Maisie: Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast
Andy: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Page 94.
My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm here in the Private Eye offices with Helen
Lewis, Adam MacQueen and Richard Brooks.
We are here to discuss, the news.
Let's get into it.
I thought I'd, I'm experimenting with a shorter introduction.
Helen: Okay, good.
What do you Okay, good.
We're all just a bit abrupt.
We're all having quiet, lovely little sleep and then, oh, hello.
Andy: Yes.
we are gonna be talking about, a little bit of media stuff later on.
We're gonna be talking about something American later on.
But as Richard is here and as a special guest, we thought we'd start off by
asking you Richard, about British Steel.
Adam: You are our Man of Steel.
Richard: Uhhuh.
Andy: Yeah.
Yeah.
So this is about British Steel, which is the last big steel works in the UK making
what's called virgin steel, which is.
Box fresh, brand new steel, which is a very strong and useful variety
for pretty much anything you ought to make if you wanna make a ship or
a skyscraper or a washing machine.
Steel is really the thing to do it from.
And, British Steel has been owned by a Chinese firm for the last six odd years
was on the absolute brink of going bust until the government stepped in, a week
or two ago now snapped it up because if they hadn't done stopped completely
Richard: -they haven't quite snapped it up yet.
Okay.
they've told it to snap to attention.
they've enacted some legislation where they can essentially tell.
British steel what to do.
Okay.
so they're going and say, you must keep running your blast furnaces and
all the rest of it, and you must buy some, all the ingredients you need.
Andy: it still owned Technically by Jingye, the-
Richard: But it's still technically owned by the Chinese
Andy: Oh, so it's a bit in that sense, like The Daily Telegraph in that
it's owned by an overseas power, but
Helen: switch it off for five minutes, it will stop and you
won't be able to get it going
Andy: It is core national infrastructure.
We cannot survive without it.
, Richard: So at the moment British Steel is in special
measures, very special measures.
And it's just having to do what the government tells it to keep
it going at a cost of about three quarters of a million pounds a day
so two, 300 million pounds a year,
Andy: So the situation we've got wasn't sustainable, but it
hasn't been sustainable for years.
Is that right, Richard?
Because the last time British Steel went bust was in 2019, and that's the
point at which the last government, the Conservative government allowed
the Chinese firm Jingye to step in and buy it on the assumption
that they would keep it going.
But the industry as a whole has been on a downward slope pretty since the 1970s, or,
Richard: yeah, possibly since the 19th century.
It's, it's economically it struggled and privatized in it.
1988. And since then, a whole series of companies have struggled to make
money from it had to be bailed out.
it became Chorus then, Tatar Steel, the Indian company bought it.
then they sold the Skort bit to, another private investment firm called Gray
Ball, which didn't invest So they went, bust then had to be bailed out and
was sold to Jingye in 20 19, 20 20.
as what Alok Sharma, who was the Business Minister at the time, called "a big
vote of confidence in the industry."
Yeah.
So we keep getting these votes of confidence every few years.
And then, the thing goes down the
Andy: Yeah.
There are great quotes from Boris Johnson at the time saying, oh, this
is yeah, idea, this is steel secured.
So why is it so difficult for Britain to money out of making
steel or to keep doing it
Richard: it's an expensive business because at the moment,
really because of energy costs.
and because we don't have the, coal to produce the coke that needs to go into
the blast furnace, we have to import that.
and the iron ore.
So we're, reliant on buying everything in paying huge electricity costs.
And that adds up to losing money.
You've then got other challenges coming in from China, for example,
dumping steel on the market.
That caused a bit of a stir, before we decided to just sell them
skunthorpe, as some sort of reward.
there are issues.
It's steel always.
Seems to be at the heart of international trade tensions and wars.
So as well as the Chinese dumping, you've got tariffs imposed on it.
So we've now got, 25% tariffs on anything that we do manage
to make and export to America.
so it's always up against it.
It's always in, in the, middle of a political scrap.
And it's got huge costs.
So all in all it's Oh yeah,
Andy: pun.
Yep.
Sorry.
Carry on.
Richard: so all in all that, that adds up to a business you wouldn't really
wanna run You need some support.
Andy: And the, all of these companies that have run it over the, from Gray Ball to,
and before that, Tata, they just, none of them have had a long term vision of what
the future of British Steel might be or how it could be made to work successfully.
Richard: they, I think they have a vision.
They're just unrealistic ones.
Gray Ball came along and said, we, this was in 2016 and said,
we'll invest, 400 million quid.
They didn't invest anything like that.
The government believed them.
Sajid Javid was the Business Secretary at the time.
He believed them, even though they had a record of, investing in companies
and then just watching 'em go bust, like companies like Monarch Airlines,
you remember that, that name familiar.
Anyway, that went down the tubes on their watch.
But we still just hand over this critical industry, To companies like that, to,
to private investment firms that are only interested in extracting money from
them in the short term or to, companies from China, which are effectively
state controlled, even if they're
Andy: their own.
Yeah.
China makes about what, 40% of the world steel, a huge chunk
of Yeah, Something like that.
Chinese made.
So naturally they've got their own interest in their own country rather.
especially caring about whether British Steel thrives.
Yeah.
Richard: then we, as we wrote in the current issue, then we hand over thinking
about this really difficult problem to the management consultants and not just
any old management consultants, McKinsey, who screwed up all kinds of British
institutions, and do a lot of work for the Chinese and worked for specifically
Jingye, when it bought out British Steel.
and we say, okay guys, also just tell us what to do with our steel industry,
Andy: Right?
Richard: and we end up with a mess.
And we are surprised.
Andy: Why, were they involved in the decision making?
Sorry to ask a really basic question.
Why were McKinsey involved in it?
Why do we ask them to do it?
Richard: you've not bought into the way policy is made?
