1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,059 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where 2 00:00:06,060 --> 00:00:08,939 INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection 3 00:00:08,940 --> 00:00:12,399 INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation. 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,459 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and 5 00:00:15,460 --> 00:00:18,219 INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together 6 00:00:18,220 --> 00:00:21,100 INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe. 7 00:00:24,090 --> 00:00:27,409 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast. 8 00:00:27,410 --> 00:00:29,209 ALEXIS GOLDEN: I'm Alexis Golden, and I'm a project 9 00:00:29,210 --> 00:00:31,849 ALEXIS GOLDEN: development manager at the NSPCC. 10 00:00:31,850 --> 00:00:33,629 ALEXIS GOLDEN: I'm leading the development of our 11 00:00:33,630 --> 00:00:35,669 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Pregnancy in Mind service. 12 00:00:35,670 --> 00:00:37,809 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Pregnancy in Mind is a preventative service 13 00:00:37,810 --> 00:00:40,129 ALEXIS GOLDEN: designed to support parents who are at risk 14 00:00:40,130 --> 00:00:42,349 ALEXIS GOLDEN: of, or experiencing, perinatal mental 15 00:00:42,350 --> 00:00:43,450 ALEXIS GOLDEN: health difficulties. 16 00:00:44,490 --> 00:00:47,009 ALEXIS GOLDEN: NHS England defines perinatal mental health 17 00:00:47,010 --> 00:00:49,449 ALEXIS GOLDEN: problems as "problems which occurred during 18 00:00:49,450 --> 00:00:51,849 ALEXIS GOLDEN: pregnancy or in the first year following 19 00:00:51,850 --> 00:00:53,389 ALEXIS GOLDEN: the birth of a child". 20 00:00:53,390 --> 00:00:55,949 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Examples include postnatal and antenatal 21 00:00:55,950 --> 00:00:57,326 ALEXIS GOLDEN: depression; anxiety; OCD; 22 00:00:59,530 --> 00:01:02,449 ALEXIS GOLDEN: birth trauma and PTSD; and postpartum 23 00:01:02,450 --> 00:01:03,869 ALEXIS GOLDEN: psychosis. 24 00:01:03,870 --> 00:01:05,969 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Perinatal mental health difficulties have 25 00:01:05,970 --> 00:01:08,269 ALEXIS GOLDEN: the potential to have a big impact on 26 00:01:08,270 --> 00:01:10,429 ALEXIS GOLDEN: parents and their babies. 27 00:01:10,430 --> 00:01:13,129 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Persistent problems during the antenatal 28 00:01:13,130 --> 00:01:15,969 ALEXIS GOLDEN: period can affect the baby's development. 29 00:01:15,970 --> 00:01:17,989 ALEXIS GOLDEN: And after birth, if parents aren't getting 30 00:01:17,990 --> 00:01:20,129 ALEXIS GOLDEN: the support they need, this can affect 31 00:01:20,130 --> 00:01:22,149 ALEXIS GOLDEN: their ability to provide responsive care 32 00:01:22,150 --> 00:01:23,409 ALEXIS GOLDEN: for their children. 33 00:01:23,410 --> 00:01:26,309 ALEXIS GOLDEN: It's estimated that over 25% of new 34 00:01:26,310 --> 00:01:28,889 ALEXIS GOLDEN: and expectant mothers are affected by some 35 00:01:28,890 --> 00:01:30,595 ALEXIS GOLDEN: form of perinatal mental health difficulty, 36 00:01:30,596 --> 00:01:33,489 ALEXIS GOLDEN: and Black mothers are disproportionately 37 00:01:33,490 --> 00:01:34,909 ALEXIS GOLDEN: affected. 38 00:01:34,910 --> 00:01:37,269 ALEXIS GOLDEN: 13% more Black mothers experience 39 00:01:37,270 --> 00:01:40,169 ALEXIS GOLDEN: postpartum depression than any other group. 40 00:01:40,170 --> 00:01:42,369 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Furthermore, one in five Black mothers 41 00:01:42,370 --> 00:01:44,189 ALEXIS GOLDEN: reported they did not visit healthcare 42 00:01:44,190 --> 00:01:46,109 ALEXIS GOLDEN: professionals when they were experiencing 43 00:01:46,110 --> 00:01:49,089 ALEXIS GOLDEN: low mood. In this episode of the podcast, 44 00:01:49,090 --> 00:01:52,019 ALEXIS GOLDEN: recorded in January 2025, we're going to 45 00:01:52,020 --> 00:01:54,479 ALEXIS GOLDEN: look at why this is the case, what the 46 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,439 ALEXIS GOLDEN: effect is on babies and young children, and 47 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,539 ALEXIS GOLDEN: how healthcare professionals can do better 48 00:01:59,540 --> 00:02:01,579 ALEXIS GOLDEN: to support Black mothers with their mental 49 00:02:01,580 --> 00:02:04,759 ALEXIS GOLDEN: health. I'm joined by two guests, Chi and 50 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:05,749 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Sandra. 51 00:02:05,750 --> 00:02:08,769 SANDRA IGWE: Hi everybody, I am Sandra Igwe 52 00:02:08,770 --> 00:02:11,249 SANDRA IGWE: and I am the founder and the chief exec at 53 00:02:11,250 --> 00:02:12,489 SANDRA IGWE: The Motherhood Group. 54 00:02:12,490 --> 00:02:14,189 SANDRA IGWE: The Motherhood Group is a grassroots 55 00:02:14,190 --> 00:02:16,049 SANDRA IGWE: organisation and social enterprise that 56 00:02:16,050 --> 00:02:19,009 SANDRA IGWE: really supports the black maternal experience 57 00:02:19,010 --> 00:02:21,069 SANDRA IGWE: through a number of way: peer-to-peer 58 00:02:21,070 --> 00:02:24,349 SANDRA IGWE: support, national campaigns, training, 59 00:02:24,350 --> 00:02:26,249 SANDRA IGWE: advocacy and research. 60 00:02:26,250 --> 00:02:27,250 SANDRA IGWE: It's great to be here with you. 61 00:02:28,819 --> 00:02:30,239 CHI MUMBI: Hello, I'm Chi, I'm a children's services 62 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,339 CHI MUMBI: practitioner which is a social worker 63 00:02:33,340 --> 00:02:36,279 CHI MUMBI: role for the NSPCC, and I work in the London 64 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,579 CHI MUMBI: and South East England team. 65 00:02:38,580 --> 00:02:41,499 CHI MUMBI: I help deliver Pregnancy in Mind, Letting 66 00:02:41,500 --> 00:02:43,319 CHI MUMBI: the Future In, which is our sexual abuse 67 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,119 CHI MUMBI: recovery service, and Domestic Abuse Recovery 68 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,439 CHI MUMBI: Together, which is our domestic abuse recovery 69 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:49,409 CHI MUMBI: service. 70 00:02:49,410 --> 00:02:51,049 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Thank you both so much for being here with 71 00:02:51,050 --> 00:02:53,249 ALEXIS GOLDEN: us today. We're going to start with the 72 00:02:53,250 --> 00:02:56,549 ALEXIS GOLDEN: first question, which is: what is 73 00:02:56,550 --> 00:02:59,269 ALEXIS GOLDEN: perinatal mental health and why is it 74 00:02:59,270 --> 00:03:00,270 ALEXIS GOLDEN: important? 75 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,239 SANDRA IGWE: From my experience working with and for Black 76 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,659 SANDRA IGWE: mothers and Black women, perinatal mental 77 00:03:06,660 --> 00:03:09,819 SANDRA IGWE: health really refers to a mother's emotional 78 00:03:09,820 --> 00:03:12,399 SANDRA IGWE: and psychological wellbeing during her 79 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,399 SANDRA IGWE: pregnancy and within the first year 80 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,939 SANDRA IGWE: after birth. It's really, really important 81 00:03:17,940 --> 00:03:20,999 SANDRA IGWE: because this period really involves a 82 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,399 SANDRA IGWE: significant amount of physical, 83 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,919 SANDRA IGWE: hormonal and life changes as a whole, and it 84 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:29,079 SANDRA IGWE: can really impact any person, especially 85 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:30,999 SANDRA IGWE: mothers' mental health during this period. 