File: Will Cleasby Webpage Version

Key

L: = Interviewer, Lesley
WC: = Participant, Will Cleasby
[time e.g. 5:22] = inaudible word at this time
[5:22 IA] = inaudible section at this time
word = best guess at word
- = interruption
? = trailing off or change of thought, mid-sentence

L: How long have you lived around the Crowdundle, Acorn Bank area?

WC: All of my life.

L: in the same place?

WC: No, not in the same place, so the family home was in Temple Sowerby, couple of years studying away, but since then moved back to Temple Sowerby, and then in 2016 moved down to a little farm right next door to the Crowdundle.

L: Right, so does the river actually go through your property?

WC: It borders our property.

L: Tell me what you know about Crowdundle beck then.

WC: What do I know about it? Physically it sources up on the top of Cross Fell and comes down either side of Cross Fell and confluences just near Millburn, then runs through New Biggin Hall and then runs down past Acorn Bank, past Mill Rig Farm, and confluences with the Eden down there. So it drains at the highest point the Pennines, so it?s a relatively short river in terms of its length from source to where it confluences with the Eden, so consequently it?s very fast flowing, rises very quickly in a storm or a snow melt, because there?s not much distance between its gradient and where it confluences, so we get a lot of what could be described as flash flooding around the bottom. And that flooding often brings up negative connotations, but we must accept that flooding of rivers is a natural process and it?s very important for keeping the river clean and cleaning the gravels and sediment in the river. Because of the Crowdundle?s physical nature, because it?s starting very high, runs very steep over a short distance, it has very clean gravel so it?s got a very diverse biodiversity or nature within it. So in the whole of the Eden catchment, it?s probably the best spawning catchment for Atlantic salmon, it has a good autumn salmon run up it where the salmon run up to spawn, and when it?s surveyed it has really high numbers of salmon fry in it.
And then related to that, because of the cleanliness of the gravel and the diversity of the gravel, its invertebrate population is very diverse as well and I believe there are insects found within the Crowdundle which are new to science, so from a nature point of view it?s incredibly important. And because it drains the Pennines it drains over a pocket of limestone geology so it?s very nutrient rich, so you get a big diversity of species in it, and it?s one of the few tributaries on the Pennine which has white clawed crayfish in it. Never actually seen a live white clawed crayfish within the Crowdundle beck, however in September of 2024 when I was out walking with my children along our farm track, I found the claw of a crayfish, which I was really heartened by. Sad to see a dead one but you get them at that time of year because that?s when otters will start to congregate around crayfish rich areas and they will feed on the crayfish. So that was really heartening to see that because I had my doubts that there was actually crayfish within the Crowdundle beck, but I suspect given that we found it just 20 yards away from the river?s edge, it?s really nice that there probably is a population in there.

L: It might be nice if you take a photograph of that if you?ve still got it.

WC: I might have one on my phone, I?ll check back through and see. It?s just a tiny claw about, I?m measuring with my fingers, about the length of your thumb.

L: Five centimetres.

WC: Indeed. Yeah, so I guess that?s what I know about the nature of Crowdundle beck and its biodiversity. My father?s, well, our family has a long association with the area, so my great grandfather was one of the founders of the parish council in Temple Sowerby and we?ve farmed in this area for, I?ll be the fifth generation, I think, so we?ve been around for a bit. So my dad learnt to fish in the Crowdundle beck, probably trotting worms for brown trout or something.
L: Do you fish?

WC: I don?t, no. I have done but I don?t at the minute. I just like going to find fish and spotting them, and that?s incredibly difficult to do in the Crowdundle because it?s got, under the older trees it?s got these really deep, dark pools which you know something?s in but it?s really tough to see them. The best place to spot them is actually if you?re in Acorn Bank gardens and you stand at the top of the bank and you look down into the river and you can spot them there, maybe above the weir and places like that, those are the best places to actually see brown trout fliting about on the river.

L: I might come back to you on some of that because there is going to be a project on the weir, I don't know much about it at the moment, but if it involves us taking care of species, we might come back to you on that one, if that?s OK?

WC: Yeah.

L: At the moment we are conscious there?s going to be a project to improve the weir, but in improving things we sometimes ?

WC: Yeah, it?s very controversial, isn't it, because the weir and the mill obviously is heritage feature and very important kind of artefact of our industrial heritage, but then it also impacts on our natural heritage as well and the migration up the river of species, but also the movement of sediment downstream and that impacts the downstream part of the river as well. Which interestingly, I guess our section of the Crowdundle beck is all modified, and we understand that it would be probably either during the Second World War or some afterwards either as part of the war [6:03] work to improve the flow of water and consequent drainage of land. And if you look at how it?s been improved, it?s very similar to neighbouring tributaries like the Trout beck and how it?s been modified and straightened. It?s not been brutally done as in some sort of trapezoidal channels that you find in rivers, but it is, I guess its natural processes are slightly restricted in terms of the restrictions that are done, and you can see the remnants of the oxbow channels on our land.

L: Oh, right, so yeah, well that?s interesting. I?m thinking about the James Rebanks? latest book, I don't know whether you?ve read it, he talks about getting his rivers, his drainage re-wiggled so I don't know whether that?s something that you?ve been thinking about maybe?

WC: Yeah, I spent 16 years working for the Eden Rivers Trust so I did all sorts of jobs for those, and a lot of that was on river restoration and re-meandering, and yeah, I think, I mean our section of the Crowdundle is relatively short, so what I can achieve on my own in terms of a river restoration project is quite limited, because you need contiguous pieces of land and big sections, but if there was a project to look at pulling all that together, I?d be very interested to see what part we could play.
L: I like the fact that you call it re-meandering and I call it re-widdling.

