1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,319 PRODUCER: Listener note: this podcast features discussion 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,139 PRODUCER: of domestic abuse. 3 00:00:05,140 --> 00:00:07,319 PRODUCER: Whilst listening, please be mindful of your own 4 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:09,959 PRODUCER: wellbeing and prioritise taking a break if you 5 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:10,960 PRODUCER: need to. 6 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,759 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast where 7 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:19,079 INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child 8 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:21,679 INTRO: protection from inside and outside of the 9 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:23,139 INTRO: organisation. 10 00:00:23,140 --> 00:00:26,179 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and 11 00:00:26,180 --> 00:00:28,379 INTRO: share good practise on how we can all work 12 00:00:28,380 --> 00:00:31,279 INTRO: together to keep babies, children and young 13 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:32,280 INTRO: people safe. 14 00:00:34,890 --> 00:00:38,169 PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast. 15 00:00:38,170 --> 00:00:40,869 PRODUCER: New research from domestic abuse charity For 16 00:00:40,870 --> 00:00:43,989 PRODUCER: Baby's Sake has revealed that each year, almost 17 00:00:43,990 --> 00:00:46,889 PRODUCER: 50,000 babies are referred to Children's 18 00:00:46,890 --> 00:00:49,749 PRODUCER: Social Care in England with domestic abuse as a 19 00:00:49,750 --> 00:00:52,689 PRODUCER: factor. In this episode of the podcast, 20 00:00:52,690 --> 00:00:55,609 PRODUCER: recorded in March 2025, the 21 00:00:55,610 --> 00:00:58,589 PRODUCER: NSPCC's Development and Quality Manager, 22 00:00:58,590 --> 00:01:00,869 PRODUCER: Paddi Vint, will be talking with For Baby's 23 00:01:00,870 --> 00:01:03,909 PRODUCER: Sake CEO, Lauren Seager-Smith, about this 24 00:01:03,910 --> 00:01:06,799 PRODUCER: research, domestic abuse in pregnancy, 25 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,159 PRODUCER: and what should be done to improve support for 26 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,099 PRODUCER: babies affected by domestic abuse. 27 00:01:12,100 --> 00:01:13,859 PRODUCER: I'll hand over to Paddi now to introduce 28 00:01:13,860 --> 00:01:16,289 PRODUCER: herself and begin the discussion. 29 00:01:16,290 --> 00:01:17,889 PADDI VINT: My name is Paddi Vint. 30 00:01:17,890 --> 00:01:19,689 PADDI VINT: I'm the Development and Quality Manager 31 00:01:19,690 --> 00:01:22,729 PADDI VINT: within the NSPCC Helpline and I oversee 32 00:01:22,730 --> 00:01:26,329 PADDI VINT: a team of domestic abuse practice advisors. 33 00:01:26,330 --> 00:01:29,429 PADDI VINT: Our podcast today is looking at the theme of 34 00:01:29,430 --> 00:01:32,429 PADDI VINT: domestic abuse and the impact on 35 00:01:32,430 --> 00:01:35,649 PADDI VINT: babies and with me today is Lauren. 36 00:01:35,650 --> 00:01:36,818 PADDI VINT: Lauren, do you want to introduce yourself? 37 00:01:37,860 --> 00:01:39,279 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Thanks Paddi. I'm Lauren 38 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,099 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Seager-Smith and I'm CEO of the For 39 00:01:42,100 --> 00:01:43,859 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Baby's Sake Trust. 40 00:01:43,860 --> 00:01:45,919 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We give whole-family therapeutic 41 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,279 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: support to co-parents where there's 42 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,979 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: been experience of domestic abuse. 43 00:01:50,980 --> 00:01:52,519 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We start in pregnancy up to the 44 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,139 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby's second birthday. 45 00:01:54,140 --> 00:01:56,379 PADDI VINT: So the Domestic Abuse Act for England and 46 00:01:56,380 --> 00:01:59,239 PADDI VINT: Wales now recognises babies, 47 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,899 PADDI VINT: children and young people as co-victims in 48 00:02:01,900 --> 00:02:04,619 PADDI VINT: their own right, which I think for many of us 49 00:02:04,620 --> 00:02:06,719 PADDI VINT: in our charities and the domestic abuse 50 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,719 PADDI VINT: sector, we've always strongly believed 51 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,399 PADDI VINT: in. But this groundbreaking research that For 52 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:14,639 PADDI VINT: Baby's Sake has done is really highlighting 53 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:17,439 PADDI VINT: the scale of those children that's been 54 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:18,939 PADDI VINT: affected. 55 00:02:18,940 --> 00:02:21,379 PADDI VINT: What does this new research from For Baby's 56 00:02:21,380 --> 00:02:24,419 PADDI VINT: Sake show about how many babies in 57 00:02:24,420 --> 00:02:27,609 PADDI VINT: England are affected by domestic abuse? 58 00:02:27,610 --> 00:02:29,309 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We really wanted to know what the 59 00:02:29,310 --> 00:02:31,229 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: answer to that question was. 60 00:02:31,230 --> 00:02:32,909 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so, like all of us do in the 61 00:02:32,910 --> 00:02:34,529 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: sector, first of all, we went to see 62 00:02:34,530 --> 00:02:36,789 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what was publicly available, 63 00:02:36,790 --> 00:02:38,269 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: particularly in terms of government 64 00:02:38,270 --> 00:02:40,329 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: data, children in need data, the 65 00:02:40,330 --> 00:02:41,849 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: sorts of things that were out there. 66 00:02:41,850 --> 00:02:43,669 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And it was actually very hard to 67 00:02:43,670 --> 00:02:45,309 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: work out how many babies were 68 00:02:45,310 --> 00:02:47,109 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: directly impacted by domestic abuse 69 00:02:47,110 --> 00:02:49,189 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because they were using categories 70 00:02:49,190 --> 00:02:50,891 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: like family dysfunction or it was 71 00:02:50,892 --> 00:02:51,892 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: coming under 72 00:02:53,930 --> 00:02:55,629 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: categories of emotional abuse or neglect. 73 00:02:55,630 --> 00:02:56,949 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It was really hard to work it out. 74 00:02:56,950 --> 00:02:58,769 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So we made the decision to do a 75 00:02:58,770 --> 00:03:00,269 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: freedom of information request to 76 00:03:00,270 --> 00:03:03,249 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: local areas to ask how many 77 00:03:03,250 --> 00:03:04,749 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 0-2s were being referred into 78 00:03:04,750 --> 00:03:06,249 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children's services with domestic 79 00:03:06,250 --> 00:03:08,409 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse as a factor and then how many 80 00:03:08,410 --> 00:03:09,989 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: babies were being taken into care 81 00:03:09,990 --> 00:03:11,909 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with domestic abuse as a factor. 82 00:03:11,910 --> 00:03:13,649 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And we had a return from the 83 00:03:13,650 --> 00:03:16,049 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: majority of local areas, and we can 84 00:03:16,050 --> 00:03:17,729 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: come onto the kind of discrepancy in 85 00:03:17,730 --> 00:03:19,409 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the data collection, which is issue 86 00:03:19,410 --> 00:03:21,589 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in itself, but what it seemed to 87 00:03:21,590 --> 00:03:24,049 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: suggest was that on average, around 88 00:03:24,050 --> 00:03:26,629 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 50,000 babies are referred into 89 00:03:26,630 --> 00:03:28,509 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children's social care every year 90 00:03:28,510 --> 00:03:30,209 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with domestic abuse as a 91 00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:32,229 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: contributing factor, with around 92 00:03:32,230 --> 00:03:35,269 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 2,000 babies taken into care with 93 00:03:35,270 --> 00:03:36,929 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuses as a contributing 94 00:03:36,930 --> 00:03:39,629 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: factor. But we suspect this is 95 00:03:39,630 --> 00:03:41,769 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: probably quite a significant 96 00:03:41,770 --> 00:03:44,469 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: underestimate, even of the number of 97 00:03:44,470 --> 00:03:45,789 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: babies that are being referred in with 98 00:03:45,790 --> 00:03:47,069 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse as a factor. 99 00:03:47,070 --> 00:03:50,079 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But it gives us some idea, one as 100 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:51,559 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to the discrepancy between data 101 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:52,959 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recording in different areas, but 102 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:54,879 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the scale of the issue that we're 103 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:55,979 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: all dealing with. 104 00:03:55,980 --> 00:03:58,499 PADDI VINT: Interesting you say that because the NSPCC 105 00:03:58,500 --> 00:04:01,399 PADDI VINT: Helpline receives around 200 contacts 106 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,399 PADDI VINT: a day from members of the public and domestic 107 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,859 PADDI VINT: abuse is around the fourth highest reason 108 00:04:06,860 --> 00:04:10,039 PADDI VINT: that people contact us. 109 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,359 PADDI VINT: So your figures don't surprise me, but as you 110 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,979 PADDI VINT: say, potentially is the tip of the iceberg. 