Have
Andy: No, I love the way policy
is made, but I just wonder with
the really important things, management consultancy
the
Adam: thing I've really noticed over the last 20 years working at Private
Eye is that every swen new governments come in and say, oh, we're gonna get
rid of the management consultants.
We're not gonna be relying on the management consultants.
And yet they, it always the same management consultants, as you say, as
Helen: As well, isn't
Richard: it?
Yeah, always.
Yeah.
So in, in the case of steel, McKinsey have been given these sort of rolling contracts
over about four or five years to advise on the future of British Steel, as that
future sort of diminishes and diminishes.
and then, a few months into the new government, they were given
another contract by this government.
On, the future of British
Adam: already done that announcement about
fewer management consultants.
Suddenly, I remember Rachel Reeves
Richard: that one yes.
Soon after the latest announcement that we're gonna stop using
management consultants.
Helen: It's outsourcing, isn't it?
I remember, John Ledge when it worked at the New Statesman from saying to
me that the reason the government's like outsourcing, it looks like
it's about saving money, but it's actually about making someone else
responsible for it when it goes wrong, which I thought was fairly
cynical, but I also feel that probably life since then has vindicated it.
But you do see that, like in this case it's, about outsourcing
the thinking to somebody else.
not that we're gonna talk about the Supreme Court judgment, the speak,
but that, I think that was an example where government outsourced its policy
to charities, for example, and let them set what they thought their
interpretation of Equality's law was.
and I think there's a sort of weird parallel thing going on here, which is
that ministers never wanted to be the ones to close an iconic steelworks.
They never want to be the ones to nationalize, iconic steelworks.
So they wanted somebody else to do things.
Adam: It's
outsourcing blame as
much as
Richard: but also, but the, problem is that there are so many factors coming
into the decision or so many factors that should determine what you do with
the steel industry that go beyond just what the business department needs to
look at or what the, even the steel industry narrowly wants to look at.
There are all kinds of, wider economic considerations, even political and
geopolitical considerations about having a steel industry that you
can't expect a management consultant who's, pouring through their
spreadsheets, take into account.
So you end up with very narrow decisions, which say, oh, okay, we'll trust this
Chinese company, and no one says, are are you sure you can't really do that?
Adam: Presumably a lot of those geopolitical factors have changed a lot
in the last few weeks even, haven't they?
Because suddenly we, need to go full Bismarck.
We need to get back into the, steel, the sort of gunship and, weapons and tanks.
building business.
Helen: Yeah.
Somewhere.
Dominic Cummings is crying.
He loves the idea of going full Bismarck.
That's like his favorite thing in the world.
Richard: That always could have happened.
I know that these, developments with Trump and all the rest of it
are a bit unusual, but it always could happen that we were exposed,
particularly in an area like steel.
So you always had to guard against suddenly having an industry that
was, really in trouble and, having to have some source of, your own
steel making That was foreseeable.
And in fact, I think we, we did foresee it when the Chinese took over.
We said, is this really a good idea?
Trusting this critical industry to the Chinese?
Andy: there is something about the steel industry, which just really
reminded me of, the mortgage situation.
So when, this trust came in, blew everything up, went out again, everyone's
mortgages went through the roof.
Lots of people's financial situations were dependent on mortgage rates or
interest rates remaining around 1%.
And when they got up to 4%, suddenly you're in a world of pain.
So the British steel industry, even though it was on a downward
slope, was slightly dependent on.
gas remaining plentiful and cheap because this country imports loads of its gas.
And then suddenly when the price goes up, you see this amazing, like these
foothills rise into this amazing mountain range and the gas price chart.
Oh, then you are absolutely screwed.
And it's now substantially higher than it has been for, that period.
Accepted it for some time.
Yeah.
And what does Britain make a lot of?
Its electricity from, gas.
and British Steel have said the main driver of the price disparity in how
much it costs to make steel is wholesale electricity costs driven by the UK's
reliance on natural gas power generation.
and the whole thing has of course been dragged into the net zero
culture war with Nigel Ferris saying, I'll nationalize this.
And the, answer is to scrap net zero, which.
Will actually increase our reliance on gas.
So it's
Richard: not-
Helen: what if they replace the kiln with a really big heat pump, Andy?
Andy: Oh, dreamy heat pumps don't get that hot, I'm afraid.
Electric car furnaces do, but I don't think we've got time or
inclination to go fully into them.
But it is
Adam: we've also ended up in this really odd space, haven't we?
Where we've talked about nationalization.
The only person at the moment seems, to be where, hey, let's nationalize
is Nigel Farage, not, traditionally a left wing politician, although in
increasingly so on some of his utterances.
And it is an odd thing, isn't it?
'cause Labour seem to be running absolutely terrified of the
idea of nationalization in any industry and be it water or rail
Andy: they're doing trains by
Adam: they?
are doing the trains.
They're quietly doing the trains now, aren't they?
But that's, I remember back at the 2015 election, so Ed Milliband standing,
polls were returning huge support for the nationalization of the railways.
It's not something that the public are scared of.
And yet politicians seem absolutely terrified of it.
Presumably some of that is, is economic worries, but also there does seem
to be a sort of ideological No, we are not, like old Labour feel to it,
Richard: Yeah, I think they're testing the waters there.
They've, they said, that it is an option.
And I think they're looking to see what reaction is.
But it, I hate to agree with Nigel, but it is the sensible thing to do.
this thing is a bit out of control and you do need to take back control.
Andy: God
Richard: Sorry.
Andy: never had you down as one of those people, Richard.
Helen: no, but you are right.
There aren't, there are a couple of ways in which we've discovered that
things that we try to introduce a market to that, which is hugely dynamic
and benefited lots of industries, but in some of them it doesn't work.
And if we need, as you say, for national security reasons or whatever
it might be, our own supply of steel, then by, relying on the market
might not be the right way to do it.
It's ditter the utilities as should, I
think
what you
Adam: yes.