86 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,919 SANDRA IGWE: But good perinatal mental health is really 87 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:36,659 SANDRA IGWE: important and essential for both the mother 88 00:03:36,660 --> 00:03:39,619 SANDRA IGWE: and also her baby's development, when 89 00:03:39,620 --> 00:03:42,199 SANDRA IGWE: it comes to bonding and looking at the 90 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,749 SANDRA IGWE: overall long term wellbeing of the family. 91 00:03:45,750 --> 00:03:47,789 CHI MUMBI: Just to add on to what Sandra said, perinatal 92 00:03:47,790 --> 00:03:49,969 CHI MUMBI: health and infant mental health is obviously 93 00:03:49,970 --> 00:03:52,189 CHI MUMBI: very interlinked towards each other as well. 94 00:03:52,190 --> 00:03:54,289 CHI MUMBI: So it's hard to separate perinatal mental 95 00:03:54,290 --> 00:03:56,489 CHI MUMBI: health and infant mental health, because good 96 00:03:56,490 --> 00:03:58,809 CHI MUMBI: positive mental health for the mother means 97 00:03:58,810 --> 00:04:01,469 CHI MUMBI: good positive mental health for infant as well. 98 00:04:01,470 --> 00:04:04,639 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Just from both your practice perspectives, 99 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,039 ALEXIS GOLDEN: how can perinatal mental health issues 100 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,159 ALEXIS GOLDEN: affect babies and children, short term 101 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:11,519 ALEXIS GOLDEN: or long term? 102 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,659 CHI MUMBI: If mothers are experiencing high levels of 103 00:04:13,660 --> 00:04:16,919 CHI MUMBI: anxiety and depression, very often during 104 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,419 CHI MUMBI: pregnancy there's a spike of stress hormones, 105 00:04:20,420 --> 00:04:22,819 CHI MUMBI: which means that there's more cortisol that is 106 00:04:22,820 --> 00:04:24,639 CHI MUMBI: being, kind of, let out — and we do tend to 107 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,039 CHI MUMBI: think of cortisol as being the stress hormone, 108 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,019 CHI MUMBI: but that's actually not true. 109 00:04:29,020 --> 00:04:31,119 CHI MUMBI: It's actually an anti-stress hormone, but it 110 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:32,859 CHI MUMBI: does mean the release of cortisol is often 111 00:04:32,860 --> 00:04:35,259 CHI MUMBI: linked with babies having developmental 112 00:04:35,260 --> 00:04:38,199 CHI MUMBI: difficulties and there is an impact on infant 113 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,499 CHI MUMBI: mental health. But also there are societal 114 00:04:41,500 --> 00:04:43,699 CHI MUMBI: difficulties, not just in terms of just 115 00:04:43,700 --> 00:04:45,139 CHI MUMBI: thinking about mental health as something that 116 00:04:45,140 --> 00:04:47,099 CHI MUMBI: just exists inside the mind. 117 00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:49,499 CHI MUMBI: If there's any trauma, any kind of abuse going 118 00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:51,499 CHI MUMBI: on, that is obviously going to impact the baby 119 00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:53,399 CHI MUMBI: as well. So it's really important, of course, 120 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,979 CHI MUMBI: for mothers to have a really positive mental 121 00:04:55,980 --> 00:04:57,399 CHI MUMBI: health experience during their pregnancy 122 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,279 CHI MUMBI: because it is linked to better outcomes for 123 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:00,819 CHI MUMBI: infants and children as a whole. 124 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,999 SANDRA IGWE: Just to piggyback off what Chi just said, 125 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,919 SANDRA IGWE: it can really affect the baby and 126 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:09,919 SANDRA IGWE: the children in so many different ways. 127 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:11,839 SANDRA IGWE: It can even just affect the mother's ability 128 00:05:11,840 --> 00:05:15,319 SANDRA IGWE: of bonding. I've seen so many mothers in our 129 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,319 SANDRA IGWE: organisation that come in that have struggled 130 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,259 SANDRA IGWE: to bond with their baby or respond to their 131 00:05:20,260 --> 00:05:22,019 SANDRA IGWE: baby when they're struggling with their 132 00:05:22,020 --> 00:05:23,879 SANDRA IGWE: mental health. And this can really impact the 133 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,839 SANDRA IGWE: baby's emotional development, how they grow 134 00:05:26,840 --> 00:05:29,809 SANDRA IGWE: up, how they form attachments; and as you 135 00:05:29,810 --> 00:05:31,889 SANDRA IGWE: mentioned, stress response systems as well 136 00:05:31,890 --> 00:05:33,869 SANDRA IGWE: that can really impact a baby when their 137 00:05:33,870 --> 00:05:35,067 SANDRA IGWE: mothers go through depression [and] anxiety. 138 00:05:36,210 --> 00:05:39,729 SANDRA IGWE: But also research shows that when mother's 139 00:05:39,730 --> 00:05:42,849 SANDRA IGWE: mental health goes untreated or the issues 140 00:05:42,850 --> 00:05:45,649 SANDRA IGWE: are left to the wayside, it can really 141 00:05:45,650 --> 00:05:48,329 SANDRA IGWE: influence children's emotional regulation, 142 00:05:48,330 --> 00:05:50,309 SANDRA IGWE: their behaviour as an overall sort of 143 00:05:50,310 --> 00:05:52,209 SANDRA IGWE: standing point, but also their cognitive 144 00:05:52,210 --> 00:05:55,129 SANDRA IGWE: brain development as well, long term as 145 00:05:55,130 --> 00:05:55,909 SANDRA IGWE: well. 146 00:05:55,910 --> 00:05:57,309 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Thank you both. 147 00:05:57,310 --> 00:06:00,329 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Moving on to the second question, why 148 00:06:00,330 --> 00:06:03,189 ALEXIS GOLDEN: are Black mothers more likely to experience 149 00:06:03,190 --> 00:06:05,769 ALEXIS GOLDEN: perinatal mental health issues, including 150 00:06:05,770 --> 00:06:07,769 ALEXIS GOLDEN: postnatal depression? 151 00:06:07,770 --> 00:06:09,389 SANDRA IGWE: I mean, I'm happy to answer that question. 152 00:06:09,390 --> 00:06:12,549 SANDRA IGWE: We can really be here all day if I share 153 00:06:12,550 --> 00:06:15,089 SANDRA IGWE: all that we've heard and learned through our 154 00:06:15,090 --> 00:06:16,769 SANDRA IGWE: own research over the last eight [or] nine 155 00:06:16,770 --> 00:06:18,529 SANDRA IGWE: years of running The Motherhood Group. 156 00:06:18,530 --> 00:06:21,889 SANDRA IGWE: But just to simplify, the, I guess, 157 00:06:21,890 --> 00:06:24,529 SANDRA IGWE: core main reason is when we experience higher 158 00:06:24,530 --> 00:06:28,309 SANDRA IGWE: rates of racism within health care settings, 159 00:06:28,310 --> 00:06:31,209 SANDRA IGWE: that naturally will impact the way we 160 00:06:31,210 --> 00:06:33,304 SANDRA IGWE: receive care, want to receive care, or 161 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,159 SANDRA IGWE: also when it comes to accessing culturally 162 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,259 SANDRA IGWE: appropriate care; it really impacts that. 163 00:06:40,260 --> 00:06:41,859 SANDRA IGWE: Also, when you've had previous traumatic 164 00:06:41,860 --> 00:06:43,579 SANDRA IGWE: experiences, you know, we're more likely to 165 00:06:43,580 --> 00:06:46,259 SANDRA IGWE: have higher maternal mortality rates, i.e. 166 00:06:46,260 --> 00:06:49,399 SANDRA IGWE: we're likely to be unalived in pregnancy or 167 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,159 SANDRA IGWE: maternity care settings, as well as our 168 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,299 SANDRA IGWE: babies having a higher increase of neonatal 169 00:06:55,300 --> 00:06:57,759 SANDRA IGWE: death, miscarriages, stillbirth. 