WC: Yeah, well I think everybody has got a different idea of what a river should do, and that depends a lot on, maybe your house has been flooded regularly, or your own relationship with nature, but a river is a dynamic thing, in my view, you can never stand in the river and see the same bit of water twice, and it?s the same with how it moves and functions, and river restoration should be not taking a river from this static environment now to a different static environment, it?s about setting a platform for natural processes to take over.

L: You?ve told me a lot about the river, is there anything more on the invertebrates and the species that live off the invertebrates in the area?

WC: Well I?m not an ecologist so I?ve a fleeting knowledge, but in terms of the invertebrates, it?s quite timely and it?s quite controversial, isn't it, because we talk about the collapse of the bee population and things like that, and invertebrate collapse and it?s obviously a big issue because it underpins our existence really.

L: Yeah, and the birds live off them and ?

WC: Yeah, it?s kind of a cornerstone of the whole natural environment. But I do feel that at times, I spend, well I live next door to the Crowdundle, I spend a lot of time in nature with my work, I do think at times it?s perhaps overegged for an agenda. You have to accept that different insects hatch at different times and if you go out at the right time, the right time of day, the right time of the year, you will see some colossal insect hatches coming off the Crowdundle, particularly ?

L: Flies, or ??

WC: Well like mayflies is a good example, it?s fantastic for mayflies. Most summer evenings, if the weather is biddable, we take the children out on their bikes or something up the farm track which runs parallel to the Crowdundle, and some of the clouds of insects on there are just phenomenal. The challenge that we have as farmers, society is asking a lot of farmers, it wants more and cheaper food, it wants a healthy environment, it wants climate change, it wants us to use less antibiotics, the wants on farmers are massive but the resource put into food production is less and less and less, and that?s the challenge that we have. How are we going to, in the future, farm with nature, farm in a way that?s socially acceptable but in a way that also allows us to make some money and earn a living?

L: What?s the feelings, the emotional connection to this area? It?s a working environment, you?ve obviously got investment in the future with your children, you?ve got investment from your heritage as well.

WC: Yeah.

L: So tell me a little bit about the heritage and maybe when you were growing up, what you noticed.

WC: Yeah, the emotional connection is massive, so as I said, in terms of my parents, grandparents, great grandparents, there?s a massive family legacy. And then when I got older and into double figures and such, we?d come round with our pals and make dens down the river and things like that, so that type of, that evokes a lot of memories.
And then for myself, I met the children?s mother when I was working on the rivers, so yeah, the rivers have been good to me really, and my kids, both of them like spending time, it doesn?t have to be by the river, but just outside. Probably their favourite pastime actually, to do with the river, is playing Pooh sticks at Mill Rig bridge.

L: Do they actually come to the Acorn Bridge property now? Do they visit or do they just stay around the farm?

WC: Yeah, no, we come up now and again. it?s a good place to meet friends and have a coffee and just let the kids run around. We tend to come up as well for the run, like to see that.

L: It?s a big part of your life around here?

WC: Massive, yeah.

L: And it will be, will continue to be, won?t it?

WC: Yeah. With the family being here for so long we?ve strong connections, and you?re tied to the land in some respects, you bond to it.

L: And you don?t get away very much, I suppose?

WC: Well, I don't want to. Why would you? It?s just, it?s amazing. And Acorn Bank and the property and the history behind it, it does have a magical property about it, if you know what I mean.

L: I do, that?s my [12:36 IA]

WC: Yeah, and the gardens and everything and the work?s that gone into them, and the walks around the wood, it?s a real asset to the community, I think. There?s obviously a big population of crows, which from a farming point of view can be quite frustrating, but it?s part of the landscape, and you know, Crowdundle, it?s Crow River Valley, and so we like to call it Crow River Valley because it just sounds different, doesn?t it.
L: What?s the generation of, is that Norse or ??

WC: I don't know. Probably a bit of Norse, isn't it, there?s a lot of Norse around.

L: I?ll look it up and find out. I loved the bit you said where it feels magical and it obviously is something magical for your kids now as well. Is there anything that would take that away as far as you?re concerned? Anything that would spoil that?
WC: I think it?s just about everybody being sensitive, isn't it, and that?s whether you?re a farmer going about your business and trying to get by, or whether you?re a large environmental NGO trying to do its best for its members and make some money along the way, or you?re somebody with a couple of dogs walking and collecting up your dog muck afterwards. It?s about everybody being sensitive and it doesn?t matter whether it?s the Crowdundle beck or your local park in the city, it?s about being sensitive and respecting that everybody?s got a different view and it means different things to different people. I obviously spent two years working in the Lakes and we?ve seen how inundated a lot of the valleys have become with tourism and the conflicts that that can cause between people who want to try and earn some money from tourism, people who want to operate their lives around who aren?t involved in tourism but are struggling, and that?s something I?m conscious of. Personally I wouldn?t want to see a massive exploitation, either from a land use, farming perspective, or from a tourism perspective, or anything, it?s about striking a balance, isn't it, allowing everybody to have a crack at achieving what they want to achieve but in a way that?s sympathetic to everybody else?s view. And that?s really tough, that?s a hard thing to do.

L: That?s what you?re aiming for.

WC: Yeah, I think the first port of call is, and this is why projects like this are really important, it?s about giving people a voice in that and taking people with you in terms of what you want to achieve. When we did river restoration in Rivers Trust, it was very close to the large scale flood events, close in terms of time, and it raised very emotive things for people, but you have to take people along with you if you want to win them over. I guess personally, as you?ve probably picked up, Crowdundle, the whole area really is very special to me, and the Crowdundle beck is a golden thread that runs through it all for Temple Sowerby and the surrounding area.