INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where
INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection
INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and
INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together
INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: I'm Alexis Golden, and I'm a project
ALEXIS GOLDEN: development manager at the NSPCC.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: I'm leading the development of our
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Pregnancy in Mind service.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Pregnancy in Mind is a preventative service
ALEXIS GOLDEN: designed to support parents who are at risk
ALEXIS GOLDEN: of, or experiencing, perinatal mental
ALEXIS GOLDEN: health difficulties.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: NHS England defines perinatal mental health
ALEXIS GOLDEN: problems as "problems which occurred during
ALEXIS GOLDEN: pregnancy or in the first year following
ALEXIS GOLDEN: the birth of a child".
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Examples include postnatal and antenatal
ALEXIS GOLDEN: depression; anxiety; OCD;
ALEXIS GOLDEN: birth trauma and PTSD; and postpartum
ALEXIS GOLDEN: psychosis.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Perinatal mental health difficulties have
ALEXIS GOLDEN: the potential to have a big impact on
ALEXIS GOLDEN: parents and their babies.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Persistent problems during the antenatal
ALEXIS GOLDEN: period can affect the baby's development.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: And after birth, if parents aren't getting
ALEXIS GOLDEN: the support they need, this can affect
ALEXIS GOLDEN: their ability to provide responsive care
ALEXIS GOLDEN: for their children.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: It's estimated that over 25% of new
ALEXIS GOLDEN: and expectant mothers are affected by some
ALEXIS GOLDEN: form of perinatal mental health difficulty,
ALEXIS GOLDEN: and Black mothers are disproportionately
ALEXIS GOLDEN: affected.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: 13% more Black mothers experience
ALEXIS GOLDEN: postpartum depression than any other group.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Furthermore, one in five Black mothers
ALEXIS GOLDEN: reported they did not visit healthcare
ALEXIS GOLDEN: professionals when they were experiencing
ALEXIS GOLDEN: low mood. In this episode of the podcast,
ALEXIS GOLDEN: recorded in January 2025, we're going to
ALEXIS GOLDEN: look at why this is the case, what the
ALEXIS GOLDEN: effect is on babies and young children, and
ALEXIS GOLDEN: how healthcare professionals can do better
ALEXIS GOLDEN: to support Black mothers with their mental
ALEXIS GOLDEN: health. I'm joined by two guests, Chi and
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Sandra.
SANDRA IGWE: Hi everybody, I am Sandra Igwe
SANDRA IGWE: and I am the founder and the chief exec at
SANDRA IGWE: The Motherhood Group.
SANDRA IGWE: The Motherhood Group is a grassroots
SANDRA IGWE: organisation and social enterprise that
SANDRA IGWE: really supports the black maternal experience
SANDRA IGWE: through a number of way: peer-to-peer
SANDRA IGWE: support, national campaigns, training,
SANDRA IGWE: advocacy and research.
SANDRA IGWE: It's great to be here with you.
CHI MUMBI: Hello, I'm Chi, I'm a children's services
CHI MUMBI: practitioner which is a social worker
CHI MUMBI: role for the NSPCC, and I work in the London
CHI MUMBI: and South East England team.
CHI MUMBI: I help deliver Pregnancy in Mind, Letting
CHI MUMBI: the Future In, which is our sexual abuse
CHI MUMBI: recovery service, and Domestic Abuse Recovery
CHI MUMBI: Together, which is our domestic abuse recovery
CHI MUMBI: service.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Thank you both so much for being here with
ALEXIS GOLDEN: us today. We're going to start with the
ALEXIS GOLDEN: first question, which is: what is
ALEXIS GOLDEN: perinatal mental health and why is it
ALEXIS GOLDEN: important?
SANDRA IGWE: From my experience working with and for Black
SANDRA IGWE: mothers and Black women, perinatal mental
SANDRA IGWE: health really refers to a mother's emotional
SANDRA IGWE: and psychological wellbeing during her
SANDRA IGWE: pregnancy and within the first year
SANDRA IGWE: after birth. It's really, really important
SANDRA IGWE: because this period really involves a
SANDRA IGWE: significant amount of physical,
SANDRA IGWE: hormonal and life changes as a whole, and it
SANDRA IGWE: can really impact any person, especially
SANDRA IGWE: mothers' mental health during this period.