170 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,999 SANDRA IGWE: We're more like to have hypertension, 171 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,109 SANDRA IGWE: emergency C-sections. All of this, all of 172 00:07:02,110 --> 00:07:04,309 SANDRA IGWE: these numbers that I've just shared, all this 173 00:07:04,310 --> 00:07:07,689 SANDRA IGWE: data will obviously impact a mother's 174 00:07:07,690 --> 00:07:09,889 SANDRA IGWE: rate of postnatal depression. 175 00:07:09,890 --> 00:07:12,889 SANDRA IGWE: But also just the cumulative impact of all 176 00:07:12,890 --> 00:07:14,249 SANDRA IGWE: of this; knowing that you're more likely to 177 00:07:14,250 --> 00:07:16,509 SANDRA IGWE: have horrible outcomes in maternity care, 178 00:07:16,510 --> 00:07:19,229 SANDRA IGWE: knowing that you face, sadly, discrimination, 179 00:07:19,230 --> 00:07:22,089 SANDRA IGWE: whether it's covert discrimination or overt 180 00:07:22,090 --> 00:07:24,929 SANDRA IGWE: or, you know, preassumptions, misconceptions, 181 00:07:24,930 --> 00:07:27,519 SANDRA IGWE: preconceptions. All of this will make you 182 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,959 SANDRA IGWE: have a higher level of mental health 183 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:32,739 SANDRA IGWE: challenges but also make you not want to have 184 00:07:32,740 --> 00:07:35,139 SANDRA IGWE: treatment because you don't have that trust 185 00:07:35,140 --> 00:07:38,199 SANDRA IGWE: in the healthcare system and also won't 186 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,399 SANDRA IGWE: have access for many reasons such as 187 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,759 SANDRA IGWE: socio-economical pressures as well as 188 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:46,719 SANDRA IGWE: concerns not being taken seriously by 189 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:48,579 SANDRA IGWE: healthcare providers as we've seen time and 190 00:07:48,580 --> 00:07:49,359 SANDRA IGWE: time again. 191 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,179 CHI MUMBI: Absolutely what Sandra said. 192 00:07:51,180 --> 00:07:53,519 CHI MUMBI: I think that when you are racialised in the way 193 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:55,399 CHI MUMBI: that Black women are, which in a very specific 194 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,579 CHI MUMBI: way can often be sexualisation, but very 195 00:07:58,580 --> 00:08:01,599 CHI MUMBI: often health professionals have historically 196 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,299 CHI MUMBI: thought that Black woman can withstand pain 197 00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:06,159 CHI MUMBI: more compared to other women, which is 198 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,739 CHI MUMBI: obviously not true. But because of that idea, 199 00:08:08,740 --> 00:08:10,379 CHI MUMBI: it's meant that when Black women are 200 00:08:10,380 --> 00:08:12,479 CHI MUMBI: experiencing pain giving birth or anything 201 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,399 CHI MUMBI: related to any symptoms they may be having 202 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,299 CHI MUMBI: during their pregnancy, that's often ignored. 203 00:08:17,300 --> 00:08:19,549 CHI MUMBI: There's also, if you are racialised, there is a 204 00:08:19,550 --> 00:08:21,601 CHI MUMBI: sense of becoming disconnected from your body, 205 00:08:21,602 --> 00:08:24,549 CHI MUMBI: and, of course, being pregnant is a very 206 00:08:24,550 --> 00:08:26,769 CHI MUMBI: embodied experience. It's very hard to run away 207 00:08:26,770 --> 00:08:29,569 CHI MUMBI: from all the sensations, the feelings, 208 00:08:29,570 --> 00:08:31,669 CHI MUMBI: everything. And because of that kind of 209 00:08:31,670 --> 00:08:34,629 CHI MUMBI: disconnection, you could end up not wanting to 210 00:08:34,630 --> 00:08:36,389 CHI MUMBI: go and get support because you're just in 211 00:08:36,390 --> 00:08:37,849 CHI MUMBI: survival mode all the time. 212 00:08:37,850 --> 00:08:39,788 CHI MUMBI: And it's very to connect to your baby if you're 213 00:08:39,789 --> 00:08:41,048 CHI MUMBI: in survival mode. 214 00:08:41,049 --> 00:08:43,249 CHI MUMBI: So I think these things can lead to increased 215 00:08:43,250 --> 00:08:45,329 CHI MUMBI: mental health problems which, yeah, there's a 216 00:08:45,330 --> 00:08:47,779 CHI MUMBI: very specific way of being racialised in this 217 00:08:47,780 --> 00:08:49,959 CHI MUMBI: country as a black woman. 218 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,239 ALEXIS GOLDEN: I think this topic dovetails nicely into 219 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,439 ALEXIS GOLDEN: the next question, which is about The 220 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:55,919 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Motherhood Group. 221 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,439 ALEXIS GOLDEN: What role does The Motherhood Group play in 222 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,379 ALEXIS GOLDEN: supporting the black maternal experience? 223 00:09:01,380 --> 00:09:03,939 SANDRA IGWE: Yeah, so we see ourselves as a bridge. 224 00:09:03,940 --> 00:09:06,419 SANDRA IGWE: A bridge between the community of Black 225 00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:09,239 SANDRA IGWE: mothers and pregnant women, and then the 226 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,519 SANDRA IGWE: wider system: healthcare practitioners, 227 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,239 SANDRA IGWE: maternity services, policy advisors, 228 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,039 SANDRA IGWE: and just wider stakeholders as a whole. 229 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:18,439 SANDRA IGWE: And the reason why we see ourselves as bridges 230 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,359 SANDRA IGWE: is because for many years, as I mentioned 231 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,679 SANDRA IGWE: earlier, there has been a breakdown of trust 232 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:24,999 SANDRA IGWE: between the community and the system as a 233 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,459 SANDRA IGWE: whole. So we see ourselves as ways of 234 00:09:27,460 --> 00:09:30,409 SANDRA IGWE: rebuilding that trust and also ways 235 00:09:30,410 --> 00:09:32,689 SANDRA IGWE: that mothers— ports that mothers can get, you 236 00:09:32,690 --> 00:09:36,049 SANDRA IGWE: know, culturally-specific support. 237 00:09:36,050 --> 00:09:38,109 SANDRA IGWE: We provide safe spaces where Black mothers 238 00:09:38,110 --> 00:09:40,929 SANDRA IGWE: can really share their experiences, share 239 00:09:40,930 --> 00:09:44,129 SANDRA IGWE: resources and ways of accessing information. 