Narrator: This podcast is intended to support UK healthcare

professionals with education.

The information provided in this podcast is not a substitute for professional

medical advice or treatment, and patients are encouraged to consult

healthcare providers, including nurses for any medical questions or concerns.

Hannah: Welcome to Stoma and Continence Conversations from Coloplast Professional.

Where healthcare professionals and experts by experience discuss the latest

hot topics in the worlds of stoma, continence, care, and specialist practice.

I am Hannah Patterson.

I've worked in Specialist Care and I'm currently the Ostomy Care Associate

Education Manager at Coloplast.

This time we are looking at leadership mastery for specialist nurses.

I'm joined by the gruesome twosome as I'm now gonna rename them.

Paul and Emma are back.

Hi guys.

Paul: How you doing?

Hannah: How.

What do you think of the new nickname?

Paul: The gruesome Twosome?

I, I, I'm, I like it.

I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll go with that.

I'll go with that.

Hannah: I like us as a triple threat though.

Maybe The Three Musketeers.

Oh, the Three Musketeers.

This could be like, as we're now into season 12, what do you think

about our new little, like, like the three amigos or something like that?

We could, we could have something like that going on.

Rebrand us.

I'll rebrand us for season 12 on a slightly different note.

Paul, can you believe we're now on season 12 of the podcast?

Paul: No, not at all.

I, I go back and I've been thinking about it over the last few weeks, I think back

to when it was me, I. Karen and Terry who initially started before you did a

fantastic job of taking over the podcasts.

And for those that haven't listened to the back catalog, you know, there are some

fantastic ones back there, but 12 Seasons, I never thought we'd reach 12 seasons.

And I know that they're going from strength to strength to strength,

and I know more and more people are logging onto, um, logging

onto them and listening to them.

So thank, I wanna say thank you to you, thank to everybody who listens because.

Has been 12.

You know, as I say, this is the 12th series, and I think that.

It's fantastic.

You know, so many nurses have given us so many amazing comments and

such amazing feedback, and I just, yeah, I just wanna say thank you to

everybody for, for keeping us going, for allowing us to, to go into our

12th season of, of these podcasts.

So, yes, so thank you to you, thank you to Charles.

He's the unsung hero.

Who, who's the.

He's the producer behind these podcasts, so don't, he's the man,

Hannah: man behind the scenes.

Paul: I don't know whether he's ever been bigged up, um, on a podcast,

but, um, Charles is the one that keeps us all tries to keep us all on, on

track and, um, make us sound good.

Make us sound good.

Um, so a big up to Charles, uh, Charles from Vibrant Sounds.

Um, yeah.

Said the podcast.

Um, who has us going.

And into our 12th seasons.

So, um, and so thank you to him and thank you to everybody as well.

Hannah: I know Paul, we talk a lot about your passions and your particular

favorites, but I know that this subject is quite literally your specialty, isn't it?

I'm a leadership mastery.

Well, considering I have a master's in it.

Yes.

Yeah.

So almost like kind of just going.

The floor is yours on this one because I think leadership, it can be a bit

of a taboo word I think sometimes.

Sometimes people can be a little bit old leadership and people sometimes

have negative connotations of it.

And I suppose why is leadership so important within specialist practice?

Emma?

So I

Emma: think the first thing we have to actually discuss is what is leadership?

'cause I think it's really, really difficult to define.

And I, I've gotta say, I went into my, when I started doing my masters, that

actually you don't have to have a team.

To be a leader.

And there's so many different sort of parts of leadership

that you, you don't realize.

Um, it's having the attributes, the skills, um, the styles of leadership.

I could do a podcast just on, on, on the styles.

Um, but then you look at the things that are part of leadership, like your

project management, your coaching, various other sort of, you know,

other things like sort of defining that sort of what is leadership.

So that theory, that that starting point is what is it, and it's really

difficult to define when you look at specialist nursing and why leadership is

so important in, in specialist practice is because you need all of the different.

Aspects of leadership to be able to do your job and your role.

And you don't necessarily need to have a team to lead, but you might

want a service to lead, for example, and you might want to change things.

So how do you project manage that?

How do you engage your stakeholders?

How do you look at the style of leadership you use?

Because different styles suit different people.

You have to use a different type of style when you are maybe working

with, um, you know, your, your nurses on the ground, so to speak,

to where, you know, strategically thinking you are talking to your, your

managers or your ICBs for example.

So yeah, there's, there's, there's so many reasons why leadership is important,

um, on so many different levels.

And the thing with it is we need to be building it from the start.

From early on in, in nursing because leadership happens at all levels.

Um, you look at the NMC leadership is, is, is, is, is one of our,

was it's part of our code.

