Paul: [00:00:00] Dude, dude, dude.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So many very specific memories shooting.

Paul: Yeah. So welcome episode to episode two 16, Chicago. Two 16, Chicago. Chicago.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Chicago with Matt de Carroll Trains Chicago with Matt De Carroll Trains. Um, trains. Trains, and automobile Trains. There's no planes. Train trains. Trains are, oh, there's a helicopter.

There's a helicopter. There's one helicopter. Um, wow. So,

Paul: uh. As I was [00:01:00] saying at the beginning of the watch party, there are a few episodes that stand out, few scenes really that stand out. When I think, oh, prison break, like you do that many episodes, certain things come to the, for, for whatever reason, there was a couple in season one.

For season two, it's the torture scene and then the, you strangling me also the scene when you first, it's you trying

Sarah Wayne Callies: to kill me and then me trying to kill you.

Paul: Mm-hmm. And then the scene, the fir, the scene when I'm up against the wall watching you guys. And then you, uh, being us saying hello again. And you and Michael strangling a lot of strangling.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A lot of people trying to wring your neck.

Paul: Yeah. A lot of people trying to wring my neck and, um, so I remember all these things. It must be so different for you to remember them because you were pregnant. I was so sick. How pregnant were you?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, not enough, less than 10 weeks because, um,

Paul: but you knew you were pregnant.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I knew I was pregnant. It was probably about [00:02:00] eight weeks. I had such terrible morning sickness. Oh, wow. And I would go back and forth between being ravenous, uhhuh and then throwing up The way often happens. And so I think, if I'm remembering correctly, in the course of shooting the actual, the scene in the train car, all those, those scenes, um.

Not the bathroom stuff, not the stuff in the engine room, but the train car. I think I went through four grilled cheese sandwiches

Paul: and then threw them up.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, I would, I'd be like, oh my God, if I don't eat something right now, I'd be okay. And of course, craft service, you know, my concern was craft service.

Thought I.

Paul: It was bulimic.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh, yeah. I think they thought I'd, I had an eating disorder. Um, because when I had to leave I'd be like, I gotta get off this train right now. Mm. And I don't remember, I know Wentworth knew. I don't think Jesse Bochco knew. I don't think our producer don't think stunt stunt people do.

You didn't tell Kevin Cooks

Paul: Eric Norris maybe?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I really, [00:03:00] honestly don't remember.

Paul: Um, I remember. Okay. I remember definitely not knowing. Um, so we'll talk about that later. Um, yeah, but no, we won't. I'm kidding. I don't know. Well just could keep you safe. But I also remember, I don't remember who the stunt person was, but I remember, it might must have been Eric, but I remember, uh, choreographing, you strangling me.

And I remember part of them allowing us to do it in terms of like safety and stuff, because I was like, don't you want our faces? Like, I remember that discussion was that the, what I was worried about was struggling, was hurting you. And I very, the seat, I very specifically remember you saying, but the seat is between us, seats between us, and I can, and you saying, oh, I can judge my distance from the seat that you can really bang against it.

And I, I'll, I'll be fine.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. I really wanted you to be able to go wild.

Paul: Yeah. Which I did. Um, [00:04:00] choking is interesting, you know, uh, the other scene in particular when Michael's choking me, because, you know, if you're being choked, you can't talk.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Definitively and you kind of immediately go purple, like, right.

So it's pretty quick.

Paul: So saying and, and also choking, much like throwing up or one of those things on camera, that there's certain things that people do that I don't feel are real.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul: But you, you fall into those traps. There's like

Sarah Wayne Callies: conventions.

Paul: Mm-hmm. Like people, but also partly

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think it's. Because the real version is so, but I think faking

Paul: it makes you do so.

Like people that puke on camera then cough, like do you cough after you vomit? I don't. I don't.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, I spit. 'cause I wanna get the taste outta right.

Paul: Um, and after getting choke, you cough on camera, which I did do, I, I noticed in one scene, but I remember I had to figure out how to talk. Mm. With like, you lead, you lead me.

Yeah. I don't remember what it was, but like,

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:05:00] without sounding like you represent the lollipop guilt. Right.

Paul: Also, I hate shit. Around my neck. Like I don't, like, sometimes I can't button a shirt and wear a tie. 'cause it's just like,

Sarah Wayne Callies: really? That's just you.

Paul: It just sometimes, like, it's weird. I go through phases for years where it doesn't bother me and then suddenly it bother me.

But like, I remember it being really hard to let them do that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Huh.

Paul: But, uh, Wentworth was great about it, obviously. And, and, yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Always. Well, that's also the challenge when you're choking someone

Paul: harder than being choked, for sure.

Sarah Wayne Callies: 90% of your attention is, how do I put the tension into my hand without hurting them at all?