111 00:04:15,980 --> 00:04:18,838 PADDI VINT: Certainly from my experience, 112 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,939 PADDI VINT: very often recognition that somebody's even 113 00:04:21,940 --> 00:04:24,839 PADDI VINT: in an abusive relationship can take a very 114 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:27,779 PADDI VINT: long time to recognise and acknowledge, 115 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,139 PADDI VINT: particularly given coercive control being 116 00:04:31,140 --> 00:04:32,988 PADDI VINT: played out in a relationship. 117 00:04:32,989 --> 00:04:34,269 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, absolutely. 118 00:04:34,270 --> 00:04:36,129 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And another piece of data that we 119 00:04:36,130 --> 00:04:37,569 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: collected: last year we did a 120 00:04:37,570 --> 00:04:39,049 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: freedom of information to police 121 00:04:39,050 --> 00:04:41,789 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: forces around the numbers of 0-2s 122 00:04:41,790 --> 00:04:43,609 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: present for police call-outs for 123 00:04:43,610 --> 00:04:44,829 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse. 124 00:04:44,830 --> 00:04:46,489 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that came back with the police 125 00:04:46,490 --> 00:04:48,029 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: forces that returned to us, which I 126 00:04:48,030 --> 00:04:49,589 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think were 15 police forces, said 127 00:04:49,590 --> 00:04:51,349 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that babies were present in about 128 00:04:51,350 --> 00:04:53,929 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 13% of call-out, which was about 129 00:04:53,930 --> 00:04:56,909 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 180,000 babies a year if you work 130 00:04:56,910 --> 00:04:59,269 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: it out. So a lot more babies were 131 00:04:59,270 --> 00:05:00,669 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: present at police call-outs — and 132 00:05:00,670 --> 00:05:02,209 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: again, that data won't have been fully 133 00:05:02,210 --> 00:05:04,399 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: accurate — compared to the number 134 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:05,679 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being referred into children's 135 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,159 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: social care, which is a worry in and 136 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,119 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of itself around what's happening 137 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,079 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there. So I think you're absolutely 138 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,779 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: right, Paddi. We know one in five 139 00:05:13,780 --> 00:05:15,339 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children experience domestic abuse 140 00:05:15,340 --> 00:05:17,459 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: by the time they're 18 and 30% 141 00:05:17,460 --> 00:05:18,779 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: begins in pregnancy. 142 00:05:18,780 --> 00:05:21,579 PADDI VINT: Absolutely. But it's brilliant to be able to 143 00:05:21,580 --> 00:05:24,479 PADDI VINT: have that information and that up to date 144 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,219 PADDI VINT: research to be able to reference. 145 00:05:27,220 --> 00:05:29,439 PADDI VINT: In the research it was identified that 146 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,959 PADDI VINT: children were having this children's services 147 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:34,569 PADDI VINT: intervention and some children and babies 148 00:05:34,570 --> 00:05:36,819 PADDI VINT: were being taken into care. 149 00:05:36,820 --> 00:05:38,699 PADDI VINT: Why do you think so many babies are taken 150 00:05:38,700 --> 00:05:40,459 PADDI VINT: into care? Is it the additional 151 00:05:40,460 --> 00:05:43,299 PADDI VINT: vulnerabilities that a baby brings to a 152 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:44,199 PADDI VINT: situation? 153 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,099 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, and Paddi, you'll know well 154 00:05:46,100 --> 00:05:48,759 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that social care don't readily take 155 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,319 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: babies or any children into care. 156 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:52,859 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that's important for people to 157 00:05:52,860 --> 00:05:54,339 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understand — that it will have meant 158 00:05:54,340 --> 00:05:56,059 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that this is a critical incident 159 00:05:56,060 --> 00:05:58,639 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: here. It's because babies are, of 160 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,059 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: course, extremely vulnerable and we 161 00:06:01,060 --> 00:06:03,139 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: know can be at high risk of 162 00:06:03,140 --> 00:06:05,939 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: homicide, and particularly where 163 00:06:05,940 --> 00:06:07,559 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's been experience of domestic 164 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:08,979 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse or where there is domestic 165 00:06:08,980 --> 00:06:10,339 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse. So those babies are at a 166 00:06:10,340 --> 00:06:12,359 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: point of real vulnerability. 167 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,499 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But we would say that it's because 168 00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:15,839 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there should have been intervention 169 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:17,559 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in those families' lives a lot 170 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,699 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: earlier and for a lot longer to 171 00:06:19,700 --> 00:06:21,040 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: prevent that ever happening. 172 00:06:22,140 --> 00:06:23,639 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Sometimes we work with parents who've 173 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:24,919 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: had multiple previous children 174 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,659 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: removed and this is the first baby 175 00:06:27,660 --> 00:06:29,139 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: they've ever been able to keep in 176 00:06:29,140 --> 00:06:31,379 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: their care and so very often it's a 177 00:06:31,380 --> 00:06:34,419 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: result of a failure of the system 178 00:06:34,420 --> 00:06:36,179 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to support those families over a 179 00:06:36,180 --> 00:06:37,759 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: longer period of time, which then 180 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:39,499 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: results in that baby having to go 181 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:39,979 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: into care. 182 00:06:39,980 --> 00:06:42,709 PADDI VINT: Now you've got research findings, what do you 183 00:06:42,710 --> 00:06:44,559 PADDI VINT: think we need to see in practice? 184 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,119 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Well, I think the thing that it's really 185 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,299 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: drawn out for us — and we know this 186 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:49,519 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because this is the reason for the 187 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:50,779 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: For Baby's Sake Trust and the work 188 00:06:50,780 --> 00:06:52,719 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that we do and the work that we've developed — 189 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,939 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: is this significant impact of 190 00:06:54,940 --> 00:06:57,059 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse in pregnancy. 191 00:06:57,060 --> 00:06:58,719 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I think what we would like to be 192 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,139 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: able to do is help to explore that 193 00:07:01,140 --> 00:07:03,079 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: even more. What's happening during 194 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,199 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that period of time within 195 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,762 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: relationships that's leading to this 196 00:07:07,763 --> 00:07:10,719 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: epidemic of abuse, which is 197 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,099 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what it is. If 30% of it begins in 198 00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:14,559 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that time, we're not talking about a 199 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,779 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: small number of families here. 200 00:07:16,780 --> 00:07:18,459 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so really, really being able to 201 00:07:18,460 --> 00:07:20,619 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understand what are the pressures on 202 00:07:20,620 --> 00:07:22,299 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: families at that point and what does 203 00:07:22,300 --> 00:07:23,679 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that look like? 204 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:24,939 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And there's lots of things that we could 205 00:07:24,940 --> 00:07:26,239 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: talk around around that space. One 206 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:27,499 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of the things we're looking at at the 207 00:07:27,500 --> 00:07:30,359 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: moment is how much support is there 208 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,119 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: for dads during that period of time? 209 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:33,799 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: What does that look like? 210 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,159 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We've been involved with some work 211 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:37,599 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with an NHS trust looking at 212 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,219 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emotional health screening for dads 213 00:07:39,220 --> 00:07:41,699 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: during the perinatal period, which 214 00:07:41,700 --> 00:07:43,179 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: has helped to draw out domestic 215 00:07:43,180 --> 00:07:45,139 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse during that period of time and 216 00:07:45,140 --> 00:07:46,619 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what's happening for dads. 217 00:07:46,620 --> 00:07:48,759 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But we know it's such a high-risk 218 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,479 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: time, but it's also an opportunity, 219 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:52,679 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because that's time when services 220 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:54,879 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: are actively engaging with women. 