PB_S2E17_CC_0516 ===

Paul Adelstein: [00:00:00] Hi. Whew. Boy. Bad blood, dude. A lot of, um, I guess that's a double entendre because so much of this episode is about family and children. Mm-hmm. Blood, bad blood.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. And in theory, a blood disorder, I guess the kidney thing. Kidney disorder, yeah. Td.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um. I had a shockingly emotional reaction to it though.

Like,

Paul Adelstein: uh, I had a definitely a different reaction than I did the first time I saw it, which was, you know, 1500 years ago. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I wanna talk about why our reactions have changed [00:01:00] too. That's a mm-hmm. That's an interesting conversation, but let's get into it. Before we do that,

Sarah Wayne Callies: it, it brought up a lot actually of, uh, it brought up a lot of interesting philosophical things that, that I'm curious about.

Yeah. Also,

Paul Adelstein: also, we get Stacey Keach.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Fresh from King Lear at the Goodman.

Paul Adelstein: We get Camille Gutta first time since season one.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, I think it might be Camille Gati. Okay.

Paul Adelstein: Just

Sarah Wayne Callies: anyway, um,

Paul Adelstein: also Camille Gati was in it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Also, Camille Gati. Mm-hmm. Who, uh, I love so much and who I think we may be able to get on the show,

Paul Adelstein: so great, great.

We'd love to talk to her.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, because she is, I gotta say in the, uh. In the, the, I don't know what you call it, the catalog of great prison break dimples.

Paul Adelstein: I mean, it's ins her dimples, her dimples actually are contracted separately. Yeah. So it was nice to see that they were also in the episode.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Yeah. They, they have their own rider.

Oh yeah. They own

Paul Adelstein: trailer. They

Sarah Wayne Callies: do. [00:02:00] Um,

Paul Adelstein: the dimples are walking. The dimples are walking. Di

Sarah Wayne Callies: the dimples are walking. The dimples have requested avocado toast. Um. Alright, would you, uh, you want to get us Yes. Get us off and running

Paul Adelstein: Episode two 17. Bad Blood aired on February 19th, 2007, which is actually two weeks after episode two 16 aired.

We're not sure why the show wasn't on the weekend between, but the day the show would've aired, there was. Oh, a mass shooting. I know in Salt Lake City called the Trolley Square shooting. It's possible the news coverage on Fox at night preempted all other programming. We do know the episode was co-written by showrunner Paul Shering and one of our main writers, Karen Usher.

It was directed by Nelson McCormick, the first. Five episodes Nelson would direct on the show. He would go on to become producing Director of season five and a producing director of season one of Colony starring Sarah Wayne. Call lovely director, great guy, and against the regular competition in the 8:00 PM time slot.

The episode Drew [00:03:00] 9.55 million viewers.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So to recap this enormously complex and emotionally exhausting episode, Michael and Sarah go to the cigar club where the key that her father left her is meant to open a private box, but they have to flee before opening it. Uh, warden Pope turns out to be a member of the cigar club, so they go visit him and Michael convinces him to retrieve the contacts of the private box.

Mm, in exchange for Michael surrendering himself. To authorities, which is something we learn at the very end. Uh, what Pope finds in the box is some kind of, um, audio recording. We're not entirely sure what it is. Only Kim arrives to claim it. Um, but Michael Lincoln and Sarah save Pope and leave Kellerman behind to fend for himself.

Paul Adelstein: Can't believe he played him like that

Sarah Wayne Callies: even after he shot a goon. Yeah, fathom. Yeah, which does seem completely fair to me, but also must have stung elsewhere. [00:04:00] Teabag brings Mrs. Hollander's family to his childhood home where he had been abused by his father and learned a lot about the dictionary. Mrs.

Hollander refuses to stay with him, so he locks her and her children in the basement and then finally decides to free them and leave them alone. Mm. Uh, meanwhile, sea Note takes his daughter Dei to a hospital and eventually Maho catches up to him. Sea Note finally surrenders and makes a deal with Mahome to deliver Schofield in exchange for his wife Casey's Freedom and DeeDee's Healthcare.

And in Xpa, Suge finds Mary Cruz at Last and the two Escape the Police together. Um,

Paul Adelstein: uh, in first in class news on February. 11th, Harvard University named historian Drew Gilpin. Faust, the first female president of the university in its 371 year in its 371 year history. Perhaps they didn't know Drew was a woman's name, and then they were like, at the first [00:05:00] meeting we're like, wait, what?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Wait guys, I have such bad news, such bad news. Bad.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, either we made a mistake or. Not to be outdone the U in US Presidential News, Illinois, freshman Senator Barack Obama officially announced his candidacy for president of the United States. On February 10th, Obama would go on to beat Republican Challenger.

