What that plan looked like the next few months is

losing all my friends, losing my relationship.

And I'm like, "Wait, hold on a second. I thought

this was gonna be good."

I think sometimes we just have a misconception on

what it means to really follow Jesus.

If you don't have the understanding of, "Hey, I'm

in a battle,"

then it is very hard to live in a way where you're

preparing for battle.

I can be motivated to do something, but that

motivation will come and go.

You don't need more motivation. You need

discipline.

This is the Made to Advance Podcast.

I'm your host, Brian Aulick.

We're here to inspire and equip you for your best

future.

Well, welcome everybody. It is so good to be with

you today.

And man, I've asked you this before, but I'm

gonna ask again.

If you have not rated or reviewed the podcast,

please do that.

Man, that helps us so much. It's an encouragement,

helps us reach more people.

It helps us get great guests. So please rate and

review us, share us.

Let the world know about Made to Advance.

But today we're gonna do something a little bit

different.

I have in the studio two of my very favorite

pastors in the world.

Two of our pastors here at Engedi, Jordan Humbarger,

who's our pastor over our Young Adults Ministry,

and Roger Cruz, who's our pastor over Engedi

Español.

And what we're gonna do today is have a little

chat around some things

that have everything to do with moving forward in

life.

And so I think you're gonna enjoy this. I think

we're gonna have some fun.

At least that's the goal. And so, Jordan and

Roger, welcome to the show.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having us.

So good to be on.

So, yeah, you know, I was thinking about, before

we jump right into the topic,

we're just coming off of Tulip Time. I was

thinking about that.

Tulip Time is, for the listeners, like it's, you

know, this big old, like,

tulip party that happens in Holland, Michigan.

It's so unusual.

The only place, tulip party.

Although, funny thing, that a dude I know in

Seattle,

not Seattle, in Washington State, though,

they have their own tulip festival.

Apparently, there's tons of Dutch people and tulips.

I never knew. So he sent me a picture of it.

And I was like, it looks like here, but with

mountains.

We need to step our game up.

So we do. And we need to get some mountains.

Mountains against the, as the backdrop to the tulips,

actually looks way cooler than just flatland.

But I thought we'd say, because I was driving in,

and I'm like, oh, the traffic's so much better.

And I thought, I'm gonna ask these guys,

did you do anything cool for tulip time or not?

What did it look like?

- Yeah, not necessarily like, I don't wanna say

it's cool.

It's just something that we've done the last few

years,

'cause my daughter has participated

in the tulip time parade.

They do like an elementary parade every year.

So the last couple years, I've been the one

to not just attend, but also set up.

- Oh, is that right?

- Because people, you know, come through

and it gets really packed.

So I go to the gym near the downtown area.

So then I'm there like five in the morning,

putting down blankets and chairs and setting it

up.

And then we get there later in the day.

- So you're one of those guys that does the

blankets.

- I'm one of those guys.

- 'Cause I saw those out on the street.

Full dad mode.

- Yeah, full dad mode.

- Just to get the right picture.

- Yeah, that's cool.

- But yeah, so I've done it a few years now,

and it's fun, it's so great.

Weather's been great the last few years.

So that's been awesome.

- Yeah, that's cool.

Jordan, you guys do anything?

- Yeah, mine is the total opposite.

We stayed far away from tulip time.

We've done our course, we ran through it,

and we're like, you know, all the tourists that

come,

we bless you, you have your fun at tulip time.

We are gonna be inside doing our own thing.

So what about you, B?

- Yeah, we were the same way.

And some years we'll go down and grab something

like junk food or whatever,

but this year it's funny because we didn't do

anything.

And I was going through the grocery store,

and I'm in line, and somebody asks me,

like, "Hey, did you see?"

This was like, I think on the Saturday

or the Sunday at the end.

And they were like, "Oh, did you do anything

with tulip time?"

And I'm like, you know, just in my own world.

And so I'm talking pretty loudly.

I'm like, "No, my kids are all done with tulip

time stuff."

And so it's the best.

Now, I knew the day they were done with it,

I was like, "We're never going back."

Then I look at the line next to me,

and the person who is like one of the head people

of all of tulip time in full Dutch regalia,

and like everything is right next to me.

And I was like, "Ugh, awkward."

It always happens like that, don't it?

Awkward, yeah.

So anyway, but I'm thankful for tulip time.

It's a lot of customers,

brings in good business to the city.

And we drive downtown on Friday mornings and get

coffee,

and we'll park by the tulips.

So that's our participation.

So anyway, well, we just started a new series

at Engedi called "Built for Battle."

And so we're going through the book of 1 Timothy.

And the way we launched it,

this is why I thought it'd be fun

to have a conversation today

just around this whole subject,

is we really launched the whole series

looking at like the framing verses where battle

comes up.

Paul is writing Timothy,

he opens with like battle fight kind of imagery,

and he closes with it.

And just for those who are listening,

I'll just kind of mention the verses.

Chapter one, verse 18, Paul's like,

"Timothy, my son, I'm giving you this command

"and keeping what the prophecies once made about

you,

"so that by recalling them, you may fight the

battle well."

So that's like chapter one.

And then circles back at the end in chapter six,

verse 12,

and he's like, "Fight the good fight of faith."

And so really, it's like he frames up this whole

thing

with kind of battle fight language.

And I just thought it'd be interesting

to talk a little bit about

as we kind of get into this of like,

what's that image for you guys of spiritual

battle

or the fight, kind of what's it meant in your

lives?

And yeah, do you think it's important?

Is it like a major, major image for you?

Or is it like, "Yeah, it doesn't come up much.

"Yeah, what are your thoughts?"

- Yeah, I think for me, it's been one of those

reminders

that every day is a battle.

And I think the reason why that's important

is because we tend to forget that we're in a

battle.

And so what I've realized in my personal life

is when I just do things on a day-to-day,

I'm living my faith just very casual,

just very like, just out of routine or things

like that,

that sometimes I think we can all fall into,

I come to realization I'm living this way

'cause I've forgotten that I'm in a battle.

And I think the imagery that comes to me

is how fighters prepare for a battle.

And if you're not, if you don't have the

understanding of,

"Hey, I'm in a battle," then it is very hard to

live in a way

where you're preparing for battle.

And that's where I think for me,

it's been just such a big thing of like,

I will only prepare for what I know I'm facing.

And so I think that that's why this verse

or this passage has been very key in my life,

because again, when I think that imagery of

fighter

and how much they have to prepare,

we got a guy who does bare knuckle fighting at

our campus.

And when he is fighting- - Come on.

- Is he on the security team?

- He's not, but I'd love to know

if he's on the security team. - Oh, bro.

That's your campus pastor flex right there.

We've got a guy- - No big deal.

- We got a guy who does bare knuckle fighting.

I'm just saying, I don't know what you got,

but I've got a firefighter.

- Yeah, yeah. (laughing)

- Is he on our hospitality?