In the case of hydration and getting cholera, for instance,
so the water industry, it's
Richard: not about nationalizing the whole industry either.
It's about this part
of it.
so that you have a rump of the industry that is publicly owned.
in a crisis you do still have.
Something there.
Andy: but we still import the ingredients for it.
I just, isn't it a slight red herring to say, oh, we'll be
independent as long as we,
Helen: and do you wanna bring back coal
mines?
Isn't
doesn't
Adam: that
is where the net zero comes into it because they, it
was turned down, wasn't it?
The coal mine was it?
up in Durham that was gonna be specifically for producing
coke
for
Helen: Cumbia
Andy: no, 'cause sorry, that, the coal that annoyingly, the coal that,
that mine produces doesn't really work properly for the furnace.
It's not the right quality.
So the coal, would not have, yeah.
Yeah.
So there are a lot of very easy solutions being
Punted.
Basically we just need more coal.
We just need to get the North Sea going again.
And none of it is especially, how can I put it, aligned with reality.
Richard: But do import the things we need, like the coke and coal and the
iron ore from relatively friendly
countries.
Australia or
Andy: Australia, anytime
soon
Richard: it's seems
slow.
That will be going some,
Andy: Yes.
But the other thi sort of new method that Tata Steel has shifted over
to the electric arc furnace solved.
Not the whole problem, but part of it because it's a way of making steel from,
re recycled from scrap steel basically.
So pouring scrap steel, add a lot of electricity.
lots of electricity and you can, generate new steel, which is useful
'cause Britain exports more scrap than almost any other country in the
world
Helen: Yeah.
'cause we can't use
it.
Andy: we don't have the enough electric arc furnaces basically.
Yeah.
and globally, I think about 40 to 50% of new steel making capacity
plant is electric arc furnaces.
And that figure has steadily been rising.
So for a lot of steel uses, that will be an answer.
But that needs investment.
it will, it will, it needs
Richard: a lot of investment.
And at the moment it's not really capable of producing the top grades of steel
that you need for some of the defense
Andy: use.
Yeah.
Do
you have to protect that in its kind of uneconomic sphere and
Richard: well, that this is why you need a proper strategy, not decided by some
management consultants because you need to look at what this new technology or
relatively new technology can produce or will be able to because it's improving.
And there are a lot of people who think that before long in a few
years, it will be able to bridge produce the, highest grade steel.
So you've gotta move towards that.
But in the meantime, if you want your own steel industry, you've gotta keep
the other steel production going.
and that means, and you've
gotta
pay for that.
all
that has to be managed and, that's what's been
mismanaged
for years.
Andy: I think that's a, I think that's a great note.
Helen: I'm more well informed
Richard: That was
a
blast.
Helen: Hey.
Andy: Now, Richard has disappeared in a puff of smoke to go and torment
another management consultant.
But we're left with Adam and Helen and we're going to be talking about
a new phrase that Helen coined I think this morning in the eye office.
Do you wanna debut,
Helen?
Helen: I'm wondering if people think this is now a racial slur in our new
sensitive age, but I was thinking about the phrase Yank Avoidance.
Andy: I think now that Trump's back in that the phrase Yank Avoidance is such
a gentle slur but think it'll barely even, the slur absolutely the urometer.
Helen: Yeah.
So I was looking out to see whether or not that all of the, you know, absolutely
lurid headlines, which I have to say are on top of stories that turn out when
you expect them to also be lurid and true about, deportations, about hassle
at the board and things like that.
Were actually affecting Europeans desire to go to America.
Now we know already the Canadians have taken their ball and taken it a boot.
I dunno,
that doesn't really work.
Subs, please check.
But, the already Canadian boarding crossings were down, Mark Carney's
been running a very patriotic campaign for the Canadian election basically
on the kind of all stand up to Trump.
So there's a kind of great patriotic swelling of we won't
be the 51st state sold off in normally mild manner to Canada.
But the similar thing has been happening with European, Traveled to America.
So Axios reported that, flights to America are down 20% year on year in March
to the 10 biggest airports in the us.
And if you look actually that head for points, one of the many sites that since I
became obsessed with Avios, I spent a lot of time on, reported that actually you can
get really quite good deals on transecting flights because they're not filling
them in the same way that they were.
So I had been wondering about whether or not this was just a kind of thing
that everybody was saying and a kind of, oh, everybody hates Donald Trump.
But it does actually seem that the number of reports there have been.
So there's, two issues.
There's the one people within America, they're on green cards, they're on student
visas, whatever might happen, or people who are there illegally getting deported.
But there's another separate issue of people who have citizenship in nominally
friendly countries, getting a terrific amount of hassle at the border and
ending up in detention for a while.
Some of these people are slightly coming into work while on a tourist visa.
Some of them aren't, have slightly read flaky things in their travel
history, like they're only booked for a hotel for the first night, or they
don't have a return flight out again.
Which are the kind of things that, that trigger stuff.
But it does seem to me that Amer, America has given the world the
rest of the, the rest of the world.
The message basically, don't expect us to be nice to you if you
Andy: up right, I'm not gonna have that
And America border forces did until recently have a reputation
for being the sweetest, friend.
Lovely in the world
Helen: Lovely bunch of ads.
I dunno.
I remember.
Have you ever been to somewhere that's a kind of like
slightly more hostile country?
I just think this is a really interesting thing 'cause having a British passport
obviously is an absolute golden ticket.
Most people, countries are absolutely delighted
to see you.
And even the countries that are in a not, maybe you have to buy
a 50 pound visa on arrival like somewhere like Nepal or Uganda.
That's, they just want a bit, they want more US dollars in the country basically.
And I remember the first time really thinking about this was going to Russia
in 2016, where you know, they check your passports for, you get on the
plane, you know you have to have the visa you apply to in the consulate.
You get there and someone said, your hair's different to the way
it is in your passport photo.
