1 00:00:09,810 --> 00:00:10,140 Andy Polaine: Hello. 2 00:00:10,260 --> 00:00:13,650 Welcome to Power 10, a show about design operating at many levels 3 00:00:13,650 --> 00:00:16,770 of zoom from thoughtful detail through to transformation in 4 00:00:16,770 --> 00:00:19,050 organizations, society, and the world. 5 00:00:19,335 --> 00:00:20,595 My name is Andy Pauline. 6 00:00:20,655 --> 00:00:22,500 I'm a design leadership coach designer. 7 00:00:23,185 --> 00:00:24,505 Educator and writer. 8 00:00:25,045 --> 00:00:26,425 My guest today is Lisa 9 00:00:26,997 --> 00:00:28,715 D Dance, an experienced 10 00:00:28,765 --> 00:00:28,915 Andy Polaine: UX 11 00:00:28,915 --> 00:00:30,745 researcher whose 10 plus years 12 00:00:30,745 --> 00:00:31,795 Andy Polaine: of work has spanned. 13 00:00:32,265 --> 00:00:36,195 UX research and strategy to interactive prototyping and usability testing. 14 00:00:36,855 --> 00:00:40,245 She has created award-winning work for enterprise organizations and also 15 00:00:40,245 --> 00:00:43,485 helps small to mid-size businesses improve their websites and apps, so 16 00:00:43,485 --> 00:00:45,825 they do not frustrate or harm customers. 17 00:00:46,394 --> 00:00:50,445 She's a contributor to CMS Wire and frequent public speaker on topics 18 00:00:50,445 --> 00:00:54,375 related to user experience, customer experiences, ethical research and design 19 00:00:54,375 --> 00:00:57,675 and technologies impact on people, which also have written a book called 20 00:00:57,675 --> 00:00:59,504 Today is the Perfect Day to Improve. 21 00:00:59,580 --> 00:01:00,660 Customer experience. 22 00:01:01,140 --> 00:01:02,879 Lisa, welcome to Power of 10. 23 00:01:03,090 --> 00:01:03,810 Lisa Dance: Thank you, Andy. 24 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,140 Andy Polaine: Oh, I think I found you via Indie Young, actually, who mentioned 25 00:01:07,140 --> 00:01:09,060 you, uh, on the podcast I did with her. 26 00:01:09,630 --> 00:01:12,300 Um, so tell us a little bit, uh, about yourself and your 27 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:13,560 journey to where you are now. 28 00:01:13,890 --> 00:01:14,580 Lisa Dance: Certainly. 29 00:01:14,580 --> 00:01:16,530 So, uh, you gave me such a great intro. 30 00:01:16,855 --> 00:01:22,165 But, um, my path to user experience started when I was nine years old 31 00:01:22,345 --> 00:01:26,125 and I told my mom I wouldn't shop at a particular store anymore because 32 00:01:26,125 --> 00:01:27,925 of how they treated their customers. 33 00:01:28,315 --> 00:01:31,585 And so ever since that time, I was always studying. 34 00:01:31,915 --> 00:01:33,147 Um, now that I know. 35 00:01:33,585 --> 00:01:38,235 Uh, customer interactions, but I was studying what was going on and I was 36 00:01:38,235 --> 00:01:42,915 trying to strategize ways to improve it for both the customer and for the 37 00:01:42,915 --> 00:01:48,675 business, because even at nine, I knew both of them needed to get what they, uh. 38 00:01:48,705 --> 00:01:50,355 What they wanted to achieve. 39 00:01:50,835 --> 00:01:54,435 Um, and so, um, I was always just studying that. 40 00:01:54,765 --> 00:01:58,875 And, um, when I graduated from college, like user experience wasn't 41 00:01:58,875 --> 00:02:02,175 a thing, or at least it wasn't any a thing that I knew about. 42 00:02:02,715 --> 00:02:07,039 And, um, I. So I went out in the world, you know, um, at first 43 00:02:07,039 --> 00:02:08,419 I was supposed to be a lawyer. 44 00:02:08,419 --> 00:02:12,890 I went to law school orientation, uh, for a week and said, I 45 00:02:12,890 --> 00:02:14,300 do not wanna be a lawyer. 46 00:02:14,570 --> 00:02:18,050 And so I'm out here in the world now trying to figure out, okay, so 47 00:02:18,050 --> 00:02:21,255 what career I'm going to, you know, I. What's my career gonna be like? 48 00:02:21,734 --> 00:02:25,365 And so I did struggle with that a bit, but I started getting in roles where 49 00:02:25,365 --> 00:02:27,855 I was sort of managing like programs. 50 00:02:27,855 --> 00:02:31,725 So I mortgaged like a customer retention program for a mortgage company. 51 00:02:31,905 --> 00:02:31,995 Mm-hmm. 52 00:02:32,235 --> 00:02:36,645 And I worked in like HR on the side of like administering. 53 00:02:36,975 --> 00:02:42,885 Pension benefits, but in those roles, I was always trying to advocate for the 54 00:02:42,885 --> 00:02:48,195 customer, but also finding ways that would, that would be, that would be a, 55 00:02:48,615 --> 00:02:51,135 a, a benefit to the business, right. 56 00:02:51,135 --> 00:02:56,475 And then parts of those roles also then brought in some, a technology piece to it. 57 00:02:56,834 --> 00:03:01,605 And so I was still kind of in this path of trying to, you know, prove things 58 00:03:01,605 --> 00:03:03,375 for both businesses and customers. 59 00:03:03,734 --> 00:03:04,725 Uh, but. 60 00:03:04,990 --> 00:03:10,300 On my second layoff, I, I said, I wanna do something in that area, you 61 00:03:10,300 --> 00:03:14,350 know, and I thought it was customer experience at the time, but, um, in 62 00:03:14,350 --> 00:03:18,040 researching about customer experiences and trying to get more education, I found 63 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,590 user experience research and design. 64 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,040 And that was like, I took a course and it was like, ding, ding, ding. 65 00:03:24,070 --> 00:03:24,730 I'm home. 66 00:03:24,730 --> 00:03:25,120 Right? 67 00:03:25,420 --> 00:03:30,310 'cause not only was I able to do what I had was doing when I was nine, which was 68 00:03:30,310 --> 00:03:34,570 like sort of identifying these problems, but also like strategizing how to. 69 00:03:34,965 --> 00:03:36,195 You know, resolve them. 70 00:03:36,195 --> 00:03:36,525 Right? 71 00:03:36,525 --> 00:03:40,785 And so that was kinda like a full circle moment, uh, for me with that. 72 00:03:41,355 --> 00:03:43,185 And so that's sort of like my path. 73 00:03:43,274 --> 00:03:46,905 Andy Polaine: So you found your, you found your people and your in that world. 74 00:03:46,905 --> 00:03:46,995 Yes. 75 00:03:47,114 --> 00:03:47,475 Yeah. 76 00:03:47,685 --> 00:03:47,864 Yeah. 77 00:03:47,864 --> 00:03:49,454 It helps quite a lot of people actually. 78 00:03:49,454 --> 00:03:53,355 I've, I've noticed, you know, and I mean, people know me for service design though. 79 00:03:53,355 --> 00:03:56,864 I've got a sort of background in, uh, interaction design and, and digital 80 00:03:56,864 --> 00:03:58,454 from, from before they had names. 81 00:03:58,935 --> 00:03:59,295 Um. 82 00:03:59,945 --> 00:04:03,215 And, you know, there's often that thing where people say, and then I discovered 83 00:04:03,215 --> 00:04:08,255 this thing and just the light bulbs went off and, and here I, I realized 84 00:04:08,255 --> 00:04:11,525 there's this, the way I think around about the world, other people do, and 85 00:04:11,525 --> 00:04:14,135 there's a whole methodology about it and there's stuff I can learn about it. 86 00:04:14,225 --> 00:04:17,105 Um, and, and it's a, it's always a nice moment when people 87 00:04:17,105 --> 00:04:19,115 have that, and particularly if they've turned it into their. 88 00:04:19,390 --> 00:04:19,870 Career. 89 00:04:20,890 --> 00:04:24,100 Um, there's a very cute picture of you in the introduction actually 90 00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:26,740 of, of you when you're nine years old in, in the book, right? 91 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:27,040 Yes. 92 00:04:28,270 --> 00:04:32,290 Looking, not unhappy with customer service, but, but that is the, uh, 93 00:04:32,325 --> 00:04:33,910 the, the introduction to the book. 94 00:04:34,630 --> 00:04:38,710 So, um, tell me, tell us a little about the book and, and, you know, I always 95 00:04:38,710 --> 00:04:41,830 think people write a book because there's a, a niche they want to scratch, uh, of 96 00:04:41,830 --> 00:04:45,250 their own, um, as well as maybe seeing there's nothing out there like this. 97 00:04:45,250 --> 00:04:48,220 So, uh, why the book in the first place? 98 00:04:48,220 --> 00:04:48,280 I. 99 00:04:49,605 --> 00:04:54,795 Lisa Dance: Well, certainly it, uh, I guess about six or seven years ago 100 00:04:55,125 --> 00:05:00,315 I started seeing that, in my opinion, customer experiences were just 101 00:05:00,315 --> 00:05:03,255 getting, uh, increasingly worse, right? 102 00:05:03,345 --> 00:05:03,435 Mm-hmm. 103 00:05:03,735 --> 00:05:09,015 And how I showed up in my life was that I would have my to-do list of things 104 00:05:09,015 --> 00:05:10,580 that I needed to accomplish, but. 105 00:05:11,219 --> 00:05:13,770 All of a sudden it would be like I couldn't get things off my 106 00:05:13,770 --> 00:05:15,750 list no matter how hard I tried. 