PB_S2E14_REDHANDED_AUDIO_ONLY_0411 ===

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:00:00] Let's make this organic and fresh. Yes. Hello. Hi. Oh my God. We just met Hannah and Sarti for the first time. Hi you guys. Hi. Hi. Thank you so

Paul Adelstein: much for coming on.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Thank you for

Hannah Maguire: having us. Such a

Sarah Wayne Callies: pleasure.

Paul Adelstein: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Thank you also for like being a bright spot of uh, oh my god. Joy and laughter and feminist rage.

Um. At a time. Like I, I spent so much time in my car just trying not to cry uncontrollably. It's really fun to have you guys with me. Aw. And be like, oh, they're as mad about dumb shit as I am. So, um, that's

Suruthi Bala: why [00:01:00] we're here. That's round of our show. Crying in your car. Turn us on.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. By the way, if you don't have that on merch, that's a great ad.

Yeah. My suggestion. Crying in your car. Turn. Okay, let's introduce you guys so that people understand what is going on, because this is not genuinely, generally, or genuinely what our episodes look like.

Paul Adelstein: Yes. No, it's not. I'm

Sarah Wayne Callies: not genuine.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, you want me to read it? Sarah? We wrote a little script.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We, we wrote an intro.

All right. We wrote, I'm gonna do it because we're profesh. Mm-hmm.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, in the grand tradition of Prison Break, midseason, finales, and Breaks. Welcome to our Midseason episode, which is. Not a rewatch of the show, nor a discussion about the show. It is instead a digression to talk to some experts about how realistic this whole prison break plot is and why it does or doesn't matter.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And when we say experts, we mean the hosts of the massive True [00:02:00] Crime Podcast, red handed Hannah, Andi, or Sarti. And Hannah, depending on how you, we had a whole Sarah and Paul or Paul and Sarah thing. It's. And if you say podcast hosts aren't experts, not only do we say P to that, but they have written a book.

Toured the world with their podcast. Wow. And made us laugh our asses off when we listened to them. And that isn't expert enough for us. Plus, I did some creeping Sarti has a master's in economics and Hannah has a degree in social anthropology, all of which sounds very fancy and like they know what they're talking about.

And that is one, it's basically,

Paul Adelstein: those are degrees in podcasting these days. I think that's, that's what you need. That's study.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Also, Paul, neither you or I have degrees in economics, so I'm impressed.

Paul Adelstein: No, we don't. They're

Hannah Maguire: all a complete ruse to make us sound like we know what we're talking about. Thats, well, it works, worked very little actually about it.

Just lots of debt.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, I would like to add to this, that red handed won the listener's choice in the British Podcast Wars three years in a row was [00:03:00] included in Amazon Music's best podcast of the year in 2022. And in the, I didn't write this script, Sarah. I did, but I will just say this, in the bowels of the pandemic.

Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Was the pandemic not or shitty? Yes, it was shitty.

Paul Adelstein: It was shitty. Managed to become Britain's Top True Crime podcast in 2020 and we just really wanted to chat with them. We are honored to have them here. So Sru welcome.

Hannah Maguire: We're honored to video here. I don't think anyone's even bothered to write us an intro before.

Suruthi Bala: I know. I'm like, I'm gonna cry. Yeah. We have a whole moment over here. This is the most, even when we won those awards, nobody said these nice things about us. Really? Oh, very much. It's super impressive. Actors

Sarah Wayne Callies: and actors need a of runway of here's why. You're awesome. Oh my God.

Suruthi Bala: Well, we are British and we're sat here like, oh, this is

Paul Adelstein: right.

We're not

Suruthi Bala: always, people are saying some real nice things about us and also making us sound like experts, which I enjoyed. I enjoyed, [00:04:00] you're adorable. We say P to that, but we are also like, please don't set us up like that because us pretending not to be experts in everything, it's how we get by. We just be like, they're not experts.

I dunno. We'll, thing

Paul Adelstein: we'll say when we say experts we're talk because, because 'cause we do a podcast about. A fictional world. Mm-hmm. So the idea of an expert is, it's a murky, right. We had a, we had one of our favorite writers on from the show last year, and she said we would get really into the details of how a prison worked, Uhhuh.

And then there'd be something evolving electricity. And we'd be like, eh, it doesn't matter. Nobody cares.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Like he can hold his breath for seven minutes. No one's gonna Right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: People don't care that much. They don't care that much. Yeah.

So true crime is, entertainment is new to me. Mm. And it's obviously blown up. And there's this interesting intersection between [00:05:00] scripted crime, fake crime, and true crime. And the weird thing is, I think from listening to your podcast, some of the things that people do. Are so bonkers that if we read it in a script, the network would be like, no, no, we're not doing this.

This is, I mean, no one's gonna believe it. I

Paul Adelstein: mean, the one, uh, I listened to yesterday, the, what's his name? The South African tab. Besta, yeah, tab. That one.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Besta.

Paul Adelstein: You could make a show about that only 'cause it happened if you just pitched that show as a. Here's a story people will be like, and then he runs a media empire from his jail cell.

Like, no. And the doc and the beautiful successful doctor with the beautiful family who is like his lover. Like, no, we don't buy any of that. So. That one is bonkers.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's bonkers. Yeah. I mean, should we back up to How on earth did you end up [00:06:00] Yeah, that's what, that's where I wanna start. Prime non-experts.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. How did this have you, have you, I'm sure you've told this story a million times, but how, what is the origin story here?

Hannah Maguire: So, I used to live with an American, um, and it. In a, I'm super sorry. I'm sorry. Wow. He was so awful. He was, I hope he hears this and 'cause he knows who he is. Yeah, yeah. Um, anyway, I was living in a property guardianship, which is like a scheme that they used to have here in London where you paid less rent to essentially legally squat in an uninhabitable building.

Um, so, uh, I was doing that and he was also living there and he invited his entire extended family, um, to stay in this very tiny, very dangerous flat. And there were children and all sorts, um. And it was over Thanksgiving and he was like, oh, well we should do like a Thanksgiving meal. And I was like, oh, sure.

