- A lot of guys go into entrepreneurship.

- Okay.

- Because the SEAL community,

I think the special operations communities at

large

throughout the military breeds an entrepreneurial

spirit.

Just you have a ton of autonomy to make decisions

within your small unit.

You have left and right limits,

but within that you have a lot of autonomy

to make decisions.

- Yeah.

- And through that you gain a lot of experience

operating in the gray zone,

and trying to figure things out,

and being good at leading.

- Yeah.

- And that naturally lends itself to

entrepreneurship.

- This is the Made to Advance podcast.

I'm your host, Brian Aulick.

We're here to inspire and equip you for your best

future.

Well, welcome everybody.

It is so good to be with you.

And hey, before we get started today,

I wanna ask you a favor.

I ask this, I think every single episode,

but I'm gonna ask again.

If you're a fan of Made to Advance,

please rate and review us.

I know you're listening right now and you're like,

this isn't a great time.

All you have to do is hit pause, jump on there,

and click the rate or review button.

But that really, really does help Made to Advance

get a little bit more exposure,

get out to more people and make a greater

difference.

So please help us out, bring some encouragement

that way.

And then also I've been sharing this lately.

We've got an email, mta@engedichurch.com,

mta@engedichurch.com.

And so if you've got any feedback for us,

questions, guest ideas, you name it, email me,

love to hear those.

If you've got any encouragement,

I'll share that with our team.

We would absolutely delight to hear from you.

But today I have my friend with me, Kevin Rodrigo,

who served as a Navy SEAL for 14 years

and now is the co-founder of an investment firm

called Starfield Front.

Kevin is married and has four very cute kids,

which I can say because I get to see them

most every Sunday at church.

I've really been looking forward

to this conversation with Kevin.

I know you are going to enjoy it.

And so Kevin, welcome to the show.

- Thanks for having me, Brian.

- So good to have you.

I know that I kind of shared a little bit about

podcast

right when we actually first met,

but I didn't know if it ended up,

sometimes materializes, sometimes something doesn't.

But I was thinking about you guys had a ton of

years,

we'll get into career and all this stuff later,

but a ton of years in San Diego weather,

which is known by everybody to be like,

this is the perfect weather.

It's almost always 70s, plus or minus.

And it's just comfortable.

And then you chose to move to West Michigan

and you got a pretty good snow for,

I mean, this has been a pretty good winter for,

yeah, so I mean, as far as a taste of,

sometimes people move here and they're like,

oh, that's not so bad.

And then the next winter hits and they're like,

oh.

So I am dying to hear what's the transition

from warmer climates to West Michigan like?

- Yeah, great question.

So my wife, Aubrey, grew up in Hudsonville area.

So she's very used to it.

Although she moved away to San Diego after

college as well.

But it's been a lot of fun.

Our kids absolutely love it.

- Do they?

Okay.

- And the sledding,

we haven't done cross country skiing yet,

but we talk about it a lot.

And we've been going to Mulligan's Hollow as well.

So it's been just the outdoor culture in general

has been really enjoyable and fun.

- Have you guys tried snowshoeing yet?

- Yes, once.

So we don't have the kids on snowshoes yet,

but I've done it once with a few friends.

- Okay, I've never done it.

So I'm asking out of a total position of

ignorance.

But I hear people get fired up about snowshoeing.

So having done it once, I take it you've only

done it once,

which means you must not have fallen in love with

it

or you've not been around enough places

you could do it regularly.

- Yeah, so I think the snow has to be a certain

depth.

We'll get into my story, but through the SEAL

teams,

we did a decent amount of snowshoeing.

- Oh, okay, gotcha.

- So I have experience doing it,

but just once here in Michigan.

- Yeah, okay, gotcha.

Well, that's a good transition.

Let's, tell me a little bit about your background,

just kind of like where you grew up, family

background,

all those things.

- That sounds great.

So I grew up in Pennsylvania.

Brother seven years younger than me,

and parents incredibly loving,

mirrored for me what a good marriage should look

like.

And they really prioritized sports and academics

growing up.

And I grew up Catholic.

So practiced Catholicism until my young adult

years.

And with that, just with the way Catholicism is,

the way that I grew up, we went to church on

Sundays,

prayed before meals, prayed before going to bed,

but had no true understanding of a conversation

of intimacy with Jesus or a real relationship

there.

I didn't really understand what that meant

until I was probably 23, 24 years old.

- Okay, wow, so quite a bit down the line.

- Yeah, so college Naval Academy time,

still practiced Catholic.

And then moving out to San Diego,

there's a few different things

that happened all at the same time

that really brought me to realize

that there were certain things about the Catholic

faith

that didn't line up with what I believed.

But I realized at that point that I had to love

Jesus

and have the relationship with him.

And then a few additional things

that'll kind of play into my larger story.

My parents did an incredible job

of a ton of things growing up.

And one of the things was they had this unspoken

excellence

in the house, which played really well

into achieving a lot in this world.

But at the same time, there were negative things

about that

that have played out in my adult life

that I've had to kind of work through.

- Okay, so that was kind of a culture.

And your brother, I'm guessing,

felt the same, that culture of excellence for him

too.

Yeah, what's he do now, do you mind me asking?

- Yeah, so he works in the biotech industry in

Boston.

- Okay, gotcha.

So probably a similar driven kind of a guy and

whatnot.

Now, how early, did you know right away

that you wanted to specifically head towards

being a SEAL?

Or was it like, I just wanna serve,

like I wanna be in one of the branches of the

military?

Or how did that whole thing start?

- Yeah, good question.

So sophomore year in high school,

I had a close friend of mine that I played soccer

with.

And he was going to Naval Academy.

He was a few years ahead of me,

and made that decision a few years prior.

And through conversations with him,

realized that it could be a good option.

And what I heard from him is camaraderie

and a team atmosphere.

And those were things I loved throughout my

sports career

as a young kid.

And so they offer a summer program at the Naval

Academy,

where you go for a few weeks.

And I did that between my sophomore and junior

year

of high school, and I fell in love with it.

I was all in at that point.

I applied to other colleges,

but mentally I was all into the Naval Academy.

And I did end up getting in.

And then throughout those four years at Naval

Academy,

every summer, you don't have a normal summer

like you do at a normal college.

Out of the three months, two of those months,

you're off with the Navy.

And you spend time with the service fleet,

submarines, aviation, Marine Corps,

special operations community.

And you kind of cycle through those.

So you get exposure to all the different branches

of the Navy.

And through that process between my sophomore,

my freshman and sophomore years,

realized through my time with some SEALs

through that process, realized that

that was the right path for me.

- What was it about your time with them

that clicked?

- Yeah, and talking to those guys,

and this was 2007, 2008.

So they really were making a huge difference

in Iraq and Afghanistan at the time.