John McCain become the first black president of the United States in its 231 year history.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And on this day, the very day the episode aired in 2007, the number one song on the US charts was Nelly. Furtado's Say It Right. Uh, despite that, the Grammys held February 11th were swept by the Dixie Chicks Oh. Who went on to win five awards, including record of the year.

I once saw them live in concert and they were wonderful. Um, finally, I believe they're just the

Paul Adelstein: chicks now.

Sarah Wayne Callies: They are in fact, the chicks. Yes. They got the memo about the Dixie part of their name. Right. Um, but there was that whole thing where their lead singer like said something about George Bush. That was during,

Paul Adelstein: that [00:06:00] was during this era.

This was rather, that was during this era. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. And like it blew up. It was actually the first time I'd heard of the Dixie Chicks because of that, um, that controversy. And finally in micro blogging news. Okay. February 19th was also the day that Tumblr was founded by David Karp. Tumblr was a social media app that became a huge thing and is already a dinosaur.

And that is how fast I don't,

Paul Adelstein: I still dunno what Tumblr is.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, me neither.

Paul Adelstein: Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Me neither. But there are people who like. Started careers in journalism.

Paul Adelstein: On Tumblr. On Tumblr. So is it like subs, Substack, kind of,

Sarah Wayne Callies: dude, I don't. Okay. I don't know what that is either. I'm afraid I am the dinosaur in the room. Do you

Paul Adelstein: know what Pinterest is?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I've seen Pinterest, yes.

Paul Adelstein: Okay. Yeah. Okay. Gen X. All right, we're gonna take a quick break. We're gonna come right back and talk about that. These are my short

Sarah Wayne Callies: T-Rex arms. Ah, what's that? Oh, okay. The T-Rex.

Okay, we're back. We're back. Um, things to talk about. [00:07:00] Woo. Yeah. Okay. Before, quick story, before we get into the, like, who I feel emotionally manipulated about this, I'm having some emotions. I got real mad at a certain point during the rewatch. It got sad. Um, but quick camera story while we were filming this is the, this is the worst thing I've seen happen to a camera almost ever on a set while we were filming the scenes in front of the stunt stuff in front of the cigar club where Yeah.

Hope comes out. Yeah. Is met by, I keep wanting to call him Reggie. So Reggie's first name, Kim, um, Michael and Sarah. See that he's in trouble. They pull up.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: they hit like big stunt sequence. As we were setting up one of the shots in that sequence, I wanna say it was coverage on Dom, because I [00:08:00] remember the camera pointed at him.

Okay. Back when they were big film cameras. Yeah. These things cost like a quarter of a million dollars a piece Y, and we were setting up a shot handheld. And the operator kind of goes like this, points through his shoulder. He is ready for the camera. Uh, camera assistant puts the sh, puts the camera on the shoulder.

Operator grabs the Mapbox, which is the way a lot of operators operate the camera, because you've got the most amount of control. Oh, no, I know what's

Paul Adelstein: gonna happen.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Holds the Mapbox camera goes flat,

Paul Adelstein: not properly attached. The Mapbox behind them,

Sarah Wayne Callies: onto pavement. We all hear a smash. There may or may not have been a tinkle of glass.

I'm not sure if I added that later in my imagination. Yeah. I immediately, for some reason, looked at Dom, and Dom was like, oh shit. Like I think it was [00:09:00] pin drop. Quiet for a sec. There was that beat of like. Oh no. Something real bad is afoot. And then they determined that the camera was not usable. Had to send somebody to the house in Pan, the Panasonic house in Dallas to have another one.

So we were down a camera. Never saw that camera assistant again. Really? I don't know if they're buried in the desert somewhere. Right. In like West Texas. Right, right. Um, oof. But the, the, I don't remember

Paul Adelstein: that for some reason. I don't know.

Sarah Wayne Callies: The operator held up the Mapbox as if to be like, dude, not my fault.

I actually think you, because that was, yeah, that part of the scene. You're shooting someone. I think you were far enough away. Yeah. And

Paul Adelstein: also I may not have been on set even like we were probably shooting that whole thing in pieces.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, anyway, that's just the, wow. That was the worst thing I've ever seen happen.

I think Dom ran over [00:10:00] a camera season four, but. Like worst operator, not operator error, but like that was a moment where everybody's bellies just went, uh, upside down.