240 00:09:44,130 --> 00:09:47,049 SANDRA IGWE: We do this through our Black Maternal Health 241 00:09:47,050 --> 00:09:49,089 SANDRA IGWE: Conference, our annual conference that allows 242 00:09:49,090 --> 00:09:51,009 SANDRA IGWE: Black mothers to finally have a platform to 243 00:09:51,010 --> 00:09:53,089 SANDRA IGWE: speak about all of the intricate details that 244 00:09:53,090 --> 00:09:55,909 SANDRA IGWE: matter to us in our maternity care, in our 245 00:09:55,910 --> 00:09:57,909 SANDRA IGWE: motherhood experience and in our pregnancy as 246 00:09:57,910 --> 00:10:00,179 SANDRA IGWE: well. We have our peer-to-peer support and we 247 00:10:00,180 --> 00:10:02,939 SANDRA IGWE: have our newly launched Black Mums app now, 248 00:10:02,940 --> 00:10:05,839 SANDRA IGWE: that uses AI to connect Black mothers 249 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,799 SANDRA IGWE: with similar lived experiences so that you 250 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,238 SANDRA IGWE: don't have to face this journey alone. 251 00:10:09,239 --> 00:10:12,239 SANDRA IGWE: You know that isolation can contribute 252 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,439 SANDRA IGWE: negatively to mental health experiences 253 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,139 SANDRA IGWE: as a whole. 254 00:10:17,140 --> 00:10:19,899 SANDRA IGWE: So we help bridge gaps in traditional health 255 00:10:19,900 --> 00:10:23,279 SANDRA IGWE: care services by providing this sort of 256 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,259 SANDRA IGWE: tailored, informed peer support, as well as 257 00:10:26,260 --> 00:10:29,189 SANDRA IGWE: our training that equips health care staff to 258 00:10:29,190 --> 00:10:31,929 SANDRA IGWE: really support us and acknowledge the unique 259 00:10:31,930 --> 00:10:33,370 SANDRA IGWE: challenges that Black mothers face. 260 00:10:34,389 --> 00:10:35,889 CHI MUMBI: Why did you start up The Motherhood Group? 261 00:10:35,890 --> 00:10:37,469 CHI MUMBI: Why did you think it was important? 262 00:10:37,470 --> 00:10:38,989 CHI MUMBI: I mean, obviously it's important, but I'm just 263 00:10:38,990 --> 00:10:41,259 CHI MUMBI: interested in the why. 264 00:10:41,260 --> 00:10:43,139 SANDRA IGWE: Yes, no, thank you for that question, Chi. 265 00:10:43,140 --> 00:10:44,939 SANDRA IGWE: Do you know what? It came out of lived 266 00:10:44,940 --> 00:10:46,959 SANDRA IGWE: experience. So eight and a half years ago, 267 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,919 SANDRA IGWE: when I was pregnant with my first daughter, I 268 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:51,479 SANDRA IGWE: saw that there was a massive gap in the 269 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,899 SANDRA IGWE: system and I was quite frustrated because I 270 00:10:53,900 --> 00:10:55,336 SANDRA IGWE: didn't feel like a lot of my concerns were 271 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,179 SANDRA IGWE: spoken about as a Black British-born mother, 272 00:11:00,180 --> 00:11:02,299 SANDRA IGWE: first time mother. And so I would Google 'Black 273 00:11:02,300 --> 00:11:04,639 SANDRA IGWE: mum support group' and nothing would pop up 274 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,359 SANDRA IGWE: on Google, only things maybe in America. 275 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,319 SANDRA IGWE: And so, I thought, "okay, why can't I see 276 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,579 SANDRA IGWE: any prominent safe spaces for Black mothers?" 277 00:11:12,580 --> 00:11:14,779 SANDRA IGWE: Just because when I did go to some of these 278 00:11:14,780 --> 00:11:17,259 SANDRA IGWE: classes or programmes or mummy and baby 279 00:11:17,260 --> 00:11:18,919 SANDRA IGWE: groups, I was always the only Black mother in 280 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:21,159 SANDRA IGWE: the space. For many people that might be 281 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,699 SANDRA IGWE: okay, but actually that exasperated my 282 00:11:23,700 --> 00:11:25,679 SANDRA IGWE: undiagnosed postnatal depression. 283 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:27,679 SANDRA IGWE: I definitely did not go and get any 284 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:29,739 SANDRA IGWE: traditional clinical support for that 285 00:11:29,740 --> 00:11:32,460 SANDRA IGWE: because, like I mentioned, I had, you know, a 286 00:11:32,461 --> 00:11:34,499 SANDRA IGWE: breakdown in trust where my healthcare 287 00:11:34,500 --> 00:11:36,419 SANDRA IGWE: practitioner treated me differently because 288 00:11:36,420 --> 00:11:38,239 SANDRA IGWE: of the colour of my skin and at the time I 289 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,919 SANDRA IGWE: didn't know the data surrounding Black women. 290 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,159 SANDRA IGWE: I just knew that I was treated differently 291 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,359 SANDRA IGWE: and I had substandard care in my 292 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,139 SANDRA IGWE: birthing experience. I was sent home five 293 00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:50,719 SANDRA IGWE: times. I was told that I was exaggerating my 294 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,199 SANDRA IGWE: pain. I didn't get pain relief after begging 295 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,199 SANDRA IGWE: and pleading for hours. 296 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,019 SANDRA IGWE: My daughter passed a meconium stool on the 297 00:11:58,020 --> 00:12:00,559 SANDRA IGWE: way out. She is fine now, but the trust 298 00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:02,359 SANDRA IGWE: admitted to a breach of duty. 299 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,319 SANDRA IGWE: All of these experiences, using my 300 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,279 SANDRA IGWE: legal background, I really wanted to stand 301 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,599 SANDRA IGWE: for change; but also seeing that there were 302 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,479 SANDRA IGWE: so many mums that looked like me, who were 303 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,299 SANDRA IGWE: speaking about the exact same thing, so this 304 00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:15,979 SANDRA IGWE: couldn't just be a coincidence. 305 00:12:15,980 --> 00:12:18,789 SANDRA IGWE: There obviously was a critical issue that 306 00:12:18,790 --> 00:12:20,709 SANDRA IGWE: wasn't really being addressed in the 307 00:12:20,710 --> 00:12:22,389 SANDRA IGWE: mainstream to my knowledge at the time. 308 00:12:22,390 --> 00:12:24,199 SANDRA IGWE: So that's the reason why I started it. 309 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:25,559 CHI MUMBI: Thank you so much for sharing that. 310 00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:27,239 CHI MUMBI: I mean, it sounds like such a difficult 311 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:28,479 CHI MUMBI: experience, I can't imagine. 312 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,379 CHI MUMBI: And it must be kind of quite easy — you 313 00:12:31,380 --> 00:12:33,139 CHI MUMBI: know, I don't look down at people at all for 314 00:12:33,140 --> 00:12:34,659 CHI MUMBI: doing this — but it might be quite easy after 315 00:12:34,660 --> 00:12:37,599 CHI MUMBI: those experiences just to not talk about it. 316 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:38,899 CHI MUMBI: You know, just think "this is just something 317 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:40,599 CHI MUMBI: that happens. I want to move on. I want to 318 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,439 CHI MUMBI: experience my new baby and move on with life." 319 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,819 CHI MUMBI: But then to use quite a traumatic experience, 320 00:12:45,820 --> 00:12:48,099 CHI MUMBI: it sounds like, to then create a group and then 321 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:50,059 CHI MUMBI: also help other women who have had those 322 00:12:50,060 --> 00:12:52,219 CHI MUMBI: experiences and also hopefully prevent other 323 00:12:52,220 --> 00:12:53,979 CHI MUMBI: Black women having to go through those traumas. 