And being able to be a part of that

shortly after graduation,

I wanted to help make a difference for the

country

and lead in that way.

And also the same thing I mentioned earlier

about the Naval Academy having the team

atmosphere

and the camaraderie, I wanted that with my future

career.

- Did the, I mean, obviously the SEALs

are about as high as it gets.

Did you, the whole excellent side of things

from growing up, did you sense

just sort of a performance level

that resonated with you too?

Or was that not on your radar so much at that

point?

That sense of, wow, these guys are,

I mean, the best of the best.

And I click with that.

- Totally.

And it's interesting.

As a result of having that unspoken

part of excellence in my childhood,

that led to doing hard things

and being able to achieve hard things

and go after them.

But that doesn't mean my motives were pure.

Now in my, now that I've lived some life

and I understand what a relationship with Jesus

looks like,

major decisions were walking hand in hand with

him.

And I didn't understand that then.

In reality, I was making decisions there

because I wanted to serve with the best.

I wanted to be the best,

but not necessarily for the right reasons.

- Yeah.

And we're gonna come back to that theme.

Once you, I mean, I don't know how exactly it

works,

but you express interest

and then you obviously have to go through Bud's

and the whole process of,

I mean, when you think about the journey

of becoming a SEAL, but where it becomes official,

I mean, Bud's is notoriously the thing

that everybody says is the hardest thing.

Was that, would you say on your journey,

was that the toughest thing or not so much?

- No.

- Really?

- Actually, so I applied,

you applied the Naval Academy to get one of the

26 spots

that were, and I think there's a few more now,

but when I was going through there, there were 26

spots

and I wasn't selected.

- Okay.

- And that was devastating.

I spent three years training.

Every day I was training for this,

both from a physical and a mental standpoint.

And really looking back now,

God was looking out for me.

I was not mature enough at 22 years old

to make it through Bud's.

And he knew that.

I needed some life under my belt.

I needed some leadership experience under my belt

in order to serve well, lead well.

And that's ultimately what happened.

I had to go to a ship.

The way Naval Academy works,

you rank out all the different areas

that you wanna go to in the Navy.

First choice, second choice, and so on and so

forth.

And the only way that you can get a shot

where we apply and to go to Bud's

is if you go to a ship.

- Okay.

- For a period of time.

So I decided to go to a ship

and was on a ship for, ended up being 18 months,

but eight month deployment,

and then ended up reapplying and got selected.

But not getting selected, that was the hardest

part.

- How did you feel like you grew up

in your time on the ship?

What changed between then and,

I mean, on the one hand, it's a decent amount of

time

that you were kind of waiting to reapply,

but on the other hand, it's not that long.

I mean, so what changed in you?

- Yeah, great question.

So, it's fascinating to talk through this

because at 22 years old,

no real leadership experience is under my belt.

No knowledge of ship life or an engineering

division

or electrical division on a ship.

They put you in charge of a 20-man division.

- Right out of the gates.

- Right out of the gates.

(laughing)

And you have to lead and you have to figure it

out.

And yet you have to show humility, ask the right

questions,

but you have to make decisions too.

So through that process, you're forced to grow up

quickly.

And that's ultimately what ended up happening.

- Yeah, when you reapply then,

so then you're accepted, you start the process.

Of course, everybody, I mean,

anybody who's a little bit maybe familiar

with the journey of buds,

I mean, the way it gets depicted in movies and

whatnot

is there's the bell,

like almost trying to get you to ring the bell.

Were you ever tempted to ring the bell

and say, you know what, I'm done?

Or was it, you just motored?

- If anybody that thought about ringing the bell

once,

generally did.

- Interesting.

- If you let your mind go there,

it was almost like a parasite or a bug.

And it's difficult to get out of your mind.

- Do you know that?

'Cause guys would say, like, I'm thinking about

it.

And then later you would see that,

is that they would play out and you're like,

yeah, they were talking about it and here it is.

So you basically saw, wow, that's so interesting.

- And that's on occasion, people would talk about

that.

A lot of times people would keep it to themselves,

but then you talk to guys later.

I had friends that didn't make it and things like

that.

So, but yeah, generally speaking, if you thought

about it,

it was difficult to get out of your mind.

I'm not saying that was everybody,

but that was my experience.

- When you think about going through such a

demanding time,

how much of it is physical

and how much do you think it is mental,

getting through buds?

- So there is a minimum amount of physical

fitness

that you have to be in in order to make it

through.

It's probably on a curve thereafter,

but the better physical shape you're in,

the weaker you can be mentally.

Everyone has to be strong mentally,

but you can be a little bit weaker than the next

guy

if you're stronger physically

because your body can withstand more.

- Gotcha, so hard to say basically.

It's sort of a very--

- It's a moving target.

- Depend on how the wiring, yeah, gotcha.

So back to sort of the spiritual journey.

So it wasn't like,

it's not that your spiritual journey really

started to shift

right when you went to school.

It really was once you started,

when you became part of the teams, is that right?

- That's exactly right.

- What exactly happened?

I mean, I know you said you started seeing some

ways

that the way you grew up maybe didn't align

with what you were currently thinking and

believing,

but yeah, what was that process?

- Yeah, so this was 2011.

So it was right at the exact time

that I was transferring from the ship to go to

buds.

And that's really when it started.

And at that time, I met my wife, Aubrey, now.

I was going to a CrossFit gym in San Diego

and helped train four buds at the time.

And I met three guys from there

that invited me to their Bible study.

And they're still some of my best friends

in the world today.

And I mentioned to you last week

that I went to Lake Tahoe with them, the same

guys.

- Yeah, that's cool.

- And then third, when I started buds,

a few guys, there ended up being 10 to 15 of us

that did a Bible study on Sunday nights

to prepare our minds and hearts going into the

training week.

- Wow, that's really, really cool.

- So through all three of those things

happening at the same time,

my wife, Aubrey, was very much a practicing

Christian

at the time, understood what that relationship

with Jesus looked like.

And we had a lot of conversations about it

earlier on in our relationship.

And then, and through the two Bible studies,

it was the same conversations.

And then the Bible study at buds,

what we did for about six months

is just go through Old Testament heroes.

And their leadership journeys.

And that David, Solomon, and a few others.

We talked through those, read the stories

in the Bible about them.

And then that kind of led into our leadership

journeys

too in the teams.

- Did you see when you were seeing these other

guys

just kind of practice their faith, discuss it and

all that,

did you see right away, these guys are relating

to God, to Jesus differently

than what you'd grown up?

Was it evident right away?

Yeah, okay.

- 100%.

- How so?

- I didn't know how to relate to him

because I'd never seen that image before.

And in seeing these guys,

that their parents imaged that to them,

that it was amazing to witness their walk

and that definitely played into mine.

- Yeah, it's really cool.