And I think as well when you are looking at changing services,

you need to know who to speak to.

Stakeholder management, stakeholder engagement.

If you want to change a service, um, you need to have that awareness of

project management and then coaching.

'cause you.

Coaching people around you.

Um, how does coaching actually help leadership?

And I think it's really important coaching, especially when you get to

your sort of band, six band sevens.

'cause it really makes you that nurse realize what they want to do and how they

want to go forward in their profession.

Hannah: I. What I'm already really, it's so just not that simple.

And I suppose my next question is for you, what made that be your real interest?

What made you think that was where you wanted to head with your master's?

What was it that drove you that direction?

Emma: I think it's because I'd been doing my, my role for 15 years

and I thought, wh where do I go?

What do I want to do?

And at the point I thought, do you know what?

I wanna set up this service.

I want to be able to offer this sort of practice to the, to the patients

in our, in our area, uh, which was cystoscopies and, you know, Botox.

And, um, I wanted to be able to sort of go further within my role and quite quickly

when I started the masters was actually maybe I want to do something different.

I realized actually that succession planning in nursing and succession

planning in healthcare isn't done very well, especially when urology wards

get dissolved into a surgical ward and you lose your generalist, you know,

general sort of specialist nurses on the wards, and there's no development there.

I think it's been seen now in the MHS that leadership is really important

and I, I, I saw, uh, before I left my trust that they're doing different

levels of leadership development.

So they will have a, a, a, an interim, they'll have a, a beginners, they'll have

an intermediate, they'll have an expert.

You know, there's lots of other leadership courses out there.

Hannah: And I'm gonna pull back to one of the very first things that you said,

that leadership doesn't necessarily mean that you need a team because.

This is where it actually makes me think of you, Paul.

'cause I remember at one point in your career you were the sole

stones of a department, weren't you?

So you were the leader, but you didn't have a team.

So what are your thoughts on that?

That what Emma said in that respect that you don't need a team to be a leader.

A

Paul: hundred percent agree.

Absolutely.

A hundred percent agree.

And it is, and it can be, and it can be very, very challenging.

But it's almost when, you know, as a, as a sole worker, as an individual,

it's, and as a specialist nurse, I don't think you can say that you've never got

a team, because as a specialist nurse.

Part of our role, and if anybody doesn't matter what specialty they,

they work in, in specialist nursing is supporting, educating, and

ensuring best practice to the entire.

Hospital on your specialty, whether it's continence care, whether it's

stomach care, diabetes, tissue viability, you have to be a leader.

You have to lead by example.

You have to strive for best practice.

You have to strive for appropriate communication.

You have to be able to flex your leadership style to communicate with.

Different types of nurses, different levels of nurses,

different nursing attitudes, and it is a hundred percent right.

You know, it's that different.

You know, you don't need a line reporting team.

To be a leader, leader as a nurse, we are, we should all be leaders.

And I think that, for me is the key aspect.

It's that thing of we, we do lead.

We lead by example.

And I know that term is passed around an awful lot, but, and I've said it

on multiple podcasts in the past.

We are incredibly privileged to be specialist nurses and it's not about,

I got a job that's Monday to Friday for those people that work as a seven,

a seven day, have a seven day service.

I'm not, you know, I said I'm not ousting you guys, but it's not because specialist

nursing is nine to five Monday to Friday.

No, we are incredibly privileged.

In what we do, and leadership is an integral part of that.

And I'm gonna, I said I'm, I'm, I'm sure we're gonna, this is gonna

come up and I'm almost preempting it, but it's that difference

between management and leadership.

Anybody can manage.

You know, management, you can almost bring somebody off the

streets and just get them to do the management roles and responsibility.

But it is a very, very different person who can be a leader and

almost, you don't need to be the person in charge to be the leader.

Anybody can be that leader.

Yeah.

Hannah: So how can we prepare nurses for leadership other than

doing your wonderful masters, Emma?

Emma: Well, no, I think, I think leadership starts, as I said, leadership

starts at all levels, and I think simple, easy courses nurses can go on early on in

their career, I think is really important.

There's so many different, um.

Leadership, uh, programs out there.

Um, some are free.

Um, some are, they do obviously through via the NHS now.

There's the NHS Leadership Academy that people can, if they're interested

in, it's also having a, a sort of an idea and a vision of where you

want to go in your, in your role.

And where you might best need it.

But yeah, I think, I think it's just, it's starting it, starting

it early, um, and asking for it.

Don't be scared to ask for leadership development.

I think people will jump at, you know, managers will jump at the chance to,

to put you on courses, but we know how difficult it is for getting study

leave at this, um, at the moment.

