Narrator: This podcast is intended to support UK healthcare

professionals with education.

The information provided in this podcast is not a substitute for professional

medical advice or treatment, and patients are encouraged to consult

healthcare providers, including nurses for any medical questions or concerns.

Hannah: Welcome to Stoma and Continence Conversations from Coloplast Professional.

Where healthcare professionals and experts by experience discuss the latest

hot topics in the worlds of stoma, continence, care, and specialist practice.

I'm Hannah Patterson.

I've worked in specialist care and I'm currently the ostomy Care Associate

education manager at Coloplast.

This time we are talking about mental health.

Keith: I'm not just a walking bladder.

There's a lot more to me than that.

Dani: You forget.

We're all in this profession to care for people.

We forget to take care of ourselves a little bit sometimes.

I've been doing it since I was 14 and there are still

days where it gets me down.

Hannah: Hello and welcome to the podcast.

Uh, as we know, this week is both Mental Health Awareness Week and

also International Nurses Week.

So.

I thought, I mean it's an important topic all year round, but what

better week to really get down that route of mental health discussion?

So I am once again joined by two wonderful experts by experience

our Coli Plus ambassadors.

You have met them both before, but I will let them do another

little introduction to themselves.

So I'm joined by Danny and Keith.

So in the spirit of Ladies first, Danny, do you want to just give the listeners

a quick reminder about yourself?

Dani: Hi everybody.

I'm Danny.

I'm 42 and I live in Winchester and I worked in anesthetics and

surgery for 20 years and I have been using ISC most of my adult life.

And I started when I was a teenager and I've been using it

full-time now for about five years.

Hannah: Thanks Danny.

Nice to have you back.

And Keith.

Keith: Hi everybody.

My name's Keith and um, I'm a mental health nurse, um, by profession, but

I've worked in higher education until November when I, I've retired and I've got

benign prostate hyperplasia and I've been using intermittent self catheterization

now for probably about six years.

Hannah: Thanks Keith, and again, thank you so much for coming back and joining me.

Now, the reason I chose you two guys was obviously you've got your absolute

passion from a patient perspective regarding mental health, but you've

also got medical background as well.

So Keith, your mental health nurse, and Danny, you, as you said, you

worked in theater design aesthetics, so you are both able to look at this.

Topic from two different sides of things, I think, which is really, really important

and why it's so nice to have you guys on, because I think it's not just, yes,

we look at the mental health patients, but actually mental health for somebody

that's working in that environment as well, where you are dealing with tricky

situations is so important as well.

So Danny, I want you to look first of all, from your patient perspective.

How much of an impact has ISC had on your mental health over the years?

Dani: I think it's had a huge impact and it's actually come full circle, I find.

So as we've spoken about before, my initial start with ISE was,

was a negative experience.

It wasn't a positive one as a teenager, um, I had no training or.

Really any support bladder nurses didn't really exist then.

I was just handed a bag and of products and told to go home and get on with

it while I was in urinary retention.

Um, and you know, that did.

Really negatively impact me at the time, and especially as, as a teenager, it was

very hard to, to go from what had been a fairly normal life to, to this new place.

And I did really, really struggle with my mental health as a teenager

and, you know, experience bullying because of it at school, and felt

that I was completely separate and different to my peers because of it.

And there wasn't really any support or anywhere that I could go to access

advice or help or support in any form other than through my family and

occasionally speaking with my, my medical professionals at the hospital, but

there just wasn't anything but coming back around to it and using ISE now as

an adult in my thirties and forties.

I've been overwhelmed by the difference of how much support I've received this

time round, how different it is, and that there is a lovely little community

that we have now that I've, that I'm part of and so happy to be a part of.

And although ISC has to be part of my, my daily routine and my life, I

don't feel negatively about it anymore.

And I feel that actually I've been able, empowered, I. Through my, my new routine

and where I'm currently at to, I feel, I feel like I've reached somewhere really

positive with my mental health in terms of the connection between the two.

Hannah: Hey, that's so lovely to hear that.

I say you've almost.

Flip around and come full circle.

You've gone from a very negative point in your early years to now you're, you

say you're, you're in such a positive place and uh, is this something you

camira, Keith, did you have early days of low periods of mental health

and then there's been improvements?

Keith: It's a difficult one, difficult one to say really, because it

seems like my issues arrived a lot later than Danny's in as much that.