It speaks to the power of, I mean,

sermons have a place, good books have a place,

and all these things, but just the power

of making space in our lives for people

of different spiritual backgrounds

or somebody that's kind of, I mean,

you had a long Christian heritage in certain

regards,

but it wasn't until you had that really incarnational,

I'm with these guys, I'm hearing how they pray,

I'm hearing how they talk, that you realized,

oh, there's something different here that I can

step into.

Did you kind of like, I mean, was your spiritual

growth

just, man, you just took off in a whole new way

at that point or was it this real slow, steady

or how did that play out?

- I would say from, I would say it's slow and

steady.

- Okay.

- I don't think it, it did not,

it wasn't like a rocket ship or anything like

that.

But when I look back, that was the pinpointed

time

where I began to realize what Christian faith is

all about.

- Yeah, do you think, we've talked a little bit

about how on teams, there are some guys

that are obviously walking with Jesus

and have a similar faith structure and conviction

to you,

and then there are guys who don't.

And I'm just curious when it comes to now

how you follow Jesus, I feel like your background

from a team's perspective could affect how you

view

what it means to follow Jesus.

Do you feel like that happens or not really?

- Yeah, good question.

So I've been in a lot of third world countries

as a result of the deployments that I've been on.

So just the, and seeing how Muslim countries

specifically,

I did my whole career in the Middle East,

most of my career in the Middle East.

Seeing that the way that they live highlights

the depravity of man, both from a standpoint

of original sin and the choice to sin

as a result of not understanding how they're

supposed

to live their lives.

So seeing that overseas made me start reflecting

on my own sins and my own sin patterns

and realizing that we're all sinful

and I can't do this on my own.

For a long time, through my achievement

orientation,

I felt like I could control everything.

But through that process and seeing the way

that others were living overseas specifically,

reflecting on my own journey, my own sin patterns,

realizing that I need to be walking hand in hand

with the Lord.

- Yeah, that's interesting.

So for you, a big way that serving in the way you

did

affected how you saw following Jesus as just

being aware

of your brokenness in a greater way,

because that's interesting, okay.

Let's talk a little bit about just interesting SEAL

stuff

because I suspect that people will be like,

"Okay, man, he's seen some interesting things

"and done some interesting things," all that.

So let me ask you this.

First, for a little SEAL tutorial here,

getting to know you helped me understand

just a little bit more that there are such a

variety

of things that SEALs do.

And I think that the stereotype is if you watch

SEAL Team,

it's like door kicking.

I mean, that feels like that's what SEALs do

and it's bigger than that.

And so explain generally, and I know door kicking

wasn't as much your thing.

So explain what SEALs are doing and even what you

did

then generally speaking.

And I just think that people will find that

fascinating.

- That sounds great.

I'll start a little macro

and I'll work my way down a little bit.

So there's four distinct parts of different SEAL

Teams.

And the first one is they do traditional deployments.

So like I was speaking about earlier,

24 month cycles and you do individual training,

you do platoon or troop training,

then you do a kind of larger scale team training,

and then you deploy for six, seven, eight months.

And then the second part is SEAL Teams

that do almost majority intelligence collection.

And they do intelligence collection for

those SEAL deployments.

And they also do intelligence collection for

other things.

And then the third is, it's a small part of the

community,

but it's a really important part of the community,

but it's diving operations.

SEAL Teams that prioritize just diving.

But the reason it's a small part of the community

is because it takes a long time to train for that

and it's very specialized.

And then the fourth part are SEAL Teams

that execute missions that are on call.

So I think you hear something going on overseas

and they deploy in a hurry,

but there's so much training that leads up to

that.

Okay, to answer your question a little bit

further.

So what you see in TV shows or the movies,

that's generally only like, I don't know,

two to 5% of what SEALs get to do.

Everything else is training for that.

It's time with family recouping back home,

because that's a very important part.

If your family's not supportive of you,

it's very difficult to be in the place mentally

and emotionally to be able to execute

appropriately.

Which by the way, I mean, that's just a great

little piece

on life in general, because I think similarly,

I remember once a pastor friend of mine was,

we were talking about the importance

of building into marriages.

And as much as we as a church might have a

commitment

to we wanna reach people who don't yet know Jesus

and we wanna make an impact around the world,

it's gonna be really hard to do that

if people are struggling in their marriage

or in their family, because that's,

I mean, that's just taking over the whole

windshield.

That's all they can see is that problem.

So that's where marriage wholeness is such a big

deal.

I remember you saying the military partially cut

back

or shortened length of service times deployments,

because mental health,

which is not directly related to marriage,

but again, that idea of self-health being such a

big thing

if you're gonna perform and do important and big

things.

So, okay, so continue on though,

you were saying about kind of, yeah,

just what you did and what SEALs do.

- Yes, so two to 5% is spent doing the actual

operations.

That's total time-wise of what you do in the SEAL

teams.

The rest is training, and there's a lot of

mission planning.

And as an officer, that's your main role.

So I did a ton of mission planning over the years,

but mission planning, training, and family time,

and recouping for the next thing

is really the rest of the 95 to 98%.

And just to give you a sense too

of the different type of operations,

instead of just kind of giving generalities,

the type of operations that, you know,

the full spectrum,

you can be doing traditional operations

in a deployment for six to eight months

in Iraq and Afghanistan,

where you're,

potentially you are kicking down doors and doing

operations,

but it's more, you're based there

and you're doing it out of that country.

You can be controlling aircraft

and dropping bombs on the enemy.

You could be planning an operation

and executing to take down a ship

that has components or weapons on it of some sort.

You can be doing a diving operation

off of a nuclear submarine.

And those are just some of the different things

that different SEALs do.

And of course, those are different,

some of those are different specialties

that you train for for years and years at a time.

- Do you have anything looking back that you go,

this was what I really enjoyed,

either the kind of work or a specific experience

that really sticks out to you as,

that is a great memory.

- Yeah, the best one was probably,

so I got the opportunity to,

between moving, we lived in San Diego for 11

years

and then Virginia Beach for the last four.

But between those two locations,

we were able to go to Hawaii as a family.

And I was there for four months.

And during that time, I learned to drive a mini

submarine.

And picture it, it's as big as the room that we're

in.

- Okay, so mini is not exactly small.

(laughing)

But compared to a full sub,

is that what you're launching out of?

- That's right.

- Okay, full size sub.

So, okay, which I can't,

I mean, I've seen old subs that are like,

you can walk through them

and it's insane until you're actually there.

This is so big.

- It's huge.

- Yeah, so anyway, okay, so you got to drive a

mini sub.

Is that the, what's the right,

not drive probably is not the right word.

- Yeah.

- Is it, that's what you say?

- Yes. (laughing)

- Okay. - You got it.

But learning that process of how to drive it

for three months.