324 00:12:53,980 --> 00:12:55,819 CHI MUMBI: I think, yeah, that's such an amazing thing. 325 00:12:55,820 --> 00:12:56,599 CHI MUMBI: So thank you. 326 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,579 SANDRA IGWE: Thank you so much for acknowledging that, 327 00:12:58,580 --> 00:12:59,678 SANDRA IGWE: thank you. 328 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:01,499 ALEXIS GOLDEN: The work that The Motherhood Group does is 329 00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:04,039 ALEXIS GOLDEN: fantastic and we did have a chance to 330 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:05,879 ALEXIS GOLDEN: attend your conference last year and it was 331 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,679 ALEXIS GOLDEN: really great to hear just the sharing of 332 00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:11,439 ALEXIS GOLDEN: awareness, the spreading of knowledge and 333 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,619 ALEXIS GOLDEN: information, and just having a shared space 334 00:13:13,620 --> 00:13:16,123 ALEXIS GOLDEN: with Black mums — so, yeah, The Motherhood 335 00:13:16,124 --> 00:13:18,299 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Group is wonderful. We're really glad to be 336 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:20,059 ALEXIS GOLDEN: in partnership together. 337 00:13:20,060 --> 00:13:22,179 ALEXIS GOLDEN: So we've talked about the stats, we've 338 00:13:22,180 --> 00:13:25,039 ALEXIS GOLDEN: talked about the research; but what can 339 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,497 ALEXIS GOLDEN: professionals do, working with expectant 340 00:13:27,498 --> 00:13:30,429 ALEXIS GOLDEN: parents, to support perinatal mental 341 00:13:30,430 --> 00:13:31,869 ALEXIS GOLDEN: health issues? 342 00:13:31,870 --> 00:13:34,649 SANDRA IGWE: Yeah, I think just one thing I would say: 343 00:13:34,650 --> 00:13:36,249 SANDRA IGWE: professionals should really prioritise 344 00:13:36,250 --> 00:13:39,329 SANDRA IGWE: understanding, listening to the concerns and 345 00:13:39,330 --> 00:13:42,029 SANDRA IGWE: recognise that there are biases in care. 346 00:13:42,030 --> 00:13:44,709 SANDRA IGWE: Maybe five, six, seven years ago, this wasn't 347 00:13:44,710 --> 00:13:47,729 SANDRA IGWE: really a thing to openly discuss 348 00:13:47,730 --> 00:13:50,969 SANDRA IGWE: the role that race... how it plays a part in 349 00:13:50,970 --> 00:13:52,969 SANDRA IGWE: maternal experiences, perinatal mental health 350 00:13:52,970 --> 00:13:55,569 SANDRA IGWE: experiences. And so just acknowledging that 351 00:13:55,570 --> 00:13:57,309 SANDRA IGWE: it exists, but also taking the proactive 352 00:13:57,310 --> 00:13:59,629 SANDRA IGWE: steps in putting yourself in training. 353 00:13:59,630 --> 00:14:01,599 SANDRA IGWE: There's so many. We deliver cultural 354 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,019 SANDRA IGWE: competency training. And then making sure 355 00:14:04,020 --> 00:14:06,439 SANDRA IGWE: that you provide a judgement-free environment 356 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,859 SANDRA IGWE: for Black mothers to really share their 357 00:14:08,860 --> 00:14:10,129 SANDRA IGWE: experiences. 358 00:14:10,130 --> 00:14:12,749 CHI MUMBI: Absolutely and I think not having a 359 00:14:12,750 --> 00:14:15,709 CHI MUMBI: one-size-fits-all approach to perinatal 360 00:14:15,710 --> 00:14:17,889 CHI MUMBI: care is really important. 361 00:14:17,890 --> 00:14:20,389 CHI MUMBI: Definitely more awareness around those outdated 362 00:14:20,390 --> 00:14:23,409 CHI MUMBI: stereotypical beliefs about Black women, pain, 363 00:14:23,410 --> 00:14:26,109 CHI MUMBI: what we can tolerate. And ensuring that 364 00:14:26,110 --> 00:14:29,029 CHI MUMBI: there's, kind of, a presence inside 365 00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:31,849 CHI MUMBI: perinatal services so that Black women, and 366 00:14:31,850 --> 00:14:33,709 CHI MUMBI: other women from different ethnic minority 367 00:14:33,710 --> 00:14:35,929 CHI MUMBI: groups, can like they're supported, feel like 368 00:14:35,930 --> 00:14:37,379 CHI MUMBI: there's a space they can go to. 369 00:14:37,380 --> 00:14:39,719 CHI MUMBI: I know that in some hospitals they have now 370 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,179 CHI MUMBI: started doing antenatal classes that are only 371 00:14:42,180 --> 00:14:44,759 CHI MUMBI: for Black and mixed race mums, which I think is 372 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,459 CHI MUMBI: a really positive step, but also for those, 373 00:14:47,460 --> 00:14:49,199 CHI MUMBI: it's a bit of a postcode lottery. So for those 374 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,459 CHI MUMBI: mums who are in perhaps majority white areas, 375 00:14:52,460 --> 00:14:54,379 CHI MUMBI: it is really important even in those spaces to 376 00:14:54,380 --> 00:14:56,339 CHI MUMBI: make sure that professionals keep it a safe 377 00:14:56,340 --> 00:14:58,439 CHI MUMBI: space, have those difficult conversations at 378 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,299 CHI MUMBI: time, and really make expectant mothers and 379 00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:04,309 CHI MUMBI: partners feel like it's a safe space for them 380 00:15:04,310 --> 00:15:05,629 CHI MUMBI: and they're safe to give birth. 381 00:15:05,630 --> 00:15:06,949 CHI MUMBI: It's a really stressful time. 382 00:15:06,950 --> 00:15:09,559 CHI MUMBI: I think that's definitely number one. 383 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,839 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Thinking about Pregnancy in Mind (PiM) in 384 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,599 ALEXIS GOLDEN: particular — Chi, how do you think 385 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,419 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Pregnancy in Mind can help new mothers, or 386 00:15:17,420 --> 00:15:19,029 ALEXIS GOLDEN: just new parents in general? 387 00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:21,029 CHI MUMBI: Yeah, I think it helps that it isn't a 388 00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:23,469 CHI MUMBI: one-size-fits-all kind of approach and it isn't 389 00:15:23,470 --> 00:15:26,469 CHI MUMBI: manualised. So we really do look at 390 00:15:26,470 --> 00:15:27,709 CHI MUMBI: the group of women that we have and who are 391 00:15:27,710 --> 00:15:30,069 CHI MUMBI: working one-to-one and think "what will help 392 00:15:30,070 --> 00:15:32,349 CHI MUMBI: this group of women in particular?" And we do 393 00:15:32,350 --> 00:15:35,269 CHI MUMBI: focus as well on neurodivergence now, but also 394 00:15:35,270 --> 00:15:37,729 CHI MUMBI: how are we going to adjust the content to be as 395 00:15:37,730 --> 00:15:40,569 CHI MUMBI: inclusive as possible to all expectant parents. 