INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where

INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection

INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.

INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together

INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: I'm Alexis Golden, and I'm a project

ALEXIS GOLDEN: development manager at the NSPCC.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: I'm leading the development of our

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Pregnancy in Mind service.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Pregnancy in Mind is a preventative service

ALEXIS GOLDEN: designed to support parents who are at risk

ALEXIS GOLDEN: of, or experiencing, perinatal mental

ALEXIS GOLDEN: health difficulties.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: NHS England defines perinatal mental health

ALEXIS GOLDEN: problems as "problems which occurred during

ALEXIS GOLDEN: pregnancy or in the first year following

ALEXIS GOLDEN: the birth of a child".

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Examples include postnatal and antenatal

ALEXIS GOLDEN: depression; anxiety; OCD;

ALEXIS GOLDEN: birth trauma and PTSD; and postpartum

ALEXIS GOLDEN: psychosis.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Perinatal mental health difficulties have

ALEXIS GOLDEN: the potential to have a big impact on

ALEXIS GOLDEN: parents and their babies.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Persistent problems during the antenatal

ALEXIS GOLDEN: period can affect the baby's development.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: And after birth, if parents aren't getting

ALEXIS GOLDEN: the support they need, this can affect

ALEXIS GOLDEN: their ability to provide responsive care

ALEXIS GOLDEN: for their children.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: It's estimated that over 25% of new

ALEXIS GOLDEN: and expectant mothers are affected by some

ALEXIS GOLDEN: form of perinatal mental health difficulty,

ALEXIS GOLDEN: and Black mothers are disproportionately

ALEXIS GOLDEN: affected.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: 13% more Black mothers experience

ALEXIS GOLDEN: postpartum depression than any other group.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Furthermore, one in five Black mothers

ALEXIS GOLDEN: reported they did not visit healthcare

ALEXIS GOLDEN: professionals when they were experiencing

ALEXIS GOLDEN: low mood. In this episode of the podcast,

ALEXIS GOLDEN: recorded in January 2025, we're going to

ALEXIS GOLDEN: look at why this is the case, what the

ALEXIS GOLDEN: effect is on babies and young children, and

ALEXIS GOLDEN: how healthcare professionals can do better

ALEXIS GOLDEN: to support Black mothers with their mental

ALEXIS GOLDEN: health. I'm joined by two guests, Chi and

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Sandra.

SANDRA IGWE: Hi everybody, I am Sandra Igwe

SANDRA IGWE: and I am the founder and the chief exec at

SANDRA IGWE: The Motherhood Group.

SANDRA IGWE: The Motherhood Group is a grassroots

SANDRA IGWE: organisation and social enterprise that

SANDRA IGWE: really supports the black maternal experience

SANDRA IGWE: through a number of way: peer-to-peer

SANDRA IGWE: support, national campaigns, training,

SANDRA IGWE: advocacy and research.

SANDRA IGWE: It's great to be here with you.

CHI MUMBI: Hello, I'm Chi, I'm a children's services

CHI MUMBI: practitioner which is a social worker

CHI MUMBI: role for the NSPCC, and I work in the London

CHI MUMBI: and South East England team.

CHI MUMBI: I help deliver Pregnancy in Mind, Letting

CHI MUMBI: the Future In, which is our sexual abuse

CHI MUMBI: recovery service, and Domestic Abuse Recovery

CHI MUMBI: Together, which is our domestic abuse recovery

CHI MUMBI: service.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Thank you both so much for being here with

ALEXIS GOLDEN: us today. We're going to start with the

ALEXIS GOLDEN: first question, which is: what is

ALEXIS GOLDEN: perinatal mental health and why is it

ALEXIS GOLDEN: important?

SANDRA IGWE: From my experience working with and for Black

SANDRA IGWE: mothers and Black women, perinatal mental

SANDRA IGWE: health really refers to a mother's emotional

SANDRA IGWE: and psychological wellbeing during her

SANDRA IGWE: pregnancy and within the first year

SANDRA IGWE: after birth. It's really, really important

SANDRA IGWE: because this period really involves a

SANDRA IGWE: significant amount of physical,

SANDRA IGWE: hormonal and life changes as a whole, and it

SANDRA IGWE: can really impact any person, especially

SANDRA IGWE: mothers' mental health during this period.