Like I want nothing more than to cook for these Italians on airbeds. Like, I can't, like, I can't even get into my own room anyway, so Oh, vegan as well. Vegan Thanksgiving. Not, uh, yeah, exactly. Straight. [00:07:00] I, I can't, pathological people pleaser agreed that I would cook it. Um, and then, uh, there was a guy who was staying with us, um, at the time and he was like, oh, can my friend come?

And I was like, well, what's one more fucking person? Like, whatever. Like, I'm already up to my fucking tip with this. Like, um, and we'll just carve the urky thinner. Um, and it was, it was ti and she'd just come back from traveling. Oh. Um, and we'd, I'd been living abroad and we'd both discovered podcasts at a similar time.

And back then. 20 16, 17, no one was listening to podcasts or even to listen to someone talk, who knew what one was, was quite something.

Paul Adelstein: Mm-hmm.

Hannah Maguire: And then we figured out that we were listening to the same ones that were true crime ones. And then we just got hammered and we're like the third one. And then we did, and now it's now

Suruthi Bala: we were both talking about the JonBenet Ramsey case.

Oh, right. Which is obviously. Up there for a lot of people in terms of like topnotch [00:08:00] fascination of a case.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And

Suruthi Bala: yeah, we Hannah's, right? There was lots of kids running around probably the age of JonBenet Ramsey. We were talking about how the small child had been murdered in her house and who had done it.

And we got very, very drunk and we were like, let's start a podcast. Mm-hmm. And I was like, dunno who we thought we were, but we actually did it. And we did it. It's amazing with like. Just a random 10 pound microphone. And fast forward now, definitely not an overnight success. Fast forward now eight, nine years later.

Wow. And that cut back to that intro you guys read, which was very much fun. Yeah. So impressive.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So, but I mean, you do an insane amount of research for this. Which I think we have a lot of respect for because all we do is rewatch a show we were already on and have forgotten. Yeah. And then talk to our friends who've also forgotten doing it.

And yet still have to

Paul Adelstein: read the Wikipedia, uh, recap. Be like, oh wait, what? Can you move that way a little bit? Can you move in a little bit? In frame a little bit? We wanna see you. Oh, there we go. Yeah. Thank you.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Four of you. But I mean, that's [00:09:00] a, so much was written about the JonBenet case. Yeah. Like that's a, that's an enormous amount of work it seems.

No,

Suruthi Bala: we didn't even tackle it for years. Mm. We didn't, we didn't cover it. It might have been the first case that Hannah and I ever discussed. Like, oh, but it wasn't your

Sarah Wayne Callies: first Oh, no.

Suruthi Bala: Oh, no, no, no, no,

Sarah Wayne Callies: no. Okay.

Suruthi Bala: There was a lot of cases, like when we first started doing it, it was so like. We were just so not convinced that it was ever gonna go anywhere.

Like we started the show and I remember we sat in Hannah's kitchen in her property guardianship being like, uh, should we sign up for this podcast platform that we have to pay for to release this piece of content that we think somebody's gonna wanna listen to? And it was like, do you wanna sign up for one month, three months, six months, 12 months?

And obviously you get a price break with every Bri. And we're like, let's just do one month. And we were like, whoa. I'm like this, you know, don't even know this girl. Like we're not gonna carry on doing this. And then it just kind of something good kept happening every month. And then even then though, we had this imposter syndrome of like, we [00:10:00] can't cover a big case like that.

We will expose ourselves. So we started off with like smaller cases, less maybe on the radar cases. And then it was when we got built up that confidence, and I don't remember what episode JonBenet Ramsey was, but it was not that long ago.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Hannah, I saw this in your bio, is that for folks who don't read great, because of learning disabilities or learning differences, this is an amazing entree into storytelling.

And that's something that I've found, you know, in my family, like I've got family who just, they're, some of them aren't readers because what it takes for them. To read through, you know, their neurodivergence is just too much. But podcasting has opened up access to storytelling, um, in ways that's really thrilling and really like, kind of stimulated their creativity.

Hmm. So, I don't know, I thought it was kind of beautiful to see that in your bio, that you found a way to [00:11:00] land in the storytelling space and help redefine it as outside of just print.

Hannah Maguire: That's a really nice thing to say. Thank you. Um, yeah. No, I, I don't read so good. Um, but it, uh, b like reading out loud at school used to terrify me.

Like I used to ask, not like, don't pick me. Um, and now I do it all the time, every day, um mm-hmm. And make fat stacks. So like it's, it, it has been quite a nice full circle thing for me. But no, I don't, I don't read in my spare time at all. I'm. Because of, um, my brain being broken, but also because I have to do so much of it at work that if I ever had a inch of enjoyment from it, it's been sucked right out of me.

Um, but that's okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Good to hear that podcasting has broken you. Um, feels about right. Um, okay, so next level. Do you guys have a top line take on like why people [00:12:00] are obsessed with true crime? Why it's such a massive genre?

Suruthi Bala: We get asked this quite a lot and I I bet. And I'm sorry to be repetitive. No, no, no.

I was gonna say, but it's, I'm curious and stupid interesting to talk about, and I think it comes back to what you guys were mentioning sort of immediately after the intro where you were like, is this a new phenomena or has this always kind of been around? Mm-hmm. And our point is. It kind of has always been around, but it's also a phenomenon.

So what I would say is like when we wrote the book, for example, we make a real big point of it in there. Is that true crime? Isn't really having a moment. It's like podcasting around true crime that is having a big moment. Okay? And yes, tv. 'cause obviously there's this big explosion of true crime documentaries.

I mean, Netflix, you only need to go on there and probably half of the top 10 is going to be some form of true crime or fake crime. Drama, something like that. Yeah, we are obsessed. But you know, the Victorians were obsessed. They were printing Penny Dreadfuls and they were obsessed with Jack the Ripper.

And so it isn't, um, and [00:13:00] also I have family in other countries and when I go there, the tv they're consuming, the news they're consuming is all just as grizzly and just as hardcore and just as crimey. So I think it is sort of a universal human, um. Human interest around true crime. And I think it is because it encompasses so many things.

Right. But I think ultimately what it comes down to, and this is what we kind of land on it, is that it is this kind of obsession with the extremes of human behavior. Mm-hmm. I think ultimately that's what it's about. And I think it reflects in other entertainment as well. I mean, if you watch, I always use this as an example, and maybe other people don't relate to it, but watching shows like.