Do you know what I mean? Like it's Yeah. Much

Paul: easier on stage.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you just, what, as soon as you see the closeup of someone's hand, right. If it's just doing this, you're like, I don't, I don't buy it. Yeah. I don't buy it at all. Um, okay. Should we do our index to just kind of

Paul: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Well, I want to ask you about choking too, but we'll get there.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Get the, [00:06:00] this is for people who don't know what we're doing. This is not the s and m episode. This is all germane to the plot of episode two 16, which is called Chicago. Shot in Dallas

Paul: and features lots of choking

Sarah Wayne Callies: and features, lots of choking, lots of shocking amount of violence.

Um, and actually, I'll be honest, some light bondage, although not the way you think, it's just teabag and Mrs. Holland are being

Paul: also you choking me could be, I guess, considered light bondage.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um. Moving on. Okay. So, um, Palestine Index, uh, because again, this was 19 years ago and the world was a different place.

So episode two 16 was called Chicago, which of course shot in Dallas. Um, it aired on the 5th of February. Wait,

Paul: wait, what do you mean? What do you mean? Because the world was a different, what?

Sarah Wayne Callies: The world was a different place and 19 years ago.

Paul: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So that's why we're doing the Cistine index. Oh, I'm, what was different?

Oh,

Paul: I'm sorry. Yes, yes, of course. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Misunderstood. Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um. [00:07:00] Uh, okay. So aired February 7th, 2000. Nope. February 5th, 2007. It was directed by Jesse Bochco. Uh, he was a first time director on the show. He would do one more episode in season four, who's also the son of legendary writer, producer Steven Bochco, who created one of Paul's favorite shows, hill Street Blues.

Yes, you did. And also one of my favorite shows. NYPD. Blue. Yes. Um. A total legend and JI mean, Jesse directed this episode like a boss. Yeah. This is a, this is a gnarly way. If I had gotten this script,

Paul: he may have been our youngest director too, would, 'cause he was like our age.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Paul: Probably between us.

Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean he, him and Guy Ferland. Yeah. Yeah. Guy would probably be, yeah, guy was, guy was young too. Yeah. They're kind of on the, on the coming up. Mm-hmm. Uh, side of things. Mm-hmm. Um. Okay. Co-written by Matt Olmsted and Nick Santora. Two of our, uh, uh, standby gangsters. Um, [00:08:00] episode audience grew to 10.1 million live viewers, so it's been going up every.

Uh, episode since they came back from the mid-season, um, which was great. This is the first time we were in double digits. And just to recap, since it's been a while, competition, the 8:00 PM time slot, was wife swap on a B, C deal or no deal on NBC. How I met your mother on CBS collectively known as how I met your wife and made a deal.

That's

Paul: also called, uh, indecent proposal,

Sarah Wayne Callies: which oh bravo, which is, um, less exciting than the spinoff we talked about on the, uh, on the rewatch. Um, Brad Beic Bounty Hunter. Which I would watch. I'm,

Paul: I'm still developing. I think it's all day. Great. Yeah. Great, great. Uh, potential, uh, here's our recap. Michael Lincoln and Kellerman Unite with Sarah, who tells Michael what Kellerman did to her, which does not go well.

But Kellerman regains his position by revealing that he knows what Dr. Sarah's [00:09:00] key is for. Four Comp Padres board a train to Chicago where Sarah tries to kill Kellerman, which also does not go well elsewhere. Mrs. Hollander has a guest, which further does not go well. So Teabag decides to move their creepy wannabe family outside the city in another spinoff called.

The Hollanders. Meanwhile, C Note and his daughter eat a diner, which does not go well when they're attacked by a mentally unstable rob. But when C Note successfully resolves the situation, others help him and Didi escape the police. Back at Fox River, Maho tries to convince the new warden to transfer beek to ad seg, and that does not go well.

So he offers beek freedom in exchange for doing his dirty work, which goes well. Beek finds haywire. Chases him to the top of a tower. Treating him as Peck says, except that doesn't go well for haywire when, for haywire, when maho arrives and haywire ends up dead. [00:10:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, okay. History wise in that settled once and for all news.

On February 2nd, Groundhog Day, scientists at the Intergovernment Panel on Climate change confirmed that global warming. Real with their three year study saying it's very likely caused by human activity. That was news at the time. Um, the report also said that the rise in temperatures and rising seas could be curtailed with quick action update.

It's been 19 years. Uh, I will just leave it there. Um, please reduce, reuse, recycle. I'm told that'll fix everything. In controversial Blonde news, Anna Nicole Smith. Oh, passed away on February 8th of a drug overdose. I remember her being. All over the news for so long. Ubiquitous all over everything for so long.

Ubiquitous. Yeah. She was, uh, this is because she was 27 year olds, 27 years old when she married an 86-year-old petroleum tycoon. Resulting in many nasty court cases over [00:11:00] that tycoon's inheritance when he died two years later and left her, I believe like everything,

Paul: everything.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And his son was like, hang on.