I was, I was kind of feeling as if I was coming towards the end of

my career and then having to use intermittent self catheterization.

I. It was the realization that I needed some different things to, to occur

and I needed different environments to be in, and that had a psychological

effect on my mental wellbeing.

I felt a little bit ostracized.

I didn't feel as included.

Um, there was things I wanted to see handy things like we've discussed before,

like bins and, and you know, just to preserve your dignity a little bit.

So those kind of things had an impact initially, whereas I didn't

envisage that they possibly would.

I think Danny's right, you know, that sense of community and that has come

about for me being a Coloplast ambassador.

But had that not been there, I think I would've just been

left to God in Providence.

I don't think the healthcare set up around me.

Is, is offering me much support.

But having said that, there's, there's a lot more people with more

serious conditions that need that, that, that I, I'm not getting.

But I don't necessarily have a hotline to anybody that can solve any problems.

Should I have them, I would have to go back through the GP and things.

So I've, I've nurtured a way and managed a way of, of self-management, I think,

and you just take the good days with the bad days, and, and some days are

better than others, primarily because.

I want my level of functioning to be back where it was.

I want, I want the ability to go out and enjoy life and have the

quality of life that I did before.

So I'm hell bent on not allowing, um, intermittent self

catheterization to stop that

Hannah: absolute.

And I love the fact that you mentioned that we're quality of life there, and

I think that is such an important thing for IC is, but almost anybody living

with any sort of health condition that actually having a quality of life.

Is so, so important.

And sometimes quality of life can just be, so I said, well, like you said,

Keith, be able to go to the toilet and not feeling like there, there's an issue

when you're in that toilet that you know, no bins or anything like that.

That to me is like part of your quality of life.

Be able to pop out to the toilet if you need to in a public place and not

feeling like there's an issue there.

Be able to go out, being able to do your day to day.

And I think a lot of people, I mean, Danny, you.

You'll probably look at this from a different angle 'cause it's been so

much a part of your life growing up.

But I think for people that are potentially coming into things

later, like you said Keith

Keith: mm-hmm.

Hannah: It's almost completely reversing what you're used to and it makes you

look at things in a different angle.

Whereas Danny, you've had to constantly look at things through

a different life lens almost.

And I think it's almost two different aspects of mental health there.

You've got people that are mourning the life that they used to have.

But then people that are almost mourning a life that they've never had, a life that

they've never had, would, would you say that's accurate, Danny, in that respect?

Dani: Yeah.

I mean, when I first started I was 14, and not only was I recovering

from major bowel surgery and this new SNOO diagnosis that was going to

affect me for the rest of my life.

It, there was just no support there at all, and what that made me do was

want to run away from it, pretend it wasn't happening, and I felt incredibly

isolated and very, very, very alone.

And I didn't feel that I could talk to anybody and I couldn't share that

experience with with friends because.

I don't think they would ever have heard of it.

I don't think they would even know what a catheter was back then.

And I already felt different enough.

It made me want to make sure that nobody ever knew that about me

and that I was pretending to be this normal person and having to

catheterize almost in secret, which made the whole experience even worse.

And of course back then there wasn't any provision in public

toilets or or anything like that.

So what it meant for me was I spent a long.

Part of my teenage years isolated and alone at home because it was the only

place that I felt that I could safely ize.

And then where I've got to is.

Lovely that I've found a place now where I don't want anybody to ever feel like that.

I don't want anybody to feel as alone as I felt or get to the

very dark places with my mental health that I was in my twenties.

Now I'm able to be able to speak about it, and it is so freeing to be able to

say to people, this is my experience.

This is why I have to do it.

This is the condition.

Do you want to know a little bit more about it?

Do you want to ask me some questions?

And I love that I'm able to now help educate people on it because

hopefully that does allow little bits of change to creep in.

And if anything, being able to speak about it and be free about who I am and what

I need to do just to live my daily life.

It has been freeing because it, it's an, an acceptance, I think, and

it's allowed me to say it's okay.

And hopefully it's actually helped my mental health, I think, by

speaking about it and also having this lovely community that we have.

Hannah: Yeah.

It's almost cathartic, isn't it?

Being able to speak about something.

It, it's, it's an old adage, isn't it A problem shared is a problem halved almost.