And I thought, how, can I explain the concept of hair growing to this
boot faced Russian official without sounding intensely sarcastic and
ending up in the black Ivanka.
But I think something similar has happened in the way that people
feel that America treats them.
You get taken over secondary screening.
And the reports that we've had have been of people who said, they just said things
are different now, like Trump's in charge.
people still really seeming to slightly revel in their power and it only needs
a couple of, people who are bad appling in that way for lots and lots of people
in Europe to get the message that they don't really want to go to America right
Andy: and you traveled back and forth to and from America a fair bit for your work.
Yeah.
Have you noticed the departure lounge is empty?
are the queues substantially shorter the nice nibbles?
for the buffet.
Yeah.
I,
Helen: God knows how I've suffered from my journalistic car.
I've only been once since Trump was in actually, and while I was in the
air, I wrote about it in this week's column, I, everyone started sending me
the story about that French scientist who got, he got detained at the board,
so I shouldn't laugh, but it's such a strange thing you got to pay for, which
was having on his phone messages, which were something like hateful about Trump.
And that was the point where I really thought, I hope
they haven't read, any things
I've published under my own name on the internet.
so I have, if anyone's listening and they're thinking of going to America, I
would have a couple of recommendations.
Same as if you're going to anywhere you're slightly worried about.
One is take a phone, like a pay as you go phone or take an old phone that only
works on wifi so you don't have access to all of your emails or your social media,
all that kind of stuff on if you're an American citizen, you can, say that the
border aren't allowed to search your phone and unlock it if you're not a US citizen.
I'm afraid they can, if you even wanna slightly get into the country, you have
to let them have access to your phone.
They will go through things like even your deleted photos.
Now, someone got done for this, her deleted photos contained photos of her at
the Hezbollah Leader's funeral, which I have to say I wouldn't strongly recommend
doing if you want to go to America.
And I just think if, there are people who are worried about going to America,
just like basic security practices plus anything you can do that says,
I'm not dodgy, I would strongly cancel
doing.
You look
worried,
Andy, are you I'm not
even planning a
trip.
I
was gonna say it's your world tour.
Your World book
tour
gonna
take you
to
Andy: no
Adam: I remember years and years ago, 'cause I'm very old, but when I first went
to America, it was in New York in 1998 and prior, a few years prior to that, I'd
gone into railing around Eastern Europe.
So I had lots and lots of very officious looking stamps all over
my passport, all in relic alphabet.
and that was, they, they, gave that quite a going over at that point.
I'm sure, a couple years after that, after nine 11, they
wouldn't be bothered about at all.
They would, they'd been looking out for passes to, Pakistan and Afghanistan
and, Saudi Arabia and things.
But, you always got asked if you were or had been a member
of
the
Communist
Party, didn't you?
Which it
Helen: was.
yeah.
You had to take a form that said you hadn't been involved in the
Nazi genocide of 1930, 30 to 45,
Andy: And the people who've been coming in for this so far have not been US citizens
themselves, but they have been people very close to American citizens, haven't they?
Or they have?
They have certainly been some people who have been there legally, for example.
Helen: So Ma Mahmud kil, who was a green cardholder, married
to an American citizen, right?
Who actually his wife had a baby this week and he wasn't
allowed to be there at the birth.
'cause he's still being held in Louisiana.
He was held for being a pro-Palestine activist.
so he's, if you have a green card holder, you have the right to live
and work in the us It's the, on the, on, on the steps to citizenship.
He's been held one of the notorious cases that someone deported was somebody who was
El Salvadorian, had an order from a judge ordering them not to be specifically not
to be deported, saying that they would
be
at risk.
So there are like, there are gradations of, worry and I, I know from people
who've had, who have non British passports that it is a much more
hasley experience
Adam: and it's been done in an entirely performative
cruelty way as well, isn't it?
it's not just a case of, oh, sorry, that was a mistake.
They're literally going, that's, he, was a gang member.
He screwed, he's
gotta
stay
there.
Helen: I think this is what worries people is obviously now
that there's this tension here.
Every single person who has any kind of, has experience at the American
border, we gonna hear about it.
But equally well, this is why I go back to my Russia experience.
Russia to deport me would not have made the slightest bit of difference to them.
They don't need my money in the way that, Nepal was very glad to have it.
They don't need diplomatic relations with us in the same way
that, France or Germany would be.
And the US is now in that position where if they put off some people
coming over by doing things that are ostentatiously cruel, that's
kind of part of their shtick now.
Andy: is this intentional or is it a side effect?
Helen: I think it's more if you give people power, they might end up using it.
You see what I mean?
Like the, incentives are all there to be more aggressive on the border.
That's, what the dicta is coming down from on high about.
and the Trump administration likes these stories.
As I wrote in the column, immigration is about the issue that Trump is polling on
the
most, actually the deportation program, which I think is disgustingly cruel
in an overt way, is actually has more favorables than the unfavorables.
That might change as people hear more details about it.
But polarization in the US is such that as soon as Donald Trump starts doing
it, a load of people really like it.
And then the reverse happens, which is lots of Democrats who thought
globalization and free trade were bad and right wing things have now suddenly
become much more in favor of them.
And there is this is one of the things that I think.
I, it's said so often about US politics that it almost becomes a truism, but
genuinely it is so polarized to the extent that half the country has,
takes its views on something almost straight down the line and the other
half takes it straight down the line.
On the other side, there isn't a lot of room for people to have
opinions that are outta line with their, tribe, whether that's the
red
or
the
blue
one.
Andy: And it's a very different tone to that taken by, most European
countries, except some on the European borders, which do like to show off,
Helen: Yeah, Victor Orban being a very exactly, I think he's, he is,
he's the European, pattern maker for most of what Trump is doing.
And he has said, I want, new Hungarians.
I don't want immigrants.
the reality is that every politician in the modern world is gonna have
to deal with the fact that people are on the move and that is very
destabilizing to their original citizens.