396 00:15:40,570 --> 00:15:43,709 CHI MUMBI: I think it's also unique in that we do include 397 00:15:43,710 --> 00:15:46,769 CHI MUMBI: partners; other perinatal mental 398 00:15:46,770 --> 00:15:49,039 CHI MUMBI: health services don't always do that, but it's 399 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,339 CHI MUMBI: helpful to have a holistic idea of the family 400 00:15:51,340 --> 00:15:54,259 CHI MUMBI: but also to show how important partners are 401 00:15:54,260 --> 00:15:55,512 CHI MUMBI: for expectant mums. 402 00:15:55,513 --> 00:15:57,739 CHI MUMBI: And if they don't have that support identifying 403 00:15:57,740 --> 00:16:00,339 CHI MUMBI: what support they can have, so we can also 404 00:16:00,340 --> 00:16:02,339 CHI MUMBI: include who we call 'supporters', who could be 405 00:16:02,340 --> 00:16:05,279 CHI MUMBI: expectant parents' grandmothers or sisters or 406 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,139 CHI MUMBI: friends that can come on on the group, because 407 00:16:07,140 --> 00:16:08,859 CHI MUMBI: it's really all about community. 408 00:16:08,860 --> 00:16:11,839 CHI MUMBI: There is of course lots of conversations 409 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,839 CHI MUMBI: around the loneliness epidemic that affect all 410 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,310 CHI MUMBI: different groups of people across the UK, but 411 00:16:17,311 --> 00:16:20,639 CHI MUMBI: in particular, being a lonely mother is 412 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,139 CHI MUMBI: extremely difficult. 413 00:16:22,140 --> 00:16:24,239 CHI MUMBI: It takes a village to raise a child and that's 414 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,239 CHI MUMBI: absolutely true. Having different sources of 415 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,759 CHI MUMBI: support, both professional, but also personal, 416 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,979 CHI MUMBI: is really important for mothers. 417 00:16:30,980 --> 00:16:33,439 CHI MUMBI: And I think PiM helps provide that space so 418 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,239 CHI MUMBI: they feel that "actually, we're not alone." We 419 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,199 CHI MUMBI: had this really wonderful moment in one of the 420 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,899 CHI MUMBI: PiM groups where they all each quite naturally 421 00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:44,319 CHI MUMBI: opened up saying that they had had experiences 422 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:45,426 CHI MUMBI: of anxiety and depression. 423 00:16:47,470 --> 00:16:48,729 CHI MUMBI: I spoke to one of the mums afterwards and she 424 00:16:48,730 --> 00:16:51,429 CHI MUMBI: was talking about how the taboo was kind of 425 00:16:51,430 --> 00:16:53,349 CHI MUMBI: over and she felt like, "oh, I'm not alone 426 00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:55,889 CHI MUMBI: actually. What I'm feeling isn't strange. 427 00:16:55,890 --> 00:16:57,949 CHI MUMBI: It isn't— it doesn't make me a terrible mum. 428 00:16:57,950 --> 00:16:59,809 CHI MUMBI: It's just actually something that I'm 429 00:16:59,810 --> 00:17:02,269 CHI MUMBI: experiencing, I'm getting support with, and 430 00:17:02,270 --> 00:17:03,665 CHI MUMBI: yeah, I'm not the only person in the world 431 00:17:03,666 --> 00:17:05,129 CHI MUMBI: [experiencing this]." Which I think in the age 432 00:17:05,130 --> 00:17:07,229 CHI MUMBI: of social media, which is helpful in so many 433 00:17:07,230 --> 00:17:10,328 CHI MUMBI: ways, but I can imagine as an expectant parent 434 00:17:10,329 --> 00:17:13,429 CHI MUMBI: looking at all these seemingly perfect images 435 00:17:13,430 --> 00:17:15,786 CHI MUMBI: and videos of ideal motherhood can 436 00:17:16,810 --> 00:17:18,309 CHI MUMBI: be really, really difficult. 437 00:17:18,310 --> 00:17:20,949 CHI MUMBI: So yeah, I think we try to keep it an open, 438 00:17:20,950 --> 00:17:23,328 CHI MUMBI: inclusive space for everyone and really try to 439 00:17:23,329 --> 00:17:26,549 CHI MUMBI: think about people's individual experiences, 440 00:17:26,550 --> 00:17:29,669 CHI MUMBI: adverse experiences, as well as empowering 441 00:17:29,670 --> 00:17:31,569 CHI MUMBI: parents to feel like they can do this and 442 00:17:31,570 --> 00:17:32,889 CHI MUMBI: they're an expert on their body and their 443 00:17:32,890 --> 00:17:35,229 CHI MUMBI: babies; which I think is especially important 444 00:17:35,230 --> 00:17:37,749 CHI MUMBI: when working with Black women, because I think 445 00:17:37,750 --> 00:17:40,919 CHI MUMBI: that... there can be that idea of 446 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,199 CHI MUMBI: not being an expert in your own body and not 447 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,719 CHI MUMBI: taking ownership of your own body, which we try 448 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,695 CHI MUMBI: to promote as much as possible in PiM. 449 00:17:47,696 --> 00:17:50,489 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Chi, what are the next steps for Pregnancy 450 00:17:50,490 --> 00:17:53,329 ALEXIS GOLDEN: in Mind as a service across the UK? 451 00:17:53,330 --> 00:17:54,989 CHI MUMBI: Yes, so we're expanding. 452 00:17:54,990 --> 00:17:57,871 CHI MUMBI: So we're currently active in West Sussex [and] 453 00:17:57,872 --> 00:18:00,849 CHI MUMBI: Slough, and the hope is that we're going to 454 00:18:00,850 --> 00:18:04,089 CHI MUMBI: expand into two London boroughs as 455 00:18:04,090 --> 00:18:05,969 CHI MUMBI: well. So our reach is extending. 456 00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:08,989 CHI MUMBI: But also the NSPCC has scale-up, where we 457 00:18:08,990 --> 00:18:12,209 CHI MUMBI: will sell programmes — so programmes like 458 00:18:12,210 --> 00:18:13,609 CHI MUMBI: DART (Domestic Abuse, Recovering Together) for example, but now 459 00:18:13,610 --> 00:18:15,369 CHI MUMBI: it'll be PiM (Pregnancy in Mind) — and that 460 00:18:15,370 --> 00:18:17,109 CHI MUMBI: will mean that PiM can go to different 461 00:18:17,110 --> 00:18:19,569 CHI MUMBI: organisations, different places all over the 462 00:18:19,570 --> 00:18:21,879 CHI MUMBI: country, so it won't just be concentrated 463 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:23,699 CHI MUMBI: inside our area in London and the Southeast, 464 00:18:23,700 --> 00:18:26,439 CHI MUMBI: which is really exciting as well to see how 465 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:27,799 CHI MUMBI: it's gonna blossom and develop. 466 00:18:30,020 --> 00:18:32,239 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Is Pregnancy in Mind being delivered across 467 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,329 ALEXIS GOLDEN: the NSPCC in other areas as well? 468 00:18:35,330 --> 00:18:37,649 CHI MUMBI: So yeah, PiM is currently being delivered in 469 00:18:37,650 --> 00:18:39,709 CHI MUMBI: several different areas. 470 00:18:39,710 --> 00:18:42,109 CHI MUMBI: But if you look on the NSPCC website for 471 00:18:42,110 --> 00:18:44,549 CHI MUMBI: Pregnancy in Mind, you can check to see if it's 472 00:18:44,550 --> 00:18:46,429 CHI MUMBI: being delivered anywhere near you. 473 00:18:46,430 --> 00:18:47,729 ALEXIS GOLDEN: We'll be sure to leave a link underneath 474 00:18:47,730 --> 00:18:50,079 ALEXIS GOLDEN: the podcast so that you can see where we're 475 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:51,779 ALEXIS GOLDEN: being delivered right now. 476 00:18:51,780 --> 00:18:54,359 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Sandra, what are the interesting projects 477 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:57,179 ALEXIS GOLDEN: coming up for The Motherhood Group in 2025 478 00:18:57,180 --> 00:18:58,469 ALEXIS GOLDEN: and beyond? 