And keep, you've gotta be looking at things from really, and I

think we spoke about it on podcast last year, Keith, didn't we?

That having been, I. Working in mental health, but now having experienced

issues where you're going to suffer with issues for your mental health,

were you able to pull on any of your, your previous resources

that you'd used to help yourself?

Keith: It's a difficult one really, isn't it?

You know, because you can give the best sound advice for other people because it's

objective, it's the subjectivity of it.

And

Hannah: yeah, I was just

Keith: thinking as Danny was talking there, I remembered how dirty I felt.

And I don't know why.

I just felt dirty.

I felt unclean.

I felt as if I was going to be a burden to the workplace, that I was

going to need a bin, and I was going to need certain things in place just

to allow me to continue to do the job at the same standard I was doing.

You know, they took bins away.

I keep going on about bins, I apologize.

But they took the bins away because Covid was over and they were no

longer using paper towels and there wasn't the foresight and that kind of.

He said angered me.

It, it wasn't so much anger, but frustrated me certainly that, you

know, I, I, I had to go into the kitchen and, and, you know, discreetly

dispose of a catheter wrapped up in, in tissue or in a, in a plastic bag

in a bin that, you know, could have quite easily been left in the toilets.

So there's those kind of things.

So those, those challenges did come about, but I guess I just

kind of tried to be practical about how I was going to overcome them.

I. And determined that I was going to do things.

So I mean, just recently, earlier this year, I went on a long haul kinda holiday

and the overriding worry throughout the whole travel, because I was changing

planes, was my suitcase doesn't make it.

How, how will I get a hold of me catheters, how will I be able to access

kind of, you know, the, the facilities to, to kind of empty me bladder?

So I was carrying about 20 I. In a ruck sack and, and had 90, in me case, it, it

was, it was, you know, had more, more kind of catheters in there than, than I needed.

But it was just like the reassurance of that.

Thankfully there was no issues and everything worked out absolutely

fine, but it's those little.

Moments of anguish and challenges that, that kind of like

Hannah: little moments of mental burden there that you've got.

Almost like that I always thought So it's like that little devil on your

shoulder telling you that worst case scenario, whispering in you going,

your suitcase is gonna get lasting.

That's right.

Yeah.

You're not gonna get what you need.

Whereas in reality, it doesn't happen very often.

Oh, no, no.

And, and as you said, it was absolutely fine now.

Is this something that you possibly relate to as well?

Danny, I know you spoke home at an earlier podcast that you've

recently traveled for the first time.

Was that a moment that you had those, those little moments of

almost like new anguish that you'd not become familiar with before

because it was such a new experience?

Dani: Yeah.

I think for anybody, when you have a, a life.

Changing, um, diagnosis or needing to use intermittent healthcare products.

I think you spend maybe a good couple of years achieving

goals, but also having firsts.

So the first time that you have to use a public toilet, the first time that

you have to catheterize at work, and ultimately you find ways around it and you

overcome it, but you live in a permanent state of kind of fear and trepidation.

What if?

What if there isn't the provision I need?

What if the toilets are dirty for a very long time?

I worried so much about gems because I have that immune deficiency as

well and get such bad infections.

And again, that led me to not leaving the house and being really

concerned about going at work.

And I think as a healthcare professional as well, it's so unnatural for us.

We are there to focus our whole attention on our patients.

We don't even normally consider ourselves half the time we

don't get lunch or breaks.

And that's fine because we are there to focus on our patients and to

suddenly have to very much consider yourself and your needs is alien to a

lot of, uh, healthcare professionals.

And, but you know that you have to do this four to six times

a day in a very long shift.

So.

There was always those firsts, and for me, like, like he said, I put off going

on holiday for 10 years because of the worry of what if I lose my supplies?

What if they lose my luggage?

What if I struggle when I'm out there?

What if the toilets aren't clean enough and it put me, it

was so bad, the worry, it was.

Justified in my head that it was a reason to not go on holiday.

And then I finally took the plunge last year and went on a cruise.

And what a silly thing for me to have done.

You know, it did take preparation.

It did take planning, and I did have to take extra supplies.

But do you know what?

Having found a good tick list and following the advice and

getting some support with it.

I had the most amazing time on my first cruise and it won't be my last.

Hannah: I was gonna say, you've already booked another one, haven't you?

I

Dani: have.

I have.

