.

Have you noticed the departure lounge is empty?

are the queues substantially shorter the nice nibbles?

for the buffet.

Yeah.

I,

Helen: God knows how I've suffered from my journalistic car.

I've only been once since Trump was in actually, and while I was in the

air, I wrote about it in this week's column, I, everyone started sending me

the story about that French scientist who got, he got detained at the board,

so I shouldn't laugh, but it's such a strange thing you got to pay for, which

was having on his phone messages, which were something like hateful about Trump.

And that was the point where I really thought, I hope

they haven't read, any things

I've published under my own name on the internet.

so I have, if anyone's listening and they're thinking of going to America, I

would have a couple of recommendations.

Same as if you're going to anywhere you're slightly worried about.

One is take a phone, like a pay as you go phone or take an old phone that only

works on wifi so you don't have access to all of your emails or your social media,

all that kind of stuff on if you're an American citizen, you can, say that the

border aren't allowed to search your phone and unlock it if you're not a US citizen.

I'm afraid they can, if you even wanna slightly get into the country, you have

to let them have access to your phone.

They will go through things like even your deleted photos.

Now, someone got done for this, her deleted photos contained photos of her at

the Hezbollah Leader's funeral, which I have to say I wouldn't strongly recommend

doing if you want to go to America.

And I just think if, there are people who are worried about going to America,

just like basic security practices plus anything you can do that says,

I'm not dodgy, I would strongly cancel

doing.

You look

worried,

Andy, are you I'm not

even planning a

trip.

I

was gonna say it's your world tour.

Your World book

tour

gonna

take you

to

Andy: no

Adam: I remember years and years ago, 'cause I'm very old, but when I first went

to America, it was in New York in 1998 and prior, a few years prior to that, I'd

gone into railing around Eastern Europe.

So I had lots and lots of very officious looking stamps all over

my passport, all in relic alphabet.

and that was, they, they, gave that quite a going over at that point.

I'm sure, a couple years after that, after nine 11, they

wouldn't be bothered about at all.

They would, they'd been looking out for passes to, Pakistan and Afghanistan

and, Saudi Arabia and things.

But, you always got asked if you were or had been a member

of

the

Communist

Party, didn't you?

Which it

Helen: was.

yeah.

You had to take a form that said you hadn't been involved in the

Nazi genocide of 1930, 30 to 45,

Andy: And the people who've been coming in for this so far have not been US citizens

themselves, but they have been people very close to American citizens, haven't they?

Or they have?

They have certainly been some people who have been there legally, for example.

Helen: So Ma Mahmud kil, who was a green cardholder, married

to an American citizen, right?

Who actually his wife had a baby this week and he wasn't

allowed to be there at the birth.

'cause he's still being held in Louisiana.

He was held for being a pro-Palestine activist.

so he's, if you have a green card holder, you have the right to live

and work in the us It's the, on the, on, on the steps to citizenship.

He's been held one of the notorious cases that someone deported was somebody who was

El Salvadorian, had an order from a judge ordering them not to be specifically not

to be deported, saying that they would

be

at risk.

So there are like, there are gradations of, worry and I, I know from people

who've had, who have non British passports that it is a much more

hasley experience

Adam: and it's been done in an entirely performative

cruelty way as well, isn't it?

it's not just a case of, oh, sorry, that was a mistake.

They're literally going, that's, he, was a gang member.

He screwed, he's

gotta

stay

there.

Helen: I think this is what worries people is obviously now

that there's this tension here.

Every single person who has any kind of, has experience at the American

border, we gonna hear about it.

But equally well, this is why I go back to my Russia experience.

Russia to deport me would not have made the slightest bit of difference to them.

They don't need my money in the way that, Nepal was very glad to have it.

They don't need diplomatic relations with us in the same way

that, France or Germany would be.

And the US is now in that position where if they put off some people

coming over by doing things that are ostentatiously cruel, that's

kind of part of their shtick now.

Andy: is this intentional or is it a side effect?

Helen: I think it's more if you give people power, they might end up using it.

You see what I mean?

Like the, incentives are all there to be more aggressive on the border.

That's, what the dicta is coming down from on high about.

and the Trump administration likes these stories.