Paul: Right. Um, yeah, his son, who is 40 years older than she, and in historic football news, the Indianapolis Colts defeated the Chicago Bears to win Super Bowl 41. Not Super Bowl was historic because it was the first one ever coached by two African American head coaches with Tony Dungy. Defeating Lovey Smith.

We'll be right back to talk about the episode. Woo.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay. Uh, welcome back. We're back. Okay. So much to talk about. I have so many notes. Can I,

Paul: uh, let me, we were, uh, before we were so rudely interrupted by having to do the Palestine index

Sarah Wayne Callies: that we do voluntarily. 'cause we think it's cool. Right? What

Paul: do you remember about. So we were talking about how it's hard to choke somebody with your hands.

Um, yeah. 'cause you obviously don't wanna exert too much force, [00:12:00] but you also gotta fake it. What do you remember about pulling the thing on my neck? I remember saying, you're not gonna hurt me. Like,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I remember really being concerned about hurting you.

Paul: Yeah. Um, I don't know if you could kill somebody with a.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Garot a garot. It's the first time I'd ever seen that word

Paul: garot. But I think you can. But Gar, I, I, I, I With the thing from a sweatshirt that would, it's so soft. I don't know. Maybe, I dunno. Well,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think you'd have to get it around

Paul: ah, their head,

Sarah Wayne Callies: right? Like pulling up like that you could probably hurt somebody, but I think you'd probably have to like get the pieces all the way around.

I'm not sure. I do know that it was important to me that like, 'cause you. I feel like we landed on, if you get your fingers in it,

Paul: uhhuh that it won't, then you're

Sarah Wayne Callies: controlling it, but your hand was kind of,

Paul: that may be right. That may be right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It feels like, I mean, look, what I [00:13:00] like about it is that we shot it so that both of our faces were on camera at the same time.

Paul: I remember that being the discussion or you about No, you felt safe because the, the chair was between us. I felt safe because maybe my fingers, um, yeah. And I remember it was one of those great, no acting required things, like somebody wraps some shit around your neck and starts pulling. It's like you respond.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Your body does a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah. You don't have to fake

Paul: it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I do remember like. Doing more face acting than I probably would have otherwise to compensate for the fact that I wasn't really put like uhhuh. I just remember at the time being like, ah, yeah, because I'm not pull, you know what I mean?

Like, it's like that tension goes somewhere in your body. Mm. Um, the most relevant part of it, I'll be honest, was when Wentworth had to pull me off of you. Ah, I remember he and I talking about. He was like, how do I do this without hurting you? 'cause you're pregnant? And that was a, a [00:14:00] private conversation that we'd had.

And the solution we came with is, as long as your arms are around my ribs, you're fine.

Paul: Ooh.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And, but that's not, I mean,

Paul: I know, but So

Sarah Wayne Callies: if you, you can actually tell he's holding me quite high. He's like right under my boobs, on top of my ribs and pulling back. And I'm very much in control of. Because I wanted that moment of like kicking, thrashing.

Yeah. A moment I think is important is us being broken up by Michael and Lincoln and, and trying like all hell to get back to each other.

Paul: I, I remember, I, I feel like Kellerman coming back after you.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm.

Paul: I don't remember. I think it probably was in the script. I don't remember. I just remember Dominic being like, yeah, try to get through me.

It's gonna be fine. I was like, okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm, I'm not at all worried. I'm about trying to stop you. I'm, I'm not worried. [00:15:00] Yeah, yeah. Don't hurt yourself on my biceps. Uh, yeah. Um,

you know. We talked about this a little bit on the rewatch, but one of the things that I love is that there is a minute where Lincoln is the adult in the room. Mm. And that happens so rarely go to the other side of the car. But again, it's one of those things that say what?

Paul: Where he's like, go, you guys separate.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Like, you go that way. You go that way. Oh. And again, it's a, it feels like, oh, he's done this. He's broken fights up. He's been the guy in juvie who's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I can actually. Which is similar to

Paul: haywire, similar to uh, how haywire is in, sorry, not haywire, how C note is in the diner.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul: Like, like how do I de, how do I deescalate this situation?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. You learned something about who they have been by their current actions, and I

Paul: think that's really, um, you mentioned, uh, at the scene. When we're reunited and Michael goes after Klerman, [00:16:00] you said, oh, this is a hard thing for him to play when someone's asking you to do another thing.

What did you mean by that?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay. So what the ask of him is in that moment. Are you frozen? Nope. Okay. Um, I couldn't tell. Uh, I

Paul: just like this.

