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Transcript for Protecting babies from the effects of domestic abuse

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PRODUCER: Listener note: this podcast features discussion

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PRODUCER: of domestic abuse.

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PRODUCER: Whilst listening, please be mindful of your own

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PRODUCER: wellbeing and prioritise taking a break if you

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PRODUCER: need to.

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INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast where

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INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child

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INTRO: protection from inside and outside of the

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INTRO: organisation.

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INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and

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INTRO: share good practise on how we can all work

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INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young

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INTRO: people safe.

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PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.

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PRODUCER: New research from domestic abuse charity For

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PRODUCER: Baby's Sake has revealed that each year, almost

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PRODUCER: 50,000 babies are referred to Children's

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PRODUCER: Social Care in England with domestic abuse as a

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PRODUCER: factor. In this episode of the podcast,

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PRODUCER: recorded in March 2025, the

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PRODUCER: NSPCC's Development and Quality Manager,

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PRODUCER: Paddi Vint, will be talking with For Baby's

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PRODUCER: Sake CEO, Lauren Seager-Smith, about this

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PRODUCER: research, domestic abuse in pregnancy,

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PRODUCER: and what should be done to improve support for

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PRODUCER: babies affected by domestic abuse.

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PRODUCER: I'll hand over to Paddi now to introduce

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PRODUCER: herself and begin the discussion.

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PADDI VINT: My name is Paddi Vint.

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PADDI VINT: I'm the Development and Quality Manager

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PADDI VINT: within the NSPCC Helpline and I oversee

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PADDI VINT: a team of domestic abuse practice advisors.

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PADDI VINT: Our podcast today is looking at the theme of

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PADDI VINT: domestic abuse and the impact on

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PADDI VINT: babies and with me today is Lauren.

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PADDI VINT: Lauren, do you want to introduce yourself?

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Thanks Paddi. I'm Lauren

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Seager-Smith and I'm CEO of the For

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Baby's Sake Trust.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We give whole-family therapeutic

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: support to co-parents where there's

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: been experience of domestic abuse.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We start in pregnancy up to the

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby's second birthday.

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PADDI VINT: So the Domestic Abuse Act for England and

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PADDI VINT: Wales now recognises babies,

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PADDI VINT: children and young people as co-victims in

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PADDI VINT: their own right, which I think for many of us

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PADDI VINT: in our charities and the domestic abuse

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PADDI VINT: sector, we've always strongly believed

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PADDI VINT: in. But this groundbreaking research that For

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PADDI VINT: Baby's Sake has done is really highlighting

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PADDI VINT: the scale of those children that's been

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PADDI VINT: affected.

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PADDI VINT: What does this new research from For Baby's

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PADDI VINT: Sake show about how many babies in

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PADDI VINT: England are affected by domestic abuse?

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We really wanted to know what the

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: answer to that question was.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so, like all of us do in the

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: sector, first of all, we went to see

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what was publicly available,

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: particularly in terms of government

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: data, children in need data, the

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: sorts of things that were out there.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And it was actually very hard to

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: work out how many babies were

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: directly impacted by domestic abuse

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because they were using categories

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: like family dysfunction or it was

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: coming under

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: categories of emotional abuse or neglect.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It was really hard to work it out.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So we made the decision to do a

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: freedom of information request to

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: local areas to ask how many

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 0-2s were being referred into

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children's services with domestic

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse as a factor and then how many

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: babies were being taken into care

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with domestic abuse as a factor.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And we had a return from the

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: majority of local areas, and we can

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: come onto the kind of discrepancy in

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the data collection, which is issue

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in itself, but what it seemed to

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: suggest was that on average, around

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 50,000 babies are referred into

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children's social care every year

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with domestic abuse as a

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: contributing factor, with around

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 2,000 babies taken into care with

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuses as a contributing

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: factor. But we suspect this is

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: probably quite a significant

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: underestimate, even of the number of

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: babies that are being referred in with

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse as a factor.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But it gives us some idea, one as

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to the discrepancy between data

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recording in different areas, but

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the scale of the issue that we're

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: all dealing with.

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PADDI VINT: Interesting you say that because the NSPCC

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PADDI VINT: Helpline receives around 200 contacts

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PADDI VINT: a day from members of the public and domestic

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PADDI VINT: abuse is around the fourth highest reason

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PADDI VINT: that people contact us.

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PADDI VINT: So your figures don't surprise me, but as you

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PADDI VINT: say, potentially is the tip of the iceberg.

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PADDI VINT: Certainly from my experience,

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PADDI VINT: very often recognition that somebody's even

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PADDI VINT: in an abusive relationship can take a very

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PADDI VINT: long time to recognise and acknowledge,

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PADDI VINT: particularly given coercive control being

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PADDI VINT: played out in a relationship.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, absolutely.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And another piece of data that we

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: collected: last year we did a

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: freedom of information to police

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: forces around the numbers of 0-2s

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: present for police call-outs for

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that came back with the police

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: forces that returned to us, which I

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think were 15 police forces, said

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that babies were present in about

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 13% of call-out, which was about

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 180,000 babies a year if you work

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: it out. So a lot more babies were

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: present at police call-outs — and

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: again, that data won't have been fully

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: accurate — compared to the number

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being referred into children's

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: social care, which is a worry in and

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of itself around what's happening

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there. So I think you're absolutely

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: right, Paddi. We know one in five

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children experience domestic abuse

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: by the time they're 18 and 30%

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: begins in pregnancy.

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PADDI VINT: Absolutely. But it's brilliant to be able to

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PADDI VINT: have that information and that up to date

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PADDI VINT: research to be able to reference.

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PADDI VINT: In the research it was identified that

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PADDI VINT: children were having this children's services

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PADDI VINT: intervention and some children and babies

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PADDI VINT: were being taken into care.

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PADDI VINT: Why do you think so many babies are taken

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PADDI VINT: into care? Is it the additional

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PADDI VINT: vulnerabilities that a baby brings to a

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PADDI VINT: situation?

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, and Paddi, you'll know well

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that social care don't readily take

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: babies or any children into care.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that's important for people to

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understand — that it will have meant

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that this is a critical incident

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: here. It's because babies are, of

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: course, extremely vulnerable and we

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: know can be at high risk of

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: homicide, and particularly where

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's been experience of domestic

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse or where there is domestic

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse. So those babies are at a

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: point of real vulnerability.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But we would say that it's because

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there should have been intervention

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in those families' lives a lot

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: earlier and for a lot longer to

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: prevent that ever happening.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Sometimes we work with parents who've

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: had multiple previous children

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: removed and this is the first baby

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: they've ever been able to keep in

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: their care and so very often it's a

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: result of a failure of the system

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to support those families over a

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: longer period of time, which then

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: results in that baby having to go

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: into care.

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PADDI VINT: Now you've got research findings, what do you

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PADDI VINT: think we need to see in practice?