Border crossings have dramatically fallen under Trump, which most
Americans heartly approve of.
But I think the thing that is the case that I think is worth making is there
is a difference between having even a quite a tight immigration policy and the
kind of casual disrespect for the law, the courts, the constitution, the almost
trollish ness of that, and the reveling in the kind of punishment aspect of it.
So one of the things that's happened is they've tried to deport this
guy who they say is a member of MS 13, , which is a gang, and Trump
tweeted a photo of this guy's knuckle tattoos with MS 13 written over this.
So he's got like a cross and then one of them's a dub.
And he said, the cross means one, 'cause there's one God.
And there's, and he, there was no mention that this photo, he had photoshopped on
the MS 14 or presumably some underling who understands how to work Photoshop.
But that they have made the entirely, as far as I can see, a
fabricated case against this guy.
And they're now really very doily manipulated, photographic evidence to say,
this guy's got gang affiliated tattoos,
and, this is someone who is now in prison.
There's an order the Supreme Court says he should be brought back.
And they're just going, no, you won't,
can't
make us
Adam: the scale to
which we've gone in four
months.
Whenever you
stop and
look back
at it,
it does just make you think, wow, doesn't it?
that's a government fabricating evidence and being gleefully posting
it
from
the
president
himself.
Andy: What, so just to bring us back to Yes.
Summer holidays Yes.
For any British listeners.
What next for Ynk avoidance?
Helen: I'd be really interested to see whether or not people
decide they're gonna go anyway.
I, it'd be, really interesting to look at the conference market
Adam: We've
got
a World Cup coming up, which is co-hosted with Mexico and Canada,
Helen: Oh my God,
yes.
Adam: It just does
not
seem
possible at the moment.
Helen: Yeah, and exactly.
and, lots of, lots of academic conferences are having big conversations at the
moment about whether or not they feasibly can ask their staff to come
and do an a conference in America.
'cause if you're an international association of, physiologists or
whatever, is it really fair to your staff with less favorable passports
to
ask
them
to
come
to a
Adam: It's a stage on from Jacob re Mark saying anyone who's been critical
of the government can't come and give lectures to the civil service, isn't it?
You actually genuinely,
Helen: yeah.
people
are
Adam: to come
into the
country
to speak
at
academic
Andy: Will this be good for America's soft power,
Helen: do
we
think?
Andy: Or maybe not
Helen: Before we go, I just wanted to have one update from, the last episode when I
talked about Swift Bricks and I actually heard from Hannah born Taylor, who is the
campaigner behind the swift brick proposed legislation who thought I was sagging off
swift bricks and, I had to point out that.
I was really being slightly cautious about them.
She says that she also thinks bee bricks are a bit more, they do get a bit musty
and filled with things that aren't bees, but she does say swift bricks
won't ever risk blocking development and without them, there is no future for
birds who breed in building cavity since we're destroying their cavity nesting
habit without mitigating their loss.
I'd like to make a formal apology to the Swifts of Britain
Andy: Britain.
Oh.
'cause they, because they nested,
Adam: community,
Andy: because they Nessun in eaves basically.
And new houses don't have eaves
Helen: and without Eves, they just literally can't.
Can't survive.
she's been doing it all on her own as a Soler, unfunded campaigner.
and I think that's something that I, some of the most important changes
of British law have come from someone banging on for a long time
with very little support initially.
So I wouldn't, I wanted to give Hannah big
Andy: to, that.
that's lovely news.
Yeah.
I actually had a hunky fireman come around and put some swift boxes on my house.
Only the other day I.
Adam: Is that what firemen do these days?
Helen: You absolutely sure it wasn't a stripper gram, we, you just handed him
the swift boxes and he was very confused
Andy: took his braces off.
I just said, come on up the ladder.
Now for our final section of the show, we're gonna try something
daring, something bold, something.
Page 94 has never done before.
We're gonna make a section of a podcast about podcasts.
Wow.
Helen: If it goes badly, we can discuss it next week on a section about
Andy: for the section about podcasts.
About podcasts.
The rest is podcast.
This is gonna be the snake eating its own tail.
A long last as we've been threatening to do for years now.
before we start this, we're gonna be talking a little bit
about, the BBC for example.
We're gonna be talking about commercial podcasts and independent
podcasts and all of this.
let's have some declarations of interest right off the bat.
Before
we
go.
I make another podcast, which is on BBC sounds.
I also make a Radio four show, which is on BBC Sounds and releases a podcast.
That's me done Helen.
I
Helen: I make a Radio four show, which is also on BBC Sounds, and I
have appeared on every podcast ever
made.
Andy: Three.
Hail
Marys,
Adam,
Adam: I know
my
place.
Andy: I
Helen: sure this
Adam: been such, so much as
just
boasting.
Is
it
Helen: you
No, it's nice.
You're like, you are monogamous.
You are,
you're
faithful
to
this
Andy: podcast.
No
Adam: else wants me.
Yeah,
Helen: like the who was on this side of the aisle.
Andy: let's come to the New Zealand of it last year, the BBC proposed that,
they might put adverts on some of the podcasts that they make, if those podcasts
are listened to on platforms other than the BBC's own in-house one, which is
called
BBC
sounds.
Adam: So there's other platforms are things like Spotify,
Andy: Spotify, its, people
now.
Exactly.
a couple of weeks ago they said they had considered the idea
and they wouldn't be doing that.
That was partly due to a big backlash from lots of, independent or rather
commercial podcast producers, which said, if the BBC Wades in and releases
podcasts, the, they'll swamp the market and we won't make any money
anymore.
Yeah.
That's basically what they said.
Adam: And
that was specifically because when counted as BBC podcasts are
actually lots of very popular.
BBC radio shows such as, for instance, desert Island Discs, the Archers, which
get listening, figures in the millions and are obviously where all of the
advertising would flock for obvious
commercial
reasons if it was
able to
great
Andy: Radio four shows maybe, sort of Friday night satirical comedies?