Paul Adelstein: Oh. I feel terrible for everyone involved in that. I know. For everyone. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Especially the assistant who is probably buried someplace in West Texas.

Yeah. Yes. Um, okay. But the meat of this thing,

Paul Adelstein: yeah.

Family. Children. Children, what you're willing to do for children. I mean, ultimately, even Pope saying to Michael, I treated you like my own son. Oh, yeah. There's a whole theme going on here, right? Which is, well, first of all, I mean, obviously it starts with Mahome calling his son in the hospital.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. His son played like, but played by like this stone cold little gangster who's just like,

Paul Adelstein: and he's gonna go visit his son.

That's why he buys the bear. But then he gets called away.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yes. Right? Yes, I believe that's correct. [00:11:00]

Paul Adelstein: But sorry, you cannot return the bear, sir. I hope you have another little child you can give it to later.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. If only there's another kid you can visit in the hospital.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. And then so, and then he calls the FBI office and.

Barbara Eve Harris is like, oh, I hope. See knows. Kid keeps getting sicker. 'cause we'll definitely catch him. And he's like, you don't have kids, do you? Mm-hmm. She's like, Nope.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And uh, by the way, what I loved about her delivery was her delight. She was like, sure, don't, nope, that sounds terrible. And I drink

Paul Adelstein: wine and eat cheese, whatever I want to.

I go

Sarah Wayne Callies: to Ireland by myself and I am fly first class. Right.

Paul Adelstein: And I am well rested and I have a 401k.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Totally. Totally. It is, uh, beautiful. And you should see all the

Paul Adelstein: stairs in my house and all the heavy glass, all the heavy glass sculptures.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I have a white couch. Yep. Like, um, yep. So lots of kid stuff. What's, [00:12:00] okay, so here's, here's an interesting thing with the hindsight of the way the show was received, because if I'm remembering correctly, at the time there was a bit of like hate for c note, quote unquote being a snitch and for this,

Paul Adelstein: for this, for this, for this move, for, for, so, so he.

Sarah Wayne Callies: For agreeing to turn in Schofield, so I can't remember what happens with that. So

Paul Adelstein: his daughter, well I do, his daughter needs

Sarah Wayne Callies: lifesaving kidney care, lifesaving

Paul Adelstein: medical care, and a lot of this episode is showing that he just cannot get it while on the run because America, uh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: which parenthetically is an interestingly coin, uh.

Quintessentially American. Like just as the death penalty. Yeah. Which is the premise of season one. So many people around the world are like death penalty, right? We don't let the state execute these. Like I wonder how it feels to our [00:13:00] European, for instance, listeners being like, is this really, and yes, by the way, the, yes.

This is really what the medical system is like. Sorry. Yeah. I interrupted.

Paul Adelstein: Go on. No, so he. Makes a deal that, you know, he's gonna get his daughter medical care. He's also gonna reunite his daughter and his mother, her mother

Sarah Wayne Callies: mm-hmm. Get

Paul Adelstein: his wife outta prison.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, which is,

Paul Adelstein: yeah. And so he's basically gonna be like, I'm gonna preserve the functional part of this family.

Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna give myself up, but that's not enough. I'm also gonna give up Schofield.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right. Which of course he didn't wanna do, but Maho, you know, is like, I just, you isn't enough. Yeah. Um. So what's interesting to me, as people talk to me about this show and as we hear from fans, so many people are like, teabag is my favorite character.

And C note is A snitch. A snitch, and I don't like him. And I found myself having a big emotional reaction [00:14:00] to feeling as though, and this is. I'm owning, this is all me. I'm not saying this is like how it was written, but feeling as though the script was asking me to develop a level of compassion for c for teabag because of his tragic backstory.

Mm-hmm.

And. On the one hand, it plays into a trope that I really hate, which is that people who are sexually abused as kids become abusers because that's actually statistically not true. Um, whoa. It is true that, so this is the interesting logic of it. It is true that many people who are, uh, child abusers were abused themselves.

Right? Absolutely. It's also true that most people who are abused as children do not go on to abuse others. Right. I got mad that I felt like the show was asking me to have sympathy for someone who had [00:15:00] done so many awful things, and also like, I feel like it felt like I was watching a scene. Of psychological domestic violence between Teddy and Mrs.

Hollander from his perspective. And I was sitting there going, I don't wanna be in his perspective, I wanna be in hers. Do you know what I mean? Like, I wanna be with her being like, I am being gaslit, lied to, manipulated, held, hostage, kidnapped, like all of these things.