SANDRA IGWE: But good perinatal mental health is really

SANDRA IGWE: important and essential for both the mother

SANDRA IGWE: and also her baby's development, when

SANDRA IGWE: it comes to bonding and looking at the

SANDRA IGWE: overall long term wellbeing of the family.

CHI MUMBI: Just to add on to what Sandra said, perinatal

CHI MUMBI: health and infant mental health is obviously

CHI MUMBI: very interlinked towards each other as well.

CHI MUMBI: So it's hard to separate perinatal mental

CHI MUMBI: health and infant mental health, because good

CHI MUMBI: positive mental health for the mother means

CHI MUMBI: good positive mental health for infant as well.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Just from both your practice perspectives,

ALEXIS GOLDEN: how can perinatal mental health issues

ALEXIS GOLDEN: affect babies and children, short term

ALEXIS GOLDEN: or long term?

CHI MUMBI: If mothers are experiencing high levels of

CHI MUMBI: anxiety and depression, very often during

CHI MUMBI: pregnancy there's a spike of stress hormones,

CHI MUMBI: which means that there's more cortisol that is

CHI MUMBI: being, kind of, let out — and we do tend to

CHI MUMBI: think of cortisol as being the stress hormone,

CHI MUMBI: but that's actually not true.

CHI MUMBI: It's actually an anti-stress hormone, but it

CHI MUMBI: does mean the release of cortisol is often

CHI MUMBI: linked with babies having developmental

CHI MUMBI: difficulties and there is an impact on infant

CHI MUMBI: mental health. But also there are societal

CHI MUMBI: difficulties, not just in terms of just

CHI MUMBI: thinking about mental health as something that

CHI MUMBI: just exists inside the mind.

CHI MUMBI: If there's any trauma, any kind of abuse going

CHI MUMBI: on, that is obviously going to impact the baby

CHI MUMBI: as well. So it's really important, of course,

CHI MUMBI: for mothers to have a really positive mental

CHI MUMBI: health experience during their pregnancy

CHI MUMBI: because it is linked to better outcomes for

CHI MUMBI: infants and children as a whole.

SANDRA IGWE: Just to piggyback off what Chi just said,

SANDRA IGWE: it can really affect the baby and

SANDRA IGWE: the children in so many different ways.

SANDRA IGWE: It can even just affect the mother's ability

SANDRA IGWE: of bonding. I've seen so many mothers in our

SANDRA IGWE: organisation that come in that have struggled

SANDRA IGWE: to bond with their baby or respond to their

SANDRA IGWE: baby when they're struggling with their

SANDRA IGWE: mental health. And this can really impact the

SANDRA IGWE: baby's emotional development, how they grow

SANDRA IGWE: up, how they form attachments; and as you

SANDRA IGWE: mentioned, stress response systems as well

SANDRA IGWE: that can really impact a baby when their

SANDRA IGWE: mothers go through depression [and] anxiety.

SANDRA IGWE: But also research shows that when mother's

SANDRA IGWE: mental health goes untreated or the issues

SANDRA IGWE: are left to the wayside, it can really

SANDRA IGWE: influence children's emotional regulation,

SANDRA IGWE: their behaviour as an overall sort of

SANDRA IGWE: standing point, but also their cognitive

SANDRA IGWE: brain development as well, long term as

SANDRA IGWE: well.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Thank you both.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Moving on to the second question, why

ALEXIS GOLDEN: are Black mothers more likely to experience

ALEXIS GOLDEN: perinatal mental health issues, including

ALEXIS GOLDEN: postnatal depression?

SANDRA IGWE: I mean, I'm happy to answer that question.

SANDRA IGWE: We can really be here all day if I share

SANDRA IGWE: all that we've heard and learned through our

SANDRA IGWE: own research over the last eight [or] nine

SANDRA IGWE: years of running The Motherhood Group.

SANDRA IGWE: But just to simplify, the, I guess,

SANDRA IGWE: core main reason is when we experience higher

SANDRA IGWE: rates of racism within health care settings,

SANDRA IGWE: that naturally will impact the way we

SANDRA IGWE: receive care, want to receive care, or

SANDRA IGWE: also when it comes to accessing culturally

SANDRA IGWE: appropriate care; it really impacts that.

SANDRA IGWE: Also, when you've had previous traumatic

SANDRA IGWE: experiences, you know, we're more likely to

SANDRA IGWE: have higher maternal mortality rates, i.e.