No,
Helen: Oh, the news quiz is
Adam: No, I can't think
Andy: of,
Adam: of any.
There's one sort of Thursday
mornings,
but
Andy: yeah,
Yeah, dead ringers.
Dead ringers is really, good.
Anyway, they've said they're not going to do
it,
but
naturally the BBC does make lots of podcasts because
they make lots of shows to me
this
seems
natural.
Adam: there is this odd thing.
Can I give you just a brief history of basically of BBC
sounds, I think is, the way
to
go
in with
this.
BBC sounds was
launched
by James Pernille, remember him ex Labour cabinet minister, who then went off
to the BBC and was all in the running for the top job until he wasn't in the
way that you are at the BBC and has now disappeared outta the, outta the
equation, but not before launching BBC sounds, which was the very controversial
at the time, replacement for the BBC
radio
iPlayer.
And the specific and explicit reason for this was to try and get more young people
listening to what was rebranded as BBC
audio.
So it was done as a way of coming, Hey, if we make these prescribable
and digital, then people won't notice they're actually radio programs.
'cause young people don't listen to radio.
So there was a lot of, as we said, things like the Arches and Desert Island
disc and stuff moved over to become downloadable and prescribable to and
effectively compete in that market against lots and lots of podcasts.
Now, the BBC also did all sorts of.
Other good stuff in the audio market.
I'm thinking specifically a couple of documentary series.
Katherine N's, a very British cult, which is about the lighthouse movement,
which
is absolutely brilliant.
Rihanna CR Oxford's World of Secrets, which was about, Abercrombie and Fitch
and sexual abuse that was going on in that company for many years now.
I think resulting in, in, all sorts of criminal charges over in America.
were done in conjunction, so I know Rihanna did a sort of panorama
on the same topic and stuff.
So they're within the b bbc, but they are standalone kind of
podcast things in their own right.
There was lots of other spinoffs as well from brands like Newscast in America
and
all these
kinds of things.
As it's gone on, it's developed into an odd sort of hodgepodge of all sorts of
things that are a lot less obviously BBC.
And here I'm thinking of stuff like, Lily Allen and Nikita
Oliver's Miss Me, which is,
very popular, perfectly good podcast, but slightly hard to see quite
why this is a BBC thing and, not, sitting in the, commercial market.
it's two celebrities gossiping
basically,
Helen: it's the same argument that essentially played out with the BBC
website, which is and the main problem is that it's really good and people
like it and it doesn't have adverts on it, which makes it a more pleasant
user experience than most newspaper websites See, reach, for example.
podcast Pass.
And I think there is always a feeling that the BBC has to navigate this
line between what is an offering that means people support the concept
of the BBC versus what does the commercial bits of the sector feel.
Is it like a level of unfair competition bolstered by the kind of
license fee and the centrality of the
BBC
to
British
culture?
Andy: I find it such a weird argument that the BBC should only
serve brown rice in its canteen.
I really do.
Is this entertainment or is it not?
There are some risks that the BBC can take.
Things like making detectorists where you say, this is a show
about two guys standing in a field going beep and finding a metal cap.
maybe more commercial aggressive rivals have taken a punt on that maybe.
But I just think this idea that the BBC shouldn't be trying to entertain people is
really
weird.
Adam: I'm not saying they shouldn't be doing that.
I'm saying that it's one of those areas a bit like, local radio and,
specifically local news online, where suddenly you've got a, very
direct kind of competition going on with, local papers who were trying
to, go di go digital as well.
So it's one of those things where there's, there is a constant
fight over it, a constant balance, however you feel about that.
It's also happened.
You mentioned then newspapers are piling in, national newspapers
are piling into the podcast
market as
well.
the male online has enormous number of podcasts.
most of them about women being murdered in horribly gruesome ways.
it seems to me they're
cornering
that
Andy: truth.
Yeah.
stick to, what,
Yeah.
Adam: the Telegraph has got in there as well.
very good Ukraine cast and also a podcast with, Alison Pearson
called
Planet
Normal.
Helen: and the daily, the Daily Tea with, Camilla Toni and Kamala Ahmed.
I think one of the things that's happened is, this is part of my broader
analysis of what's happened to the media is we moved from institutions
to influencers or personalities.
And so the feeling has, been that if you're any, if you're the BBC, if
you're a newspaper for whatever it is, you should build up personal brands
and they should have a podcast, which is a bit like the book of the film.
It's like the podcast of the person, if So if you've got a columnist in, you're a
newspaper and they're a big deal, you will also find them a podcast vehicle, right?
The Atlantic where I work has just given, David from is one of my most
popular writers, his own video podcast for exactly that reason, because it's
like, why wouldn't you max out this person that people like in across
all media formats, which wasn't
the
way
people were really
thinking It happens to podcast as well.
Podcasters get asked to do books there's a book by Stephen Bartlett,
who very popular Diary of a CEO podcast, which I think is comfortably,
maybe the worst book I've ever read.
It has the 13 rules and the 19 buckets, and it's just, it was too early to being
written by chat GPT, but honestly it was, just a brand extension bear, or as much
relationship to a book as I do to a horse.
The same thing.
Complaint has been happening actually over at Substack, the newsletter website
that was pitched as being a place for writers to build their audience.
What's happened now, because it's been really popular is
like Big Beasts have moved in.
So you have somebody who's got a following from somewhere else, and now
they do the substack of the brand along with Side, the podcast of the brand
and the column of the brand and the TV
show
of
the
Andy: brand.
This is what people say about celebrities writing children's
books that they, muscle in.
They tack up a lot of space.
They get a lot of publicity opportunities that others wouldn't get.
I think there's a pretty fair case to be made for
all
of
that.
Helen: fundamentally people are buying and consuming their work.
So I hope that there is a certain sort of Darwinian justice, which
if the something is bad, it
can't
go
on
forever.