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Well, I think the thing that it's really

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: drawn out for us — and we know this

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because this is the reason for the

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: For Baby's Sake Trust and the work

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that we do and the work that we've developed —

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: is this significant impact of

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse in pregnancy.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I think what we would like to be

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: able to do is help to explore that

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: even more. What's happening during

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that period of time within

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: relationships that's leading to this

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: epidemic of abuse, which is

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what it is. If 30% of it begins in

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that time, we're not talking about a

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: small number of families here.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so really, really being able to

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understand what are the pressures on

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: families at that point and what does

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that look like?

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And there's lots of things that we could

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: talk around around that space. One

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of the things we're looking at at the

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: moment is how much support is there

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: for dads during that period of time?

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: What does that look like?

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We've been involved with some work

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with an NHS trust looking at

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emotional health screening for dads

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: during the perinatal period, which

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: has helped to draw out domestic

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse during that period of time and

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what's happening for dads.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But we know it's such a high-risk

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: time, but it's also an opportunity,

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because that's time when services

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: are actively engaging with women.

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PADDI VINT: And I think that sometimes can lead

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PADDI VINT: on to that sense of

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PADDI VINT: escalation, because there are services

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PADDI VINT: involved it can have a twofold [effect]: it

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PADDI VINT: can either increase the risk and increase the

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PADDI VINT: likelihood of isolation, but it also opens

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PADDI VINT: the door to the potential to have services

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PADDI VINT: in place. When you're pregnant or just after

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PADDI VINT: birth, you'd hope that there'd be an increase

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PADDI VINT: of those professional services from midwives

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PADDI VINT: and doctors and health visitors.

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PADDI VINT: How do you think support services for

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PADDI VINT: pregnant families and babies experiencing

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PADDI VINT: domestic abuse could be improved?

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PADDI VINT: That's probably a million dollar question.

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: No, it's a brilliant question and it

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LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: would be good to hear your thoughts

00:08:39,480 → 00:08:40,918

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: on that as well, Paddi. I think from

00:08:40,919 → 00:08:42,999

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: our perspective, we've got to have

00:08:43,000 → 00:08:44,679

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: eyes-on. I'm really worried.

00:08:44,680 → 00:08:46,319

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I understand why the NHS wants to

00:08:46,320 → 00:08:48,679

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: move more towards digital, but if we

00:08:48,680 → 00:08:50,219

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: haven't got health visitors going

00:08:50,220 → 00:08:52,279

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: out into the community, seeing

00:08:52,280 → 00:08:54,479

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents, seeing babies, that's the

00:08:54,480 → 00:08:57,439

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: risk. So we'd like to see investment

00:08:57,440 → 00:08:58,939

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in health visitors, support for

00:08:58,940 → 00:09:00,359

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: health visitors. We'd like to see

00:09:00,360 → 00:09:01,599

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: funding for IDVAs [Independent Domestic Violence Advocates] in

00:09:01,600 → 00:09:03,390

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hospitals, so they're out there

00:09:05,210 → 00:09:07,109

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with eyes on mums and babies,

00:09:07,110 → 00:09:08,389

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looking at what's happening with

00:09:08,390 → 00:09:10,069

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: dynamics within relationships.

00:09:10,070 → 00:09:12,329

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We've got to invest in people who

00:09:12,330 → 00:09:14,249

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: are out there supporting families.

00:09:14,250 → 00:09:15,649

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's hugely important.

00:09:15,650 → 00:09:17,069

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And then we need to see training for

00:09:17,070 → 00:09:19,349

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: midwives. We haven't got statutory

00:09:19,350 → 00:09:21,569

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: rollout of training for midwives and

00:09:21,570 → 00:09:22,789

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: health visitors.

00:09:22,790 → 00:09:24,249

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We can all do our bit as different

00:09:24,250 → 00:09:25,949

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: agencies to try and offer what we

00:09:25,950 → 00:09:27,668

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can, but we need to see that

00:09:27,669 → 00:09:29,649

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: uniformly delivered across the whole

00:09:29,650 → 00:09:31,209

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: sector so that people are properly

00:09:31,210 → 00:09:33,919

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: supported to engage with parents.

00:09:33,920 → 00:09:35,539

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And we'd like to see much more

00:09:35,540 → 00:09:37,079

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: engagement with dads in this space

00:09:37,080 → 00:09:38,080

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: as well.

00:09:39,160 → 00:09:41,169

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But Paddi, what would you say?

00:09:41,170 → 00:09:43,229

PADDI VINT: No, I think you're absolutely right.

00:09:43,230 → 00:09:46,549

PADDI VINT: Nothing can replace that face-to-face contact

00:09:46,550 → 00:09:49,229

PADDI VINT: in terms of those early identifications.

00:09:49,230 → 00:09:51,889

PADDI VINT: I know there's been some studies done looking

00:09:51,890 → 00:09:54,769

PADDI VINT: at barriers to victims making those

00:09:54,770 → 00:09:57,369

PADDI VINT: disclosures in health settings.

00:09:57,370 → 00:10:00,369

PADDI VINT: And certainly on occasions, even a partner's

00:10:00,370 → 00:10:03,189

PADDI VINT: physical presence can be a factor, or

00:10:03,190 → 00:10:05,869

PADDI VINT: somebody who is potentially acting as a

00:10:05,870 → 00:10:07,569

PADDI VINT: translator, if English is your second

00:10:07,570 → 00:10:09,889

PADDI VINT: language, and the barriers that that may

00:10:09,890 → 00:10:11,899

PADDI VINT: have. Just being able to have that

00:10:11,900 → 00:10:15,019

PADDI VINT: opportunity to speak to somebody,

00:10:15,020 → 00:10:18,279

PADDI VINT: to be asked the question, to allow you to

00:10:18,280 → 00:10:21,119

PADDI VINT: answer is really, really important.

00:10:21,120 → 00:10:23,559

PADDI VINT: Certainly I've been in some clinics where

00:10:23,560 → 00:10:26,199

PADDI VINT: women leave potential samples in the bathroom

00:10:26,200 → 00:10:28,699

PADDI VINT: with notes so that they can actually have

00:10:28,700 → 00:10:31,339

PADDI VINT: that picked up by a professional and a safe

00:10:31,340 → 00:10:34,259

PADDI VINT: space is created to be able to speak to

00:10:34,260 → 00:10:36,639

PADDI VINT: that woman themselves on their own.

00:10:36,640 → 00:10:38,919

PADDI VINT: But obviously that's something that we would

00:10:38,920 → 00:10:40,380

PADDI VINT: love to be able to see.

00:10:41,740 → 00:10:44,239

PADDI VINT: Lauren, you touched on there about the need

00:10:44,240 → 00:10:46,699

PADDI VINT: for support, in particular for men, to be

00:10:46,700 → 00:10:47,979

PADDI VINT: improved.

00:10:47,980 → 00:10:50,179

PADDI VINT: And like many forms of abuse, that early

00:10:50,180 → 00:10:53,399

PADDI VINT: recognition and intervention is key.

00:10:53,400 → 00:10:55,279

PADDI VINT: But then equally, it's really important to

00:10:55,280 → 00:10:58,239

PADDI VINT: have those services in place to address it.