479 00:18:58,470 --> 00:19:00,629 SANDRA IGWE: Yeah, so we have quite a few. 480 00:19:00,630 --> 00:19:03,069 SANDRA IGWE: We have, as I mentioned, our launch of our 481 00:19:03,070 --> 00:19:05,569 SANDRA IGWE: new digital app called Black Mums. 482 00:19:05,570 --> 00:19:08,949 SANDRA IGWE: The title literally is what it says it is. 483 00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:11,589 SANDRA IGWE: It's a safe space for Black mums to connect 484 00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:13,769 SANDRA IGWE: virtually. We often have a lot of these 485 00:19:13,770 --> 00:19:16,409 SANDRA IGWE: wonderful platforms — you know, like Peanut, 486 00:19:16,410 --> 00:19:19,289 SANDRA IGWE: Netmums, Bounty — these are wonderful online 487 00:19:19,290 --> 00:19:21,549 SANDRA IGWE: digital spaces that connects mums, but none 488 00:19:21,550 --> 00:19:24,949 SANDRA IGWE: of it really addresses the unique needs 489 00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:26,409 SANDRA IGWE: that Black women face. 490 00:19:26,410 --> 00:19:28,309 SANDRA IGWE: And so we've created our own version of that, 491 00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:30,049 SANDRA IGWE: where we can speak about all the challenges 492 00:19:30,050 --> 00:19:32,929 SANDRA IGWE: that matter to us, but also connect us with 493 00:19:32,930 --> 00:19:35,829 SANDRA IGWE: like-minded mums locally and nearby. 494 00:19:35,830 --> 00:19:38,869 SANDRA IGWE: We also have the launch of our Black Maternal 495 00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:41,989 SANDRA IGWE: Mental Health Project in collaboration with 496 00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:44,249 SANDRA IGWE: Maternal Mental Health Alliance and Centre 497 00:19:44,250 --> 00:19:45,489 SANDRA IGWE: for Mental Health. 498 00:19:45,490 --> 00:19:48,449 SANDRA IGWE: And so looking at the last eight years 499 00:19:48,450 --> 00:19:50,629 SANDRA IGWE: of our engagement, what are the common themes 500 00:19:50,630 --> 00:19:53,719 SANDRA IGWE: that are important or crucial or essential to 501 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:55,759 SANDRA IGWE: make the mental health of Black mothers 502 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,059 SANDRA IGWE: thrive. What does good spaces look like? 503 00:19:58,060 --> 00:19:59,493 SANDRA IGWE: What does good communication look like? 504 00:19:59,494 --> 00:20:02,459 SANDRA IGWE: So we'll be launching that at our Black 505 00:20:02,460 --> 00:20:04,259 SANDRA IGWE: maternal health conference in March. 506 00:20:04,260 --> 00:20:06,179 SANDRA IGWE: And then of course, September, our annual 507 00:20:06,180 --> 00:20:08,959 SANDRA IGWE: Black Maternal Mental Health Week, which Chi 508 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,379 SANDRA IGWE: spoke at last year — she was fantastic. 509 00:20:11,380 --> 00:20:14,619 SANDRA IGWE: And we look at common themes relating to, 510 00:20:14,620 --> 00:20:17,199 SANDRA IGWE: you know, helping to bridge the gap, but also 511 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:18,502 SANDRA IGWE: looking at some of the barriers that Black 512 00:20:18,503 --> 00:20:20,739 SANDRA IGWE: mother's face in mental health or maternal 513 00:20:20,740 --> 00:20:23,569 SANDRA IGWE: mental health but sometimes also wonderful 514 00:20:23,570 --> 00:20:25,469 SANDRA IGWE: solutions and recommendations for 515 00:20:25,470 --> 00:20:27,989 SANDRA IGWE: improvement; such as the role that stigma 516 00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:30,589 SANDRA IGWE: plays, how to connect with grassroots 517 00:20:30,590 --> 00:20:33,649 SANDRA IGWE: community-led organisations, the 518 00:20:33,650 --> 00:20:35,889 SANDRA IGWE: role that, you know, faith and religion, how 519 00:20:35,890 --> 00:20:38,509 SANDRA IGWE: that can be a bridge, but also a barrier in 520 00:20:38,510 --> 00:20:40,969 SANDRA IGWE: seeking support. So please do get involved in 521 00:20:40,970 --> 00:20:44,159 SANDRA IGWE: our daily webinars during that week as well. 522 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:45,879 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Sounds like there's a lot of things coming 523 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:46,880 ALEXIS GOLDEN: up. 524 00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:49,829 ALEXIS GOLDEN: I've run out of questions, but I'm just 525 00:20:49,830 --> 00:20:51,429 ALEXIS GOLDEN: coming up with this one off the cuff. 526 00:20:51,430 --> 00:20:54,189 ALEXIS GOLDEN: If either of you had to give three big 527 00:20:54,190 --> 00:20:57,149 ALEXIS GOLDEN: takeaways to our listeners today, what 528 00:20:57,150 --> 00:20:58,199 ALEXIS GOLDEN: would they be? 529 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,359 SANDRA IGWE: I'd say one: if you are a professional 530 00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,519 SANDRA IGWE: working with expectant parents that 531 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,959 SANDRA IGWE: are from Black or Brown communities, really, 532 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:08,999 SANDRA IGWE: as I mentioned, listen; it sounds so simple, 533 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,659 SANDRA IGWE: but it's very, very rarely done quite well. 534 00:21:11,660 --> 00:21:14,439 SANDRA IGWE: So actively listen to all the concerns, but 535 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,859 SANDRA IGWE: also recognise again that some of these 536 00:21:16,860 --> 00:21:19,459 SANDRA IGWE: barriers that might not be relevant to you, 537 00:21:19,460 --> 00:21:22,599 SANDRA IGWE: they are really important for a mother that 538 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,719 SANDRA IGWE: wants to receive good quality, adequate 539 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,371 SANDRA IGWE: care. Then make a mother feel safe. 540 00:21:28,372 --> 00:21:31,509 SANDRA IGWE: So provide safe spaces, bring on diverse 541 00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:34,889 SANDRA IGWE: staff to support them, make sure that you're 542 00:21:34,890 --> 00:21:37,929 SANDRA IGWE: able to offer support or care that helps 543 00:21:37,930 --> 00:21:40,989 SANDRA IGWE: to bridge the traditional health services 544 00:21:40,990 --> 00:21:42,580 SANDRA IGWE: by providing those relevant 545 00:21:44,110 --> 00:21:46,109 SANDRA IGWE: support networks and culturally relevant 546 00:21:46,110 --> 00:21:47,902 SANDRA IGWE: resources so that a mother can receive that 547 00:21:47,903 --> 00:21:49,149 SANDRA IGWE: as well. 548 00:21:49,150 --> 00:21:50,887 SANDRA IGWE: And then finally, three: recognise 549 00:21:52,340 --> 00:21:55,279 SANDRA IGWE: that not everybody has the right language to 550 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,499 SANDRA IGWE: articulate that they are struggling with 551 00:21:57,500 --> 00:21:58,840 SANDRA IGWE: perinatal mental health issues. 552 00:21:58,841 --> 00:22:00,839 SANDRA IGWE: In some languages and some cultures, there is 553 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,539 SANDRA IGWE: no word for perinatal mental health or 554 00:22:03,540 --> 00:22:04,859 SANDRA IGWE: postpartum depression. 555 00:22:04,860 --> 00:22:07,639 SANDRA IGWE: And so being open to exploring what that 556 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:09,619 SANDRA IGWE: might look like for each community and what 557 00:22:09,620 --> 00:22:10,959 SANDRA IGWE: might be the better word. 558 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,379 SANDRA IGWE: Is it wellbeing? Is it care? 559 00:22:13,380 --> 00:22:14,839 SANDRA IGWE: How do you feel? 560 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,079 SANDRA IGWE: Just make sure that you are looking at that 561 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,499 SANDRA IGWE: person as an individual and not seeing them 562 00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:21,329 SANDRA IGWE: as a monolithic group. 