221 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,739 PADDI VINT: And I think that sometimes can lead 222 00:07:57,740 --> 00:08:01,079 PADDI VINT: on to that sense of 223 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:02,959 PADDI VINT: escalation, because there are services 224 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,059 PADDI VINT: involved it can have a twofold [effect]: it 225 00:08:05,060 --> 00:08:08,079 PADDI VINT: can either increase the risk and increase the 226 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,019 PADDI VINT: likelihood of isolation, but it also opens 227 00:08:11,020 --> 00:08:14,299 PADDI VINT: the door to the potential to have services 228 00:08:14,300 --> 00:08:16,739 PADDI VINT: in place. When you're pregnant or just after 229 00:08:16,740 --> 00:08:19,479 PADDI VINT: birth, you'd hope that there'd be an increase 230 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,939 PADDI VINT: of those professional services from midwives 231 00:08:22,940 --> 00:08:25,739 PADDI VINT: and doctors and health visitors. 232 00:08:25,740 --> 00:08:27,999 PADDI VINT: How do you think support services for 233 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,639 PADDI VINT: pregnant families and babies experiencing 234 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:32,339 PADDI VINT: domestic abuse could be improved? 235 00:08:32,340 --> 00:08:35,639 PADDI VINT: That's probably a million dollar question. 236 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:37,979 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: No, it's a brilliant question and it 237 00:08:37,980 --> 00:08:39,479 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: would be good to hear your thoughts 238 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:40,918 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: on that as well, Paddi. I think from 239 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:42,999 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: our perspective, we've got to have 240 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,679 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: eyes-on. I'm really worried. 241 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:46,319 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I understand why the NHS wants to 242 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,679 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: move more towards digital, but if we 243 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:50,219 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: haven't got health visitors going 244 00:08:50,220 --> 00:08:52,279 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: out into the community, seeing 245 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,479 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents, seeing babies, that's the 246 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,439 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: risk. So we'd like to see investment 247 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:58,939 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in health visitors, support for 248 00:08:58,940 --> 00:09:00,359 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: health visitors. We'd like to see 249 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:01,599 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: funding for IDVAs [Independent Domestic Violence Advocates] in 250 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,390 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hospitals, so they're out there 251 00:09:05,210 --> 00:09:07,109 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with eyes on mums and babies, 252 00:09:07,110 --> 00:09:08,389 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looking at what's happening with 253 00:09:08,390 --> 00:09:10,069 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: dynamics within relationships. 254 00:09:10,070 --> 00:09:12,329 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We've got to invest in people who 255 00:09:12,330 --> 00:09:14,249 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: are out there supporting families. 256 00:09:14,250 --> 00:09:15,649 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's hugely important. 257 00:09:15,650 --> 00:09:17,069 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And then we need to see training for 258 00:09:17,070 --> 00:09:19,349 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: midwives. We haven't got statutory 259 00:09:19,350 --> 00:09:21,569 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: rollout of training for midwives and 260 00:09:21,570 --> 00:09:22,789 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: health visitors. 261 00:09:22,790 --> 00:09:24,249 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We can all do our bit as different 262 00:09:24,250 --> 00:09:25,949 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: agencies to try and offer what we 263 00:09:25,950 --> 00:09:27,668 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can, but we need to see that 264 00:09:27,669 --> 00:09:29,649 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: uniformly delivered across the whole 265 00:09:29,650 --> 00:09:31,209 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: sector so that people are properly 266 00:09:31,210 --> 00:09:33,919 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: supported to engage with parents. 267 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:35,539 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And we'd like to see much more 268 00:09:35,540 --> 00:09:37,079 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: engagement with dads in this space 269 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:38,080 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: as well. 270 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,169 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But Paddi, what would you say? 271 00:09:41,170 --> 00:09:43,229 PADDI VINT: No, I think you're absolutely right. 272 00:09:43,230 --> 00:09:46,549 PADDI VINT: Nothing can replace that face-to-face contact 273 00:09:46,550 --> 00:09:49,229 PADDI VINT: in terms of those early identifications. 274 00:09:49,230 --> 00:09:51,889 PADDI VINT: I know there's been some studies done looking 275 00:09:51,890 --> 00:09:54,769 PADDI VINT: at barriers to victims making those 276 00:09:54,770 --> 00:09:57,369 PADDI VINT: disclosures in health settings. 277 00:09:57,370 --> 00:10:00,369 PADDI VINT: And certainly on occasions, even a partner's 278 00:10:00,370 --> 00:10:03,189 PADDI VINT: physical presence can be a factor, or 279 00:10:03,190 --> 00:10:05,869 PADDI VINT: somebody who is potentially acting as a 280 00:10:05,870 --> 00:10:07,569 PADDI VINT: translator, if English is your second 281 00:10:07,570 --> 00:10:09,889 PADDI VINT: language, and the barriers that that may 282 00:10:09,890 --> 00:10:11,899 PADDI VINT: have. Just being able to have that 283 00:10:11,900 --> 00:10:15,019 PADDI VINT: opportunity to speak to somebody, 284 00:10:15,020 --> 00:10:18,279 PADDI VINT: to be asked the question, to allow you to 285 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,119 PADDI VINT: answer is really, really important. 286 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,559 PADDI VINT: Certainly I've been in some clinics where 287 00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:26,199 PADDI VINT: women leave potential samples in the bathroom 288 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,699 PADDI VINT: with notes so that they can actually have 289 00:10:28,700 --> 00:10:31,339 PADDI VINT: that picked up by a professional and a safe 290 00:10:31,340 --> 00:10:34,259 PADDI VINT: space is created to be able to speak to 291 00:10:34,260 --> 00:10:36,639 PADDI VINT: that woman themselves on their own. 292 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,919 PADDI VINT: But obviously that's something that we would 293 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:40,380 PADDI VINT: love to be able to see. 294 00:10:41,740 --> 00:10:44,239 PADDI VINT: Lauren, you touched on there about the need 295 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,699 PADDI VINT: for support, in particular for men, to be 296 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:47,979 PADDI VINT: improved. 297 00:10:47,980 --> 00:10:50,179 PADDI VINT: And like many forms of abuse, that early 298 00:10:50,180 --> 00:10:53,399 PADDI VINT: recognition and intervention is key. 299 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,279 PADDI VINT: But then equally, it's really important to 300 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,239 PADDI VINT: have those services in place to address it. 301 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,839 PADDI VINT: How do you think we could better support men? 302 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,079 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So as a charity, we take a 303 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,059 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: trauma-informed approach to domestic 304 00:11:05,060 --> 00:11:07,099 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse. We work with co-parents where 305 00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:08,399 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's a pregnancy and experience 306 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,319 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of domestic abuse. We have over 10 307 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,719 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: years experience of working with 308 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,659 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents who use abusive behaviours, 309 00:11:14,660 --> 00:11:16,659 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and on the whole that's the dad, but 310 00:11:16,660 --> 00:11:18,039 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: not always. 