As I wrote in the column, immigration is about the issue that Trump is polling on

the

most, actually the deportation program, which I think is disgustingly cruel

in an overt way, is actually has more favorables than the unfavorables.

That might change as people hear more details about it.

But polarization in the US is such that as soon as Donald Trump starts doing

it, a load of people really like it.

And then the reverse happens, which is lots of Democrats who thought

globalization and free trade were bad and right wing things have now suddenly

become much more in favor of them.

And there is this is one of the things that I think.

I, it's said so often about US politics that it almost becomes a truism, but

genuinely it is so polarized to the extent that half the country has,

takes its views on something almost straight down the line and the other

half takes it straight down the line.

On the other side, there isn't a lot of room for people to have

opinions that are outta line with their, tribe, whether that's the

red

or

the

blue

one.

Andy: And it's a very different tone to that taken by, most European

countries, except some on the European borders, which do like to show off,

Helen: Yeah, Victor Orban being a very exactly, I think he's, he is,

he's the European, pattern maker for most of what Trump is doing.

And he has said, I want, new Hungarians.

I don't want immigrants.

the reality is that every politician in the modern world is gonna have

to deal with the fact that people are on the move and that is very

destabilizing to their original citizens.

Border crossings have dramatically fallen under Trump, which most

Americans heartly approve of.

But I think the thing that is the case that I think is worth making is there

is a difference between having even a quite a tight immigration policy and the

kind of casual disrespect for the law, the courts, the constitution, the almost

trollish ness of that, and the reveling in the kind of punishment aspect of it.

So one of the things that's happened is they've tried to deport this

guy who they say is a member of MS 13, , which is a gang, and Trump

tweeted a photo of this guy's knuckle tattoos with MS 13 written over this.

So he's got like a cross and then one of them's a dub.

And he said, the cross means one, 'cause there's one God.

And there's, and he, there was no mention that this photo, he had photoshopped on

the MS 14 or presumably some underling who understands how to work Photoshop.

But that they have made the entirely, as far as I can see, a

fabricated case against this guy.

And they're now really very doily manipulated, photographic evidence to say,

this guy's got gang affiliated tattoos,

and, this is someone who is now in prison.

There's an order the Supreme Court says he should be brought back.

And they're just going, no, you won't,

can't

make us

Adam: the scale to

which we've gone in four

months.

Whenever you

stop and

look back

at it,

it does just make you think, wow, doesn't it?

that's a government fabricating evidence and being gleefully posting

it

from

the

president

himself.

Andy: What, so just to bring us back to Yes.

Summer holidays Yes.

For any British listeners.

What next for Ynk avoidance?

Helen: I'd be really interested to see whether or not people

decide they're gonna go anyway.

I, it'd be, really interesting to look at the conference market

Adam: We've

got

a World Cup coming up, which is co-hosted with Mexico and Canada,

Helen: Oh my God,

yes.

Adam: It just does

not

seem

possible at the moment.

Helen: Yeah, and exactly.

and, lots of, lots of academic conferences are having big conversations at the

moment about whether or not they feasibly can ask their staff to come

and do an a conference in America.

'cause if you're an international association of, physiologists or

whatever, is it really fair to your staff with less favorable passports

to

ask

them

to

come

to a

Adam: It's a stage on from Jacob re Mark saying anyone who's been critical

of the government can't come and give lectures to the civil service, isn't it?

You actually genuinely,

Helen: yeah.

people

are

Adam: to come

into the

country

to speak

at

academic

Andy: Will this be good for America's soft power,

Helen: do

we

think?

Andy: Or maybe not

Helen: Before we go, I just wanted to have one update from, the last episode when I

talked about Swift Bricks and I actually heard from Hannah born Taylor, who is the

campaigner behind the swift brick proposed legislation who thought I was sagging off

swift bricks and, I had to point out that.

I was really being slightly cautious about them.

She says that she also thinks bee bricks are a bit more, they do get a bit musty

and filled with things that aren't bees, but she does say swift bricks

won't ever risk blocking development and without them, there is no future for

birds who breed in building cavity since we're destroying their cavity nesting

habit without mitigating their loss.