107 00:05:15,810 --> 00:05:21,450 And it was always something related to my interaction with like a company or some 108 00:05:21,510 --> 00:05:26,070 other organization, and I couldn't get the issue resolved, at least not quickly. 109 00:05:26,070 --> 00:05:26,430 Right. 110 00:05:26,669 --> 00:05:29,849 It was either, you know, like there's some information that's wrong, I 111 00:05:29,849 --> 00:05:31,830 need to get a question answered. 112 00:05:32,190 --> 00:05:35,310 Um, there's, you know, something hasn't been delivered. 113 00:05:35,580 --> 00:05:37,080 This website's not working. 114 00:05:37,085 --> 00:05:37,565 It was always. 115 00:05:37,790 --> 00:05:38,390 Something. 116 00:05:38,390 --> 00:05:38,750 Right? 117 00:05:38,810 --> 00:05:42,350 And it was, it's getting to be really frustrating, especially 118 00:05:42,350 --> 00:05:44,510 when they started to overlap. 119 00:05:44,510 --> 00:05:46,970 So it wasn't just like one issue on the list. 120 00:05:46,970 --> 00:05:48,410 You know, you'd have two or three. 121 00:05:48,410 --> 00:05:51,800 And so imagine how frustrated it is when you're just trying to move 122 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:53,750 on with your life and you can't. 123 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,570 And so as I started talking to first like family and friends and they 124 00:05:58,570 --> 00:06:01,750 started, they were having their own stories as well, and I'm like, it's 125 00:06:01,750 --> 00:06:03,430 something here to this, you know? 126 00:06:03,430 --> 00:06:09,520 And the stories started getting increasingly worse and I felt like out 127 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:14,740 in the marketplace, maybe people were talking, okay, people would complain 128 00:06:14,740 --> 00:06:19,030 about a, you know, a particular, you know, issue or story they had, 129 00:06:19,030 --> 00:06:22,810 but like, is there this underlying pattern of what's going on with this? 130 00:06:23,190 --> 00:06:24,690 And, um. 131 00:06:25,725 --> 00:06:29,685 And as I, I started collecting more stories and I said, I started seeing, 132 00:06:29,715 --> 00:06:33,885 okay, there is a pattern and it's, and it's a bit nuanced and it's related to 133 00:06:33,885 --> 00:06:38,355 technology too, or at least the piece that I wanted to sort of hone in on, you know, 134 00:06:38,355 --> 00:06:41,235 with my user experience, um, background. 135 00:06:41,595 --> 00:06:45,280 Um, I. And it was that piece of like that sometimes technology is really 136 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:50,380 wonderful and great, but sometime it actually just exacerbates problems, you 137 00:06:50,380 --> 00:06:52,960 know, of trying to get things resolved. 138 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,710 And so that's sort of like the itch that I wanted to scratch is 139 00:06:56,710 --> 00:07:00,760 to like really hone in on that because I also truly believe that. 140 00:07:01,460 --> 00:07:06,409 I don't think that a lot of leaders in organizations understand how bad 141 00:07:06,469 --> 00:07:08,659 their worst customer experience is. 142 00:07:08,900 --> 00:07:13,280 Like that it is so bad that they would not want their names associated with it. 143 00:07:13,669 --> 00:07:19,190 And I don't think that they, you know, they get that, that, um, that site into 144 00:07:19,190 --> 00:07:23,575 that, you know, to really understand like, we have to make better decisions. 145 00:07:24,570 --> 00:07:28,140 Andy Polaine: Yeah, there's an old, um, video, a guy called 146 00:07:28,210 --> 00:07:29,400 Dave McQuillen is giving 147 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:30,000 Andy Polaine: a presentation. 148 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,250 He used to around customer experience for Credit Suisse 149 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:34,109 and uh, there's a bit anywhere. 150 00:07:34,109 --> 00:07:38,400 He talks about the fact he had five PhDs in the room and he handed them 151 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,140 their credit card application form. 152 00:07:40,140 --> 00:07:42,539 So can fill this in and none of them could do it. 153 00:07:42,914 --> 00:07:45,525 And you know, because obviously they get it just given to 154 00:07:45,525 --> 00:07:46,695 them automatically, right. 155 00:07:46,695 --> 00:07:49,875 For about being employees at the place and, and it was kind of one of those, 156 00:07:49,905 --> 00:07:54,555 those mismatches between, um, you know, what people think, you know, the 157 00:07:54,555 --> 00:07:58,305 organization is actually doing and, and what the actual experience of it is. 158 00:07:59,414 --> 00:07:59,534 Right. 159 00:07:59,745 --> 00:08:04,515 So the structure of the book is kind of, um, well it's kind of 160 00:08:04,575 --> 00:08:06,075 case study after case study of. 161 00:08:07,230 --> 00:08:11,370 Like, just really, really face palming, um, customer exper, 162 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:13,080 bad customer experiences mostly. 163 00:08:13,830 --> 00:08:18,659 Um, would you say there is a kind of, uh, any sort of patterns to the 164 00:08:18,659 --> 00:08:23,460 structure or, or kind of, uh, flow through it that you started to put 165 00:08:23,460 --> 00:08:25,050 together as you, as you did the book? 166 00:08:25,915 --> 00:08:28,825 Lisa Dance: Well, certainly, so one big piece of the book is 167 00:08:28,825 --> 00:08:31,225 that the stories are illustrated. 168 00:08:31,225 --> 00:08:36,085 So I got this wonderful illustrator, Antonio Meza, and so he was able to 169 00:08:36,085 --> 00:08:40,284 illustrate this, you know, ridiculous story that took me maybe six pages to 170 00:08:40,284 --> 00:08:45,415 write into like a one page illustration so you could, one, understand the 171 00:08:45,415 --> 00:08:49,765 customer's context, what happened, the emotions that were, that were going on 172 00:08:49,765 --> 00:08:54,715 with it, and the, and sort of the start to see the impact as well as the, um. 173 00:08:54,925 --> 00:08:57,805 What resolution or if there was a resolution, right? 174 00:08:58,135 --> 00:09:02,185 So I'm introducing the, uh, what happened in an illustrated story. 175 00:09:02,305 --> 00:09:08,545 Then I'm breaking down, um, within, uh, the book, uh, talking 176 00:09:08,545 --> 00:09:11,995 about unpaid customer labor and actually talking about what 177 00:09:12,084 --> 00:09:15,265 characteristics and organizations, uh. 178 00:09:15,645 --> 00:09:18,464 Force customers to pay unpaid customer labor. 179 00:09:18,464 --> 00:09:24,105 So unpaid customer labor's that, uh, amount unwilling amount of time, money 180 00:09:24,105 --> 00:09:28,814 and stress that you have to put in to try to get, you know, the pro product that 181 00:09:28,814 --> 00:09:33,615 you purchased or, uh, get it delivered or get a issued resolved around it. 182 00:09:33,615 --> 00:09:33,975 Right? 183 00:09:34,125 --> 00:09:36,135 And so I'm outlining like. 184 00:09:36,535 --> 00:09:40,285 What characteristics of organizations require you to 185 00:09:40,285 --> 00:09:42,475 put in unpaid customer labor? 186 00:09:42,865 --> 00:09:46,555 Um, so like, examples of that are organizations that have limited 187 00:09:46,555 --> 00:09:48,865 customer ser service hours, right? 188 00:09:48,865 --> 00:09:53,635 They're selling to you 24 hours a day, but then you can't talk to them, but 189 00:09:53,635 --> 00:09:56,215 at really narrow times to get, uh. 190 00:09:56,525 --> 00:09:59,225 A really serious issue, invol, um, resolved. 191 00:09:59,525 --> 00:10:06,185 So I'm outlining those types of issues for each story, but then I'm also, um, having 192 00:10:06,215 --> 00:10:11,405 a breakdown of the cost, both for the, both for the customer and for the, um. 193 00:10:11,655 --> 00:10:12,495 The company. 194 00:10:12,944 --> 00:10:16,785 And I think that's a really important piece because often the reframe is 195 00:10:16,785 --> 00:10:21,375 when you talk about customer, um, experience issues, people will say, 196 00:10:21,375 --> 00:10:25,935 well, you know, they're making a business decision to, uh, protect 197 00:10:25,935 --> 00:10:28,245 shareholder value and reduce costs. 198 00:10:28,755 --> 00:10:30,105 And what I really believe is. 199 00:10:30,490 --> 00:10:34,480 That I don't think that, uh, some of these companies are actually counting 200 00:10:34,510 --> 00:10:37,570 all the cost of bad customer experiences. 