311 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,719 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And what we've learnt through that 312 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,879 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 10 years is a real understanding of 313 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:23,779 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the demographics of our families as 314 00:11:23,780 --> 00:11:25,119 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well, and what's happened within those 315 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,639 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: lives. A trauma-informed approach 316 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,319 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: means really understanding what's 317 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:31,719 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: brought people to this place and what 318 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:32,720 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: are their histories. 319 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,209 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: What we find with our parents is 320 00:11:35,210 --> 00:11:37,199 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that— in the last cohort which we've 321 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,739 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: just looked at, in the last quarter, 322 00:11:39,740 --> 00:11:42,479 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 70% of our parents had five or more 323 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,679 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: adverse childhood experiences. 324 00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:46,239 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So we're talking about experience of 325 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,019 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse at hands of fathers, 326 00:11:48,020 --> 00:11:50,179 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: but 30% was at the hands of mothers. 327 00:11:50,180 --> 00:11:51,719 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We're talking about sexual abuse, 328 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,459 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emotional abuse, neglect, alcohol 329 00:11:54,460 --> 00:11:56,049 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse within the home. 330 00:11:56,050 --> 00:11:57,649 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We're very often working with very 331 00:11:57,650 --> 00:11:59,569 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: young parents as well. 332 00:11:59,570 --> 00:12:00,969 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Commonly, our parents are between 333 00:12:00,970 --> 00:12:03,169 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the age of 16 to 25 as well, which 334 00:12:03,170 --> 00:12:05,229 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: is often not understood. 335 00:12:05,230 --> 00:12:06,569 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: In the current cohort that we're 336 00:12:06,570 --> 00:12:08,049 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: working with, 13% were care 337 00:12:08,050 --> 00:12:09,709 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experienced, but that can be as high 338 00:12:09,710 --> 00:12:12,669 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: as 25% in some areas. 339 00:12:12,670 --> 00:12:15,169 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Mental ill health: 70% of our 340 00:12:15,170 --> 00:12:16,389 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents are struggling with mental 341 00:12:16,390 --> 00:12:17,909 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: ill health. Very high levels of 342 00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:19,269 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: substance misuse. 343 00:12:19,270 --> 00:12:21,379 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Very high level of housing needs. 344 00:12:21,380 --> 00:12:24,279 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so it's understanding what's 345 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:25,579 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: going on for these families. 346 00:12:25,580 --> 00:12:28,259 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I would say with men, there's a 347 00:12:28,260 --> 00:12:30,799 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: real lack of recognition of what 348 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,839 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: these men have experienced as boys 349 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:34,699 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and as children. 350 00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:36,599 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yes, that begins in schools and it 351 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,819 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: begins with education, but it also 352 00:12:38,820 --> 00:12:41,199 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: begins with schools recognising the 353 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,039 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: number of boys and girls that are 354 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,319 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: living with domestic abuse at home. 355 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:46,979 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: How much are we recognising what 356 00:12:46,980 --> 00:12:48,679 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children are living with at home and 357 00:12:48,680 --> 00:12:50,319 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have grown up with at home, and the 358 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:51,879 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: influence of what they're seeing at 359 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,839 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: home. We know the internet has a 360 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,439 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: massive influence, but your primary 361 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,579 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: influence is your parents and what 362 00:12:58,580 --> 00:13:00,119 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you grew up with and how much are we 363 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,779 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really recognising that. So in our 364 00:13:01,780 --> 00:13:03,599 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: work, we're really exploring that 365 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,779 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with our dads and our mums. 366 00:13:05,780 --> 00:13:07,619 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And for our parents, having a baby 367 00:13:07,620 --> 00:13:09,819 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: is a real motivator for change 368 00:13:09,820 --> 00:13:11,579 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because they often say this was the 369 00:13:11,580 --> 00:13:14,039 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: first baby in our whole generations 370 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:15,519 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of families to have a good 371 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,117 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: upbringing, to have a good life and 372 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,639 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to have a chance of living without 373 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,039 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the shadow of abuse. 374 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,019 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so for us, you've really got to 375 00:13:23,020 --> 00:13:24,559 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: look at the root causes of abusive 376 00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:26,812 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: behaviour and that takes time. 377 00:13:26,813 --> 00:13:29,609 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: That takes deep work with families. 378 00:13:29,610 --> 00:13:31,789 PADDI VINT: And as you say there, it's not just within 379 00:13:31,790 --> 00:13:34,869 PADDI VINT: one. There's housing issues, substance 380 00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:37,189 PADDI VINT: issues, school issues, and I think that's why 381 00:13:37,190 --> 00:13:40,449 PADDI VINT: it's so important that organisations can come 382 00:13:40,450 --> 00:13:42,722 PADDI VINT: together to be able to support; because 383 00:13:44,070 --> 00:13:46,969 PADDI VINT: ultimately, if there is domestic abuse in a 384 00:13:46,970 --> 00:13:49,649 PADDI VINT: relationship and that relationship doesn't 385 00:13:49,650 --> 00:13:52,909 PADDI VINT: continue, they're still going to be fathers. 386 00:13:52,910 --> 00:13:54,889 PADDI VINT: They're still gonna be mothers. 387 00:13:54,890 --> 00:13:57,679 PADDI VINT: So it's so important that they have the 388 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:00,619 PADDI VINT: skills and the tools and the support there to 389 00:14:00,620 --> 00:14:03,519 PADDI VINT: be able to be as best a father or a 390 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:04,979 PADDI VINT: mother as they can be. 391 00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:06,459 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, that's right. And I think, you 392 00:14:06,460 --> 00:14:08,119 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: know, the other area of our work is 393 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:09,919 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really supporting attachment and 394 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,039 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: attunement to the baby with both mum 395 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,319 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and dad, because that's so important 396 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,819 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: for keeping that baby safe and has 397 00:14:16,820 --> 00:14:18,199 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: such a significant impact. 