(00:00:00): I'm surrounded by violent men,

(00:00:02): men who have assaulted women,

(00:00:04): yelled at me,

(00:00:05): men who break things in rage.

(00:00:07): I know men who are in or who have been to prison for violent offenses.

(00:00:12): And yet they all seem to agree on one thing.

(00:00:13): I'm angry and they're rational and emotionless.

(00:00:17): No matter what I say or how I say it to my husband,

(00:00:20): my dad,

(00:00:21): my brother,

(00:00:21): my boss,

(00:00:22): my male colleagues,

(00:00:23): if I have a problem with anything,

(00:00:25): I'm the angry one.

(00:00:27): I'm the scary one.

(00:00:28): I'm the emotional one.

(00:00:29): To these men who have tantrums and break things and engage in violence because of

(00:00:33): their angry emotions.

(00:00:35): When I read Zahn's piece on patriarchal rules,

(00:00:38): asserting that anything men do is rational and that anything women do in opposition

(00:00:41): to is emotional and crazy,

(00:00:43): it clicked into place.

(00:00:45): They don't actually think I'm angry.

(00:00:47): They just want me to shut up.

(00:00:49): Hi,

(00:00:50): I'm Zanva Lines,

(00:00:51): a writer and feminist activist,

(00:00:53): and this is the Liberating Motherhood podcast.

(00:00:56): Today,

(00:00:56): we're talking about women,

(00:00:58): anger,

(00:00:58): and how the stigmatization of women's anger furthers the goals of patriarchy.

(00:01:03): Before we get started, just a few quick administrative reminders.

(00:01:06): You can visit all things Liberating Motherhood at my website, liberatingmotherhood.org.

(00:01:11): There's also a form there to submit podcast vignettes, feminist advice questions, contact form.

(00:01:17): Pretty much any question that you might have is answered there.

(00:01:20): You'll also find book lists, tons of resources, and links to everywhere else you can find me.

(00:01:25): And of course, the main place to find me is on Substack.

(00:01:28): zon.substack.com.

(00:01:30): If you like this podcast,

(00:01:32): I really hope you'll consider leaving a positive review on your chosen podcast platform.

(00:01:36): Reviews along with shares,

(00:01:38): comments,

(00:01:38): and engagement really help to support the podcast and ensure that more people can

(00:01:42): find it.

(00:01:42): This then in turn allows me to make more episodes.

(00:01:46): So on to women's anger.

(00:01:48): My guest today is Gemma Hartley.

(00:01:50): Hi, Gemma.

(00:01:52): Hi.

(00:01:53): I am so excited to have you here.

(00:01:55): So let me tell you guys a little bit about Gemma.

(00:01:57): Gemma Hartley is a freelance writer with a BA in writing from the University of Nevada at Reno.

(00:02:03): She is the author of Fed Up, Emotional Labor, Women, and the Way Forward.

(00:02:07): And this is how I discovered Gemma.

(00:02:09): Her book is amazing and has contributed significantly to my understanding of

(00:02:13): feminist philosophy and of women in anger.

(00:02:16): She has a new book coming out,

(00:02:18): No One Loves an Angry Woman,

(00:02:20): which will be out in September of 2026.

(00:02:21): Her sub stack,

(00:02:24): of the same name,

(00:02:25): No One Loves an Angry Woman,

(00:02:27): explores feminism,

(00:02:28): anger,

(00:02:29): domestic labor inequity,

(00:02:31): and more.

(00:02:32): She also has an amazing substack for writers called Creative Commitment.

(00:02:37): Gemma, I'm so thrilled to have you here.

(00:02:39): So let's get started.

(00:02:41): All right.

(00:02:42): I'm really excited to be here.

(00:02:43): Thank you for having me.

(00:02:45): Yay.

(00:02:45): Thank you for coming on.

(00:02:46): So your book grew from an article you wrote for Harper's Bazaar,

(00:02:50): Women Aren't Nags,

(00:02:51): We're Just Fed Up.

(00:02:52): The title alone is something I think so many of us can relate to.

(00:02:56): How did you get interested in this topic and how did it give birth to your book Fed Up?

(00:03:02): Yeah,

(00:03:03): so this was a topic that I think was just kind of blooming in the general

(00:03:10): consciousness around the time that I wrote that article.

(00:03:13): And this was a time when I was freelancing and writing maybe 10 articles a week,

(00:03:18): I was writing constantly.

(00:03:20): And so I didn't really have any idea that this particular article would blow up in

(00:03:25): the way that it did.

(00:03:26): And I

(00:03:29): had agents approach me and ask me if I would like to write a book on this topic.

(00:03:35): I ended up going with my agent who I love and got a book deal with Harper one to write fed up.

(00:03:43): And I had to do a lot of research very, very quickly on the mental load and emotional labor.

(00:03:51): in order to write the book.

(00:03:52): I had a six-month deadline and it was a real whirlwind writing that book.

(00:03:59): I sometimes wish that I had done a little bit more research before,

(00:04:04): that I had had a little bit more time to sit with the subject because there are so

(00:04:08): many changes I would make to this book if I were to write it today.

(00:04:10): Yeah, that's fair.

(00:04:13): And that's kind of

(00:04:14): How it goes,

(00:04:15): I also started out as a freelance writer where you're just throwing things into the

(00:04:20): void and seeing what sticks and then something does and then you have to like make

(00:04:24): that your whole thing and I think it can be pretty challenging.

(00:04:29): Yeah.

(00:04:29): And I think the nice thing about the book that I'm writing now is that it's coming

(00:04:34): out so long after my first book that I have a lot more freedom with it.

(00:04:39): And I've had a lot of time to sit with this topic of women's anger and gender

(00:04:46): inequity that I've experienced throughout my life,

(00:04:49): largely through growing up in an evangelical community.

(00:04:53): And it feels like

(00:04:55): I finally get to say many of the things I've wanted to say in all of these interim years.

(00:05:01): Yeah.

(00:05:02): So, okay.