00:10:58,240 → 00:11:00,839

PADDI VINT: How do you think we could better support men?

00:11:00,840 → 00:11:03,079

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So as a charity, we take a

00:11:03,080 → 00:11:05,059

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: trauma-informed approach to domestic

00:11:05,060 → 00:11:07,099

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse. We work with co-parents where

00:11:07,100 → 00:11:08,399

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's a pregnancy and experience

00:11:08,400 → 00:11:10,319

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of domestic abuse. We have over 10

00:11:10,320 → 00:11:12,719

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: years experience of working with

00:11:12,720 → 00:11:14,659

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents who use abusive behaviours,

00:11:14,660 → 00:11:16,659

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and on the whole that's the dad, but

00:11:16,660 → 00:11:18,039

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: not always.

00:11:18,040 → 00:11:19,719

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And what we've learnt through that

00:11:19,720 → 00:11:21,879

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 10 years is a real understanding of

00:11:21,880 → 00:11:23,779

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the demographics of our families as

00:11:23,780 → 00:11:25,119

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well, and what's happened within those

00:11:25,120 → 00:11:27,639

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: lives. A trauma-informed approach

00:11:27,640 → 00:11:30,319

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: means really understanding what's

00:11:30,320 → 00:11:31,719

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: brought people to this place and what

00:11:31,720 → 00:11:32,720

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: are their histories.

00:11:33,280 → 00:11:35,209

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: What we find with our parents is

00:11:35,210 → 00:11:37,199

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that— in the last cohort which we've

00:11:37,200 → 00:11:39,739

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: just looked at, in the last quarter,

00:11:39,740 → 00:11:42,479

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 70% of our parents had five or more

00:11:42,480 → 00:11:44,679

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: adverse childhood experiences.

00:11:44,680 → 00:11:46,239

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So we're talking about experience of

00:11:46,240 → 00:11:48,019

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse at hands of fathers,

00:11:48,020 → 00:11:50,179

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: but 30% was at the hands of mothers.

00:11:50,180 → 00:11:51,719

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We're talking about sexual abuse,

00:11:51,720 → 00:11:54,459

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emotional abuse, neglect, alcohol

00:11:54,460 → 00:11:56,049

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse within the home.

00:11:56,050 → 00:11:57,649

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We're very often working with very

00:11:57,650 → 00:11:59,569

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: young parents as well.

00:11:59,570 → 00:12:00,969

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Commonly, our parents are between

00:12:00,970 → 00:12:03,169

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the age of 16 to 25 as well, which

00:12:03,170 → 00:12:05,229

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: is often not understood.

00:12:05,230 → 00:12:06,569

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: In the current cohort that we're

00:12:06,570 → 00:12:08,049

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: working with, 13% were care

00:12:08,050 → 00:12:09,709

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experienced, but that can be as high

00:12:09,710 → 00:12:12,669

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: as 25% in some areas.

00:12:12,670 → 00:12:15,169

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Mental ill health: 70% of our

00:12:15,170 → 00:12:16,389

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents are struggling with mental

00:12:16,390 → 00:12:17,909

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: ill health. Very high levels of

00:12:17,910 → 00:12:19,269

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: substance misuse.

00:12:19,270 → 00:12:21,379

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Very high level of housing needs.

00:12:21,380 → 00:12:24,279

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so it's understanding what's

00:12:24,280 → 00:12:25,579

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: going on for these families.

00:12:25,580 → 00:12:28,259

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I would say with men, there's a

00:12:28,260 → 00:12:30,799

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: real lack of recognition of what

00:12:30,800 → 00:12:32,839

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: these men have experienced as boys

00:12:32,840 → 00:12:34,699

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and as children.

00:12:34,700 → 00:12:36,599

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yes, that begins in schools and it

00:12:36,600 → 00:12:38,819

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: begins with education, but it also

00:12:38,820 → 00:12:41,199

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: begins with schools recognising the

00:12:41,200 → 00:12:43,039

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: number of boys and girls that are

00:12:43,040 → 00:12:45,319

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: living with domestic abuse at home.

00:12:45,320 → 00:12:46,979

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: How much are we recognising what

00:12:46,980 → 00:12:48,679

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children are living with at home and

00:12:48,680 → 00:12:50,319

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have grown up with at home, and the

00:12:50,320 → 00:12:51,879

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: influence of what they're seeing at

00:12:51,880 → 00:12:53,839

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: home. We know the internet has a

00:12:53,840 → 00:12:56,439

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: massive influence, but your primary

00:12:56,440 → 00:12:58,579

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: influence is your parents and what

00:12:58,580 → 00:13:00,119

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you grew up with and how much are we

00:13:00,120 → 00:13:01,779

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really recognising that. So in our

00:13:01,780 → 00:13:03,599

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: work, we're really exploring that

00:13:03,600 → 00:13:05,779

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with our dads and our mums.

00:13:05,780 → 00:13:07,619

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And for our parents, having a baby

00:13:07,620 → 00:13:09,819

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: is a real motivator for change

00:13:09,820 → 00:13:11,579

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because they often say this was the

00:13:11,580 → 00:13:14,039

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: first baby in our whole generations

00:13:14,040 → 00:13:15,519

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of families to have a good

00:13:15,520 → 00:13:17,117

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: upbringing, to have a good life and

00:13:18,200 → 00:13:19,639

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to have a chance of living without

00:13:19,640 → 00:13:21,039

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the shadow of abuse.

00:13:21,040 → 00:13:23,019

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so for us, you've really got to

00:13:23,020 → 00:13:24,559

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: look at the root causes of abusive

00:13:24,560 → 00:13:26,812

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: behaviour and that takes time.

00:13:26,813 → 00:13:29,609

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: That takes deep work with families.

00:13:29,610 → 00:13:31,789

PADDI VINT: And as you say there, it's not just within

00:13:31,790 → 00:13:34,869

PADDI VINT: one. There's housing issues, substance

00:13:34,870 → 00:13:37,189

PADDI VINT: issues, school issues, and I think that's why

00:13:37,190 → 00:13:40,449

PADDI VINT: it's so important that organisations can come

00:13:40,450 → 00:13:42,722

PADDI VINT: together to be able to support; because

00:13:44,070 → 00:13:46,969

PADDI VINT: ultimately, if there is domestic abuse in a

00:13:46,970 → 00:13:49,649

PADDI VINT: relationship and that relationship doesn't

00:13:49,650 → 00:13:52,909

PADDI VINT: continue, they're still going to be fathers.

00:13:52,910 → 00:13:54,889

PADDI VINT: They're still gonna be mothers.

00:13:54,890 → 00:13:57,679

PADDI VINT: So it's so important that they have the

00:13:57,680 → 00:14:00,619

PADDI VINT: skills and the tools and the support there to

00:14:00,620 → 00:14:03,519

PADDI VINT: be able to be as best a father or a

00:14:03,520 → 00:14:04,979

PADDI VINT: mother as they can be.