398 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:19,899 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So we work both within the 399 00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:21,359 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: relationship and what's been happening 400 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:22,779 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there, but also around that 401 00:14:22,780 --> 00:14:24,139 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: attachment and attunment; really 402 00:14:24,140 --> 00:14:26,639 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looking at what does your baby need, 403 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:27,999 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognising that domestic abuse 404 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,559 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: impacts babies in the womb. 405 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,139 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Mum's cortisol levels are impacting 406 00:14:31,140 --> 00:14:33,129 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that baby right from the get-go. 407 00:14:33,130 --> 00:14:34,689 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So really helping parents to 408 00:14:34,690 --> 00:14:36,289 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understand that. And it's really 409 00:14:36,290 --> 00:14:38,329 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: important to say, 50% of our parents 410 00:14:38,330 --> 00:14:39,909 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: safely separate during their time 411 00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:41,649 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with us as well. So we're not here 412 00:14:41,650 --> 00:14:43,889 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to keep families together at the 413 00:14:43,890 --> 00:14:45,689 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: detriment of anyone's safety. 414 00:14:45,690 --> 00:14:47,069 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's really important to stress that. 415 00:14:47,070 --> 00:14:48,429 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But it touches on what you said, 416 00:14:48,430 --> 00:14:50,829 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Paddi, that very often, even if that 417 00:14:50,830 --> 00:14:52,529 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: couple separate, they go on to have 418 00:14:52,530 --> 00:14:53,929 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: other relationships, they go onto 419 00:14:53,930 --> 00:14:55,829 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have other children. And I'm sure 420 00:14:55,830 --> 00:14:57,669 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you've seen that in your work that 421 00:14:57,670 --> 00:15:00,009 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: we can look at multiple partners 422 00:15:00,010 --> 00:15:02,119 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being impacted by one person. 423 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,919 PADDI VINT: Absolutely. 424 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,979 PADDI VINT: Many of the women who contact our helpline 425 00:15:06,980 --> 00:15:10,079 PADDI VINT: will often identify that their abuse started 426 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,659 PADDI VINT: or escalated when they became pregnant. 427 00:15:13,660 --> 00:15:16,699 PADDI VINT: As you mentioned there, you know, 30% 428 00:15:16,700 --> 00:15:19,099 PADDI VINT: of domestic abuse starting in pregnancy, and 429 00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:21,819 PADDI VINT: then that increasing to 40% by the time the 430 00:15:21,820 --> 00:15:23,079 PADDI VINT: child's two [years old]. 431 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,519 PADDI VINT: And sadly, we know it's a high risk time. 432 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,079 PADDI VINT: You know, I'd be interested to know why you 433 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,510 PADDI VINT: think domestic abuse is so key in 434 00:15:31,619 --> 00:15:34,009 PADDI VINT: pregnancy. What is it about that [time], 435 00:15:34,010 --> 00:15:35,179 PADDI VINT: that's driving that forward? 436 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:37,779 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Paddi, I wish we had the answer to 437 00:15:37,780 --> 00:15:39,259 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that. I think this is an area that's 438 00:15:39,260 --> 00:15:40,373 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really under-researched — really 439 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:43,259 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understanding what's going on. 440 00:15:43,260 --> 00:15:45,139 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I read a statistic recently as well, 441 00:15:45,140 --> 00:15:47,319 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: which is that one in five of any 442 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,079 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: couples separate by the time the 443 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:50,979 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby's 12 months old. 444 00:15:50,980 --> 00:15:53,959 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So for everyone, this is 445 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,299 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: a really high risk time. 446 00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:57,659 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Having had kids myself, I could 447 00:15:57,660 --> 00:15:59,019 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: guess at what some of the reasons 448 00:15:59,020 --> 00:16:01,440 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: might be. I mean hormones, right? 449 00:16:01,441 --> 00:16:03,959 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Mass sleep deprivation in both 450 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:05,199 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: partners. 451 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:06,639 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Struggling for money. 452 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:08,299 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: The impact of not being in work, 453 00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:10,339 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what that can do for families. 454 00:16:10,340 --> 00:16:12,079 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It brings up an awful lot of stuff 455 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:13,639 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: about your own childhood when you 456 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:15,019 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have a baby. 457 00:16:15,020 --> 00:16:17,519 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think probably something around— 458 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:19,119 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well certainly around mental health 459 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:20,699 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in both mums and dads. 460 00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:22,679 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I think we've only just really 461 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,019 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: started to appreciate what's 462 00:16:24,020 --> 00:16:26,079 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: happening to mums and the risk of 463 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,319 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: postnatal depression. I don't think 464 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:28,939 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: we've even begin to go there enough 465 00:16:28,940 --> 00:16:30,739 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with dads yet, but we're starting to 466 00:16:30,740 --> 00:16:32,379 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: see the research around that and 467 00:16:32,380 --> 00:16:34,299 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: around what's happening there. And I 468 00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:36,319 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: also think, what we've seen with 469 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,399 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: some of our fathers is an intense 470 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,999 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: fear of rejection at that point. 471 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,579 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: That goes back to those childhood 472 00:16:42,580 --> 00:16:45,759 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experiences of abuse around suddenly 473 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,299 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: "I may lose this person" or "I'm not 474 00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:49,340 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: number one anymore". 475 00:16:52,820 --> 00:16:54,199 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: That's not justifying that by any means, but it can bring up some really big 476 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,200 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emotions. 477 00:16:55,670 --> 00:16:57,609 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We know that one of the ways that 478 00:16:57,610 --> 00:16:59,189 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you can really importantly work with 479 00:16:59,190 --> 00:17:00,889 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: people using abusive behaviours is 480 00:17:00,890 --> 00:17:02,789 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to support emotional regulation, so 481 00:17:02,790 --> 00:17:04,889 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: a lot of our work is around that: is 482 00:17:04,890 --> 00:17:06,509 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: around helping parents be able to 483 00:17:06,510 --> 00:17:08,608 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognise their emotions and how 484 00:17:08,609 --> 00:17:10,049 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: they're impacting others and how you 485 00:17:10,050 --> 00:17:11,868 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: manage those emotions. 486 00:17:11,869 --> 00:17:13,649 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But big stuff comes up for everybody 487 00:17:13,650 --> 00:17:15,568 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: when they have a baby and they're 488 00:17:15,569 --> 00:17:16,559 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: supporting the baby. 489 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,499 PADDI VINT: And I think as well, it also increases 490 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:22,439 PADDI VINT: the difficulty, potentially, for a person to 491 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,118 PADDI VINT: leave an abusive situation. 492 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,739 PADDI VINT: You know, all of a sudden, it's not just them 493 00:17:26,740 --> 00:17:29,679 PADDI VINT: anymore. It's them and their child 494 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,879 PADDI VINT: and the ability to be able to potentially 495 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,689 PADDI VINT: leave that situation safely. 496 00:17:34,690 --> 00:17:36,269 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, and that's certainly true in the demographics 497 00:17:36,270 --> 00:17:38,269 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of families that we support as well. 498 00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:40,909 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I think for all mums — and it's 499 00:17:40,910 --> 00:17:42,449 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: predominantly mums who are experiencing 500 00:17:42,450 --> 00:17:44,473 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse in pregnancy — 501 00:17:44,474 --> 00:17:45,749 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's a real vulnerability at that 502 00:17:45,750 --> 00:17:46,750 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: time as well. 503 00:17:48,030 --> 00:17:50,209 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Like you said, it's not easy to just 504 00:17:50,210 --> 00:17:51,929 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: get up and leave. 