(00:05:02): It's interesting that you mentioned growing up in an evangelical community,

(00:05:05): because I find that there is this like pipeline with women where they start out

(00:05:10): evangelical and then they get kind of a little shred where they think something is unjust.

(00:05:16): And then they go down a rabbit hole and they get kind of radicalized and they end

(00:05:21): up like basically where you and I are.

(00:05:23): Um,

(00:05:26): I guess,

(00:05:26): talk to me about how anger is depicted in the evangelical community,

(00:05:33): how women in that community are raised to feel about anger.

(00:05:37): Yeah.

(00:05:40): So, you know, I think that your reader who sent in that vignette got it exactly right.

(00:05:46): They don't think that you're angry.

(00:05:48): They just want you to shut up.

(00:05:50): And so if you even veer into anger,

(00:05:55): questioning the way that things are, not even getting angry, just questioning.

(00:06:01): You're told that you're being irrational,

(00:06:03): that you're being sinful,

(00:06:05): and conversation is just shut down at the source.

(00:06:09): And I think that that builds up a lot of rage and resentment,

(00:06:14): even if you're not going to acknowledge it.

(00:06:16): And so when you find that little, you know, nudge towards

(00:06:22): feminism or, or it's, you know, recognizing injustice.

(00:06:27): I think you're right.

(00:06:28): There's a really big like evangelical girl to radical feminist pipeline.

(00:06:33): I wrote about this recently on my Substack about how I'm not actually all that

(00:06:38): afraid of what is happening with,

(00:06:41): you know,

(00:06:42): evangelicals gaining so much political power and,

(00:06:46): you know,

(00:06:46): having all of these evangelical children,

(00:06:48): a lot of them are going to be women and a lot of them are going to turn on their

(00:06:52): family of origin and their faith of origin once they realize their own subjugation.

(00:06:58): Yeah,

(00:06:59): it's really interesting how I found through my own work,

(00:07:04): I've converted,

(00:07:05): I guess,

(00:07:06): for lack of a better term,

(00:07:08): a large number of evangelical women.

(00:07:11): And the ones who contact me all tell me the same story,

(00:07:14): which is that they found my work because they were searching to solve a problem

(00:07:18): with their spouse.

(00:07:20): And at first they thought that I was crazy and angry and something to avoid,

(00:07:24): and they hate followed me.

(00:07:26): And then they started reading more and then they got radicalized.

(00:07:30): And then like a few years later,

(00:07:31): you know,

(00:07:32): now they can't stop themselves from,

(00:07:34): you know,

(00:07:35): every time they hear about a woman going on a date,

(00:07:36): for example,

(00:07:37): telling her to just murder the man instead.

(00:07:40): So I think that's really interesting.

(00:07:42): And I think that,

(00:07:44): you know,

(00:07:44): when we tell women to be silent for so long,

(00:07:46): we can expect that they're going to be like really,

(00:07:48): really angry after a while.

(00:07:50): Yeah.

(00:07:51): Yeah.

(00:07:52): And I think when you finally start to reckon with all the ways that you've been

(00:07:56): silenced throughout your life,

(00:07:58): anger is the natural response to that.

(00:08:01): Anger is just part of being awake to all of the things you were told didn't exist

(00:08:07): throughout your life.

(00:08:09): And I used to be really afraid or ashamed of my anger.

(00:08:14): And

(00:08:16): I see it as a really powerful tool.

(00:08:18): Now it is what brings me clarity and shows me that I'm moving in the right direction.

(00:08:23): Yeah, absolutely.

(00:08:25): I,

(00:08:26): I think it's not an accident that we want to silence women's anger because before

(00:08:33): you can change anything,

(00:08:33): you have to be angry about it.

(00:08:35): So I,

(00:08:35): I want to get to that,

(00:08:37): but I want to talk a little bit about fed up first and about emotional labor.

(00:08:42): Um,

(00:08:44): One thing that I see so often is this idea that household labor inequity is just a

(00:08:48): small trivial matter.

(00:08:50): It's something to laugh about.

(00:08:52): Tee hee, look how stupid and incompetent men are.

(00:08:54): You know,

(00:08:55): pundits talk about it as if it's just a dish in the sink,

(00:08:58): just a minor difference in standards and preferences.

(00:09:00): You know, there's the she left me because I left a dish in the sink guy.

(00:09:05): But depending on which data you believe,

(00:09:07): men are creating an average of an additional seven to 12 hours of work a week for

(00:09:11): their partners.

(00:09:13): And that's on top of the ways they undermine their partners with mediocre or bad parenting,

(00:09:16): emotionally abandoning their partners,

(00:09:18): and just generally making life more stressful and less fulfilling.

(00:09:22): This to me is like the total theft of a person's life opportunities and dreams.

(00:09:27): So why do you think we and like even so many of us in the feminist movement pretend

(00:09:33): this is a small thing,

(00:09:34): a distraction,

(00:09:35): a trivial issue?

(00:09:35): I mean,

(00:09:39): I feel like in most feminist spaces,

(00:09:41): especially over the last five years,

(00:09:43): we've started to come around to what a big deal this is.

(00:09:47): not just the domestic labor inequity,

(00:09:50): but the aspect of the emotional labor and mental load,

(00:09:53): which is all of the noticing,

(00:09:56): planning,

(00:09:57): delegating,

(00:09:57): overseeing work.

(00:09:59): Alison Damager breaks this down really well into the different parts of cognitive labor.

(00:10:04): And then there is the emotional labor aspect of it,

(00:10:06): which is doing the emotion management of everyone around you.

(00:10:10): You have to ask in the right tone

(00:10:12): you have to make sure that your requests are clear enough,

(00:10:17): because there's this misconception that men can't possibly understand what you're

(00:10:22): asking them to do,

(00:10:24): or they can't possibly do this job well.

(00:10:27): And one of the things that I am exploring in my next book is that a lot of this

(00:10:33): belief is rooted in Christian patriarchy and Christian ideology.

(00:10:38): And

(00:10:39): where our ideas about men's incompetence and,

(00:10:43): you know,

(00:10:43): women's work being really trivial come from is from complementarianism.