- Oh, no, yeah.

I wish he was like my personal security guy.

But it's interesting 'cause like,

when he's like preparing for a fight,

just like how he prepares, the amount of training

he does,

the amount of like eating habits that he like,

and he's constantly living in this place,

'cause he knows he just got done with a fight,

but another fight, it's on his way.

And so that's what comes to my mind is like,

preparing for what you know you're in.

And the only way you prepare for a battle

is if you know you're in a battle.

- Yeah, that's good.

- Yeah, yeah.

The idea of being in the battle,

in American, I think Christianity,

we think oftentimes God wants to bless us.

Well, he blesses us also while we're in the

battle.

He didn't just take the battle from us.

And sometimes when I think about this,

fight the good fight,

I feel like I am Nacho Libre in this battle.

Probably more Escalito with the weight look,

but I just feel like, man, I just struggle

sometimes.

Like, I just feel like we don't always win right

there

like we thought we would.

We think, if I just say this prayer, then it'll

be done.

The struggle will be done.

I'll be done and over with this.

And then it comes up again and you're like,

what's going on?

It's a fight.

We're in a battle.

The devil comes back at us.

Our flesh comes back at us.

The world's influence comes back at us.

And so we gotta stay in this fight.

And it's hard.

- That's a good point too, 'cause you're like,

when people, you make some progress,

but then you fail at something and you're like,

why did I fail?

Or I thought I had this,

or I thought I beat it or whatever.

That's a good point of like giving yourself

maybe some grace every now and again to be like,

hey, you won today, but the devil doesn't quit.

It's not like, oh, that was victory.

So you're done and you're in the clear for good.

Like he's coming at you and we'll keep coming at

you.

And that's a really, really good point.

What do you guys think of when you're thinking

of the kind of the training mindset,

what comes to mind like that, like your fighter

friend?

We gotta get him on the pod sometime,

the bare knuckle here.

I don't know, that's some scary stuff.

I don't know.

- That'd be great.

He's definitely a personality.

I think you'd love him on the podcast.

I think he'd be a great story as well.

- But what do you think of with training?

What's it look like for you?

- Yeah, I think the biggest thing is discipline.

And I remember years back for me,

discipline was me coming to the realization

that I'm not a very disciplined person.

And I think for a while I struggled with like

this idea

of like, I'll just get by, or I'll just get

through this,

or the main factor that I battled with my

personal faith

was I was always looking for someone to motivate

me

to do something.

Or like in my spiritual life,

it's probably been more of like, where's the next

event?

Where's the next conference?

Where's the next moment where I'm in worship

and the spirit shows up and I'm motivated

'cause I experienced something.

I think those are good moments,

but I came to the realization that all of that

will not help me unless I'm a disciplined person.

That at times there are just things where I have

felt

and I've learned that, that I can be motivated

to do something, but that motivation will come

and go.

And the problem with me was when I was motivated,

like I wanted to conquer the world,

I wanted to reach people for Jesus,

I wanted to read and pray my Bible every day,

but that would kind of fade away.

And then I was looking for where's the next event

so I could get motivated again.

And that's when the spirit just really spoke to

me

and said, you don't need more motivation,

you need discipline.

And I've come to realize that discipline

is those places and those times where you're not

motivated,

but you're getting it done.

You're not like, oh, I got this really high wave

of I really wanna do this or I wanna do that.

But because you have that discipline in your life,

you're just getting it done, you're doing it.

And not out of routine, obviously to be in

relationship

and all that, but there is this factor of like,

it is the discipline that kind of keeps you in a

place

and in this rhythm of life where you're not just

growing

or learning, but you're also connecting more with

God.

So for me, it's been discipline.

- Yeah, that's so good, Will.

And I think of like, even though I get what you're

saying

when you're saying like, sometimes it's not about

getting the motivation, it's about just the

discipline.

I find a lot of times when it is those moments

where I'm choosing because of discipline,

the motivation still comes, but it just comes

after the discipline.

Like I think about that, especially worth working

out.

Now, some days working out just feels like

straight discipline, but more often than not,

even on the days where it starts by feeling like

discipline,

like I am just doing this because this is what I

do.

Once I get going, I feel like, okay, there's the

motivation.

Like, this is why I do it.

It's like I had to shake it off a little bit.

Sometimes with God too, like, you know,

discipline,

spiritual disciplines.

I don't know if you've ever been like in worship

and you don't necessarily, you know, feel like

going there,

but then you do, and then as you're worshiping,

you're going, oh, okay, there it is.

I think it was John Piper who said something like,

sometimes duty gets you there, but joy takes you

home.

And I think that's true sometimes, you know,

where it's like, okay, I wasn't in the mood for

this,

but you know, it was duty, discipline, all that.

But then like something shifted in the moment,

yeah.

- Yeah, and when it comes to that, like, man,

we had to start with the discipline.

I feel like whenever I think about that

fighting athletic imagery, I think of a team.

I mean, we are the church, we're a team, we're a

body.

And I think of any pro athlete who does anything

great,

they had a team around them.

They didn't just do it on their own.

You know, the team helped them stay disciplined.

Of course, we got Holy Spirit with us,

but we also need each other and, you know,

reading the scriptures, getting in the discipline

that,

I hated reading, hated it.

But when I got around some guys who knew how to

read

scripture and helped me understand it,

I started going, man, I actually love opening my

Bible now.

I don't know what I'm reading.

I actually have the tools now because these

people

have helped train me in this fight with these

disciplines.

That team aspect is huge.

- Yeah, that's a great point.

It's funny 'cause like, I mean, I watch what I

eat,

but I don't, some people are really disciplined

about it.

So I had this trainer that came to my house

'cause he was gonna show me this, you know,

kind of new way of doing what I do in the morning

and weights and all this.

And we got talking about food and it was

interesting

because just, I mean, he's very disciplined

about what he eats and it shows, all right?

It was like, I don't know, it's weird, you know,

working out with a guy that looks like he could

just

destroy you at any moment, but he gets talking

about what he eats.

And it was, I said to my wife later,

just being in the presence of him and his food

discipline,

I could tell it was, it rubbed off on me.

And I would love to say it permanently rubbed off,

but again, this is your point about community,

Jordan, and being in relationship because for

many days,

I would say I was like having this heightened

level of,

man, I like what he's doing, I wanna be like that.

Now, it was a one-time meeting.

(both laughing)

So needless to say, maybe there was some residual,

but I can't say I'm living in that place,

but it really struck me, like I said this to

Christina

just the other day, I was like, man,

just being around Matt made me wanna eat better.

It just like lifted me, I guess.

- Interesting, the power of community, yeah.

- And then Friday rolled by and there goes the

cheesecakes.

(both laughing)

- I feel like the battle, to me, the battle

imagery,

there are so many things that you can,

like you can get caught in the routine,

like you're talking about and just kind of doing

your thing.