We have for November and it opened, it did knock down a lot of the barriers

and it did teach me that it is justified to have these worries, re concerns.

So if anything, my life has become a little bit about.

Forward planning and making sure that I, I literally have catheter

supplies in every single ruck I can handbag that I own in the car.

Just for those, I guess spontaneity is maybe out a little bit, but just

for those, just in case moments, but.

That just because that's the case, it doesn't mean I can't say

yes to opportunities and that I shouldn't be limiting myself, and

I can go on holiday, I can go for weekends away, and I'm just shocked.

It took me so long to realize it, but I promise now I'm gonna

enjoy every single moment of it.

Hannah: Glad to hear it.

Keith: It's regaining control, isn't it?

Where it, that's been taken away from you?

'cause, you know, any, any kind of aspect of control that you lose within your life.

You, you, I don't know whether you mourn it, but you certainly

feel it, it has an impact.

Mm-hmm.

And so, you know, to regain that again, is, is kind of such a welcoming thing.

It's, it's almost celebratory

Dani: and establishing a new routine.

It is new

Hannah: Coloplast Professional offers a lot of educational material for specialist

nurses and healthcare professionals.

Visit Coloplast professional.co.uk to find out more.

You both kind of touched on the fact that, that being healthcare

professionals, you are, that used to looking after everybody else.

You don't necessarily, as nurses, healthcare professionals, they

are some of the worst people at looking after themselves, especially

mentally, things like that.

You, you do you, you see nurses burnout completely and now all

of a sudden you are having to go, well actually, do you know what?

I have to put myself.

Higher up the list.

Now, I would say top of the list, but I know anyone that's ever

worked in healthcare will never put themselves top of the list.

But they'll, they may raise themselves up the list a bit, but it

is that natural, nurturing, caring personality that you've got and you

wanna do things for other people.

And to that comes away with control again, because you are actually having to put

somebody else in control of your destiny.

Almost at that point, you're, you are giving away some of that control

and it, it, it, it is hard and I can imagine both you having come from

that background, you are used to doing everything for everybody else.

You looking after person, all of a sudden you are the one, the other

side, it is a bit like, oh gosh, this is a different place to be.

Keith: You find yourself doing strange things as well.

'cause for me.

I consider, what, what would it be like if somebody saw me using

a catheter, obviously in a toilet?

Not in, not in any way public.

But you, you think that what, what would they, what would they be thinking?

And I went, while I was away, I think it was in a shopping center

somewhere, but the, the, the stalls, the cubicles were, were taken.

And I was stood waiting for a couple of minutes, and yet there was a, a, a u,

like a shared one along, along the wall.

And I thought if I'm discreet and stand in the corner, I could use my catheter here.

And, and somebody coming in would only see me back.

So for the first time, I, I used my catheter in a, in a, like a shared u Rh.

It wouldn't be everywhere.

I wouldn't, I certainly wouldn't do that at the football ground, you

know, or, or anything like that, you know, even out at the theater.

But on that occasion, you know, but I was, all the time I was thinking, what would it

look like if somebody saw me doing this?

Would, would they understand, would they think I was doing something

perverse or you know, or, or strange.

It goes

Hannah: back to that devil on your shoulder again, doesn't it?

Going, somebody's gonna be looking at you, somebody's gonna be talking about you.

Yeah.

Is that something that you found, Danny?

Dani: Yeah, I think I found it very hard to play both roles, so I've got Okay.

With being Danny, the patient, um, Danny, who has to catheterize at home.

But once I put on that uniform or those scrubs, I was somebody else and I had

a really strange experience where I had taken, I'd got to a really bad

place of not going to the toilet and really being very naughty and kept

really izing before I went to work.

And when I came home and I, I, it, it was not a good time.

And I had a word with myself and said, okay, this week I'm gonna be brave and

I'm gonna use the disabled toilets on my floor because the staff toilets didn't

have, like Keith said, they, they're tiny cubicles and they didn't have

any space for me to put my products.

It wasn't working.

So I thought, I'm gonna be brave and use the disabled toilet

probably for the first time.

I completely forgot.

I was in my uniform and I came out of the toilet and somebody completely berated

me and said, you shouldn't be using that.

You should be using a staff toilet and you are not disabled.

And it comes down to that visible idea of what disability

is and hidden disabilities.