Botched or, you know, my 300 pound life or whatever it might be, or married. Mm-hmm. You know, married at first sight or 90 day fiance. I'm just giving away all of the things I watch. But you know what I mean? It's all of these things that are, are, are just so extreme human behaviors or such extreme human.

Mm-hmm. Um, like ideas. And I think that's [00:14:00] ultimately what it is that we're obsessed with. And when it comes to crime, what can really be more extreme than. Murder or some of the horrific things that we talk about on red-handed. And so I think really that's all it is, that people are really fascinated with another theory that we do have and you know, can't really claim it to be ours, but it's this idea of like fear being such a hard wired, biological driver in humans.

I mean, fear is probably one of the most important. Uh, emotions or biological reactions that a human being can have because it's what enabled us to survive for billions of years. And so in the modern world, especially if you live like comfortable lives like we do, you're not really engaging in fear on a daily basis.

So maybe it is. A comfortable way. Have you heard the American

Sarah Wayne Callies: news lately?

Suruthi Bala: Just asking. Well, a comfortable way in which you can engage in extreme levels of [00:15:00] fear. Yeah. And then still close the book, or shut the laptop or take your headphones out and then go back to your normal life. Like, it is just, it's almost like roleplaying.

Yeah. Extreme fear. I, because it feed into something in us biologically.

Paul Adelstein: I say this with, uh, uh, with, uh, deference and please. Chop me down if I'm wrong, but I've had a few different women say, well, women love true crime, PA True crime Podcasts and stories, because that's what we live with every single day.

And we, it's a, it's a way to sit, like you're saying, like safely engage with it at, at a remove and understand it, or at least experience it without externalize it. Experie it. Yeah, externalize it like that. There's a communal

Hannah Maguire: that gets. Bounced around quite a lot. It does, and I think over time I've become less convinced by it because yes, like you will see the argument that women are arming themselves with information by con consuming true crime.

So like if they get [00:16:00] followed by a white van, like it won't be them. You know? I mean like it's it, but I don't think so because I think what is so interesting about true crime, I mean it's shifting, but it's still predominantly consumed by women. But the obsession, I feel like. Society feels like it has to explain why women like, uh, the McCab and why women are into the morbid.

But like men have been obsessed with genocide and war for years and no one says dick about that. That's like's true. Like men are just allowed to be completely obsessed.

Paul Adelstein: That's true

Hannah Maguire: with whatever war they choose. And no one cares. No one thinks that's weird or needs explaining.

Suruthi Bala: And people will often give us backlash.

And it's very rare and few and far between, thankfully. But this idea of like true crime as entertainment is somehow inherently wrong. But it's okay for the news to report on it because it's just the facts. But you storytelling it, um, is, is somehow perverse. And my argument to that is if you just watch it on the news and you are like.

10 sex workers got murdered. I'm, most people will [00:17:00] be like, yeah, that's sad and that's horrible. But to listen to a storytelling podcast where you understand about those people's lives and you understand what led them to make the choices they made and what led them to end up in the scenario that they were in and why.

Why they made certain choices that they made. For example, if it's a cult or whatever, it gives you a deeper feeling of empathy for it, which I think is really important that that removes that, well, it would never happen to me and those people must just be stupid or terrible or whatever. I thought,

Paul Adelstein: yeah,

Suruthi Bala: that my difference of true crime story, I mean, I,

Paul Adelstein: I thought it was really brilliant that you guys started the Tavo Besta story with the story of his mother.

And how she was abducted, raped. Mm-hmm. He was the product of that rape. She had a horrible life. Abandoned him like you, I mean, just that tiny piece of information. It didn't necessarily make you think like, oh, this poor guy, anything he does is okay, but it, it gave you a much. Larger perspective on his psychology [00:18:00] or even what, more, even more so what his life was probably like.

Um,

Hannah Maguire: totally. And with that, I think that's an important thing to do because no one, no one goes around murdering people for no reason.

Paul Adelstein: Right. However,

Hannah Maguire: I thinks far more interesting in look to look at like, okay, like these are the series of things that happen that have to happen to a human person. To make them capable of these absolutely abhorrent acts that either listener can't even imagine, right.

Thinking about, mm-hmm. I think that's much more interesting.

Paul Adelstein: Mm-hmm. So Sie you were saying, oh, I haven't watched prison. I I was at one point you were obsessed with prison break. Was that in the

Suruthi Bala: Yes.

Paul Adelstein: When was that? I imagine at your age? It wasn't in the original, uh, iteration. It wasn't

Suruthi Bala: in the original. I, I think if it wasn't in the original, it was very soon after.

So I'm 35 and I believe that prison break, was it 20 years ago? It was 20 years ago. 2020 years ago. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: You would've been 14, 15. Yeah.

Suruthi Bala: So I don't think I watched it when I was 14, 15. I think I watched it with my [00:19:00] mom. 'cause that's who I do all of my like, uh, TV show binge watching with. Yep. Um, I believe I did it the summer before I went to university.

Mm-hmm. So I think I was like three years. I think when season four was coming out, it was getting all the hype and you were catching up. I think I started watching season one then, and like caught up because I also enjoy when like the season's already out and I can just binge watch it with my mom. Yeah.

So we watched it and we were. Fucking obsessed and wait till I tell my mom that we did this and I sent her a screenshot with you to she's gonna lose her money. Um, no. I was obsessed. I was absolutely obsessed. I mean, are we talking like, and you guys gave us a lovely intro, so let me do the same, but only because it's genuine.

Like top tier tv. Top tier tv. It was so like compelling and just like so good to watch and I'm gonna rewatch it. I'm gonna rewatch it all. And just watching the little recap that we watched before we came in to do this, I was like. Oh my God, this show

Paul Adelstein: is so [00:20:00] good. Yeah, it's, uh, it's been really fun. One of the things that, uh, we've tried to do in, uh, speaking of context is we, we do a little index at the beginning of it about what was happening that like, here's what it was up against that week.