505 00:17:51,930 --> 00:17:54,009 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: You're going to be financially dependent, 506 00:17:54,010 --> 00:17:56,064 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: probably, for a period of time as 507 00:17:56,065 --> 00:17:58,529 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well. All of those things make that 508 00:17:58,530 --> 00:17:59,729 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really, really challenging. 509 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,399 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: There's also a huge fear that your 510 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,099 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby's going to get taken away, so 511 00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:05,519 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that if you tell someone and you 512 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,839 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: don't feel able to leave, that your 513 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:09,159 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby will get taken away. And that's 514 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:10,739 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: something that we deal with a lot, 515 00:18:10,740 --> 00:18:12,719 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: supporting around the shame and 516 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,299 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: stigma. We did research with 2,000 517 00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:17,319 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents during the pandemic and what 518 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:18,819 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: came out of that was again, 519 00:18:18,820 --> 00:18:20,619 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: staggeringly high numbers of parents 520 00:18:20,620 --> 00:18:22,359 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: saying that they'd experienced 521 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:23,979 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse. I think it was about 522 00:18:23,980 --> 00:18:26,379 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 40%. Many of them said that started 523 00:18:26,380 --> 00:18:28,419 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in pregnancy, but again around 40% 524 00:18:28,420 --> 00:18:29,859 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: said they didn't disclose it to anybody 525 00:18:29,860 --> 00:18:31,779 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and the primary reason they didn't 526 00:18:31,780 --> 00:18:32,780 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: disclose was shame. 527 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,828 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Gosh, how do we get around that? 528 00:18:36,829 --> 00:18:39,129 PADDI VINT: It's a factor we see on the Helpline; that 529 00:18:39,130 --> 00:18:40,349 PADDI VINT: victims often... 530 00:18:40,350 --> 00:18:42,609 PADDI VINT: their fear of feeling that they're not going 531 00:18:42,610 --> 00:18:45,669 PADDI VINT: to be believed, that they don't necessarily 532 00:18:45,670 --> 00:18:48,929 PADDI VINT: want to speak up or they're maybe 533 00:18:48,930 --> 00:18:50,709 PADDI VINT: saying things like well I've not been 534 00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:53,349 PADDI VINT: physically hit so therefore all of a sudden 535 00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:56,409 PADDI VINT: they feel it as a lesser form of abuse, which 536 00:18:56,410 --> 00:18:59,549 PADDI VINT: it absolutely isn't. I think language 537 00:18:59,550 --> 00:19:02,489 PADDI VINT: is so important and it's great to see 538 00:19:02,490 --> 00:19:05,029 PADDI VINT: things like CAFCASS' domestic abuse practisc 539 00:19:05,030 --> 00:19:08,349 PADDI VINT: policy moving away from terms like 'alleged' 540 00:19:08,350 --> 00:19:10,909 PADDI VINT: when talking about abuse, because language 541 00:19:10,910 --> 00:19:13,789 PADDI VINT: can be so damaging and 542 00:19:13,790 --> 00:19:15,189 PADDI VINT: stigmatising. 543 00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:17,189 PADDI VINT: What impact do you think the use of 544 00:19:17,190 --> 00:19:20,109 PADDI VINT: inaccurate language when discussing domestic 545 00:19:20,110 --> 00:19:22,549 PADDI VINT: abuse has on victims? 546 00:19:22,550 --> 00:19:24,289 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think it's really important to 547 00:19:24,290 --> 00:19:26,209 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: explore what's leading to the sense 548 00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:28,609 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of shame and stigma around domestic 549 00:19:28,610 --> 00:19:30,329 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse. In fact we were even talking 550 00:19:30,330 --> 00:19:31,949 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in the team this week about the word 551 00:19:31,950 --> 00:19:34,269 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 'domestic' and some of the 552 00:19:34,270 --> 00:19:35,829 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: connotations that that has. 553 00:19:35,830 --> 00:19:37,449 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We were saying it kind of makes you 554 00:19:37,450 --> 00:19:39,649 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think, doesn't it, the 1950s and 555 00:19:39,650 --> 00:19:41,893 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: aprons and people with frying pans, 556 00:19:41,894 --> 00:19:44,389 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and even that in itself isn't 557 00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:45,989 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: necessarily helpful. It's about 558 00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:49,049 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being able to use language 559 00:19:49,050 --> 00:19:50,589 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that doesn't underplay the 560 00:19:50,590 --> 00:19:52,569 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: seriousness of what's happening, but 561 00:19:52,570 --> 00:19:54,349 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: also means that people feel like 562 00:19:54,350 --> 00:19:55,929 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: this is accessible and this is 563 00:19:55,930 --> 00:19:57,169 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: something that they understand may 564 00:19:57,170 --> 00:19:58,529 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: be happening to them. 565 00:19:58,530 --> 00:20:00,909 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We developed the parental 566 00:20:00,910 --> 00:20:03,289 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: relationship abuse spectrum to help 567 00:20:03,290 --> 00:20:04,789 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: people understand the difference 568 00:20:04,790 --> 00:20:07,309 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: between conflict and domestic abuse 569 00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:09,249 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and how those things impact your 570 00:20:09,250 --> 00:20:12,129 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby because people need support 571 00:20:12,130 --> 00:20:14,269 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to see that this is a wide spectrum 572 00:20:14,270 --> 00:20:15,270 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of behaviours. 573 00:20:17,130 --> 00:20:18,499 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We're not just talking about things 574 00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:19,719 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that people associate particularly 575 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,299 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with physical abuse, but we're 576 00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:23,439 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: talking about, like you said, the 577 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,809 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: huge instances of coercive control. 578 00:20:25,810 --> 00:20:27,749 PADDI VINT: Absolutely. And the impact, as you said 579 00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:30,449 PADDI VINT: earlier, on the baby and the stress that that 580 00:20:30,450 --> 00:20:30,848 PADDI VINT: can cause. 581 00:20:30,849 --> 00:20:32,309 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, that that has. 582 00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:34,929 PADDI VINT: Given the prevalence of domestic abuse, the 583 00:20:34,930 --> 00:20:37,469 PADDI VINT: likelihood is that professionals will be 584 00:20:37,470 --> 00:20:40,549 PADDI VINT: coming across potential victims of abuse on 585 00:20:40,550 --> 00:20:42,349 PADDI VINT: a daily basis. 586 00:20:42,350 --> 00:20:44,409 PADDI VINT: What do you think professionals need to know 587 00:20:44,410 --> 00:20:47,309 PADDI VINT: about domestic abuse and how to support 588 00:20:47,310 --> 00:20:50,060 PADDI VINT: pregnant families and babies affected by it? 589 00:20:51,099 --> 00:20:52,419 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Everybody should do training in domestic 590 00:20:52,420 --> 00:20:54,159 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse to understand all the 591 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:55,479 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different things that we're talking about, 592 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:56,879 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the different ways domestic abuse 593 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,439 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can manifest, the signs and symptoms 594 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,159 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to look out for when you're working 595 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:02,999 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with people and where you can 596 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:04,859 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: signpost to support and all of that. 597 00:21:04,860 --> 00:21:06,379 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So that's really important. 