Paul Adelstein: I, I didn't have that response, but I hear what you're saying.

My, and again, I'm not saying it's a, it's the right response. No, no, of course. This is interesting

Sarah Wayne Callies: to observe in myself. I was like, I'm having some big emotions in

Paul Adelstein: that. I mean, I was surprised remembering how sympathetic it made me originally. Now realizing that you're getting this whole experience while he's holding her, she and her children captive.

You're like, oh, this is a moment of horrible abuse. So I that really, it wasn't like in like [00:16:00] a murder shack in Alabama. Well, it's also like, it's not like he ca it's not like he put them in the car Right. And went inside and is having these memories. It's like they're right fucking there.

Sarah Wayne Callies: They're right there

Paul Adelstein: and he's doing the same thing to them.

Yes. So, yeah, I, and also I. Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: and I, I mean, I think, I think the upshot of those scenes is supposed to be teabag looks at his life and goes, oh, dear God, I've become the thing that I always, yeah. I've it, him recognizing the intergenerational trauma and like, yeah. I mean he's, I am already becoming the thing.

I've become the thing

Paul Adelstein: he's already presumably a child rapist. Right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Um, and, and, you know, serial killer.

Paul Adelstein: And serial killer. Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: and yeah, and I, you know, whatever. I'll just say it one more time, then I'm done. I was mad at the show for asking me to feel empathy towards him and really wild to look back at the fan [00:17:00] reaction to the loyalty to teabag.

Although I, I think some of it's a lot of, and I love to hate it, but the. The, the hate piled on to see note for being a snitch. It's like, I don't know. I cannot promise that in the same situation, nor to save a sick child of mine that, sorry. No

Paul Adelstein: brainer.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Um, and we mentioned on the rewatch that we had a fan who'd written it and said, you know, I'm, I'm rewatching this as a mom.

And the C note family story really gets me now. So

Paul Adelstein: I, um, yeah, I wanna talk about that because my problem, my problem with it mostly is that I. A thing of like, well, now it's happening to me. Now I understand like, uh, certain political movements where you're like, oh, well now that I'm affected by this, now I care about it.

Right, right, right. [00:18:00] You, you're like, well, well, you, you didn't know the imagination to think that someone could care for their child that much. Like, I feel like there's a little bit of, uh. Um, I dunno that, that, that might be my, just like you said, I'm not saying I hear there's a right reaction or a wrong reaction 'cause I definitely feel things differently.

Uh, and my perspective on so many things have changed since having a child. Certainly. Um, but I'm also like, well, you know, shouldn't we just be able to expand our imaginations better and our, and our capacity for empathy?

Sarah Wayne Callies: What about this as a possible response to it, which is that yes, you see this differently now that you've got a kid, but you're also just 20 years older.

And in that time, your capacity for empathy does grow, right? Like,

Paul Adelstein: uh, don't you think a lot of, I think a lot of people move the opposite way, but Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. But. I think something about a career in the arts makes that less likely. Sure, sure. Do you know what I [00:19:00] mean? Like our job is to crack our hearts open.

Yeah. And feel shit on camera. A hundred percent. And so I guess what I'm saying is I'd be interested to have this conversation, for instance, with Barbara Eve Harris, who mention something about this, like not having kids. But is there a difference between the way you see this show 20 years ago as someone who didn't have kids?

I would imagine the answer yes is yes. Yes. I see what you're saying. Because you are just 20 years more emotionally mature and you've got a better ability to be like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't judge that. I can't judge that. I just feel like the older you get. I'll speak for only myself. The older I get, the more I'm like, yep.

Can't judge that. Yep. Can't judge that. Mm-hmm. Yep. That's not my place. Ooh. Yeah. I don't know you guys. Yeah. I would have a hard time with that. Yeah. You know?

Paul Adelstein: Um, and yet. And I'm not being clever when I say this. We are having less empathy for, for tea A. [00:20:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yes. Yeah, because I, because we're also saying like,

Paul Adelstein: yeah, fuck off.

Sorry. I don't care what happened to you. You don't get to do that to people.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And for what it's worth, I don't think that that's the most evolved response. Like I think if I were,

Paul Adelstein: I'm not suggesting, yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Spiritually like the person I most wanna be, I'd be able to be like, yeah, you know, you were hurt. And, but, but it's also, I think part of, and this is actually another thing that I think I've sort of come to the older I get is there's a point at which are you responsible for?

You're not responsible for your, for. You're not responsible for the source of your trauma as a child because you didn't put it there. But I do think there becomes a point where it's like you are responsible for the effect it has on other people as an adult. Correct. You choose to heal or you choose not to heal.