Here's what was going on in the news that week. Here's what was going on in pop culture in that week. And you know, we also talk a lot. First iPhone came out and yeah, first iPhone came, all that shit. But we also talk a lot about how different television was. Yeah. It was really the last. And first of a certain kind of cinematic thing, but also of a kind of, you have to watch this the day it comes out kind of thing.

Mm-hmm. Because when you were, if you watched it before you went to university, I imagine you were either. Running out and buying or running out and renting DVD sets. It would be DVDs, right? 'cause that's

Sarah Wayne Callies: all pre Netflix.

Suruthi Bala: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was on channel here.

Hannah Maguire: Oh. It was like the terrestrial tv, which you can only get on a certain day if it's not raining.

Oh. Like go get the aerial. Like so I, but then I think it was rereleased on Sky. I. [00:21:00]

Suruthi Bala: Yeah. Uhhuh because I don't remember getting DVDs. Okay. So you were We watched it on five so it must have been on Sky. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's what it was.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think I remember them flying me out to the UK to do Press For the Sky.

Suruthi Bala: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Thing. And I was like, we're doing press for reruns. They're like,

Suruthi Bala: well child Bri don't have a lot to do. It rains

Sarah Wayne Callies: all winter.

Suruthi Bala: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, um,

Suruthi Bala: well it worked 'cause I think that's when I watched it, prison Break was like the ideal kind of show 'cause it was like. The, yeah, it was just perfect. It was like thriller and it, you know, we'll talk about, obviously talk about this when you guys get into the questions, but it was like such compelling characters of like, they're perfect, like genius, um, like main character protagonist.

And then you've got like the perfect like villain to his like, you know. To equally genius, char, it was just perfect. It was so compelling. And I have to say, I know it's probably very like, I dunno, is this where most people land? 'cause you guys obviously have like a good, um, community around this show, but like [00:22:00] who was your favorite character?

For me it was definitely, I. What was his name? Theodore

Paul Adelstein: Teabag. Oh,

Suruthi Bala: Bagwell tba. Bagg T Bag. Yeah. He was my, I know he is a Badie, but Yeah. I mean, but he's so good, so juicy. I mean, that's on Brand for Juicy,

Sarah Wayne Callies: A True Crime podcast due to me like the most depraved a. Yeah, the most. Uh, but here's the thing. I don't know that if prison break were a true story mm, we would be juicy enough to make it onto your podcast.

Oh, this is what's fascinating to me. Come on. If he broke his

Paul Adelstein: brother and six people out of jail by getting himself thrown in jail and had his, had to engine, had had, he wasn't a

Sarah Wayne Callies: serial killer. There were no dead bodies floating at Rivers. Nobody. Well, yeah, but he didn't put 'em there

Suruthi Bala: a good one. It would totally, because like I said, we're not not interested in serial killers.

We are more interested in these kind of one off familial, like if you've ever done anything wrong before goes to prison, break his bro, like, ah, we'd be all over it.

Paul Adelstein: Sarah, ask more prison break questions. [00:23:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay. Okay. So if you, and I know it's been 20 years, 15 years, whatever. What would change now, by which, I mean we are now in a world I think, I don't know.

This is your world, where there is a like real time true crime feedback loop. Mm-hmm. Where when something happens, the interwebs. Weigh in as it's happening, as people are looking for suspects. So we're, we're doing the rewatch of season two right now, so I'm curious about what you think would change in the show.

Mm. If it was 2025, because the Fox River eight breakout, highly publicized, they keep cutting in the show to like someone's in a post office and someone looks behind them and they see the wanted poster. But now this was all literally pre-phone, just [00:24:00]

Paul Adelstein: Mm. Just

Sarah Wayne Callies: just Barry. But I mean, I feel like I

Paul Adelstein: keep saying, I feel like the show, one of the reasons the show.

Has life over and over and over again is, uh, because it's great and compelling, but also because it exists. It's a, there's enough technology that it doesn't feel like it's from the fifties, but it's not iPhone based, so it never feels anachronistic. It's like it has its own world and you can just, like, they can look shit up, but like they're having type, you know, it's, it's, it's perfect.

It's kind of exists in a perfect little InBetween space Anyway. That's so true. What are you, Sarah, are you asking what would the feedback loop of like what would the internet be saying about the Fox River eight? Or what changes in the story? Yeah. If we decide to call it true crime, I reboot

Suruthi Bala: now and you had to refilm season two when they're on the run.

Mm-hmm. Like how is that looking different to make it feel like it fits into 2025? And I think you are totally right. I think it is this weird in real life, [00:25:00] true crime obsessed. Community, if that's the right word that we're giving them. Sure. And we talk about this all the time on the show, is like, how. Ah, like with this explosion of interest in true crime naturally comes everybody thinking that, well, I could have done a better job than that.

The police are shit, this, that, and the other, and I would've done a better job than that and why didn't they just do this? And it's like, yeah, okay, but also shut up. And I think you see it in cases like say Gabby Petito. That was like a really, really stark example of one where people weren't necessarily investigating it, but they were so.

Overly invested in this case where they were like turning up at like Brian Laund, who is the guy who killed her, like his parents' house and like, uh, harassing them and picketing outside their house and doing all these weird things. Um, and also the case of Elisa Lamb, which was obviously the, the, the case that was, uh, that big Netflix documentary.

I dunno if you guys saw it, but it was about that I didn't. Young [00:26:00] woman, Elisa Lamb, who's found dead in a water tank, um, in uh, LA. Um, and basically people are like, it's like a mystery. How did she get in there? Was she killed? Was it kind of self-inflicted? Did she have some sort of psychotic break? And there's all this like CCTV footage that people are really fascinated by it.

And like all that happened is people were like accusing random people, like this musician of having killed her. They ruined his life. Ugh. And it's just like this vigilante like. Thinking they're doing this vigil, self-righteous vigilante mob that you have, who it's never been more true. That phrase of like a little bit of knowledge and how dangerous you Oh,

Paul Adelstein: oh boy, no doubt.

Suruthi Bala: Like that's a hundred percent be happening. I mean, if the. Season two was set. Now you would have everybody filming. Everybody they saw accusing everybody of being this person in disguise. Mm-hmm. Totally. Yeah. It would be Reddit threads, TikTok, ones of like, oh my God, guys, you'll never guess who I just saw [00:27:00] at the post office.