For me, it's funny because the battle imagery,

and this, I don't know if this is a more male

thing or not,

but I like the image 'cause it just,

the fight thing is very motivating to me.

It's like, let's go, there's something to fight

for.

I mean, love and other metaphors about love and

relationship

are obviously really important too.

Fight isn't the only metaphor for what it means

to follow Jesus in the Bible,

but there's something about it for me that like,

it just, I don't know, does it have that kind of

like,

yeah, let's go kind of thing for you guys or not

so much?

- Yeah, I think for sure it does.

It's one of those like where you're explaining,

it puts you in this place of like, let's go

conquer,

let's go do something, let's be active.

Again, yeah, just thinking about like what it

means

to like be in a fight or what it means to like,

hey, you gotta go do this, you're in a battle

type thing.

So I think for me, it definitely, I resonate with

that.

- Yeah, that fight, there's something to win

and there's stakes.

There's something to win and there are things at

stake.

And so you can't take it flippantly, it's serious.

Not so much where it's just consuming

where you can't have joy in it,

but man, there's a seriousness about this.

And I know you've done a great job, Brian,

leading the church through that,

the urgency of people who don't know Christ.

And we are in a fight and we're fighting for them.

They don't even know they're in a fight and they're

losing.

We gotta fight for them.

- Why do you guys think it's so easy?

I mean, like you were saying this earlier, Roger,

to like not, I guess to slip out of that

mentality

of we're in a fight and we're just, I don't know,

going through the motions or doing whatever.

I mean, why is it so, if this is as big of a

reality

in scripture as it is, how come it's so easy

to have our minds drift out of that mode?

Any thoughts on that?

- First thing that comes to mind for me

is just our view of what it means to be a Christ

follower.

We think, once we believe in Jesus,

God's gonna make everything better.

And I remember coming to Christ when I was 16

and what a radical moment it was

to experience God's presence, to hear His loving

voice say,

I have a plan for your life, hope for your life.

And then what that plan looked like the next few

months

is losing all my friends, losing my relationship,

totally not knowing what I'm gonna do with my

life.

And I'm like, wait, hold on a second.

I thought this was gonna be good.

And now I realized, oh, I'm in the fight now.

I'm in the fight.

And so I think sometimes we just have a

misconception

on what it means to really follow Jesus.

- Yeah, I think other times too,

I think there's just this place

of wanting to live comfortably,

of not really realizing that when you're in a

fight,

you're gonna have to take risk.

Or when you're in a fight, you are gonna be

uncomfortable.

You are gonna not like it.

I mean, when I think of a fighter,

sweaty, messy, there's blood involved,

like depending, you can get as gruesome as you

want.

But at the end of the day,

it's like, it's one of those things where like,

when you think of those things,

it's an uncomfortable situation.

And I think that a lot of times we just default

to comfortness, we default to what is just easy

and what's not gonna get us to wanna maybe press

in a little bit more or do something.

And I think that's part of the problem too,

is just we start to default to what's comfortable

versus understanding and knowing like,

hey, we're in a battle and because we're in a

battle,

we gotta fight.

- Oh, and if we are in a battle, what are we up

against?

- Yeah.

- What are those things that we are up against

that are fighting against us?

A battle isn't just one way, it's two ways.

What are those things we're up against?

- Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, to me, I think in those three broad

categories

of the world, the flesh and the devil always,

the world, and that's in some ways where I think

with what you were saying, Roger,

it feels like the world has the dominant kind of,

I mean, the dominant view is just try

to have a comfortable life.

I think at the end of the day, that really is

kind

of the goal, I mean, for the broader culture.

So that's where I think of the world and the

flesh,

you know, our own inclinations and then the devil,

obviously, as a major enemy, I guess.

When you guys think of your primary opponents in

the fight,

what do you think of?

And I'm looking for a verse as you guys are

talking,

there's a verse that you, something you said,

Roger, triggered, so I'm listening,

but I'm gonna look at this verse too.

Yeah, I'd say for me, I think I'm more sinful

than I suppose myself to be at times.

And so I would have to say the flesh,

I've heard of people, you cast out devils,

Jesus has done it, you can cut off these negative

influences

from the world around you, but I can't cast off

or cut off my flesh, like I carry this thing

with me everywhere I go, I gotta carry my cross

daily.

So this is like the daily fight I'm in,

sure the devil will have his oppressive moments

on me,

in more particular, or the world around me

will have a stronger influence in certain seasons,

but I carry this body of sin with me wherever I

go.

And so I just, I'm in the fight within.

Yeah, and the verse I was looking for,

I can't find it, it might be in 2 Timothy,

but he basically says to Timothy, like,

"Hey, you're gonna suffer and get ready

to suffer for the gospel."

And I don't know, that's a really challenging

notion,

it's driving me crazy that I cannot find that.

I'm finding the verse where Paul talks about him

suffering,

but anyway, it's like straight up commissioning

you

for suffering, runs directly against like,

kind of the flesh and the world, I would say.

Yeah, I don't know, what do you think, Roger?

- Yeah, I mean, I think I agree for sure

with what Jordan was saying, like,

of the battle that I have faced in has always

been like,

my own personal sinful nature.

And I do think though that they all kind of play

into it,

and so there's my sinful nature, there is the

world,

and there's the devil.

And I think when it comes to situations in my

life,

where I've come to realize like,

man, I really struggle with this,

but then I also see it play out in our culture,

and I see it play out how the enemy uses that

to like, try to really bring me down.

And so one of the things that I think

that's been a battle of mine is discouragement.

Like, that's like a personal thing of mine

where when things don't go well, I just get

discouraged.

And that's been a constant battle of like,

especially if it's something either personal

or in ministry where I've put a lot of effort,

I put a lot of time, I did all the work,

and it just didn't work out the way

I thought it was gonna work out, and I get

discouraged.

And then I see how it's around our culture

where then that discouragement,

at times it's like, leads to comparison.

They're doing great, you're not doing so great.

This person is better, you're not better.

And again, it's just like, you see it in our

surroundings.

What does it look like to be a successful leader

or person or business owner or athlete

or whatever anyone might be battling with?

And then the enemy comes and attacks you

and just, you're not good enough.

- Kicks you when you're down.

- Yeah, it just kicks you when you're down.

So I feel like in some way, they're all connected,

but I do think the biggest thing is like,

I know it's something that I have personally,

something that I have to battle with,

because again, when things don't go well,

I get discouraged.

So I've had to navigate those things of like

saying,

how do I get myself out of this discouragement

so that I don't start comparing myself

to other people in our culture

and so that I don't allow to believe the lies

of the enemy that come at me.

- Yeah, so like, there's like,

I think what you're getting at, it sounds like,

is that kind of almost like a reciprocal

relationship.

I mean, ultimately, it seems like Satan was the

author

of obviously, "Fallenness" from Genesis 3

and whatnot, so it's like, ultimately,

he's been responsible for a broken culture.