I say this is somebody who has a lot of healing to do. Mm-hmm. And like radically imperfect, but the, like, I had a tough childhood [00:21:00] response I find at a certain point I'm like, Ugh. Yeah. That's fair. And I can have empathy for that, but also then it becomes your responsibility to manage your response to that trauma so that you're not re-traumatizing other people and just passing this down and spreading it everywhere you go.

And, you know, I mean, the, the, the weird thing is, I think that's exactly in some way the realization that Teabag comes to, which is, I gotta stop the spread of this thing. I just can't, like, I wanna be a better person, but I can't. Find empathy for somebody who sexually abuses kids like I, you know, like I will work on other parts of my spirit can find, I find empathy

Paul Adelstein: for them siloed from giving them a pass.

I mean, there's a difference.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And on a different day I might too. Today. No, I have empathy for, I'm like, fucking burn. Empathy

Paul Adelstein: for you. What happened to you? Cover him. Yeah, sorry.

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:22:00] Well, Jake cover him and gasoline to light a match. Like, you know what I mean? Like I, um, uh, by the way, a slightly lighter note, you mentioned there was a shot with you on a curb that looked like a real live stunt.

Oh, that was kind of gnarly to watch. Where when we leave you like, Sarah locks the door, we're driving away from the Saka Club. We leave you behind. You have your hand on the door. Yeah. As we're driving away and you stumbled, like, tell me why.

Paul Adelstein: I feel like, I feel like the way I, the way I remember it is I put my hand on the door and 'cause you, 'cause Sarah Lock literally locks him out.

And then it was like, as he pulls away, I'll run with it for a few feet. And I think what we talked about, and I may be getting this wrong, but is that, that they'd feel they were fine with it as long as I stayed on the curb. 'cause the car in [00:23:00] the street. Right. But what's wasn't great about that was the curb kinda runs out.

I think. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you know, there's always a little more adrenaline as we've, is now well established. A little more adrenaline on the day. Yeah. That I, my foot went into the street at one point. I just lost my balance basically. And I just remember it wasn't like my, I was gonna get run over by the back of the car.

It was just more like I almost broke my ankle going down.

Sarah Wayne Callies: When you almost fell into the car as it drove away. Like it would,

Paul Adelstein: it would've been pa It was passive. It looks really,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah, it looks good. It looks great. I'm glad they got it on camera. But it also, as I was watching it, I was like, yikes, this looks like, yeah, this could have gone.

Um, yeah. Wronger, you know, it also occurs to me that. There's a great shot where Sarah manually locks the door with one of those like Yeah. Chrome pins that goes into the door. Chin,

Paul Adelstein: [00:24:00] yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Blink. I wonder how far back somebody in the writer's room called production and was like, Hey, we're gonna, we need one of those cars.

Paul Adelstein: Yes.

Sarah Wayne Callies: With a, so that it's not like close up on a button that's like, thank Well, it is a button

Paul Adelstein: actually.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, no, but like, oh, wait, did

Paul Adelstein: you, you.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Did you I physically like this was the, the, like the windows here. Oh. And, and it was physically a, like you see your boom.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. I love to go, I love those things to see it through the window and it's all

Sarah Wayne Callies: shiny androy and like, um, it's one of those things that like someone somewhere had a conversation about it.

It's great. Um, yeah. Oh, and also you mentioned something about that scene between you and Dom on the road. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: I remember having a real problem with that scene.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I somehow remember you telling me about that. I

Paul Adelstein: just didn't, I don't know. Like we had a conversation on the day or something. Tell me more. I think, I don't know.

I just remember feeling like there was [00:25:00] nothing like I wanted, like, oh, I don't think it's, well, it's written right, or I need to adjust anything. I just couldn't get like the thing about the black hole and. Like the kind of the nihilism from Kellerman felt. This is looking back at it. I don't think I could have identified it at the time.

It felt like it had come out of nowhere, like, we're gonna die. Like, like, this is useless and we're gonna die. I don't, I had trouble.

Oh, I, I, I mean, I still am, but I was pretty, uh, you know, you get a little looser as you. Go on and on. I was very misery.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm.

Paul Adelstein: And I was like, what am I, I couldn't figure out what I was trying to get from him by telling him that in that moment. Oh, I couldn't get interesting. I couldn't, like I could, I faked it.