I'd like to make a formal apology to the Swifts of Britain

Andy: Britain.

Oh.

'cause they, because they nested,

Adam: community,

Andy: because they Nessun in eaves basically.

And new houses don't have eaves

Helen: and without Eves, they just literally can't.

Can't survive.

she's been doing it all on her own as a Soler, unfunded campaigner.

and I think that's something that I, some of the most important changes

of British law have come from someone banging on for a long time

with very little support initially.

So I wouldn't, I wanted to give Hannah big

Andy: to, that.

that's lovely news.

Yeah.

I actually had a hunky fireman come around and put some swift boxes on my house.

Only the other day I.

Adam: Is that what firemen do these days?

Helen: You absolutely sure it wasn't a stripper gram, we, you just handed him

the swift boxes and he was very confused

Andy: took his braces off.

I just said, come on up the ladder.

Now for our final section of the show, we're gonna try something

daring, something bold, something.

Page 94 has never done before.

We're gonna make a section of a podcast about podcasts.

Wow.

Helen: If it goes badly, we can discuss it next week on a section about

Andy: for the section about podcasts.

About podcasts.

The rest is podcast.

This is gonna be the snake eating its own tail.

A long last as we've been threatening to do for years now.

before we start this, we're gonna be talking a little bit

about, the BBC for example.

We're gonna be talking about commercial podcasts and independent

podcasts and all of this.

let's have some declarations of interest right off the bat.

Before

we

go.

I make another podcast, which is on BBC sounds.

I also make a Radio four show, which is on BBC Sounds and releases a podcast.

That's me done Helen.

I

Helen: I make a Radio four show, which is also on BBC Sounds, and I

have appeared on every podcast ever

made.

Andy: Three.

Hail

Marys,

Adam,

Adam: I know

my

place.

Andy: I

Helen: sure this

Adam: been such, so much as

just

boasting.

Is

it

Helen: you

No, it's nice.

You're like, you are monogamous.

You are,

you're

faithful

to

this

Andy: podcast.

No

Adam: else wants me.

Yeah,

Helen: like the who was on this side of the aisle.

Andy: let's come to the New Zealand of it last year, the BBC proposed that,

they might put adverts on some of the podcasts that they make, if those podcasts

are listened to on platforms other than the BBC's own in-house one, which is

called

BBC

sounds.

Adam: So there's other platforms are things like Spotify,

Andy: Spotify, its, people

now.

Exactly.

a couple of weeks ago they said they had considered the idea

and they wouldn't be doing that.

That was partly due to a big backlash from lots of, independent or rather

commercial podcast producers, which said, if the BBC Wades in and releases

podcasts, the, they'll swamp the market and we won't make any money

anymore.

Yeah.

That's basically what they said.

Adam: And

that was specifically because when counted as BBC podcasts are

actually lots of very popular.

BBC radio shows such as, for instance, desert Island Discs, the Archers, which

get listening, figures in the millions and are obviously where all of the

advertising would flock for obvious

commercial

reasons if it was

able to

great

Andy: Radio four shows maybe, sort of Friday night satirical comedies?

No,

Helen: Oh, the news quiz is

Adam: No, I can't think

Andy: of,

Adam: of any.

There's one sort of Thursday

mornings,

but

Andy: yeah,

Yeah, dead ringers.

Dead ringers is really, good.

Anyway, they've said they're not going to do

it,

but

naturally the BBC does make lots of podcasts because

they make lots of shows to me

this

seems

natural.

Adam: there is this odd thing.

Can I give you just a brief history of basically of BBC

sounds, I think is, the way

to

go

in with

this.

BBC sounds was

launched

by James Pernille, remember him ex Labour cabinet minister, who then went off

to the BBC and was all in the running for the top job until he wasn't in the

way that you are at the BBC and has now disappeared outta the, outta the

equation, but not before launching BBC sounds, which was the very controversial

at the time, replacement for the BBC

radio

iPlayer.

And the specific and explicit reason for this was to try and get more young people

listening to what was rebranded as BBC

audio.

So it was done as a way of coming, Hey, if we make these prescribable

and digital, then people won't notice they're actually radio programs.

