(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.)

[Speaker 2]
What's up, what's up? Welcome to Black Healing Remix the podcast. This is YOLO and I have the pleasure of sharing with you our latest episode which features some pretty dope folks y'all.

This episode is about exploring masculinity and the intersection of mental health and we have Emmy Award and Tony Award winning actor Courtney B. Vance. We have minister and therapist Dr. Robin L. Smith and Devin Michael Lowe who's the founder of the Black Trans Travel Fund all in conversation with me and Natalie about the intersections of this thing we call masculinity. What is it? How does it look?

How does it feel? How do we define it? Through this discussion we explored what it looks like to create safe spaces where black men can connect with their full humanity, where we can reimagine masculinity, where we can expand masculinity and just cultivate more joy and healing for black men and masculine folks across the gender spectrum.

It was eye-opening, it was dope, and I think you're gonna love it. Check it out and don't forget to like and subscribe afterwards. Peace.

[Speaker 1]
I have the privilege of introducing somebody who you probably have seen so many times that you think is your uncle. You're like, that's my friend, I already know him. And so I would like to formally introduce you to Mr. Courtney B. Vance. He is an award-winning stage super star. You may have seen him in things like The Preacher's Wife or as Johnny Cochran in The People vs.

OJ Simpson. Mr. Courtney B. Vance has won everything.

He got two Emmys, a Critics' Choice Award, the Black Reel TV Award, multiple NAACP awards.

[Speaker 3]
And he married Angela Bassett.

[Speaker 1]
I just want to say, this man be doing all that and then some, and he also got the nerve to be married to Angela Bassett. I said, what can he not do? I said, so we gotta talk to him about black masculinity because he clearly knows some things, right?

So excited to have you here. Appreciate you. And we have some other amazing folks which we'd like to introduce you to.

[Speaker 2]
Yeah, absolutely. So I have the honor of introducing Dr. Robin L. Smith.

Give it up for Dr. Robin. Come on up. Come on up.

Hi, darling. Bless you. Thank you.

So, you know, it's interesting. Dr. Robin, first of all, on top of being a best-selling author, New York Times best-selling number one author, you know, and a licensed psychologist and a minister as well. I'm going to tell you something like for many folks, you might know from me, Dr. Robin, well, I remember watching Dr. Robin on Oprah back in the day. Like, you know what I mean? And we was getting free. We was like, what she say?

Let me watch the show.

[Speaker 1]
Yes, yes.

[Speaker 2]
And I remember I was like, who is this lady spitting knowledge on my life? You don't know me. What is going on?

But in other pieces, I want to mention your name as well. She's also the author of Lies at the Altar, The Truth About Great Marriages. That's our juicy book.

[Speaker 1]
So I feel like some of us need to move on today.

[Speaker 2]
As well as Hungry, The Truth About Being Full, which we just had a whole conversation about this, too. I want to bring that into space. She's also a sought-after speaker, experienced media personality, host of Sirius XM's The Dr. Robin Show. And she also is, of course, the co-author of the amazing book, which I'm really excited to talk to you both about, The Invisible Ache. And I will say one thing, I will say, Dr. Robin, I appreciated it when I was reading through the book. I was like, oh, wait, Dr. Robin's going in a little bit on the system. So I was like, oh, I like this. I love the systemic analysis. She brings that kind of broader structural analysis that sometimes some of our mental health people don't always bring in.

So I want to appreciate you and welcome you to the stage. Thank you for being here. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
And of course, our last guest who will be joining the panel, we want to invite Devin Michael. Devin, come on up here.

[Speaker 2]
Come on up.

[Speaker 1]
Devin is a community organizer invested in the liberation of Black trans community. He has a whole bunch of analysis. Go critique and tell us all the things that we need to know.

He is the executive director and founder of the Black Trans Travel Fund, an organization that provides travel-based resources and Black trans women on a global scale.

[Speaker 2]
Devin is also an OG being a member. Before I was the full-time staff, Devin was helping us doing stuff. We talked about this and we've never met in person.

So this is really our first opportunity because we have been doing digital, really organizing and witnessing your brilliance and organizing across that time. So I'm just really honored to have you here. Thank you.

I'm honored to be here.

[Speaker 1]
Okay, let's jump in.

[Speaker 2]
Come on, let's jump in. Give a round of applause for our panelists.