Okay. But I couldn't figure out why is he. Telling Don why is he telling Lincoln this? Mm-hmm. Like, [00:26:00] there's not, this is all pointless. We're gonna die. We're gonna die. Um, and I'm gonna take as many people with me as I can. Um, and, you know, look, especially for

Sarah Wayne Callies: somebody who's so, so task. Well, I think maybe that's it.

Paul Adelstein: Mission, mission oriented. Now, of course, now 20 years and like you said, more maybe empathy later, I think, oh, well, obviously he's defending himself against Lincoln's accusation that he's heartbroken,

Sarah Wayne Callies: right?

Paul Adelstein: So there you go. It's just a lot. It's just like a, maybe a self diluting, but a bit of a lie, uh, which is, oh, no, no, it's just all dark and I'm gonna kill as many of 'em as I can.

And then she goes, she must have really broken your heart, man.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Do you think he means it or do you think he's just bullshitting Lincoln? Like

Paul Adelstein: Kellerman? Yeah. I think maybe he doesn't, I think I could've, it would've been easier for me to play if I was just like, he doesn't really a hundred percent mean this.

He's just, he's not gonna give, [00:27:00] he's not gonna tell this guy the fucking truth. Yeah. Like you don't need to know about me.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, I think it played, I

Paul Adelstein: think it played fine.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I like the way it was shot French, the back overs,

Paul Adelstein: French overs is how I've always heard that described back over. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Same thing.

Um, I think, first of all, did they cross shoot it? Did they, because you can do that with French overs. I think

Paul Adelstein: they did.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So that's kind of nice also 'cause you're reacting in real time

Paul Adelstein: also. It's one of those things where it's almost, the scene almost dictates that it's back shot ba back overs because we're pressed up against the ledge of a building

Sarah Wayne Callies: and a real ledge of a real building.

Yeah, you're

Paul Adelstein: not, you can't get,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah. You'd say you have to back people up. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: And it would look shitty. It would look like, where's the camera? Are they floating out in space?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's still what I think is interesting. What can be interesting about. That angle is often, it's a little like, [00:28:00] do you believe them?

Do they believe each other? Like it can evoke a kind of like, uh, because it's the first real conversation you guys ever had, just the two of you, right? Yeah. Um, and it's interesting. It's one of those cool prison break moments that I kind of like where it's like, oh, these characters have been. In the same show and not just the two of them in a scene for, you know, 37 episodes now.

Yeah. Give or take. That's right. What do they have to say to each other? What do we have

Paul Adelstein: to say to each other?

Sarah Wayne Callies: And that's, that's kind of interesting. Um.

Paul Adelstein: Oh yeah. I just remember never feeling good about it. Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: this, I remember you talking to me about day. This is gonna become theme.

Paul Adelstein: This is gonna become a theme as we move forward this season.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, okay, so actually on that theme,

Paul Adelstein: yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: After our last episode, I was thinking about the [00:29:00] pregnancy. Oh. And thinking about there were certain. Uh, aspects of that performance that I thought were too restrained,

Paul Adelstein: um, of your performance?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. Uh, no. Yours, I'm giving you notes now, please. Um, no. Of mine. And I felt that way actually in the scene at the Pope's house too, and I remember on the day feeling like this was directed and staged and kind of written as a conversation between.

Michael and Pope, and the best thing that I can do is kind of be in the background, which even at the time I was like, right, but Pope and Sarah worked together for years before Michael was ever there. Mm. But you know, it's just a, like, it's fine, you know, it's, it's his show. But I still, I still felt like the, like it was a little too restrained and held back and it was an interesting, I.

I can't [00:30:00] remember if it was partly because I was just throwing up all the time and felt constantly ill, but I also think there was a little bit of a, like

in those early months of the pregnancy, a resistance to flooding my system with the like constant chaos, panic. Stakes of the show.

Paul Adelstein: Do you think that was c Sorry, go on. I interrupt. It was not conscious.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. It was not conscious. But as I'm watching my work in the first two seasons, there's more times in this episode, in the previous one that I'm like, I don't know.

I think if I were directing this, I'd be like, I think this can mean more to you. I think you can, can be a little more desperate. I think

Paul Adelstein: a little more outta control or a little more, uh, or, uh, riled up.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, I mean, the stakes I think are a little higher. Like I love the scene between Michael and Sarah where it's like, you still owe me dinner, because that's their vibe.

Their vibe is like, [00:31:00] we're very casual with each other. This is my way of saying, I love you, and I will wait for you and I, blah, blah, blah. Fine. But in the scene with Pope, the need to step forward and go, please fucking listen to me. You are saying nothing I haven't already said. I, uh, I don't know. It was, uh, I, it was an interesting thing to observe.

