PRODUCER: Listener note: this podcast features discussion
PRODUCER: of domestic abuse.
PRODUCER: Whilst listening, please be mindful of your own
PRODUCER: wellbeing and prioritise taking a break if you
PRODUCER: need to.
INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast where
INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child
INTRO: protection from inside and outside of the
INTRO: organisation.
INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and
INTRO: share good practise on how we can all work
INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young
INTRO: people safe.
PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.
PRODUCER: New research from domestic abuse charity For
PRODUCER: Baby's Sake has revealed that each year, almost
PRODUCER: 50,000 babies are referred to Children's
PRODUCER: Social Care in England with domestic abuse as a
PRODUCER: factor. In this episode of the podcast,
PRODUCER: recorded in March 2025, the
PRODUCER: NSPCC's Development and Quality Manager,
PRODUCER: Paddi Vint, will be talking with For Baby's
PRODUCER: Sake CEO, Lauren Seager-Smith, about this
PRODUCER: research, domestic abuse in pregnancy,
PRODUCER: and what should be done to improve support for
PRODUCER: babies affected by domestic abuse.
PRODUCER: I'll hand over to Paddi now to introduce
PRODUCER: herself and begin the discussion.
PADDI VINT: My name is Paddi Vint.
PADDI VINT: I'm the Development and Quality Manager
PADDI VINT: within the NSPCC Helpline and I oversee
PADDI VINT: a team of domestic abuse practice advisors.
PADDI VINT: Our podcast today is looking at the theme of
PADDI VINT: domestic abuse and the impact on
PADDI VINT: babies and with me today is Lauren.
PADDI VINT: Lauren, do you want to introduce yourself?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Thanks Paddi. I'm Lauren
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Seager-Smith and I'm CEO of the For
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Baby's Sake Trust.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We give whole-family therapeutic
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: support to co-parents where there's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: been experience of domestic abuse.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We start in pregnancy up to the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby's second birthday.
PADDI VINT: So the Domestic Abuse Act for England and
PADDI VINT: Wales now recognises babies,
PADDI VINT: children and young people as co-victims in
PADDI VINT: their own right, which I think for many of us
PADDI VINT: in our charities and the domestic abuse
PADDI VINT: sector, we've always strongly believed
PADDI VINT: in. But this groundbreaking research that For
PADDI VINT: Baby's Sake has done is really highlighting
PADDI VINT: the scale of those children that's been
PADDI VINT: affected.
PADDI VINT: What does this new research from For Baby's
PADDI VINT: Sake show about how many babies in
PADDI VINT: England are affected by domestic abuse?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We really wanted to know what the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: answer to that question was.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so, like all of us do in the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: sector, first of all, we went to see
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what was publicly available,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: particularly in terms of government
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: data, children in need data, the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: sorts of things that were out there.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And it was actually very hard to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: work out how many babies were
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: directly impacted by domestic abuse
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because they were using categories
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: like family dysfunction or it was
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: coming under
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: categories of emotional abuse or neglect.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It was really hard to work it out.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So we made the decision to do a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: freedom of information request to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: local areas to ask how many
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 0-2s were being referred into
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children's services with domestic
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse as a factor and then how many
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: babies were being taken into care
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with domestic abuse as a factor.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And we had a return from the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: majority of local areas, and we can
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: come onto the kind of discrepancy in
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the data collection, which is issue
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in itself, but what it seemed to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: suggest was that on average, around
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 50,000 babies are referred into
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children's social care every year
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with domestic abuse as a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: contributing factor, with around
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 2,000 babies taken into care with
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuses as a contributing
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: factor. But we suspect this is
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: probably quite a significant
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: underestimate, even of the number of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: babies that are being referred in with
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse as a factor.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But it gives us some idea, one as
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to the discrepancy between data
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recording in different areas, but
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the scale of the issue that we're
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: all dealing with.
PADDI VINT: Interesting you say that because the NSPCC
PADDI VINT: Helpline receives around 200 contacts
PADDI VINT: a day from members of the public and domestic
PADDI VINT: abuse is around the fourth highest reason
PADDI VINT: that people contact us.