Adam: can I?
At this point?
Andy: we'd
like to, again, you're subtweeting us.
Thanks very much.
Adam: Can
I
at this point, bring us on to phase three of my history B
BBC sounds,
which is the other odd thing that started to go on when the BBC were considering
putting advertising on their programs whilst on external, podcast providers.
They also started buying in lots and lots of really successful commercial
podcasts and running them on, BBC
sounds
without adverts.
and this was, some odd choices there.
they've got help by sex in my boss.
Excellent podcast featuring Jordan North.
Seems to come in about the same time that Jordan North Left Radio one.
Not under the best of circumstances 'cause he was yanked off air and, there was no
announcement made about where he was going until it emerged.
He was going to join a commercial rival, Gary Lineker last November was brought
in to do, his incredibly successful rest.
His brands, they've got football, which is specifically Gary Lineker and Alan
Sheer and Micah Richards, who are of course the team from Match of the Day at
the same time that the BBC was running into all sorts of problems and trying
to gently maneuver as he's now admitted.
Gary Lineker out of his birth at Match of the Day because it was
causing them all sorts of problems with impartiality in things.
it's, in terms of joined up, BBC, it's, it seems slightly odd in that way.
And
also,
these are commercial ones that are coming in one way and
they're trying to compete with
them on
another market.
Now the next phase, which is the most recent one, is that what, at the same time
as saying they weren't gonna run adverts.
On these external podcast providers, BBC has also quietly launched
a new podcast, a Formula One podcast, the inside track which
goes out
not on BBC sounds.
It goes on the commercial ones.
It has adverts in it both in the UK and abroad.
And it carries BBC branding and you have to look quite carefully to
see that the BBC branding actually belongs to BBC studios, which is
that mysterious commercial entity
that
is part
of
the
BBC
sort of when it's convenient to be and not when it isn't convenient to
be
as
in
this case.
and the feeling certainly in the commercial podcast, sector is that
this is the BBC very much trying to have its cake and eat it.
Andy: the thing.
That's interesting about this is that we are treating radio and
podcasts, like they're similar kinds of show and they're really not.
and at the very top end, very good podcasts and very good radio shows
probably are quite similar because they both take quite a lot of work
editing and production to make.
They might not sound like it because podcasting is traditionally a more
scrappy and conversational medium.
but actually you look at shows like.
In our time, which is the most radio for of Radio four shows.
But that is like a really, long running podcast.
And that's partly because podcasts also thrive on repeatability and
having the capacity to make lots and lots of different episodes.
It doesn't mean they're better than six passers.
It means there are different kind of show.
Yeah.
And I think it's a bit odd treating these things as though they're the
same, just because they're both audio.
Helen: The thing that's interesting about in our time, which I love
by the way, is that there are, it is essentially like a long running
podcast in which there are only two participants, and those two participants
are Melvin Bragg and an academic, right?
It's just one academic being barked at about like the Medicis or,
theorems or whatever it might be.
And they're in the same role every, there's a familiarity to
it, that I think really, works.
But you are right, like linear radio is it still attracts pretty
whacking great big audiences though.
crucial thing about linear radio is it also helps people discover things.
You might switch on the radio at a time and hear something you
otherwise wouldn't have done.
And I think the, worry I, everyone I talk to in the podcast sector is.
How do you recreate that for investigative podcasts?
And people have thought about very, innovative ways.
I think the Girlfriends is an example.
I think that's one where they did initial limited run and now
they're producing new episodes.
so people are really thinking about the format point.
But you are right, the format is as important as the content in some respects.
and that is also a function of the platform.
Sorry, I
sound
like I'm about to give a keynote,
don't I?
Adam: And that,
that I
think is where it gets very muddled with BBC sounds.
'cause if you open your BBC Amp Sounds home page, you end up with this
extraordinary hodgepodge of things, which are, long running podcasts along within
our time, but along with the world that won or last night's PM and things, they
all
bundled
in together.
Helen: I mentioned in the previous section that, about
heat pumps and wasn't, is there
not
a heat
pump
related to
Adam: control?
There is a, this very week a heat pump related control, which kind of
demonstrates some of the difficulties that the BBC have with this.
So
this one's
not a BBC podcast.
If you're keeping track of all of these, if you're keeping a tally, it's
an independent one, which is called the Happy, happy Heat Pump Podcast.
And I wish listeners, you could see Andy's little eyes lighting
up
Andy: I
have
listened
to
the
Happy
Adam: pumps Of course you
have
because you are net zero dad.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
it's gone.
It's over.
Sorry about that.
because, Evan Davis announced on Tuesday morning, the BBC worries, it may be
seen as steering into areas of public controversy, which I would argue was
more, areas of public controversy steering into, into that particular market.
Helen: it was co-hosted with, somebody from the industry, wasn't it?
And the industry wants subsidies for, heat pumps to be installed in people's houses.
And I think that's the blurry bit as far as I see with that one.
But it seems to be everybody I've, heard from, not just Andy, actually, there are
other people out in the wild, it turns out I know who are interested in heat pumps.
And it was really informative.
It was just a really useful bread and butter informative.
what is this
Andy: thing
Yeah, it was interested in
yeah, it was like five minutes of time on does this work in a
flat, do they work in the cold?
Like
Adam: informing and educating
people
It was,
Andy: It was, yeah, so
Adam: them and the sort of things that the BBC
maybe
ought to
be
doing.
But
Andy: I can see where the difficulty came in because the Cohost was a guy
with the implausible name of Bean
Beland
Amazing.
Yep.
No notes.
He's just terrific.
And he's the head of the Heat Pump Federation.
So naturally they have an interest in propagating knowledge and and
making people aware of heat pumps.
Evan Davis was very clear at the start of every episode saying, look, I work for the
BBC, this is not a BBC podcast and we're not trying to promote anything at all.