201 00:10:37,660 --> 00:10:40,840 And if they really counted all of those costs, they might, would make 202 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,120 different decisions, uh, within that. 203 00:10:43,180 --> 00:10:48,430 And so that, I wanted to break that down, um, as well, because, you know, 204 00:10:48,430 --> 00:10:50,740 in some of these situations where, um. 205 00:10:51,454 --> 00:10:55,564 The story is in the book where a customer talked with six employees. 206 00:10:55,775 --> 00:10:58,415 Well, how much lost productivity is that? 207 00:10:58,474 --> 00:10:58,865 You know? 208 00:10:58,865 --> 00:10:58,925 Yeah. 209 00:10:58,925 --> 00:11:03,635 And then, um, there are other issues, you know, uh, around customer 210 00:11:03,635 --> 00:11:05,824 rage and anger that you know. 211 00:11:07,215 --> 00:11:13,155 Make it, um, so that far as employees that this makes their job satisfaction 212 00:11:13,395 --> 00:11:18,465 much less and there's a lot of turnover within front facing, um, companies. 213 00:11:18,465 --> 00:11:22,095 So then are you adding up all the cost of having to so much 214 00:11:22,095 --> 00:11:24,255 turnover and having to try to. 215 00:11:24,945 --> 00:11:29,145 You know, increased, um, satisfaction to the employees that are there. 216 00:11:29,145 --> 00:11:33,255 Like there's a cascading cost to this that I just don't feel like that all 217 00:11:33,315 --> 00:11:36,915 organizations are calculating around. 218 00:11:37,695 --> 00:11:39,885 Uh, customer experience being, uh, bad. 219 00:11:40,455 --> 00:11:41,445 Andy Polaine: Yeah, there's a very big number. 220 00:11:41,445 --> 00:11:42,435 I'm looking at it now. 221 00:11:43,485 --> 00:11:46,454 I'm trying to work out is, is this trillions then that we're talking 222 00:11:46,454 --> 00:11:50,415 here, that you have in the revenue loss under the counting of the costs? 223 00:11:50,625 --> 00:11:50,895 Uh, 224 00:11:51,255 --> 00:11:52,814 Lisa Dance: um, trillions? 225 00:11:52,814 --> 00:11:53,295 Yes. 226 00:11:53,834 --> 00:11:56,325 Andy Polaine: Yeah, it's like 887 trillion. 227 00:11:56,805 --> 00:11:57,435 I mean, it's a lot. 228 00:11:58,454 --> 00:12:01,574 It goes on into the billions right, of a revenue loss. 229 00:12:01,724 --> 00:12:03,015 Where did that number come from? 230 00:12:04,155 --> 00:12:08,355 Lisa Dance: That came from this, this great survey called What? 231 00:12:09,105 --> 00:12:13,905 Survey and study called, uh, the National Customer Rage, uh, survey 232 00:12:14,355 --> 00:12:20,775 and actually has its origins from a study done by the White House in 1976. 233 00:12:21,015 --> 00:12:21,075 Wow. 234 00:12:21,555 --> 00:12:26,475 And so the White House did this study in 1976 on customer complaints and 235 00:12:26,475 --> 00:12:31,155 then, uh, as company, uh, in 2003, uh. 236 00:12:31,725 --> 00:12:37,215 We, uh, started the survey and, you know, used, um, some of the questions. 237 00:12:37,215 --> 00:12:41,805 And so since then they've done, um, 10 iterations of it and in 238 00:12:41,835 --> 00:12:45,675 my book, and that number is from the 2023, uh, version of it. 239 00:12:45,915 --> 00:12:50,415 So they can say, when they say that customer experiences, um. 240 00:12:50,925 --> 00:12:55,965 Problems are at an all time high and that they more than doubled in 1976. 241 00:12:55,995 --> 00:12:58,845 You know, they have that, you know, they have the data. 242 00:12:59,205 --> 00:13:02,115 Andy Polaine: I love, well, I love, and I don't love that there's a 243 00:13:02,115 --> 00:13:04,605 customer rage index, uh, survey. 244 00:13:05,685 --> 00:13:05,775 Lisa Dance: Yeah. 245 00:13:06,195 --> 00:13:07,275 It's not just complaints, 246 00:13:07,275 --> 00:13:08,025 Andy Polaine: but rage. 247 00:13:08,085 --> 00:13:10,515 I think a lot of people kind of, uh, can relate to that. 248 00:13:11,535 --> 00:13:12,045 Lisa Dance: Yes. 249 00:13:12,045 --> 00:13:13,215 And it's, um. 250 00:13:14,145 --> 00:13:16,605 It's awful for the customers involved. 251 00:13:16,635 --> 00:13:19,875 It's awful for the employees that are experiencing it. 252 00:13:19,875 --> 00:13:24,795 And oftentimes the employees who are expen experiencing it have absolutely 253 00:13:24,795 --> 00:13:28,725 nothing to do with the decisions that the customer is angry about. 254 00:13:28,755 --> 00:13:34,694 But they are the ones that get, um, uh, unfortunately the, the, 255 00:13:34,694 --> 00:13:36,975 um, the rage and the anger. 256 00:13:37,965 --> 00:13:38,925 Andy Polaine: Tell us about Peggy. 257 00:13:39,824 --> 00:13:44,175 You have this figure, you have this figure, Peggy, in your, in your book. 258 00:13:44,175 --> 00:13:44,775 Lisa Dance: Yes. 259 00:13:44,985 --> 00:13:50,595 Um, so Peggy is this bright light within organizations that like if a customer 260 00:13:50,595 --> 00:13:55,755 is trying to get a problem resolved, if you are lucky enough to stumble on and. 261 00:13:56,050 --> 00:13:57,160 Talk to Peggy. 262 00:13:57,460 --> 00:14:04,690 She's that one or two, uh, one or two in, uh, employees who either have been there 263 00:14:04,690 --> 00:14:08,890 that long, that they just have all of the, you know, the in institutional knowledge, 264 00:14:08,890 --> 00:14:14,860 they know all the, the mergers, the, uh, system changes, all the different policies 265 00:14:14,860 --> 00:14:18,610 and able to actually help you, right? 266 00:14:18,970 --> 00:14:22,780 That you're not talking to someone who don't, who doesn't even. 267 00:14:23,805 --> 00:14:27,105 A lot of times you talk to employees and they might not even 268 00:14:27,105 --> 00:14:28,725 recognize that it is an issue. 269 00:14:28,725 --> 00:14:32,085 You have to like prove to them that it's an issue. 270 00:14:32,415 --> 00:14:37,035 Peggy actually understands that and, and knows how to solve it, right? 271 00:14:37,395 --> 00:14:39,855 Um, and so Peggy can be that. 272 00:14:39,905 --> 00:14:45,935 You know that one long-term employee, but also Peggy sometimes is a newer employee, 273 00:14:45,935 --> 00:14:50,704 but just have taken so much initiative beyond the training and the process 274 00:14:50,704 --> 00:14:56,915 and procedures to really understand, uh, what problems are and to collect 275 00:14:56,915 --> 00:15:00,334 knowledge and re and have relationships throughout the company to actually 276 00:15:00,334 --> 00:15:02,314 be able to solve customers problems. 277 00:15:02,645 --> 00:15:08,085 So if you are lucky enough to get a. You are very lucky 'cause your, you know, 278 00:15:08,085 --> 00:15:12,555 your problem's going to be solved, but a lot of times there isn't a Peggy and 279 00:15:12,555 --> 00:15:15,435 you are struggling with employees who. 280 00:15:16,875 --> 00:15:20,715 Who can't explain, uh, what the problem is. 281 00:15:20,715 --> 00:15:22,875 They can't explain what caused it. 282 00:15:23,295 --> 00:15:25,485 Uh, they don't know how to solve it. 283 00:15:25,814 --> 00:15:29,385 And it's like I was mentioning before, sometimes you have to convince them 284 00:15:29,385 --> 00:15:31,455 that there is actually a problem, right? 285 00:15:31,455 --> 00:15:31,515 Yeah. 286 00:15:31,515 --> 00:15:33,585 Because they'll say things like, well, my system says. 287 00:15:34,420 --> 00:15:39,250 But your system is not the golden rule to everything. 288 00:15:39,310 --> 00:15:39,370 Yeah. 289 00:15:39,370 --> 00:15:43,930 Your system gets, gets is no is made by people and that people, you 290 00:15:43,930 --> 00:15:45,790 know, don't always get it right. 291 00:15:46,690 --> 00:15:50,140 Andy Polaine: There's a thing I do in, um, you know, when I'm teaching service 292 00:15:50,140 --> 00:15:53,380 design or teaching that, that kind of journey flow thing and saying, you know, 293 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,250 there's, there's often a flow chart and it's kinda boxes and arrows, right? 294 00:15:57,250 --> 00:16:01,570 And it says something like, you know, um, Jeff uh, pays his bill. 295 00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:05,490 Arrow, uh, membership details are updated. 296 00:16:05,610 --> 00:16:08,430 And I'm like, yeah, but what happens when Jeff pays his bill 297 00:16:08,430 --> 00:16:11,430 and his membership details and what happens when the arrow breaks? 298 00:16:11,430 --> 00:16:14,880 'cause the arrow on those diagrams is very innocuous, you know, but 299 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,070 there's this assumption that this whole kind of infrastructure is 300 00:16:17,070 --> 00:16:19,050 actually working to enable that. 301 00:16:19,050 --> 00:16:20,130 And then Jeff rings up and. 302 00:16:21,125 --> 00:16:24,545 You know, and says, uh, to, I dunno, the sports club and says, 303 00:16:24,605 --> 00:16:26,555 um, you know, but I paid my bill. 304 00:16:26,555 --> 00:16:28,834 And they say, yeah, but we haven't seen it. 305 00:16:29,015 --> 00:16:30,545 And so it's gone outta my bank account. 