(00:10:48): The idea that like, well, men aren't wired for this and women are.

(00:10:52): And so therefore, because you're wired for it, it's not really labor.

(00:10:56): And because they aren't wired for it, they can't take it on.

(00:11:01): And it's really insidious.

(00:11:02): Most people don't recognize that that comes from within religious ideology,

(00:11:06): but it absolutely does.

(00:11:09): Oh my God.

(00:11:09): It's so true.

(00:11:10): I mean,

(00:11:10): that's the thing that I hear all the time is that,

(00:11:13): well,

(00:11:14): women are just better at it and it's completely complementarianism.

(00:11:19): And then there's this sort of secular version,

(00:11:22): which is this like evolutionary psychology bullshit of,

(00:11:25): you know,

(00:11:26): well,

(00:11:26): women are this way and men are this way.

(00:11:28): And we love the just so stories because it's a lot easier than confronting that

(00:11:32): Men are doing this deliberately because it's easier for them.

(00:11:36): You talked about emotion management,

(00:11:38): and I want to zero in on that because I feel like that's something that we're not

(00:11:43): talking about as much right now.

(00:11:46): This idea that women have to manage other people's emotions and manage their own emotions.

(00:11:54): especially in the context of like men's weaponized bad moods.

(00:11:58): I had a reader refer to it as the passive aggressive male presence in the house

(00:12:03): that if he's angry and brooding,

(00:12:06): she has to keep like putting new coins into the slot until she finds one that works.

(00:12:13): Tell me what you're seeing in your research about that.

(00:12:17): Yeah.

(00:12:17): The emotion management work, it's, it's another distraction, right?

(00:12:21): It's another way to keep women from talking about the things that actually matter,

(00:12:26): the things that would,

(00:12:27): you know,

(00:12:28): increase their ability to enjoy life.

(00:12:32): If you have to manage someone else's emotion,

(00:12:34): if they're not going to be responsible for their own emotions,

(00:12:37): um,

(00:12:38): Women have been tasked with managing that for a long time.

(00:12:42): And the idea of emotional labor and emotion management comes from Arlie

(00:12:46): Hochschild's research,

(00:12:47): which was very specifically like within the capitalist framework of she did a lot

(00:12:53): of research around flight attendants who had to put up with a lot of misogyny and

(00:12:58): keep a smile on their face.

(00:13:00): But women do this in their personal lives as well.

(00:13:03): They are tasked with keeping a happy home.

(00:13:07): It's one of the reasons I really hate the whole like happy wife,

(00:13:10): happy life kind of reframing of this,

(00:13:16): because it's women that are keeping everyone else happy.

(00:13:18): And we do this not only with our partners,

(00:13:23): you know,

(00:13:23): making sure that like,

(00:13:25): oh,

(00:13:25): let's tend to his emotions and make sure that he's okay.

(00:13:30): Um,

(00:13:31): you know,

(00:13:31): and often that means doing all of the domestic labor around the house,

(00:13:37): doing all of the mental load work so that we're not burdening him because he's

(00:13:42): already in a bad mood.

(00:13:43): Right.

(00:13:44): And we do the same thing when we're out in public.

(00:13:46): I write a lot about this and fed up about how we have to

(00:13:51): take in the emotions of those around us when we're in public spaces.

(00:13:55): And this comes in with,

(00:13:57): you know,

(00:13:57): sexual predation and,

(00:14:00): you know,

(00:14:01): getting catcalled on the street basically is like,

(00:14:03): okay,

(00:14:04): how do I not escalate this situation?

(00:14:07): How do I maintain my safety?

(00:14:09): And that safety happens out in the public and also happens a lot within the home,

(00:14:13): which we don't talk about as often.

(00:14:16): Yeah.

(00:14:16): I mean, I, so I have this piece I wrote about a year ago.

(00:14:19): It was called something like, you know,

(00:14:22): the threat of violence lurks in every unequal relationship because it is that

(00:14:27): violence that men use to reinforce this.

(00:14:29): Even if an individual man would never be violent,

(00:14:33): the woman understanding that he could be,

(00:14:35): and that men often are,

(00:14:36): and that they almost always get away with it,

(00:14:39): keeps her compliant and keeps her in line.

(00:14:41): So that's, you know, great and really scary.

(00:14:43): Um,

(00:14:46): you talk a lot about managing men's emotions.

(00:14:49): And I think that's really interesting because men,

(00:14:51): of course,

(00:14:52): have this idea of themselves as rational and not having emotions.

(00:14:58): And if you talk to a men's rights activist,

(00:15:01): he'll prattle on about how men aren't allowed to share their emotions or have their emotions.

(00:15:07): And I feel like women's emotion management labor that we do constantly is

(00:15:13): enables men to feel that way.

(00:15:14): It enables men to think,

(00:15:16): oh,

(00:15:17): we're rational and we don't burden anybody with our emotions because women act as

(00:15:23): if we're not burdened and we act as if men's emotions aren't really emotions.

(00:15:27): They're just rational and reality and sort of the default settings by which we

(00:15:31): determine everything else.

(00:15:34): Yeah.

(00:15:34): Well, and I mean, that's just how we operate as a society.

(00:15:37): Whatever men do is the standard and whatever women do is the aberration.

(00:15:42): And I think that men do have this idea of themselves as being rational and not emotional.

(00:15:49): And part of that is social conditioning where we venerate men's anger and we shut

(00:15:56): down oftentimes the sensitivities and full emotional range of men.

(00:16:03): Women don't do that.

(00:16:04): Men do that to other men.

(00:16:06): And then it gets taken out on women who bear the burden of that emotional labor.

(00:16:12): And I think that it's so interesting that men have this belief still that they are

(00:16:20): so rational because they are generally only putting that emotional labor onto their

(00:16:26): partner or women in positions that cannot,

(00:16:31): you know,

(00:16:32): fight back or speak up about the emotionality that they're expressing.

(00:16:38): Yeah,

(00:16:38): I mean,

(00:16:39): there's only one gender that is committing like tons of acts of violence and

(00:16:43): tantrums and all of that because of their emotions.