[Speaker 1]
Sit down. So, welcome. Wanted to invite you to get landed and grounded.

One of the things that we always do at BEAM, y'all may be familiar with the feelings wheel. It is this beautiful, dynamic image with all the feelings, right? And in our work, we always invite people to practice naming their feelings because we recognize that for many Black folks, us being able to verbalize how we feel is very foreign.

That might be a thing we privately do, but it's not something we get to do in public. And so as an act of rebelliousness, as an act of liberation, I would love to invite each of you to share with us what you're feeling in this present moment. Recognizing that feelings are typically one word, so we don't have to tell the story, but you can just acknowledge, are you feeling excited, sad?

And we can be with you in holding that experience. And it's an opportunity for us to not have to react, right? Very often, if somebody says, oh, I don't feel good, we go, oh, girl, what's going on, right?

We act like it's the worst day and it's just a feeling. And feelings change. They are information.

And so we get to check in with each of you. Devon, I'd love to start with you.

[Speaker 4]
Yeah, sure. One word. I'm going to go with, I'm both excited and anxious.

[Speaker 1]
Mm-hmm.

[Speaker 4]
Both things.

[Speaker 1]
Okay. Appreciate you. Thank you.

Dr. Robin? Full. Mm-hmm.

Full. Okay. Mr. Vance, how are you feeling?

[Speaker 3]
I feel very excited. Anytime I have a chance to, oh, it's wonderful to be here without having a mic in my hand. It's wonderful to be here with my sister from another mister.

We just, we love to share. And this is what we do. So we're just excited to begin.

That's tall.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. Amazing.

[Speaker 2]
That's tall. Yeah. Well, how am I feeling?

I'm excited. I mean, I'm thrilled to have this conversation. I'm thrilled to be on this panel with so many amazing folks who I respect in terms of how you've been having the conversation.

I'm ready for the juiciness. That's what I am. So anxious.

I would say anxious and ready.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. You want to jump in with the first question?

[Speaker 2]
Yeah. Let's come into it. So we're here to talk about masculinity, maleness, mental health, right?

And I think that like that, those three terms when brought together come up a lot of things for a lot of different people. So let me just start there. What's the first things that comes to your mind in this moment when we say mental health, masculinity, black men?

What's some of the first things that come up to your mind? And just sharing that like, let that be a springboard for our conversation. So I'll open that up to anyone on the panel who would like to start there.

[Speaker 4]
I mean, the first word I think of is vulnerability.

[Speaker 2]
Sure.

[Speaker 4]
Yeah. Sometimes like associated with the lack of, you know, it's my immediate thought.

[Speaker 2]
So can you tell us more? Tell us more about the vulnerability. Like, how do you connect that?

[Speaker 4]
Yeah. Well, I think about mental health for black men and I think how few spaces there are in which we show up and feel like we can show up whole, like feel supported, be able to vulnerably share when we are feeling sad or anxious or hurt and all these things. And like, we so often contribute masculinity to like strength and stoicism and power and like having it all together.

And the reality is like, we're whole people. And so like, we don't always have it all together. And there's often not safe spaces for us to be held through our pain and vulnerability.

And so that's like the immediate thoughts that I have. I love that. Thank you.

[Speaker 1]
You know, I, when I think of vulnerability and I'm so grateful for you for this moment that we're co-creating. And as Courtney said, when he and I have the privilege of sitting next to each other, it's special. It's really special.

When I think of masculinity and black men, I think there's a quote that I use that says, starve the lie and feed the truth. And so I think of the prison, figuratively and literally, that many black men, boys and men have been placed in because of lies. So I'm thinking, you know, what, what lie do we need to starve today so that we can feed the truth?

The other thought that comes up for me is, you know, I talk about that we all have holes. H-O-L-E-S. And I don't know if you're acquainted, and that's what you're talking about, with your holes.

It's like we're ashamed that we have holes. But our holes are a part of our humanity. And our humanity has been robbed because of slavery and sexism and racism and hatred of that which is different that we don't understand.

But so we all have holes, and we are longing to be whole, W-H-O-L-E, which is a holy H-O-L-Y journey. And so today for me is about inviting all of us, but particularly black boys and men, and those who identify with the trap of masculinity. We've made it just too small.