And I've never driven anything in 3D before,

I'm not a pilot.

So the practice of moving left or right, front or

back,

but then up or down and having to get ballast

correct.

- Oh, that is crazy.

- It takes a lot of skill.

And I can say that I wasn't the best at it.

(laughing)

But it was a lot of fun.

- Yeah, and then when you're using,

like when you're using the mini sub,

would you go to the coast of somewhere?

Does a team then like swim out of the sub

or what's happening with the sub then?

- Yeah, so the idea is that you launch these

out of a larger submarine.

- Yeah.

- And then you take this with seals in it

and you go and execute an operation and you come

back.

- Okay.

- And that's the general profile.

- So the person who drives it, are you,

I mean, this is getting in the trenches, I

understand.

But are you kind of like you're parked, guys get

out,

they go do their thing and then come back and

swim in

and then you get them on and then you're like,

- Yes.

- Yeah, drive away.

- You nailed it.

- Gotcha.

- And the water gets cold.

You can stay in this thing for up to,

for six to 10 hours.

- Oh, is that right?

- So it's, and think about being in even 70

or 75 degree water temperature for that long of a

time,

it can be cold.

- Yeah, wow.

- What an experience, just a wild, a wild thing.

So one of the things that a lot of times people

will talk

about when it comes to just seal life and that,

you know, all these books that have been written

about leadership and whatnot.

And part of the reason why I think that people

like

to talk about leadership relative to seal teams

is because there is such a culture of,

we need to produce people who are leaders

and who are not just needing to be told what to

do

when they're out doing their thing.

So I think it would be fun to talk a little bit

about what you've picked up on leadership

through the whole seal experience.

- Okay, yeah, that sounds great.

And I think what probably makes the most sense

with that

is just to talk through, so I'm big on frameworks.

I think it helps just put things in the right

place

in my mind and just talk through, it's a common,

in order to talk about leadership,

we have to have a common understanding

of what leadership is and the definition

surrounding it.

So I think what makes sense is just,

I talked to that a little bit and just talk

through

the framework and we can kind of take it from

there.

- Sure.

- So the way that I view leadership is,

leadership is influence and influence is

leadership.

And you can't have leadership without trust.

And trust is the center point or the bedrock in

leadership,

in my opinion.

And you have trust in three separate ways

and you build it in three separate ways.

It's up, is the first one.

And if you're an executive or a CEO,

you're still gonna have a board or shareholders

that you report to and yet you have to build

trust with them.

If you're middle management,

you have senior level leadership

that you're gonna build trust with.

And then the second is you have to build trust

laterally.

You have to build trust with your peers.

If you don't, then it potentially could torpedo.

If you're very good up and you're very good down

and you're not good laterally,

it's natural that it's just not gonna be a good

fit

for you in that company or the organization that

you're in.

And then the third is down.

You have to build trust with the people that work

for you.

But how do you build trust?

And you build trust in three separate ways

in character, competence, and mindset.

And character, it can be synonymous with

integrity,

motives, things like that.

And a few leaders in the teams

mentioned this to me over the years

and it holds true for me that

when you think of integrity,

everyone always says definition of that

is do the right thing when nobody's looking.

But for me, what I struggle with

is doing the right thing when everybody's looking.

- Why is that?

- I mentioned, we talked earlier

about my achievement orientation growing up.

The way that that has played out in my adult life

is that I tend to be people pleasing

because I recognize that that is the fastest way

to achieve something.

And that's subconscious, that's not a conscious

thought.

But if people are watching me,

it's natural that there's these external

pressures on me

that my natural, my subconscious mind

wants the people pleased.

So it's difficult to choose the right decision

for the right decision's sake

versus thinking about all these external

pressures.

- Yeah, that makes sense.

So uniquely, being around people from the

standpoint of

when it comes to having strong character and all

that,

uniquely, the pressure of people being around

is what would kind of mentally persuade you

to start thinking thoughts that you might not

wanna think

and want, okay, that makes a lot of sense, yeah.

- That's exactly right.

And a lot of times, when making these decisions

in the SEAL teams, the ones that,

when everyone was looking, it might be your peers

that are watching.

And that's when it becomes very difficult

because you might make the right decision

and you're losing trust with your peers

because they want you to go a different direction.

- Right.

- Or you're losing trust with people that work

for you,

but you're gaining trust from your superiors,

so managing all that.

- Yeah, well, did you ever, I mean,

did you have to at times make some decisions

that somebody on your team was like,

this is just the dumbest thing I've ever seen

and you had to know just in your heart,

I am making the right call?

- Yes, definitely.

I'm trying to think of an example.

(both laughing)

- Did it work out?

I mean, yeah, it might not be able to

without a specific example in mind.

Sometimes you make the right call

and after everything is said and done,

everybody sees, yeah, that was the right call.

And then other times you make the right call

and the people that disagreed with you on the

front end

still think, yeah, I would not have made that

call.

Did it, do you, just as a gut read,

did it work out for you?

Were they, people usually saw the wisdom of your

approach

on the backside or was it like, no,

the same people who thought it was not ideal

stayed in that place?

- Yeah, so Brian, it's super interesting that

like,

no, it doesn't always work out that way.

And there's always people within an organization,

within a small team that you're working so

closely together,

they see all of the good things,

they see all the flaws in the things that you do.

There's always gonna be people that disagree.

But when I talk about character and then

competence

and under the competence category,

you put like, how do you communicate?

Like, how do you build trust through that

communication

that falls into the competence category?

And those people that you see that don't agree

with it,

that's just a conversation like this.

You have to sit down with them and have that

conversation

and hear their side and listen to them and learn

from them.

And maybe you did miss something

that they see that you don't.

- Yeah, it's a really interesting thing.

I mean, I think every leader and not just,

I mean, not just leaders, feels this pressure of,

I don't want to disappoint people.

There is the rare person who just goes,

I'm doing my thing and I could give a rip

on what anybody thinks,

but most of us are not wired that way.

And so making the hard call when you just,

you know it's the right call, but it's the hard

call

is a really tough thing,

but it's a really important attribute of a good

leader.

And it seems like now, this is,

I don't know how much this is popular conception,

how much is real, but it feels like in the team

structure,

it feels like there's an atmosphere

where it's pretty open to sharing your mind.

It's not like the leader just says his thing

and then everybody just gets in line and says,

that's that.

I mean, would you say there's a lot of like,

if a guy has pushback,

he's gonna feel pretty free to give you the pushback?

Yeah, spot on.

- Yes.

(laughing)

Yeah, and the teams, because I think it's a type

of people

that are within the organization.

Everyone tells how it is, regardless of your rank.

I mean, they speak their mind.

And after every operation, actual operation,

after every training operation,

after every training evolution,

we're always doing after action reports.