(00:16:46): And it's not women.

(00:16:49): So,

(00:16:49): okay,

(00:16:49): so let's talk about women and our anger that is kind of simmering below the surface

(00:16:54): that we're never allowed to express.

(00:16:57): It's obvious to me that the women are angry for a reason and that anger is really

(00:17:03): the only rational reaction to living in a patriarchy.

(00:17:07): which is exactly why we stigmatize anger.

(00:17:10): We want to pretend women are crazy for calling injustice exactly what it is.

(00:17:13): And I think that if we stigmatize women as angry,

(00:17:17): we stigmatize them as irrational and often in fundamentalist evangelical circles,

(00:17:23): stigmatize them as like flighty,

(00:17:25): less reliable,

(00:17:26): less intelligent,

(00:17:28): then it's very easy to silence them.

(00:17:31): So talk to me about the important role that this stigmatization of anger produces.

(00:17:36): plays in patriarchy and what we can do about it?

(00:17:40): So I think that when I think about how silencing women and specifically women's

(00:17:48): anger works in the favor of the patriarchy,

(00:17:51): I always come back to this quote from Gerda Lerner from The Creation of Patriarchy.

(00:17:56): And she says that the system of patriarchy can function only with the cooperation of women.

(00:18:01): And angry women

(00:18:03): are not cooperative women.

(00:18:06): And she goes on to talk about the different ways that you secure cooperation.

(00:18:11): One is gender indoctrination,

(00:18:12): which is really big in the church,

(00:18:14): that complementarianism,

(00:18:16): that women are made for a submissive role.

(00:18:20): And I feel like I experienced all the things that she lists,

(00:18:24): educational deprivation,

(00:18:26): the denial of women's knowledge about their history,

(00:18:30): dividing women from one another,

(00:18:31): which has been a big goal of the church for many years.

(00:18:35): It is, you know, the genesis of the witch hunts was let's break up women.

(00:18:41): Let's put an end to gossip and knowledge sharing.

(00:18:45): And then, you know, defining respectability and deviance and

(00:18:50): restraining women from feeling their full range of emotions.

(00:18:54): And I think that you're right,

(00:18:55): that anger is the only logical response for a woman living in patriarchy.

(00:19:03): But when we tell them that anger is not a natural response,

(00:19:10): That sense that like we want belonging within society will keep us quiet,

(00:19:17): especially if our community consists of,

(00:19:21): you know,

(00:19:21): a religious community that really banks on women's silence in order to continue operating.

(00:19:28): Yeah, I think that's really, really important.

(00:19:34): I had a reader probably a couple of months ago point out that most women don't

(00:19:40): really have deep connections with other women and don't know what their daily lives

(00:19:44): are like.

(00:19:45): And so...

(00:19:47): they think that their very political experiences are highly personal and their own fault.

(00:19:53): So yeah, I think that's true.

(00:19:55): And I see it in my own work too, this sort of dividing women.

(00:20:01): A lot of women will tell me that they really like my work,

(00:20:05): but that they can't read it that much because I'm so angry and I'm so mean and I'm

(00:20:09): so negative.

(00:20:10): I'm not positive enough or that their husbands don't want to read me because I scare them.

(00:20:14): You know,

(00:20:14): because we're supposed to talk about our oppression without ever being upset about it.

(00:20:19): And, you know, I intellectually recognize the dynamic that's going on here.

(00:20:24): But I also have this immediate reaction of like, but I'm so nice and I'm so rational.

(00:20:29): Like, I'm not angry.

(00:20:31): I'm not a bad guy.

(00:20:32): Like, look at me write so nicely about grief.

(00:20:35): And I think that if you get enough of that,

(00:20:38): you start to just kind of temper your message ever so subtly and try to spend some

(00:20:45): time proving what a nice girl you are.

(00:20:47): And then, of course, that is time taken away from more meaningful work.

(00:20:52): Yeah, absolutely.

(00:20:53): And I think

(00:20:54): You know,

(00:20:55): one of my greatest regrets about my first book is that I was trying so hard to be nice.

(00:21:04): And I've gotten the comment that like, oh, you're so approachable to men in this book.

(00:21:11): And I've even heard from some women that,

(00:21:14): you know,

(00:21:15): because I spoke to men in that book in a way that was measured and easy to hear.

(00:21:24): Some,

(00:21:24): you know,

(00:21:25): good guys,

(00:21:26): and I'm putting that in air quotes here,

(00:21:28): felt emboldened to cherry pick through my message and feel,

(00:21:34): you know,

(00:21:34): like they didn't actually have to change and feel victimized.

(00:21:39): And,

(00:21:39): you know,

(00:21:39): all the things that men love to do when they twist messages that are trying to

(00:21:45): speak to them gently that are doing that emotional labor.

(00:21:49): And I don't write like that anymore.

(00:21:54): I am really unapologetically angry and I think it's going to lose me a lot of

(00:22:01): people because I think when you talk about the women that say,

(00:22:06): you know,

(00:22:06): I just,

(00:22:07): I can't stay with you in this anger.

(00:22:11): They can't stay with their own anger.

(00:22:13): It's too scary because they know that down that path of anger is going to be rejection and

(00:22:22): from a lot of the places of power that have held them close.

(00:22:27): So getting that proximity to power, I think, is one of the things that keeps women silent.

(00:22:32): Like, oh, well, men aren't going to turn on me if I continue to be nice.

(00:22:37): If I continue to swallow my anger,

(00:22:40): I can keep the peace and I can keep this proximity to power that is not full power,

(00:22:46): that keeps you in this place of actual powerlessness.

(00:22:52): but you don't have to be fighting against the patriarchy if you're going to hide your anger.

(00:22:59): And once you release that, you can't really shove it back in.

(00:23:04): And so I understand why women don't want to face their own anger because you don't

(00:23:11): know what liberation is actually going to feel like.

(00:23:15): And it looks really scary from the outside and from everything you've been told.

(00:23:19): Yeah, yeah.