Um, and I think as well as, as you know, is, look, think outside the box.

You know, shadow people, um, shadow other specialist nurses, shadow other

healthcare professionals because that is also really good to, to sort of

find out where you wanna go and then be able to develop that leadership.

Hannah: Coloplast professional offers a lot of educational material for specialist

nurses and healthcare professionals.

Visit Coloplast professional.co.uk to find out more.

I loved what you said, Paul, that management and leadership

are very different things.

So what are the different qualities or maybe attributes

that are needed between the two?

Because management is a different skill type, so splitting the two.

What are the different attributes and skills that are maybe needed?

Emma: Managing, um, is managing a team.

If you're managing a team, you are looking at, um, how things are run.

Whereas as leadership, you are looking at change.

Paul: For me, it's almost going back to one of our previous webinars where

we were talking about patient-centered care, and I can remember back in the day.

Being on a general surgical ward, I could manage my group of six

to eight patients with not not being funny with my eyes closed.

You know, I was that experienced at being able to manage 6, 8, 10

incredibly complex patients and I could manage their care needs.

And it wasn't, you know, as I say, it was something that we did because

that is what I was trained to do.

If people can remember the patient centered care, you know, podcast

that we spoke about, we spoke about different communication styles.

We, we spoke about, you know, ensuring that we took the patient's wants,

needs, personalized care into account.

For me, that's quite a good representation of management and leadership.

When I was a generalist nurse, I could, I would manage a group of patients because

I said that was just what we need.

You know, that's what happened.

You had bed pressures, you had length, you know, people monitoring length of stay.

You had all of these sorts of things.

You had drugs around breakfast, lunches, teas, theaters.

Dr. What dressings, you know, you had all these things and that

was all about time management.

I managed those individuals and it was what it was.

That's what I had to do.

And I think, but as I went into specialist practice.

I almost became a, I felt like my approach had to change to

become a leader to those patients.

Encouraging coaching, all of those key skills that Emma's already met,

that Emma mentioned at the start.

It's, that's almost the difference between management and for me, putting

management and leadership into a nursing kind of picture is on the wards.

I managed a group of patients.

I was a manager to them in specialist practice.

It was much, it's much more of a leadership role.

It's that encouragement, engaging, communication, supporting,

coaching, all of those soft skills.

Which I don't like calling them soft skills because they're so

hard to do a lot of the time.

But yeah, that's how I kind of interpret, and I would kind of

separate those two, the, the management and the leadership skills I.

Emma: You're right on the, on the, on the leadership side, we are

inspiring and guiding, aren't we?

We want to work towards a goal.

We want to have that change.

And as leaders, we, we wanna create those goals and, and sort

of, you know, mobilize people on board with us really to meet them.

Um, whereas managers are more sort of executing functions and organizing

planning, um, specific tasks,

Hannah: I think it's so important to realize that.

Almost like you say, you can't be a manager and a leader at

the same time in some ways.

Okay.

That, that's what I'm kind of learning from this.

You've got, because it's such different skills, you can't really lead the team

from a manager's perspective for a pa.

I know what I'm trying to say out very well, but it's, it's two such

different things that you've, you can potentially do both, but you've gotta

put on two very different hats to be.

Both, and what a tricky task that is to potentially juggle the two.

So Emma, this is where I'm gonna ask you again now as the, you are the you,

how we say we call our, we say that our ambassadors are experts by experience.

Emma, you are our expert by experience when it comes to leadership.

So, yeah, well,

Emma: leadership was, you know, yes, I did it, but leadership actually

is what brought me here because I realized that succession planning

was so, so important within the NHS, especially in specialist practice.

And I think we've got to nurture.

Our nurses that can come on that, on that journey with us.

You know, when I started specialist practice, I saw a urology, nurse

practitioner, and within a week I said, that's the job I'm gonna do.

So that she was a she.

She inspired me.

She was a leader.

There was no succession planning there for me.

I learned my leadership on the job.

I remember when doing my first assignment about leadership

concepts, I had to think back about a time where I'd shown leadership.

And I was like, well, okay.

I had to think back and I was thinking, okay, I set up a service.

I set up a clinic, I did this, I did that.

And actually going through all of the, the various points, thinking, okay,

well that was stakeholder management.

That was stakeholder engagement.

I used an authoritative style there.

I used a Democratic style there.

And it was, it was almost in like a hindsight thinking how I'd.

Grown as a leader within the specialist role because it, that's

what we have to do in the role.

I don't think people realize, actually they are leaders within themselves.

They probably just don't know they're doing it.

Hannah: Yeah.

It's like when we have to go back to revalidation, things like that, and

you're like, well, what have I done?