It wasn't just a wanted ad. It was, yes.

Paul Adelstein: And also let's just, and also just let's say there would be a lot of. Super hot criminals. Like these guys are hot. Like these guys are hot.

Suruthi Bala: I super hot mean Michael Lincoln, then Michael Lincoln, forget about

Paul Adelstein: it. Yeah, they'd have a lot of fan, they'd have a lot of fan

Suruthi Bala: fixable TikTok lust pages after.

Yeah. Way past

Paul Adelstein: Luigi Manji. This, this would be, this would be Luigi on steroids.

Suruthi Bala: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Which is, by the way, Luigi on steroids is a little bit dumb. Um, there's something. Interesting about that though, that like hot people get away with stuff differently. There's more of a pass it seems. Yeah.

Suruthi Bala: The halo

Sarah Wayne Callies: effect.

Is

Suruthi Bala: that something that's just in

Sarah Wayne Callies: tv halo effect? Would you guys, like what's the halo effect?

Suruthi Bala: The Halo effect is basically, yeah, this theory that, um. It's not just specific to true crime, it's just in general life, but essentially this idea that people who are attractive are associated with in [00:28:00] somehow being more good.

And so when you see it particularly in true crime, so again, talking of historical things like we can all think that Ted Bundy is subjectively not very attractive, but he was at the time and be sure thirsting after him. And so this idea that he wasn't actually guilty or it wasn't that bad or what he had done was, you know, still like lust worthy.

Because people found him attractive. Yeah, it's definitely a thing. And it's particularly interesting actually. You see this in um, cases where female. Teachers, oh my gosh. Have sexually abused male students.

Paul Adelstein: Mm-hmm.

Suruthi Bala: The more ATRA studies have shown, the more attractive she is, the less time she will serve, if any, in prison.

Because there's this underlying idea that, oh, well,

Sarah Wayne Callies: you know, I'd bang her. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's just like super fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so what you're saying for anybody listening is if you're gonna commit a crime, be hot. Bay Super Hall, go get a glow up at Sefa. Get a glow. Go get a glow [00:29:00] up.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Go keto.

This is

Sarah Wayne Callies: the, um, that's so disturbing. Yeah, absolutely. This is, this is a bit different, uh, because my character wasn't. Super Crimey on the show. Oh no. But the volume of She was my

Hannah Maguire: favorite though.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I knew I liked you.

Paul Adelstein: Thanks.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Appreciate you Han.

Paul Adelstein: Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm,

Paul Adelstein: I'm sorry. Not super, super crimey. Can we just, do you wanna go down the list or,

Sarah Wayne Callies: okay.

Season one. Okay. Mm-hmm. Apart from letting eight men out of prison mm-hmm. Apart from that, okay. Fair enough. And some medical, super fucking crisis and

Paul Adelstein: some medical malpractice earlier in the season.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Super crime, super crime Uhto, in fact, stole narcotics before the show even started. Fair enough. Okay. So the volume of letters I got from prison oh, was.

So shocking that my husband actually started a catalog [00:30:00] because he's like, I want names of these guys if they ever get out and we see them. It was wild. So this was back again, this is in the stone ages where people would send you a letter in an envelope, and usually it was, um, as part of my rehabilitation, I've started an autograph collection.

Would you send me a blah, blah, blah, blah. There would then be some, sometimes it was just that. Super sweet and Fox had us printed up eight by 10 whatevers, and you'd sign it. You know, dear Andrew, good luck doing your time. I dunno, what the fuck, Sarah? Or just sign the thing, mail it off. Um, I wish this were not true.

Uh. But it, it sometimes it was slightly more like I feel connected to the way that, and like they developed this sort of parasocial relationship with, first of all, what I learned is they were showing the show in prisons and I'm like, I don't know. [00:31:00] Strategically airing prison break in prisons. That is shocking, feels wild.

Um, but they definitely did that. Wow. What I learned is that there is a subset of people, there's a demographic of people who feel very connected. And this is kind of the reverse of what you're talking about, of women going, you've committed crimes, I wanna be with you. But, um, it, it was, it was really wild and it would be stamped in the corner, you know, Alabama Corrections.

PRI inmate, blah, blah, blah. Wow. And we would sit there on a Sunday, usually once a month, and you'd like go through the stack and I'd be like, got another one for you. My husband would be like, all right, so if this guy ever gets out, yeah. It was totally wild. It was totally wild. That's so funny.

Suruthi Bala: Because, yeah, I was absolutely gonna say, I mean, I know it's not the same thing, like they're not actually thinking you're a criminal, but yeah, the other way around for the men, like having that kind of fixation on female criminals is quite rare.

I think [00:32:00] when we wrote the book, we really tried to find examples of it and the only one we've really come across is actually with Lucy Lepe. I dunno if you guys have kept up with that case that's happened in the uk that it's a very, very controversial case here. Basically this, this young nurse, I think she's about the same age as us, um, has been convicted of.

Murdering like seven babies in prison. She was a nurse, but, and this is controversial. We don't think she did it. Um, so anyway, that's a whole nother cat offish. Oh. And she has been receiving love letters from men in prison. Um, so that's very rare. Um, but no, it's very interesting. It's very interesting.

That's

Sarah Wayne Callies: super bonkers. Have you have, have, has your show interacted with other. IRL cases. I mean, I'm thinking like, you know when they did that documentary on Robert Blake and he confessed on a hot mic and like went to prison?

Hannah Maguire: No, we, we will very rarely. Cover a show that hasn't already been adjudicated.

'cause in it's, in the US it's less, um, [00:33:00] strict. But in the uk, if we say anything that is even, um, oh as very specific legal language, but we can be in contempt of court. And

Paul Adelstein: libel laws too, I would imagine in England are

Hannah Maguire: on that kind of thing. Right. Tricky. But no, I do you know what, like, we're not. We are not even investigative journalists, let alone like actual investigators.

Like who gives a fuck what we think? Like why, like no one's gonna like loads

Sarah Wayne Callies: of people, by the way, is

Suruthi Bala: No. We always say we're, we're a storytelling podcast. We're storytellers and Hannah's completely right When the Lucy Lippi case went on, 'cause if it was anything, we would be involved and it would probably be British.