SANDRA IGWE: we're likely to be unalived in pregnancy or

SANDRA IGWE: maternity care settings, as well as our

SANDRA IGWE: babies having a higher increase of neonatal

SANDRA IGWE: death, miscarriages, stillbirth.

SANDRA IGWE: We're more like to have hypertension,

SANDRA IGWE: emergency C-sections. All of this, all of

SANDRA IGWE: these numbers that I've just shared, all this

SANDRA IGWE: data will obviously impact a mother's

SANDRA IGWE: rate of postnatal depression.

SANDRA IGWE: But also just the cumulative impact of all

SANDRA IGWE: of this; knowing that you're more likely to

SANDRA IGWE: have horrible outcomes in maternity care,

SANDRA IGWE: knowing that you face, sadly, discrimination,

SANDRA IGWE: whether it's covert discrimination or overt

SANDRA IGWE: or, you know, preassumptions, misconceptions,

SANDRA IGWE: preconceptions. All of this will make you

SANDRA IGWE: have a higher level of mental health

SANDRA IGWE: challenges but also make you not want to have

SANDRA IGWE: treatment because you don't have that trust

SANDRA IGWE: in the healthcare system and also won't

SANDRA IGWE: have access for many reasons such as

SANDRA IGWE: socio-economical pressures as well as

SANDRA IGWE: concerns not being taken seriously by

SANDRA IGWE: healthcare providers as we've seen time and

SANDRA IGWE: time again.

CHI MUMBI: Absolutely what Sandra said.

CHI MUMBI: I think that when you are racialised in the way

CHI MUMBI: that Black women are, which in a very specific

CHI MUMBI: way can often be sexualisation, but very

CHI MUMBI: often health professionals have historically

CHI MUMBI: thought that Black woman can withstand pain

CHI MUMBI: more compared to other women, which is

CHI MUMBI: obviously not true. But because of that idea,

CHI MUMBI: it's meant that when Black women are

CHI MUMBI: experiencing pain giving birth or anything

CHI MUMBI: related to any symptoms they may be having

CHI MUMBI: during their pregnancy, that's often ignored.

CHI MUMBI: There's also, if you are racialised, there is a

CHI MUMBI: sense of becoming disconnected from your body,

CHI MUMBI: and, of course, being pregnant is a very

CHI MUMBI: embodied experience. It's very hard to run away

CHI MUMBI: from all the sensations, the feelings,

CHI MUMBI: everything. And because of that kind of

CHI MUMBI: disconnection, you could end up not wanting to

CHI MUMBI: go and get support because you're just in

CHI MUMBI: survival mode all the time.

CHI MUMBI: And it's very to connect to your baby if you're

CHI MUMBI: in survival mode.

CHI MUMBI: So I think these things can lead to increased

CHI MUMBI: mental health problems which, yeah, there's a

CHI MUMBI: very specific way of being racialised in this

CHI MUMBI: country as a black woman.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: I think this topic dovetails nicely into

ALEXIS GOLDEN: the next question, which is about The

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Motherhood Group.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: What role does The Motherhood Group play in

ALEXIS GOLDEN: supporting the black maternal experience?

SANDRA IGWE: Yeah, so we see ourselves as a bridge.

SANDRA IGWE: A bridge between the community of Black

SANDRA IGWE: mothers and pregnant women, and then the

SANDRA IGWE: wider system: healthcare practitioners,

SANDRA IGWE: maternity services, policy advisors,

SANDRA IGWE: and just wider stakeholders as a whole.

SANDRA IGWE: And the reason why we see ourselves as bridges

SANDRA IGWE: is because for many years, as I mentioned

SANDRA IGWE: earlier, there has been a breakdown of trust

SANDRA IGWE: between the community and the system as a

SANDRA IGWE: whole. So we see ourselves as ways of

SANDRA IGWE: rebuilding that trust and also ways

SANDRA IGWE: that mothers— ports that mothers can get, you

SANDRA IGWE: know, culturally-specific support.

SANDRA IGWE: We provide safe spaces where Black mothers

SANDRA IGWE: can really share their experiences, share

SANDRA IGWE: resources and ways of accessing information.

