There's that saying in leadership, healthy things

grow, but cancer grows and that's not

very healthy.

And so I think sometimes we have to maybe make

sure that we're dissecting what it is

that we're doing to make sure that it's the right

thing.

This is the Made to Advance podcast.

I'm your host, Brian Aulick.

We're here to inspire and equip you for your best

future.

Welcome, everybody.

It's so good to be with you.

And I want to ask you a favor before we get the

conversation started today.

If you enjoy our podcast, please rate and review

us.

That helps us get the word out to more and more

people.

It also helps us bring on more incredible guests

like the one we have today.

We've got Steven Brewster with me and Steven is

the founder of The Harmony Group, which

is a company that comes alongside Christian bands

and helps them reach a broader audience.

Steven is working with bands like Elevation Worship,

Red Rocks Worship, River Valley Worship,

and yes, even Engedi Worship.

Steven has years of experience in the music

industry, but he also has served in executive

level roles in some of our country's leading

churches.

So Steven, welcome to the show.

Hi, it's so good to be here today.

I'm so excited to get to talk to you today.

Great to have you on.

And it's funny, we talked about this a little bit

before we started recording, but everybody

that I know that knows you refers to you as Brewster.

So we'll just go back and forth.

I don't know what's going to come out at any

given time.

Whatever feels right.

We'll just roll with it.

That sounds good.

It was so good hanging out with you in Nashville,

man.

We were down there to celebrate Engedi's signing

with Capitol and man, it was awesome

to hear your heart.

And the moment we were talking just to kind of

about what drives you and your perspective,

I just thought, man, it'd be fun to have a

broader conversation and be able to share

it with more people.

So thanks for jumping in.

Yeah, it's my pleasure.

I loved our conversation that day.

It's not often that you get to meet people that

you go, "Oh, I would totally enjoy working

with them and doing life with them."

But with your team and with you, it's always felt

that way.

So totally a huge fan of what you guys are doing,

what you're doing with the church and

obviously in the worship space.

So cool.

Excited to chat today.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Same.

Well, I thought maybe you could start out by just

giving me a little bit of your background.

Where'd you grow up and maybe even like, how did

you come to a place of faith in Jesus?

What's your whole spiritual backstory?

Yeah.

So my parents were missionaries.

I kind of grew up around the world, Haiti and

Singapore predominantly, high school in

Florida.

When you grow up in church, you know you're

always in church.

So I had all of those experiences.

And then I would say early high school, end of

ninth grade, beginning of 10th grade, kind

of found my own faith and my own relationship

with the Lord.

And just ever since then, I swore I would never

go into the family business and be in

ministry and didn't have any intention to do that.

Ended up there.

And I mean, we're all in ministry.

If you're a believer, you're in ministry, but vocational

ministry.

And so, yeah, all over the world, high school in

Florida, went to a lot of colleges 'cause

no one told me not to, and I racked up all kinds

of debt.

And I'm on the creative team, so I couldn't make

a commitment.

Ended up in Nashville and been here ever since.

So was high school then your, I mean, your first

time really spending extended time in

the States, like living in the States?

Oh, wow.

So what was the transition like to go from being

on the missions field to coming into

Florida?

Yeah.

I mean, so spent time in Haiti, a long time in

Haiti.

Like moved there when I was in like kindergarten,

moved out when I was in like seventh grade.

But we moved from Haiti to Singapore.

And so Haiti to Singapore was way more of a

culture shock than Singapore to Florida.

But so, I mean, I had a different worldview

because I grew up in a space where I was the

minority.

And when you grow up in a different world, in a

different space, a different perspective,

it just shapes you differently.

So I don't know that like I paid enough attention

as a high schooler to like the cultural

differences.

I just knew things were different, and there was

a lot more white people.

Was it hard to acclimate to living in the States

at that point or not?

Not really.

Was it just an easy, easy shift?

No.

I mean, that's a great question.

I think it was an easy shift to go from Singapore

to the States.

It was a very difficult shift to go from Haiti to

Singapore.

And so that was, you know, middle school sucks

anyway.

And so middle school, and then you move to

another country and you don't belong, you

don't fit in, and you went from a world where

even though your life was modest, it looked

wealthy to a place where your middle class life

is poverty level compared to everyone

else in the country.

No kidding.

And so it was an interesting, I mean, and in

Haiti, we didn't have much, so it wasn't

like we were balling.

But I think that was probably the biggest thing

that I noticed in that, I mean, that

in the racial piece.

I just noticed those two things were like very

different when we moved back to the States.

Wow.

So the real drivers when you're going from Haiti

to Singapore, I mean, you're doing it

at a difficult life season, and then essentially

the social economics stratification was really

a tough pill.

Did you end up learning language, like doing

language acquisition in each country, or how

did that work?

I did.

In Haiti, I did for sure.

I mean, like I could speak Creole well enough to

interpret for teams when they would come

to town.

But we were only in Singapore for a year, and I

didn't even have to take a class.

But in Singapore, English is as dominant or

prominent as Mandarin.

So it didn't feel foreign to be able to just

speak English.

Okay, gotcha.

So that background makes your shift into the

music industry all the more fascinating to

me.

How did you ever end up doing what you're doing

and kind of taking steps towards music?

Yeah.

So I fell in love with creativity very young.

I remember always loving creating and being able

to do anything in the arts.

I also love sports.

And so I didn't want to be in the band in high

school because I wanted to play sports.

But I loved music, like always had music playing,

always.

And when I got into college, I realized, "Oh,

there's a business side to music."

So even though I'm not a musician or a performer,

there's a place for me in the music space.