SANDRA IGWE: But good perinatal mental health is really
SANDRA IGWE: important and essential for both the mother
SANDRA IGWE: and also her baby's development, when
SANDRA IGWE: it comes to bonding and looking at the
SANDRA IGWE: overall long term wellbeing of the family.
CHI MUMBI: Just to add on to what Sandra said, perinatal
CHI MUMBI: health and infant mental health is obviously
CHI MUMBI: very interlinked towards each other as well.
CHI MUMBI: So it's hard to separate perinatal mental
CHI MUMBI: health and infant mental health, because good
CHI MUMBI: positive mental health for the mother means
CHI MUMBI: good positive mental health for infant as well.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Just from both your practice perspectives,
ALEXIS GOLDEN: how can perinatal mental health issues
ALEXIS GOLDEN: affect babies and children, short term
ALEXIS GOLDEN: or long term?
CHI MUMBI: If mothers are experiencing high levels of
CHI MUMBI: anxiety and depression, very often during
CHI MUMBI: pregnancy there's a spike of stress hormones,
CHI MUMBI: which means that there's more cortisol that is
CHI MUMBI: being, kind of, let out — and we do tend to
CHI MUMBI: think of cortisol as being the stress hormone,
CHI MUMBI: but that's actually not true.
CHI MUMBI: It's actually an anti-stress hormone, but it
CHI MUMBI: does mean the release of cortisol is often
CHI MUMBI: linked with babies having developmental
CHI MUMBI: difficulties and there is an impact on infant
CHI MUMBI: mental health. But also there are societal
CHI MUMBI: difficulties, not just in terms of just
CHI MUMBI: thinking about mental health as something that
CHI MUMBI: just exists inside the mind.
CHI MUMBI: If there's any trauma, any kind of abuse going
CHI MUMBI: on, that is obviously going to impact the baby
CHI MUMBI: as well. So it's really important, of course,
CHI MUMBI: for mothers to have a really positive mental
CHI MUMBI: health experience during their pregnancy
CHI MUMBI: because it is linked to better outcomes for
CHI MUMBI: infants and children as a whole.
SANDRA IGWE: Just to piggyback off what Chi just said,
SANDRA IGWE: it can really affect the baby and
SANDRA IGWE: the children in so many different ways.
SANDRA IGWE: It can even just affect the mother's ability
SANDRA IGWE: of bonding. I've seen so many mothers in our
SANDRA IGWE: organisation that come in that have struggled
SANDRA IGWE: to bond with their baby or respond to their
SANDRA IGWE: baby when they're struggling with their
SANDRA IGWE: mental health. And this can really impact the
SANDRA IGWE: baby's emotional development, how they grow
SANDRA IGWE: up, how they form attachments; and as you
SANDRA IGWE: mentioned, stress response systems as well
SANDRA IGWE: that can really impact a baby when their
SANDRA IGWE: mothers go through depression [and] anxiety.
SANDRA IGWE: But also research shows that when mother's
SANDRA IGWE: mental health goes untreated or the issues
SANDRA IGWE: are left to the wayside, it can really
SANDRA IGWE: influence children's emotional regulation,
SANDRA IGWE: their behaviour as an overall sort of
SANDRA IGWE: standing point, but also their cognitive
SANDRA IGWE: brain development as well, long term as
SANDRA IGWE: well.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Thank you both.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Moving on to the second question, why
ALEXIS GOLDEN: are Black mothers more likely to experience
ALEXIS GOLDEN: perinatal mental health issues, including
ALEXIS GOLDEN: postnatal depression?
SANDRA IGWE: I mean, I'm happy to answer that question.
SANDRA IGWE: We can really be here all day if I share
SANDRA IGWE: all that we've heard and learned through our
SANDRA IGWE: own research over the last eight [or] nine
SANDRA IGWE: years of running The Motherhood Group.
SANDRA IGWE: But just to simplify, the, I guess,
SANDRA IGWE: core main reason is when we experience higher
SANDRA IGWE: rates of racism within health care settings,
SANDRA IGWE: that naturally will impact the way we
SANDRA IGWE: receive care, want to receive care, or
SANDRA IGWE: also when it comes to accessing culturally
SANDRA IGWE: appropriate care; it really impacts that.
SANDRA IGWE: Also, when you've had previous traumatic
SANDRA IGWE: experiences, you know, we're more likely to
SANDRA IGWE: have higher maternal mortality rates, i.e.