'cause young people don't listen to radio.

So there was a lot of, as we said, things like the Arches and Desert Island

disc and stuff moved over to become downloadable and prescribable to and

effectively compete in that market against lots and lots of podcasts.

Now, the BBC also did all sorts of.

Other good stuff in the audio market.

I'm thinking specifically a couple of documentary series.

Katherine N's, a very British cult, which is about the lighthouse movement,

which

is absolutely brilliant.

Rihanna CR Oxford's World of Secrets, which was about, Abercrombie and Fitch

and sexual abuse that was going on in that company for many years now.

I think resulting in, in, all sorts of criminal charges over in America.

were done in conjunction, so I know Rihanna did a sort of panorama

on the same topic and stuff.

So they're within the b bbc, but they are standalone kind of

podcast things in their own right.

There was lots of other spinoffs as well from brands like Newscast in America

and

all these

kinds of things.

As it's gone on, it's developed into an odd sort of hodgepodge of all sorts of

things that are a lot less obviously BBC.

And here I'm thinking of stuff like, Lily Allen and Nikita

Oliver's Miss Me, which is,

very popular, perfectly good podcast, but slightly hard to see quite

why this is a BBC thing and, not, sitting in the, commercial market.

it's two celebrities gossiping

basically,

Helen: it's the same argument that essentially played out with the BBC

website, which is and the main problem is that it's really good and people

like it and it doesn't have adverts on it, which makes it a more pleasant

user experience than most newspaper websites See, reach, for example.

podcast Pass.

And I think there is always a feeling that the BBC has to navigate this

line between what is an offering that means people support the concept

of the BBC versus what does the commercial bits of the sector feel.

Is it like a level of unfair competition bolstered by the kind of

license fee and the centrality of the

BBC

to

British

culture?

Andy: I find it such a weird argument that the BBC should only

serve brown rice in its canteen.

I really do.

Is this entertainment or is it not?

There are some risks that the BBC can take.

Things like making detectorists where you say, this is a show

about two guys standing in a field going beep and finding a metal cap.

maybe more commercial aggressive rivals have taken a punt on that maybe.

But I just think this idea that the BBC shouldn't be trying to entertain people is

really

weird.

Adam: I'm not saying they shouldn't be doing that.

I'm saying that it's one of those areas a bit like, local radio and,

specifically local news online, where suddenly you've got a, very

direct kind of competition going on with, local papers who were trying

to, go di go digital as well.

So it's one of those things where there's, there is a constant

fight over it, a constant balance, however you feel about that.

It's also happened.

You mentioned then newspapers are piling in, national newspapers

are piling into the podcast

market as

well.

the male online has enormous number of podcasts.

most of them about women being murdered in horribly gruesome ways.

it seems to me they're

cornering

that

Andy: truth.

Yeah.

stick to, what,

Yeah.

Adam: the Telegraph has got in there as well.

very good Ukraine cast and also a podcast with, Alison Pearson

called

Planet

Normal.

Helen: and the daily, the Daily Tea with, Camilla Toni and Kamala Ahmed.

I think one of the things that's happened is, this is part of my broader

analysis of what's happened to the media is we moved from institutions

to influencers or personalities.

And so the feeling has, been that if you're any, if you're the BBC, if

you're a newspaper for whatever it is, you should build up personal brands

and they should have a podcast, which is a bit like the book of the film.

It's like the podcast of the person, if So if you've got a columnist in, you're a

newspaper and they're a big deal, you will also find them a podcast vehicle, right?

The Atlantic where I work has just given, David from is one of my most

popular writers, his own video podcast for exactly that reason, because it's

like, why wouldn't you max out this person that people like in across

all media formats, which wasn't

the

way

people were really

thinking It happens to podcast as well.

Podcasters get asked to do books there's a book by Stephen Bartlett,

who very popular Diary of a CEO podcast, which I think is comfortably,

maybe the worst book I've ever read.

It has the 13 rules and the 19 buckets, and it's just, it was too early to being

written by chat GPT, but honestly it was, just a brand extension bear, or as much

relationship to a book as I do to a horse.

The same thing.