00:14:04,980 → 00:14:06,459

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, that's right. And I think, you

00:14:06,460 → 00:14:08,119

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: know, the other area of our work is

00:14:08,120 → 00:14:09,919

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really supporting attachment and

00:14:09,920 → 00:14:12,039

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: attunement to the baby with both mum

00:14:12,040 → 00:14:14,319

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and dad, because that's so important

00:14:14,320 → 00:14:16,819

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: for keeping that baby safe and has

00:14:16,820 → 00:14:18,199

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: such a significant impact.

00:14:18,200 → 00:14:19,899

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So we work both within the

00:14:19,900 → 00:14:21,359

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: relationship and what's been happening

00:14:21,360 → 00:14:22,779

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there, but also around that

00:14:22,780 → 00:14:24,139

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: attachment and attunment; really

00:14:24,140 → 00:14:26,639

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looking at what does your baby need,

00:14:26,640 → 00:14:27,999

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognising that domestic abuse

00:14:28,000 → 00:14:29,559

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: impacts babies in the womb.

00:14:29,560 → 00:14:31,139

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Mum's cortisol levels are impacting

00:14:31,140 → 00:14:33,129

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that baby right from the get-go.

00:14:33,130 → 00:14:34,689

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So really helping parents to

00:14:34,690 → 00:14:36,289

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understand that. And it's really

00:14:36,290 → 00:14:38,329

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: important to say, 50% of our parents

00:14:38,330 → 00:14:39,909

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: safely separate during their time

00:14:39,910 → 00:14:41,649

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with us as well. So we're not here

00:14:41,650 → 00:14:43,889

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to keep families together at the

00:14:43,890 → 00:14:45,689

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: detriment of anyone's safety.

00:14:45,690 → 00:14:47,069

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's really important to stress that.

00:14:47,070 → 00:14:48,429

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But it touches on what you said,

00:14:48,430 → 00:14:50,829

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Paddi, that very often, even if that

00:14:50,830 → 00:14:52,529

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: couple separate, they go on to have

00:14:52,530 → 00:14:53,929

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: other relationships, they go onto

00:14:53,930 → 00:14:55,829

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have other children. And I'm sure

00:14:55,830 → 00:14:57,669

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you've seen that in your work that

00:14:57,670 → 00:15:00,009

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: we can look at multiple partners

00:15:00,010 → 00:15:02,119

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being impacted by one person.

00:15:02,120 → 00:15:03,919

PADDI VINT: Absolutely.

00:15:03,920 → 00:15:06,979

PADDI VINT: Many of the women who contact our helpline

00:15:06,980 → 00:15:10,079

PADDI VINT: will often identify that their abuse started

00:15:10,080 → 00:15:13,659

PADDI VINT: or escalated when they became pregnant.

00:15:13,660 → 00:15:16,699

PADDI VINT: As you mentioned there, you know, 30%

00:15:16,700 → 00:15:19,099

PADDI VINT: of domestic abuse starting in pregnancy, and

00:15:19,100 → 00:15:21,819

PADDI VINT: then that increasing to 40% by the time the

00:15:21,820 → 00:15:23,079

PADDI VINT: child's two [years old].

00:15:23,080 → 00:15:26,519

PADDI VINT: And sadly, we know it's a high risk time.

00:15:26,520 → 00:15:28,079

PADDI VINT: You know, I'd be interested to know why you

00:15:28,080 → 00:15:30,510

PADDI VINT: think domestic abuse is so key in

00:15:31,619 → 00:15:34,009

PADDI VINT: pregnancy. What is it about that [time],

00:15:34,010 → 00:15:35,179

PADDI VINT: that's driving that forward?

00:15:36,360 → 00:15:37,779

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Paddi, I wish we had the answer to

00:15:37,780 → 00:15:39,259

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that. I think this is an area that's

00:15:39,260 → 00:15:40,373

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really under-researched — really

00:15:41,960 → 00:15:43,259

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understanding what's going on.

00:15:43,260 → 00:15:45,139

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I read a statistic recently as well,

00:15:45,140 → 00:15:47,319

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: which is that one in five of any

00:15:47,320 → 00:15:49,079

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: couples separate by the time the

00:15:49,080 → 00:15:50,979

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby's 12 months old.

00:15:50,980 → 00:15:53,959

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So for everyone, this is

00:15:53,960 → 00:15:56,299

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: a really high risk time.

00:15:56,300 → 00:15:57,659

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Having had kids myself, I could

00:15:57,660 → 00:15:59,019

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: guess at what some of the reasons

00:15:59,020 → 00:16:01,440

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: might be. I mean hormones, right?

00:16:01,441 → 00:16:03,959

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Mass sleep deprivation in both

00:16:03,960 → 00:16:05,199

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: partners.

00:16:05,200 → 00:16:06,639

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Struggling for money.

00:16:06,640 → 00:16:08,299

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: The impact of not being in work,

00:16:08,300 → 00:16:10,339

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what that can do for families.

00:16:10,340 → 00:16:12,079

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It brings up an awful lot of stuff

00:16:12,080 → 00:16:13,639

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: about your own childhood when you

00:16:13,640 → 00:16:15,019

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have a baby.

00:16:15,020 → 00:16:17,519

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think probably something around—

00:16:17,520 → 00:16:19,119

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well certainly around mental health

00:16:19,120 → 00:16:20,699

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in both mums and dads.

00:16:20,700 → 00:16:22,679

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I think we've only just really

00:16:22,680 → 00:16:24,019

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: started to appreciate what's

00:16:24,020 → 00:16:26,079

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: happening to mums and the risk of

00:16:26,080 → 00:16:27,319

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: postnatal depression. I don't think

00:16:27,320 → 00:16:28,939

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: we've even begin to go there enough

00:16:28,940 → 00:16:30,739

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with dads yet, but we're starting to

00:16:30,740 → 00:16:32,379

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: see the research around that and

00:16:32,380 → 00:16:34,299

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: around what's happening there. And I

00:16:34,300 → 00:16:36,319

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: also think, what we've seen with

00:16:36,320 → 00:16:38,399

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: some of our fathers is an intense

00:16:38,400 → 00:16:40,999

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: fear of rejection at that point.

00:16:41,000 → 00:16:42,579

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: That goes back to those childhood

00:16:42,580 → 00:16:45,759

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experiences of abuse around suddenly

00:16:45,760 → 00:16:48,299

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: "I may lose this person" or "I'm not

00:16:48,300 → 00:16:49,340

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: number one anymore".

00:16:52,820 → 00:16:54,199

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: That's not justifying that by any means, but it can bring up some really big

00:16:54,200 → 00:16:55,200

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emotions.

00:16:55,670 → 00:16:57,609

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We know that one of the ways that

00:16:57,610 → 00:16:59,189

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you can really importantly work with

00:16:59,190 → 00:17:00,889

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: people using abusive behaviours is

00:17:00,890 → 00:17:02,789

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to support emotional regulation, so

00:17:02,790 → 00:17:04,889

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: a lot of our work is around that: is

00:17:04,890 → 00:17:06,509

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: around helping parents be able to

00:17:06,510 → 00:17:08,608

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognise their emotions and how

00:17:08,609 → 00:17:10,049

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: they're impacting others and how you

00:17:10,050 → 00:17:11,868

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: manage those emotions.