SANDRA IGWE: we're likely to be unalived in pregnancy or
SANDRA IGWE: maternity care settings, as well as our
SANDRA IGWE: babies having a higher increase of neonatal
SANDRA IGWE: death, miscarriages, stillbirth.
SANDRA IGWE: We're more like to have hypertension,
SANDRA IGWE: emergency C-sections. All of this, all of
SANDRA IGWE: these numbers that I've just shared, all this
SANDRA IGWE: data will obviously impact a mother's
SANDRA IGWE: rate of postnatal depression.
SANDRA IGWE: But also just the cumulative impact of all
SANDRA IGWE: of this; knowing that you're more likely to
SANDRA IGWE: have horrible outcomes in maternity care,
SANDRA IGWE: knowing that you face, sadly, discrimination,
SANDRA IGWE: whether it's covert discrimination or overt
SANDRA IGWE: or, you know, preassumptions, misconceptions,
SANDRA IGWE: preconceptions. All of this will make you
SANDRA IGWE: have a higher level of mental health
SANDRA IGWE: challenges but also make you not want to have
SANDRA IGWE: treatment because you don't have that trust
SANDRA IGWE: in the healthcare system and also won't
SANDRA IGWE: have access for many reasons such as
SANDRA IGWE: socio-economical pressures as well as
SANDRA IGWE: concerns not being taken seriously by
SANDRA IGWE: healthcare providers as we've seen time and
SANDRA IGWE: time again.
CHI MUMBI: Absolutely what Sandra said.
CHI MUMBI: I think that when you are racialised in the way
CHI MUMBI: that Black women are, which in a very specific
CHI MUMBI: way can often be sexualisation, but very
CHI MUMBI: often health professionals have historically
CHI MUMBI: thought that Black woman can withstand pain
CHI MUMBI: more compared to other women, which is
CHI MUMBI: obviously not true. But because of that idea,
CHI MUMBI: it's meant that when Black women are
CHI MUMBI: experiencing pain giving birth or anything
CHI MUMBI: related to any symptoms they may be having
CHI MUMBI: during their pregnancy, that's often ignored.
CHI MUMBI: There's also, if you are racialised, there is a
CHI MUMBI: sense of becoming disconnected from your body,
CHI MUMBI: and, of course, being pregnant is a very
CHI MUMBI: embodied experience. It's very hard to run away
CHI MUMBI: from all the sensations, the feelings,
CHI MUMBI: everything. And because of that kind of
CHI MUMBI: disconnection, you could end up not wanting to
CHI MUMBI: go and get support because you're just in
CHI MUMBI: survival mode all the time.
CHI MUMBI: And it's very to connect to your baby if you're
CHI MUMBI: in survival mode.
CHI MUMBI: So I think these things can lead to increased
CHI MUMBI: mental health problems which, yeah, there's a
CHI MUMBI: very specific way of being racialised in this
CHI MUMBI: country as a black woman.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: I think this topic dovetails nicely into
ALEXIS GOLDEN: the next question, which is about The
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Motherhood Group.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: What role does The Motherhood Group play in
ALEXIS GOLDEN: supporting the black maternal experience?
SANDRA IGWE: Yeah, so we see ourselves as a bridge.
SANDRA IGWE: A bridge between the community of Black
SANDRA IGWE: mothers and pregnant women, and then the
SANDRA IGWE: wider system: healthcare practitioners,
SANDRA IGWE: maternity services, policy advisors,
SANDRA IGWE: and just wider stakeholders as a whole.
SANDRA IGWE: And the reason why we see ourselves as bridges
SANDRA IGWE: is because for many years, as I mentioned
SANDRA IGWE: earlier, there has been a breakdown of trust
SANDRA IGWE: between the community and the system as a
SANDRA IGWE: whole. So we see ourselves as ways of
SANDRA IGWE: rebuilding that trust and also ways
SANDRA IGWE: that mothers— ports that mothers can get, you
SANDRA IGWE: know, culturally-specific support.
SANDRA IGWE: We provide safe spaces where Black mothers
SANDRA IGWE: can really share their experiences, share
SANDRA IGWE: resources and ways of accessing information.