SANDRA IGWE: We do this through our Black Maternal Health

SANDRA IGWE: Conference, our annual conference that allows

SANDRA IGWE: Black mothers to finally have a platform to

SANDRA IGWE: speak about all of the intricate details that

SANDRA IGWE: matter to us in our maternity care, in our

SANDRA IGWE: motherhood experience and in our pregnancy as

SANDRA IGWE: well. We have our peer-to-peer support and we

SANDRA IGWE: have our newly launched Black Mums app now,

SANDRA IGWE: that uses AI to connect Black mothers

SANDRA IGWE: with similar lived experiences so that you

SANDRA IGWE: don't have to face this journey alone.

SANDRA IGWE: You know that isolation can contribute

SANDRA IGWE: negatively to mental health experiences

SANDRA IGWE: as a whole.

SANDRA IGWE: So we help bridge gaps in traditional health

SANDRA IGWE: care services by providing this sort of

SANDRA IGWE: tailored, informed peer support, as well as

SANDRA IGWE: our training that equips health care staff to

SANDRA IGWE: really support us and acknowledge the unique

SANDRA IGWE: challenges that Black mothers face.

CHI MUMBI: Why did you start up The Motherhood Group?

CHI MUMBI: Why did you think it was important?

CHI MUMBI: I mean, obviously it's important, but I'm just

CHI MUMBI: interested in the why.

SANDRA IGWE: Yes, no, thank you for that question, Chi.

SANDRA IGWE: Do you know what? It came out of lived

SANDRA IGWE: experience. So eight and a half years ago,

SANDRA IGWE: when I was pregnant with my first daughter, I

SANDRA IGWE: saw that there was a massive gap in the

SANDRA IGWE: system and I was quite frustrated because I

SANDRA IGWE: didn't feel like a lot of my concerns were

SANDRA IGWE: spoken about as a Black British-born mother,

SANDRA IGWE: first time mother. And so I would Google 'Black

SANDRA IGWE: mum support group' and nothing would pop up

SANDRA IGWE: on Google, only things maybe in America.

SANDRA IGWE: And so, I thought, "okay, why can't I see

SANDRA IGWE: any prominent safe spaces for Black mothers?"

SANDRA IGWE: Just because when I did go to some of these

SANDRA IGWE: classes or programmes or mummy and baby

SANDRA IGWE: groups, I was always the only Black mother in

SANDRA IGWE: the space. For many people that might be

SANDRA IGWE: okay, but actually that exasperated my

SANDRA IGWE: undiagnosed postnatal depression.

SANDRA IGWE: I definitely did not go and get any

SANDRA IGWE: traditional clinical support for that

SANDRA IGWE: because, like I mentioned, I had, you know, a

SANDRA IGWE: breakdown in trust where my healthcare

SANDRA IGWE: practitioner treated me differently because

SANDRA IGWE: of the colour of my skin and at the time I

SANDRA IGWE: didn't know the data surrounding Black women.

SANDRA IGWE: I just knew that I was treated differently

SANDRA IGWE: and I had substandard care in my

SANDRA IGWE: birthing experience. I was sent home five

SANDRA IGWE: times. I was told that I was exaggerating my

SANDRA IGWE: pain. I didn't get pain relief after begging

SANDRA IGWE: and pleading for hours.

SANDRA IGWE: My daughter passed a meconium stool on the

SANDRA IGWE: way out. She is fine now, but the trust

SANDRA IGWE: admitted to a breach of duty.

SANDRA IGWE: All of these experiences, using my

SANDRA IGWE: legal background, I really wanted to stand

SANDRA IGWE: for change; but also seeing that there were

SANDRA IGWE: so many mums that looked like me, who were

SANDRA IGWE: speaking about the exact same thing, so this

SANDRA IGWE: couldn't just be a coincidence.

SANDRA IGWE: There obviously was a critical issue that

SANDRA IGWE: wasn't really being addressed in the

SANDRA IGWE: mainstream to my knowledge at the time.

SANDRA IGWE: So that's the reason why I started it.

CHI MUMBI: Thank you so much for sharing that.

CHI MUMBI: I mean, it sounds like such a difficult

CHI MUMBI: experience, I can't imagine.

CHI MUMBI: And it must be kind of quite easy — you

CHI MUMBI: know, I don't look down at people at all for

CHI MUMBI: doing this — but it might be quite easy after

CHI MUMBI: those experiences just to not talk about it.

CHI MUMBI: You know, just think "this is just something

CHI MUMBI: that happens. I want to move on. I want to

CHI MUMBI: experience my new baby and move on with life."