PADDI VINT: So your figures don't surprise me, but as you
PADDI VINT: say, potentially is the tip of the iceberg.
PADDI VINT: Certainly from my experience,
PADDI VINT: very often recognition that somebody's even
PADDI VINT: in an abusive relationship can take a very
PADDI VINT: long time to recognise and acknowledge,
PADDI VINT: particularly given coercive control being
PADDI VINT: played out in a relationship.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, absolutely.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And another piece of data that we
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: collected: last year we did a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: freedom of information to police
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: forces around the numbers of 0-2s
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: present for police call-outs for
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that came back with the police
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: forces that returned to us, which I
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think were 15 police forces, said
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that babies were present in about
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 13% of call-out, which was about
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 180,000 babies a year if you work
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: it out. So a lot more babies were
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: present at police call-outs — and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: again, that data won't have been fully
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: accurate — compared to the number
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being referred into children's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: social care, which is a worry in and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of itself around what's happening
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there. So I think you're absolutely
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: right, Paddi. We know one in five
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children experience domestic abuse
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: by the time they're 18 and 30%
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: begins in pregnancy.
PADDI VINT: Absolutely. But it's brilliant to be able to
PADDI VINT: have that information and that up to date
PADDI VINT: research to be able to reference.
PADDI VINT: In the research it was identified that
PADDI VINT: children were having this children's services
PADDI VINT: intervention and some children and babies
PADDI VINT: were being taken into care.
PADDI VINT: Why do you think so many babies are taken
PADDI VINT: into care? Is it the additional
PADDI VINT: vulnerabilities that a baby brings to a
PADDI VINT: situation?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, and Paddi, you'll know well
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that social care don't readily take
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: babies or any children into care.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that's important for people to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understand — that it will have meant
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that this is a critical incident
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: here. It's because babies are, of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: course, extremely vulnerable and we
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: know can be at high risk of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: homicide, and particularly where
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's been experience of domestic
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse or where there is domestic
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse. So those babies are at a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: point of real vulnerability.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But we would say that it's because
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there should have been intervention
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in those families' lives a lot
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: earlier and for a lot longer to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: prevent that ever happening.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Sometimes we work with parents who've
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: had multiple previous children
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: removed and this is the first baby
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: they've ever been able to keep in
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: their care and so very often it's a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: result of a failure of the system
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to support those families over a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: longer period of time, which then
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: results in that baby having to go
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: into care.
PADDI VINT: Now you've got research findings, what do you
PADDI VINT: think we need to see in practice?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Well, I think the thing that it's really
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: drawn out for us — and we know this
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because this is the reason for the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: For Baby's Sake Trust and the work
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that we do and the work that we've developed —
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: is this significant impact of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse in pregnancy.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I think what we would like to be
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: able to do is help to explore that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: even more. What's happening during
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that period of time within
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: relationships that's leading to this
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: epidemic of abuse, which is
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what it is. If 30% of it begins in
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that time, we're not talking about a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: small number of families here.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so really, really being able to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understand what are the pressures on
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: families at that point and what does
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that look like?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And there's lots of things that we could
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: talk around around that space. One
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of the things we're looking at at the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: moment is how much support is there
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: for dads during that period of time?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: What does that look like?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We've been involved with some work
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with an NHS trust looking at
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emotional health screening for dads
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: during the perinatal period, which
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: has helped to draw out domestic
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse during that period of time and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what's happening for dads.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But we know it's such a high-risk
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: time, but it's also an opportunity,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because that's time when services
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: are actively engaging with women.
PADDI VINT: And I think that sometimes can lead
PADDI VINT: on to that sense of
PADDI VINT: escalation, because there are services
PADDI VINT: involved it can have a twofold [effect]: it
PADDI VINT: can either increase the risk and increase the
PADDI VINT: likelihood of isolation, but it also opens
PADDI VINT: the door to the potential to have services
PADDI VINT: in place. When you're pregnant or just after
PADDI VINT: birth, you'd hope that there'd be an increase
PADDI VINT: of those professional services from midwives
PADDI VINT: and doctors and health visitors.