So fell in love with that in college.

And then, I mean, back then, I didn't know

anything about like a Belmont or an MTSU or

a Full Sail where you could go and learn the

music business.

So my education on the music business was going

to Barnes & Noble and reading every

trade magazine I get my hands on to just try to

figure out how it worked.

And then I moved to Nashville in 1996, dropped

out of college my senior year, one semester

to go, really brilliant decision.

Like I said, had no one telling me, "Hey, this is

dumb."

I did go back and get my degree in organizational

leadership.

But moved to Nashville and God was very kind.

He allowed me the chance to do music business

because at 20 years old, you think you know

everything but you really don't know anything.

And I thought I knew...

I read Vibe magazine so I know everything about

the music business and it was a crash

course but it was kind of the Lord to allow me to

crash course.

A lot of people move here and never get the

chance to do the thing that they came here

for.

How'd you break in?

So interestingly, breaking in kind of happened in

two different ways.

So one, I was a temp employee for a distribution

company and they were going through a computer

change and so my job was to answer the phone

after Christian bookstores had been on hold

for over like an hour and a half, two hours, and

ask the Christian bookstore if I could

take down their name and number and have someone

call them back.

I got cussed out by more Christian bookstores

than probably anyone in history, right?

And quickly learned that I didn't have any desire

to be in the distribution space.

Simultaneously, I met a guy named Toby Mack at a

record store and he said, "Hey, do you

guys happen to play basketball?"

And I was like, "Yeah, I play basketball."

And he's like, "Cool, we're playing basketball

tonight at midnight at this gym.

We need one more.

Can you come play?"

And I said, "Sure."

So I started playing basketball with him and a

select group of people that he would call

into play and kind of like that's how I built a

relationship with him.

Then ended up getting to work at, my first label

job was at Goatee Records because of

Toby and it was awesome.

No kidding.

So was he already kind of a legend by that point

that you were playing ball with him

or was he still kind of on the up and up?

Well, he was a DC talk legend.

So like Jesus Freak had already been out, Supernatural

was coming out.

He hadn't gone off and done the solo thing yet,

but the DC talk was massive.

So he was in that stage and Toby's a legend.

He's an icon.

Yeah, somebody, I was listening to an interview

or something and they said, they were talking

about him and just saying he has got the most

incredible commitment to detail, to being

great at what he does, just like full on 110 all

the time.

I mean, that was really cool.

I think it might've been.

I heard Tommy Profit say that about him.

I'm not sure who was talking about him at that

point.

Very possible, yeah.

But that's kind of how he is, huh?

I can attest.

Those are true statements.

But what's really amazing is even with him being

the pinnacle really of our industry,

no entitlement, very humble, very easy to work

with, not egotistical, competitive, very

competitive.

But so it was fun to learn.

I really learned about the music business from

Toby and Joey.

Joey's the president of Goatee Records.

And I've gotten the privilege to thank them over

and over again for basically paying for

my education and my mistakes in their company

helped me learn how to do what we do today.

Man, that's really, really cool.

It's so fun when you meet people who are driven,

they're competitive, they wanna get after

it, but also just have that deep sense of

humility and they're not divas, they don't

think they're anything special.

And to have that combination, I mean, you can

find one or the other, but finding both

in the same person is a real privilege.

What an awesome way to start.

And I know you ended up doing a season working

for churches, but how long were you in the

music industry before you went on staff at some

churches?

So I worked in the music business for probably 10

years, and then...yeah, about 10 years,

and then left the music business to come work in

church.

And so I had a couple stints where we were like bivocational

or like volunteer ministry

leads, but vocationally it was about 10 years.

Okay, gotcha.

And I think all the churches that you really...you

did staff work for were all larger churches.

I'd be curious, I mean, just larger churches are

their own kind of beast in and of themselves.

Did you have any...did you walk away from those?

'Cause you've been in different places.

I have one long run in one church and then a

short run in another church, and that's

it.

Like I don't have all these years and places of

reference, but did you end up from having

a perspective at different churches, learning

anything about, "Oh man, there's some threads

here that are helping these churches do what they

do well and reach people," or is it like,

no, each one was kind of its way different beast

and such?

I think both, honestly.

I think one of the things that makes a church

great is when it is unique, right?

When a church offers their community something

that all the other churches are not offering

them, that becomes attractive to the people that

resonate with that style of ministry

or that felt need.

The commonality of successful churches, strong

kids, student ministry, usually a strong communicator.

Back then, and I don't think it's as much now,

but back then, really quality, small

group programs of being able to provide community

for people.

Of the churches that were good to work at that

did that, they also had really healthy

cultures.

And so the team, the leadership team cared about

ministering to their staff before they

cared about ministering to their community.

And it gets very rich when you do that because

there's so much more retention, and there's

nothing...

The most sexy thing in the world is longevity.

And so when you can keep a team together and have

fewer transitions, as long as everybody's

performing well, then it can be really special.

So yeah, it's interesting because you can have a

very successful church and it be very

unhealthy.

And there's that saying in leadership, healthy

things grow, but cancer grows and that's not

very healthy.

And so I think sometimes we have to maybe make

sure that we're dissecting what it is

that we're doing to make sure that it's the right

thing.

That's a great, great point.

Let's talk about the culture thing a little bit.

So I know you said they cared about their staff

kind of first.

What did that look like practically for you guys?

How did you see that lived out in the church

context?

How were they building the staff?

How were they building healthy culture as a whole?

Or would you say healthy culture is just building

into a healthy staff, and then it kind of

takes care of itself?

Yeah.

I mean, I think a healthy culture is intentional,

right?