We've got this broken human nature,

but what I hear you saying is like,

when you're prone to discouragement, let's say,

was that initially from the devil or was it in

the flesh?

I don't know, and would you say,

but I think what I definitely hear you saying

is the devil will end up using that.

Do you think initially, do you put that in the

category

of, oh, that's my flesh, or do you say, oh, it's

the devil?

Or do you not? - No, I would say

it's the flesh. - Yeah, yeah.

- I think, and this is where like,

some of the stuff that I've battled with in my

life,

not just discouragement, but other things in my

life

have been things that I see in my own family,

that I see like how, especially growing up early

on,

even though my dad wasn't with me for a big part

of my life,

like, I saw when he was discouraged

because he would just give up on it.

And that's the same symptoms that I feel.

Like, when things don't go well, I'm like,

I just wanna do what he did, and I just wanna let

it go,

or I wanna get up and leave like how he did

because life wasn't going well.

And so those are the things that I go,

this is just my sinful nature.

This is something that I deal with and battle

with.

But yes, definitely the world uses that through

comparison.

And in this example that I'm giving,

and the enemy comes with lies

and tries to beat you down when you're down.

- I agree with you.

I do think it originates from our flesh,

but maybe Roger or Brian, what is the devil's

tactics?

What are some of his ways he creeps in

where he does initiate?

He is the starter of that destructive spiral

that we then self-condemn ourselves about

when it was him and he's just sneaky.

Maybe it's a big or a subtle thing.

- Yeah, I think that's a great question.

And it's interesting 'cause I was,

of course, been reading 1 Timothy now multiple

times.

And one of the things I have never,

I just actually made some notes on this today.

I have never appreciated before

how much the devil comes up in the book of 1

Timothy.

I always think of 1 Timothy as Paul's mentoring

him,

and just building in and saying,

here's how you grow and all this.

And so I found, let's see, one, two, three,

kind of four, five different references.

And it's a short book.

I mean, there's only six chapters.

But at one point, and this comes back to your

question,

Jordan, he's like, well, the first reference

is when he talks about these guys

who have not held onto faith and a good

conscience

and have rejected the faith.

And then he's like, I handed them over to Satan

to be taught not to blaspheme.

So that's number one.

But then he said under the elder qualifications,

he says the person shouldn't be a recent convert,

or they might be conceited, like become proud,

and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

So there it's like a proud attitude

sort of was the gateway to falling

under the same judgment as the devil.

That's pretty strong words.

And then he must have a good reputation

so he doesn't fall into disgrace and into the

devil's trap.

So I'm like, hmm, okay.

And that's chapter three, chapter four,

he's like, the spirit clearly says that in later

times,

some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving

spirits

and things taught by demons.

So that's interesting 'cause it's like,

now it's like false teaching with,

no, this isn't just, oh, they just got it wrong.

I mean, these are, he's like, follow deceiving

spirits

and ideas basically taught by demons.

Again, strong language.

And then he's talking about in chapter five,

counseling younger women to marry

so that they will, and have kids, manage their

homes well,

give the enemy no opportunity.

This is the enemy referring to Satan,

give the enemy no opportunity for slander.

And he goes, some have in fact already turned

to follow Satan.

And it's not like Satan worship as we think about

it.

It's they like got off into this world

of missing God's purpose and talking

and kind of wasting their life.

So where I'm coming back to your question of like,

how does the devil work?

None of these things seem overly satanic.

- It's not like this big flag.

- Yeah. - No big red flag.

- It's like bad ideas and false teaching.

It's pride.

It's having too much like leisure time

where you start just wasting your life.

And I don't know, that's just, how's that hit you

guys?

I mean, to me, it's like, oh man,

those are very pedestrian kind of like commonplace

things.

It doesn't feel like the devil's coming at me

with,

I don't know, big attacks and crazy dreams

and like some outward person who's making

accusations

or something.

It's just like pride.

I don't know, how's that hit you?

- These subtle things.

It reminds me of C.S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters,

from the demonics perspective, how they attack us.

And they're real subtle.

It's like getting us to believe we're doing

something

in the name of God.

Oh, this is what God wants.

Oh, this is good.

But not in his way.

You know, there's these little subtle shifts

on how we go about it.

And it just, that slow drift away,

that slow little deception, little bit.

And then we follow it.

And then by the time we realize it,

oh man, we've already hit destruction.

You know, it's those little things.

I feel, at least in my life,

I've never seen like this big, big, huge thing of

like,

oh, I know that's the demonic.

Well, I just fell to it.

No, it's like these little subtle compromises

or these little temptations.

And then you go, ah, and you lean right into it.

- Yeah, and I think that's good,

because I remember growing up in church,

like you only saw something that was demonic

if there was like this oppression,

or like you felt like, I don't know,

you were seeing shadows, or you were like,

just very, very more on the spiritual realm

than on things that you deal with on a day to day.

And I think that that's key,

because sometimes we do think the attacks that

are on me

are just something that's super big and huge.

And it's gonna be this big oppression

that you're gonna feel or sense.

And the reality is that he comes at us more

with these little lies that are drifting us

and pulling us away than we realize.

And I think that is the tactic.

The tactic is, how can I sneak in in this

so that I'm drifting away?

And by the time they realize they're so far away

that they've never realized

they've been losing the battle this whole time,

just to go back into this theme of like,

the fight and the battle that we're in.

- Doesn't Paul say, you know,

he masquerades as an angel of light?

You know, he appears one way.

And then in, is it 1st or 2nd Timothy?

He says, you know, they have an appearance of godliness,

but they deny its power.

You know, like there's this appearance.

He makes you think, makes it look a certain way,

but then what's really behind it or inside it

is hollow, demonic, you know, empty.

- Yeah, and that is a weird thing.

The passage you're talking about,

I think is in the context of like talking about,

I think the word would be the aesthetics who like,

or I would say, don't get married, you know,

and don't resist basically worldly pleasures

at different levels.

And it sounds very spiritual.

You could see people saying that like,

oh, it's self-denial and it's all this.

And it's weird, like it's cloaked

in this hyper spiritual kind of a veneer.

I do think, I wanna not forget this,

but I wanna come back to the devil,

but I wanna not forget something you said, Roger,

really clicked for me.

And I think it could be helpful for people

who are listening is like this idea of

identifying

where you battle with the flesh

by looking at kind of like where are repeated

trends

or tendencies.

And then I love what you said about,

I saw this in my dad too, because it's like,

and I've had the same kind of thoughts at times

of like,

yeah, I can see this, that my dad was that way or

whatever.

Or the other way, I could see it, my son.

That's the funny thing, the older your kids get,

I don't know if you guys have had this yet,

but like the older your kids get,

I'm like, I just figured out a growth area I have

'cause he was bugging me so bad.

He's doing what I do, you know,

but I didn't realize it until I saw it in him.

So I do think it's an interesting thought

on like the flesh side of things,

recognizing like repeated patterns and or things

that you see in the generation before you

or the one after you as a place where those

battles start.