PADDI VINT: How do you think support services for
PADDI VINT: pregnant families and babies experiencing
PADDI VINT: domestic abuse could be improved?
PADDI VINT: That's probably a million dollar question.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: No, it's a brilliant question and it
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: would be good to hear your thoughts
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: on that as well, Paddi. I think from
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: our perspective, we've got to have
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: eyes-on. I'm really worried.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I understand why the NHS wants to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: move more towards digital, but if we
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: haven't got health visitors going
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: out into the community, seeing
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents, seeing babies, that's the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: risk. So we'd like to see investment
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in health visitors, support for
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: health visitors. We'd like to see
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: funding for IDVAs [Independent Domestic Violence Advocates] in
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hospitals, so they're out there
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with eyes on mums and babies,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looking at what's happening with
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: dynamics within relationships.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We've got to invest in people who
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: are out there supporting families.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's hugely important.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And then we need to see training for
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: midwives. We haven't got statutory
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: rollout of training for midwives and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: health visitors.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We can all do our bit as different
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: agencies to try and offer what we
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can, but we need to see that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: uniformly delivered across the whole
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: sector so that people are properly
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: supported to engage with parents.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And we'd like to see much more
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: engagement with dads in this space
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: as well.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But Paddi, what would you say?
PADDI VINT: No, I think you're absolutely right.
PADDI VINT: Nothing can replace that face-to-face contact
PADDI VINT: in terms of those early identifications.
PADDI VINT: I know there's been some studies done looking
PADDI VINT: at barriers to victims making those
PADDI VINT: disclosures in health settings.
PADDI VINT: And certainly on occasions, even a partner's
PADDI VINT: physical presence can be a factor, or
PADDI VINT: somebody who is potentially acting as a
PADDI VINT: translator, if English is your second
PADDI VINT: language, and the barriers that that may
PADDI VINT: have. Just being able to have that
PADDI VINT: opportunity to speak to somebody,
PADDI VINT: to be asked the question, to allow you to
PADDI VINT: answer is really, really important.
PADDI VINT: Certainly I've been in some clinics where
PADDI VINT: women leave potential samples in the bathroom
PADDI VINT: with notes so that they can actually have
PADDI VINT: that picked up by a professional and a safe
PADDI VINT: space is created to be able to speak to
PADDI VINT: that woman themselves on their own.
PADDI VINT: But obviously that's something that we would
PADDI VINT: love to be able to see.
PADDI VINT: Lauren, you touched on there about the need
PADDI VINT: for support, in particular for men, to be
PADDI VINT: improved.
PADDI VINT: And like many forms of abuse, that early
PADDI VINT: recognition and intervention is key.
PADDI VINT: But then equally, it's really important to
PADDI VINT: have those services in place to address it.
PADDI VINT: How do you think we could better support men?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So as a charity, we take a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: trauma-informed approach to domestic
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse. We work with co-parents where
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's a pregnancy and experience
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of domestic abuse. We have over 10
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: years experience of working with
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents who use abusive behaviours,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and on the whole that's the dad, but
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: not always.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And what we've learnt through that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 10 years is a real understanding of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the demographics of our families as
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well, and what's happened within those
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: lives. A trauma-informed approach
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: means really understanding what's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: brought people to this place and what
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: are their histories.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: What we find with our parents is
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that— in the last cohort which we've
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: just looked at, in the last quarter,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 70% of our parents had five or more
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: adverse childhood experiences.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So we're talking about experience of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse at hands of fathers,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: but 30% was at the hands of mothers.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We're talking about sexual abuse,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emotional abuse, neglect, alcohol
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse within the home.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We're very often working with very
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: young parents as well.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Commonly, our parents are between
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the age of 16 to 25 as well, which
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: is often not understood.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: In the current cohort that we're
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: working with, 13% were care
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experienced, but that can be as high
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: as 25% in some areas.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Mental ill health: 70% of our
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents are struggling with mental
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: ill health. Very high levels of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: substance misuse.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Very high level of housing needs.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so it's understanding what's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: going on for these families.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I would say with men, there's a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: real lack of recognition of what
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: these men have experienced as boys
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and as children.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yes, that begins in schools and it
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: begins with education, but it also
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: begins with schools recognising the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: number of boys and girls that are
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: living with domestic abuse at home.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: How much are we recognising what
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children are living with at home and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have grown up with at home, and the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: influence of what they're seeing at
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: home. We know the internet has a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: massive influence, but your primary
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: influence is your parents and what
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you grew up with and how much are we
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really recognising that. So in our
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: work, we're really exploring that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with our dads and our mums.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And for our parents, having a baby
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: is a real motivator for change
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because they often say this was the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: first baby in our whole generations
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of families to have a good
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: upbringing, to have a good life and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to have a chance of living without
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the shadow of abuse.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so for us, you've really got to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: look at the root causes of abusive
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: behaviour and that takes time.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: That takes deep work with families.