SANDRA IGWE: We do this through our Black Maternal Health
SANDRA IGWE: Conference, our annual conference that allows
SANDRA IGWE: Black mothers to finally have a platform to
SANDRA IGWE: speak about all of the intricate details that
SANDRA IGWE: matter to us in our maternity care, in our
SANDRA IGWE: motherhood experience and in our pregnancy as
SANDRA IGWE: well. We have our peer-to-peer support and we
SANDRA IGWE: have our newly launched Black Mums app now,
SANDRA IGWE: that uses AI to connect Black mothers
SANDRA IGWE: with similar lived experiences so that you
SANDRA IGWE: don't have to face this journey alone.
SANDRA IGWE: You know that isolation can contribute
SANDRA IGWE: negatively to mental health experiences
SANDRA IGWE: as a whole.
SANDRA IGWE: So we help bridge gaps in traditional health
SANDRA IGWE: care services by providing this sort of
SANDRA IGWE: tailored, informed peer support, as well as
SANDRA IGWE: our training that equips health care staff to
SANDRA IGWE: really support us and acknowledge the unique
SANDRA IGWE: challenges that Black mothers face.
CHI MUMBI: Why did you start up The Motherhood Group?
CHI MUMBI: Why did you think it was important?
CHI MUMBI: I mean, obviously it's important, but I'm just
CHI MUMBI: interested in the why.
SANDRA IGWE: Yes, no, thank you for that question, Chi.
SANDRA IGWE: Do you know what? It came out of lived
SANDRA IGWE: experience. So eight and a half years ago,
SANDRA IGWE: when I was pregnant with my first daughter, I
SANDRA IGWE: saw that there was a massive gap in the
SANDRA IGWE: system and I was quite frustrated because I
SANDRA IGWE: didn't feel like a lot of my concerns were
SANDRA IGWE: spoken about as a Black British-born mother,
SANDRA IGWE: first time mother. And so I would Google 'Black
SANDRA IGWE: mum support group' and nothing would pop up
SANDRA IGWE: on Google, only things maybe in America.
SANDRA IGWE: And so, I thought, "okay, why can't I see
SANDRA IGWE: any prominent safe spaces for Black mothers?"
SANDRA IGWE: Just because when I did go to some of these
SANDRA IGWE: classes or programmes or mummy and baby
SANDRA IGWE: groups, I was always the only Black mother in
SANDRA IGWE: the space. For many people that might be
SANDRA IGWE: okay, but actually that exasperated my
SANDRA IGWE: undiagnosed postnatal depression.
SANDRA IGWE: I definitely did not go and get any
SANDRA IGWE: traditional clinical support for that
SANDRA IGWE: because, like I mentioned, I had, you know, a
SANDRA IGWE: breakdown in trust where my healthcare
SANDRA IGWE: practitioner treated me differently because
SANDRA IGWE: of the colour of my skin and at the time I
SANDRA IGWE: didn't know the data surrounding Black women.
SANDRA IGWE: I just knew that I was treated differently
SANDRA IGWE: and I had substandard care in my
SANDRA IGWE: birthing experience. I was sent home five
SANDRA IGWE: times. I was told that I was exaggerating my
SANDRA IGWE: pain. I didn't get pain relief after begging
SANDRA IGWE: and pleading for hours.
SANDRA IGWE: My daughter passed a meconium stool on the
SANDRA IGWE: way out. She is fine now, but the trust
SANDRA IGWE: admitted to a breach of duty.
SANDRA IGWE: All of these experiences, using my
SANDRA IGWE: legal background, I really wanted to stand
SANDRA IGWE: for change; but also seeing that there were
SANDRA IGWE: so many mums that looked like me, who were
SANDRA IGWE: speaking about the exact same thing, so this
SANDRA IGWE: couldn't just be a coincidence.
SANDRA IGWE: There obviously was a critical issue that
SANDRA IGWE: wasn't really being addressed in the
SANDRA IGWE: mainstream to my knowledge at the time.
SANDRA IGWE: So that's the reason why I started it.
CHI MUMBI: Thank you so much for sharing that.
CHI MUMBI: I mean, it sounds like such a difficult
CHI MUMBI: experience, I can't imagine.
CHI MUMBI: And it must be kind of quite easy — you
CHI MUMBI: know, I don't look down at people at all for
CHI MUMBI: doing this — but it might be quite easy after
CHI MUMBI: those experiences just to not talk about it.
CHI MUMBI: You know, just think "this is just something
CHI MUMBI: that happens. I want to move on. I want to
CHI MUMBI: experience my new baby and move on with life."