(00:23:20): So I will tell you this,

(00:23:21): which is that I think and I hope that you might be surprised by the positive

(00:23:27): reaction you get to being sort of more authentically angry because,

(00:23:32): well,

(00:23:32): yes,

(00:23:32): that does come with some rejection.

(00:23:34): I found that overwhelmingly people say that they're refreshed by my direct tone and

(00:23:41): that they're happy that I'm saying the way things really are.

(00:23:46): And, you know, kind of on a personal level,

(00:23:49): There's not much reward in being accepted for work that isn't really you.

(00:23:55): But when you do work that is your authentic self and that is accepted,

(00:23:59): like that feels really good.

(00:24:00): So I just want listeners to bear in mind that anger does come with rejection,

(00:24:05): but saying what you actually think can help you connect meaningfully to other women.

(00:24:11): And

(00:24:12): Also,

(00:24:13): you may be surprised by how accepting people can be because like anger is our

(00:24:17): reality and oppression is very much our reality right now.

(00:24:22): Yeah.

(00:24:22): And I think that it's I will lose some people and I will gain others.

(00:24:27): And the people that I lose are not a loss to me.

(00:24:31): Okay, so you mentioned this thing about men contacting you and like cherry picking your work.

(00:24:36): And I have to ask you about this, because I get this all the time.

(00:24:39): And I'm just curious if it's happening to other feminist writers.

(00:24:43): Do you get men contacting you seeking your like,

(00:24:47): validation and feminist stamp of approvals that they can then weaponize it against

(00:24:51): their partners?

(00:24:53): Oh my gosh.

(00:24:54): Yes.

(00:24:55): And it drives me absolutely crazy.

(00:24:58): And often what I'll say to that,

(00:25:00): you know,

(00:25:00): if they email me or privately message me,

(00:25:02): a lot of the time I won't respond,

(00:25:04): but if I do,

(00:25:05): I will just tell them,

(00:25:06): I'm not going to give you a fucking cookie.

(00:25:09): Like you've come to the wrong place.

(00:25:11): I am not here to give you a fucking cookie for your good behavior.

(00:25:14): You are showing your misogyny by reaching out to me right now.

(00:25:18): And I have no tolerance for it anymore.

(00:25:21): I used to engage with so many men who were purposefully misinterpreting my work and

(00:25:29): trying to clarify myself and like,

(00:25:32): oh,

(00:25:32): so much wasted energy.

(00:25:34): And now it's like, I block, I delete, or I tell you, I'm not going to give you a fucking cookie.

(00:25:40): Well, and then it's like you engage with them in good faith.

(00:25:43): You try to help them.

(00:25:45): You give them evidence.

(00:25:46): You walk them through all the way up to the feminist door.

(00:25:50): And then what do they say?

(00:25:51): They say, well, I've lost respect for you.

(00:25:53): You're just one of the bad feminists.

(00:25:54): It's like they never actually walk through the door.

(00:25:57): Yeah, there is no good faith that I've found in any man who feels emboldened to take up my time.

(00:26:07): Yeah, yeah.

(00:26:08): They're just, oh, it's exhausting.

(00:26:11): I feel like I want to do a whole podcast episode about just the men who email me

(00:26:15): and how much they upset me.

(00:26:19): It's just,

(00:26:19): it's unbelievable the stuff that is like constantly sitting in my inbox and

(00:26:23): probably in yours too.

(00:26:25): And like people always think it's like the death threats, but it's not.

(00:26:28): It's these like faux good faith bros who are just like,

(00:26:31): and one more question,

(00:26:33): and one more question,

(00:26:34): and one more question.

(00:26:34): The worst.

(00:26:35): And you know, when I have

(00:26:38): I recently had this experience when I wrote a Substack piece on like just the

(00:26:43): really abominable treatment that a lot of women experience within their

(00:26:48): relationships where they are basically begging their partners for help and men are

(00:26:54): turning away from them.

(00:26:55): And I had so many men come into my comments and be like, that's horrible.

(00:27:01): Let me tell you about what a good guy I am.

(00:27:03): Oh my God, I saw that.

(00:27:05): I started typing so many hateful comments to so many of those men.

(00:27:10): And I finally just had to like leave my office and get away from the computer

(00:27:15): because I was just going to like bomb your sub stack.

(00:27:19): I mean, I would allow it.

(00:27:21): Also, I blocked a lot of them.

(00:27:23): So they weren't able to respond.

(00:27:25): I went on with some of them because, you know, like I choose where I direct my energy.

(00:27:32): And because it's my comments section,

(00:27:34): and I know the people that are reading my comments section might find value in some

(00:27:39): of these talking points,

(00:27:40): I will engage in the way that I want to.

(00:27:43): And boy,

(00:27:43): does it piss them off when you're not going to take the bait that they're trying to

(00:27:48): lay for you.

(00:27:50): Or when you ban them,

(00:27:51): they all say the same thing,

(00:27:53): which is that you've suppressed my ideas and you've silenced me and you're fearful

(00:27:57): of the truth.

(00:27:58): And it's just, oh God, it's so infuriating.

(00:28:01): Okay, so.

(00:28:02): Yeah.

(00:28:03): It's like it's my space.

(00:28:04): I get to choose what I want to do with it.

(00:28:05): And you're not welcome here.

(00:28:07): But don't forget,

(00:28:08): you're a monster for having your own space because every space belongs to men and

(00:28:12): they should be able to come into everybody's space and say whatever they want

(00:28:15): without any consequences.

(00:28:17): And we should not be able to talk back to them because they have freedom of speech,

(00:28:20): but we don't.

(00:28:22): Exactly.

(00:28:22): I'm like, my dude, you're on my sub stack, like my personal blog, essentially.

(00:28:30): I can kick you out.

(00:28:31): I know, I wish that I was the government silencing you like forever, but sadly I am not.

(00:28:38): Okay,

(00:28:38): so I think a lot of women worry that they are being irrational or unfair when

(00:28:44): they're angry.