Paul Adelstein: I hear, I hear you. Um, nice mug. I Thank you. Would push back on that, given what I see just as a, as a viewer and using my director brain, which is she's, it feels like it's all in there, but it, it, what it felt to me like both Michael and Sarah know that. Any histrionics aren't gonna work with this man. Like you, you know this man very well.

Like you said, he's an authority guy. He's a by the book guy, but he does have a, you know, a [00:32:00] deep sense of justice that you were trying to remain calm because the more hysterical and mm-hmm unhinged, it's gonna be less convincing. Frankly, yes. I mean, I thought it was super effective to say, I've said, I've asked all these same questions, like yeah, I've said all these same things to Michael.

It's, that's very effective because it's very rational.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. I, I think there's a world, a world where you can see that she's holding the lid on. To more underneath. That's all anyway. Not to over. No,

Paul Adelstein: I get it. Not to overthink, it also must be strange. I mean, just like with anything, when you, when revisiting, you were visiting the day that you did it and you're like, oh, right.

I remember I, I had a stomach ache. You're like, oh really? I had, you really had, you really had a stomach ache.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I was growing a human, yeah. [00:33:00] Growing a human. Um. Is there anything else you wanna talk about before we take a little break and do some fun fan stuff?

Paul Adelstein: Camera Camille Furious. Insurance. Insurance.

Camille First Dead. Oh, I felt, yeah, I remember. When we broke Steadman out of his place and Kellerman kills the two, two of the guys guarding him, it felt really like, oh, this is a next level, just kind of random, just reigning random death down on people.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh.

Paul Adelstein: Um, you know, like everyone else, Kellerman is killed.

They would kind of in a direct threat or. Uh, and then this one is just like, just murder a guy in the street. It just felt very like, wow, he's really, he just doesn't get care anymore.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And we don't really care about the character either. I mean, we don't even know built up in any way. Like you said, it's a goon,

Paul Adelstein: just like it's a goon.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember that's point. I remember on day being [00:34:00] like, there's no, like, okay, I guess that's what we just, we're just gonna shoot this guy. I guess that's what he does now. It makes sense. It makes sense as an escalation, certainly.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, and you did just say, I'm gonna take as many of them down with you as I can.

Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. But yeah, that's an interesting point. Um,

Paul Adelstein: and then do you wanna take a break and take some fan

Sarah Wayne Callies: questions? Let's get to that after this break.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, okay. Great. We'll be right back. Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay, so this week in lieu of fan questions, um, we have had. A few people write in, uh, either on Instagram or our, uh, email and very sweetly ask us to shout out some wonderful birthdays. So this is the birthday shout out [00:35:00] episode. Okay. Which we'll not necessarily make a habit out, out of, but I thought these were very sweet.

Um, so. Uh, we've got a couple of these. There's three. Paul, do you wanna read one? Yes, I do. Do you want me to start? All right, take it away. Uh, the first

Paul Adelstein: one comes from Eva B in Germany who wrote us this message. Hi guys. First of all, I want to tell you how much we enjoy watching you two on prison break and how we also enjoy listening to your podcast.

My little sister and I just recently started watching the show and it has already become one of our favorites. She's now turning 14 on May 5th. And I was wondering whether you could maybe wish her a happy birthday. I know this would be an amazing surprise and for sure would be one of the best birthday gifts she's ever gotten.

That's why I would be incredibly grateful if you would help me out. All the best and lots of love from Germany. Eva, you're a wonderful big sister, so Eva's little sister. Happy 14th. That's us birthday. Uh, what? Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: we don't know your name.

Paul Adelstein: We don't know your name, but, so maybe Eva's not [00:36:00] that great of an older sister, but, um, I hope she knows your name.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Either I, I think she does. Okay. Happy birthday. I think she will.

Paul Adelstein: And thank you for watching the show and thank you for. Uh, watching the podcast

Sarah Wayne Callies: and, um, now you should start thinking about what you're gonna do for Eva for her birthday, right? Yeah. So happy birthday to you. And then here's another one from Poland.

Oh, um, this is from Alexandra J. She says, hello, Sarah and Paul, my friend, Kinga and I are your big fans. The series you created is incredibly important to us. We watched it together during classes in college. I thought this was funny. As I was writing it, I was like, oh, well thank you, but also. Pay attention.

Education is important anyway. Um, I can honestly say it was the best time in college. Your acting allowed us to see a hundred percent your dedication and commitment. We talk a lot about your series. We talk about the great love you managed to show Sarah, but also the great transformation that can happen in a person and what a second chance means, which you showed Paul.