And I went home so upset because I, I just needed to pee to be able to get

back into theaters quickly and do my job.

And yet I was being kind of told off for using.

The place I needed to use.

And it was such a strange place to be that after that it made me think, oh,

I just won't, I just won't at work.

And of course, you can't do that on a long day shift.

You have to No, go to the toilet, but.

After that, I did think this isn't right, this isn't working.

And I would just encourage anybody out there in the same position now

to speak to occupational health and, and get certain things put in

place to allow you to exercise your right, to have your needs met and.

You do have to stand up for yourself a little bit for and and advocate for

yourself and say, I will need to go to the bathroom at certain points of the day.

So that might mean needing to be relieved or excused from theater.

And once I got over the fear of being judged and not being seen as one of the

team, or not capable to do my job anymore, nobody had anything to say about it.

Only why hadn't I told them sooner.

And was there anything else they could do to help?

You forget, we're all in this profession to care for people.

We forget to take care of ourselves a little bit sometimes.

Hannah: Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

I think, and it was a quote that I think I heard during Covid, we're all in the

same storm, but we're not necessarily in the same boat, so we're all going

through the same things in life together.

But that doesn't mean your boat is the same as somebody else's.

Your boat might have a bit of a hole in my boat, might be a little bit

wonky, but we're all under that same storm and in that same situation.

And we always talk about if you don't know, you don't know, ask questions,

make statements, and it's maybe so sad when you said about the disabled toy.

So because it's something that you hear so often with ISC users like yourselves,

we hear it from the stoma community as well, that this judgment that.

And it, it's, it's really sad that still, yeah, we, there's been this campaign for

years now that, but it's still thought of as disability has to be visible.

There's still gotta be, for some people that physical visual there.

Whereas that's not how it always is, and not every disability is visible.

Keith: I have a radar key, but I've never used it.

I'm afraid to use it.

Dani: I have used mine and was very shocked to find, I used it at

Waterloo train station actually coming to a Coloplast event for the very

first time because the, the actual ladies' toilets were, were locked.

I didn't realize that if you use it, somebody else can still get

into the toilet if they use theirs.

Oh.

So I was mid catheterization and somebody walked in, they just

unlocked it with their key walked in.

I was like, hello.

Oh.

Um, but, and that was my, that was me being brave.

I'm gonna use my, my key today.

So that wasn't the best experience, but it is such, you know, it is hard enough to.

Have a hidden disability or any disability and, and chronic illness alongside it.

So we all ca have this already on our shoulders and this burden that we feel

is that we are carrying, but that it's already, you know, maybe affecting our

families and our work life situation.

But to still in this day and age, be confronted by the fact

that having to justify something.

That's just part of our everyday life now.

Mm-hmm.

It's very difficult and it, it definitely does impact your mental health and it, it

does make you think it is very difficult.

Yeah.

Guys,

Hannah: all we're wanting to is go to the toilet.

We're not asking for heaven and earth, we're just asking for

being able to go to the toilet.

Dani: It's such a simple thing.

Everybody has to pee.

Everybody has to poo.

It is a normal bodily function.

We all do it.

We just do it slightly differently and have to put a little bit of

thought into it and use a product.

It certainly isn't something that you should ever have to think

on, and it shouldn't be something you should ever have to justify.

I know so many of us have had these experiences and I'm hoping that it

will change with the sunflower lanyards and much more thought is going into.

The, the plaques on the toilets that say, you know, not all

disabilities are visible.

And like I said to you, I did have that conversation with the

cruise line that I went on to say, you've done really well here.

There's so many disabled access toilets on board that, and that's wonderful.

But can I just mention, like Keith would say, you know, there's

just a few things you need.

You need some bigger bins.

Mm-hmm.

Um, a little petal bin is not gonna be big enough for my, for my bag.

Um, and if you could pop a shelf in as well so that I don't have to put

my products on the floor or on a baby changing unit, that would be great.

And I think throughout society, there's just these still these few

little changes that need to be made.

And just the knowledge of being able to walk into a toilet and it being

ready to go and ready for our needs.

That would help so much because it would take away that constant worry and pressure

that you have before you go into a toilet.

Oh, is this gonna be a problem?

Is this gonna affect my day?

It would just make life so much easier.

Hannah: Absolutely.

Now I'm gonna be greedy.

Today, I, I want two top tips from both of you.

I want one to give to any.