Complaint has been happening actually over at Substack, the newsletter website

that was pitched as being a place for writers to build their audience.

What's happened now, because it's been really popular is

like Big Beasts have moved in.

So you have somebody who's got a following from somewhere else, and now

they do the substack of the brand along with Side, the podcast of the brand

and the column of the brand and the TV

show

of

the

Andy: brand.

This is what people say about celebrities writing children's

books that they, muscle in.

They tack up a lot of space.

They get a lot of publicity opportunities that others wouldn't get.

I think there's a pretty fair case to be made for

all

of

that.

Helen: fundamentally people are buying and consuming their work.

So I hope that there is a certain sort of Darwinian justice, which

if the something is bad, it

can't

go

on

forever.

Adam: can I?

At this point?

Andy: we'd

like to, again, you're subtweeting us.

Thanks very much.

Adam: Can

I

at this point, bring us on to phase three of my history B

BBC sounds,

which is the other odd thing that started to go on when the BBC were considering

putting advertising on their programs whilst on external, podcast providers.

They also started buying in lots and lots of really successful commercial

podcasts and running them on, BBC

sounds

without adverts.

and this was, some odd choices there.

they've got help by sex in my boss.

Excellent podcast featuring Jordan North.

Seems to come in about the same time that Jordan North Left Radio one.

Not under the best of circumstances 'cause he was yanked off air and, there was no

announcement made about where he was going until it emerged.

He was going to join a commercial rival, Gary Lineker last November was brought

in to do, his incredibly successful rest.

His brands, they've got football, which is specifically Gary Lineker and Alan

Sheer and Micah Richards, who are of course the team from Match of the Day at

the same time that the BBC was running into all sorts of problems and trying

to gently maneuver as he's now admitted.

Gary Lineker out of his birth at Match of the Day because it was

causing them all sorts of problems with impartiality in things.

it's, in terms of joined up, BBC, it's, it seems slightly odd in that way.

And

also,

these are commercial ones that are coming in one way and

they're trying to compete with

them on

another market.

Now the next phase, which is the most recent one, is that what, at the same time

as saying they weren't gonna run adverts.

On these external podcast providers, BBC has also quietly launched

a new podcast, a Formula One podcast, the inside track which

goes out

not on BBC sounds.

It goes on the commercial ones.

It has adverts in it both in the UK and abroad.

And it carries BBC branding and you have to look quite carefully to

see that the BBC branding actually belongs to BBC studios, which is

that mysterious commercial entity

that

is part

of

the

BBC

sort of when it's convenient to be and not when it isn't convenient to

be

as

in

this case.

and the feeling certainly in the commercial podcast, sector is that

this is the BBC very much trying to have its cake and eat it.

Andy: the thing.

That's interesting about this is that we are treating radio and

podcasts, like they're similar kinds of show and they're really not.

and at the very top end, very good podcasts and very good radio shows

probably are quite similar because they both take quite a lot of work

editing and production to make.

They might not sound like it because podcasting is traditionally a more

scrappy and conversational medium.

but actually you look at shows like.

In our time, which is the most radio for of Radio four shows.

But that is like a really, long running podcast.

And that's partly because podcasts also thrive on repeatability and

having the capacity to make lots and lots of different episodes.

It doesn't mean they're better than six passers.

It means there are different kind of show.

Yeah.

And I think it's a bit odd treating these things as though they're the

same, just because they're both audio.

Helen: The thing that's interesting about in our time, which I love

by the way, is that there are, it is essentially like a long running

podcast in which there are only two participants, and those two participants

are Melvin Bragg and an academic, right?

It's just one academic being barked at about like the Medicis or,

theorems or whatever it might be.

And they're in the same role every, there's a familiarity to

it, that I think really, works.

But you are right, like linear radio is it still attracts pretty

whacking great big audiences though.

crucial thing about linear radio is it also helps people discover things.

You might switch on the radio at a time and hear something you

otherwise wouldn't have done.

And I think the, worry I, everyone I talk to in the podcast sector is.

How do you recreate that for investigative podcasts?

And people have thought about very, innovative ways.

I think the Girlfriends is an example.

I think that's one where they did initial limited run and now

they're producing new episodes.

so people are really thinking about the format point.