Hmm. Also, we listen to your podcast, which allows us to relive these wonderful moments. I know it's an [00:37:00] unusual request, but I would be the happiest person on earth if you gave me the honor of recording a short video with wishes for my friend. Kinga whom I love so much on her birthday, it would be a dream come true.

I send you lots of love and kisses. Kinga is turning 22 on August 1st, so happy birthday to you.

Paul Adelstein: Happy birthday Kinga.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, I love that you guys have this amazing friendship. Do take your education seriously. And by the way, to both Alexandra and Eva b, um, your English is excellent, phenomenal, because you're clearly writing us in a second language and, uh, bravo to you.

Paul Adelstein: And finally, Carol O is turning 15 on June 3rd, and we wanna wish her a happy birthday too. Happy birthday Carol. O.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Happy birthday to all these wonderful young people and yeah. Cool. The people who love them, which I think is amazing. Um, and if you, uh, have a shout out for somebody you wanna take care of, [00:38:00] life is hard.

You can call and leave us a voicemail and we can shout out your friends too. It's 4 0 1 3 P break. That's three P-B-R-E-A-K. And with that, we're gonna wrap it up with a final question that I have for Paul. Oh, um, I know you've answered our question of this season. So here's this one for you. If you had a secret box in a club somewhere, oh, to leave a final mystery to someone in your life after you died.

Oh, Paul, what's in the box? What's, what's in your wallet? What's in the box? Wait,

Paul Adelstein: that's so many questions. In one. What's in the

Sarah Wayne Callies: box? What's in the box? You have died, you leave a mystery key,

Paul Adelstein: right? To somebody.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Somebody.

Paul Adelstein: And I want to give them,

Sarah Wayne Callies: and what's, what's in the box?

Paul Adelstein: I mean, probably some family stuff,

Sarah Wayne Callies: not your like solo album that is unreleased.

Right?

Paul Adelstein: So a bunch of hard [00:39:00] drives with half finished songs on them. Like, I don't know, you figure it out. Make me famous. There is, uh, a, like a, a, I have a firebox, which is um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: okay.

Paul Adelstein: Exactly what it sounds like. Smart in California. Yeah. Uh, and in, there's birth certificates and shit like that, but there's also like a few family things.

There's a letter I received from my father. There's, uh, a letter I received from my grandmother there, and there is my grandfa. This is what made me think of that. My mother's father, my grandfather, uh, there's a co there is his journal that he kept on the boat. From Europe to America when he was Wow. 18, 17.

And in the journal, he's trying to learn English, basically. That's why he's writing it in English. 'cause he's going to, coming to the New world. And like literally from where? Uh, from Poland and it, uh, Russia, Poland. And it [00:40:00] describes seeing the Statue of Liberty. Like it's the whole thing. Oh wow. And it's, of course, this.

You know, it's coming apart. It's a hundred years old. Yeah. Um, so that would be in there, maybe That would be in the, in the cigar box.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's beautiful.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. It's cool.

Sarah Wayne Callies: See, I knew you'd have a good answer.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, cool. Thank you. All right. I'm gonna ask you

Paul Adelstein: that one. That's gonna be a good one. So be better prepared for that one.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You'll forget we have a guest next episode. Oh, I'm gonna get out of it. Um, no way. Okay. Thank you for listening. As always, we invite you to check out our watch Party episodes where you can watch the show with our real-time commentary. They're available on our Patreon community, which you can join on the show page wherever you're listening right now, or in the link of the show's Instagram bio.

Thank you, and please be good to each other in hard times.

Paul Adelstein: Hmm. Prison Breaking With Sarah and Paul is a Caliber Studio Productions.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Your hosts have been inmates, Sarah Wayne Callies, and Paul Stein.

Paul Adelstein: Our prison warden is producer Ben Haber.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Cutting us up in the yard is Editor Luke Singer.

Paul Adelstein: [00:41:00] The front man of our rock band is Paul Adelstein.

Who made the music?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Our prison yard tattoo artist logo and brand designer is John Nunzio and Little Big Brands. Check him out at www.littlebigbrands.com

Paul Adelstein: and follow the show on YouTube and Instagram at Prison Break Podcast. Email us at pb podcast@caliberstudio.com or leave us a message at 3 0 1 4 0 1.

Three P break.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Prison. Breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a caliber studio production. Thank you for listening.

Paul Adelstein: See you soon.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Bye.