00:17:11,869 → 00:17:13,649

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But big stuff comes up for everybody

00:17:13,650 → 00:17:15,568

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: when they have a baby and they're

00:17:15,569 → 00:17:16,559

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: supporting the baby.

00:17:16,560 → 00:17:19,499

PADDI VINT: And I think as well, it also increases

00:17:19,500 → 00:17:22,439

PADDI VINT: the difficulty, potentially, for a person to

00:17:22,440 → 00:17:24,118

PADDI VINT: leave an abusive situation.

00:17:24,119 → 00:17:26,739

PADDI VINT: You know, all of a sudden, it's not just them

00:17:26,740 → 00:17:29,679

PADDI VINT: anymore. It's them and their child

00:17:29,680 → 00:17:31,879

PADDI VINT: and the ability to be able to potentially

00:17:31,880 → 00:17:34,689

PADDI VINT: leave that situation safely.

00:17:34,690 → 00:17:36,269

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, and that's certainly true in the demographics

00:17:36,270 → 00:17:38,269

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of families that we support as well.

00:17:38,270 → 00:17:40,909

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I think for all mums — and it's

00:17:40,910 → 00:17:42,449

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: predominantly mums who are experiencing

00:17:42,450 → 00:17:44,473

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse in pregnancy —

00:17:44,474 → 00:17:45,749

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's a real vulnerability at that

00:17:45,750 → 00:17:46,750

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: time as well.

00:17:48,030 → 00:17:50,209

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Like you said, it's not easy to just

00:17:50,210 → 00:17:51,929

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: get up and leave.

00:17:51,930 → 00:17:54,009

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: You're going to be financially dependent,

00:17:54,010 → 00:17:56,064

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: probably, for a period of time as

00:17:56,065 → 00:17:58,529

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well. All of those things make that

00:17:58,530 → 00:17:59,729

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really, really challenging.

00:18:00,760 → 00:18:02,399

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: There's also a huge fear that your

00:18:02,400 → 00:18:04,099

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby's going to get taken away, so

00:18:04,100 → 00:18:05,519

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that if you tell someone and you

00:18:05,520 → 00:18:07,839

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: don't feel able to leave, that your

00:18:07,840 → 00:18:09,159

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby will get taken away. And that's

00:18:09,160 → 00:18:10,739

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: something that we deal with a lot,

00:18:10,740 → 00:18:12,719

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: supporting around the shame and

00:18:12,720 → 00:18:15,299

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: stigma. We did research with 2,000

00:18:15,300 → 00:18:17,319

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents during the pandemic and what

00:18:17,320 → 00:18:18,819

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: came out of that was again,

00:18:18,820 → 00:18:20,619

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: staggeringly high numbers of parents

00:18:20,620 → 00:18:22,359

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: saying that they'd experienced

00:18:22,360 → 00:18:23,979

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse. I think it was about

00:18:23,980 → 00:18:26,379

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 40%. Many of them said that started

00:18:26,380 → 00:18:28,419

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in pregnancy, but again around 40%

00:18:28,420 → 00:18:29,859

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: said they didn't disclose it to anybody

00:18:29,860 → 00:18:31,779

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and the primary reason they didn't

00:18:31,780 → 00:18:32,780

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: disclose was shame.

00:18:35,000 → 00:18:36,828

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Gosh, how do we get around that?

00:18:36,829 → 00:18:39,129

PADDI VINT: It's a factor we see on the Helpline; that

00:18:39,130 → 00:18:40,349

PADDI VINT: victims often...

00:18:40,350 → 00:18:42,609

PADDI VINT: their fear of feeling that they're not going

00:18:42,610 → 00:18:45,669

PADDI VINT: to be believed, that they don't necessarily

00:18:45,670 → 00:18:48,929

PADDI VINT: want to speak up or they're maybe

00:18:48,930 → 00:18:50,709

PADDI VINT: saying things like well I've not been

00:18:50,710 → 00:18:53,349

PADDI VINT: physically hit so therefore all of a sudden

00:18:53,350 → 00:18:56,409

PADDI VINT: they feel it as a lesser form of abuse, which

00:18:56,410 → 00:18:59,549

PADDI VINT: it absolutely isn't. I think language

00:18:59,550 → 00:19:02,489

PADDI VINT: is so important and it's great to see

00:19:02,490 → 00:19:05,029

PADDI VINT: things like CAFCASS' domestic abuse practisc

00:19:05,030 → 00:19:08,349

PADDI VINT: policy moving away from terms like 'alleged'

00:19:08,350 → 00:19:10,909

PADDI VINT: when talking about abuse, because language

00:19:10,910 → 00:19:13,789

PADDI VINT: can be so damaging and

00:19:13,790 → 00:19:15,189

PADDI VINT: stigmatising.

00:19:15,190 → 00:19:17,189

PADDI VINT: What impact do you think the use of

00:19:17,190 → 00:19:20,109

PADDI VINT: inaccurate language when discussing domestic

00:19:20,110 → 00:19:22,549

PADDI VINT: abuse has on victims?

00:19:22,550 → 00:19:24,289

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think it's really important to

00:19:24,290 → 00:19:26,209

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: explore what's leading to the sense

00:19:26,210 → 00:19:28,609

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of shame and stigma around domestic

00:19:28,610 → 00:19:30,329

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse. In fact we were even talking

00:19:30,330 → 00:19:31,949

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in the team this week about the word

00:19:31,950 → 00:19:34,269

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 'domestic' and some of the

00:19:34,270 → 00:19:35,829

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: connotations that that has.

00:19:35,830 → 00:19:37,449

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We were saying it kind of makes you

00:19:37,450 → 00:19:39,649

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think, doesn't it, the 1950s and

00:19:39,650 → 00:19:41,893

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: aprons and people with frying pans,

00:19:41,894 → 00:19:44,389

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and even that in itself isn't

00:19:44,390 → 00:19:45,989

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: necessarily helpful. It's about

00:19:45,990 → 00:19:49,049

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being able to use language

00:19:49,050 → 00:19:50,589

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that doesn't underplay the

00:19:50,590 → 00:19:52,569

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: seriousness of what's happening, but

00:19:52,570 → 00:19:54,349

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: also means that people feel like

00:19:54,350 → 00:19:55,929

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: this is accessible and this is

00:19:55,930 → 00:19:57,169

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: something that they understand may

00:19:57,170 → 00:19:58,529

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: be happening to them.

00:19:58,530 → 00:20:00,909

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We developed the parental

00:20:00,910 → 00:20:03,289

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: relationship abuse spectrum to help

00:20:03,290 → 00:20:04,789

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: people understand the difference

00:20:04,790 → 00:20:07,309

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: between conflict and domestic abuse

00:20:07,310 → 00:20:09,249

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and how those things impact your

00:20:09,250 → 00:20:12,129

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby because people need support

00:20:12,130 → 00:20:14,269

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to see that this is a wide spectrum

00:20:14,270 → 00:20:15,270

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of behaviours.