Sarah Wayne Callies: This is just my resting face. Um, okay, so the ask of him in that moment is you just found out off camera, which I think is very smart, that this person you care so much about was genuinely tortured,

Paul: um, and left to die.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And left to die by the person who you have chosen to trust. Uhhuh. Unbeknownst to you, you've got all those emotions. [00:17:00] You would have said something to your brother like, let's get him around the corner and fucking kill him, or whatever. You know what I mean? But like they come around the corner and it's pretty clear that at least Michael.

Is looking for some kind of logical or illogical revenge. Is Dominic trying to

Paul: stop? Is is Lincoln trying to stop him? I actually don't remember.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It almost feels well. Okay. So I think, no, not initially until Kellerman goes, I know what that key is for, you need me? Mm-hmm. Right. So I, I think. Lincoln's journey is, yeah.

Fuck it. I've been wanting to kill this guy for a long time. Um, like pretty much since we met, his instincts have been screaming, don't trust, don't trust, don't trust. And then Kellerman turns out to have a piece of information. Mm-hmm. That's important. And I like that they know we're not gonna torture it out of him.

We're not gonna, he like, he's not gonna tell us until we're [00:18:00] there. So on the one hand, Michael has this powerful drive for revenge and to exert some control at a time when he's totally out of control. And then he has the competing need to get what he needs from Kellerman. And so it's the, you hurt my girlfriend, I wanna hurt you.

You have a piece of information that might help my brother. That's a big. It's a tough thing to play. The moment of choosing to stand down.

Paul: Oh my god, it's so,

Sarah Wayne Callies: and it happens all the time in tv.

Paul: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Lead character, the decision lead

Paul: character. Lead character, yeah. And like personal emotions feeling versus a practical comp, uh, a thing they have to do.

Uh, and those two things being in, yeah, I guess that's,

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:19:00] but it's really hard and it's often

I find them very challenging to play. Mm-hmm. I find if I'm shooting one of those scenes, the actors are always like, edgy about it. Mm-hmm. 'cause it's like this doesn't feel, you know, like, um, and I think the thing I really respected in the choices that the writers made for that whole sequence. From Sarah getting off the train to them deciding not to kill Kellerman Peren, yet nothing personal is the economy of language, right?

Like we don't need to see the scene where Sarah says, this is what happened to me because we saw it happen to her, and we don't want the audience to get ahead of us. And Sarah and Michael reunite. This time not I'm getting out of a car. What the fuck Your plan is what? There's no [00:20:00] plan.

Paul: Mm,

Sarah Wayne Callies: but I'm all in.

Whatever the plan is, I'm all

Paul: in here. I'm here 'cause I'm all in.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm here also. Um, and it's all wordless. And I love that

Paul: the scene when you greet each other and then the thing with the hair, I wonder if there was a line there or if there wasn't anything acknowledging it, but he like, touches your hair and you're like, oh yeah, well, it's so char, it's so charming and, and there's something so boy, girl, about it.

There's something, so like I cut my hair and you didn't say anything. Like, it's like, and he does say something, you know, it's like a little, it's very boyfriend girlfriend. Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm trying to remember now that you mentioned there were words there and it was like, it was some version of we, like,

Paul: it's, we don't need to say it.

Your hair's different. Mm-hmm. And it

Sarah Wayne Callies: was like, yeah, I needed a change. Like, mm-hmm. There's also an intimacy because they so rarely touch, right. For him to touch her hair. Yeah,

Paul: I agree.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um,

Paul: it's a really charming moment. [00:21:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: I love that. I love the number of lines Wentworth just takes out because he's like, you'll get it on my face.

It'll be there. I have to to that in the

Paul: uh. Bathroom scene, which can we talk about? Are we ready to talk about the bathroom scene? Are we up, are we up to it? Uh, we're up to it. Uh, first of all, we were talking in the, we were talking in the rewatch about how well that is shot because that bathroom was small, so small, this trained bathroom, and you don't want them on top of each other at the beginning of the scene, you, and you need somewhere to go in the middle of that scene.

So what they did was you're sitting on the sink, he's standing across from you, but they're shooting him in the mirror. But you're also facing each other. It looks like you're 10 feet apart when you're probably two feet apart.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And you get both people's faces, even though,

Paul: yeah, I don't know how they did it, but we're facing each other really good.

And then the way you guys play it, it's just, it's really [00:22:00] beautiful and the, the thanks amount of time you take with it is great. And then, um, you saying that you fell in love with him is great. But also, and I don't know if you asked for this or anything, the kind of recap of where you are, like three weeks ago I was a doctor.

And here I am now, but also I'm in love with you. Is is just great. It's also, also, we do it

Sarah Wayne Callies: rarely in the show, which is talk about how long in real time it's been. Yeah, yeah. You know, 'cause it's like three weeks ago I was a doctor, but that was 16 episodes ago. Right? A year and a half. Which is

Paul: in real time.

Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. It's been so, so long. Um,

Paul: also his, the expression on his face. When he's, before you even say falling in love with you of like, this is what's happened to me since I met you. Mm. [00:23:00] It's really an amazing. A piece of work on his part listening to you do your amazing work, which is he's just taking it in.

He has a look on his face we have not seen in the show before, which is this kind of love. I mean, it's a look of love. Interesting. But it's also, if there's sympathy in it, there's care in it. Um, and it's a softness we have not seen on his face. Huh. It's really lovely. You guys. The, like your guys chemistry is really palpable.

It really works.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, first of all, I have to give my, I have to send flowers to Wentworth for two reasons. Number one, he was willing to kiss a girl who'd been barfing all day. That's, I mean, I brushed my teeth, I had all the gum and all the mints and whatever, but it's like when you know that your friend has been running to the bathroom to throw up sandwiches all day.

Yeah. And you're like, now I get to kiss her. Yeah. Um, but what's interesting is I think there was a little bit of a meta thing. [00:24:00] Going on in that he was very protective of me Oh. In those weeks. Sure. Where he knew that I was pregnant and that I was aware that I might not, that the pregnancy might not stick.

Oh gosh. And that I was afraid to tell anybody. Mm-hmm. But that I needed one person on set to know and he was my good friend. Mm-hmm. And so that, that. Care I, which is not to say that like he's an amazing actor. Of course if all of that was absent, but like, even the place I noticed it is when we first sat down on the train and he's like, you okay?

There was a part of me that was like, he kept doing that all day. You all right? You know, and be like, yeah, I'm, you know, growing a human, uh, thrown up and that, um. That mutual care. Not to mention in some ways that list of like, here are the things that have happened since I met you. You got super [00:25:00] famous.

You hate it. You feel exposed, you, you know what I mean? Like, we're kind of on this ride together, I think. I think those things sort of add up. Mm-hmm. Um, and I love how broken they are. I love that like. For all of the things that they feel for each other.

Fir. First of all, I'm sure that the first thing they tell you when you go to work and a person is not, Don's not jump, fall in love with the

Paul: inmates.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm sure. And I, in some ways, I think it's funny that Sarah almost concoct that because that's the closest she, you know what I mean? Like page one of the, so you're working at a prison,

Paul: don't fall in love with the

Sarah Wayne Callies: inmates.

It's not, don't fall in love with the inmates.

Paul: Um, um, I'll bet there is that for. I bet there they do say, I mean, they may put it in more blunt terms. Sure, yeah. Um, but, you know, fraternizing if you will, fraternizing if you will. [00:26:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, yeah. Anyway, fun stuff to shoot. Uh, and I will say we didn't fight them on it for all the other times that we've been like, no, not kissing, no not doing this.

We're like, no, no. Yeah. Now feels right. Um,

Paul: also, it's, it's. It feels right. It's under duress. Under duress may be the wrong word, but you know what I mean. It's, it's a, under duress is

Sarah Wayne Callies: a subtitle of the entire show.

Paul: It's a snuck, you know, it's a snuck moment. Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah,

Paul: yeah. And it's of course, rudely interrupted.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Rudely interrupted by the

Paul: state police or whomever,

Sarah Wayne Callies: by the state police who we ran off the actual road. I, I mean, obviously we weren't there for that part of the scene when they ran an actual train into four actual cars. And clearly there's a camera at track level for that shock. Yeah. It goes over

Paul: it. It goes over it.

It's how do you do that? Pro You dig a t tr you dig a re pro, you dig a No, this is before GoPro. You dig a trench, I [00:27:00] think is what you do.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You'd have to, yeah. I mean, they cut out of it pretty quickly. Um, so they didn't lost a camera.

Paul: Didn't. Right, right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You know, um, yeah, yeah, yeah. You call Panavision and you're like, Hey, do you have a camera that you don't need back at any time soon?

Because we're gonna run a train over it. It wa I mean the production value on that, like the shot of you and Dom leaning out, the moving train is so beautiful. The train hitting those cars. There's, and the stuntmen, there's, there's

Paul: also an amazing shot where they must have been in, in a car with a crane or maybe it was a, I don't know.

Yeah, with, could have been a second Cam. Camera cars. Yeah. And they're running alongside through the trees, watching the train. Yeah. And then there's the roof stuff, which must have been shot with a helicopter. Also could have been shot with a car, I guess with a really high crane. But that seems,

Sarah Wayne Callies: but it goes on so long.

I mean, what's interesting is we had a helicopter that day because the [00:28:00] helicopter's in the show, I wondered if they've rented the helicopter for the day and we're like, okay, so half of the day it's gonna be shooting and the other half of the day it's gonna gonna be filmed camera. And the helicopter was

Paul: like, look, you guys, I wanna do all my on camera stuff in the morning.