And so when you're talking about, you know, the feelings that are not permitted, not allowed, I think today is about giving ourselves new permission to be with our holes, longing to be whole, which is a holy experience. All right.

[Speaker 2]
The minister jumped out. I felt it.

[Speaker 3]
That's my girl. I didn't know. I mean, I was raised in Detroit.

Whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop. You know, we were, we were, my parents were all about education. And, you know, I was just, I was everything.

Achievement made everything right. Harvard and Yale and all. But I didn't, I didn't really, you know, the masculinity, I didn't really think about it because I was an athlete and I was a student.

I was doing, you know, doing, doing things. And so when I became, and I didn't know what I wanted to do. And so I went to, when I got to Harvard, I said, we'll all figure it out together.

And everybody seemed to know. And so I said, I want to try, I want to try theater because with theater, every time I do a show, I meet a new group of people. And I'm talking to the students, we would figure it all out together.

And so I, I went and, so I thought, you know, into this acting thing. And I said, acting, I thought it was, you know, you're doing voices, just doing hello, how are you doing? I thought it was, I thought it was a thing.

I thought that's what it was. That's what it was about. And I went to Shakespeare and Company in Lenox, Massachusetts.

And I got a Ford Foundation grant to be an apprentice. And the, the artistic director stood me up in front of folks. All the apprentices, there were 15 of us.

And said, she said, now, I want you all to, we were all standing up there. And all the company was standing, teachers and everybody was standing, sitting out there. And she said, now, I want you, her name was Tina Packer.

Tina said, now, I want you all to, to each of you, one moment to tell me two things about yourself that you want us to know. And I said, God, you know what I'm going to say? And then she said, well, hold on, hold on.

Then I want you to tell us two things about yourself you don't want us to know. I said, hold on. What is this acting thing?

And so I, you know, I really had to, it was so difficult. I had to shift my mind to, to access, I mean, because I was, I was an achiever. I was, my mindset was, I can, you know, check off my list and keep it going.

And this was something she was asking me to do to begin the process of being. Who are you? What do you feel?

How are you? And then put that into your situation. And I was adrift and so much so.

And we were in the woods. We were at, in Lenox, Massachusetts at Edith Wharton's estate. And we were deep in the woods, staying, staying communally, you know, with, with 15 other people.

But, but it took, you know, and so the, the stables where we were staying were really, really deep in the woods. And so I was so, I had to get out of there. And so I'm afraid of the dark.

I'm afraid of the woods. And it was so, I was so stressed. And I said, I will venture out into the woods and feel my way tree by tree.

And the lions and tigers and bears, oh my, were all around me. I knew it. And so I found my way to the road and ran down the road a mile or so and got out there and just screamed.

Ah, okay. And I did that and I came back and felt my way back into the room. Got into my bed and just, next morning we were up and we were in class at 6.30 or 7 o'clock in the morning. We were in class and we were laying, touching sound. Hum, hum, hum. And I was, you know, I heard somebody, two or three people down from me whisper saying, hey guys, did you, did you hear that moose out there last night?

And I, you know, it took me, you know, so much to shift, took me that entire summer to shift my mind to recognize that my emotions had to be a part of my life. And my emotions were not a part of my life. So I can only imagine, so eventually they became, I could read the phone book and things would just go right through me.

And it's become, that's when you work hard so that your weakness becomes your strength. And it is, and so I can only imagine someone, because now I look for, when I'm looking for work, I'm looking for something that, oh, I feel, I see that, I see that, I can read that, okay, that's the heat of the scene, that's the heat of the piece, okay, I'm going to do that. But I can only imagine us, men, who have no outlet for their emotion.

They have nowhere to go to actually release something. Either through a project, through a conversation, through, and so what do you do with all of that passion, all of that angst, all of that gifting? Where do we go when we have nowhere to go with who we are?

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 3]
That was a long story to say.

[Speaker 2]
No, but it was a brilliant story, right? And I really want to draw those themes in because I feel like you all are telling different aspects of a similar story, right? So I hear Devin, you're talking about the lack of spaces for vulnerability, right?

What does it mean when we have black men say there's not a space where it's safe for me to be vulnerable, right? And then Dr. Robbins talking about the lie, right, the lie of masculinity. And then we have Courtney, Mr. Vance, you're bringing in this piece about really what sounds like almost this journey of masculinity, right?