CHI MUMBI: But then to use quite a traumatic experience,
CHI MUMBI: it sounds like, to then create a group and then
CHI MUMBI: also help other women who have had those
CHI MUMBI: experiences and also hopefully prevent other
CHI MUMBI: Black women having to go through those traumas.
CHI MUMBI: I think, yeah, that's such an amazing thing.
CHI MUMBI: So thank you.
SANDRA IGWE: Thank you so much for acknowledging that,
SANDRA IGWE: thank you.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: The work that The Motherhood Group does is
ALEXIS GOLDEN: fantastic and we did have a chance to
ALEXIS GOLDEN: attend your conference last year and it was
ALEXIS GOLDEN: really great to hear just the sharing of
ALEXIS GOLDEN: awareness, the spreading of knowledge and
ALEXIS GOLDEN: information, and just having a shared space
ALEXIS GOLDEN: with Black mums — so, yeah, The Motherhood
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Group is wonderful. We're really glad to be
ALEXIS GOLDEN: in partnership together.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: So we've talked about the stats, we've
ALEXIS GOLDEN: talked about the research; but what can
ALEXIS GOLDEN: professionals do, working with expectant
ALEXIS GOLDEN: parents, to support perinatal mental
ALEXIS GOLDEN: health issues?
SANDRA IGWE: Yeah, I think just one thing I would say:
SANDRA IGWE: professionals should really prioritise
SANDRA IGWE: understanding, listening to the concerns and
SANDRA IGWE: recognise that there are biases in care.
SANDRA IGWE: Maybe five, six, seven years ago, this wasn't
SANDRA IGWE: really a thing to openly discuss
SANDRA IGWE: the role that race... how it plays a part in
SANDRA IGWE: maternal experiences, perinatal mental health
SANDRA IGWE: experiences. And so just acknowledging that
SANDRA IGWE: it exists, but also taking the proactive
SANDRA IGWE: steps in putting yourself in training.
SANDRA IGWE: There's so many. We deliver cultural
SANDRA IGWE: competency training. And then making sure
SANDRA IGWE: that you provide a judgement-free environment
SANDRA IGWE: for Black mothers to really share their
SANDRA IGWE: experiences.
CHI MUMBI: Absolutely and I think not having a
CHI MUMBI: one-size-fits-all approach to perinatal
CHI MUMBI: care is really important.
CHI MUMBI: Definitely more awareness around those outdated
CHI MUMBI: stereotypical beliefs about Black women, pain,
CHI MUMBI: what we can tolerate. And ensuring that
CHI MUMBI: there's, kind of, a presence inside
CHI MUMBI: perinatal services so that Black women, and
CHI MUMBI: other women from different ethnic minority
CHI MUMBI: groups, can like they're supported, feel like
CHI MUMBI: there's a space they can go to.
CHI MUMBI: I know that in some hospitals they have now
CHI MUMBI: started doing antenatal classes that are only
CHI MUMBI: for Black and mixed race mums, which I think is
CHI MUMBI: a really positive step, but also for those,
CHI MUMBI: it's a bit of a postcode lottery. So for those
CHI MUMBI: mums who are in perhaps majority white areas,
CHI MUMBI: it is really important even in those spaces to
CHI MUMBI: make sure that professionals keep it a safe
CHI MUMBI: space, have those difficult conversations at
CHI MUMBI: time, and really make expectant mothers and
CHI MUMBI: partners feel like it's a safe space for them
CHI MUMBI: and they're safe to give birth.
CHI MUMBI: It's a really stressful time.
CHI MUMBI: I think that's definitely number one.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Thinking about Pregnancy in Mind (PiM) in
ALEXIS GOLDEN: particular — Chi, how do you think
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Pregnancy in Mind can help new mothers, or
ALEXIS GOLDEN: just new parents in general?
CHI MUMBI: Yeah, I think it helps that it isn't a
CHI MUMBI: one-size-fits-all kind of approach and it isn't
CHI MUMBI: manualised. So we really do look at
CHI MUMBI: the group of women that we have and who are
CHI MUMBI: working one-to-one and think "what will help
CHI MUMBI: this group of women in particular?" And we do
CHI MUMBI: focus as well on neurodivergence now, but also
CHI MUMBI: how are we going to adjust the content to be as
CHI MUMBI: inclusive as possible to all expectant parents.