00:20:17,130 → 00:20:18,499

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We're not just talking about things

00:20:18,500 → 00:20:19,719

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that people associate particularly

00:20:19,720 → 00:20:21,299

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with physical abuse, but we're

00:20:21,300 → 00:20:23,439

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: talking about, like you said, the

00:20:23,440 → 00:20:25,809

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: huge instances of coercive control.

00:20:25,810 → 00:20:27,749

PADDI VINT: Absolutely. And the impact, as you said

00:20:27,750 → 00:20:30,449

PADDI VINT: earlier, on the baby and the stress that that

00:20:30,450 → 00:20:30,848

PADDI VINT: can cause.

00:20:30,849 → 00:20:32,309

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, that that has.

00:20:32,310 → 00:20:34,929

PADDI VINT: Given the prevalence of domestic abuse, the

00:20:34,930 → 00:20:37,469

PADDI VINT: likelihood is that professionals will be

00:20:37,470 → 00:20:40,549

PADDI VINT: coming across potential victims of abuse on

00:20:40,550 → 00:20:42,349

PADDI VINT: a daily basis.

00:20:42,350 → 00:20:44,409

PADDI VINT: What do you think professionals need to know

00:20:44,410 → 00:20:47,309

PADDI VINT: about domestic abuse and how to support

00:20:47,310 → 00:20:50,060

PADDI VINT: pregnant families and babies affected by it?

00:20:51,099 → 00:20:52,419

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Everybody should do training in domestic

00:20:52,420 → 00:20:54,159

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse to understand all the

00:20:54,160 → 00:20:55,479

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different things that we're talking about,

00:20:55,480 → 00:20:56,879

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the different ways domestic abuse

00:20:56,880 → 00:20:59,439

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can manifest, the signs and symptoms

00:20:59,440 → 00:21:01,159

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to look out for when you're working

00:21:01,160 → 00:21:02,999

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with people and where you can

00:21:03,000 → 00:21:04,859

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: signpost to support and all of that.

00:21:04,860 → 00:21:06,379

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So that's really important.

00:21:06,380 → 00:21:08,419

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But I also think it's important to

00:21:08,420 → 00:21:10,599

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: be really aware of the heightened

00:21:10,600 → 00:21:13,479

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: risk within pregnancy and to really

00:21:13,480 → 00:21:15,949

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think about how you within your

00:21:15,950 → 00:21:18,229

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: services can create much more

00:21:18,230 → 00:21:20,569

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: accessibility and opportunities for

00:21:20,570 → 00:21:22,629

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: families to be able to open up to

00:21:22,630 → 00:21:24,469

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you and to share concerns with you

00:21:24,470 → 00:21:25,889

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and think about what that might look

00:21:25,890 → 00:21:28,359

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: like. Being supported to open up

00:21:28,360 → 00:21:30,049

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: those conversations as well and to

00:21:30,050 → 00:21:31,989

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hold those conversations.

00:21:31,990 → 00:21:33,728

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Again, we've got on the website —

00:21:33,729 → 00:21:35,467

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and I'm sure NSPCC has similar —

00:21:35,468 → 00:21:36,769

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: resources around domestic abuse

00:21:36,770 → 00:21:39,649

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: handbooks and guides and FAQs and

00:21:39,650 → 00:21:40,989

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different organisations where you

00:21:40,990 → 00:21:43,169

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can signpost to and support.

00:21:43,170 → 00:21:44,469

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think it's just really important

00:21:44,470 → 00:21:46,229

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: as workplaces that we really equip

00:21:46,230 → 00:21:47,789

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: ourselves with domestic abuse

00:21:47,790 → 00:21:49,689

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: policies for all our employers, so

00:21:49,690 → 00:21:51,369

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that all of us get a lot more

00:21:51,370 → 00:21:53,009

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: confident in talking about this,

00:21:53,010 → 00:21:54,289

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognising this, because that will

00:21:54,290 → 00:21:56,069

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: help to remove that shame and

00:21:56,070 → 00:21:58,789

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: stigma. But we also know that — and

00:21:58,790 → 00:22:00,589

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: this came from Safe Lives — that a

00:22:00,590 → 00:22:02,789

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: high percentage of families also

00:22:02,790 → 00:22:04,589

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: seek support for the person using

00:22:04,590 → 00:22:06,129

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abusive behaviours, and it's very

00:22:06,130 → 00:22:07,889

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hard to get that support.

00:22:07,890 → 00:22:09,789

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that's a real challenge.

00:22:09,790 → 00:22:11,089

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's a real challenge because where

00:22:11,090 → 00:22:12,341

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: do you turn?

00:22:12,342 → 00:22:13,919

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: You know, if you genuinely want to

00:22:13,920 → 00:22:15,539

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: change, where do you get that help?

00:22:15,540 → 00:22:16,819

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that's tough out there at the

00:22:16,820 → 00:22:17,439

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: moment.

00:22:17,440 → 00:22:20,479

PADDI VINT: Absolutely. There definitely seems to be

00:22:20,480 → 00:22:23,999

PADDI VINT: a lack of direct services available

00:22:24,000 → 00:22:27,279

PADDI VINT: to be able to put those supports in place.

00:22:27,280 → 00:22:29,219

PADDI VINT: Certainly, I think there's a lot, as you

00:22:29,220 → 00:22:31,619

PADDI VINT: said, about being comfortable with the

00:22:31,620 → 00:22:34,739

PADDI VINT: uncomfortable; to be able to ask the

00:22:34,740 → 00:22:37,979

PADDI VINT: question. Because unless we ask the question,

00:22:37,980 → 00:22:40,179

PADDI VINT: we're not going to be able to get a response

00:22:40,180 → 00:22:43,539

PADDI VINT: to be able to then put in an understanding

00:22:43,540 → 00:22:46,339

PADDI VINT: of specialist services or safety planning

00:22:46,340 → 00:22:49,129

PADDI VINT: that can be offered, or referral pathways

00:22:49,130 → 00:22:52,369

PADDI VINT: into other organisations.

00:22:52,370 → 00:22:55,909

PADDI VINT: So creating that really safe,

00:22:55,910 → 00:22:59,289

PADDI VINT: non-judgmental environment for me

00:22:59,290 → 00:23:02,149

PADDI VINT: is key to be allowing us to start asking

00:23:02,150 → 00:23:04,069

PADDI VINT: those questions.

00:23:04,070 → 00:23:07,109

PADDI VINT: And I think having a real understanding

00:23:07,110 → 00:23:09,929

PADDI VINT: of the barriers to reporting abuse also

00:23:09,930 → 00:23:12,979

PADDI VINT: supports us in addressing the issues as well.