'Cause I would see similar things

like whether it be a proneness

to like get discouraged too quickly

or just to feel like sometimes for me,

just to get like down too fast.

You know, you're just like, I don't know.

I don't know how to say it better than down.

And I go, hold on, hold on.

You know, and it's funny 'cause when you see it

in other people, I feel like it's easier to go,

yo, you know, check your perspective.

Like you're like going from here to like,

you're in the tank like way too fast.

Life is good.

That was just a thing.

But when it's you, it feels different.

So I think that's really good.

And now I have no idea where we're going.

The devil, I know I just said that

that was sticking in my brain so much.

I just thought for people listening,

I thought that was such a good,

oh, I know what I was gonna say about the devil.

So, you know, with like C.S. Lewis,

back to C.S. Lewis, he used to say this idea,

and people love quoting this line or paraphrasing

it,

but like on the one hand, not like,

not looking for a devil around every bush kind of

thing.

And on the other hand,

not doing what our culture tends to do a little

bit more,

which is like basically denying the devil

or denying the supernatural.

But I heard Joby Martin say this,

and it was funny 'cause he's like,

"I used to tell people,

don't be looking for a devil behind every bush."

And he's like, "Now, part of me,

I used to say,

'Hey, don't think the devil is behind every bush.'

And he's like, "Now I wanna tell people

there may be two behind every bush."

And I think what he was getting at

is this perspective that he's had

about maybe spiritual warfare, the demonic, all

this,

is actually like not just present, but far more

present.

I don't know, what do you guys think about that?

When I read some of these verses here

about a little bit more, again, everyday,

demonic activity, we'll call it,

I'm like, "Huh, I don't know.

Maybe there's a little bit more going on

than what we appreciate."

What's you guys' take on this whole balance issue

of not behind every bush, but I don't know,

maybe there's two.

I think it's important.

I do, I think that's a great way to look at it.

I mean, the crosses in my house

aren't spinning upside down on the weekend

when I go in to preach.

But if we aren't running into some kind of

demonic oppression

every once in a while,

maybe we're walking in the devil's same direction.

You know what I mean?

Like maybe we're following in his footsteps,

and that's why we're not running into it.

So we just think, "Oh, it's totally not even real

anymore."

We don't face it, and I'm sure he would love

nothing more

than for us to believe that.

Sometimes I think it's good that we run into it

and we see it.

That means we're doing something for the kingdom.

We're in the fight, we're winning,

and he wants to stop us.

So I think there is that tension we need to live

in,

like, "Ah, maybe not behind every bush,

but there might be two there."

You know, that's a good way to put it.

- Yeah, I think for me, I think nowaday,

I'm on the same boat where I'm like,

'cause part of the thing for me was like,

I grew up in church, and I think growing up,

I think the devil was overly mentioned,

almost like it was never a sinful nature thing.

It was just always the devil.

And then even to some extreme measures of like,

"Don't watch Disney," or "Don't watch this,"

or "Don't watch that."

And you know, the devil's in all that.

- He'll open a portal to demons

and turn on the Disney channel.

- Yeah, that kind of stuff.

So for a while, I just got away from like,

let's just get away from the devil

being around us or all that.

But as now that I'm like, not so much in that

realm

and in that conversation or hearing that all the

time,

but then I'm looking around my surroundings,

I'm looking at just what's happening,

whether that's in culture or personally, I would

agree.

I'm like, it does feel that time for that.

It's not just one, it's two.

But I think it's just more on the, again,

I think the perspective of like,

we live in a spiritual realm.

We can't over-spiritualize everything,

but it does not mean that the enemy

is not looking to devour us, like scripture says.

It doesn't mean that he's not out to destroy us.

It doesn't mean that he's not waiting for the

opportunity

to come and really get us down

or attack us in whatever way.

And I think we do have to be aware of that.

I think we can't be blinded to that.

- Have you had Brian or Roger as well,

like clear, oh man, that was totally demonic

oppression.

Like maybe in your immediate life or close people,

you know, like that was so clear.

It couldn't be more clear.

That was the straight up the devil right there.

- I'm guessing Roger's gonna have better stories

than me.

(both laughing)

- I've got one thought, but lead the way.

I feel like you're gonna have better experiences.

- Yeah, he's gonna have a straight up living.

- Hey, yeah, hold on to this one.

- This one time I saw, no, I have seen some--

- Was it when you turned on the Disney channel?

- No, it wasn't.

I've seen some manifestations in my day

and people get delivered from demonic oppression.

And so I've seen that, but really I was gonna say

where I've seen like an attack in my life

has been in my marriage.

And not so much like in my marriage in a way of,

oh, the devil's trying to just get us divorced

and separated, but in a way where

if my marriage weren't to work out,

that would affect God's purpose over my life.

And so the way I've seen it is a lot of who I am

really is found in the strength of who God paired

me with.

And so because of the way I lead, the way I lead

my family,

a lot of that has to do with the wife that God

gave me.

And I think that when I see that,

hey, he's attacking my marriage,

it's not so much of seeing it in the lens of like,

if it's that person's fault or it's my fault,

it's more of like, if he breaks this,

I don't know what's gonna happen with the purpose

that God put me in this earth to do

because I need that other person in my life

to be able to do this.

And so that's where I see he's attacking me in

this way

'cause he's trying to destroy my purpose.

- Wow.

Yeah, that's good.

That's really good.

And I think that for me, I don't know if I would

say,

when you think of some of the big manifestation

moments,

I would say I've heard more about them than seen

them

in close proximity of ministry.

I would say that, number one, I'd say for any

believer,

like they don't scare me.

At the end of the day, I really believe Jesus

defeated

the devil and as crazy as stories can be,

even on the secondhand nature side of things,

I'm like, you know what?

Jesus won.

None of this evil stuff is anything compared to

him.

But I remember we had some friends that adopted a

child

and she would like, one particular time,

and there were multiple times where it was like,

she was another person, but it was full on,

she was talking with another voice and saying

crazy things

and physically just like acting out,

she had to be restrained.

And they said, and I'll never forget them telling

us

the story, but like they laid hands on her

and prayed in the name of Jesus and cast out

if anything demonic and all of a sudden,

she just was peaceful.

And I've not had a need to go into that mode,

although I know others in our church who have.

But I think that to me, when I think personally

of those times where you're like, man,

this just feels like the devil.

I think I've had, there's been a couple of times

where I've had dreams that I'm like, this just,

I mean, I think a lot of people have bad dreams,

but just like, this is next level.

And I would honestly say I've had dreams

that are on the flip side too,

ones that I feel like this was from God.

Something, again, it just, I don't know how to

describe it

other than something felt qualitatively different

about dreams that just, I think the Lord just

gave me

a vision through this.

But then, yeah, I've had ones that I'm like,

this is a level of darkness that,

I don't know, sometimes I have a bad dream

and I feel bad afterwards, like I'm Lord,

even though I didn't choose to have that bad

dream,

I just pray the blood.