But you are right, the format is as important as the content in some respects.

and that is also a function of the platform.

Sorry, I

sound

like I'm about to give a keynote,

don't I?

Adam: And that,

that I

think is where it gets very muddled with BBC sounds.

'cause if you open your BBC Amp Sounds home page, you end up with this

extraordinary hodgepodge of things, which are, long running podcasts along within

our time, but along with the world that won or last night's PM and things, they

all

bundled

in together.

Helen: I mentioned in the previous section that, about

heat pumps and wasn't, is there

not

a heat

pump

related to

Adam: control?

There is a, this very week a heat pump related control, which kind of

demonstrates some of the difficulties that the BBC have with this.

So

this one's

not a BBC podcast.

If you're keeping track of all of these, if you're keeping a tally, it's

an independent one, which is called the Happy, happy Heat Pump Podcast.

And I wish listeners, you could see Andy's little eyes lighting

up

Andy: I

have

listened

to

the

Happy

Adam: pumps Of course you

have

because you are net zero dad.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

it's gone.

It's over.

Sorry about that.

because, Evan Davis announced on Tuesday morning, the BBC worries, it may be

seen as steering into areas of public controversy, which I would argue was

more, areas of public controversy steering into, into that particular market.

Helen: it was co-hosted with, somebody from the industry, wasn't it?

And the industry wants subsidies for, heat pumps to be installed in people's houses.

And I think that's the blurry bit as far as I see with that one.

But it seems to be everybody I've, heard from, not just Andy, actually, there are

other people out in the wild, it turns out I know who are interested in heat pumps.

And it was really informative.

It was just a really useful bread and butter informative.

what is this

Andy: thing

Yeah, it was interested in

yeah, it was like five minutes of time on does this work in a

flat, do they work in the cold?

Like

Adam: informing and educating

people

It was,

Andy: It was, yeah, so

Adam: them and the sort of things that the BBC

maybe

ought to

be

doing.

But

Andy: I can see where the difficulty came in because the Cohost was a guy

with the implausible name of Bean

Beland

Amazing.

Yep.

No notes.

He's just terrific.

And he's the head of the Heat Pump Federation.

So naturally they have an interest in propagating knowledge and and

making people aware of heat pumps.

Evan Davis was very clear at the start of every episode saying, look, I work for the

BBC, this is not a BBC podcast and we're not trying to promote anything at all.

So it sounds like the, attitude that's been taken is that even talking

about these things is promoting them, unreasonable what we've

Adam: up with then is the situation where we've got podcasts out there,

which have been presented by, well-known BBC names, saying I'm not with the BBC,

we've

got branded podcasts, which are out there but are made by BBC studios.

So aren't the BBC, even

though they

sound like the

And then we've also got on the BBCA load of podcasts which aren't made by the

BBC and are nothing to do with the BBC.

But the BBC is piggybacking on the back of them.

So do you see what I mean about slightly confusing hodgepodge

and

a

lot

of conflicting

things

Andy: going

on

but very well then they contradict themselves, they contain multitudes.

is

Helen: this

Andy: do we, need order in the podcasting world?

Helen: Is

this something I we set

up

for?

Surely the what is behind this is the idea that there is a lot of

scrutiny on the BBC and particularly over net zero and about anything

that's seen as being climate related.

Andy: and a lot of the criticism, some of it is always valid, obviously the

BBC is a huge organization that gets plenty wrong, but a lot of it is code

for I would like the BBC to be completely

defunded.

Adam: Yeah.

Andy: is

the other

thing

that we're

not saying.

Adam: But there are also, issues within there about, fair

competition with commercial sector, which came up again this month.

And this is back to radio, which as you say is still proper linear radio

still really, popular out there.

One of the things stations that was really popular out there is the brilliantly named

Boom Radio, which plays old golden oldies essentially for, for readers of a certain

age.

A bit like It's

Andy: accessible on yachts.

As the boom swings across, that's when you get the brief period of

Adam: That's the boy.

Yeah.

yeah,

Andy: The boy.

Yeah.

Good.

Carry on.

Adam: boom

Radio.