Sitting down like this as a group

and having a truthful conversation

about what Kevin messed up or what the next guy

messed up

so we can learn from it.

- But that's such a good example, I mean, for all

of us

on what it looks like to have those conversations.

And they're not personal.

I mean, would guys,

(laughing)

sometimes it would be personal.

- Totally, yes, guys take it like that sometimes.

And sometimes I did too.

- Yeah.

- It's hard.

- Did you, would you say guys delivered

what they had to say in a good way?

Or sometimes was it like, man, that's a jab

and you're making this,

maybe you've got merit to your point,

but the way you're saying it,

it's definitely making it harder to hear

than it needs to be.

I mean, how did it go?

Were people pretty good about how they said their

feedback

or was it more, was it,

no, you're just trying to roast me right now.

- I mean, in those settings, it's,

everyone's pretty receptive.

- Yeah.

- It's just by the nature of it.

We recognize when we're sitting down

and having those conversations post training,

post operation, that you have to be receptive

because that's how we get better.

And that's how you protect the guy next to you.

- Yeah.

- If you're not improving, then you're not,

you can potentially hurting yourself

and or the guy next to you.

- Do you feel like, I don't know how much,

I know a little bit about what you're doing now

professionally, but post teams,

it feels like when you're serving with the teams,

I mean, having candid conversations like that

is an essential, life is at stake, you got to.

But then it feels like what I sometimes hear

in corporate environments,

both for-profit, non-profit, is everybody is,

people are not quite as candid

as maybe they ought to be at times.

Would you say your professional experience post

teams

has been that same attitude and atmosphere of

candor

or, and you're partially you're working with vets,

so that helps. - That's right.

- But I mean, yeah, or have you felt like that

slips

since not being in the team environment, that

candor?

- I think TBD for me, Brian.

I mean, my business partner now is a close friend

of mine

that I went through buds with,

that was a part of that Bible study.

We were going through buds.

We very much know how to be candid with each

other

and know how each other operate.

We have all that trust from all those years built

up.

But what we're doing now is we're looking to buy

companies

in the national security sector

or companies that embody American resilience.

It doesn't necessarily mean that there's gonna be

veterans

in that organization.

So we tend to implement some of these

after action-like reports into these companies

in order to ensure that we're improving on a

daily basis.

- Is that a welcome change for companies

that are not used to that?

Or have you had enough experience with it yet

to see their reactions?

And has it been a welcome change?

Or do you go, it's too early on that to see?

- It's too early, but we've had conversations

with individuals within companies about that.

And I think it's gonna depend on how it's

implemented

and the communication associated with that.

But the people that we talked to said

that it's gonna be a good change.

- Yeah, I think it seems like for people who want

to step up

and really be part of something that's strong,

making a difference, that's the kind of person

that's gonna really love candid conversations,

feedback, how do I get better?

And then there's some folks that really are just

not wired

for that same thing.

And they're probably gonna feel like maybe this

isn't

the place for me because it's uncomfortable,

but it's a good discomfort if you're willing to

embrace it.

And I can think of all the times people have

given me

just good feedback that's been helpful

for me becoming who I am.

When you think about that group of guys

that you were just back with for a week,

well, first off, I'd be curious,

what do you, you guys get together for a week.

What do you do for a week?

All, everybody, that was how long you were there,

right?

A week?

- Five days. - Five days.

What are you spending time doing for those five

days?

- It is a mixture of outdoor adventure and fun.

- Okay.

- Prayer time and fellowship and then timing the

word.

And it's a combination of all the above.

Some of it's just sitting and doing a puzzle

and having a good conversation and catching up.

We see each other once a year.

I mean, a lot of the guys have moved away from

San Diego.

So all of us come together once a year.

And this year was a little different.

There were just, there were a few guys

that were dealing with some really hard stuff,

life stuff.

So we spent many, many hours just talking

through that hard stuff and putting our hands

on them physically and praying over them

and kind of taking turns and going down the line

and each praying for that person.

- Man, that's so good.

I'm thinking about a lot of guys I know

who are still hesitant to like really embrace

community.

And it's just so weird because you're talking,

and I mean, just based on sheer stereotypes alone,

I mean, we're talking guys who are Navy SEALs

and they're, I mean, I feel like it's fair to say

there's some toughness there,

there's some resilience there.

And yet you guys are still making time

to pray for each other, lay hands on each other,

talk about hard things together, encourage each

other.

I don't know, what is the deal?

Why do folks, I mean, I wanna be like, okay,

if Kevin was doing it with his buddies,

then I think the rest of us can say

it'd probably be good for us too.

What do you think is the hesitancy for guys

to step into that kind of community?

- Yeah, that's a good question.

Well, I'll say this, I mean,

I've struggled with it at times.

When we moved from San Diego, we had this strong

community.

Moved to Virginia Beach where we knew some people,

we had the military community,

but we didn't have a strong Christian community.

I mean, it takes putting yourself out there

and overcoming some fear in order to meet guys or

gals

that you're gonna have lifelong friendships with.

It takes putting yourself out there

and be vulnerable and authentic, and that's not

easy.

So my guess is fear, and I felt that in Virginia

and didn't put myself out there

in the way that I probably should have.

- Yeah, so that's a good point.

And I mean, and the whole idea of, it's weird,

'cause on the one hand, it does take time

and you have to be patient.

You can't just move to a new place.

I'm sure you guys are experiencing this a little

bit.

And in West Michigan here is,

I know you've met some great people,

but at the end of the day,

the kinds of relationship we're talking about,

generally speaking, take time.

But even with time, man, it's a decision,

and it still takes courage.

And no matter how many crazy things you've done,

piloting a mini submarine off the coast

of various countries, I mean, at the end of the

day,

opening up your heart is opening up your heart.

And that's a decision.

That's really cool that you got to experience

that.

What do you think that for you,

the greatest gifts have been of being part

of that community of guys over the years?

What's that brought into your life?

- Yeah, that's a great question.

I mean, the immediate gift of 2011

of understanding what Christianity was truly all

about,

love of God, love of people,

understanding a relationship with Jesus.

But then these 12 guys,

and it's probably a little bit more than that,

I think 15 guys over the years,

with a single phone call,

I can talk to any one of them

about anything that's going on in my life,

and they'll be receptive, and they'll pick up

every time.

So that's-- - Yeah, just huge support.

- Huge support, and it doesn't make a difference.

Now I've been apart from some of these guys

for some of them a decade.

It doesn't matter. - Yeah, yeah.

- It's because of the centeredness

of our relationship with Jesus that has carried

us forward.

- Yeah, we just all need those kind of

relationships too.

That's the thing that sometimes I think

that people will start thinking about,

man, I wish I had that when they're

in the middle of a hard time.

And suddenly they lack that kind of support,

and that can all of a sudden become a really

lonely,

really difficult position to be in.