306 00:16:30,574 --> 00:16:33,155 You know, we, it's not updated in our system. 307 00:16:33,155 --> 00:16:37,025 And then all of a sudden you have this thing, I call it the sort of, we, we, 308 00:16:37,115 --> 00:16:40,084 you talk about gaps, actually we talk about in a minute, but the, this sort 309 00:16:40,084 --> 00:16:44,194 of experience crevasse, it's like it's quite narrow and you, you could jump 310 00:16:44,194 --> 00:16:47,675 over it to a customer and frequently do, but once you've fallen down into 311 00:16:47,675 --> 00:16:50,285 it, you're in this kind of deep, uh. 312 00:16:50,725 --> 00:16:53,450 Asse that no one can, you know, no one can even hear you. 313 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:53,900 Right. 314 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,160 Uh, at end you're sort of shouting up, saying, help, help, help on hard. 315 00:16:58,160 --> 00:16:58,760 And that's when you 316 00:16:59,630 --> 00:17:03,260 Lisa Dance: start the unpaid customer labor of your time, money climbing back, 317 00:17:03,260 --> 00:17:07,250 stress, trying to crawl, and then you, you scrape your, your know, your knuckles 318 00:17:07,250 --> 00:17:10,069 and you fall down and you try, you know? 319 00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:10,579 Yeah. 320 00:17:10,675 --> 00:17:12,159 So, absolutely. 321 00:17:12,159 --> 00:17:12,474 So we, we, 322 00:17:12,474 --> 00:17:14,784 Andy Polaine: we kind of laugh about this stuff, talking about it, and you 323 00:17:14,784 --> 00:17:18,415 know, like you probably, when I tell people what I do and it takes a little 324 00:17:18,415 --> 00:17:21,714 while to explain the service design thing, they go, oh, oh, the other 325 00:17:21,714 --> 00:17:24,774 day, you know, I was trying to get my broadband installed or whatever it is, 326 00:17:24,774 --> 00:17:28,794 you know, and I, I get like loads and loads and loads of these stories, which, 327 00:17:29,004 --> 00:17:32,784 you know, you've collected many of, I think it was Lou down, said in a, um. 328 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,560 Lou down wrote a book, um, called Good Services, and they said, you know, if 329 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,550 these things were physical products, they, they would be recalled, right? 330 00:17:40,550 --> 00:17:44,120 Because they're, uh, and in some cases they, you know, are actually dangerous, 331 00:17:44,570 --> 00:17:50,389 um, as digital services, but often just as, um, you know, just deeply frustrating. 332 00:17:50,959 --> 00:17:54,830 Um, but for some reason, um, services do not get. 333 00:17:56,265 --> 00:17:59,205 The same kind of scrutiny as as physical things. 334 00:17:59,655 --> 00:18:03,375 Um, why do you think, so, you know, you are in, in the book you've 335 00:18:03,375 --> 00:18:05,325 gone through and you've kinda analyzed a lot of these things. 336 00:18:05,835 --> 00:18:08,895 Um, why do you think this is happening so often? 337 00:18:09,585 --> 00:18:12,765 Um, maybe more often than having, you know, if, if a company brought 338 00:18:12,765 --> 00:18:16,125 out a. Uh, a car or something. 339 00:18:16,125 --> 00:18:18,945 It occasionally happens and the might like to test the thing, right? 340 00:18:18,945 --> 00:18:20,504 The gas pedal is not working properly. 341 00:18:20,504 --> 00:18:22,335 Then all of a sudden it's kind of big panic. 342 00:18:22,419 --> 00:18:24,855 Why, why is this not happening in, in these kind of service 343 00:18:24,855 --> 00:18:25,815 customer experiences? 344 00:18:27,345 --> 00:18:30,735 Lisa Dance: Well, I, I think, you know, sometimes it's about that they have just 345 00:18:30,735 --> 00:18:35,145 haven't done any research or they haven't done enough research on what the customer. 346 00:18:35,504 --> 00:18:39,014 Wants and needs and their context. 347 00:18:39,014 --> 00:18:39,315 Right? 348 00:18:39,315 --> 00:18:44,145 And so they're just not even designing anything that meets that need. 349 00:18:44,145 --> 00:18:44,504 Right. 350 00:18:44,895 --> 00:18:48,825 Uh, a lot of times I think people assume that they know, 351 00:18:48,825 --> 00:18:50,385 okay, well I pay my payment. 352 00:18:50,385 --> 00:18:51,435 So yeah. 353 00:18:51,435 --> 00:18:55,290 I. I, you know, I know I, I can design this, right? 354 00:18:55,620 --> 00:19:00,750 Um, versus say you're trying to, you know, uh, create a physical product 355 00:19:00,750 --> 00:19:04,920 like a television, well, you don't, you don't know how all of those 356 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:06,510 things have to go together, right? 357 00:19:06,870 --> 00:19:09,750 Um, so I think that that is that as well. 358 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,950 Um, but I think that there's also been some philosophies about, 359 00:19:14,220 --> 00:19:16,860 uh, product design that have, um. 360 00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:23,909 Not, not always been the best, um, like, um, the, uh, minimum, 361 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,340 you know, valuable product. 362 00:19:26,345 --> 00:19:27,125 Viable product. 363 00:19:27,125 --> 00:19:27,126 Yeah. 364 00:19:27,405 --> 00:19:27,605 Yeah. 365 00:19:27,689 --> 00:19:28,139 Yes. 366 00:19:28,230 --> 00:19:33,510 Because you know, on the bad side of that, you know, you're 367 00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:35,280 just experimenting with, uh. 368 00:19:36,195 --> 00:19:40,335 With customers, uh, you know, on something that can be really, you know, really 369 00:19:40,395 --> 00:19:45,795 quite flawed, you know, and so then they put that out there and it's always a 370 00:19:45,795 --> 00:19:48,525 backlog, which they never get to, right. 371 00:19:48,795 --> 00:19:52,455 Um, because the priority, at least in a lot of companies, they're 372 00:19:52,455 --> 00:19:56,625 being incentivized to create more features instead of actually 373 00:19:56,625 --> 00:20:01,570 resolving the backlog and actually making, uh, um, their core product. 374 00:20:02,350 --> 00:20:04,840 Like a really good experience. 375 00:20:05,110 --> 00:20:10,570 Um, they're looking to say, oh, we have a new feature and let's bring 376 00:20:10,570 --> 00:20:15,010 in, um, you know, sell that and bring in new revenue that away. 377 00:20:15,460 --> 00:20:15,700 Yes. 378 00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:18,310 I think that those are some of the, the reasons. 379 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:18,670 Yeah. 380 00:20:19,395 --> 00:20:22,754 Andy Polaine: I hear this quite often, um, from design folks actually, 381 00:20:22,754 --> 00:20:25,574 where they say, oh, you know, they keep saying, yeah, we'll fix it in 382 00:20:25,574 --> 00:20:27,074 the next release, but they never do. 383 00:20:27,135 --> 00:20:31,125 You know, my, my sort of mental metaphor of this is, um, 384 00:20:31,814 --> 00:20:33,195 it's like people kind of, uh. 385 00:20:34,410 --> 00:20:38,520 Racing along on a speedboat and things fall overboard. 386 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,860 And they say, well, we'll go back and get that later on. 387 00:20:40,860 --> 00:20:43,320 And then when they look back and go, someone says, well, you 388 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:44,430 said we'll go back and get that. 389 00:20:44,430 --> 00:20:47,820 And they look back and it's so far away, they go, oh, you know, we 390 00:20:48,030 --> 00:20:50,850 can't, we don't have time to turn around and go get back, get that now. 391 00:20:51,030 --> 00:20:55,410 And, and so it just speeds on and there's this, this kind of litter of broken 392 00:20:55,410 --> 00:20:57,450 stuff, uh, floating around behind. 393 00:20:58,300 --> 00:20:58,510 Lisa Dance: Right. 394 00:20:58,510 --> 00:20:58,690 Yeah. 395 00:20:58,690 --> 00:21:00,940 It's a ocean of it at this point. 396 00:21:01,155 --> 00:21:02,274 Yeah, absolutely. 397 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:02,740 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 398 00:21:02,740 --> 00:21:06,550 And there's a, actually, to extend this metaphor slightly, I, um, when I moved, 399 00:21:06,550 --> 00:21:08,500 I, I lived in Australia, um, twice. 400 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:11,770 And when I've, I've moved with a container, you know, across the, 401 00:21:11,770 --> 00:21:14,260 the ocean and they, you know, you have to have it insured. 402 00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:18,150 Uh, when I was, I. He said, yeah, well, you know, obviously 403 00:21:18,150 --> 00:21:19,350 in case it goes overboard. 