598 00:21:06,380 --> 00:21:08,419 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But I also think it's important to 599 00:21:08,420 --> 00:21:10,599 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: be really aware of the heightened 600 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,479 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: risk within pregnancy and to really 601 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,949 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think about how you within your 602 00:21:15,950 --> 00:21:18,229 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: services can create much more 603 00:21:18,230 --> 00:21:20,569 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: accessibility and opportunities for 604 00:21:20,570 --> 00:21:22,629 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: families to be able to open up to 605 00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:24,469 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you and to share concerns with you 606 00:21:24,470 --> 00:21:25,889 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and think about what that might look 607 00:21:25,890 --> 00:21:28,359 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: like. Being supported to open up 608 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:30,049 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: those conversations as well and to 609 00:21:30,050 --> 00:21:31,989 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hold those conversations. 610 00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:33,728 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Again, we've got on the website — 611 00:21:33,729 --> 00:21:35,467 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and I'm sure NSPCC has similar — 612 00:21:35,468 --> 00:21:36,769 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: resources around domestic abuse 613 00:21:36,770 --> 00:21:39,649 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: handbooks and guides and FAQs and 614 00:21:39,650 --> 00:21:40,989 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different organisations where you 615 00:21:40,990 --> 00:21:43,169 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can signpost to and support. 616 00:21:43,170 --> 00:21:44,469 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think it's just really important 617 00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:46,229 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: as workplaces that we really equip 618 00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:47,789 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: ourselves with domestic abuse 619 00:21:47,790 --> 00:21:49,689 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: policies for all our employers, so 620 00:21:49,690 --> 00:21:51,369 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that all of us get a lot more 621 00:21:51,370 --> 00:21:53,009 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: confident in talking about this, 622 00:21:53,010 --> 00:21:54,289 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognising this, because that will 623 00:21:54,290 --> 00:21:56,069 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: help to remove that shame and 624 00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:58,789 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: stigma. But we also know that — and 625 00:21:58,790 --> 00:22:00,589 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: this came from Safe Lives — that a 626 00:22:00,590 --> 00:22:02,789 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: high percentage of families also 627 00:22:02,790 --> 00:22:04,589 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: seek support for the person using 628 00:22:04,590 --> 00:22:06,129 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abusive behaviours, and it's very 629 00:22:06,130 --> 00:22:07,889 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hard to get that support. 630 00:22:07,890 --> 00:22:09,789 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that's a real challenge. 631 00:22:09,790 --> 00:22:11,089 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's a real challenge because where 632 00:22:11,090 --> 00:22:12,341 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: do you turn? 633 00:22:12,342 --> 00:22:13,919 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: You know, if you genuinely want to 634 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:15,539 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: change, where do you get that help? 635 00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:16,819 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that's tough out there at the 636 00:22:16,820 --> 00:22:17,439 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: moment. 637 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,479 PADDI VINT: Absolutely. There definitely seems to be 638 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,999 PADDI VINT: a lack of direct services available 639 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,279 PADDI VINT: to be able to put those supports in place. 640 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,219 PADDI VINT: Certainly, I think there's a lot, as you 641 00:22:29,220 --> 00:22:31,619 PADDI VINT: said, about being comfortable with the 642 00:22:31,620 --> 00:22:34,739 PADDI VINT: uncomfortable; to be able to ask the 643 00:22:34,740 --> 00:22:37,979 PADDI VINT: question. Because unless we ask the question, 644 00:22:37,980 --> 00:22:40,179 PADDI VINT: we're not going to be able to get a response 645 00:22:40,180 --> 00:22:43,539 PADDI VINT: to be able to then put in an understanding 646 00:22:43,540 --> 00:22:46,339 PADDI VINT: of specialist services or safety planning 647 00:22:46,340 --> 00:22:49,129 PADDI VINT: that can be offered, or referral pathways 648 00:22:49,130 --> 00:22:52,369 PADDI VINT: into other organisations. 649 00:22:52,370 --> 00:22:55,909 PADDI VINT: So creating that really safe, 650 00:22:55,910 --> 00:22:59,289 PADDI VINT: non-judgmental environment for me 651 00:22:59,290 --> 00:23:02,149 PADDI VINT: is key to be allowing us to start asking 652 00:23:02,150 --> 00:23:04,069 PADDI VINT: those questions. 653 00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:07,109 PADDI VINT: And I think having a real understanding 654 00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:09,929 PADDI VINT: of the barriers to reporting abuse also 655 00:23:09,930 --> 00:23:12,979 PADDI VINT: supports us in addressing the issues as well. 656 00:23:12,980 --> 00:23:14,839 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think so, and I think, you 657 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,499 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: touching on the non-judgmental 658 00:23:16,500 --> 00:23:19,678 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: approach is so important; 659 00:23:19,679 --> 00:23:21,279 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because from a trauma-informed 660 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,039 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: perspective as well, it's very much 661 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,779 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: about how do you empower people 662 00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:26,419 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: within their own lives and give them 663 00:23:26,420 --> 00:23:28,459 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that sense of agency as well? 664 00:23:28,460 --> 00:23:30,219 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Because I think people are really 665 00:23:30,220 --> 00:23:32,279 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: scared of losing control, so that if 666 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:33,619 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I report this, suddenly everything's 667 00:23:33,620 --> 00:23:34,859 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: going to happen and it's all going to 668 00:23:34,860 --> 00:23:36,809 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: be out of my control. It's helping 669 00:23:36,810 --> 00:23:38,189 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: people to understand, right, let's 670 00:23:38,190 --> 00:23:39,729 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: work together to put a safety plan 671 00:23:39,730 --> 00:23:41,009 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in place. Let's really think about 672 00:23:41,010 --> 00:23:42,869 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what you need at this time to keep 673 00:23:42,870 --> 00:23:44,369 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you and your baby safe. And it's 674 00:23:44,370 --> 00:23:46,049 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being able to do that and support 675 00:23:46,050 --> 00:23:47,329 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that, because that's what people are 676 00:23:47,330 --> 00:23:48,609 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: scared of. They're scared that 677 00:23:48,610 --> 00:23:50,729 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: they're not going to have control. 678 00:23:50,730 --> 00:23:52,289 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And, you know, to some degree, if 679 00:23:52,290 --> 00:23:54,829 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's a baby or a child at risk, 680 00:23:54,830 --> 00:23:56,629 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: then agencies need to take action to 681 00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:58,329 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: protect that baby and that child and 682 00:23:58,330 --> 00:23:59,709 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to protect that parent. But it's 683 00:23:59,710 --> 00:24:01,049 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: helping people understand the 684 00:24:01,050 --> 00:24:03,109 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: reasons for that and what that means 685 00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:05,119 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and how they'll do that, but that 686 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:06,679 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: help is there for them and people 687 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,019 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: aren't here to separate mothers from 688 00:24:09,020 --> 00:24:10,020 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: their babies. 689 00:24:11,009 --> 00:24:12,869 PADDI VINT: No, thankfully — that thought process is so 690 00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:15,289 PADDI VINT: clear in people's mind and that fear is so 691 00:24:15,290 --> 00:24:18,169 PADDI VINT: real, but actually agencies are a long 692 00:24:18,170 --> 00:24:20,489 PADDI VINT: way from doing that. 693 00:24:20,490 --> 00:24:23,089 PADDI VINT: But I think that also stops, to a certain 694 00:24:23,090 --> 00:24:26,029 PADDI VINT: level as well, professionals potentially 695 00:24:26,030 --> 00:24:28,649 PADDI VINT: raising a concern because they're worried 696 00:24:28,650 --> 00:24:30,449 PADDI VINT: that it might not be right. 697 00:24:30,450 --> 00:24:32,209 PADDI VINT: So they're not really sure. 698 00:24:32,210 --> 00:24:34,169 PADDI VINT: Could this be, is it not? 699 00:24:34,170 --> 00:24:35,609 PADDI VINT: Should I have concerns here? 700 00:24:35,610 --> 00:24:37,329 PADDI VINT: What are the signs? What are the symptoms? 701 00:24:37,330 --> 00:24:38,649 PADDI VINT: Should I be worried? 702 00:24:38,650 --> 00:24:40,149 PADDI VINT: And I think sometimes, you know, on the 703 00:24:40,150 --> 00:24:43,189 PADDI VINT: Helpline as well, we are more than 704 00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:46,089 PADDI VINT: happy to talk to a professional or a member 705 00:24:46,090 --> 00:24:49,049 PADDI VINT: of the public who has those inklings 706 00:24:49,050 --> 00:24:52,089 PADDI VINT: or concerns, to give them an opportunity 707 00:24:52,090 --> 00:24:54,789 PADDI VINT: to talk through and support them to be an 708 00:24:54,790 --> 00:24:57,489 PADDI VINT: ally to that family while they're going 709 00:24:57,490 --> 00:24:58,749 PADDI VINT: through this stage. 