And the trick here is being proactive about it

and building into those kind of relationships

in some ways before you need them.

And then when something hits,

and the reality of life is something's gonna hit,

and then you've got the community already in

place.

Thinking about that whole proactive thing

made me think about something else that you and

Aubrey did

I thought was really cool.

You realized, and you're gonna maybe need

to clarify the details, that early on,

I think it was after, I think it was coming back

from deployments, that adjustment,

and that's for military families,

that's famously a really hard time.

You guys had to be proactive on how you were

gonna

prioritize your marriage and all that.

Tell me what you did.

Tell me how and why you realized this is not

going

the way we want it to, and then what you did

and how did you come to that decision?

>> Yeah, great.

So unfortunately, we realized it through errors,

not doing it well, coming back from these deployments,

and our relationship took way longer than we

would have

liked to get back to a normal place

and a place where we were loving each other well.

And so through those mistakes, we realized that

we needed

to proactively schedule marital counseling

coming back from these deployments.

Just to have a third party ask deeper questions

and then be kind of an intermediary between the

two of us,

and especially when we started having kids,

that's when we really needed it.

We needed it more than ever.

>> Why was that?

>> Because it just adds another dynamic.

And unfortunately for us, and I've talked to

friends

about this too, so some of my friends deal with

it too,

is that in marriage, when you have kids,

sometimes it turns into a little bit more

of a business relationship instead of a loving

marriage.

And we felt that too at the time.

And Brian, what's interesting is that deployments

are hard,

but training's harder.

Our training over the years, you're gone for two

weeks

to a month at a time, you're coming back for a

week

or a few days, and then you're gone again.

So you're trying to integrate constantly back

into life.

>> Yeah, that's a tough rhythm.

So you don't get settled, basically.

>> That's right.

And then naturally, I know that I'm supposed

to be the leader of the household,

but how can I do that when I'm coming and going

so often?

So Aubrey's taking care of the household,

she's taking care of that while I'm gone,

but then I'm coming back in and it's natural

that we're gonna be butting heads and that

happened.

>> Right.

Well, I love that you guys got intentional

about figuring out a plan.

I mean, on the one hand, one could say,

well, sure, it was reactive in the sense that

you had a problem or a challenge you were facing

and you realized you had to do something about it,

but then you got into a rhythm where you said,

hey, just in an ongoing fashion,

we just need to adopt a new practice here.

And I just think that says a ton about you guys

to be smart about this.

And again, for anybody who's listening to us talk,

it's funny because when it comes, generally

speaking,

when it comes to marriage counseling,

I would say men are far more resistant than women.

And so part of it, we're talking here

and I wanna be like, okay, everybody listening.

We're talking with a guy who served

with 14 years of the seals,

you're in community with guys,

you're getting real about life,

you're going to marriage counseling,

it's okay that we do these things.

In fact, I think it's one of the manliest things

we can do

when we're willing to step into those vulnerable

places

and say, I am gonna do whatever it takes

to prioritize the most important relationships of

my life.

And so I just salute you, Kevin, for that.

I'd love to talk a little bit more about

we talked a little bit earlier

about the culture of excellence you grew up with,

achievement orientation.

And one of the things I think is really cool

about your story is how you've been really

sensitive

to like the inner journey of what's going on

inside you,

what are your motivations,

what needs to be maybe fan and flame more,

but also what might need to die

or need to be repented from.

And so take me on that journey a little bit.

I think it's been really, really cool

to hear you just talk about looking deep on the

inside.

- Yeah, thanks for asking, Brian.

Largely, this is still something I'm working

through.

So I'll just talk through it,

but it's something that I'm struggling with

and still trying to work through with the Lord.

So yeah, I mentioned kind of the undercurrent of

excellence

in the household growing up,

and there's really good things about it,

and then there's stuff that I'm still working

through

and that, so the gifts of that,

it gave me the confidence over time to go after

anything,

despite something being hard.

And then having the focus and work rate and work

ethic

to be able to accomplish that goal.

So that was the gift that came from it.

But at the same time, the other side is the curse,

and the curse is I constantly had to be doing.

I constantly had to be looking to the next thing

in order to feel fulfilled.

And subconsciously, my mind always goes to

accomplishing the outcome versus enjoyment to the

process.

I'm constantly telling myself process over

outcome,

process over outcome, because I want to enjoy the

process,

but it's always hard for me.

And the constant doing, it's very difficult

to have a strong relationship with the Lord

when I'm always looking toward the next thing.

I can't be present.

So that's what I'm working through.

- How does that affect the idea of,

and I think a lot of people will probably,

to varying degrees, resonate with that.

Sort of feeling good about oneself by performance,

ultimately, is what it is, where your identity,

you're like, hey, as long as I'm achieving,

I'm performing, I'm busy, I'm doing something,

I feel good.

But it's interesting, I'm thinking about

your marriage relationship, and would you say

that you're good at just kind of being still

in that relationship, or does it feel like

we gotta be doing something as a couple?

'Cause I feel like sometimes our marriages

actually end up teaching us about

what it means to relate to God.

So I'm curious how this is intersected with your

marriage.

- Yeah, good question.

So Aubrey, naturally, doesn't struggle

with the same things that I do.

And she very much has,

I think in marriage in general,

the things that we're different about,

the things that we're naturally wired towards

and we're different about, we tend to,

if we're on opposite ends of the spectrum,

we're gonna come closer to the center.

And that's very much the case here,

is that over the years, what we've realized

is that once a day is going, I'm going.

And I'm constantly moving and doing.

But we need to prioritize the mornings

and sitting together, praying together,

and just talking, catching up on life,

outside of logistics, which we don't always

do that perfectly, but we know we need it.

In order to have a relationship with the Lord

like we know we're called to, that's part of our

life

that we have to--

- Is that hard for you to do,

or have you gotten comfortable with that?

We're slowing down and we're just being with

right now.

- It's taken time to get comfortable with it.

I'm comfortable now, but it wasn't overnight

that that became easy.

- Gotcha.

It'll be interesting to see, I guess,

and sort of the direction of my questions goes,

sometimes I feel like you can get comfortable

with your spouse in that dynamic.

And sometimes I still have to tell myself,

'cause I'm a very, I love accomplishing things.

For me, it's not so much, I don't know

if it's an identity thing, but I would say

just the idea of moving, it feels good.

I mean, I just like going.

- Definitely.

- And so I've had to really think about,

man, when I'm with Christina, I just enjoy being

with her,

being in her presence.

I don't have to work at it, it's just fun to not

do anything.

And so then sometimes I have to read that

back into my relationship with God and say,

man, what's it like to just be with Jesus?

And it's not about, what are we gonna do, Jesus?

What are you calling me to?

That's my natural mentality, where are we going?