So really anything about culture.

You either curate culture or you permission

culture.

And if you permission culture, it's usually a bad

culture.

So you're allowing things to happen that...

And that's not just a church thing.

That's just any organization.

If you allow poor behavior, that's the culture

that's going to be built.

If you're intentional with your culture and you

know what your values are, you know what

your purpose and mission is, and you keep

everyone focused on that, that becomes healthy.

And so I do think in church too, I have such

respect for church planters.

I think planting a church is one of the most

difficult things in the world.

Because you're just out there on your own, you

never have enough money, you never have

enough time, you never have enough resource, and

you are just grinding it out, right?

And then God starts to move, and all of a sudden

you start to get some staff, and you

start to get some buildings or tools, resources,

whatever it is.

And then the pastor's still in that, "We got to

keep grinding" mode, because we're never...

This is going to fail.

We can't let it fail.

Even when the organization has matured to a place

where it's no longer fragile, some

of that thinking still exists.

And a lot of times, you can tell a church is

probably in trouble, culturally in trouble,

when one person has five jobs, and there's no

respect or intentionality around Sabbath,

where people don't feel like they have fun when

they're working, right?

We're doing ministry.

Ministry's hard.

There's a spiritual warfare component to it.

And then all of that, plus everyone's a jerk.

Why do I want to be in that world?

So caretaking your staff is making sure that they're

getting counseling when they need

it, making sure that they're checked on, paying

them or bonusing them as well as you can,

maybe even put to a place that it might hurt.

And then just making sure you're like stewarding

these people.

I remember, slightly unrelated, but pretty

related.

I was at an event out at Saddleback years ago

when I was in ministry full-time, and

Pastor Rick Warren walked in.

And there was like 10 of us in this room, and

then he walks in, and he sits down in

a chair and just starts talking, and it is

literally like a master class in ministry.

I couldn't write notes fast enough.

No kidding.

And one of the things he said that I think was so

important was he said, "In ministry,

most leaders in ministry want...

When someone comes and joins their staff or their

team or their relational circle, they

think that that person's a lifer, right?

And the reality is more people are called through

Saddleback than are called to Saddleback.

And our job as leaders is to make sure that we

don't overprotect our emotions so that

we still give ourselves to the people that we're

responsible for.

And that while they're there and while we have

them, we give them the very best that

we can give them."

And that totally changed how I looked at staff

culture.

It was like, "Oh, most of these people are gonna

not be here forever."

A very small handful will, but while we have them,

we better make sure we give them everything

we got.

Yeah, boy, that's really good.

Yeah, it's really unselfish, sort of servant-hearted

paradigm to take on to say...

I mean, obviously, they're there for a role on

the team, and that's important, but to

say how can we send them out some point just

stronger, better, healthier than when they

came in, and it's not just about what they're

bringing to the organization.

I love that.

And trusting the Lord that if he's moving them on,

he's got somebody better coming in.

It's interesting with the whole, like you're

saying, on the one hand, the startup mentality

of the gritty, we're hanging on by our fingernails.

On the one hand, you need to grow out of that,

but it's funny 'cause there's a lot of talk

too about keeping that founder's mentality and

having that entrepreneurial, 'cause the

flip side is sometimes people get very

organizational, they get very comfortable, things

are working,

and now we're afraid to take risks and all that,

whereas when you're small and nimble,

you're trying stuff and going for it and all that.

So how do you navigate that tension, do you think,

between not overly embracing a startup

mentality but at the same time retaining some of

the strengths that come with it?

So I'm a big believer in hustle, not the hustle

that John Mark Comer writes about that's

unhealthy.

To me, hustle is making sure you bring everything

you got to whatever you're doing.

And so I think that a lot of people look at the

equation the way you just described it.

The startup mentality, or the gritty, and then

startup mentality.

And actually, there's three different lanes.

We have this business and we're running it out of

our garage.

That's a church plant, right?

That's actually the most gritty.

You're running out of your garage, you're not

even a startup yet.

You're on life support, hoping that we make it,

right?

Then there is the startup stage.

And the startup stage is where you keep the

mentality, but you understand that you're

not so fragile that you can't make mistakes.

You're not so fragile that you can't give people

time to catch their breath.

And really, it's honestly a trusting in the Lord

that if we bring everything we've got,

he's going to do the rest, right?

Then the next stage is the one that gets super

dangerous.

And that's the corporate mentality, where

everything has a policy, everything has a

procedure, everything has a handbook, and you

really just obliterate creativity and

innovation out of your organization because it's

so structured.

And there are great churches that live in that

space.

Those are for a different kind of person than

maybe what I would want to work in.

So I think preserving and fighting for the

startup space is vital.

Just always remembering, okay, we're not so

fragile anymore that we can't breathe.

Yeah, makes sense.

So how many years were you doing church work

before you then started your company?

Yeah, probably cumulatively about another 10.

Okay, that's a good run.

Tell me about the journey to starting to think

about and then ultimately launch the Harmony

Group.

I wish there was a think about.

So I had gone through a really tough season.

We worked at a church.

It was our favorite job.

Our team was incredible.

We loved them.

I thought it was our forever.

I thought I was called to it, not through it.

And God had different plans.

I was called through it.

And so terrible season in 2016.

Ended up going to another church in Florida for

five months.

Went to the pastor and just said, "Hey, look, I'm

not healthy.

I need to go someplace smaller and start to get

healthy and get in counseling.

And I haven't recovered from this past season."

So moved to Charlotte.

I worked at a church that's not Elevation.

Yes, there are churches in Charlotte that are Elevation.

Was there for about a year.