(00:28:45): One of the most common questions I get from my advice column is like,

(00:28:49): a woman will itemize all of the horrible things her spouse has done.

(00:28:53): And then she'll say, and I do admit that I'm angry.

(00:28:57): So do you think I'm being unfair?

(00:28:58): And it's like the answer is never no.

(00:29:01): But something about having that angry reaction makes a woman question everything she thinks.

(00:29:07): Yeah, because we're supposed to be ashamed of our anger.

(00:29:11): Our anger is ugly and unfeminine and not allowed.

(00:29:15): And so as soon as we transgress that boundary of anger,

(00:29:20): it's like everything that has been done to bring us to that point is null and void

(00:29:24): because you have crossed the uncrossable line.

(00:29:27): Yeah.

(00:29:28): So what is the what is the mental trick going on with men where you

(00:29:34): Their anger is a sign of righteousness and their commitment to justice and goodness,

(00:29:40): no matter what they do with that anger and no matter how violent it makes them.

(00:29:43): Whereas our anger is unacceptable and also exists even when it doesn't exist.

(00:29:50): Like they'll call us angry for just like asking for something politely.

(00:29:53): Yeah.

(00:29:55): Yeah.

(00:29:57): Honestly,

(00:29:57): you know,

(00:29:58): I don't know that it is so much a mental trick as it is just so much conditioning

(00:30:04): and reinforcement and a lot of it.

(00:30:07): I view through the lens of evangelical Christianity and the fact that men are

(00:30:14): supposed to be the direct line to God,

(00:30:18): essentially.

(00:30:20): I mean, literally.

(00:30:22): We have an entirely male succession of popes.

(00:30:27): Almost all Protestant Christianity will only allow men to be leaders.

(00:30:32): And so anything that men do, again, it becomes the standard.

(00:30:36): And anything that challenges that standard is not allowed.

(00:30:40): And so women are not allowed the full spectrum of their humanity,

(00:30:45): which very rightfully includes anger.

(00:30:49): What do you think of this new thing?

(00:30:51): You talking about evangelical Christians has me thinking about this new trend I'm

(00:30:55): seeing more and more of supposedly secular men talking about masculine and feminist energy,

(00:31:03): feminine energy,

(00:31:04): never feminist energy.

(00:31:06): And

(00:31:07): I just want to die.

(00:31:09): Every time I see it,

(00:31:10): I just feel this withering disgust where I want to hide under my desk that this has

(00:31:16): become a normal,

(00:31:18): acceptable thing to talk about of,

(00:31:19): well,

(00:31:20): you need to get her into her feminine so that she can submit to you.

(00:31:24): Do you think that this is like, I don't even know what my question is.

(00:31:30): Just say something about that.

(00:31:32): What is this?

(00:31:34): Well,

(00:31:35): I mean,

(00:31:35): put simply,

(00:31:36): it is complementarianism,

(00:31:38): that idea that men are meant for leadership and women are meant for submission.

(00:31:43): And I think that it's very appealing to even secular men because they want to hold on to power.

(00:31:52): And

(00:31:53): They don't understand that,

(00:31:56): you know,

(00:31:56): feminism or even matriarchy is not an inversion of the power structure.

(00:32:00): It's not women over men.

(00:32:03): It's just better for everyone.

(00:32:06): And I think that the desire to go back to this traditional idea around masculinity

(00:32:13): and femininity,

(00:32:15): really as described within Christian ideology,

(00:32:19): has to do with the fact that men are so stunted and

(00:32:23): by the way that they are raised within our culture and the ways that they are

(00:32:30): unwilling to grow.

(00:32:32): This is something that I see time and again as women start to reach middle age and

(00:32:39): start to sort of come into their anger,

(00:32:42): come into their power.

(00:32:42): There is this whole trope of like women reach 40 and they go crazy.

(00:32:47): Like, no, they just can't put up with all of this bullshit anymore.

(00:32:52): And their anger has to go somewhere.

(00:32:54): And oftentimes that awakening leads to divorce because women are growing.

(00:32:59): Women are constantly in this state of like self-improvement.

(00:33:04): And a lot of that has to do with the patriarchal standards of we need to figure out

(00:33:09): how to carve out space for us in this world that will not allow us any.

(00:33:13): And so we're constantly like

(00:33:15): tweaking and making adjustments to our lives and growing in a way that eventually

(00:33:21): leads us to,

(00:33:22): you know,

(00:33:23): the real answer that patriarchy is the problem.

(00:33:27): But men,

(00:33:27): a lot of the time are in this space of like,

(00:33:30): well,

(00:33:30): you know,

(00:33:31): I'm still the same guy you married.

(00:33:33): I just haven't grown at all since we first met.

(00:33:37): What's the big deal here?

(00:33:40): And I think that the fact that men are so unwilling to grow

(00:33:45): is what makes them want to go back into this little comfort zone of traditional

(00:33:49): masculinity of like,

(00:33:51): if I'm the only one that has these masculine traits or masculine skills,

(00:33:57): then I don't need to feel threatened by women who have their full humanity.

(00:34:02): If we can put women back in the submissive box, that would be great for my ego.

(00:34:07): And so I think that's where a lot of it is coming from.

(00:34:10): Yeah,

(00:34:10): there's just I've written a lot about how patriarchy really disrupts men's ability

(00:34:16): to think critically.

(00:34:18): And like I've talked about it as a brain disease because I really do think it works that way.

(00:34:24): When my oldest was a toddler,

(00:34:26): my husband would do this like modified version of the wheels on the bus where he

(00:34:31): would talk about like different people getting on the bus and what they said.

(00:34:35): And, you know, the sexist man would get on the bus.

(00:34:39): And the thing that he says on the bus is, I can't change.

(00:34:41): I can't change.

(00:34:43): And to me,

(00:34:44): that's like the whole of like patriarchy and relationships is this idea that you

(00:34:48): cannot ask a man to change,

(00:34:50): that that's fundamentally unloving and like unfair and unreasonable.

(00:34:55): And women are just supposed to perpetually change.

(00:34:58): Like if you look at any

(00:35:00): mainstream marriage advice book.