404 00:21:19,710 --> 00:21:20,670 And I, and I said, really? 405 00:21:20,935 --> 00:21:23,790 And he said, yeah, no, it's about what kind of 400 containers go overboard? 406 00:21:23,820 --> 00:21:25,890 It might be more actually every year. 407 00:21:26,670 --> 00:21:27,450 And I thought, really? 408 00:21:27,870 --> 00:21:28,320 He said, yeah. 409 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,500 And then they sit in the shipping lane and because the, it, it kinda 410 00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:34,170 gets an air pocket in one corner, so it's like an iceberg, right? 411 00:21:34,170 --> 00:21:36,450 You just have this little corner of, its sticking out the water, but the 412 00:21:36,450 --> 00:21:39,360 rest of the container is underwater, you know, with all my furniture in it. 413 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:40,350 Um. 414 00:21:40,780 --> 00:21:41,890 And it just reminds me of that. 415 00:21:41,890 --> 00:21:45,490 'cause those things then come and really scupper people's customer journeys. 416 00:21:45,490 --> 00:21:47,380 Look at that, that my metaphor completely worked. 417 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:48,340 Yeah, 418 00:21:49,210 --> 00:21:49,960 Lisa Dance: absolutely. 419 00:21:50,830 --> 00:21:53,830 Andy Polaine: Um, there's another kind of time cost though, or time theft. 420 00:21:54,010 --> 00:22:00,040 Um, you know, we, you talked about this, so that sort of unpaid, um, labor. 421 00:22:01,110 --> 00:22:04,800 Is, um, there, well actually maybe those two are different concepts really, but the 422 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:10,830 unpaid labor of just making it difficult for customers or, or not making it easy. 423 00:22:10,949 --> 00:22:12,870 And maybe it's, um, it depends. 424 00:22:12,870 --> 00:22:16,500 Some, some organizations it definitely feels like you've made this difficult, 425 00:22:16,590 --> 00:22:19,409 like it is, you know, there's no phone number for Facebook, right. 426 00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:20,399 Anywhere. 427 00:22:21,090 --> 00:22:24,030 Um, other organizations I think just accidentally. 428 00:22:24,305 --> 00:22:25,175 Have that problem. 429 00:22:25,715 --> 00:22:28,625 And so there's this sort of invisible labor, uh, of those 430 00:22:28,625 --> 00:22:29,885 things, of that unpaid labor. 431 00:22:30,425 --> 00:22:33,185 And it's often falls on other members of the family too. 432 00:22:33,185 --> 00:22:36,995 You've got, uh, an example of, uh, I think, uh, someone's grandson 433 00:22:36,995 --> 00:22:39,785 or something like that, helping them, um, fit in something. 434 00:22:39,785 --> 00:22:41,345 So there's, there's that, that goes on. 435 00:22:42,335 --> 00:22:43,535 There's also a whole thing. 436 00:22:44,540 --> 00:22:48,080 You know, build as convenience around self service. 437 00:22:48,170 --> 00:22:48,500 Right. 438 00:22:48,890 --> 00:22:50,990 Uh, of self check in. 439 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:56,360 Um, and, uh, whether that's at a kiosk at the airport, or whether that's doing that 440 00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:00,710 on your phone or, um, you know, my mom, my mom's 84 now, so there's a lot of stuff 441 00:23:00,710 --> 00:23:03,500 there where she's like, oh, I suppose it's all on the phone, isn't it now? 442 00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:05,090 But I'd really much prefer to have something printed 443 00:23:05,090 --> 00:23:06,830 out and all of that stuff. 444 00:23:06,830 --> 00:23:08,270 I'm going to a concert on Friday. 445 00:23:08,330 --> 00:23:09,620 I'm gonna see Adele actually. 446 00:23:09,620 --> 00:23:10,280 And, um. 447 00:23:10,679 --> 00:23:13,110 Wow, there's no way of actually having a printed ticket, right? 448 00:23:13,110 --> 00:23:14,909 You app, it has to be on a smartphone. 449 00:23:15,389 --> 00:23:16,649 So there's all those kinds of things. 450 00:23:16,679 --> 00:23:20,129 Um, but even, you know, I don't, I don't eat at McDonald's, but, you know, 451 00:23:20,129 --> 00:23:24,929 go to McDonald's and, and there's, you know, clearing your tray, you know, or, 452 00:23:24,929 --> 00:23:26,760 or punching in the order these days. 453 00:23:26,909 --> 00:23:29,700 I think that, I dunno when that came in, uh, like I said, don't release 454 00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:32,040 at McDonald's, but I've seen people, then they go in as a screen, you 455 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,409 put in your order and basically the staff are just there to kind of. 456 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,380 You can see how they'd be replaced by a robot. 457 00:23:37,410 --> 00:23:39,270 'cause they're just there to kind of deliver the order on 458 00:23:39,270 --> 00:23:40,650 the thing and, and that's it. 459 00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:45,900 Um, there's an awful lot of unpaid labor that's crept into services. 460 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:52,590 Some of it's useful, but a lot of it is more, more like, um, this is a way 461 00:23:52,590 --> 00:23:56,370 of us to present, uh, uh, a service. 462 00:23:57,390 --> 00:24:00,030 Convenience, but in fact, you're working for the company. 463 00:24:00,570 --> 00:24:03,240 Have you come across that quite a lot in your, in your travels? 464 00:24:03,630 --> 00:24:04,830 Lisa Dance: Yeah, absolutely. 465 00:24:04,860 --> 00:24:09,720 'cause thinking about, um, self-service, yeah. 466 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,420 When it's, when it works, it's wonderful and it's convenient. 467 00:24:12,450 --> 00:24:17,160 But if it doesn't work, like especially think we're thinking about like online 468 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,660 things, there isn't an employee there if there's an issue to resolve it. 469 00:24:22,014 --> 00:24:22,375 Right. 470 00:24:22,975 --> 00:24:30,084 And so then not only like I'm stuck in this, now I have to go and go 471 00:24:30,145 --> 00:24:33,054 through their, you know, customer, um. 472 00:24:33,705 --> 00:24:39,825 Customer service or customer support, um, whatever mechanisms they have 473 00:24:40,065 --> 00:24:42,525 to try to get someone to resolve it. 474 00:24:42,735 --> 00:24:47,175 So a lot of times I feel like, you know, companies have championed these 475 00:24:47,175 --> 00:24:52,095 digital transformations and, um, self-service and, and things like that. 476 00:24:52,095 --> 00:24:54,645 They're really giving you the work. 477 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:55,380 Right. 478 00:24:55,380 --> 00:24:55,440 Yeah. 479 00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:59,130 Um, and saying, you know, hell, this is more convenient. 480 00:24:59,159 --> 00:25:04,500 And sometimes it is, but a lot of times it's not convenient 481 00:25:04,650 --> 00:25:06,120 because it's very difficult. 482 00:25:06,690 --> 00:25:11,250 And if it's not designed well, you can't get past it. 483 00:25:11,250 --> 00:25:11,550 Right? 484 00:25:11,970 --> 00:25:12,030 Yeah. 485 00:25:12,030 --> 00:25:12,481 And so you are. 486 00:25:13,545 --> 00:25:16,935 You are trying to do the work, you can't do the work, then you're 487 00:25:16,935 --> 00:25:20,505 doing more work to let them know you can't do the work, and then you 488 00:25:20,505 --> 00:25:22,094 still have to pay your money for it. 489 00:25:22,155 --> 00:25:25,155 And, and it's just a vicious cycle. 490 00:25:25,155 --> 00:25:25,995 You know what I mean? 491 00:25:25,995 --> 00:25:31,455 So yeah, it, that is that dark side, I would say of, uh. 492 00:25:31,845 --> 00:25:36,135 Digital transformations and self service that nobody sort of talks about, you know? 493 00:25:36,195 --> 00:25:36,405 Yeah. 494 00:25:37,185 --> 00:25:41,655 It's in the store or in McDonald's if you hit the button and something doesn't 495 00:25:41,655 --> 00:25:47,145 work, and then you can call somebody over and potentially they can resolve it. 496 00:25:47,445 --> 00:25:53,475 But then, like, it's a story in my book where I had a, went to a self-service, uh, 497 00:25:53,715 --> 00:26:00,255 um, kiosk, and as I was put in, I had put in, just put in my payment and the, uh. 498 00:26:01,225 --> 00:26:03,235 The screen said order terminated. 499 00:26:03,535 --> 00:26:10,285 Well, that didn't sound right and um, and so I looked at the, um, they have a board 500 00:26:10,285 --> 00:26:13,765 up there, which your, which your orders are coming in and it wasn't on there. 