So I sometimes try to apply those lessons sort of

backwards

from the relationship in my marriage

to my relationship with God.

What's it like, when I think about,

you're doing such a weird, unique, amazing job

for 14 years,

and I know everybody listening just feels so

grateful

for the many men and women who have sacrificed a

lot

and sacrificed at the personal level, the family

level

to serve our country, and so thank you for that,

Kevin.

You then have to, after 14 years of doing

a very unique, incredible job,

then have to become a civilian,

where you're not doing all those things.

I mean, is that a tough transition,

or is it more like, hey, I'm ready to have a

break

from team stuff all the time?

What's that move like?

- Incredibly difficult.

- Is that right?

- And every single guy that I talked to about

this

or going through it currently, it's hard.

It's hard to figure out exactly what your new

passion is.

Most guys that went into the SEAL teams,

I was on the shorter end, but I have friends

that wanted to do this from seven or eight years

old.

They literally trained for it for almost two

decades

before they became a reality.

My business partner, he decided that he was gonna

learn

a language and become fluent in a language

before he got accepted into SEAL teams.

That's years of preparation.

So the idea of getting out of something

that's been your dream for such a long time

and transitioning to something that,

there's a lot of unknown there, it's difficult.

And for me, I'm thankful that the military

gave me the ability to transition out for nine

months

while I was still paid by the government,

but I didn't have any military responsibilities.

So during that time, I was by myself

looking for a business to buy.

And I was under contract twice during that time,

but through the due diligence process,

those two didn't end up working out.

And when the most recent one ended up falling

through,

at that point, I was gonna have to completely

divert

and do something and figure out something

completely different, which was very,

it felt like a failure.

But I only felt that for a very short amount of

time

because Latham, my business partner,

now ended up calling me and saying,

"Hey, I see what you're doing.

"Let's partner up and try to do this together."

- Is there a trend when it comes to what SEALs do

after,

what's the typical retirement age, just range-wise?

Is there a typical retirement age?

- Generally, guys will stay in 20 years, around

42.

- Okay, and so young, I mean,

when they're rolling out, they're young.

What's, is there a trend when it comes to

what SEALs do next, or is it just all over the

board?

- A lot of guys go into entrepreneurship.

- Okay.

- Because the SEAL community,

I think the special operations communities at

large

throughout the military breeds an entrepreneurial

spirit.

Just, you have a ton of autonomy to make

decisions

within your small unit.

You have left and right limits, but within that,

you have a lot of autonomy to make decisions.

And through that, you gain a lot of experience

operating in the gray zone, and trying to figure

things out,

and being good at leading.

That naturally lends itself to entrepreneurship.

- Do guys come out, again, broadly speaking,

I have no idea what SEALs get paid and whatnot.

Are they coming out going,

"Man, I've got to get something going fast for

work."

Or, and a lot of this tends, is gonna turn too,

on how they handle their finances

while they were still serving.

But are they like, "We gotta get to work."

Or is it such that guys are coming out

with they've got some financial margin to take

some time?

Or how does, is there a trend there?

- Yes.

Most guys will start a job as soon as they get

out

to support their families.

If it is a traditional job and not

entrepreneurship,

they end up switching jobs within a year or two.

- Okay.

- And that is the trend.

And that's told to us as we're getting out,

because there's a time pressure there,

an external time pressure.

- Yeah, makes sense.

Man, that would be such a crazy journey.

And I know you've, I asked you this question,

I think maybe the first time I met you,

I think you said the hardest thing

about making the transition was still

the loss of the community.

Would that be the case?

Would that be the hardest pinch point

when it comes to that transition?

- It's community, but there's two specific things

about community, and it's the team atmosphere,

the camaraderie that comes with that,

and then the competition that comes with that.

It's really fun to be in competition

with if you're in a platoon, 20 guys at any given

time.

- Yeah, that makes sense.

We had, as you know, a breakfast for veterans not

long ago.

And one of the guys told me,

it was one of the probably the highest

compliments,

he wasn't a SEAL, but he was,

and I forget what branch he served in,

I think the Army, but he talked about

the power of community and relationships he had

when they served, and he and his wife both too,

because obviously for spouses,

it can be really tight too,

'cause those spouses are hanging tight,

because their husbands are out doing whatever.

And he said, their current cable group here at

church,

he said, "This is the closest thing

"I've ever experienced post-serving

"to the level of community I had when I was

serving."

And he said, "It literally is almost at that

place."

And I thought, that is amazing to hear.

I'm so grateful, because it's hard in,

I'll call it normal life, to approximate.

- You guys are in a very special circumstance

when you're serving.

And so anyway, that was really cool.

One of the things that you do that is neat

as a way of giving back is something called Life

Camp USA.

And I would love for you to just explain what

that is

and how you developed a heart for it.

- Yeah, so one of the things that I was praying

about

getting out of the military was being in a

position

to have a job where I had a few hours a week

to devote to a nonprofit or nonprofits

that I'm passionate about.

And I was exposed to Life Camp USA,

actually through one of the SEAL organizations

introduced me to them.

And what Life Camp does is it's mentorship

through outdoor camps of middle school boys,

so ages 11 through 14, but all of them lost their

dads

to military service.

- Wow.

- And the idea is to teach them in the outdoors

skills

and things about character

that their dads would have taught them.

And then maintain that friendship and

relationship thereafter

for the years to come until they leave the house.

And so we're talking to these boys every week,

every other week, and then we do a monthly Zoom

all together from all, there's 10, we call them

uncles,

but 10 mentors and 10 boys.

It's one-to-one ratio.

- Wow, that's really cool.

- With these summer camps.

And Brian, it's crazy how hurt these kids are.

A lot of them don't have any closure

to the death of their dads.

And some of them lost their dads

when they were eight months old.

- Wow.

- Where they never knew them,

but they tell all these stories that they've

heard.

And other ones lost them seven months ago.

So, or anything in between.

- Yeah.

- So there's a lot of hurt there.

And one of the things that we do,

and this is the most powerful part of the week to

me,

is that we give them closure in that.

And we line up the boys and they stand at

attention.

And all the uncles, the mentors,

we march in in military formation,

and we stand at attention, and we honor their

dads.

And do you mind if I just read the script?

'Cause I think it's pretty powerful.

- Yeah, that'd be great, yeah.

- So we stand at attention and we say,

the reason you are at life camp

is because you are not just anybody.

You are special, not only to us, but to this

nation.

As mentors, some of us who are service members

ourselves,

understand full well the sacrifice and cost of

service.

But nobody understands this sacrifice more than

you all do.

Tomorrow, you will be faced with the reality

of heading back home without your fathers.

For that, we are forever grateful.

And because of you, we get to live free.

So as you all depart Life Camp USA

and embark on your individual journeys back at

home,

we want you all to know that your fathers

are real life heroes.