Other times I'm like, that had nothing to do with

me.

That's just straight, that was straight devil.

So I've had those moments.

I think, now this is back to the flesh thing.

I think that there are times where I feel like,

okay, I can tell my emotions are,

maybe it's discouragement or fear or something

like that.

It starts out like I would call it

a moderate flesh version.

And then all of a sudden, I am just like,

it's like suffocating levels of whatever that

feeling is,

discouragement, fear.

- The intensity cranks up.

- Yeah.

And now I'm more like, okay,

this just feels like it's coming from another

place.

This isn't just routine flesh sort of propensities.

This feels like it's, yeah.

So those are the things that come to my mind

when it comes to really battling the devil,

in more of a, in less of the everyday kind of way.

I don't know, what comes to mind for you, Jordan?

- Yeah, I mean, I think of the passage in Jude,

I don't know which angel it is,

but he's talking with the devil

and he basically just says, "The Lord rebuke you."

Leaves it at that.

And then we see in the scriptures, Jesus,

when he's dealing with the demonic,

he's not having this conversation.

It's one way.

- Yeah.

- And he's cast these things out.

And crazy story, I was a freshman in Bible

college

at the time, me and my buddy, Nick,

were going to McDonald's,

just late night McDonald's run, that's what we

did.

And one of my friends texted me, said, "Hey, you

home?"

And I was like, "Yeah, I'm about to be."

He says, "Okay, cool, I'm already at your

apartment."

I said, "All right, well, what's going on, man?"

And he was just in this really weird demeanor.

And I could tell something was up with him.

And he told me, "Hey, I've been like,

going into some heavy drugs.

I've been seeing shadows and hearing voices.

And I know you believe in Jesus.

And you've talked a little bit about that."

He's like, "I need help, man."

And I'm like, "Okay, well, what do you need help

with?"

And then he starts telling me,

and then he collapses on the ground.

Mind you, this is like 11 o'clock at night,

right outside my apartment.

And I look over at my buddy, Nick,

and I'm like, "What's going on here?"

And Nick's just slurping his Coca-Cola.

And I'm like, "All right, well, I don't know what

this is."

But I go up to him, and he starts breathing heavy,

freaking out, he grips my ankle.

And he's staring at me, just like he's seeing

something.

He's freaking out.

And in that moment, I was like, "Nick, we need to

pray."

And I didn't know what to do.

You don't get trained for things like this.

I'm like, "All right, we're in the deep end."

So I just, I said, I put my hands down, I pray

for him.

And I feel like, I'm like,

"Dude, you need to cry out to Jesus.

"You need to call out to Jesus."

And he's like, "I can't."

He's freaking out, he's gritting his teeth.

I said, "You need to call out to Jesus."

And I remember he cries out, "Jesus, would you

save me?"

And he just suddenly, his total demeanor just

goes,

and changes, and he starts weeping.

And I just, I remember the scripture in Mark

where it says like, Jesus takes a strong man out

of the house

and then many more will come, like seven more

will come.

And I remember going to him, I was like,

"Dude, would you pray that the Holy Spirit would

fill you?

"'Cause this isn't gonna stop.

"The enemy wants to take you out."

And I remember he prays and he's like,

he just starts having this moment where he's

saying,

"God loves me, he's here, he loves me, he forgives

me."

And I'm like, "Yeah, he does."

And mind you, Nick's over here still slurping his

Coke.

And I'm like, "Dude, great help you were in this

moment."

And we take him inside and we start talking with

him.

And then he goes to church Sunday with us and

everything.

But it was so crazy because I'd heard about

stories

like this and then boom, you're hit with it.

And you're like, "What do you do in this moment?"

And it was all God that took care of it.

Like I'm like, I didn't say no special magic

words, dude.

There was no fight here.

It was he prayed to Jesus, done.

He prayed to be filled, the Holy Spirit, filled.

And boom, it was done.

And like, it was so cool to see the power of God

in that moment from 11 p.m. McDonald's.

- Yeah, there you go.

That's really, really cool.

Well, and I think that when it comes to like,

when it comes to spiritual warfare in general,

I think it's weird 'cause on the one hand,

I wanna say the devil is, you know,

can come at us in all these different ways and

whatnot.

But I also think, and you guys push back on this.

I mean, we're all free here to push back on

whatever.

But I think that if a normal like Christian

person

who's filled with the Holy Spirit is in a real

habit

and practice of doing those core spiritual

disciplines,

I think in many cases, honestly in most cases,

that is enough to largely protect you

from any serious like, you know,

satanic attack or impact in your life.

When I think of Ephesians chapter six,

obviously this famous passage on spiritual

warfare,

I mean, you know, it's like, you know,

breastplate of-- - Righteousness.

- Righteousness and you know, the sword,

which is the word of God and the helmet of

salvation

and all these things.

It's not like all this crazy intense,

it's kind of everyday stuff.

The shield of faith, I mean, and I just, I guess,

I remember hearing a pastor talk about this

and at first I thought, oh, is that true?

And I think it is true.

He was like, yeah, if you're doing basic things,

like you are in the word of God, you are praying,

you are asking the Holy Spirit for guidance

and direction as you go out throughout your day,

largely, that should do it.

Do you guys think so or not?

What do you think about that?

That idea that basically if you're practicing

basic spiritual disciplines, you'll be largely

protected

from any serious influence of evil or the devil.

What do you think about that?

Push back if you disagree.

Well, I've silenced.

- Yeah, I think you get a strength,

but I definitely don't think it would silence his

activity.

I think it gives you a strength to be in the

fight

and to win, to know how to engage in the fight

and not just be like you're in two waves,

just getting knocked back and forth.

Those disciplines, those spiritual disciplines,

like you said, knowing the helmet of salvation.

You know, the devil's called the accuser of the

brethren

for a reason.

He wants to accuse you that you are still

condemned

in your sins.

Well, in Romans 8, 1, there's therefore now

no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

Jesus Christ saved me.

- Right.

- You know, and so I think he tries to get you

to take off that armor.

And he only has the power that we give him, in my

mind.

He has all the power that we give him

'cause he's been stripped of his power at the

cross.

So I do think those spiritual disciplines are

important.

Putting on the armor's important.

And if you're not doing it, you totally are

susceptible.

- Yeah, yeah.

- We gonna add to that?

- Yeah, I was just gonna say,

I definitely think that it is what keeps you

protected

from the attacks of the enemy.

I think that there is a reason why being in the

word of God,

being in the truth,

spending personal relationship with him through

prayer,

I think that is what equips you for when the

attacks comes.

You're not just like vulnerable to it,

but you know you've prepared yourself for the

battle again.

And just thinking of that.

But I would say that for sure,

it's not so much that he won't attack you

if you do these things,

but if he does, you're prepared for it.

- Yeah, that's a good way to say it.