501 00:26:13,765 --> 00:26:17,965 I told the employee, they looked them on the board, didn't see it, so they, 502 00:26:18,355 --> 00:26:22,435 what they didn't know how to do anything with the computer part of it, the kiosk. 503 00:26:22,705 --> 00:26:27,595 So they ring, rung up my order again, and then two weeks later I get. 504 00:26:28,620 --> 00:26:30,179 Duplicate charges. 505 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,210 And so then I have to go back and do my unpaid customer labor 506 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:35,909 to get my money back with it. 507 00:26:35,909 --> 00:26:42,150 So, um, so all that to say is that like sometimes in person, they, there's 508 00:26:42,150 --> 00:26:46,679 a person there who can resolve the issue in a self-service environment, 509 00:26:46,679 --> 00:26:51,090 sometimes they still can, and definitely online, most of them, there is not 510 00:26:51,090 --> 00:26:55,139 an employee there to, uh, resolve the issue right in that moment. 511 00:26:55,534 --> 00:26:55,985 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 512 00:26:56,284 --> 00:27:01,115 Well, and soon it's replaced by an AI chat bot who, um, just invents stuff anyway. 513 00:27:02,195 --> 00:27:02,525 Lisa Dance: Right. 514 00:27:02,525 --> 00:27:04,085 That's very ineffective. 515 00:27:04,205 --> 00:27:04,775 And, uh. 516 00:27:05,715 --> 00:27:10,665 It's interesting you brought that up, is that, uh, the White House 517 00:27:10,875 --> 00:27:16,395 last week and, um, announced an initiative called Time Is Money. 518 00:27:16,395 --> 00:27:20,355 That's talking exactly about the things that I was talking about in my book 519 00:27:20,355 --> 00:27:27,015 about these companies and the everyday hassles that they are, uh, false upon. 520 00:27:27,105 --> 00:27:27,795 Um. 521 00:27:28,409 --> 00:27:32,550 Customers, um, and taking their time and money. 522 00:27:32,550 --> 00:27:37,170 And they were, they're announcing this government wide, um, effort, uh, through 523 00:27:37,170 --> 00:27:39,420 different agencies to crack down on that. 524 00:27:39,420 --> 00:27:43,320 And one of the things that they were talking about was, um, AI 525 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:48,630 chat bots that actually don't, uh, can't actually resolve an issue. 526 00:27:48,810 --> 00:27:49,230 Right? 527 00:27:49,230 --> 00:27:49,290 Yeah. 528 00:27:49,380 --> 00:27:54,239 Um, and how, um, they were through different agencies, they were going 529 00:27:54,239 --> 00:27:56,100 crack, they were, um, going to have. 530 00:27:56,705 --> 00:28:00,485 Rules and regulations to try to crack down on that for companies. 531 00:28:00,815 --> 00:28:06,665 Uh, um, so I think they mentioned in the initiative, like, especially like for 532 00:28:06,665 --> 00:28:10,745 banks, that banks can't, you know, like have this AI chat bot and that doesn't 533 00:28:10,745 --> 00:28:13,505 actually resolve, help resolve your issue. 534 00:28:13,510 --> 00:28:13,550 Yeah. 535 00:28:13,889 --> 00:28:15,005 So yeah, 536 00:28:15,275 --> 00:28:15,965 Andy Polaine: talk to the bot. 537 00:28:16,475 --> 00:28:17,824 The organization isn't listening. 538 00:28:18,815 --> 00:28:20,615 It, it's a very asymmetric relationship. 539 00:28:20,615 --> 00:28:20,855 Right. 540 00:28:20,855 --> 00:28:21,095 Too. 541 00:28:21,095 --> 00:28:23,615 I think that's, that's one of the things we talked about in our book actually 542 00:28:23,615 --> 00:28:28,965 on service design where, you know, uh, if I. If I don't have a ticket on a 543 00:28:28,965 --> 00:28:34,545 train, you know, I, I can get fined on the spot and the, and the, the ticket 544 00:28:34,545 --> 00:28:37,635 inspector's going to take my credit card and, and make me buy the ticket 545 00:28:37,635 --> 00:28:39,675 plus the fine and all that immediately. 546 00:28:40,365 --> 00:28:45,135 Uh, whereas if the train is canceled or, um, delayed and I can claim 547 00:28:45,135 --> 00:28:48,675 my money back, it can take months sometimes for that to happen. 548 00:28:48,675 --> 00:28:49,875 And it does feel like. 549 00:28:50,820 --> 00:28:53,520 Well, it's, it's a bit like in the uk I dunno if you know, but there, there was 550 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,929 this thing called the hostile environment, kind of, um, foreign policy for, for, 551 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,389 um, asylum seekers in particular. 552 00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:03,449 Um, which was just to make it really difficult, right? 553 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,860 It difficult and expensive to apply for asylum and get citizenship and all the 554 00:29:07,860 --> 00:29:09,360 rest, or residency and all the rest of it. 555 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,745 Um, you know, and. 556 00:29:12,824 --> 00:29:16,845 If you've ever tried to get citizenship in, in another place in the world, you'll 557 00:29:16,845 --> 00:29:18,585 find out how hostile that is or not. 558 00:29:18,585 --> 00:29:22,425 And you, you realize, okay, this is actually set up for just to put so many 559 00:29:22,425 --> 00:29:27,675 hurdles in the way that people will give up, um, rather than, um, rather than 560 00:29:27,675 --> 00:29:29,235 actually kind of chase it up, you know? 561 00:29:29,235 --> 00:29:32,835 And, and it's, it's often known until they, they write to the newspaper. 562 00:29:32,835 --> 00:29:36,225 It becomes a kind of meme online, and then all of a sudden, you know, 563 00:29:36,255 --> 00:29:38,054 the, it becomes a PR disaster. 564 00:29:38,514 --> 00:29:40,195 But that stuff for that stuff to kick in. 565 00:29:40,195 --> 00:29:44,475 But it is a, I think for a, from a. So my, my theory about this is that 566 00:29:44,475 --> 00:29:47,235 I think humans, you know, humans anthropomorphize everything, right? 567 00:29:47,235 --> 00:29:50,985 We, we talk about our cars and our animals as if they're humans. 568 00:29:50,985 --> 00:29:53,505 And I think we do this with companies or organizations too. 569 00:29:53,655 --> 00:29:56,625 And so we relate to them as if we were, it was just another human 570 00:29:56,625 --> 00:29:59,385 being and they just, but they obviously don't act like that. 571 00:29:59,385 --> 00:30:02,775 They act in this completely different and unreasonable way. 572 00:30:03,165 --> 00:30:05,865 And I think that's one of the reasons why it's so jarring all the 573 00:30:05,865 --> 00:30:07,695 time, uh, to have that experience. 574 00:30:08,565 --> 00:30:09,495 Lisa Dance: Well, definitely. 575 00:30:09,495 --> 00:30:11,655 And then in the US there's. 576 00:30:12,450 --> 00:30:15,030 Like a doctrine. 577 00:30:15,705 --> 00:30:20,535 Something that, you know, a corporation actually, you know, ha it is like, it's 578 00:30:20,535 --> 00:30:24,525 like the status of a person, but they don't have the consequences of a person. 579 00:30:24,675 --> 00:30:24,945 Right. 580 00:30:25,100 --> 00:30:31,185 And so, you know, very nice put So, uh, you know, and, and you are, um, 581 00:30:31,275 --> 00:30:36,040 in these circumstances, you know, you have all of the, you know, the, the, 582 00:30:36,075 --> 00:30:38,055 the pain and the suffering of this. 583 00:30:38,385 --> 00:30:40,755 And I talk about in my book that, you know, people who 584 00:30:40,755 --> 00:30:42,495 have the least resources, this. 585 00:30:42,555 --> 00:30:48,105 Is, you know, even worse for them because if your money is held in limbo and you 586 00:30:48,105 --> 00:30:53,745 don't have any money, then you, you know, you are, that's the money that you want 587 00:30:53,745 --> 00:30:58,485 to use to, to feed yourself or to pay your rent or take care of your children. 588 00:30:58,485 --> 00:31:02,595 And then you are in such a deficit in a vulnerable position when you get in. 589 00:31:02,655 --> 00:31:02,865 Uh. 590 00:31:03,495 --> 00:31:08,685 A situation like that where your money's held in limbo and you don't, and then 591 00:31:08,685 --> 00:31:13,575 oftentimes it's, you know, you know, some people, they don't have the time, they 592 00:31:13,575 --> 00:31:19,575 don't have a, you know, a nice office job where they can stay on the phone and 593 00:31:19,635 --> 00:31:24,735 um, and call for hours and wait on hold and to try to get something resolved. 594 00:31:24,855 --> 00:31:28,005 And so sometimes they just have to give up, but they really can't 595 00:31:28,005 --> 00:31:29,445 even afford to give up either. 596 00:31:29,445 --> 00:31:31,995 And so that's the really, um. 597 00:31:32,895 --> 00:31:37,245 That's, that's the part in a lot of this that bothers me the most mm-hmm. 598 00:31:37,485 --> 00:31:41,655 Is that, uh, you are really doing harm to people like above and 599 00:31:41,655 --> 00:31:46,995 beyond what they lost far as in the money and the transaction, right? 