563 00:22:21,330 --> 00:22:23,829 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Wonderful, thank you so much, Sandra. 564 00:22:23,830 --> 00:22:25,639 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Chi, anything to add? 565 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,079 CHI MUMBI: I absolutely agree with Sandra. 566 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,179 CHI MUMBI: I would say that number one for professionals 567 00:22:30,180 --> 00:22:33,199 CHI MUMBI: for me would be to be curious and to continue 568 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,659 CHI MUMBI: to be curious about expectant mothers' 569 00:22:35,660 --> 00:22:38,719 CHI MUMBI: experiences, and really 570 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,179 CHI MUMBI: taking a non-judgmental stance. 571 00:22:40,180 --> 00:22:43,159 CHI MUMBI: So when you're hearing a woman 572 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,679 CHI MUMBI: talk about her difficulties, or you feel like 573 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,419 CHI MUMBI: something else is going on, instead of becoming 574 00:22:47,420 --> 00:22:49,379 CHI MUMBI: judgmental, really trying to unpick that with 575 00:22:49,380 --> 00:22:52,559 CHI MUMBI: her in a caring, thoughtful way that 576 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,819 CHI MUMBI: will not make her turn away and make her feel 577 00:22:54,820 --> 00:22:56,949 CHI MUMBI: like, "I'm feeling judged, I need to leave", 578 00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:59,109 CHI MUMBI: and not actually being able to get that support 579 00:22:59,110 --> 00:23:01,689 CHI MUMBI: later on. I would say number two is recognise 580 00:23:01,690 --> 00:23:03,289 CHI MUMBI: the importance of community. 581 00:23:03,290 --> 00:23:04,989 CHI MUMBI: I mean as Sandra was talking about The 582 00:23:04,990 --> 00:23:06,669 CHI MUMBI: Motherhood Group, I mean it's so amazing — the 583 00:23:06,670 --> 00:23:08,809 CHI MUMBI: power of community and having other people 584 00:23:08,810 --> 00:23:11,709 CHI MUMBI: around you who maybe won't have exactly the 585 00:23:11,710 --> 00:23:14,749 CHI MUMBI: same experiences as you but will understand and 586 00:23:14,750 --> 00:23:17,169 CHI MUMBI: can listen to you and can help care for you. 587 00:23:17,170 --> 00:23:18,569 CHI MUMBI: I think recognising the importance of 588 00:23:18,570 --> 00:23:21,269 CHI MUMBI: community, and as a professional asking 589 00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:23,889 CHI MUMBI: parents, "okay, what support do you have?" And 590 00:23:23,890 --> 00:23:25,289 CHI MUMBI: if they don't have any support and they're 591 00:23:25,290 --> 00:23:27,709 CHI MUMBI: lonely, what support can we provide or can we 592 00:23:27,710 --> 00:23:30,149 CHI MUMBI: help you with? And I do understand the 593 00:23:30,150 --> 00:23:33,069 CHI MUMBI: pressures on NHS staff and all 594 00:23:33,070 --> 00:23:36,049 CHI MUMBI: over the caring sector, but I think 595 00:23:36,050 --> 00:23:38,849 CHI MUMBI: it is really important to recognise and to 596 00:23:38,850 --> 00:23:41,849 CHI MUMBI: identify lonely mums and ways that you 597 00:23:41,850 --> 00:23:45,069 CHI MUMBI: can support them. And I would say third: to 598 00:23:45,070 --> 00:23:47,309 CHI MUMBI: not lose sight of the mental health of the 599 00:23:47,310 --> 00:23:48,949 CHI MUMBI: infant as well. 600 00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:50,829 CHI MUMBI: I know the concept of... 601 00:23:50,830 --> 00:23:53,529 CHI MUMBI: To me anyway, the concept of pregnancy is quite 602 00:23:53,530 --> 00:23:55,269 CHI MUMBI: abstract and when we're working with 603 00:23:55,270 --> 00:23:57,609 CHI MUMBI: participants, we do a lot of connecting to your 604 00:23:57,610 --> 00:23:59,129 CHI MUMBI: baby exercises. 605 00:23:59,130 --> 00:24:00,669 CHI MUMBI: And for some parents, it's the first time they 606 00:24:00,670 --> 00:24:03,229 CHI MUMBI: really thought about questions like, "what 607 00:24:03,230 --> 00:24:05,049 CHI MUMBI: music do you think your baby would like?" Or 608 00:24:05,050 --> 00:24:07,629 CHI MUMBI: "what food you think you baby would enjoy?" And 609 00:24:07,630 --> 00:24:09,389 CHI MUMBI: they are quite abstract questions but it does 610 00:24:09,390 --> 00:24:11,689 CHI MUMBI: help you connect more with your baby. 611 00:24:11,690 --> 00:24:13,949 CHI MUMBI: The purpose of those connecting to you baby 612 00:24:13,950 --> 00:24:16,749 CHI MUMBI: exercises is so that we're thinking about the 613 00:24:16,750 --> 00:24:18,549 CHI MUMBI: baby and bringing the baby into the room, but 614 00:24:18,550 --> 00:24:20,229 CHI MUMBI: also thinking about the potential mental health 615 00:24:20,230 --> 00:24:23,639 CHI MUMBI: of the baby and linking the mental health of 616 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,319 CHI MUMBI: the parents to their child as well. 617 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,919 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Wonderful. Well, thank you both for those 618 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,459 ALEXIS GOLDEN: key takeaways. I think you've given our 619 00:24:30,460 --> 00:24:33,039 ALEXIS GOLDEN: listeners a lot to take in. 620 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,759 ALEXIS GOLDEN: I'll close here, but I just wanted to say a 621 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,999 ALEXIS GOLDEN: big thank you to both Chi and Sandra for 622 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,619 ALEXIS GOLDEN: your time today and for sharing your 623 00:24:39,620 --> 00:24:42,839 ALEXIS GOLDEN: experiences. We have a lot of information 624 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,719 ALEXIS GOLDEN: to share with our audience. 625 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,459 ALEXIS GOLDEN: If you want to learn more about Pregnancy 626 00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:49,959 ALEXIS GOLDEN: in Mind or The Motherhood Group, we will be 627 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,565 ALEXIS GOLDEN: sure to put those in our podcast notes. 628 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:55,979 ALEXIS GOLDEN: Chi and Sandra, thank you so much for your 629 00:24:55,980 --> 00:24:56,969 ALEXIS GOLDEN: time. 630 00:24:56,970 --> 00:24:58,329 CHI MUMBI: Thank you so much. 631 00:24:58,330 --> 00:24:59,790 SANDRA IGWE: Thank you for having us. Thank You. 632 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,299 OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning 633 00:25:06,300 --> 00:25:07,679 OUTRO: Podcast. 634 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,199 OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content 635 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,959 OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and 636 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,339 OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing. 637 00:25:15,340 --> 00:25:17,339 OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current 638 00:25:17,340 --> 00:25:19,639 OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training, 639 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,559 OUTRO: information or resources, 640 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,279 OUTRO: please visit our website for professionals at 641 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,731 OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.