PADDI VINT: And as you say there, it's not just within
PADDI VINT: one. There's housing issues, substance
PADDI VINT: issues, school issues, and I think that's why
PADDI VINT: it's so important that organisations can come
PADDI VINT: together to be able to support; because
PADDI VINT: ultimately, if there is domestic abuse in a
PADDI VINT: relationship and that relationship doesn't
PADDI VINT: continue, they're still going to be fathers.
PADDI VINT: They're still gonna be mothers.
PADDI VINT: So it's so important that they have the
PADDI VINT: skills and the tools and the support there to
PADDI VINT: be able to be as best a father or a
PADDI VINT: mother as they can be.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, that's right. And I think, you
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: know, the other area of our work is
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really supporting attachment and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: attunement to the baby with both mum
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and dad, because that's so important
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: for keeping that baby safe and has
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: such a significant impact.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So we work both within the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: relationship and what's been happening
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there, but also around that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: attachment and attunment; really
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looking at what does your baby need,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognising that domestic abuse
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: impacts babies in the womb.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Mum's cortisol levels are impacting
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that baby right from the get-go.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So really helping parents to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understand that. And it's really
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: important to say, 50% of our parents
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: safely separate during their time
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with us as well. So we're not here
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to keep families together at the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: detriment of anyone's safety.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's really important to stress that.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But it touches on what you said,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Paddi, that very often, even if that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: couple separate, they go on to have
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: other relationships, they go onto
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have other children. And I'm sure
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you've seen that in your work that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: we can look at multiple partners
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being impacted by one person.
PADDI VINT: Absolutely.
PADDI VINT: Many of the women who contact our helpline
PADDI VINT: will often identify that their abuse started
PADDI VINT: or escalated when they became pregnant.
PADDI VINT: As you mentioned there, you know, 30%
PADDI VINT: of domestic abuse starting in pregnancy, and
PADDI VINT: then that increasing to 40% by the time the
PADDI VINT: child's two [years old].
PADDI VINT: And sadly, we know it's a high risk time.
PADDI VINT: You know, I'd be interested to know why you
PADDI VINT: think domestic abuse is so key in
PADDI VINT: pregnancy. What is it about that [time],
PADDI VINT: that's driving that forward?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Paddi, I wish we had the answer to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that. I think this is an area that's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really under-researched — really
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understanding what's going on.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I read a statistic recently as well,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: which is that one in five of any
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: couples separate by the time the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby's 12 months old.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So for everyone, this is
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: a really high risk time.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Having had kids myself, I could
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: guess at what some of the reasons
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: might be. I mean hormones, right?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Mass sleep deprivation in both
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: partners.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Struggling for money.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: The impact of not being in work,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what that can do for families.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It brings up an awful lot of stuff
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: about your own childhood when you
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have a baby.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think probably something around—
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well certainly around mental health
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in both mums and dads.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I think we've only just really
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: started to appreciate what's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: happening to mums and the risk of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: postnatal depression. I don't think
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: we've even begin to go there enough
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with dads yet, but we're starting to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: see the research around that and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: around what's happening there. And I
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: also think, what we've seen with
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: some of our fathers is an intense
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: fear of rejection at that point.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: That goes back to those childhood
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experiences of abuse around suddenly
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: "I may lose this person" or "I'm not
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: number one anymore".