600 00:31:47,325 --> 00:31:47,415 Mm-hmm. 601 00:31:47,775 --> 00:31:49,545 Um, a cascading cost of it. 602 00:31:50,055 --> 00:31:54,345 And it's interesting that you were mentioning about the media because 603 00:31:54,345 --> 00:31:56,265 one of the stories in the book. 604 00:31:57,305 --> 00:32:01,925 Is about my three over three year struggle to get unemployment, uh, 605 00:32:01,955 --> 00:32:05,105 benefits, um, that were from the pandemic. 606 00:32:05,675 --> 00:32:06,335 And, um, 607 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,400 I. I wrote the story in the book. 608 00:32:11,460 --> 00:32:14,550 Um, all the other stories are private. 609 00:32:14,790 --> 00:32:19,140 Um, you know, were private companies, but I also wanted to put far as, 610 00:32:19,410 --> 00:32:22,920 um, example of government as well, because there's expectation around, 611 00:32:23,730 --> 00:32:28,800 um, customer service and, and customer experience for, uh, government as well. 612 00:32:29,340 --> 00:32:30,535 And actually. 613 00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:35,580 The only reason I actually finally got my money after over three years 614 00:32:35,580 --> 00:32:41,640 is because I contacted a reporter, and a reporter did a, contacted the, um, 615 00:32:41,670 --> 00:32:46,770 the Virginia Employment Commission, and then suddenly they were calling me 616 00:32:46,770 --> 00:32:48,660 to see if they had the right address. 617 00:32:48,990 --> 00:32:54,180 And in two days of them calling, I had my money that I had been waiting 618 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,400 three years, uh, to get That's 619 00:32:56,910 --> 00:32:57,000 yeah. 620 00:32:57,030 --> 00:32:57,570 Lisa Dance: Yes. 621 00:32:57,969 --> 00:33:02,139 And so that's oftentimes is what's happening as well. 622 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,219 And so that circles back to, I wanted to say for two points. 623 00:33:06,219 --> 00:33:12,130 One is that in that situation with the unemployment, the part that bothered 624 00:33:12,130 --> 00:33:16,120 me and worried me the whole time is that I knew that there were people. 625 00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:19,920 There were hundreds of thousands of people who were in the same situation. 626 00:33:20,220 --> 00:33:20,250 Mm. 627 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:25,830 Lisa Dance: As me, uh, with the Virginia Unemployment Commission and the, the, 628 00:33:25,830 --> 00:33:29,400 I definitely know that there were people who were in much more precarious 629 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,510 situations than I. And if you don't have a job and then you're getting 630 00:33:33,510 --> 00:33:37,020 your unemployment and you still have to eat and live there and, and take 631 00:33:37,020 --> 00:33:38,910 care of your kids, what do you do? 632 00:33:39,030 --> 00:33:42,870 And so that's just like bothered me to accord, uh, with that. 633 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:50,210 Then also it circles back to like if companies are waiting until the media 634 00:33:50,870 --> 00:33:55,370 contacts them to, you know, do the right thing, and that's the only way that 635 00:33:55,370 --> 00:33:57,290 you can get them to do the right thing. 636 00:33:57,860 --> 00:34:03,680 Um, you know, that's a, um, you know, that's a cost to that too, because then 637 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,260 you're having to make sure you are, um. 638 00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:12,170 Monitoring, you know, all kinds of platforms and things like that for 639 00:34:12,170 --> 00:34:14,840 your, for you know, reputation, right? 640 00:34:14,900 --> 00:34:15,110 Yeah, yeah. 641 00:34:15,110 --> 00:34:18,440 And now with online platforms. 642 00:34:19,245 --> 00:34:24,855 You know, there are just numerous ways of people to like event their, um, 643 00:34:25,425 --> 00:34:29,655 uh, displeasure or just share their story of how something has gone wrong. 644 00:34:30,225 --> 00:34:35,025 And I think of an example is that Vanguard just got a new CEO and there 645 00:34:35,025 --> 00:34:40,485 was an article about a month or so, um, in the Wall Street Journal, um, talking 646 00:34:40,485 --> 00:34:43,485 about that longtime customers were. 647 00:34:43,975 --> 00:34:49,435 Imploring the new, new CEO to improve, uh, is that customer service, right? 648 00:34:49,435 --> 00:34:53,125 And like, you know, is that really what you want? 649 00:34:53,125 --> 00:34:56,455 Is that like you get a story in the Wall Street Journal that your, you 650 00:34:56,455 --> 00:34:58,550 know, your customer experiences are? 651 00:34:59,790 --> 00:35:00,840 That bad. 652 00:35:01,650 --> 00:35:07,110 And some people in, in the, in one of the articles I read, they said, well, 653 00:35:07,590 --> 00:35:12,240 maybe one of their strategists, it's that they wanna get rid of sort of 654 00:35:12,240 --> 00:35:14,310 these customers because they don't, I. 655 00:35:15,049 --> 00:35:18,140 They don't make, they don't make them as much money and they wanted to put them 656 00:35:18,140 --> 00:35:22,370 in this sort of, I think like personal advising service or something like that. 657 00:35:22,939 --> 00:35:27,740 But I'm thinking to myself, well, how many people are you losing when 658 00:35:27,740 --> 00:35:31,160 you've gotten, you have a story in the Wall Street Journal about 659 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:32,870 how bad your customer experience 660 00:35:32,899 --> 00:35:33,020 Yeah. 661 00:35:33,020 --> 00:35:33,049 Are, 662 00:35:34,004 --> 00:35:35,029 Lisa Dance: you know, so. 663 00:35:36,825 --> 00:35:40,545 That's like, I think people need to think through, like, there are lots of 664 00:35:40,545 --> 00:35:43,215 other cascading cost of consequences. 665 00:35:43,695 --> 00:35:44,895 Andy Polaine: Well, that's an invisible one as well. 666 00:35:44,925 --> 00:35:47,085 'cause you don't know, you don't know how many customers you, 667 00:35:47,175 --> 00:35:51,225 you, you didn't get because they didn't even start the process. 668 00:35:51,375 --> 00:35:51,795 Right. 669 00:35:52,005 --> 00:35:56,745 My favorite story, uh, of this is there was a, a story that hit the papers in, 670 00:35:56,745 --> 00:36:01,725 in Australia, um, it's quite a few years ago now, where a guy, um, went into the. 671 00:36:01,905 --> 00:36:06,135 Optus, uh, store Optus is like the second largest telco in, in Australia. 672 00:36:06,735 --> 00:36:09,255 Uh, and chained himself to the reception desk. 673 00:36:09,375 --> 00:36:14,265 Um, because he had spent so many hours trying to get the ownership of 674 00:36:14,265 --> 00:36:18,915 his iPad's business account number or, you know, data account changed. 675 00:36:19,515 --> 00:36:22,635 Uh, and in the end, you know, this, they had to call the police and stuff 676 00:36:22,635 --> 00:36:25,695 and, you know, it was, it was resolved kinda peacefully, but, and it's a 677 00:36:25,695 --> 00:36:26,775 kind of funny story and obviously. 678 00:36:27,185 --> 00:36:29,464 You're in a shop, shop for the smartphones, right? 679 00:36:29,464 --> 00:36:32,375 So of course what happens is pictures that everywhere, uh, 680 00:36:32,375 --> 00:36:33,995 and it hit the, hit the media. 681 00:36:34,475 --> 00:36:37,234 Um, and it, so it sounds funny on the one hand, but you also have to kinda think 682 00:36:37,535 --> 00:36:42,185 that guy who's a small business owner is so frustrated that he's gone into, he's 683 00:36:42,185 --> 00:36:45,995 bought a length of chain and gone into a shop and chained himself to it and risked 684 00:36:46,085 --> 00:36:48,785 being arrested because of his frustration. 685 00:36:48,785 --> 00:36:53,359 And it always, always kind of show that story quite often because. 686 00:36:54,450 --> 00:36:56,549 You know, the initial thing is, haha, that's really funny. 687 00:36:56,549 --> 00:36:58,529 And then actually, when you think about it, it's actually 688 00:36:58,529 --> 00:36:59,730 not, it's not funny at all. 689 00:36:59,940 --> 00:37:00,930 It's really tragic. 690 00:37:01,890 --> 00:37:02,850 Lisa Dance: Very tragic. 691 00:37:02,850 --> 00:37:04,350 And, and, and, and disturbing. 692 00:37:04,350 --> 00:37:11,790 And to think about how the, the mental frustrations that he has had to go 693 00:37:11,790 --> 00:37:13,605 through to get him to that point. 694 00:37:13,605 --> 00:37:13,924 Exactly. 695 00:37:13,944 --> 00:37:17,700 You know, and they don't e and even though he got the issue resolved, 696 00:37:17,879 --> 00:37:22,920 like, you know, having to go to that extreme of a, uh, step. 697 00:37:24,075 --> 00:37:27,945 That stress sort of still kinda, you still have a flashback of 698 00:37:27,945 --> 00:37:30,945 this really negative emotion. 