They all died honorably.

And we are all standing here, shoulder to

shoulder,

to honor you and your father's sacrifice for all

of us.

We will now honor you and your fathers

by saying their names and remembering their

spirits,

so their sacrifice will never be forgotten.

- Wow. - Yeah.

- As emotional as that hits me,

I can't imagine being one of the boys there.

- Brian, I mean, it's,

you've probably gathered from some of the things

that I've said, I'm not an emotional guy.

When I do this, I weep.

I can't stop.

Like, it's incredibly difficult.

And I can't believe I didn't mention this,

but the most important part of the camp

is the whole reason we're doing this

is to bring them to Christ.

- Oh, is that right? - Yes.

- Okay, gotcha.

- Teaching them biblical truths

in conjunction with all these outdoor activities.

- Wow.

- And then we're singing worship songs

around the campfire at night.

And 80% of them got baptized last year.

- No kidding, that's amazing, wow.

- And I think just amongst their suffering

and being able to tie that to Jesus' suffering

and talk to that, it's incredibly powerful.

- Well, and I don't know if you guys get into

this,

I suspect you do, but specifically for young men

and boys who have lost their dads,

talking about the fatherhood of God,

does that come up in the midst of the--

- Oh, yes, we talk about it a ton.

- Do they ever have a chance to reflect back to

you

what you just read to us, what that experience

meant to them?

Do they have a chance to talk about

what happened in their own hearts during that,

or is there not kind of a forum for that sort of

thing?

- There is a forum.

I think that, and I could be wrong about this,

but the way that it feels is the emotions speak,

say all the words that we need to say.

And that speaks for itself.

- Yeah.

- Where we don't, we never bring it up,

they never bring it up, but I think it doesn't

need

to be said, because everything is said right here.

- Are, I'm guessing the boys, in some cases,

maybe they just kind of stand strong and more stoically,

but I'm guessing for others, I mean,

are kids breaking down in hearing these words and

just--

- Every one of them.

- Yeah.

- Every one of them.

And I've only done this for two summers,

so it's been 20 boys, but every one of them.

- Yeah.

- Even the boy, there was one boy in particular

that came in the camp, he lost his dad,

it was seven months prior, and he came in very

bitter

and not an emotional kid, and definitely,

seemingly from a troubled family.

Even him, he broke down.

- Man, thanks for doing that, Kevin.

- Yeah.

- What a great example.

And it strikes me that you guys are serving these

kids

out of an experience that, not that you've had

directly,

maybe some of the guys have been in their shoes,

but you've been close to people, you've had,

maybe you've lost, some of the guys, I'm sure,

that are mentors have lost friends,

or uncles have lost friends.

Others just have a front row seat on what some

of these boys are going through,

or what they're all going through.

And it's interesting hearing you talk about,

hey, my experience of the past motivated me

to give back to these boys in this way.

I mean, really, that's a great picture

of what the gospel should do for every one of us.

You know, the reality is, when you see,

for anybody who knows Christ, when you see the

sacrifice

that Jesus chose to give, willingly,

you know, filled with faith, but I mean,

he was asking the Father in that last moment,

hey, is there any other way?

And he went through it, and when we experience

that kind of sacrifice, it oughta change us such

that we are instinctively, internally,

we want to give back, like you guys are giving

back

to these boys, you've seen people sacrifice.

And so, I think on the one hand, I can sit here

and say thank you for that example, Kevin,

and thanks for building to those boys,

but I also feel like it's a real challenge

to any of us who name the name of Jesus,

because what you're doing for those boys

is honestly what any of us who know Christ

are supposed to be doing for anybody who is far

from him.

And it's that experience of somebody who has

given so much,

watching that and motivating us to say,

now, how does that move me?

Not out of guilt, not out of obligation,

out of gratitude to give back,

so I think that's a great picture of the gospel.

I'm grateful for you sharing that with us.

Anything else you wanna share before we wrap up

today?

Anything else on your heart or mind?

- No, I think that's it.

Thanks, Brian.

- Yeah, I gotcha.

I know we'll put this in the links, the show

notes,

but we'll have a reference to your company.

I don't even know if you, do you do social media

or you probably don't, do you?

- LinkedIn, but we have a lot of work to do on

that front.

- Okay, gotcha.

So, right now you're semi-incognito.

- That's right.

- Although I read you guys' bios,

I hadn't done a deep dive on your company

until just the last couple of weeks.

So, it's fun to see the website

and see all the pages of what you guys are up to

and whatnot. - Yes.

- But, Kevin, I really appreciated conversations

with you.

I love that in the midst of your just exemplary

service

and sacrifice, I love your candor on,

"Hey, I wanna give back,

"but there's also some other motives that get in

the heart.

"This isn't all a pure thing."

And I love your candor on saying,

"I want to increasingly do the right things

"for the right reasons."

And I appreciate the fact that you're still just

making

such an intentional investment

in your relationship with Jesus.

I think that when we talk about authentic manhood,

it's not just doing the so-called manly things.

I feel like for some guys, it's like manliness

equals

a hunt and a fish and I love football and all

this.

And hey, if that's your thing, that's great.

God bless you.

And if you're a musician or an artist, God bless

you.

But it's really, it's standing strong

for the important things.

It's a willingness to serve.

It's being real about the inner journey.

It's inviting others into that place.

And Kevin, you're living all those things out

and it's caring for your marriage and your kids.

And I just know that's a massive part of your

heart.

So thanks for your great example.

I know you're gonna inspire a lot of folks

who are listening today

and look forward to continue the relationship.

- Yes, thanks, Brian.

- Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with

Kevin.

And I know this is an obvious theme

during the entirety of the conversation, but

listen,

Kevin's done some of the toughest, bravest,

most courageous kinds of things you can imagine.

And yet, my man is doing daily devotions.

He's reading his Bible, he's praying,

he's making time to connect with his wife.

He's serving his kids well and he's such a great

dad.

I love watching him interact with his kids.

He's working hard, but he's also saying,

I wanna make plenty of time for community and

relationships

and I wanna get real in those relationships.

I don't want it just to be a bunch of having a

good time,

but we does that.

It's also, hey, we're gonna get real.

We're gonna talk about deep things of life and

faith.

And so I hope and pray this has been an

encouragement to you.

I don't know what your next step is,

but I know God probably has a next step for you.

And so the best thing you can do right now is say,

I'm not just gonna listen to another encouraging

message.

I'm gonna take a next step.

I'm gonna take some action here

in the way that the Lord might be prompting you

to do so.

Well, hey, if you have enjoyed this conversation,

please do rate and review us.

That helps so very much

and it's a great encouragement to our team.

This has been a production of Engedi Church.

We have more great conversations coming up.

So until next time, just know you were made to

advance.