Got in counseling.

Started to getting healthy.

Got invited to be on the executive team.

Started asking questions you would ask on an

executive team and got fired.

And the genesis of the Harmony Group was I need a

job.

And so I had felt like the Lord was telling us

our next season of ministry was going to

look different.

And I didn't know what that meant.

I really, really thought it was going to be

leadership, creative, and church consulting.

I texted one of my friends and said, "Hey, you

guys probably don't need any help with

your music at all.

But if you did, I'm in a season where I might be

able to help you guys a little bit."

And he wrote back and said, "Hey, we've been

wanting to hire you for four years, but you've

always had a job."

And I was like, "Conveniently, I don't."

So I started working with them.

And that was like about a third of my time and

compensation.

Another guy had asked me to...

He owns a church consulting company and they're

very successful and I love them.

And he's like, "Hey, I've just been impressed

with you.

Why don't you come and be part of what we're

doing here?"

And I was like, "Love it."

So I went through all the training, Pastor Brian,

I went through everything.

Two weeks from starting, I'm in the car driving

to the airport to go visit a university to

pitch some curriculum.

And I get a phone call from this guy.

He's the owner and president.

He's like, "Hey, God told me I can't hire you."

And I was like, "He did not tell me this.

This has been a secret that he's kept from me."

But I really felt like I really believed him.

There was a peace in it.

I was scared to death, but there was a peace in

it.

It's two-thirds of our salary.

We're starting in two weeks.

We're about to move back to Nashville.

All of these things...

And he was so kind.

He was like, "Listen, I will pay you until you

find something else."

And I just said, "You know what?

I love...

Thank you.

That is so kind.

But if God really told you that you're not

supposed to hire me, I can't take your money.

I need to go...

We both need to live on the faith that that's

true."

And he reluctantly agreed.

And so I didn't know what was next, honestly.

I get on the airplane.

Go ahead.

Do you have a question?

- Well, I was just gonna say, you know what's

interesting?

And I know you were saying you wish there was a

story in the whole getting fired thing.

I remember coming across a book once that said...

The title was something like, "Why Getting Fired

Is the Best Thing That Ever Happened

to Me."

And it was the story of all of these incredible

leaders, founders, all these different folks

that you would never imagine would get fired.

But it was the very act of getting fired that led

them actually into the great thing that

they ended up doing.

And so just for anyone who's listening right now,

if you're in the place that Brewster

was at one point, and you're thinking, "Oh my

goodness, how could I be that guy or that

gal who just got fired?"

There are many folks, and you're gonna hear what

Brewster's doing today, that ended up

actually paving the way to a really cool thing,

and just started out maybe less than the way

that we would plan for.

So anyway, keep going.

You were saying getting in a plane, I think you

were saying?

- Well, yeah, I'll go there in a second.

You don't have to worry about getting fired if it

happens once or twice.

If you're a serial getting fired person, you

probably need to do some self-evaluation.

So I get on this airplane, and I text my wife,

and I'm like, "Hey, this company isn't gonna

hire us.

He just called me and told me that God told him

he can't."

And she was like, "I didn't have a piece about it.

I think we're gonna be fine."

And I'm freaking out.

I wanna jump out of the airplane while I'm flying,

land in Tampa, drive over to Lakeland,

go to Southeastern University, pitch this

curriculum, 'cause there's no university

currently

still where you can go and get a degree in being

a creative arts pastor.

And I had all this curriculum.

I had been coaching creative pastors all over the

country.

They were like, "We love this.

Let's do it.

Let's build a curriculum.

Let's build a track and a lane."

We've never done any of that.

But they also said, "Hey, our worship team's

upstairs meeting with a record label.

Would you mind sitting in that?

We know your background is in that.

Would you mind sitting and just listening?"

So I go up and listen.

After the meeting, I was like, "Hey, you guys

probably shouldn't sign this, 'cause I don't

think this is the right thing for you."

And they were like, "Well, you can't leave today

unless you're gonna work with us and

help us."

And literally the same day that I was told that

the one organization couldn't hire me,

this other organization said, "We need you.

We're gonna contract you to do this."

And that was really how it started.

When you're a beginner in business and you are

opening your own shop, you do all kinds

of crazy stuff.

I was doing marketing for Football Sunday, and I

was doing all kinds of crazy stuff.

But as I started to get my legs underneath me, I

realized that I had a unique space.

There's no one else in the music business that I

know of currently that has an executive

background in the church and an executive

background in ministry.

And even through the bumps and trials...

Did you mean to say in ministry or did you mean

to say in music?

In music.

Yeah, in music.

Yeah, so you got the both and.

Both and.

And that's a blue ocean for us, for sure.

So yeah, it was like the opportunity was there.

And even through the bumps and the trials that we

went through, I never lost a love

or a hope for the local church.

I believe in it more than ever.

There's a lot of weeks that I miss being on a

church staff, but I also know this is where

the Lord has us and we get to help a lot of teams

now, which is awesome.

But if there was one strategic thing that we did,

and I don't even know if it's really

strategic, but I just knew I was supposed to work

with churches and ministries, like

worship leaders, not just like artists.

And so that's kind of the filter for us.

And if we're going to work with somebody, it has

to have a worship component to it or

else there's somebody that's better than us to do

that.

And maybe you could explain for those listening,

what exactly does the Harmony Group do?

I mean, when you say you're coming alongside

worship teams and whatnot, what are you guys

helping them with?

Yep.

So great, great question.

There's really three divisions of our company now.

There wasn't, there was one big hodgepodge before,

but now that we're kind of figuring

out life, we have three different divisions.