And then actually, when nurses look back through what they've done over the

last two years, you've done so much more than what you realize you have done.

Mm-hmm.

From what you could say there, I mean, you'd already been a leader

without even almost semi realizing it.

Emma: Hmm.

I had so much imposter syndrome when I was on that course because I was,

I was surrounded by senior nurses.

Um, I was, um, uh, governance managers, uh, you know, all of these

higher, higher grade professionals.

And I, and I, and, and I did, I have the thought.

I, I don't lead a team.

I don't actually ha.

I don't manage a team, but it very came quickly, you know, apparent that you,

you know, leadership is so much more and involves so much more and it's having

that and it, it's inspiring others

Hannah: and I love that the inspiring others.

It's like it's the next generation of nurses coming

through, as you said, isn't it?

It's that succession planning, which is something that is so tricky within the

NHS because we know they don't tend to replace somebody till they're actually.

Out the door and it's so hard to get that planning and that

that succession in place.

So is there any advice that you would give out there, either of you here

for, for that succession because.

Emma: It is, it's really difficult.

I think you've got to remember from our experience and in specialist practice, how

many years practice we have under our belt before we go into that specialist area.

It's talent spotting, isn't it?

It's that talent selection.

And I think the NHS can do a lot on that side of it, in, you know,

their, their culture, in their lead, in their leadership to

recognize people on their pathways.

So if you find a, a Band five nurse that.

Becomes that patient, um, facilitator, um, with the stoma

nurse or with the continents team.

You can see that they've got a passion and it's, it's, it's,

it's that talent acquisition.

So I think it really comes from, from, from above as well.

Hannah: Yeah, really good point.

How about you, Paul?

Anything more from you on that?

Paul: It's actually quite apt, really, that we, it's, it's almost 360 to the

very, very start of this podcast where we spoke about, we're on season, season

12 now, and it takes me back to an episode, I swear it was season one and I.

I was talking to the lovely Maddie White ex lead at the QE Exair of the A SCN.

And we, I was, one of the things we, we, we were talking about the journey

of a stoma nurse from I want to be a Stoma nurse to, I'm a new Stoma

nurse, to, I'm an exp, you know, I'm an experienced manager leader to.

I need to be succession planning for my replacement because for I was fortunate

enough that, you know, when I spoke to MAD at that time, she could really talk about

all of those because she was succession planning at the time of that podcast, and

she reflected back on her her own journey.

And I can't remember the exact numbers, but she was kind of second

in command for an awful long time.

We are talking well into the teen years, and she said that she was

champion at the bit to get the clinical lead post and when she got it.

It was only then that she realized that those years and years of succession

planning that her predecessor had been doing without her actually

even knowing about it, that she was being succession planned.

Was fantastic and she said it didn't take long to re to think

to herself I could have done with another 10 years of being succession

planned because of the complexity.

You know, we are talking the qe, we are talking the center of excellence.

We are talking about, you know, one of the biggest trauma centers in the uk.

You know, we are talking a massive, massive department.

And I think it's quite apt that we are talking about that.

So if you haven't, people, you know, everybody's listening.

Now, if you haven't gone back to all the way back to season one, if you new

to the podcast, have a listen to, to the Maddie White one, um, on succession

planning and the journey of a Stoma as, I can't, I irritate, irritate it.

I can't, whatever that word is.

Enough reiterate.

Hannah: Re Thank

Paul: you.

Reiterate, that's the word.

Enough.

Succession planning, and I think that is so vitally important.

And like Emma said, it's spotting that diamond in the rough and say.

They are the one, you know, you can see.

See them.

I want you.

I want you.

And I think that's it.

And do you need to be a manager to do that?

No.

And I think a leader will see leadership qualities in others.

They are a beacon.

It does as, like I said at the start as well, it doesn't matter

what band, what level they are.

You will see a leader shining like that diamond, and it is just so

obvious when you see them, nurture them, support them, guide them.

Be a leader to them because they are the future of the NHS.

Hannah: What a lovely little note to finish on about that inspiration

for the next generation along.

I think that's a really nice note to finish on.

What I'm not saying is don't go and pinch all the nurses off the wards.

Don't, I'm not encouraging that.

Just pick one.

Just pick one, pinch one.

Paul: We're all allowed to pinch.

We're all allowed to pinch one.

Hannah: Yeah, pick one.

And thank you so much guys for joining me.

And thank you to everybody listening, and we will see you next time.

Thank you for listening.

To see more of the wide variety of education we offer, please visit

Coloplast professional.co uk.

See you next time.

Narrator: Stoma and Continence Conversations is a vibrant sound media

production for Coloplast Professional.