(00:35:02): It's about all the things that women have to accept and all the positions they have

(00:35:06): to contort themselves into to change,

(00:35:08): to accommodate the man.

(00:35:10): And it's just like, it's so sad.

(00:35:12): It's outrageous.

(00:35:14): Yeah.

(00:35:15): And I think that's so true.

(00:35:16): The idea, you know, this is why complementarianism is so alluring for men, right?

(00:35:23): It tells them, you can't change.

(00:35:25): Or that, you know, secular biologicalism that says, no, you can't change.

(00:35:30): Any sort of gender essentialist ideology is

(00:35:34): says, well, you can't change.

(00:35:36): So you don't have to try.

(00:35:37): You don't have to grow.

(00:35:38): You don't have to feel all of the uncomfortable feelings.

(00:35:42): And I think the reason that women are able to grow into their anger and grow in such,

(00:35:47): you know,

(00:35:47): magnificent ways as they age is because they have lived a life of discomfort.

(00:35:53): So what's,

(00:35:54): you know,

(00:35:54): what's the point of staying in the discomfort that doesn't serve you when there's a

(00:35:58): discomfort that leads to your liberation?

(00:36:00): Yeah.

(00:36:01): I love that.

(00:36:03): And that's what it is, is you have to... What is the quote?

(00:36:07): It's like, hope has two beautiful daughters and one of them is anger to change things.

(00:36:13): Yeah, you have to get angry about the way things are to correct them.

(00:36:17): So...

(00:36:19): Okay, we know that men are weaponizing this trope of the angry woman and the angry feminist.

(00:36:25): We know that kind of no matter what we do and how we ask, it's going to be stigmatized.

(00:36:30): It's excessively angry.

(00:36:32): And we're going to have this ridiculous idea that women are the scary,

(00:36:35): emotional,

(00:36:36): irrational ones.

(00:36:38): But we still have to live in this world where men keep doing this to us,

(00:36:43): even when we know that it's just ridiculous and infuriating.

(00:36:47): Have you tested any scripts for responding to these claims of anger?

(00:36:53): Have you found anything either that works or that is satisfying to say when a man

(00:36:58): is like oh you sure sound angry.

(00:37:00): I think the most satisfying thing.

(00:37:04): is to not say anything to them at all.

(00:37:07): I think that one of the things that I have learned over the past few years is that

(00:37:14): these men will come in and act like they are asking these questions in good faith.

(00:37:20): And saying,

(00:37:20): you know,

(00:37:21): if you changed your tone a little bit,

(00:37:22): if you were a little bit more rational,

(00:37:24): then maybe I could hear you.

(00:37:25): Maybe I would change.

(00:37:27): They kind of are dangling this carrot in front of you to get your compliance.

(00:37:32): And if you say, fuck your carrot, I'm going to stay angry.

(00:37:36): they have nothing else that they can do.

(00:37:39): And I've gotten into so many good faith arguments with men,

(00:37:44): and they are never,

(00:37:45): ever interested in changing.

(00:37:47): They are interested in taking up your time and your energy and your mental space.

(00:37:52): And if you just say, no, that is mine and you can't have it, that's all that I need to do.

(00:38:01): It keeps me clear and focused.

(00:38:04): And I think

(00:38:05): one of the things I hear so often, even from women is like, well, what, what about men?

(00:38:12): You know, how do we speak to them?

(00:38:13): How do we get them to understand?

(00:38:15): And I was like, if they wanted to, they would.

(00:38:18): Yeah.

(00:38:19): That's really true.

(00:38:21): And I think what gives me such freedom to say that is that I have a partner that is

(00:38:29): fully able to accept me in my anger and

(00:38:34): who listens and understands my full humanity and does not turn away from it.

(00:38:39): He doesn't need me to speak really rationally.

(00:38:43): He doesn't need me to be smaller in order for him to be big.

(00:38:47): And that sort of liberation within my own relationship allows me to get really

(00:38:54): angry with the men who do not give me the same fullness of my humanity.

(00:39:01): Yeah.

(00:39:01): I mean,

(00:39:02): I think that's,

(00:39:03): well,

(00:39:03): and that also speaks to the real tragedy of most heterosexual relationships because

(00:39:09): I'm also in an equitable marriage with a feminist man.

(00:39:13): And I really, I see how deeply affected I am by the patriarchy that surrounds me.

(00:39:19): And I don't understand how women who have no escape from that at home are able to

(00:39:25): continue functioning.

(00:39:26): And I

(00:39:28): These marriages are really destroying women and they're bringing the patriarchy

(00:39:33): into your home and making it such that there's just no safe place anywhere.

(00:39:38): So yeah, agreed.

(00:39:40): One of my favorite things to do with angry men on the internet is that all...

(00:39:45): you know, type out my response, which is increasingly just mocking.

(00:39:49): You know, they don't respond to evidence.

(00:39:51): So I'll mock them and then I'll wait until I can see that they're typing a response

(00:39:55): and I'll let them type for like a really long time because I know they're sending

(00:39:58): me a wall of text and then I'll block them before they can post their wall of text.

(00:40:02): And I don't know how it makes them feel, but it makes me feel great.

(00:40:06): And that's all I really care about.

(00:40:07): Yeah.

(00:40:10): And, you know, I've

(00:40:12): had so many men this week,

(00:40:15): like on social media,

(00:40:16): trying to reach out to me and tell me,

(00:40:20): you know,

(00:40:21): if you were a little bit less angry,

(00:40:23): if you weren't talking down to us.

(00:40:24): And I was like, who are you?

(00:40:27): And I'm just not going to respond.

(00:40:30): I think it's so liberating to not try to convince men that you get to take up space.

(00:40:38): What about in settings where someone commands authority?

(00:40:41): Because this is where I see it a lot that there's not an easy escape for women.

(00:40:44): It's especially common in couples counseling,

(00:40:47): which is so often a tool of reinforcing patriarchal marriage dynamics,

(00:40:52): where the woman will go in with complaints that are usually sexual coercion,

(00:40:58): household labor inequality,

(00:40:59): low-grade abuse of the kids by her spouse,

(00:41:02): and emotional abuse and neglect by her spouse.