Um, but literally we wrote the case. We waited and then she was sentenced. And then the day she was sentenced, we released the episode the next day. Oh my God, my God. 'cause anything before that, okay, we're gonna get cease and desist letters. All get called. Called up in front of a court in contempt of court.

Right. And it's just not worth it. Right? Which is why we love doing us cases, because we can say whatever the fuck we want. Don't, don't care. [00:34:00] Um, but no, uh, no. We've never really, never really. Been reached out to, but we're okay with that because we we're kind of happy with where we are. Because again, it comes back to that thing of like the vigilante mob, right?

I'm not saying we sit in that, right? But I think this idea of like inserting ourselves into an in real life, um, as it's unfolding case feels really unethical and weird and not where our skillset is. Um, we just want somebody else to solve it, and we will tell the story in a nice way and you'll tell everyone about it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Do you think, I mean. Like I said, I was listening to the David, however you say that. Um, episode, I think that was right. Yeah. Thanks. I appreciate it. Yeah. Viva French. I still dunno. Oh, by the way, listening to you guys and the French is just part of the fun. It's fantastic. Um, it's 'cause

Suruthi Bala: our producer who edits it, it's French, so it's fun to

Sarah Wayne Callies: find.

Oh, oh, poor guy. Um, [00:35:00] uh, what it made me wonder, given how. Just bonkers. The whole thing was is do you think that the profusion of True crime podcasts like yours has changed the bar on what audiences consider a bridge too far? Like it made me wonder if they wrote Prison Break. Now with all the shows like yours out there, would it be considered sort of too tame?

Hannah Maguire: Hmm. Would it, you know, not necessarily. I think I was really thinking about this this morning and like the question of like, 'cause we often say on the show, um, when something happens that seems just too outlandish or even like, too, like someone wrote it, but it's mm-hmm. It's true. It happened. Sarah will often say, like, if someone wrote that in a show in a TV show, I wouldn't believe it.

I'd be like, yeah, whatever. But like it does [00:36:00] happen. And I was really thinking about why do we expect reality from fiction and it definitely happens. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think it's because, because the world is difficult to understand and we know more about what's going on and how fucked it is than we ever have before.

Paul Adelstein: Mm-hmm.

Hannah Maguire: We now more than ever, I think want our fiction to make sense because nothing else does. Right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, right. Which then brings us to the like, what about fake true crime? Mm-hmm. Right? I mean, 'cause there was that guy, I just read about it recently. He had some YouTube channel, what was it called? I wrote it down here.

True crime

Paul Adelstein: calls or something. Yes.

Suruthi Bala: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It was revealed that he was just AI generating.

Suruthi Bala: Yeah, it's interesting stuff.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's

Paul Adelstein: so lazy. There's so many crimes.

Suruthi Bala: This is like, that was my main gripe with the [00:37:00] whole situation. I'm just like, why? Because then like

Paul Adelstein: there's

Suruthi Bala: so many crimes, so much crime out there that you don't have to be making it up to, to find compelling stories.

And I actually think, you know, to, to come off the pack, what Hannah was saying is like. Yes, like fictitious crime, like crime dramas, things like that. It is hard to, to think of enough things because actually, like some of the stuff that's happened in real life is just so bad you couldn't even make it up.

I mean, can you take for example, like another Ryan Murphy, like Creation, the first one monster, where Jeffrey dama, if somebody just wrote that, you'd be like, what? What the fuck? Like he was eating people, making sandwiches, putting their penises in the fridge. Like you'd just be like, this person's gone nuts.

And it makes no sense. No

Paul Adelstein: chance I, right.

Suruthi Bala: And yeah. And it's just so unbelievable. I, and I

Paul Adelstein: think, yeah. Sorry, go ahead.

Suruthi Bala: No, I was just gonna say, I dunno why he felt the need to make those up. I guess it's just laziness because it was easier than having to research the cases around. It was just super trolling, I think.

Yeah. Or it's just super trolling. I really super Oh, you

Paul Adelstein: think,

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:38:00] you think it's super ing. You think it was like a.

Suruthi Bala: Yeah, like a way of dragging So fucking pleased with himself. Name true Crime case files. It sounds like it is. It sounds like what it claims he claimed it was, which was this absurdist art form.

Right. I can get it. I think especially this, a explosion of like true crime podcast interest leaves it open to kind of jabs left, right, and center. And we're also totally seeing that with like, um, uh, new TV dramas that are being made now where it's like they have a true crime podcaster and they're either this like, uh, this like vessel of like virtuous investigative journalism.

Or they're a total charlatan. They're a total scumbag. Yeah. There's one, uh, set in Ireland right now. We're boken. There's one set. Inkin.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Suruthi Bala: And yeah, it's just like, it's funny, like I don't care, but I think I, I prefer the ones where they're making fun of the true crime podcaster rather than the ones where they're treating this podcaster with like loads and loads of reverence.

Mm-hmm. Because I think probably the place that's evolved from [00:39:00] is this kind of mistrust. Establishment and a mistrust in the police, and then introducing a fictional podcast into the mix gives this idea of like, well, this person can be trusted.

Paul Adelstein: Well, and

Suruthi Bala: I'm

Paul Adelstein: like, yeah, it's, well, it's a trope, right? I mean, amateur, amateur sleuth goes all the way back to Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys and even earlier, right?

There's a kind of an innocent view of the thing. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So part of what my takeaway is, and then we'll, we'll wrap this up. I know this is going super long and you guys need to eat dinner. Um, but part of my takeaway is we allow a level of absurdity in true crime because it happened, and we have totally different rules for scripted, uh, for scripted shows.

I mean, if somebody made, I'm, I hate to keep coming back to this Dran thing, but it, I was literally, my jaw was just on. The floor, if [00:40:00] somebody submitted that as a script, a hundred percent. Just like also, you know, Hollywood, you can't write, this is preposterous. You couldn't make, the thing you were saying is like,

Paul Adelstein: you couldn't make Dahmer unless it had really happened, but because it really happened.