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: That's not justifying that by any means, but it can bring up some really big
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emotions.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We know that one of the ways that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you can really importantly work with
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: people using abusive behaviours is
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to support emotional regulation, so
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: a lot of our work is around that: is
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: around helping parents be able to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognise their emotions and how
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: they're impacting others and how you
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: manage those emotions.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But big stuff comes up for everybody
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: when they have a baby and they're
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: supporting the baby.
PADDI VINT: And I think as well, it also increases
PADDI VINT: the difficulty, potentially, for a person to
PADDI VINT: leave an abusive situation.
PADDI VINT: You know, all of a sudden, it's not just them
PADDI VINT: anymore. It's them and their child
PADDI VINT: and the ability to be able to potentially
PADDI VINT: leave that situation safely.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, and that's certainly true in the demographics
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of families that we support as well.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I think for all mums — and it's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: predominantly mums who are experiencing
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse in pregnancy —
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's a real vulnerability at that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: time as well.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Like you said, it's not easy to just
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: get up and leave.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: You're going to be financially dependent,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: probably, for a period of time as
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well. All of those things make that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really, really challenging.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: There's also a huge fear that your
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby's going to get taken away, so
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that if you tell someone and you
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: don't feel able to leave, that your
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby will get taken away. And that's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: something that we deal with a lot,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: supporting around the shame and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: stigma. We did research with 2,000
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents during the pandemic and what
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: came out of that was again,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: staggeringly high numbers of parents
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: saying that they'd experienced
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse. I think it was about
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 40%. Many of them said that started
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in pregnancy, but again around 40%
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: said they didn't disclose it to anybody
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and the primary reason they didn't
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: disclose was shame.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Gosh, how do we get around that?
PADDI VINT: It's a factor we see on the Helpline; that
PADDI VINT: victims often...
PADDI VINT: their fear of feeling that they're not going
PADDI VINT: to be believed, that they don't necessarily
PADDI VINT: want to speak up or they're maybe
PADDI VINT: saying things like well I've not been
PADDI VINT: physically hit so therefore all of a sudden
PADDI VINT: they feel it as a lesser form of abuse, which
PADDI VINT: it absolutely isn't. I think language
PADDI VINT: is so important and it's great to see
PADDI VINT: things like CAFCASS' domestic abuse practisc
PADDI VINT: policy moving away from terms like 'alleged'
PADDI VINT: when talking about abuse, because language
PADDI VINT: can be so damaging and
PADDI VINT: stigmatising.
PADDI VINT: What impact do you think the use of
PADDI VINT: inaccurate language when discussing domestic
PADDI VINT: abuse has on victims?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think it's really important to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: explore what's leading to the sense
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of shame and stigma around domestic
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse. In fact we were even talking
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in the team this week about the word
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 'domestic' and some of the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: connotations that that has.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We were saying it kind of makes you
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think, doesn't it, the 1950s and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: aprons and people with frying pans,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and even that in itself isn't
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: necessarily helpful. It's about
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being able to use language
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that doesn't underplay the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: seriousness of what's happening, but
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: also means that people feel like
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: this is accessible and this is
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: something that they understand may
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: be happening to them.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We developed the parental
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: relationship abuse spectrum to help
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: people understand the difference
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: between conflict and domestic abuse
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and how those things impact your
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby because people need support
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to see that this is a wide spectrum
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of behaviours.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We're not just talking about things
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that people associate particularly
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with physical abuse, but we're
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: talking about, like you said, the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: huge instances of coercive control.
PADDI VINT: Absolutely. And the impact, as you said
PADDI VINT: earlier, on the baby and the stress that that
PADDI VINT: can cause.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, that that has.
PADDI VINT: Given the prevalence of domestic abuse, the
PADDI VINT: likelihood is that professionals will be
PADDI VINT: coming across potential victims of abuse on
PADDI VINT: a daily basis.