(00:41:05): And the therapist will tell her that her anger is the problem and that she needs to

(00:41:08): work on her anger and also probably like give him sex that's painful and unpleasant

(00:41:13): for her.

(00:41:15): In these settings, you know, we can't block, we can't ignore.

(00:41:20): What do you recommend women do?

(00:41:21): Is there any way to redirect attention away from the woman's anger in these sorts of,

(00:41:26): you know,

(00:41:27): really sexist contexts?

(00:41:30): Oh.

(00:41:31): Yeah.

(00:41:31): So I have a lot of issues with couples therapy because I think it does really

(00:41:37): reinforce gender hierarchy.

(00:41:40): It is really a place where

(00:41:43): patriarchy seeps in and makes things often worse for women.

(00:41:49): Because it's like,

(00:41:49): oh,

(00:41:49): well,

(00:41:50): we've got to listen to both sides,

(00:41:51): even though one side is like,

(00:41:53): I would like basic dignity.

(00:41:55): And the other side is I would like to coerce someone into sex.

(00:42:00): Like, I would like to go back to where it was legal to rape my wife.

(00:42:05): And so I have a lot of issues with

(00:42:08): couples counseling.

(00:42:09): And it has a lot of Christian roots and like eugenics roots as well.

(00:42:18): We don't have time to get into all of that.

(00:42:22): But I think that when you are in a situation like that,

(00:42:27): what often is going to happen is men are going to really want to stay with a

(00:42:33): therapist who reinforces those gender hierarchies within the home.

(00:42:38): And

(00:42:39): you don't have to stay in that relationship with a therapist, especially.

(00:42:45): I know that oftentimes women do have to stay in relationships because marriage is

(00:42:51): built to uphold patriarchy.

(00:42:53): It is built to keep women beholden to men.

(00:42:59): But in a therapy office, you do not have to put up with that.

(00:43:02): You do not have to stay in that situation.

(00:43:06): And you can say that, you know, like, no, this isn't the problem.

(00:43:11): And you can actually,

(00:43:13): you are allowed to call out that bad behavior and that bad ideology that your

(00:43:19): therapist is espousing.

(00:43:20): It feels like you can't, but you absolutely can.

(00:43:25): It's just a social construct that you think like this person is a position in a

(00:43:29): position of power.

(00:43:29): No, they're not.

(00:43:30): You're paying them.

(00:43:32): You can absolutely tell them to fuck off.

(00:43:35): That's such an important message.

(00:43:38): Women just have this ongoing obligation to make things work and to people please

(00:43:43): and to keep trying and keep trying and keep trying.

(00:43:46): And this trying distracts us from becoming and doing whoever and whatever we were meant to be.

(00:43:52): So yeah, I would just add, don't pay someone to inflict misogyny on you.

(00:43:58): You can get misogyny inflicted on you for free,

(00:44:01): usually at home from the person who's supposed to love you.

(00:44:03): Yeah.

(00:44:05): Absolutely.

(00:44:06): All right.

(00:44:08): Well,

(00:44:08): if you could share one core message about women and anger,

(00:44:13): if you could get women to accept one thing,

(00:44:16): you can change the world and you have one thing that you're going to tell women.

(00:44:20): What do you think they need to know or what do you think they don't understand

(00:44:23): about their own anger?

(00:44:27): Your anger isn't something for you to be afraid of.

(00:44:30): It is something for patriarchy to be afraid of.

(00:44:32): I think that is...

(00:44:35): the most empowering thing that I've learned about my anger.

(00:44:39): It has brought me into community with other women in ways that I never imagined

(00:44:47): possible when I was growing up in an evangelical community.

(00:44:50): It has given me so much freedom to pursue a life that feels authentic.

(00:44:56): Anger is not the end of something.

(00:45:00): It's the beginning of your life.

(00:45:03): Oh, I love that.

(00:45:04): I love that.

(00:45:05): I mean, patriarchy is only ever going to teach us to behave in ways that serve patriarchy.

(00:45:12): So I think always the question needs to be, why does patriarchy want me to think this?

(00:45:18): And what's something that's better for me that I can think?

(00:45:22): Gemma, your work is amazing and it's changing the world.

(00:45:26): And I'm just so glad that it's out there and that you are out there.

(00:45:31): Yeah,

(00:45:31): I feel absolutely the same about you and your work and how accessible you make it

(00:45:39): for those evangelical women that are hate following you to slowly come to the other side.

(00:45:46): I think it is so important to have people who are reaching out that hand and saying, it's okay.

(00:45:54): You can come over to this side.

(00:45:56): It's going to be okay.

(00:45:57): We're going to have your back.

(00:45:59): And I think you do that really well.

(00:46:02): I try.

(00:46:02): I've turned some of them into enemies as well.

(00:46:05): So I'm not sure how well I'm doing, but I'm doing something I'm doing.

(00:46:09): So and that's all any of us can do.

(00:46:11): Gemma, thank you so much.

(00:46:13): I'm so excited to read your new book.

(00:46:15): I wish it was coming out sooner because I think it's going to be amazing.

(00:46:19): You and me both.

(00:46:21): Well, I think that people are going to love it.

(00:46:24): And if you have not read Gemma's first book, please do.

(00:46:28): It's being re-released next month, right?

(00:46:32): Yes.

(00:46:33): So it is currently out of stock,

(00:46:35): absolutely everywhere,

(00:46:36): but it is in its reprinting right now and it will come out on May 5th.

(00:46:41): Amazing.

(00:46:43): So I recommend listeners subscribe to your sub stack,

(00:46:45): which is just full of thoughtful ruminations on everything.

(00:46:51): I'll put links to that,

(00:46:53): to your books,

(00:46:55): and to everything else people can find out about you in the show notes.

(00:46:58): Thank you again for listening.

(00:46:59): Thank you, Gemma, for coming on.

(00:47:01): And I will be back with our next episode in two weeks.