00:23:12,980 → 00:23:14,839

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think so, and I think, you

00:23:14,840 → 00:23:16,499

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: touching on the non-judgmental

00:23:16,500 → 00:23:19,678

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: approach is so important;

00:23:19,679 → 00:23:21,279

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because from a trauma-informed

00:23:21,280 → 00:23:23,039

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: perspective as well, it's very much

00:23:23,040 → 00:23:24,779

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: about how do you empower people

00:23:24,780 → 00:23:26,419

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: within their own lives and give them

00:23:26,420 → 00:23:28,459

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that sense of agency as well?

00:23:28,460 → 00:23:30,219

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Because I think people are really

00:23:30,220 → 00:23:32,279

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: scared of losing control, so that if

00:23:32,280 → 00:23:33,619

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I report this, suddenly everything's

00:23:33,620 → 00:23:34,859

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: going to happen and it's all going to

00:23:34,860 → 00:23:36,809

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: be out of my control. It's helping

00:23:36,810 → 00:23:38,189

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: people to understand, right, let's

00:23:38,190 → 00:23:39,729

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: work together to put a safety plan

00:23:39,730 → 00:23:41,009

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in place. Let's really think about

00:23:41,010 → 00:23:42,869

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what you need at this time to keep

00:23:42,870 → 00:23:44,369

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you and your baby safe. And it's

00:23:44,370 → 00:23:46,049

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being able to do that and support

00:23:46,050 → 00:23:47,329

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that, because that's what people are

00:23:47,330 → 00:23:48,609

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: scared of. They're scared that

00:23:48,610 → 00:23:50,729

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: they're not going to have control.

00:23:50,730 → 00:23:52,289

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And, you know, to some degree, if

00:23:52,290 → 00:23:54,829

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's a baby or a child at risk,

00:23:54,830 → 00:23:56,629

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: then agencies need to take action to

00:23:56,630 → 00:23:58,329

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: protect that baby and that child and

00:23:58,330 → 00:23:59,709

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to protect that parent. But it's

00:23:59,710 → 00:24:01,049

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: helping people understand the

00:24:01,050 → 00:24:03,109

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: reasons for that and what that means

00:24:03,110 → 00:24:05,119

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and how they'll do that, but that

00:24:05,120 → 00:24:06,679

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: help is there for them and people

00:24:06,680 → 00:24:09,019

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: aren't here to separate mothers from

00:24:09,020 → 00:24:10,020

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: their babies.

00:24:11,009 → 00:24:12,869

PADDI VINT: No, thankfully — that thought process is so

00:24:12,870 → 00:24:15,289

PADDI VINT: clear in people's mind and that fear is so

00:24:15,290 → 00:24:18,169

PADDI VINT: real, but actually agencies are a long

00:24:18,170 → 00:24:20,489

PADDI VINT: way from doing that.

00:24:20,490 → 00:24:23,089

PADDI VINT: But I think that also stops, to a certain

00:24:23,090 → 00:24:26,029

PADDI VINT: level as well, professionals potentially

00:24:26,030 → 00:24:28,649

PADDI VINT: raising a concern because they're worried

00:24:28,650 → 00:24:30,449

PADDI VINT: that it might not be right.

00:24:30,450 → 00:24:32,209

PADDI VINT: So they're not really sure.

00:24:32,210 → 00:24:34,169

PADDI VINT: Could this be, is it not?

00:24:34,170 → 00:24:35,609

PADDI VINT: Should I have concerns here?

00:24:35,610 → 00:24:37,329

PADDI VINT: What are the signs? What are the symptoms?

00:24:37,330 → 00:24:38,649

PADDI VINT: Should I be worried?

00:24:38,650 → 00:24:40,149

PADDI VINT: And I think sometimes, you know, on the

00:24:40,150 → 00:24:43,189

PADDI VINT: Helpline as well, we are more than

00:24:43,190 → 00:24:46,089

PADDI VINT: happy to talk to a professional or a member

00:24:46,090 → 00:24:49,049

PADDI VINT: of the public who has those inklings

00:24:49,050 → 00:24:52,089

PADDI VINT: or concerns, to give them an opportunity

00:24:52,090 → 00:24:54,789

PADDI VINT: to talk through and support them to be an

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PADDI VINT: ally to that family while they're going

00:24:57,490 → 00:24:58,749

PADDI VINT: through this stage.

00:24:58,750 → 00:25:00,549

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah and I think something else that

00:25:00,550 → 00:25:02,349

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: definitely comes up in our work as

00:25:02,350 → 00:25:04,109

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well, and I know has come up in

00:25:04,110 → 00:25:05,769

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: previous contact we've had with

00:25:05,770 → 00:25:07,109

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Pause — and those listeners that

00:25:07,110 → 00:25:08,409

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: don't know Pause, they give support

00:25:08,410 → 00:25:10,089

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to mothers who've had babies removed

00:25:10,090 → 00:25:12,089

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: — is for a number of the parents

00:25:12,090 → 00:25:13,889

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that we work with, they have had

00:25:13,890 → 00:25:16,149

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: this intergenerational cycles of

00:25:16,150 → 00:25:18,249

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse within their families. Many of

00:25:18,250 → 00:25:19,529

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: them have grown up with domestic

00:25:19,530 → 00:25:21,509

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse and to some degree that abuse

00:25:21,510 → 00:25:23,069

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: has been quite normalised in their

00:25:23,070 → 00:25:24,469

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: lives. They don't necessarily

00:25:24,470 → 00:25:26,409

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognise that what they're in is

00:25:26,410 → 00:25:27,929

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: anything different than what

00:25:27,930 → 00:25:29,769

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: everyone else is living and

00:25:29,770 → 00:25:31,149

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experiencing.

00:25:31,150 → 00:25:32,809

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so it's being able to recognise

00:25:32,810 → 00:25:34,829

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that as well, which means when

00:25:34,830 → 00:25:36,569

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you've got resources like family

00:25:36,570 → 00:25:38,409

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hubs or whatever it is we have out

00:25:38,410 → 00:25:40,789

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there, we've got to get a lot better

00:25:40,790 → 00:25:42,909

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: at being really upfront about this.

00:25:42,910 → 00:25:44,169

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We shouldn't only be talking about

00:25:44,170 → 00:25:45,689

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse once there's a crisis

00:25:45,690 → 00:25:47,979

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: or once we think something's happened.

00:25:47,980 → 00:25:49,399

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: These conversations should be

00:25:49,400 → 00:25:51,099

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: mainstreamed. Perhaps it's not

00:25:51,100 → 00:25:52,359

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: always using the language of

00:25:52,360 → 00:25:54,279

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse either. Maybe using

00:25:54,280 → 00:25:55,959

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different language which feels less

00:25:55,960 → 00:25:58,579

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: scary, or helps people to really

00:25:58,580 → 00:26:00,819

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think about what's safe for a family

00:26:00,820 → 00:26:02,059

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and safe within a family

00:26:02,060 → 00:26:04,379

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: environment, can help to normalise

00:26:04,380 → 00:26:05,919

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: these discussions.

00:26:05,920 → 00:26:07,739

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And then you can work with families

00:26:07,740 → 00:26:10,019

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to understand what is and isn't

00:26:10,020 → 00:26:11,979

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: okay; because we might think that

00:26:11,980 → 00:26:13,359

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that's obvious, but it's always

00:26:13,360 → 00:26:14,219

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: obvious.