CHI MUMBI: But then to use quite a traumatic experience,

CHI MUMBI: it sounds like, to then create a group and then

CHI MUMBI: also help other women who have had those

CHI MUMBI: experiences and also hopefully prevent other

CHI MUMBI: Black women having to go through those traumas.

CHI MUMBI: I think, yeah, that's such an amazing thing.

CHI MUMBI: So thank you.

SANDRA IGWE: Thank you so much for acknowledging that,

SANDRA IGWE: thank you.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: The work that The Motherhood Group does is

ALEXIS GOLDEN: fantastic and we did have a chance to

ALEXIS GOLDEN: attend your conference last year and it was

ALEXIS GOLDEN: really great to hear just the sharing of

ALEXIS GOLDEN: awareness, the spreading of knowledge and

ALEXIS GOLDEN: information, and just having a shared space

ALEXIS GOLDEN: with Black mums — so, yeah, The Motherhood

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Group is wonderful. We're really glad to be

ALEXIS GOLDEN: in partnership together.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: So we've talked about the stats, we've

ALEXIS GOLDEN: talked about the research; but what can

ALEXIS GOLDEN: professionals do, working with expectant

ALEXIS GOLDEN: parents, to support perinatal mental

ALEXIS GOLDEN: health issues?

SANDRA IGWE: Yeah, I think just one thing I would say:

SANDRA IGWE: professionals should really prioritise

SANDRA IGWE: understanding, listening to the concerns and

SANDRA IGWE: recognise that there are biases in care.

SANDRA IGWE: Maybe five, six, seven years ago, this wasn't

SANDRA IGWE: really a thing to openly discuss

SANDRA IGWE: the role that race... how it plays a part in

SANDRA IGWE: maternal experiences, perinatal mental health

SANDRA IGWE: experiences. And so just acknowledging that

SANDRA IGWE: it exists, but also taking the proactive

SANDRA IGWE: steps in putting yourself in training.

SANDRA IGWE: There's so many. We deliver cultural

SANDRA IGWE: competency training. And then making sure

SANDRA IGWE: that you provide a judgement-free environment

SANDRA IGWE: for Black mothers to really share their

SANDRA IGWE: experiences.

CHI MUMBI: Absolutely and I think not having a

CHI MUMBI: one-size-fits-all approach to perinatal

CHI MUMBI: care is really important.

CHI MUMBI: Definitely more awareness around those outdated

CHI MUMBI: stereotypical beliefs about Black women, pain,

CHI MUMBI: what we can tolerate. And ensuring that

CHI MUMBI: there's, kind of, a presence inside

CHI MUMBI: perinatal services so that Black women, and

CHI MUMBI: other women from different ethnic minority

CHI MUMBI: groups, can like they're supported, feel like

CHI MUMBI: there's a space they can go to.

CHI MUMBI: I know that in some hospitals they have now

CHI MUMBI: started doing antenatal classes that are only

CHI MUMBI: for Black and mixed race mums, which I think is

CHI MUMBI: a really positive step, but also for those,

CHI MUMBI: it's a bit of a postcode lottery. So for those

CHI MUMBI: mums who are in perhaps majority white areas,

CHI MUMBI: it is really important even in those spaces to

CHI MUMBI: make sure that professionals keep it a safe

CHI MUMBI: space, have those difficult conversations at

CHI MUMBI: time, and really make expectant mothers and

CHI MUMBI: partners feel like it's a safe space for them

CHI MUMBI: and they're safe to give birth.

CHI MUMBI: It's a really stressful time.

CHI MUMBI: I think that's definitely number one.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Thinking about Pregnancy in Mind (PiM) in

ALEXIS GOLDEN: particular — Chi, how do you think

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Pregnancy in Mind can help new mothers, or

ALEXIS GOLDEN: just new parents in general?

CHI MUMBI: Yeah, I think it helps that it isn't a

CHI MUMBI: one-size-fits-all kind of approach and it isn't

CHI MUMBI: manualised. So we really do look at

CHI MUMBI: the group of women that we have and who are

CHI MUMBI: working one-to-one and think "what will help

CHI MUMBI: this group of women in particular?" And we do

CHI MUMBI: focus as well on neurodivergence now, but also

CHI MUMBI: how are we going to adjust the content to be as

CHI MUMBI: inclusive as possible to all expectant parents.