So it sounds like the, attitude that's been taken is that even talking
about these things is promoting them, unreasonable what we've
Adam: up with then is the situation where we've got podcasts out there,
which have been presented by, well-known BBC names, saying I'm not with the BBC,
we've
got branded podcasts, which are out there but are made by BBC studios.
So aren't the BBC, even
though they
sound like the
And then we've also got on the BBCA load of podcasts which aren't made by the
BBC and are nothing to do with the BBC.
But the BBC is piggybacking on the back of them.
So do you see what I mean about slightly confusing hodgepodge
and
a
lot
of conflicting
things
Andy: going
on
but very well then they contradict themselves, they contain multitudes.
is
Helen: this
Andy: do we, need order in the podcasting world?
Helen: Is
this something I we set
up
for?
Surely the what is behind this is the idea that there is a lot of
scrutiny on the BBC and particularly over net zero and about anything
that's seen as being climate related.
Andy: and a lot of the criticism, some of it is always valid, obviously the
BBC is a huge organization that gets plenty wrong, but a lot of it is code
for I would like the BBC to be completely
defunded.
Adam: Yeah.
Andy: is
the other
thing
that we're
not saying.
Adam: But there are also, issues within there about, fair
competition with commercial sector, which came up again this month.
And this is back to radio, which as you say is still proper linear radio
still really, popular out there.
One of the things stations that was really popular out there is the brilliantly named
Boom Radio, which plays old golden oldies essentially for, for readers of a certain
age.
A bit like It's
Andy: accessible on yachts.
As the boom swings across, that's when you get the brief period of
Adam: That's the boy.
Yeah.
yeah,
Andy: The boy.
Yeah.
Good.
Carry on.
Adam: boom
Radio.
Yeah, no, it's doing that golden oldie stuff, which you might remember older
listeners Radio Two used to do a lot of before, moving into a slightly
younger demographic with people like Vernon Kay on it, as well as Boom
Radio, which basically has David Diddy Hamilton, who knew he was still alive.
Simon Bates, who used to do our junior looking at me blankly.
You're too
Helen: young,
Andy: this is This is like when Helen, this is like when Helen
talks about American members of the cabinet, who I'm sure are very
important, but I just have never heard
of.
Oh,
Helen: I've never felt so young and millennial.
Tell me more about our elderly radio presenters.
Adam: the
other stories about elderly Radio One
presenters are
much
less
pleasant and none
of them
are
featuring on Boom Radio or anyone else these days, I'm afraid.
but there's also, grace Sits Radio, which is the one that Ken Bruce, famously,
absconded from, Radio two to come present on both of these massive, success stories.
BBC essentially has looked at them and said, hang on.
That's quite a good gap in the market.
And proposed launching effectively BBC Radio two and a half, which was
gonna be the same sort of, hits from the fifties, sixties and seventies.
and aimed at an older audience.
Ofcom, the broadcasting watch log have stepped in and
said, no, you can't do that.
You, if you neglected this audience and someone else stepped in, you now
don't get to, to step in and, take that back away from them, that they've
said That would be unfair Competition.
Interestingly, at the same time, I'd miss this story.
They, they, let through a couple of other Radio one extensions, they're
called Radio One Dance and Radio One Anthems, and Radio Three Unwind, which
is classic chill out music of the, sort of kind that I thought classic FM
was
set up
to
do back in the
day.
But there you go.
The one they didn't let through was an extension of Radio five Sports Extra.
'cause they said that would compete unfairly with, talk sports
specifically in that market.
So there is re it's as well as various people with undeclared
commercial interests who are complaining about this stuff.
There is also a broadcasting watchdog out there who is, trying to ensure some
kind of level of playing field for it.
yeah, you don't look
as happy
about
Andy: that.
No, I just can't.
Adam: about heat pumps just
Andy: so hard to ensure a level playing field.
I just what a complex
set
of
decisions they
must
Adam: face.
it is.
But I will put in a word for the idea of an everything platform because
I think the most irritating thing in the world, and I think listeners
might sympathize with this, is you can't bloody find anything these days.
God, I'm
old.
But no,
Andy: we get do this
on
Boom radio.
Adam: I spend half my life going,
where
can I watch this program?
And you have to Google it in order to find out whether it's on Netflix
Helen: or, may I help you or now
Okay.
There's a web website.
No, there's a website called just watch.com.
Okay.
And you just put in the name of it and it tells you where a
film or TV program is available.
And like which one's it, where it's free, which
ones it's paying.
Andy: right?
No, this
is there anything
Adam: If away
Helen: this podcast, I've helped you locate
Andy: locate your
Helen: binge watch.
Just watch.com.
Andy: is
too
a
lot
easier
Adam: though when there were only
four
buttons
on
the
telly.
Andy: We're going to end this right now and just say that one thing that
is available very easily is Private Eye Magazine, private hyen I co uk.
That's the website you should go to get a subscription.
You won't need all of these channels and gadgets.
With a lovely edition of Private Eye.
subscriptions are available, very reasonably priced, the
magazine is out every fortnight.
Thank you for listening to this show, which has been, produced as
always by Matt Hill of Rethink Audio.
The only other thing we have to say is that we are going to be at the
Cambridge Literary Festival this Saturday, the 26th of April, 2025.
For future listeners, sorry you missed it.
tickets in the room are sold out streaming tickets to see us, do our thing.
Adam's prepared his
dance.
Helen's gonna do magic tricks.
It's gonna be great.
the three of us and Ian are gonna be there on Saturday.
You can get tickets to watch the streaming event in the room, at the
Cambridge Literature Festival website.
It's gonna be great fun.
We are accepting a few final questions, for our q and a session, so send
those to podcast@privatehyen.co.uk.
We'd love to hear, a
few
last
questions
before we
do the
Adam: approach.
Where
can I watch Passport to
Pimlico for free.
Andy: it.
Goodbye.