So one is management.

So this is when we work with a ministry that has

a record deal, and we're going to step

in and do what typically a manager would do in

that relationship.

And most of them are churches, so a normal music

manager isn't going to necessarily know

how to navigate a church.

And so we're managing there.

And a handful of our clients live in that one

very small space.

The middle space is a church is releasing music

and they are committed to it, but they

just know they don't know what they don't know.

And so we come in and we call these partners.

So on the partner level, we're going to meet with

you every two weeks and we're going to

become part of your team.

We're terrible consultants, but we're pretty good

teammates.

And so we're going to come in and we're going to

basically do everything for you or through

you.

So we're going to give you the strategy, we're

going to give you the systems, we're going

to give you the institutional knowledge, we're

going to help you with distribution, we're

going to help you as you grow, get a distribution

deal maybe, if that's what the Lord would

have or a pub admin deal.

But really we're involved in every aspect of the

music.

So from publishing to creation to writing to

producing, releasing, marketing, we do

all of that with the partner churches.

Then there's a handful of churches that we found,

and we started this about a year ago,

we found there was a handful of churches that

weren't ready to become partners yet.

It would be unfair of us to take their money

because they just hadn't matured in what they

were doing enough to warrant needing that level

of investment.

And so we started a coaching division.

And so on our coaching division, we meet with

churches once a month on Zoom and just give

them...

We give them the knowledge, but we're not doing

any of the lifting.

They're still doing all the lifting.

We're just giving them knowledge, best practices,

and helping them prepare.

In a perfect world, it moves from coaching to

partner, partner to management, because

you've kind of grown in your ministry.

Not every team's going to do that.

Most probably won't.

But when it happens, it's pretty special.

That's really cool.

I'd be curious, when you think about what gives

you the most joy about what you do,

is it seeing teams move through the pipeline in

the way that you just described?

What for you is the most satisfying part of your

role and what you do at your company?

Yeah, the most satisfying role is by far the

relationships with the teams.

The music's great, right?

It's awesome.

I love when we have a song that's successful,

that's fun, right?

But that's very fleeting.

One of the things that I love about what God's

allowed us to be part of is the fact that

pretty much all the teams we work with, they're

our people.

Not all of them, but most of them, they're our

people.

And so if they're in town, we're hanging out with

them when they're coming over for dinner.

And we just build these relationships with these

teams.

Church is transient, so sometimes people come,

sometimes people go, but the relationships

are what's really, really special.

Yeah.

You're like the Jerry Maguire of Christian

worship music, huh?

I mean, maybe.

I'd be curious, I was thinking about this with

regard to teamwork and just thinking

about aspects of what you do and what you see

that could apply to somebody who's outside

the music industry.

And I think sometimes when you think about what's

a band do, you just imagine a bunch

of people sitting in a room just being super

creative, don't have any sense of what is

on the calendar or the schedule.

But the reality is, of course, for a band to

really go where it needs to go, they need

to function as a team.

They need to have clarity on their goals.

I guess I'm curious if there's anything you've

seen in bands that really make a bigger

difference

that from a teamwork or a leadership perspective,

you go, "There are some principles there

that apply to other areas of life besides a band."

Yeah.

So one of the biggest ones is every successful

band or artist, ministry, there typically

is two people, two different types of people that

are in that group.

One is going to be the person who's probably the

hardest driver.

They're committed to the process, to the

execution, to the get it done.

Most of the time, that person is also not the

most creative person on the team.

And having the balance of the person who can sit

in a room and not care about the strategy,

you need that.

And you need seasons of that where you're just so

engrossed in creativity that you're

not worried about the other things.

But successful artists can't always live in that

space.

We were talking about Toby earlier.

One of the most creative guys I've ever met, but

also one of the hardest workers and most

driven people I've ever met.

And so successful teams, whether it's music or

not music, they're going to have an operations

side that knows how to drive the mission of the

organization forward.

And then they're going to have a creative side

that allows them to bring in innovation,

ideation, fun sometimes.

And you've got to have both gears.

If you don't have both gears, anytime you over-index

one way or the other, it impedes

your ability to grow.

So great teams have both.

Yeah, makes sense.

Do you see that when, as far as like a point

leader per se, at any given time, does it

depend on the team on if it's like, oh, the

creative, the more creative person's really

driving it, or is it generally the strategy

person that is kind of the point person in

most cases?

Well, in most cases, it can be both and it is

both.

A lot of times when it's the organizational

driver person, there's still a lot of elements

of creativity in them.

There's also a little bit of jealousy that the

other person just gets to be creative.

And it's probably a bit of a self-awareness gap

of like, hey, this is the thing that uniquely,

God's uniquely designed me to do that that person

can't do.

The total artist, they are not able to function

very long in the organizational, strategical

space, because it just drains them.

And so a lot of times that person that's driving

is jealous of the person who's not driving.

And one of the things that we try to do is really

reinforce that the personality type

that God gave them is intentional so that they

can steward the thing that He gave them

as well.

Yeah, that's really, really good, because I think

a lot of times it feels like if we're

oblivious either to our own wiring or to our team's

wiring, then we're wondering, why isn't

this person doing this or that?

Because it's the whole fish in the fishbowl thing.

I mean, you see the world a certain way with your

wiring on the way things ought to operate,

what needs to get done and all that.

And then if you're not aware, that's just how you

are gifted to see the world.

You're wondering what is wrong with the rest of

these people?

I mean, my goodness.

Why are they all flakes?

And so once you start to realize a little bit, oh,

okay, well, this is just a different

wired thing and this is a thing I'm going to

bring to the team.