As we were talking here,

I just looked up the passage in Ephesians 6.

And specifically the language is this in verse 16.

In addition to all this, take up the shield of

faith

with which you can extinguish all the flaming

arrows

of the evil one.

So it's like the arrows are coming.

It's not like Satan's like,

oh, they're reading their Bibles,

I guess I'll mess with them.

Or something like that.

The arrows are coming.

The arrows are plural there.

The arrows are flaming arrows.

So it's like, you know, which--

- It's serious.

- Yeah, it's serious.

But it's like, if you are actively walking in

faith,

I just think of all the great like battle movies

where you see the guys like at the beginning

where they do the thing where they put the shield

up

above their head and all the arrows come in.

(imitates gun firing)

You know what I'm saying?

And that's kind of what I think about as an image

when we've got the shield of faith cultivated

is like I'm walking with that big old shield they

do

and the arrows are coming in and that sound,

(imitates gun firing)

you can hear, but they're not touching me.

- It's like the Spartan 300 vibes is what I get.

- I still haven't watched it, man.

- Oh my gosh. - I need to, bro.

I know, it's terrible.

I tried to get Christina to say yes one night to

watching it

and I read her the description 'cause it's pretty,

I hear it's gruesome, right?

- It is gruesome.

- Yeah. - It's graphic.

- And she's like, I don't want to.

And it's hard to find a time when I'm around

and I could watch a movie.

I need to watch it while I'm on the treadmill or

something.

- There you go. - That would be a time.

- No, that'll pump you up.

That's a run right there. - Let's go.

- You feel like you're running a Leonidas.

Just. (both laughing)

- Yes, there's a few that she,

we saw "Warfare" the other day.

Have you guys seen that movie yet?

- Oh, go ahead. - Yeah.

Great reviews and it's a great movie,

but it's about a couple of units

that get pinned down in Iraq and they have to get

out.

And it's not like, it's actually not like a

combat proper.

They're setting up surveillance positions

in two different houses.

But then some guys are coming after them

and they get pinned down in these houses and all

this.

And it becomes this huge,

like getting them out becomes this huge deal.

But I read the reviews and it was like,

it's gonna be gruesome and it was.

(both laughing)

The boys and I are all like, after we walked out,

we're like, yeah, it's probably good mom wasn't

here.

This was pretty full color and you know.

- For whatever reason, why do we just love that,

man?

We just do it, like just give me more battle,

give me more blood.

Just feels good, man, just watching it.

- I don't know why, but--

- I don't know either, I can't tell you why.

- But see, this is back to the battle thing.

There's something, yeah, something motivated.

But yeah, so anything else come to you guys' mind

as we've been launching into this whole topic

of just the idea of built for battle

and kind of getting into this book of 1 Timothy?

I'm looking through some of my notes

to see if anything comes to mind as well.

(man mumbling)

- I think one of the things that struck me is,

I don't know if you'll have any thoughts

on this off the cuff, but something I was really

prompted

in reading this book is he talks about having

a good conscience.

I think at least once at the very beginning in

chapter one,

I think it comes up a second time.

And it led me to do a search that I've never done

before,

which is all the occasions of good conscience

and it turns out like Paul has a major emphasis

on doing things with a good conscience.

And I just, I mean, it was like verse after verse

after verse when I looked this up,

just him saying, "Oh, I've got a good conscience."

And we checked our conscience and all this.

I'm curious, do either of you have any thoughts

on why Paul would come back to this theme of

conscience

so many times?

I'll give you a couple examples

while you're thinking about this.

Second Corinthians one verse 12, he's like,

"Now this is our boast, our conscience testifies

that we've conducted ourselves in the world

and especially in our relationships with you

with integrity and godly sincerity."

Hebrews 13, "Pray for us, we are sure

that we have a clear conscience

and desire to live honorably in every way."

Acts 24 16, "I strive to always keep my

conscience clear

before God and man."

I'm giving you a little, that's like three out of

the number,

it's probably eight or 10 that I copied in here.

Yeah, any thoughts on why Paul would keep coming

back to

we gotta clear conscience over and over and again?

Totally correct me if I'm wrong in approaching

this

and how I understand conscience,

but the way I've seen it with some of the

scriptures

you're sharing is, it's like the courtroom of our

soul.

It's that center place where you're making

decisions,

where you give yourself excuses or not.

It's really that place where you filter through

the decisions and thought life you have.

It has the final verdict, that courtroom feel.

And I think of like as a boxer, somebody training,

if your conscience is feeling guilty or fearful,

you're not gonna be good in that fight.

It's gonna haunt you, you're gonna be hesitant

and you're gonna get hit and knocked out.

And so you need that good conscience

to keep your courage up.

You need that good conscience to stay in

and have a good filter through that fight.

At least that's what comes to mind

when I'm thinking about conscience, this inner.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think one of the things that I,

when I thought of even some of the passages

that you're reading, what came to mind was,

there's a lot of it before God, but before man.

And the way I see that is,

is not just like what you believe,

but how you live out your belief.

And I think, when I think of having a good

conscience

is not like, I'm not talking about perfection,

but I am talking about you knowing

that you are striving to be more like Christ.

That yeah, you might slip up, you might make a

mistake,

but you have your conscience free of like,

knowing and understanding, I'm striving to be

like Christ.

Versus when you know the Holy Spirit is like,

hey, maybe you shouldn't do that.

Maybe you shouldn't be around those people.

Maybe you shouldn't act that way.

And yet you still choose to do it.

And then you wanna get in front of people and say,

all the right holy things, but you know, within

yourself,

you're like, man, I'm telling this person not to

do this,

but I'm also doing this.

Or I'm trying to counsel someone in the right way

when I know I'm not living this out.

And I think there is something about that,

that just puts you in a place where you're like,

ah, that feels icky, that doesn't feel good.

But when you're like, man, I've been striving

to really go after who Christ is in my life

and everything that I do,

there is something freeing about stepping into

that

and saying, I'm free of conscience.

Not just that, but even when attacks come,

right, that's personal, right, that's the enemy,

you know I'm in good conscience.

Like I know they can say this about me,

but that's not who I am.

I know that I haven't lived that way.

And that's to me, it just,

is there something freeing about that?

There's something just being confident about,

man, no matter what people might say or do

or think of me, I know where I'm at and where I

stand.

I think there's just something freeing about that

that's beautiful, yeah.

- That's good, the phrase that comes to my mind

as you say all that, I totally agree,

I think is a good conscience produces good

confidence.

- That's great.

- When you know in your soul all the things you

just said,

you just walk with a sense of,

I know between me and the Lord, I'm in the right

place.

And as both of you guys were talking about this,

it struck me so much of our lives following Jesus,

whether we're doing the quote unquote right thing.

And when I say right thing, I mean,

the thing that God is calling us to do in that

moment.

So much of it is not clearly like a chapter

and verse of scripture, kind of a provable thing.

It really is quite subjective.