Yeah. People will tune in to watch it. I mean, it gives you a certain, uh, what a writer friend of mine calls the House of Buys, which is like really like, Hey, it happened. It happened. It happened. Okay. And it's like there's a, I don't know, as somebody who also writes, it kind of makes me, it kind of pisses me off.

I kind of get it like you want to be able to write the craziest shit possible, but also,

Sarah Wayne Callies: but imposters was so much tamer than any one of the episodes that they cover. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Paul Creator show about called imposters, about a con woman and like. It would've been amazing if you could have taken swings like this.

It would've made for phenomenal TV and you would've been panned and That's right. That's true. That's true. That's kind of wild to me. Right. You know what I mean? Variety would've been like Paul Stein's [00:41:00] lost his goddamn mind. I also think, but I also

Paul Adelstein: think

Sarah Wayne Callies: that there's a, he's tripping acid stop.

Paul Adelstein: There's a difference between, um.

I mean, I think a lot of shows that are based on things that are real are simply, um, spectacle and there's nothing insightful about them. Mm. Dahmer was insightful. Oh, that's interesting. About its treatment of gay culture, about race. Where it played with the police and all those things. Mm-hmm. Like imposters.

We tried to make it, I mean it was pretty light fair, but we tried to make it about a larger idea, about shifting identity about is love a little bit of a con and all these things. I think when you're, sometimes, when you're basing something on this wild shit that happened, you just need to present wild shit.

Like, there's nothing else really going on there other than look how fucked up humans are, which is, you know, most dramas about anyway. But I think that like you don't have to always be going for the most shocking [00:42:00] thing. If you have characters that are, I don't know, I'm gonna stop talking.

Hannah Maguire: No, but you're, it's true.

I get what you're saying. Like people are gonna be fucked off whatever you do, so just have a nice time. Exactly. I mean, and

Suruthi Bala: I completely agree with this idea of like, um, like what Hannah was saying is that with real, with the fake crime dramas, it has to make more sense. So you are constrained by the parameters of a story that concludes in a way that is sat.

Factory to the audience, because earlier this morning we were recording, um, for our Patreon content, like an update on what's going on with the Idaho Student Murders case, which was like, oh, obviously a huge, huge, huge story. Like unbelievable. And again, if that was like, maybe it could pass as like an episode of Criminal Minds, but to make out a whole series on that, you'd be like, mm-hmm.

This is nuts. This is nuts. There's no way bonkers. Oh, and two of the girls survived and they were in the basement and they saw a guy, like, it'd just be, it'd just be bonkers,

Paul Adelstein: right.

Suruthi Bala: People have lots of questions about that. Been, especially since the nine one one call came out and people are like, why didn't they do this?

Why didn't they call earlier? And we're just like, 'cause true crime and real life [00:43:00] is really messy, really fucking

Paul Adelstein: messy.

Suruthi Bala: A little like you can tie to the end of everything, but when you guys are writing like. Fake crime dramas. There has to be a satisfactory answer to why they didn't call the police until 10 30.

And also because it can't

Paul Adelstein: just be like, you know,

Suruthi Bala: because that's what people do.

Paul Adelstein: We tell stories to live, right? Mm-hmm. Like you were saying, sui, like we, we tell the ourselves these stories to try to make some sense, even if exactly. Even if it only makes sense to us about how those people did what they did, there's gotta be some kind of catharsis.

I mean, it's a huge part of, huge part of writing and real life doesn't have that. I, I always talk about this, we can cut this too, that, uh, in terms of like how we view celebrities or how we view even, how we view success, that we've kind of, we have this eru Hollywood story version of people's lives now that they follow a narrative arc.

I did this, and then I hit rock bottom and then we dah dah da dah. And here I am at the Oscars. Mm-hmm. And it's like, that's not how it, that's only in retrospect.

Hannah Maguire: Yeah. Everyone's story makes sense. In reverse.

Paul Adelstein: In reverse. That's right. [00:44:00] Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, anything you guys wanna say about anything about us before we about, um, we have a wrap up. Yeah. Questions minutes. We have two wrap up.

Paul Adelstein: Fun wrap up questions.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay. I actually have three. I've got another one for them. Oh. Oh, alright. Uh, but is there anything you guys wanna say first? Anything? You know, just,

Suruthi Bala: I am a hundred percent we hate you guys to this A waste of to rewatch prison break that is for sure happening.

And my partner's never watched it and I was like telling him I was obviously gonna be on the, uh, do the show with you guys today. And I was like, oh my God. We're rewatching it. We're not rewatching it for him. Watching it for the first time. Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna watch the whole thing. I'm so excited. And the little recap we watch today has made me pumped.

Bring on more teabag. Uh,

Paul Adelstein: we, uh, I know.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Nope, you don't. It's great. I'm

Paul Adelstein: totally here for it. Say it to everyone you know. Then tell me what happens. One of the fun things about rewatching it is you like, uh, I remember a lot of the huge tur, twi turns, but, [00:45:00] um, boy, each episode has like 10 micro, micro turns in it that are incredible.

Suruthi Bala: Yeah. Yeah, it's very satisfying. It was being punched in the face, watching a 20 minute recap of season one. We were like, this is season one. Yeah. Not all of the seasons. Yeah. So that's excellent work. Excellent work guys. And

Hannah Maguire: I would like to thank you and the entire Prison Break team for teaching me Penda Hill as a word.

Oh great.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You never left me. I think you can probably just leave that one with sre. That was, that was all a Maori all the time. I'm never even sure if they wrote it in. Yeah, like there were times where he'd just say stuff, oh, that's cool. And there weren't a lot of Spanish speakers around. Right. I'll be perfectly honest.

There are times where I was like, I don't think you could. Is that something you can say on tv? I don't think you could say it on TV now.

Paul Adelstein: Probably not. I don't think you could say it on TV now. No way.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Probably not leveraging the stupidity of single language speaking Americans. A Maori got a whole bunch of cool shit in there.

Okay. Not to mention [00:46:00] executives.

Paul Adelstein: I mean, the teabag thing as an example, we, we were constantly asking the writers like. How did you, and they're like, nobody ever said anything.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Love it. 'cause in theory, nobody knew.