699 00:37:30,975 --> 00:37:31,035 Yeah. 700 00:37:31,305 --> 00:37:35,475 'cause as I was, uh, collecting these stories, uh, you know, like 701 00:37:35,775 --> 00:37:40,005 one person's like, you know, they had to take a, a moment because. 702 00:37:40,685 --> 00:37:43,024 Talking about it was very stressful. 703 00:37:43,055 --> 00:37:43,115 Yeah. 704 00:37:43,115 --> 00:37:48,875 And I put like a caution, you know, in my, on my, uh, table of contents, like 705 00:37:48,875 --> 00:37:53,285 if you feel stressed about this and it's like tricking you on some situation 706 00:37:53,285 --> 00:37:57,875 that you have, then, you know, take a moment and, and, and de stress from that. 707 00:37:57,875 --> 00:38:01,205 Because what I've found is I've talked, when I talk to people 708 00:38:01,205 --> 00:38:02,585 and mention about my book. 709 00:38:03,585 --> 00:38:06,044 Everybody has one, two, or nine stories. 710 00:38:06,345 --> 00:38:11,835 And, and the story, the companies have a, they still have a. A lingering 711 00:38:11,835 --> 00:38:16,964 really negative, um, uh, feelings about it, you know what I mean? 712 00:38:16,964 --> 00:38:21,255 So it's, it doesn't just sort of dissipate just 'cause you've gotten it resolved, 713 00:38:21,555 --> 00:38:26,805 not when they, these issues have gone to the extent that, like the ones examples in 714 00:38:26,805 --> 00:38:28,665 the book or, or this gentleman, you know. 715 00:38:29,634 --> 00:38:31,464 Andy Polaine: No, it can leave definitely a real trace. 716 00:38:31,464 --> 00:38:34,585 It can leave kind of fear as well of doing things and all sorts, I think too. 717 00:38:35,245 --> 00:38:35,665 Lisa Dance: Yeah. 718 00:38:35,665 --> 00:38:38,484 Well, you know what I, I also mentioned in the book, it's like 719 00:38:38,904 --> 00:38:40,830 customers, when you run into an. 720 00:38:41,415 --> 00:38:42,104 Issue. 721 00:38:42,165 --> 00:38:47,145 You get that familiar sense of dread of is this going to be something that actually 722 00:38:47,595 --> 00:38:51,075 I can resolve really quickly, you know? 723 00:38:51,075 --> 00:38:57,890 Or is this gonna be, am I gonna go into, you know, this abyss and you know, I. Who 724 00:38:57,890 --> 00:38:59,720 knows when it's going to get resolved. 725 00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:04,370 And so you do feel that because you, you've gotten it enough that that's 726 00:39:04,370 --> 00:39:06,799 what the experience of things are now. 727 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:07,340 So 728 00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:08,480 Andy Polaine: occasionally get the opposite. 729 00:39:08,779 --> 00:39:12,230 Where, where they go, they result, you ring up and thinking with that dread 730 00:39:12,230 --> 00:39:13,940 and say, okay, I've sorted out for you. 731 00:39:14,299 --> 00:39:15,230 Is there anything else I can do? 732 00:39:15,620 --> 00:39:16,310 And you're like, oh. 733 00:39:16,985 --> 00:39:19,265 Oh, I was expecting that's be so much harder than it was. 734 00:39:19,355 --> 00:39:20,315 Um, no, that's it. 735 00:39:20,315 --> 00:39:20,675 Thanks. 736 00:39:21,070 --> 00:39:21,560 It's too, right, 737 00:39:22,835 --> 00:39:23,045 Lisa Dance: Peggy? 738 00:39:24,005 --> 00:39:24,065 Andy Polaine: Yeah. 739 00:39:24,065 --> 00:39:24,965 You've got, I've got a Peggy. 740 00:39:25,655 --> 00:39:27,275 Um, listen, we are coming up to time. 741 00:39:27,335 --> 00:39:28,865 Um, it's been great chatting to you. 742 00:39:28,865 --> 00:39:32,465 The, the show is named after this, um, Ray Charles EAMS film. 743 00:39:32,465 --> 00:39:35,465 It's all about kind of the size of relative powers of 10 all throughout the 744 00:39:35,465 --> 00:39:37,535 relative size of things in the universe. 745 00:39:37,655 --> 00:39:41,825 Um, so the final question is always what one small thing is either overlooked 746 00:39:41,855 --> 00:39:45,485 or could be redesigned that would have an outsized effect on the world. 747 00:39:46,145 --> 00:39:50,220 Lisa Dance: I, I think that when you're designing a particle service technology, 748 00:39:50,490 --> 00:39:57,300 it's taking that step to really think through what could go wrong and actually 749 00:39:57,300 --> 00:40:04,500 resolving it early on, or actually putting in a step if something goes wrong, 750 00:40:04,890 --> 00:40:10,620 where, where's that, uh, really quick and, and easy way to get it resolved. 751 00:40:10,620 --> 00:40:12,660 I think, uh, people. 752 00:40:13,020 --> 00:40:16,709 Designed for the happy path as as if everything's happy and 753 00:40:16,709 --> 00:40:18,299 nothing ever will go wrong. 754 00:40:18,509 --> 00:40:21,419 But if you actually just took a little bit of time to think 755 00:40:21,419 --> 00:40:23,640 about how something may go wrong. 756 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,860 You can avoid just so much, uh, pain on the backside. 757 00:40:28,860 --> 00:40:30,570 So that would be it. 758 00:40:30,750 --> 00:40:30,779 Okay. 759 00:40:30,779 --> 00:40:31,140 Andy Polaine: Very good. 760 00:40:31,140 --> 00:40:35,759 For me, I think, and it adds to this if I may, which is, you know, empowering 761 00:40:35,759 --> 00:40:40,230 those frontline staff, I think quite often they are treated as kind of very in 762 00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:41,985 mean menial roles and not very trusted. 763 00:40:42,390 --> 00:40:45,660 And, and if they're able to, they're given the power to, to 764 00:40:45,660 --> 00:40:47,340 credit some, a certain amount back. 765 00:40:47,895 --> 00:40:49,995 Without question or without having to go to a supervisor. 766 00:40:49,995 --> 00:40:51,765 Sometimes I kind of think, you know, why are you even having 767 00:40:51,765 --> 00:40:52,815 to ask someone about that? 768 00:40:52,815 --> 00:40:55,424 The time it takes you to do that, it's gonna cost you more, or the 769 00:40:55,424 --> 00:40:58,964 organization more than just saying, yeah, okay, we'll refund that. 770 00:40:59,565 --> 00:41:01,455 So, uh, where can people find you online? 771 00:41:02,295 --> 00:41:02,685 Lisa Dance: Certainly. 772 00:41:02,685 --> 00:41:06,435 So you can, uh, find me, uh, on LinkedIn. 773 00:41:06,525 --> 00:41:07,125 Uh. 774 00:41:07,500 --> 00:41:11,940 Lisa D Dance or you can, uh, find me on my website, which 775 00:41:11,940 --> 00:41:14,110 is serviceease.net. 776 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,490 Lisa Dance: Um, and if you wanna sign up, I have a newsletter, it's 777 00:41:17,490 --> 00:41:22,110 called Tell A Friend, um, you can sign up for that on my website as well. 778 00:41:22,170 --> 00:41:23,940 And that comes out monthly. 779 00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:24,420 Andy Polaine: Correct. 780 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:25,320 And the, the book 781 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,550 is, todayistheperfectday.com? 782 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:27,990 Lisa Dance: Yes. 783 00:41:27,990 --> 00:41:29,670 And that's the website for the book. 784 00:41:29,820 --> 00:41:30,270 Andy Polaine: Definitely. 785 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:30,900 Cool. 786 00:41:31,015 --> 00:41:33,030 I'll, I'll put all the links in the show notes. 787 00:41:33,779 --> 00:41:36,299 Lisa, thank you so much for being my guest on Power of 10. 788 00:41:36,689 --> 00:41:37,169 Lisa Dance: Thank you. 789 00:41:37,169 --> 00:41:38,549 I've enjoyed it so much. 790 00:41:38,790 --> 00:41:40,680 Andy Polaine: You've been watching and listening to Power of 10. 791 00:41:40,740 --> 00:41:43,799 You can find more about the show on pauline.com where you can also 792 00:41:43,799 --> 00:41:46,919 check out my leadership coaching practice on my courses, as well as 793 00:41:46,919 --> 00:41:49,140 sign up for my my regular newsletter. 794 00:41:49,140 --> 00:41:52,379 Doctor's Note, if you have any thoughts, please put them in 795 00:41:52,410 --> 00:41:53,609 the comments or get in touch. 796 00:41:53,609 --> 00:41:56,790 You can share your horrific customer experience, uh, there too. 797 00:41:57,485 --> 00:41:57,845 Uh, you'll 798 00:41:57,844 --> 00:42:00,904 find me as apolaine on PKM social 799 00:42:00,904 --> 00:42:01,714 Andy Polaine: on Mastodon. 800 00:42:01,894 --> 00:42:04,114 Uh, you'll find me on LinkedIn or my website. 801 00:42:04,174 --> 00:42:05,614 All the links are in the show notes too. 802 00:42:06,304 --> 00:42:08,584 Thanks for listening and watching, and I'll see you next time.