I'm gonna be really wiped out. So. I'm talking about the helicopters demands and then, and I need green m and m and the green m mss. And in the afternoon I can do some shooting for you. But really I gotta get my sleep and, and

Sarah Wayne Callies: I need eye patches,

Paul: right? I need eye patches 'cause I look really fat float floating under a hundred feet.

Oh, I have a question. You say in the bathroom scene I'm not using, which is a miracle.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm.

Paul: That, that feels like something you would've asked. To be added. Do you remember? 'cause you seem to be the one, uh, that writers were tracking so many different things. You seem to be one, tracking that journey for Sarah and, and you, you know, which is, I don't [00:29:00] even remember if you said or Sarah.

Or Sarah says, and it's a miracle. I mean, like, if you haven't used in the last three weeks, like how many tests? My God. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Especially after overdosing. Like it's barely mm. It's barely outta your system. Oof. Um, you know, I honestly don't remember that, but I do, I think you're right that I felt like if we're gonna have, if being in recovery is gonna be a part of a character, it's gotta be a part of a character.

It can't just be like, we need her in a scene where it's not just a backstory like hits on her and where Right. The next season, you know, Lance can meet her there. Right. Um.

Paul: Well, but you made it, or they made it also kind of part and parcel why she ends up working in a prison. I mean, it's all part of the same journey.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: For sure. For sure. But you know, Wentworth always Wentworth tracked, things like that too. And you know, he added that, [00:30:00] he added that line somewhere, I think in season one, or no, maybe it's later where he says something about like, this coming from a three toed guy on the run or something like. He was the one who every now and again would be like, don't forget guys, you cut out, or an eight toed guy.

He's like, don't forget a Bootsy cut off two of my fucking toes. So I can't stand on one foot on that. You know, like just tracking the things for our characters that happen to us. Yeah. Because some

Paul: things you have to let go and so some things become very, very germane, as you would say.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right, right. Um.

This, you mentioned something about Rockman and justice. Um, as we were talking about these scenes, I was wondering, oh, sorry, Rockman. And so

Paul: here's a scene that does not serve the overall plot at all. Like zero, like that whole, whole storyline, which you could call the. B story really. Or maybe you call haywire the B story.[00:31:00]

I don't know. And, and, and teabag. Yeah. And I mean, maybe they're all equal B stories, or BI mean, but the B,

Sarah Wayne Callies: BB,

Paul: the C story is five scenes, right? It's not, yeah, it's substantial. Yeah, it's substantial. Um, so why, like, what is it? It's these, these, these kind of, um, detours, it shows, um. I mean, it's great drama.

Like you think, you know, how is he gonna ev uh, evade the authorities? Mm-hmm. And his daughter is sick and there's an urgency there. And it also, I mean, we've already established that he's such a devoted father and husband. Mm-hmm. Um, so I just wonder, like, like your director brain or your writer brain, what do you say?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, one thing I would say, and this is just in the very beginning, you could do this in two scenes, but we start to see like DeeDee's [00:32:00] getting sicker. Yeah. Right. And so, but you, she's gonna need it. It, so if the question is how are they all gonna get out of this with every one of our convicts? Mm. You've got that like, uh, oh, c note's gonna have to do something besides just stay on the run because his daughter needs medical

Paul: attention.

Sure. But that could have been done in, but

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah, you don't need the whole

Paul: No,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, you know, you're, you're reinforcing the fact that he's a good man. Yeah. And, um, we already knew that, but, and

Paul: yeah, just in the way that we're also like. I mean, for instance, the Hollander teabag thing, it escalates that situation.

'cause it puts, it shoots them out on the road. Yes. Now he's on the road with, uh, this, these three hostages. Yeah. Um, you did say something interesting thematically about like this idea of justice. I [00:33:00] mean, the, the real turn in the, that I thought made it so in interesting and touching is that. Those people don't turn him in.

Right. Right. They know he's a fugitive. Mm-hmm. But they've seen him do these good, save their asses, basically. Mm-hmm. And they help him escape. And there's something about that that gets to this idea of, you know, who's guilty? What's justice? What does it mean to face consequences, et cetera.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Especially counterpoint with lic and mahon.

Who are the arms of justice. Right.

Paul: Who are Yes. And they're doing all this behaving in ways that like Right. Extra judicial stuff.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right. You know, I mean, Mahome clearly at the end of this episode just hates himself.

Paul: Yeah. And I love that he doesn't wanna do this and he, he, he, he pushes back against Kim and, and loses [00:34:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, and part of what's happening, which is interesting, is the show is now running very low on real villains.

We have teabag, obviously Uhhuh, um, kellerman's on the fence, but kellerman's on the fence. I do love the reveal that it's not Caroline on the other end of the phone. Um, I think that's a, that's one that I remember reading it going, oh, I did not see that coming. Right.

Paul: And so, and I think that there's an interesting, I mean, it's, they're subtle in a way, but.