Paul Adelstein: Nobody knew. And then somebody, nobody knew. Somebody, some young staffer knew and it was like, I'm not, I'm not telling them, are you gonna be the one I'm not gonna hear, one I'm not telling.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, okay. So wrap up questions. Uh, we'll start with you Sarti. If you are on death row, oh, what's your last meal?

Suruthi Bala: I feel like because we shot in

Sarah Wayne Callies: a real death row and it was creepy. Yeah. What would you eat?

Suruthi Bala: I feel like, uh, yeah, so assuming I have an appetite, 'cause I'm about to be, be, be murdered by the state, um, then I think it changes all the time.

I think before I've definitely said it would be like my mom's cooking and like, you know, get her out there to get me something. But right now I'm having a real MSG moment and it would probably be a Chinese hot pot. Mm. Oh yeah. Neither but not, you know, at least you've gotta gimme two hours. You've gotta gimme two hours with that hot pot.

And that's, that's what I need. Yeah, that's what I need. It's the

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:47:00] night before you, you're not being executed by the state. Oh, oh. For like a, sorry, 15 hours. Oh, I never thought of that. I need,

Suruthi Bala: right. Maybe it's also because of my like, uh, I'm being triggered by my hotpot experience. 'cause my favorite place I go to have hotpot in London, they only give you 90 minutes.

And I'm just like, why are you trying to throw me out? 90 minutes is not enough. There's still so much hot pot left. Terrible. So yes, at least two hours. It's gotta be, especially since it shows up hot and spicy, like where your mouth is numb. Yeah. And yeah, that's it. That's my, that's my difference. Okay. I love that answer right now.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay. So Hannah, um, if you were on the run, we're on our season two question now. Where would you go to hide out from the law for the rest of your life? Where would you go and who would you bring with you?

Hannah Maguire: Uh, absolutely fucking nobody 'cause trust. No bitch. That's what you can't, you can't take anyone with you.

I like you so much. No, absolutely no solo. Um, I think a lot of people make the mistake of going [00:48:00] very rural, um, ah, because people who live there, they all know each other. Why are you there? So it would have to be an urban setting where I don't stand out, looks wise. But I'm always gonna fall at a language hurdle.

I think I Glasgow. It could be mute. I could be, I think, I think Finland. Somewhere in Finland, yes. So in case anyone wants to, oh, I was gonna say,

Paul Adelstein: like, I was gonna say like, enjoy St. Petersburg

Hannah Maguire: have, you know, connection to as well. Yes. Uh, that has to be that. Yeah. I de, I mute in Finland. Yes. Quite. I'm here.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That'll blend right in. Um.

Hannah Maguire: It's dark half the year, they won't know.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's true. They're all seasonally depressed for six months, an entire year. Okay, and this is not a question we usually ask people, but I'm curious from you guys, from each of you, what crime did you commit to get yourself locked in a federal penitentiary?

I

Hannah Maguire: Luigi someone. You what? Ieg.

Paul Adelstein: Luigi Someone. Luigi. Luigi. Somebody.

Suruthi Bala: Copy that. Copy that. Mm-hmm. [00:49:00]

Paul Adelstein: Yep.

Suruthi Bala: If my younger days are anything to go by, it's some form of arson probably. Wow. I would say cult. I would say cult, but then people management is just a fucking nightmare. Yeah. Yeah. Just set fire to something.

'cause that is really fun.

Paul Adelstein: You think the cult thing, like, and do you think it doesn't start as a death cult and then the, the, the. Cult leader, just like, you know what, fuck all you people.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I, I have no time for

Suruthi Bala: this. They're just like, oh, I want out of this shit. Yeah. I'm shutting it down. Like, and you can't Yeah.

But you can't just shut it down and be like, SOLs, guys, I was lying about everything. You can go home now. You gotta kill more. You gotta rid, you've gotta coolaid it. Turn it to the ground. Yeah. Burn down. So I would totally. On an ambitious day, I'd say cult leader on an unambitious day. I'd say some sort of arsonist.

You could combine 'em. Maybe

Sarah Wayne Callies: it's both. You could combine them. Maybe you started a cult and ended up, don't, don't forget you're in a federal penitentiary. You can commit all the credit. Yeah, that's right. It's amazing.

Suruthi Bala: That's

Sarah Wayne Callies: fun. Um, you guys, thank you. Thank you guys. This has been really fun. Oh, thank you so much.

We really, really enjoy. [00:50:00] What you guys are up to. Yeah, I think it's fantastic. Thank you. Forward to having listened to two of the episodes

Paul Adelstein: now. I can't wait to start from the beginning and listen to six years worth. I'm

Hannah Maguire: it. Oh, thank you. Don't go all way back. Yeah,

Suruthi Bala: yeah. Forgive the early sound quality. Uh, we didn't know what we were doing.

We're still, we're still

Paul Adelstein: fighting our sound quality battles, so I have no judgment on that for they

Sarah Wayne Callies: were drunk gonna council flat. It's great. Um. And we look forward to seeing you on the set of the, uh, Amazon adaptation of the Dividian. Yeah. Um, which I really, truly want to see. I just think it's, so, first of all, the costumes, the location, it's like if Downton Abbey were French Yes.

And fucked. Yeah. Yes.

Hannah Maguire: That's exactly it. Wow. That's a pitch. You pitch it,

Sarah Wayne Callies: you can have

Hannah Maguire: it. You

Sarah Wayne Callies: pitch it when, when you

Suruthi Bala: come do an interview,

Paul Adelstein: don't, don't tempt her. She'll do it.

Suruthi Bala: It's gonna be

Sarah Wayne Callies: be so much fun. We're gonna call Canal Plus. Do we have an idea for you?

Suruthi Bala: Do it. Do it. And, uh, thank you guys so much for having us on.

This was, it was a pleasure, fun. We, uh, [00:51:00] rarely do these wonderful guested one and we had a really great time. And you're ever in London. Come say hi to us. Yeah, totally. We take you pro Chinese hot pot and set fire to something that great.

Paul Adelstein: Fantastic.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm holding you entirely to that. Half my family lives in the uk.

Anytime,

Suruthi Bala: anytime. Just give us the cool.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Brilliant. Thank you guys. Thank you

Paul Adelstein: guys so much.