00:26:14,220 → 00:26:16,719

PADDI VINT: Absolutely, certainly contacts that we've

00:26:16,720 → 00:26:19,499

PADDI VINT: received... as you say, growing up in an

00:26:19,500 → 00:26:22,019

PADDI VINT: environment where this has always been the

00:26:22,020 → 00:26:24,979

PADDI VINT: norm, there becomes a level of, well, that's

00:26:24,980 → 00:26:26,039

PADDI VINT: just what happens.

00:26:27,040 → 00:26:29,819

PADDI VINT: And particularly within coercive control,

00:26:29,820 → 00:26:32,279

PADDI VINT: where there's maybe been some threats and

00:26:32,280 → 00:26:34,939

PADDI VINT: intimidation and emotional abuse, it's not

00:26:34,940 → 00:26:37,899

PADDI VINT: always as easily recognised for

00:26:37,900 → 00:26:40,299

PADDI VINT: people [that] that's not an acceptable

00:26:40,300 → 00:26:41,539

PADDI VINT: relationship.

00:26:41,540 → 00:26:44,299

PADDI VINT: Very often we have to almost strip it back

00:26:44,300 → 00:26:46,676

PADDI VINT: and look at "what is a healthy relationship"

00:26:46,677 → 00:26:49,579

PADDI VINT: rather than constantly looking at

00:26:49,580 → 00:26:51,239

PADDI VINT: "what's an unhealthy relationship".

00:26:51,240 → 00:26:52,959

PADDI VINT: Because I think really only when you look at

00:26:52,960 → 00:26:55,499

PADDI VINT: what a healthy relationships is, does it

00:26:55,500 → 00:26:58,639

PADDI VINT: almost help you identify areas that

00:26:58,640 → 00:27:01,419

PADDI VINT: aren't healthy or that are potentially

00:27:01,420 → 00:27:02,429

PADDI VINT: abusive.

00:27:02,430 → 00:27:03,878

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Oh, I love that Paddi, I love that

00:27:03,879 → 00:27:06,089

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emphasis on healthy relationships,

00:27:06,090 → 00:27:07,569

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because it's starting with a

00:27:07,570 → 00:27:09,889

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: positive rather than a negative.

00:27:09,890 → 00:27:11,389

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's about mainstreaming

00:27:11,390 → 00:27:12,729

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: conversations about what healthy

00:27:12,730 → 00:27:14,449

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looks like all the time.

00:27:14,450 → 00:27:15,829

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think that goes back to what we

00:27:15,830 → 00:27:17,269

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: were saying about schools, about

00:27:17,270 → 00:27:18,859

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: mainstreaming this in schools.

00:27:18,860 → 00:27:20,599

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's not just about educating, it's

00:27:20,600 → 00:27:22,179

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: about living healthy relationships

00:27:22,180 → 00:27:23,519

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with kids. It's about modelling

00:27:23,520 → 00:27:25,539

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: healthy relationships so that kids

00:27:25,540 → 00:27:27,039

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can see in the way you treat them,

00:27:27,040 → 00:27:28,619

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the way you make them feel, feels

00:27:28,620 → 00:27:30,279

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different to something they might be

00:27:30,280 → 00:27:31,579

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experiencing at home, which then

00:27:31,580 → 00:27:33,679

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: creates safety and trust, which then

00:27:33,680 → 00:27:34,919

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: means those children are able to

00:27:34,920 → 00:27:37,239

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: open up to you. So I think all of us

00:27:37,240 → 00:27:38,799

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have got a responsibility to be able

00:27:38,800 → 00:27:40,839

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to model and teach and share what

00:27:40,840 → 00:27:42,479

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: healthy relationships look like and

00:27:42,480 → 00:27:44,639

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: feel like. And I think that could go

00:27:44,640 → 00:27:46,479

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: some way to helping to reduce that

00:27:46,480 → 00:27:48,359

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: shame and stigma to then what it

00:27:48,360 → 00:27:49,939

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looks like to talk about when things don't

00:27:49,940 → 00:27:52,039

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: feel right or don't feel healthy.

00:27:52,040 → 00:27:54,279

PADDI VINT: The key thing for people is to know that

00:27:54,280 → 00:27:57,019

PADDI VINT: there's help and support available.

00:27:57,020 → 00:27:59,319

PADDI VINT: That's what we want to be able to share with

00:27:59,320 → 00:28:01,859

PADDI VINT: people; that they can pick up the phone, they

00:28:01,860 → 00:28:04,699

PADDI VINT: can reach out to particularly the NSPCC

00:28:04,700 → 00:28:07,581

PADDI VINT: Helpline. They can contact us on 0808 800

00:28:07,582 → 00:28:10,479

PADDI VINT: 5000, or they can drop

00:28:10,480 → 00:28:12,070

PADDI VINT: us an email at help@nspcc.org.uk,

00:28:14,620 → 00:28:17,859

PADDI VINT: where we'd be more than happy to

00:28:17,860 → 00:28:21,509

PADDI VINT: support mums, dads, professionals with

00:28:21,510 → 00:28:24,529

PADDI VINT: any of their concerns in regards to

00:28:24,530 → 00:28:27,889

PADDI VINT: this subject or any child protection subject.

00:28:27,890 → 00:28:29,449

PADDI VINT: Lauren, would you be happy to share for

00:28:29,450 → 00:28:31,869

PADDI VINT: listeners how they can reach out to For

00:28:31,870 → 00:28:32,589

PADDI VINT: Baby's Sake?

00:28:32,590 → 00:28:36,649

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, if you visit forbabysaketrust.org.uk,

00:28:36,650 → 00:28:38,709

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: we're available in a number of

00:28:38,710 → 00:28:40,489

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different areas in terms of support

00:28:40,490 → 00:28:42,389

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and there's also lots of resources

00:28:42,390 → 00:28:44,689

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: on our website and signposting for

00:28:44,690 → 00:28:45,359

LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: help.

00:28:45,360 → 00:28:48,019

PADDI VINT: Thank you so much, Lauren, for joining me

00:28:48,020 → 00:28:51,219

PADDI VINT: today and talking about this subject.

00:28:51,220 → 00:28:53,339

PADDI VINT: And thank you everybody for listening.

00:28:53,340 → 00:28:54,340

PADDI VINT: All the best.

00:28:58,020 → 00:29:00,379

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC learning

00:29:00,380 → 00:29:01,779

OUTRO: Podcast.

00:29:01,780 → 00:29:04,279

OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content

00:29:04,280 → 00:29:07,039

OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and

00:29:07,040 → 00:29:09,399

OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing.

00:29:09,400 → 00:29:11,419

OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current

00:29:11,420 → 00:29:14,299

OUTRO: safeguarding and child-protection training,

00:29:14,300 → 00:29:17,259

OUTRO: information, or resources, please visit our

00:29:17,260 → 00:29:19,339

OUTRO: website for professionals at

00:29:19,340 → 00:29:21,791

OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.

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