Like, you know, being in a space where I'm not attuned to my feelings, now I got to go into the darkness of that, right, the radical, beautiful, because the darkness is also where the seed sprouts and where growth happens, right? And so I have to go through that to feel my way and how that can be horrifying for a lot of people. There's so much to stay in a comfortable place, even if it's painful.

And so I think that you're all telling different dimensions of the story and it makes me think about something that I think is very connected to this, a story I often tell about my godson, right? Learning how to walk, like, now what? God, Jesus, no, it was 19 years ago.

Okay, he's wrong. 19 years ago, right? And learning how to walk, and I remember we were at a barbecue.

And you know, like, you know, the little toddlers, they learn how to walk, so they're grabbing onto things and they're kind of running towards you and, like, they're gonna grab onto something else. And at one point, he sees me, he's trying to come to me, but then he stumbles and falls, right? Doesn't hurt himself, but he starts crying, right?

Like, just kind of just startled. And I go to pick him up. And immediately in the room, women and men, tell me, put him down.

He gotta learn how to be a man. You're gonna coddle him. Put him down.

What you doing? You can't baby him. And I'm like, you don't know how to walk and poop on the toilet yet, but you need to be a man?

Yeah. What makes you fix your face to say that? And I think about, that is very connected to what happens to a lot of boys in our country, right?

[Speaker 1]
Absolutely.

[Speaker 2]
Is that very early on you receive the message, shut down your emotions and your feelings. Honey, I can't even speak four words, but y'all telling me I need to learn how to be a man. My God.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah.

[Speaker 2]
What is happening, and then what happens, we have adult men, who now have lived, who started, that message started when I was starting to walk. Now I'm 40, 50 years old, and somebody's like, well, why don't you talk about your feelings? Well, y'all told me not to talk about my feelings.

For 40, 50 years. And I think that that's a big part of what happens in the socialization of many of us, and Dr. Rob, I'd love to hear you kind of weigh in on this. I know this is a big part of your work.

[Speaker 1]
Yeah. No, it's so true. Every place where we go, I talk about when little girls fall, we pick them up and we kiss their booboo and we ask them what color band-aid they want, and then the boy falls, and we scold him, we shame him, we blame him for being human.

Because that's for having holes. For being hurt when he falls the same way that a girl falls. And so there is a systemic poison.

And that's really what it is. It's a poison that tells people, and I think it's even whatever dropped a phone, the reason I want to talk about that is boys have been distracted. So like that sound could have gotten us distracted.

Boys have been distracted from their own humanity. And not only from their pain, but from their joy. I want us to remember that black joy and masculine joy is something as you were talking about it is not only the vulnerability because part of vulnerability is not just pain and not just tears, because tears are our teacher.

You know, when people start to cry and they say, excuse me I'm sorry what are we doing? If we put sunglasses on when we are crying, what are we doing? We are saying that this part of me has no space and no place but it is also true for joy.

So that toughness like I don't really smile and I will tell you, I won't say who it is, but I was in a group of all black men giving a talk and they were so serious and sober and I told them a couple of things. One is that I never kiss and tell so that they could not only feel safe to share their pain but also their imagination and their joy and their expectation and so I want us to realize that a part of reclaiming our divine birthright and particularly for boys and men and those who are socialized in that way it is to also not just reclaim, because for many people it is claiming anew that I have the divine birthright to have joy.

[Speaker 5]
Hello, I'm Donnie Frazier, BEAM's digital content and community engagement consultant. I'm thrilled to tell you about our program Black Masculinity Reimagined. This community and skills building initiative supports black men and masculine folks in addressing mental health and community violence.

We offer events both virtually and in person across the country where participants can learn new strategies for connection, coping, and self-care while working to dismantle patriarchy and support collective black mental health. Learn more at BEAM.com.

[Speaker 1]
And I just want to say one other thing about suffering. We know how to suffer. We are so good at suffering and there are reasons why we are good at suffering.

But one of the things that Courtney and I talk about in The Invisible Age is about breaking the, and these are my words, but breaking the addiction to suffering. It's an addiction that we don't understand. So whether it is as women and we say oh girl I'm so tired and we never think well I have a choice about what I'm doing that drains my tank.