CHI MUMBI: I think it's also unique in that we do include

CHI MUMBI: partners; other perinatal mental

CHI MUMBI: health services don't always do that, but it's

CHI MUMBI: helpful to have a holistic idea of the family

CHI MUMBI: but also to show how important partners are

CHI MUMBI: for expectant mums.

CHI MUMBI: And if they don't have that support identifying

CHI MUMBI: what support they can have, so we can also

CHI MUMBI: include who we call 'supporters', who could be

CHI MUMBI: expectant parents' grandmothers or sisters or

CHI MUMBI: friends that can come on on the group, because

CHI MUMBI: it's really all about community.

CHI MUMBI: There is of course lots of conversations

CHI MUMBI: around the loneliness epidemic that affect all

CHI MUMBI: different groups of people across the UK, but

CHI MUMBI: in particular, being a lonely mother is

CHI MUMBI: extremely difficult.

CHI MUMBI: It takes a village to raise a child and that's

CHI MUMBI: absolutely true. Having different sources of

CHI MUMBI: support, both professional, but also personal,

CHI MUMBI: is really important for mothers.

CHI MUMBI: And I think PiM helps provide that space so

CHI MUMBI: they feel that "actually, we're not alone." We

CHI MUMBI: had this really wonderful moment in one of the

CHI MUMBI: PiM groups where they all each quite naturally

CHI MUMBI: opened up saying that they had had experiences

CHI MUMBI: of anxiety and depression.

CHI MUMBI: I spoke to one of the mums afterwards and she

CHI MUMBI: was talking about how the taboo was kind of

CHI MUMBI: over and she felt like, "oh, I'm not alone

CHI MUMBI: actually. What I'm feeling isn't strange.

CHI MUMBI: It isn't— it doesn't make me a terrible mum.

CHI MUMBI: It's just actually something that I'm

CHI MUMBI: experiencing, I'm getting support with, and

CHI MUMBI: yeah, I'm not the only person in the world

CHI MUMBI: [experiencing this]." Which I think in the age

CHI MUMBI: of social media, which is helpful in so many

CHI MUMBI: ways, but I can imagine as an expectant parent

CHI MUMBI: looking at all these seemingly perfect images

CHI MUMBI: and videos of ideal motherhood can

CHI MUMBI: be really, really difficult.

CHI MUMBI: So yeah, I think we try to keep it an open,

CHI MUMBI: inclusive space for everyone and really try to

CHI MUMBI: think about people's individual experiences,

CHI MUMBI: adverse experiences, as well as empowering

CHI MUMBI: parents to feel like they can do this and

CHI MUMBI: they're an expert on their body and their

CHI MUMBI: babies; which I think is especially important

CHI MUMBI: when working with Black women, because I think

CHI MUMBI: that... there can be that idea of

CHI MUMBI: not being an expert in your own body and not

CHI MUMBI: taking ownership of your own body, which we try

CHI MUMBI: to promote as much as possible in PiM.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Chi, what are the next steps for Pregnancy

ALEXIS GOLDEN: in Mind as a service across the UK?

CHI MUMBI: Yes, so we're expanding.

CHI MUMBI: So we're currently active in West Sussex [and]

CHI MUMBI: Slough, and the hope is that we're going to

CHI MUMBI: expand into two London boroughs as

CHI MUMBI: well. So our reach is extending.

CHI MUMBI: But also the NSPCC has scale-up, where we

CHI MUMBI: will sell programmes — so programmes like

CHI MUMBI: DART (Domestic Abuse, Recovering Together) for example, but now

CHI MUMBI: it'll be PiM (Pregnancy in Mind) — and that

CHI MUMBI: will mean that PiM can go to different

CHI MUMBI: organisations, different places all over the

CHI MUMBI: country, so it won't just be concentrated

CHI MUMBI: inside our area in London and the Southeast,

CHI MUMBI: which is really exciting as well to see how

CHI MUMBI: it's gonna blossom and develop.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Is Pregnancy in Mind being delivered across

ALEXIS GOLDEN: the NSPCC in other areas as well?

CHI MUMBI: So yeah, PiM is currently being delivered in

CHI MUMBI: several different areas.

CHI MUMBI: But if you look on the NSPCC website for

CHI MUMBI: Pregnancy in Mind, you can check to see if it's

CHI MUMBI: being delivered anywhere near you.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: We'll be sure to leave a link underneath

ALEXIS GOLDEN: the podcast so that you can see where we're

ALEXIS GOLDEN: being delivered right now.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Sandra, what are the interesting projects

ALEXIS GOLDEN: coming up for The Motherhood Group in 2025

ALEXIS GOLDEN: and beyond?