When Kellerman takes the call, I mean, the end of the teaser is them saying, him saying, I know where the thing is. I mean, she says to him on the phone, Caroline says to him, Caroline says to him, I'm in Chicago. Come meet me. And then he says to the trio, I know what that key does. [00:35:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's in Chicago. It's in

Paul: Chicago.

And so the audience is like, oh, is he lying? Is he taking them

Sarah Wayne Callies: right? Is

Paul: he taking them in? And he's actually doing well? He's doing both.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, in your opinion, if, if when you had gotten on the phone with her the second time, where did we have my 35th birthday? And she knew the answer to that Uhhuh and said, everything can be the way it was.

I is kellerman going, okay, fuck it. Here are the boys.

Paul: I still think he. I, I think he's smart enough to be playing all the angles. I still think he wants to know what Governor Retti gave his daughter. About this conspiracy that's in that box. So I still think, right, he goes either with them or without them to see what's in there and what it does before he would turn them over because he has, he has this ultimate bargaining chip.

Right? Right. Like, it's so interesting that he never says to her, they, she keeps saying, are they with you? And he keeps saying, don't worry about [00:36:00] it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But you think. There is a world at this point where if it had really been her and she had really said, come back into the fold, I'm sorry, I'll make it right, where he would have said, okay, I've got Burroughs, I've got Scofield, I've got the tape.

Let's go back to where we were with this six months ago.

Paul: Um, I think I wanna be a new

Sarah Wayne Callies: Leo McGarry.

Paul: I think. I think so.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay. Yeah, I mean, I, I don't think there's a right or wrong, it's just, I'm curious about whether your head is like, Nope, he's lost all trust fool me once. No,

Paul: I think he wants, I mean, he's not, he's not, it's interesting.

He has yet to blame her. Right? Right. He's blamed Kim. He'd blamed Kim, maybe the company. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, he could, he's got a very practical, pragmatic political brain, which has justified a lot of his behaviors. Mm-hmm. He understands that she's playing at a higher level now, and that he maybe had to [00:37:00] be a sacrificial pawn, and maybe

Sarah Wayne Callies: she's not aware, and maybe she's not

Paul: aware of the different things.

So if he can come back in there with this, this, this huge piece of valuable, uh, whatever you wanna call it, uh, uh, collateral. Yeah. And yeah, he could, they could be right back to, 'cause I think he does believe in what she's trying to do for the country. So I think mm-hmm. That, mm-hmm. Yeah, he wants to be back in her good graces.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, thanks for that. That's really interesting. I also wrote down,

Paul: but, excuse me, but yeah. Extremely cautiously.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Sure. Well, I mean, in some ways there's an interesting parallel between maho and Beic. And Kellerman and Reynolds, which is, you know, I'm saying I can give you something you want, but I need something in return.

Mm-hmm. And Beek is like, gimme the badge, sign me up. You know? And kellerman's like, I don't, don't treat [00:38:00] me. I feel like the thing that pisses kellerman off the most is like, don't treat me like I'm stupid.

Paul: Don't treat me like I'm stupid. Don't treat me. What? Uh, like I'm stupid. Um, I do remember being there for the haywire jump.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul: Um, and I think maybe it was because they were probably, like Eric Norris said when we interviewed him practicing it for so many days, like we were, we were out in that area where hay wear was on the run. Yeah. And they must have worked on that shit and scouted it for days. 'cause that was a big jump.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And they shot the, like, I didn't realize how many shots above

Paul: and below.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yep. Above and below and the, I mean, you know, that's at least two. Takes of it because you can't shoot above and below at the same time.

Paul: Not, yeah, not then you couldn't. Right. They do it at least twice and then, and then they had to build a scaffolding, I would imagine.

'cause it wasn't just gonna be a cherry picker. 'cause he [00:39:00] jumps off the, because Silas jumps off the thing over camera, so. Mm-hmm. You know, they obviously have to catch him, but that thing was a hundred feet in the air, so they had to build something for him to jump onto safely.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Ugh. Um, also just a moment for the performance.

Like he, it's beautiful. And, and Bill, your heart just breaks and fenner's

Paul: great in it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, they're bo they're both fantastic because it, you see how much it costs mahome to this piece of collateral damage hurts him. Do you know what I mean? He's like, this is a person who's mentally ill.

Paul: It seems, it seems like he's like the, I've gone.

Way over the line now, like I'm gone way over the line also,

Sarah Wayne Callies: you know, for what it's worth, I think, and this is just honest, to sort of circle back a little bit to your question about Rockman and his whole arc, um, just from a practical perspective. Mm-hmm. You're on episode 16 of 22. [00:40:00] You haven't seen the Franklin family in a little bit.

We've been following a little bit more crae. I don't think there's an episode in this entire season except maybe the first, maybe the first, and I don't even know if that one where you have the entire cast, right? Like one way to save money so that you can have a helicopter and a train,

Paul: depending on what the contracts are.