And the same is true for men that there is a piece of what does it mean to decide that I am not going to be married to my misery. We gonna have to get a divorce. Or we have to renegotiate the contract.

Sometimes we don't have to leave but we have to leave the way we are being with ourselves. When Courtney talked about running in the woods there's a quote that says wherever I run I meet myself there. So it doesn't really matter where I run because I know for me I have decided I'm gonna move I live in Philadelphia but I'm gonna move I'm gonna pack I'm gonna go somewhere and then I get wherever I'm going 3,000 miles away and I open my luggage and guess what's there all my issues they're all there waiting for me and so we cannot outrun nor are we meant to outrun and if we understand that our holes are our longing to be whole which is a holy journey it is not something to separate ourselves from it is something to acquaint ourselves with where do I hurt not do I hurt but where where do I hurt I love that invitation for curiosity yes because in our work this is one of the things that we always encourage people to do instead of assuming we know everything about ourselves let's sit in the understanding that there's plenty of things I have no idea about there are things about myself that I seek to learn and it is only in the curiosity that we can do that and only in the moment because what I know about me now may not be true this afternoon you know when people say I've gotten delivered and I will say sometimes and sometimes not you mean in this moment you are delivered from anger or bitterness or self hatred but not the next moment because I've got to live that next moment and I may still be delivered or I might find myself shackled again

[Speaker 2]
alright now say it say it for woo woo moment all the wisdom and the brilliance is being brought down there's so many elements to this piece and I want to nuance it a little bit I want to lift up and really kind of re-invite us to in a moment of accountability to as we talked about like this prison we talked about the lack of vulnerability and then we talked about this example the story of like you know my godson we have to recognize how we all are culpable in creating the prison of masculinity for folks right that like even as I think about it my relationships as a queer person right that I've dated men where I've tried I've seen that re-inscribe itself right I've had men even come to me and say like well YOLO you need to let me be a man and I was like huh but then it was an interesting conversation because I was like well what is it how can I let you be something that you already are why do you believe that being a man or being masculine is something that happens outside of you and not the core being of your spirit and why am I responsible for it and like you know but I think that and I think it goes back to the ways in which men and masculine folks are taught that like what you do makes you a man not who you are right and I think that like I want to complicate it because I think it happens across sexual orientation across gender right that like the ways in which those psychological trap of masculinity because I think that like it's one form of masculinity but we also have really beautiful forms of masculinity in our communities too right not all of it's the rigidity and the hiding and the fear but we've lost a lot of that in this kind of cultural moment right Devin I'd love to talk to you a little bit about this when we talk about masculinities right like how do we nuance this conversation around masculinity and mental health because sometimes it can be very cis centric some heterosexual centric right what are the nuances we need to hold and bring in

[Speaker 4]
for transmasculine folks specifically oh my goodness I have so much to say regarding this topic so I'ma try to be mindful of time but I'ma bring it in but yeah there's just so many things that are specific to the transmasculine experience around mental health that people I think are just not aware of you know for transmasculine folks have some of the highest rates of depression and suicide attempts within the entire LGBT community as a whole like with suicidal ideation being at like more than 50% easily so it's like you know while there are trans people who come from loving homes you know that are supported by their families too many of us are not too many of us are bullied by our families we're you know forced to leave our homes early if we're not kicked out altogether and so then that leaves so many black trans men that I know who are you know caught at the intersections of anti blackness and transphobia to where now they're dealing with housing insecurity job insecurity food insecurity you know when you are you can't get a job because you're trans or you can't keep a job because you're experiencing transphobia in the workplace I myself have had to leave jobs from experiencing transphobic harassment then you can't pay your rent and when you can't pay your rent you don't have a roof over your head then the deterioration of your mental health for anybody who doesn't have a roof over their head is almost inevitable you know and so I really want to touch on that point but then there's also this really huge component that I think is often like not acknowledged which is the literal physical violence that trans masculine people are experiencing both you know by regular strangers but also our like domestic partners also by police like it's just ridiculous you know and all of those things are contributing to our mental health I live in New York City which is supposedly a very progressive city right and prior to me founding the Black Trans Travel Fund I was running for many years social support groups specifically for trans masculine people focused around redefining and centering healthy masculinity and primarily the people that attended my group were mostly all black trans masculine folks and the conversations that I had the experiences that like the community is having has just broken my heart week after week to like have these boys come in

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