SANDRA IGWE: Yeah, so we have quite a few.

SANDRA IGWE: We have, as I mentioned, our launch of our

SANDRA IGWE: new digital app called Black Mums.

SANDRA IGWE: The title literally is what it says it is.

SANDRA IGWE: It's a safe space for Black mums to connect

SANDRA IGWE: virtually. We often have a lot of these

SANDRA IGWE: wonderful platforms — you know, like Peanut,

SANDRA IGWE: Netmums, Bounty — these are wonderful online

SANDRA IGWE: digital spaces that connects mums, but none

SANDRA IGWE: of it really addresses the unique needs

SANDRA IGWE: that Black women face.

SANDRA IGWE: And so we've created our own version of that,

SANDRA IGWE: where we can speak about all the challenges

SANDRA IGWE: that matter to us, but also connect us with

SANDRA IGWE: like-minded mums locally and nearby.

SANDRA IGWE: We also have the launch of our Black Maternal

SANDRA IGWE: Mental Health Project in collaboration with

SANDRA IGWE: Maternal Mental Health Alliance and Centre

SANDRA IGWE: for Mental Health.

SANDRA IGWE: And so looking at the last eight years

SANDRA IGWE: of our engagement, what are the common themes

SANDRA IGWE: that are important or crucial or essential to

SANDRA IGWE: make the mental health of Black mothers

SANDRA IGWE: thrive. What does good spaces look like?

SANDRA IGWE: What does good communication look like?

SANDRA IGWE: So we'll be launching that at our Black

SANDRA IGWE: maternal health conference in March.

SANDRA IGWE: And then of course, September, our annual

SANDRA IGWE: Black Maternal Mental Health Week, which Chi

SANDRA IGWE: spoke at last year — she was fantastic.

SANDRA IGWE: And we look at common themes relating to,

SANDRA IGWE: you know, helping to bridge the gap, but also

SANDRA IGWE: looking at some of the barriers that Black

SANDRA IGWE: mother's face in mental health or maternal

SANDRA IGWE: mental health but sometimes also wonderful

SANDRA IGWE: solutions and recommendations for

SANDRA IGWE: improvement; such as the role that stigma

SANDRA IGWE: plays, how to connect with grassroots

SANDRA IGWE: community-led organisations, the

SANDRA IGWE: role that, you know, faith and religion, how

SANDRA IGWE: that can be a bridge, but also a barrier in

SANDRA IGWE: seeking support. So please do get involved in

SANDRA IGWE: our daily webinars during that week as well.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Sounds like there's a lot of things coming

ALEXIS GOLDEN: up.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: I've run out of questions, but I'm just

ALEXIS GOLDEN: coming up with this one off the cuff.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: If either of you had to give three big

ALEXIS GOLDEN: takeaways to our listeners today, what

ALEXIS GOLDEN: would they be?

SANDRA IGWE: I'd say one: if you are a professional

SANDRA IGWE: working with expectant parents that

SANDRA IGWE: are from Black or Brown communities, really,

SANDRA IGWE: as I mentioned, listen; it sounds so simple,

SANDRA IGWE: but it's very, very rarely done quite well.

SANDRA IGWE: So actively listen to all the concerns, but

SANDRA IGWE: also recognise again that some of these

SANDRA IGWE: barriers that might not be relevant to you,

SANDRA IGWE: they are really important for a mother that

SANDRA IGWE: wants to receive good quality, adequate

SANDRA IGWE: care. Then make a mother feel safe.

SANDRA IGWE: So provide safe spaces, bring on diverse

SANDRA IGWE: staff to support them, make sure that you're

SANDRA IGWE: able to offer support or care that helps

SANDRA IGWE: to bridge the traditional health services

SANDRA IGWE: by providing those relevant

SANDRA IGWE: support networks and culturally relevant

SANDRA IGWE: resources so that a mother can receive that

SANDRA IGWE: as well.

SANDRA IGWE: And then finally, three: recognise

SANDRA IGWE: that not everybody has the right language to

SANDRA IGWE: articulate that they are struggling with

SANDRA IGWE: perinatal mental health issues.

SANDRA IGWE: In some languages and some cultures, there is

SANDRA IGWE: no word for perinatal mental health or

SANDRA IGWE: postpartum depression.