They may have been all shows produced, but Right. Go on.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, they weren't

Paul: really nobody.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh, I mean, I, I believe Wentworth and Dominic were the only ones with that. Oh, really? And so, season one I was in, I think every episode, maybe save one. Um, but season two, the rest of us were fractional. I was, I certainly was.

Yeah. So this time, you know, there wasn't, I. There'd be an episode without su, which saves his fee. There'd be an episode without, you know, and so that's, that's one of the sort of behind the ways, behind the [00:41:00] scenes things. But also, you know, it's episode 16. We wanna see what's up with CDO because we love him and his family's ISS amazing.

And there's a lot of people, but also they've gotta fill some story between now and episode 22 and the season ends.

Paul: Yes. Right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, but what's impressive? It doesn't feel like filler. Gosh, it, no. Do you know what I mean? It really doesn't. It feels like a really interesting moral universe where Yeah, we remind ourselves that sometimes the bad guys are not.

Hmm. Lemme put this a different way sometimes. Oh God. What's that? Um. Um, Ani. DeFranco has a great lyric. Sometimes you've gotta try to understand the grandness of the man behind the petty crimes and let him off easy sometimes. Oh. Um, and obviously they're not petty crimes. The gr well,

Paul: well, I mean, C'S well, breaking out is his big crime.

That's true. I mean, he's totally imprisoned unjustly. [00:42:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's right.

Paul: Right, that's right. I mean, he was a

Sarah Wayne Callies: smuggler, but. Yeah, but with the wink and the nod of his co, and then he got turned in for doing the right thing. Oh, that's right. Which is, yeah.

Paul: So he's really our kind of purest, right. Innocent in a way.

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's right.

Paul: All right. Should we wrap it up? We should wrap this. Let's take one more. Let's take one more. Let's take one more break and come right back. Um, with not fan questions. We have a special thing instead of fan questions,

Sarah Wayne Callies: we have a special fan thing. All right,

Paul: let's take a break.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And we're back. Hi. Hi. Um, okay, so in lieu of fan questions this week we, one of you guys sent us a beautiful email, uh, that we wanted to read. I'm, uh, redacting his last name. Because he's a minor, but his name is Alex o from Australia. He emailed us this. Paul, do you wanna read it

Paul: Dear Sarah Wayne Callies and Paul [00:43:00] Adelstein.

My name is Alex and I'm 12 years old. I recently discovered prison break on Netflix and since then I have been obsessed. I've watched it four times and fall asleep to the podcast every night. That's so sweet. I'm from, he hears our voices and he's like, yeah, I am from Australia and I've gotten my grandpa.

Mom and many friends hooked on the show. I'm turning 13 soon and the best birthday gift would be if you could read my email on the PO podcast. Everyone involved with the show and podcast is amazingly talented. You guys are incredible. Big Orange Heart from Alex.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Happy birthday, Alex. Happy

Paul: birthday. Alex, thank you so much for writing us.

Thank you for watching the show and listening to the podcast. Hang on. What? Hang on. Yes.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Because you're good at this kind of thing, would you now read it with an Australian accent?

Paul: No. I have a terrible Australian accent.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Damn. Can you, can you do your best, Dominic?

Paul: Nah. Na na.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Happy birthday, Alex. Happy birthday, Alex.

You're so [00:44:00] sweet. We love you. Um,

Paul: yeah, thank you so much and happy birthday. Uh, and thanks everyone for listening. As always. Check out our watch party episodes. You can watch a show in real time with us. Uh, join the watch parties on the Patreon link. Um, that link is on the show page wherever you're listening right now, or on the link at Prison Break Podcast, uh, on Instagram in our bio.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Also our merch is available. Yeah, at the same places. Uh, and for those of you who wanna listen, um, or watch in a language other than English or just wanna see the video of us talking dueling hats with patches, uh, we're on YouTube at Prison Break Podcast. Thank you. And please be excellent to each other.

Times are tough. Hold each other close, be kind.

Paul: Agreed.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, and Paul, you know what?

Paul: What?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Prison Breaking with Sarah Paul is a caliber studio

Paul: production. Your hosts have been inmates, Sarah Wayne Callis and Paul Edelstein.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Our prison warden is producer Ben Haber.

Paul: Cutting us up in the yard is Editor Luke Singer.

Sarah Wayne Callies: The front man of our [00:45:00] jailhouse rock band is still Paul Edelstein, who still made all of our music every

Paul: week grinding it out every week. Our prison yard tattoo artist, logo, brand designer is John Nunzio at Little Big Brands. Check them out, www little big brands.com

Sarah Wayne Callies: Prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a caliber studio production.

Thank you for listening, and Alex, thanks for listening. Happy birthday again if you've managed to stay awake this long. Bye y'all. Bye guys.