Like in one moment, let's say,

let's say all the scripture encourages us

to encourage each other.

But you know what, in this moment,

God might be calling me to be silent,

or he might be calling me to speak up.

Now it looks very spiritual and biblical

to say the word of encouragement,

but for whatever reason, it might be,

I'm supposed to be quiet

and this person's supposed to say something.

Or I don't know, the point is like,

a lot of obedience to Christ is day by day,

moment by moment.

It's not just robotic applications of Bible

passages.

And for that reason, when it comes to discerning,

am I living for Christ, like you're saying,

it really is a matter of all of these tons

of moment by moment things throughout the day

where you're saying, yeah, am I just sensitive

to the voice of Christ right here?

That's that conscience place

that you're talking about, Jordan, inside.

Am I making a decision?

Yes, Lord.

And then out of that comes a confidence.

But it's like, I don't think really anybody

could come close to knowing for us

if we're actually following Jesus,

because it would really be easy, all things

considered,

to live a life that looks enough above reproach

that you'd be like, yeah, oh yeah, Roger,

he doesn't do anything that's oh so bad,

he does some good things, so like, hey,

he must be following Jesus.

And it's like, well, what's going on on the

inside?

'Cause we don't know what God's calling Roger to

do

when he's not doing or calling him to not do

when he is doing, and that's that conscience

place.

Yeah, that's good.

- Yeah, you can appear godly but have a seared

conscience.

- Yeah.

- And that's what I think, in Timothy,

that's what these false teachers

that he's trying to deal with, that's them.

I mean, they're getting a following,

they're getting people around them,

but their conscience, man, it's just wicked.

Their conscience, they've seared it, it's desensitized,

it's hard, and they're not listening

to the convictions of the Spirit.

And I know there are times in my life

where I've allowed that to happen to me

as a spiritual leader.

And I remember one season in particular,

I was just grumbling all the time,

just grumbling about everything I had to do.

Oh, I gotta do this, oh, now this is,

thanks, Lord, for this opportunity.

You know, and I'm like, God's given me

these beautiful, sacred, privileged moments,

and I'm grumbling about 'em.

You know, and I remember I was out in the yard

specifically

and I was grumbling, I was pulling weeds.

And I remember Jesus spoke to me in that moment,

and He just said, "Jordan, you know this is

"what I'm doing with your heart, too."

- Ah, that's good.

- You know, you just sit there, you just shut up,

you just, mm, mm, okay, Lord.

- Yeah, yeah, exactly.

- And He just hit me with it, and grumbling is

done.

Grumbling is done, you don't grumble

when you're dealing with me, okay, thank you,

Lord.

You know, and I had to deal with that,

but nobody saw that, nobody would know,

but I knew, and it was affecting me.

- Yeah, I think that's really good.

I think just in general, like when it comes

to this whole matter of conscience,

because it is such a big deal,

and I think it's a really encouraging note

to leave people on, just like what's it mean

to protect, guard, be faithful to your conscience.

Just being sensitive to so much of this plays out

in the details, and sometimes, you know, there

are big,

I mean, we can be tempted, I suppose,

to do these big things, but for me,

you get to a certain point in your walk with

Christ,

it's not gonna be like, I'm not gonna cheat on my

taxes,

okay, that's not how I roll, okay,

I'm not tempted about it, I didn't have to think.

- Lord, I really wanna, you know, it's like, no.

But it's more subtle things, and it's like

moments

that are, you know, you just get a little twitch,

and like, is this, I remember once,

Christine and I were traveling, actually,

on a church conference, and we were at this,

the place that we were staying.

It was like the rooms were fairly expensive,

I mean, not crazy, but just like,

it was, every place around there was expensive,

and I just thought, there's a little part of me

that just feels uncomfortable

with how much these rooms cost.

And I wouldn't sit here and say, honestly, it was

wrong,

it was wrong for the church to have those rooms,

you know, to get those rooms and all that, it

wasn't wrong.

But there was a little something in me that just

felt,

so what we did is, in that moment, we were like,

we're just gonna write a check to the church

for part of the cost of these rooms.

And it just felt like, you know what,

I can just know that there's just nothing in me

that feels weird, even though literally,

no one except for our business office,

does the invoices or whatever,

nobody would even know what the rooms cost.

But it's just that little thing in me.

And then, I wanna just come back again

to what we've been saying here

with this point of freedom and confidence.

I'm just like, I've got nothing to feel weird

about,

like you use that phrase, do you say icky or

something?

Yeah, it is, it's a good,

like when you're violating your conscience,

the word icky, which is a weird word for a grown

man to say,

but it's like the best word, I mean, it's right

on the point

you just feel inside, icky.

And I just think when you, and the weird thing is

like,

you can rationalize,

this is not something to feel icky about, it's no

big deal.

You know, why am I feeling this way?

This is nothing.

But I just think, man, if you're feeling it,

you gotta address it.

And it's worth addressing, 'cause then again,

a good conscience leads to good confidence.

And that's worth it, even on the details.

Anything you guys wanna add

before we close up shop for the day?

Any final thoughts, encouragements, exhortations?

I'm asking two preachers, everybody, so strap in.

Careful, we got another two hours.

(laughing)

- Y'all grateful for it, B, thanks so much

for letting us be on this.

And yeah, it's been an honor.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you so much.

It's good to share this moment with the both of

you.

And yeah, I just think that the reminder of like,

man, we are in a fight and we gotta keep fighting

that good fight, good fight of faith,

and knowing that, yes, we have the victory in

Christ,

but there's day-to-day stuff that we gotta deal

with

and we gotta handle.

So we gotta take care of business.

- Gotta take care of business, that's right.

- And being here with you guys,

back to the point Jordan was making

about the importance of community,

we gotta take care of business

and we gotta take care of business together.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- And there is a part of it that like,

each of us has our own agency, has to own our own

fight.

And definitely, if you've been in a big time

personal battle

like you really do feel like I'm the only one

that can carry this weight.

But man, you guys have been there for me

when I've had to fight some hard things

and I hope I've been there for you

in some different times where it's like praying

and rooting for you.

And it still doesn't mean I can't get in the

battle

literally and take that fight from you

or even be straight up in your ring.

It's like you in the ring.

But what we've been over the years, I think for

each other

has been that team around that's able to say,

let's take care of business, but let's do it

together.

And that's how we're all still standing here

after a whole bunch of years of ministry

and loving Jesus, loving our people and loving

each other,

which is what we wanna be about.

So thanks for being on you guys.

I feel like it's such a privilege to serve Jesus

with you.

And I'm so excited about what God continues to do

in each of your ministries.

And it's amazing to be able to share this

conversation today

and I know it's gonna encourage our listeners.

So thanks for being on.

Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation

with Pastor Roger, Pastor Jordan and myself.

And listen, if this was an encouragement to you,

could I just ask you to rate and review the show?

That really is so, so helpful for me to advance.

This has been a production of Engedi Church.

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