Patients that are feeling like they're struggling with their mental health,

what would be your top tip to them?

And again, I want you to give a top tip to a healthcare professional and how,

what's, what's that one question they could ask that might help support someone?

Uh, who do I pick on first?

Danny, I've gotta stick with the ladies.

First thing.

Sorry, I went ladies first earlier.

I can't back up now.

Dani: Just please know.

That if you are, whether you are new to this with ISC or you and you are just

starting your journey, or even if you've been doing it for a long time, 'cause

I've been doing it since I was 14 and there are still days where it gets me

down and it is normal to feel that way.

This, there will be highs and there will be lows, and I'd love to say to you that

it reaches a point where it's all fine.

There will still be highs and lows, and that's okay, and

that is completely normal.

But what I will say to you is, especially if you are just starting

now, it does feel difficult right now.

It feels like nothing is ever gonna be the same again, and that it's

always gonna be this difficult.

I promise you, with time and patience and the right products and establishing

a routine for you, I promise you it will get easier and that after that point, when

you reach that point, it will be okay.

Surround yourself with people within the community that are going through the same

things you are, and make sure that you've got people like that to talk to, and

it really, really does help, I promise.

Hannah: And how about I say, what would you, what is a one question

nurse that could ask a patient?

Dani: I would say whether it's a case of when I'm admitted to a ward or whether

I'm speaking to a healthcare professional within the community, one thing I would

always like them to consider and maybe ask me would be, you are the expert.

This is your body.

You know what's happening, and you know what's best.

What can I do for you?

Is there anything that you need from me?

You know, whether it's whenever I'm in hospital, they don't often have

my catheters, so it's sort of maybe educating them on which, which ones

I use so they can get that supply.

But I think.

Acknowledging that I'm an expert and that I have a very set routine.

So maybe just asking, you know, you know what you're doing with this?

What, what is it that you need and how can I help you?

Would be really, really good.

Hannah: I love that we often talk within healthcare about nurses

should be more curious, so that's really lovely what you've said.

Then actually being curious, asking those questions.

Thanks Danny.

And now how do you follow that?

Keith?

Go on.

What's your top tip for a patient?

Keith: I

Hannah: was,

Keith: I mean, Danny mentioned talking to people and it seems a bit rich, me saying

that when I, I think that was one of the things I had difficulty with at first,

but it's, it's about not being afraid.

Because I think when you become afraid to talk to people, you get

into the way of catastrophizing things and you suddenly think that using

a catheter is, is a bit freakish.

And so.

You know, try not to go down that, that vicious circle really of catastrophizing

what's happening, happening.

And, and as Danny said, really, you know, we all, we, we all poo.

It's normalizing those bodily functions and it, and it becomes a, a topic

that you're able to discuss then.

So I would, I would give that advice to, to patients.

Really

Hannah: good, really good one there,

Keith: uh, for healthcare.

I would like to see a demonstration of empathy 'cause we talk about it

enough, but you, you know, when somebody connects with you, when they're truly

empathic and, and connect with you and considering my needs in a holistic

way, I'm not just a walking bladder.

There's a lot more to me than that.

And I think that what we've discussed today with regards to

the psychological and mental health aspect of it, the needs and those

kind of things all come together.

You can't treat one without the other.

So just a, a bit of empathy and a bit of understanding around what

it means for me to have a, that quality of life in a holistic way.

Dani: It's not a one size fits all.

Process is it, and we all have different reasons for being here

and using ISC, and it's always nice to have that acknowledged.

And I think we've seen in the community recently, there is a need

for better education on the topic with healthcare professionals.

And I would just say from my experience, if your healthcare professional

that hasn't heard about ISC or urostomies or anything connected

with the topic of catheterization.

Just take it upon yourself to go and read up on it and you know you,

I promise you that will make your patients feel heard and valued,

and it does make such a difference.

Hannah: Thank you both so much.

It's been great to have you both back and always enjoy these podcasts with you guys.

And what an important topic to talk about this week in Mental Health Week.

And hopefully it's given people.

People, a bit of confidence to move forward, whether it be as a nurse,

whether it be as a patient, it's given a little bit of confidence to talk.

So thank you both so much and to everybody listening.

We will see you next time.

Thank you for listening.

To see more of the wide variety of education we offer, please visit

coloplast professional.co.uk.

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