Yeah, no, it's doing that golden oldie stuff, which you might remember older

listeners Radio Two used to do a lot of before, moving into a slightly

younger demographic with people like Vernon Kay on it, as well as Boom

Radio, which basically has David Diddy Hamilton, who knew he was still alive.

Simon Bates, who used to do our junior looking at me blankly.

You're too

Helen: young,

Andy: this is This is like when Helen, this is like when Helen

talks about American members of the cabinet, who I'm sure are very

important, but I just have never heard

of.

Oh,

Helen: I've never felt so young and millennial.

Tell me more about our elderly radio presenters.

Adam: the

other stories about elderly Radio One

presenters are

much

less

pleasant and none

of them

are

featuring on Boom Radio or anyone else these days, I'm afraid.

but there's also, grace Sits Radio, which is the one that Ken Bruce, famously,

absconded from, Radio two to come present on both of these massive, success stories.

BBC essentially has looked at them and said, hang on.

That's quite a good gap in the market.

And proposed launching effectively BBC Radio two and a half, which was

gonna be the same sort of, hits from the fifties, sixties and seventies.

and aimed at an older audience.

Ofcom, the broadcasting watch log have stepped in and

said, no, you can't do that.

You, if you neglected this audience and someone else stepped in, you now

don't get to, to step in and, take that back away from them, that they've

said That would be unfair Competition.

Interestingly, at the same time, I'd miss this story.

They, they, let through a couple of other Radio one extensions, they're

called Radio One Dance and Radio One Anthems, and Radio Three Unwind, which

is classic chill out music of the, sort of kind that I thought classic FM

was

set up

to

do back in the

day.

But there you go.

The one they didn't let through was an extension of Radio five Sports Extra.

'cause they said that would compete unfairly with, talk sports

specifically in that market.

So there is re it's as well as various people with undeclared

commercial interests who are complaining about this stuff.

There is also a broadcasting watchdog out there who is, trying to ensure some

kind of level of playing field for it.

yeah, you don't look

as happy

about

Andy: that.

No, I just can't.

Adam: about heat pumps just

Andy: so hard to ensure a level playing field.

I just what a complex

set

of

decisions they

must

Adam: face.

it is.

But I will put in a word for the idea of an everything platform because

I think the most irritating thing in the world, and I think listeners

might sympathize with this, is you can't bloody find anything these days.

God, I'm

old.

But no,

Andy: we get do this

on

Boom radio.

Adam: I spend half my life going,

where

can I watch this program?

And you have to Google it in order to find out whether it's on Netflix

Helen: or, may I help you or now

Okay.

There's a web website.

No, there's a website called just watch.com.

Okay.

And you just put in the name of it and it tells you where a

film or TV program is available.

And like which one's it, where it's free, which

ones it's paying.

Andy: right?

No, this

is there anything

Adam: If away

Helen: this podcast, I've helped you locate

Andy: locate your

Helen: binge watch.

Just watch.com.

Andy: is

too

a

lot

easier

Adam: though when there were only

four

buttons

on

the

telly.

Andy: We're going to end this right now and just say that one thing that

is available very easily is Private Eye Magazine, private hyen I co uk.

That's the website you should go to get a subscription.

You won't need all of these channels and gadgets.

With a lovely edition of Private Eye.

subscriptions are available, very reasonably priced, the

magazine is out every fortnight.

Thank you for listening to this show, which has been, produced as

always by Matt Hill of Rethink Audio.

The only other thing we have to say is that we are going to be at the

Cambridge Literary Festival this Saturday, the 26th of April, 2025.

For future listeners, sorry you missed it.

tickets in the room are sold out streaming tickets to see us, do our thing.

Adam's prepared his

dance.

Helen's gonna do magic tricks.

It's gonna be great.

the three of us and Ian are gonna be there on Saturday.

You can get tickets to watch the streaming event in the room, at the

Cambridge Literature Festival website.

It's gonna be great fun.

We are accepting a few final questions, for our q and a session, so send

those to podcast@privatehyen.co.uk.

We'd love to hear, a

few

last

questions

before we

do the

Adam: approach.

Where

can I watch Passport to

Pimlico for free.

Andy: it.

Goodbye.