SANDRA IGWE: And so being open to exploring what that

SANDRA IGWE: might look like for each community and what

SANDRA IGWE: might be the better word.

SANDRA IGWE: Is it wellbeing? Is it care?

SANDRA IGWE: How do you feel?

SANDRA IGWE: Just make sure that you are looking at that

SANDRA IGWE: person as an individual and not seeing them

SANDRA IGWE: as a monolithic group.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Wonderful, thank you so much, Sandra.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Chi, anything to add?

CHI MUMBI: I absolutely agree with Sandra.

CHI MUMBI: I would say that number one for professionals

CHI MUMBI: for me would be to be curious and to continue

CHI MUMBI: to be curious about expectant mothers'

CHI MUMBI: experiences, and really

CHI MUMBI: taking a non-judgmental stance.

CHI MUMBI: So when you're hearing a woman

CHI MUMBI: talk about her difficulties, or you feel like

CHI MUMBI: something else is going on, instead of becoming

CHI MUMBI: judgmental, really trying to unpick that with

CHI MUMBI: her in a caring, thoughtful way that

CHI MUMBI: will not make her turn away and make her feel

CHI MUMBI: like, "I'm feeling judged, I need to leave",

CHI MUMBI: and not actually being able to get that support

CHI MUMBI: later on. I would say number two is recognise

CHI MUMBI: the importance of community.

CHI MUMBI: I mean as Sandra was talking about The

CHI MUMBI: Motherhood Group, I mean it's so amazing — the

CHI MUMBI: power of community and having other people

CHI MUMBI: around you who maybe won't have exactly the

CHI MUMBI: same experiences as you but will understand and

CHI MUMBI: can listen to you and can help care for you.

CHI MUMBI: I think recognising the importance of

CHI MUMBI: community, and as a professional asking

CHI MUMBI: parents, "okay, what support do you have?" And

CHI MUMBI: if they don't have any support and they're

CHI MUMBI: lonely, what support can we provide or can we

CHI MUMBI: help you with? And I do understand the

CHI MUMBI: pressures on NHS staff and all

CHI MUMBI: over the caring sector, but I think

CHI MUMBI: it is really important to recognise and to

CHI MUMBI: identify lonely mums and ways that you

CHI MUMBI: can support them. And I would say third: to

CHI MUMBI: not lose sight of the mental health of the

CHI MUMBI: infant as well.

CHI MUMBI: I know the concept of...

CHI MUMBI: To me anyway, the concept of pregnancy is quite

CHI MUMBI: abstract and when we're working with

CHI MUMBI: participants, we do a lot of connecting to your

CHI MUMBI: baby exercises.

CHI MUMBI: And for some parents, it's the first time they

CHI MUMBI: really thought about questions like, "what

CHI MUMBI: music do you think your baby would like?" Or

CHI MUMBI: "what food you think you baby would enjoy?" And

CHI MUMBI: they are quite abstract questions but it does

CHI MUMBI: help you connect more with your baby.

CHI MUMBI: The purpose of those connecting to you baby

CHI MUMBI: exercises is so that we're thinking about the

CHI MUMBI: baby and bringing the baby into the room, but

CHI MUMBI: also thinking about the potential mental health

CHI MUMBI: of the baby and linking the mental health of

CHI MUMBI: the parents to their child as well.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Wonderful. Well, thank you both for those

ALEXIS GOLDEN: key takeaways. I think you've given our

ALEXIS GOLDEN: listeners a lot to take in.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: I'll close here, but I just wanted to say a

ALEXIS GOLDEN: big thank you to both Chi and Sandra for

ALEXIS GOLDEN: your time today and for sharing your

ALEXIS GOLDEN: experiences. We have a lot of information

ALEXIS GOLDEN: to share with our audience.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: If you want to learn more about Pregnancy

ALEXIS GOLDEN: in Mind or The Motherhood Group, we will be

ALEXIS GOLDEN: sure to put those in our podcast notes.

ALEXIS GOLDEN: Chi and Sandra, thank you so much for your

ALEXIS GOLDEN: time.

CHI MUMBI: Thank you so much.

SANDRA IGWE: Thank you for having us. Thank You.

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning

OUTRO: Podcast.

OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content

OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and

OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing.

OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current

OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,

OUTRO: information or resources,

OUTRO: please visit our website for professionals at

OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.