And that's one of my unique contributions.

That's really, really helpful.

I'm curious from a leadership standpoint, you've

gone from some big church staffs and

honestly bigger companies to now you're a smaller

team.

And I think when we talked, do you have like

maybe five people on your team, your staff

team or is it more than that?

I know that they're kind of spread out, so it's a

little bit unique.

Yeah, so we have myself plus three people.

And one of them is currently part-time.

But yeah, so it's a smaller team than I was

leading a lot bigger teams in the past.

But you know this as a founder, hiring is so

stressful and people think that hiring

is the most expensive thing, but firing someone

is the most expensive thing.

And so just being meticulous and honestly

probably too afraid.

Like a lot of years that I probably had the

resources to start bringing support around

us, but so afraid that the money was going to dry

up that I probably waited too long.

I've definitely impeded my ability to scale

because of that fear.

And I think it's a good fear because I don't want

to put somebody else's family in a position

where I have to let them go.

But I also think that it requires faith to do

anything special in life.

And so I'm wrestling through it, Pastor Brian.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, that's great transparency.

I don't think sometimes when people think about

those who are in hiring positions, you

don't think about what they feel in this.

But I can remember like it was yesterday, the

first time I hired somebody full time

and he was married, he had three kids and we were

a startup thing.

And we had some reasons to be hopeful, but not

like, "Oh, this is going to be easy street."

And I thought, "Man, he is putting his whole

family on the line to join me in this thing."

It's a crazy, crazy feeling.

And of course you're thinking even organizationally

when you're small, every hire just has

disproportionate

weight.

I'm curious, how do you feel like...

I think that's a really interesting observation

just relative to on the one hand, like retaining

some of that discernment and caution with regard

to hiring people, but also being aware

where is fear or anxiety have too much of a hand

in this and where do I need to just

amp up my faith and kind of get after something.

Are there other ways that you've had to grow as a

leader for the Harmony Group?

Because this is, I mean, you're the founder, you're

the chief guy, you've run other things,

you've been led departments, you've had teams,

but this is a different role.

Have you had to grow yourself in other ways?

And if so, what would they be?

Yeah.

I mean, I don't think there's enough podcast time

for us to go through that whole list.

I would say one that is true for me, and it's

probably something I've always wrestled with

a little bit because of my wiring, is delegating

well.

I've lived way too many seasons of my life where

my identity was way too caught up in

what I did and how other people perceived me.

And so when you're the founder of an organization

and initially people are hiring you for you,

not for your service.

Your services are part of it, but they're like, "I'm

hiring you to help us."

And we're at that stage right now of like, "You're

not hiring me to help you, you're

hiring us to help you."

And that means that I'm going to do the things

that only I can do well, and I'm going to

let my team do the things that they can do well.

And me being comfortable with that and being able

to clarify that expectation with you

as the partner, then you're not going to have me

on every phone call.

I'll be there and I'm accessible, but these other

people are great.

And we've been very intentional in who and how we've

hired so that they could bring the

best to it.

So that whole letting go thing is tough.

- Yeah, so that was a big growth edge is just

being able to let go.

And was there a lot of coaching up for the team

or did they come in for those who are

working on your team where they already were

really good at what you needed them to be

good at and it was just setting them loose?

Or was it like, no, you had to really walk with

them closely to get them to the place

where you could let them run?

- Yeah, well, I think I'm still wrestling with

that.

So I don't know that it's been completely

resolved.

- Yeah.

- Because what we're doing is kind of innovative

in a...

There's not another organization that does what

we do with churches.

So no one's come in here going, "I worked at your

competitor and I know all of the systems.

You put me in the seat, I'm gonna drive."

So the one thing that I've been blessed with, and

I would love to say it was intentional,

I would say it's partially intentional.

Two of the three people that we've hired, we

hired them after they left working for

one of our partners.

So they had been on the other side of our

services.

And so they're coming in knowing what that person

on the other side is feeling and is

experiencing, which is something I've never felt

even as the founder, I've never felt.

And so everyone on our team has worked in church

before.

And we can't make it a condition legally, but it's

a high quality and high value of

ours is that you've worked in a local church

because you've got to understand how church

works if you're gonna do this and do it well.

So they've come from being associated with us to

now being us.

And so there is still a little learning curve.

And honestly, I mean, we're only six years old,

so there's a learning curve every day

in what we're doing.

And the music business changes so fast that just

like a lot of other industries, tech,

but your job today and your job in a year is

gonna be very different no matter what,

because the world's gonna be different.

- Are there any key things when you're bringing

people on?

I mean, obviously there's the technical expertise,

there's the, "Hey, it'd be nice," your radar

is up for if they have church background.

Are there any other things that you're like, "Man,

these are big deals to me in the hiring

process that no matter what the role is, I am

just keeping my eye out for this or that

in the candidate?"

- One of them is I've got to like to hang out

with you.

And that sounds weird, but I remember one of the

greatest leadership lessons I learned,

I learned from the Tina Fey memoir, which is not

where I would typically go for leadership

advice or practical leadership development.

- Such a good book, oh my goodness.

We've loaned ours out to so many people.

Yeah, you gotta be ready for a little color if

you're listening right now.

Okay, it is Tina Fey here, but it is fantastic.

What's the leadership lesson that she taught you?

- She was talking to Lauren Michaels and she was

wrestling through a hire that she was

trying to make.

And she was asking him for advice as her boss.

And he said, "Make sure that you wanna be with

that person at two o'clock in the morning,

'cause you're gonna be with them at two o'clock

in the morning doing this job and you're gonna

want to want to be with them."