CHI MUMBI: I think it's also unique in that we do include
CHI MUMBI: partners; other perinatal mental
CHI MUMBI: health services don't always do that, but it's
CHI MUMBI: helpful to have a holistic idea of the family
CHI MUMBI: but also to show how important partners are
CHI MUMBI: for expectant mums.
CHI MUMBI: And if they don't have that support identifying
CHI MUMBI: what support they can have, so we can also
CHI MUMBI: include who we call 'supporters', who could be
CHI MUMBI: expectant parents' grandmothers or sisters or
CHI MUMBI: friends that can come on on the group, because
CHI MUMBI: it's really all about community.
CHI MUMBI: There is of course lots of conversations
CHI MUMBI: around the loneliness epidemic that affect all
CHI MUMBI: different groups of people across the UK, but
CHI MUMBI: in particular, being a lonely mother is
CHI MUMBI: extremely difficult.
CHI MUMBI: It takes a village to raise a child and that's
CHI MUMBI: absolutely true. Having different sources of
CHI MUMBI: support, both professional, but also personal,
CHI MUMBI: is really important for mothers.
CHI MUMBI: And I think PiM helps provide that space so
CHI MUMBI: they feel that "actually, we're not alone." We
CHI MUMBI: had this really wonderful moment in one of the
CHI MUMBI: PiM groups where they all each quite naturally
CHI MUMBI: opened up saying that they had had experiences
CHI MUMBI: of anxiety and depression.
CHI MUMBI: I spoke to one of the mums afterwards and she
CHI MUMBI: was talking about how the taboo was kind of
CHI MUMBI: over and she felt like, "oh, I'm not alone
CHI MUMBI: actually. What I'm feeling isn't strange.
CHI MUMBI: It isn't— it doesn't make me a terrible mum.
CHI MUMBI: It's just actually something that I'm
CHI MUMBI: experiencing, I'm getting support with, and
CHI MUMBI: yeah, I'm not the only person in the world
CHI MUMBI: [experiencing this]." Which I think in the age
CHI MUMBI: of social media, which is helpful in so many
CHI MUMBI: ways, but I can imagine as an expectant parent
CHI MUMBI: looking at all these seemingly perfect images
CHI MUMBI: and videos of ideal motherhood can
CHI MUMBI: be really, really difficult.
CHI MUMBI: So yeah, I think we try to keep it an open,
CHI MUMBI: inclusive space for everyone and really try to
CHI MUMBI: think about people's individual experiences,
CHI MUMBI: adverse experiences, as well as empowering
CHI MUMBI: parents to feel like they can do this and
CHI MUMBI: they're an expert on their body and their
CHI MUMBI: babies; which I think is especially important
CHI MUMBI: when working with Black women, because I think
CHI MUMBI: that... there can be that idea of
CHI MUMBI: not being an expert in your own body and not
CHI MUMBI: taking ownership of your own body, which we try
CHI MUMBI: to promote as much as possible in PiM.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Chi, what are the next steps for Pregnancy
ALEXIS GOLDEN: in Mind as a service across the UK?
CHI MUMBI: Yes, so we're expanding.
CHI MUMBI: So we're currently active in West Sussex [and]
CHI MUMBI: Slough, and the hope is that we're going to
CHI MUMBI: expand into two London boroughs as
CHI MUMBI: well. So our reach is extending.
CHI MUMBI: But also the NSPCC has scale-up, where we
CHI MUMBI: will sell programmes — so programmes like
CHI MUMBI: DART (Domestic Abuse, Recovering Together) for example, but now
CHI MUMBI: it'll be PiM (Pregnancy in Mind) — and that
CHI MUMBI: will mean that PiM can go to different
CHI MUMBI: organisations, different places all over the
CHI MUMBI: country, so it won't just be concentrated
CHI MUMBI: inside our area in London and the Southeast,
CHI MUMBI: which is really exciting as well to see how
CHI MUMBI: it's gonna blossom and develop.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Is Pregnancy in Mind being delivered across
ALEXIS GOLDEN: the NSPCC in other areas as well?
CHI MUMBI: So yeah, PiM is currently being delivered in
CHI MUMBI: several different areas.
CHI MUMBI: But if you look on the NSPCC website for
CHI MUMBI: Pregnancy in Mind, you can check to see if it's
CHI MUMBI: being delivered anywhere near you.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: We'll be sure to leave a link underneath
ALEXIS GOLDEN: the podcast so that you can see where we're
ALEXIS GOLDEN: being delivered right now.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Sandra, what are the interesting projects
ALEXIS GOLDEN: coming up for The Motherhood Group in 2025
ALEXIS GOLDEN: and beyond?