PADDI VINT: What do you think professionals need to know
PADDI VINT: about domestic abuse and how to support
PADDI VINT: pregnant families and babies affected by it?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Everybody should do training in domestic
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse to understand all the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different things that we're talking about,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the different ways domestic abuse
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can manifest, the signs and symptoms
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to look out for when you're working
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with people and where you can
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: signpost to support and all of that.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So that's really important.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But I also think it's important to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: be really aware of the heightened
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: risk within pregnancy and to really
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think about how you within your
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: services can create much more
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: accessibility and opportunities for
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: families to be able to open up to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you and to share concerns with you
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and think about what that might look
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: like. Being supported to open up
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: those conversations as well and to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hold those conversations.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Again, we've got on the website —
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and I'm sure NSPCC has similar —
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: resources around domestic abuse
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: handbooks and guides and FAQs and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different organisations where you
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can signpost to and support.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think it's just really important
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: as workplaces that we really equip
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: ourselves with domestic abuse
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: policies for all our employers, so
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that all of us get a lot more
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: confident in talking about this,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognising this, because that will
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: help to remove that shame and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: stigma. But we also know that — and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: this came from Safe Lives — that a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: high percentage of families also
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: seek support for the person using
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abusive behaviours, and it's very
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hard to get that support.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that's a real challenge.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's a real challenge because where
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: do you turn?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: You know, if you genuinely want to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: change, where do you get that help?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that's tough out there at the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: moment.
PADDI VINT: Absolutely. There definitely seems to be
PADDI VINT: a lack of direct services available
PADDI VINT: to be able to put those supports in place.
PADDI VINT: Certainly, I think there's a lot, as you
PADDI VINT: said, about being comfortable with the
PADDI VINT: uncomfortable; to be able to ask the
PADDI VINT: question. Because unless we ask the question,
PADDI VINT: we're not going to be able to get a response
PADDI VINT: to be able to then put in an understanding
PADDI VINT: of specialist services or safety planning
PADDI VINT: that can be offered, or referral pathways
PADDI VINT: into other organisations.
PADDI VINT: So creating that really safe,
PADDI VINT: non-judgmental environment for me
PADDI VINT: is key to be allowing us to start asking
PADDI VINT: those questions.
PADDI VINT: And I think having a real understanding
PADDI VINT: of the barriers to reporting abuse also
PADDI VINT: supports us in addressing the issues as well.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think so, and I think, you
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: touching on the non-judgmental
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: approach is so important;
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because from a trauma-informed
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: perspective as well, it's very much
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: about how do you empower people
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: within their own lives and give them
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that sense of agency as well?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Because I think people are really
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: scared of losing control, so that if
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I report this, suddenly everything's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: going to happen and it's all going to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: be out of my control. It's helping
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: people to understand, right, let's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: work together to put a safety plan
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in place. Let's really think about
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what you need at this time to keep
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you and your baby safe. And it's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being able to do that and support
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that, because that's what people are
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: scared of. They're scared that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: they're not going to have control.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And, you know, to some degree, if
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's a baby or a child at risk,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: then agencies need to take action to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: protect that baby and that child and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to protect that parent. But it's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: helping people understand the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: reasons for that and what that means
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and how they'll do that, but that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: help is there for them and people
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: aren't here to separate mothers from
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: their babies.
PADDI VINT: No, thankfully — that thought process is so
PADDI VINT: clear in people's mind and that fear is so
PADDI VINT: real, but actually agencies are a long
PADDI VINT: way from doing that.
PADDI VINT: But I think that also stops, to a certain
PADDI VINT: level as well, professionals potentially
PADDI VINT: raising a concern because they're worried
PADDI VINT: that it might not be right.
PADDI VINT: So they're not really sure.
PADDI VINT: Could this be, is it not?
PADDI VINT: Should I have concerns here?
PADDI VINT: What are the signs? What are the symptoms?
PADDI VINT: Should I be worried?