And to me, that just clicked of like, I get to

choose if I'm going...

Relationships are a big value to me.

So I wanna be able to kick it with the people

that are part of our team.

And so if I don't have a vibe with you, it's not

gonna work.

Like it's not gonna work.

So that would be the first one.

Trust, I mean, every organization moves at the

speed of trust.

So I've gotta be able to trust you and trust that

what you're telling me is true.

- How do you assess that?

- Usually by spending time with them.

So I'm not a huge proponent of hiring somebody

full-time right off the bat.

I would rather contract you part-time, then

contract you full-time, and then hire you.

Because I want you to test me.

Maybe you don't like working for me.

Maybe I'm a maniac and you don't want to be part

of this.

But let's grow into it together when we have that

luxury.

And I think for churches, you should always

slowly bring someone on like that, as much

as you can.

So just in the interaction, a lot of questions.

When I've gotten to walk with you a little bit, I

know if I can trust you or not.

And so trust is a big one.

- Yeah, that makes sense.

I'd be curious when you think about, I mean, six

years in, are you a guy...

Some folks when they're leading their own

organization, they're like, "Oh, in 20 years,

I hope we're at XYZ place."

And other folks are like, "Man, I'm looking ahead

one year."

Or they just think, "Yeah, I just kind of want to

keep doing what we're doing and hopefully

it'll grow."

So how do you handle the whole vision of where we're

going conversation in your own mind?

Is that something you think about a lot or is it...

Yeah, how do you do vision?

- So if I answer that question honestly, for way

too many years, fear drove that vision.

Like, am I gonna be able to succeed?

I think we're in a place now where we're stable

enough that I am looking forward.

And I would have never in a million years, if you'd

have told me seven years ago, this

is where I would be and this is what we'd be

doing, I would have laughed at you.

I could have never dreamt that it would be what

it is.

And so some of that, I wanna make sure I keep...

I wanna keep that wonder alive.

I don't wanna put the box or the ground rules

around what God can do.

I do have aspirations that we're able to have a

few more people so we can help a few more

churches.

Right now we're pretty close to capacity and so

bringing anything else in right now would

probably hurt our team more than help our team.

So I would like it to stay boutique, but be able

to have the luxury of helping as many

as we feel called to.

One of the unique things about our organization

is of all of the teams we worked with or have

worked with or will, we've only sought out one of

them.

Everyone God has brought to us.

And so for me it's more of a stewardship thing.

I wanna make sure that I'm scaling to be able to

steward what God brings us more than I'm

dreaming to be a power industry mogul or

something silly like that, 'cause it's Christian

music,

y'all, okay?

There's not that person.

So what I hear you saying is a big part of your

vision for the future is really just

how you scale to be able to continue doing what

you're doing, but really just for more

people, more organizations, and keep yourself

healthy at the same time.

Is that a big part of what you're thinking about

right now?

Yeah, yes.

And just staying alert, keeping my antenna up,

that where is the innovation moment or

the opportunity that God's bringing along that I

need to be paying attention to?

When I started this, I had no idea that we would

end up having our own distribution relationship

and publishing administration relationship.

We do.

And so just paying attention to those things,

following the path and the pace of peace,

and making sure that we're moving, we're not just

staying stagnant.

Yeah, it's a fascinating thing just by virtue of

trying to move forward, how different ideas

and opportunities open up.

And like you were saying earlier with some of the

divisions you guys have within your

company right now, like the one that's really for,

you use different words, but mentoring

one kind of the lowest level involvement.

Well, that wasn't necessarily exactly on your

radar at the beginning, but you started to

realize, "Hey, there's a place here we can

respond to a need and make a difference."

And I'm sure those things will continue to come

up.

I'm curious, I've got two last questions.

One's sort of selfish one.

So when you first encountered in Getty Music, I'm

curious what ultimately led to you saying,

"Hey, it would be cool to have a relationship

with these guys."

Like you're used to working with some really big

time bands and you guys have been such

just advocates and amazing friends to our team.

I'd just be curious.

Yeah, like tell me what was it that you thought,

"I could see this happening."

So that's a very interesting question because

this is a very interesting relationship.

And so I couldn't even pronounce in Getty at the

beginning.

And so every time Tucker and I would talk about

it, I would say, "What's up with Enigma?

What are we doing with them again?"

And I remember meeting the guys on a Zoom call

and we had been probably going back and

forth in maybe some texts and some emails for a

while, quite a while.

And when we...

I mean, the music was cool, but I mean, there's a

lot of cool music out there.

But when we got on that Zoom call, I remember

getting off that call and really feeling like

we're supposed to be in relationship with them.

They're someone we're responsible to help steward.

And that was it.

Literally at that moment, I was like, "I'm going

to learn their name and we're going

to work together."

And so, I mean, obviously you guys make a super...

You guys make really cool music.

So that's the benefit.

But also...

And there's a favor on what you guys do.

You guys have some relationships that people at

the maturity level of that part of your

ministry don't have.

And so, I think God probably brought us along to

help you navigate that as much as for us

just to be homies.

Yeah, that's cool.

Well, thanks for saying that.

We sure have appreciated your just investment in

the team and you guys have been so generous

and so kind that I have no doubt we would

absolutely not be where we are right now had

it not been for your coaching and input.

And honestly, I feel like this is...

It's the front end.

So we're really excited to see what God has in

store for the future.

Just kind of last question.

I mean, the music industry, and you've referenced

this a couple of times, there's always this

crazy like, "What's going to happen next based on

technology?"

Are there any kinds of trends or innovations that

you're seeing right now, whether it be

in the social media space or in the how music

gets to people space or whatever that you're

going, "Hey, we're trying to pay attention to

that for our bands?"