SANDRA IGWE: Yeah, so we have quite a few.
SANDRA IGWE: We have, as I mentioned, our launch of our
SANDRA IGWE: new digital app called Black Mums.
SANDRA IGWE: The title literally is what it says it is.
SANDRA IGWE: It's a safe space for Black mums to connect
SANDRA IGWE: virtually. We often have a lot of these
SANDRA IGWE: wonderful platforms — you know, like Peanut,
SANDRA IGWE: Netmums, Bounty — these are wonderful online
SANDRA IGWE: digital spaces that connects mums, but none
SANDRA IGWE: of it really addresses the unique needs
SANDRA IGWE: that Black women face.
SANDRA IGWE: And so we've created our own version of that,
SANDRA IGWE: where we can speak about all the challenges
SANDRA IGWE: that matter to us, but also connect us with
SANDRA IGWE: like-minded mums locally and nearby.
SANDRA IGWE: We also have the launch of our Black Maternal
SANDRA IGWE: Mental Health Project in collaboration with
SANDRA IGWE: Maternal Mental Health Alliance and Centre
SANDRA IGWE: for Mental Health.
SANDRA IGWE: And so looking at the last eight years
SANDRA IGWE: of our engagement, what are the common themes
SANDRA IGWE: that are important or crucial or essential to
SANDRA IGWE: make the mental health of Black mothers
SANDRA IGWE: thrive. What does good spaces look like?
SANDRA IGWE: What does good communication look like?
SANDRA IGWE: So we'll be launching that at our Black
SANDRA IGWE: maternal health conference in March.
SANDRA IGWE: And then of course, September, our annual
SANDRA IGWE: Black Maternal Mental Health Week, which Chi
SANDRA IGWE: spoke at last year — she was fantastic.
SANDRA IGWE: And we look at common themes relating to,
SANDRA IGWE: you know, helping to bridge the gap, but also
SANDRA IGWE: looking at some of the barriers that Black
SANDRA IGWE: mother's face in mental health or maternal
SANDRA IGWE: mental health but sometimes also wonderful
SANDRA IGWE: solutions and recommendations for
SANDRA IGWE: improvement; such as the role that stigma
SANDRA IGWE: plays, how to connect with grassroots
SANDRA IGWE: community-led organisations, the
SANDRA IGWE: role that, you know, faith and religion, how
SANDRA IGWE: that can be a bridge, but also a barrier in
SANDRA IGWE: seeking support. So please do get involved in
SANDRA IGWE: our daily webinars during that week as well.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Sounds like there's a lot of things coming
ALEXIS GOLDEN: up.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: I've run out of questions, but I'm just
ALEXIS GOLDEN: coming up with this one off the cuff.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: If either of you had to give three big
ALEXIS GOLDEN: takeaways to our listeners today, what
ALEXIS GOLDEN: would they be?
SANDRA IGWE: I'd say one: if you are a professional
SANDRA IGWE: working with expectant parents that
SANDRA IGWE: are from Black or Brown communities, really,
SANDRA IGWE: as I mentioned, listen; it sounds so simple,
SANDRA IGWE: but it's very, very rarely done quite well.
SANDRA IGWE: So actively listen to all the concerns, but
SANDRA IGWE: also recognise again that some of these
SANDRA IGWE: barriers that might not be relevant to you,
SANDRA IGWE: they are really important for a mother that
SANDRA IGWE: wants to receive good quality, adequate
SANDRA IGWE: care. Then make a mother feel safe.
SANDRA IGWE: So provide safe spaces, bring on diverse
SANDRA IGWE: staff to support them, make sure that you're
SANDRA IGWE: able to offer support or care that helps
SANDRA IGWE: to bridge the traditional health services
SANDRA IGWE: by providing those relevant
SANDRA IGWE: support networks and culturally relevant
SANDRA IGWE: resources so that a mother can receive that
SANDRA IGWE: as well.
SANDRA IGWE: And then finally, three: recognise
SANDRA IGWE: that not everybody has the right language to
SANDRA IGWE: articulate that they are struggling with
SANDRA IGWE: perinatal mental health issues.
SANDRA IGWE: In some languages and some cultures, there is
SANDRA IGWE: no word for perinatal mental health or
SANDRA IGWE: postpartum depression.