PADDI VINT: And I think sometimes, you know, on the
PADDI VINT: Helpline as well, we are more than
PADDI VINT: happy to talk to a professional or a member
PADDI VINT: of the public who has those inklings
PADDI VINT: or concerns, to give them an opportunity
PADDI VINT: to talk through and support them to be an
PADDI VINT: ally to that family while they're going
PADDI VINT: through this stage.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah and I think something else that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: definitely comes up in our work as
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well, and I know has come up in
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: previous contact we've had with
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Pause — and those listeners that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: don't know Pause, they give support
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to mothers who've had babies removed
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: — is for a number of the parents
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that we work with, they have had
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: this intergenerational cycles of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse within their families. Many of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: them have grown up with domestic
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse and to some degree that abuse
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: has been quite normalised in their
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: lives. They don't necessarily
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognise that what they're in is
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: anything different than what
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: everyone else is living and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experiencing.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so it's being able to recognise
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that as well, which means when
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you've got resources like family
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hubs or whatever it is we have out
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there, we've got to get a lot better
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: at being really upfront about this.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We shouldn't only be talking about
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse once there's a crisis
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: or once we think something's happened.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: These conversations should be
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: mainstreamed. Perhaps it's not
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: always using the language of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse either. Maybe using
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different language which feels less
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: scary, or helps people to really
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think about what's safe for a family
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and safe within a family
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: environment, can help to normalise
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: these discussions.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And then you can work with families
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to understand what is and isn't
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: okay; because we might think that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that's obvious, but it's always
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: obvious.
PADDI VINT: Absolutely, certainly contacts that we've
PADDI VINT: received... as you say, growing up in an
PADDI VINT: environment where this has always been the
PADDI VINT: norm, there becomes a level of, well, that's
PADDI VINT: just what happens.
PADDI VINT: And particularly within coercive control,
PADDI VINT: where there's maybe been some threats and
PADDI VINT: intimidation and emotional abuse, it's not
PADDI VINT: always as easily recognised for
PADDI VINT: people [that] that's not an acceptable
PADDI VINT: relationship.
PADDI VINT: Very often we have to almost strip it back
PADDI VINT: and look at "what is a healthy relationship"
PADDI VINT: rather than constantly looking at
PADDI VINT: "what's an unhealthy relationship".
PADDI VINT: Because I think really only when you look at
PADDI VINT: what a healthy relationships is, does it
PADDI VINT: almost help you identify areas that
PADDI VINT: aren't healthy or that are potentially
PADDI VINT: abusive.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Oh, I love that Paddi, I love that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emphasis on healthy relationships,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because it's starting with a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: positive rather than a negative.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's about mainstreaming
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: conversations about what healthy
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looks like all the time.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think that goes back to what we
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: were saying about schools, about
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: mainstreaming this in schools.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's not just about educating, it's
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: about living healthy relationships
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with kids. It's about modelling
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: healthy relationships so that kids
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can see in the way you treat them,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the way you make them feel, feels
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different to something they might be
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experiencing at home, which then
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: creates safety and trust, which then
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: means those children are able to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: open up to you. So I think all of us
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have got a responsibility to be able
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to model and teach and share what
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: healthy relationships look like and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: feel like. And I think that could go
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: some way to helping to reduce that
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: shame and stigma to then what it
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looks like to talk about when things don't
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: feel right or don't feel healthy.
PADDI VINT: The key thing for people is to know that
PADDI VINT: there's help and support available.
PADDI VINT: That's what we want to be able to share with
PADDI VINT: people; that they can pick up the phone, they
PADDI VINT: can reach out to particularly the NSPCC
PADDI VINT: Helpline. They can contact us on 0808 800
PADDI VINT: 5000, or they can drop
PADDI VINT: us an email at help@nspcc.org.uk,
PADDI VINT: where we'd be more than happy to
PADDI VINT: support mums, dads, professionals with
PADDI VINT: any of their concerns in regards to
PADDI VINT: this subject or any child protection subject.
PADDI VINT: Lauren, would you be happy to share for
PADDI VINT: listeners how they can reach out to For
PADDI VINT: Baby's Sake?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, if you visit forbabysaketrust.org.uk,
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: we're available in a number of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different areas in terms of support
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and there's also lots of resources
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: on our website and signposting for
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: help.
PADDI VINT: Thank you so much, Lauren, for joining me
PADDI VINT: today and talking about this subject.
PADDI VINT: And thank you everybody for listening.
PADDI VINT: All the best.
OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC learning
OUTRO: Podcast.
OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content
OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and
OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing.
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