Yeah, one for the positive is we've become social

media managers in essence.

We talk about it more than anything else that we

talk about because you can't be successful

in music in this season of the musical history

without a very strong and aggressive social

media strategy.

People find music online.

That's where they're finding it.

And radio does not have the same influence that

it's had before.

It's still very valuable, still a lever to pull,

but not the lever to pull anymore.

And so for the first time, it's also exciting

because for the first time, artists or ministries

have the ability to curate and collect the people

that are theirs.

And there's no gatekeepers between you and them

anymore.

You can get on your phone and make it happen.

And so that is an exciting thing.

A scary thing is AI and just how people are using

AI to create music and imitate other

artists and there's legislation that's getting

put into place to help that as well.

But innovation always leads before legislation

can catch up.

I haven't actually, and maybe this is a little

bit naive of me here, but I haven't heard

any music yet.

I've read about music being generated by AI, but

when you've heard, I'm guessing you've

heard stuff, is it like, oh my gosh, this is

crazy that AI just came up with this?

There is a song, not a song, but a clip of a song

on TikTok and Instagram right now that

is Justin Bieber singing about a situation and it

is not him.

It is completely AI.

And most people believe it's Justin Bieber wrote

a song about this situation and it is

completely fake.

No kidding.

Completely fake.

Wow.

So yeah, it's very, it's happening.

Now it's weird if you're like AI person, you're

like creating and getting worships like dupe,

because worship music has so many components to

it that spiritually a regular song just

doesn't have.

You know what's been crazy?

I'll ask AI some, I'll use chat GPT and ask some

different questions about, I'll ask just

get curiosity, like on some Bible passage or

whatever.

I have been shocked by how solid the answers are.

And I just asked a textual question this week and

all of the responses quoted, and I asked

for the quotes of the speaker, all of them quoted

heavy duty, New Testament scholars

that were all very evangelical in their

perspective.

And I'm like, dang, I mean, these are big names.

I thought this is working for me right now.

So it's just funny that the whole idea of like,

you know, you've on the one hand, great

tool, but on the other hand, we got to figure out

how to use it wisely and safely.

Just like everything else in history.

Yeah.

Well, thanks for coming on.

Thanks for telling us a little bit more about

what you do.

And I know that for those who are listening to

our podcast, they've heard me talk about

and getting music and we're going to have Jerrion

on sometime soon and talk about the

album that comes out in February, which is a

really exciting thing for us.

Already, the first single, we were comparing like

the release for our first single of our

last album to this one, and the traction

difference is absolutely nuts difference.

So I thank you for your input and how that's

helped contribute to the music getting out

there.

And it's cool, like we're starting just a log of

stories of what God is doing through

the music, 'cause you know, there's the numerical

side and that's not unimportant.

But I said to Jerrion, "We got to make sure we

hear people say this or that.

We got to make sure we write this stuff down so

that when people are saying, 'Oh, what's

this all about?'

We can say, 'Let me tell you what it's all about,'

and then talk about..."

He was just sharing a story with me of somebody

who just lost their job and was sitting with

Still Do Miracles, the track we just released,

and they were just so encouraged.

God is at work.

God is still doing something.

I have hope.

This firing is not the end of me.

The firing has not been the end of Steven Brewster.

I mean, I can do this.

And so that's what's really fun about it.

And getting those encouraging words out there to

a broader audience is something we're excited

about.

So thanks.

Thanks for also your transparency when it comes

to...

There's the outward journey or the kind of the

hard skills journey of, "Oh, I've got

to learn to delegate and I've got to get better.

And I've got to do this with a startup mode and

all these different things."

But then there's the internal side that you've

referenced a couple times when it comes to

things like battling fear and the sort of inside

emotional health things.

And I just really appreciate your transparency on

that front as well, because I think a lot

of leaders, it's easy to focus on the skill side

of things and what I need to do and what

I need to get better in.

A friend of mine started a consulting agency

around the inside of leadership for Marketplace

folks.

And he said, I had to shift a little bit because

it turns out Marketplace folks didn't want

to talk about the inside too much.

It was a tough go for him.

And so I just appreciate you giving voice to that

because for those who are listening,

the inner journey and facing some of those fears

and anxieties and identity issues you

talked about is a big deal when it comes to what

drives us forward.

So thank you for your transparency.

I appreciate you being on today.

It's been my pleasure.

Thanks for having me.

Thanks for letting me be part.

Yep.

We'll talk soon.

Well, I'm so glad Steven Brewster could join us

today.

And I really think one of the most encouraging

things he said is in some ways how getting

fired is one of the best things that ever

happened to him.

The company he leads today would not exist had he

not gotten let go for a job.

And I just want to say to all of you, maybe it's

not getting fired.

Maybe it's other, some others kind of setback or

barrier facing, but I want to remind you

of a passage from Romans 8 28.

It's a famous one and it's probably familiar to

many of you.

Romans 8 verse 28.

And we know that in all things, God works for the

good of those who love him, who have

been called according to his purpose.

And so just know, no matter what the difficulty

that you might be going through is today,

if you are in Christ, God is going to redeem that

difficulty.

I'm not saying God is the one who caused that

difficulty.

I don't know how all that works exactly.

But what I can say is that God will redeem it.

He will work through it, even if it feels like it's

insurmountable.

And so I want to ask you before we leave today,

again, if you could rate, review, made to

advance, that would be a great help.

This has been a production of Engedi Church and

we've got more incredible conversations

on the way.

So until next time, know you were made to advance.

Amen.

Amen.