SANDRA IGWE: And so being open to exploring what that
SANDRA IGWE: might look like for each community and what
SANDRA IGWE: might be the better word.
SANDRA IGWE: Is it wellbeing? Is it care?
SANDRA IGWE: How do you feel?
SANDRA IGWE: Just make sure that you are looking at that
SANDRA IGWE: person as an individual and not seeing them
SANDRA IGWE: as a monolithic group.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Wonderful, thank you so much, Sandra.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Chi, anything to add?
CHI MUMBI: I absolutely agree with Sandra.
CHI MUMBI: I would say that number one for professionals
CHI MUMBI: for me would be to be curious and to continue
CHI MUMBI: to be curious about expectant mothers'
CHI MUMBI: experiences, and really
CHI MUMBI: taking a non-judgmental stance.
CHI MUMBI: So when you're hearing a woman
CHI MUMBI: talk about her difficulties, or you feel like
CHI MUMBI: something else is going on, instead of becoming
CHI MUMBI: judgmental, really trying to unpick that with
CHI MUMBI: her in a caring, thoughtful way that
CHI MUMBI: will not make her turn away and make her feel
CHI MUMBI: like, "I'm feeling judged, I need to leave",
CHI MUMBI: and not actually being able to get that support
CHI MUMBI: later on. I would say number two is recognise
CHI MUMBI: the importance of community.
CHI MUMBI: I mean as Sandra was talking about The
CHI MUMBI: Motherhood Group, I mean it's so amazing — the
CHI MUMBI: power of community and having other people
CHI MUMBI: around you who maybe won't have exactly the
CHI MUMBI: same experiences as you but will understand and
CHI MUMBI: can listen to you and can help care for you.
CHI MUMBI: I think recognising the importance of
CHI MUMBI: community, and as a professional asking
CHI MUMBI: parents, "okay, what support do you have?" And
CHI MUMBI: if they don't have any support and they're
CHI MUMBI: lonely, what support can we provide or can we
CHI MUMBI: help you with? And I do understand the
CHI MUMBI: pressures on NHS staff and all
CHI MUMBI: over the caring sector, but I think
CHI MUMBI: it is really important to recognise and to
CHI MUMBI: identify lonely mums and ways that you
CHI MUMBI: can support them. And I would say third: to
CHI MUMBI: not lose sight of the mental health of the
CHI MUMBI: infant as well.
CHI MUMBI: I know the concept of...
CHI MUMBI: To me anyway, the concept of pregnancy is quite
CHI MUMBI: abstract and when we're working with
CHI MUMBI: participants, we do a lot of connecting to your
CHI MUMBI: baby exercises.
CHI MUMBI: And for some parents, it's the first time they
CHI MUMBI: really thought about questions like, "what
CHI MUMBI: music do you think your baby would like?" Or
CHI MUMBI: "what food you think you baby would enjoy?" And
CHI MUMBI: they are quite abstract questions but it does
CHI MUMBI: help you connect more with your baby.
CHI MUMBI: The purpose of those connecting to you baby
CHI MUMBI: exercises is so that we're thinking about the
CHI MUMBI: baby and bringing the baby into the room, but
CHI MUMBI: also thinking about the potential mental health
CHI MUMBI: of the baby and linking the mental health of
CHI MUMBI: the parents to their child as well.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Wonderful. Well, thank you both for those
ALEXIS GOLDEN: key takeaways. I think you've given our
ALEXIS GOLDEN: listeners a lot to take in.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: I'll close here, but I just wanted to say a
ALEXIS GOLDEN: big thank you to both Chi and Sandra for
ALEXIS GOLDEN: your time today and for sharing your
ALEXIS GOLDEN: experiences. We have a lot of information
ALEXIS GOLDEN: to share with our audience.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: If you want to learn more about Pregnancy
ALEXIS GOLDEN: in Mind or The Motherhood Group, we will be
ALEXIS GOLDEN: sure to put those in our podcast notes.
ALEXIS GOLDEN: Chi and Sandra, thank you so much for your
ALEXIS GOLDEN: time.
CHI MUMBI: Thank you so much.
SANDRA IGWE: Thank you for having us. Thank You.
OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning
OUTRO: Podcast.
OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content
OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and
OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing.
OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current
OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training,
OUTRO: information or resources,
OUTRO: please visit our website for professionals at
OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.