710 00:24:58,750 --> 00:25:00,549 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah and I think something else that 711 00:25:00,550 --> 00:25:02,349 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: definitely comes up in our work as 712 00:25:02,350 --> 00:25:04,109 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well, and I know has come up in 713 00:25:04,110 --> 00:25:05,769 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: previous contact we've had with 714 00:25:05,770 --> 00:25:07,109 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Pause — and those listeners that 715 00:25:07,110 --> 00:25:08,409 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: don't know Pause, they give support 716 00:25:08,410 --> 00:25:10,089 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to mothers who've had babies removed 717 00:25:10,090 --> 00:25:12,089 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: — is for a number of the parents 718 00:25:12,090 --> 00:25:13,889 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that we work with, they have had 719 00:25:13,890 --> 00:25:16,149 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: this intergenerational cycles of 720 00:25:16,150 --> 00:25:18,249 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse within their families. Many of 721 00:25:18,250 --> 00:25:19,529 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: them have grown up with domestic 722 00:25:19,530 --> 00:25:21,509 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse and to some degree that abuse 723 00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:23,069 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: has been quite normalised in their 724 00:25:23,070 --> 00:25:24,469 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: lives. They don't necessarily 725 00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:26,409 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognise that what they're in is 726 00:25:26,410 --> 00:25:27,929 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: anything different than what 727 00:25:27,930 --> 00:25:29,769 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: everyone else is living and 728 00:25:29,770 --> 00:25:31,149 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experiencing. 729 00:25:31,150 --> 00:25:32,809 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so it's being able to recognise 730 00:25:32,810 --> 00:25:34,829 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that as well, which means when 731 00:25:34,830 --> 00:25:36,569 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you've got resources like family 732 00:25:36,570 --> 00:25:38,409 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hubs or whatever it is we have out 733 00:25:38,410 --> 00:25:40,789 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there, we've got to get a lot better 734 00:25:40,790 --> 00:25:42,909 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: at being really upfront about this. 735 00:25:42,910 --> 00:25:44,169 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We shouldn't only be talking about 736 00:25:44,170 --> 00:25:45,689 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse once there's a crisis 737 00:25:45,690 --> 00:25:47,979 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: or once we think something's happened. 738 00:25:47,980 --> 00:25:49,399 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: These conversations should be 739 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,099 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: mainstreamed. Perhaps it's not 740 00:25:51,100 --> 00:25:52,359 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: always using the language of 741 00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:54,279 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse either. Maybe using 742 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:55,959 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different language which feels less 743 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,579 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: scary, or helps people to really 744 00:25:58,580 --> 00:26:00,819 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think about what's safe for a family 745 00:26:00,820 --> 00:26:02,059 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and safe within a family 746 00:26:02,060 --> 00:26:04,379 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: environment, can help to normalise 747 00:26:04,380 --> 00:26:05,919 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: these discussions. 748 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,739 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And then you can work with families 749 00:26:07,740 --> 00:26:10,019 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to understand what is and isn't 750 00:26:10,020 --> 00:26:11,979 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: okay; because we might think that 751 00:26:11,980 --> 00:26:13,359 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that's obvious, but it's always 752 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:14,219 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: obvious. 753 00:26:14,220 --> 00:26:16,719 PADDI VINT: Absolutely, certainly contacts that we've 754 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,499 PADDI VINT: received... as you say, growing up in an 755 00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:22,019 PADDI VINT: environment where this has always been the 756 00:26:22,020 --> 00:26:24,979 PADDI VINT: norm, there becomes a level of, well, that's 757 00:26:24,980 --> 00:26:26,039 PADDI VINT: just what happens. 758 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,819 PADDI VINT: And particularly within coercive control, 759 00:26:29,820 --> 00:26:32,279 PADDI VINT: where there's maybe been some threats and 760 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,939 PADDI VINT: intimidation and emotional abuse, it's not 761 00:26:34,940 --> 00:26:37,899 PADDI VINT: always as easily recognised for 762 00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:40,299 PADDI VINT: people [that] that's not an acceptable 763 00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:41,539 PADDI VINT: relationship. 764 00:26:41,540 --> 00:26:44,299 PADDI VINT: Very often we have to almost strip it back 765 00:26:44,300 --> 00:26:46,676 PADDI VINT: and look at "what is a healthy relationship" 766 00:26:46,677 --> 00:26:49,579 PADDI VINT: rather than constantly looking at 767 00:26:49,580 --> 00:26:51,239 PADDI VINT: "what's an unhealthy relationship". 768 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,959 PADDI VINT: Because I think really only when you look at 769 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,499 PADDI VINT: what a healthy relationships is, does it 770 00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:58,639 PADDI VINT: almost help you identify areas that 771 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,419 PADDI VINT: aren't healthy or that are potentially 772 00:27:01,420 --> 00:27:02,429 PADDI VINT: abusive. 773 00:27:02,430 --> 00:27:03,878 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Oh, I love that Paddi, I love that 774 00:27:03,879 --> 00:27:06,089 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emphasis on healthy relationships, 775 00:27:06,090 --> 00:27:07,569 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because it's starting with a 776 00:27:07,570 --> 00:27:09,889 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: positive rather than a negative. 777 00:27:09,890 --> 00:27:11,389 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's about mainstreaming 778 00:27:11,390 --> 00:27:12,729 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: conversations about what healthy 779 00:27:12,730 --> 00:27:14,449 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looks like all the time. 780 00:27:14,450 --> 00:27:15,829 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think that goes back to what we 781 00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:17,269 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: were saying about schools, about 782 00:27:17,270 --> 00:27:18,859 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: mainstreaming this in schools. 783 00:27:18,860 --> 00:27:20,599 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's not just about educating, it's 784 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,179 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: about living healthy relationships 785 00:27:22,180 --> 00:27:23,519 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with kids. It's about modelling 786 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,539 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: healthy relationships so that kids 787 00:27:25,540 --> 00:27:27,039 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can see in the way you treat them, 788 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:28,619 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the way you make them feel, feels 789 00:27:28,620 --> 00:27:30,279 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different to something they might be 790 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:31,579 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experiencing at home, which then 791 00:27:31,580 --> 00:27:33,679 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: creates safety and trust, which then 792 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:34,919 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: means those children are able to 793 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,239 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: open up to you. So I think all of us 794 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:38,799 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have got a responsibility to be able 795 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,839 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to model and teach and share what 796 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,479 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: healthy relationships look like and 797 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,639 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: feel like. And I think that could go 798 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,479 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: some way to helping to reduce that 799 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,359 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: shame and stigma to then what it 800 00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:49,939 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looks like to talk about when things don't 801 00:27:49,940 --> 00:27:52,039 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: feel right or don't feel healthy. 802 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,279 PADDI VINT: The key thing for people is to know that 803 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,019 PADDI VINT: there's help and support available. 804 00:27:57,020 --> 00:27:59,319 PADDI VINT: That's what we want to be able to share with 805 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,859 PADDI VINT: people; that they can pick up the phone, they 806 00:28:01,860 --> 00:28:04,699 PADDI VINT: can reach out to particularly the NSPCC 807 00:28:04,700 --> 00:28:07,581 PADDI VINT: Helpline. They can contact us on 0808 800 808 00:28:07,582 --> 00:28:10,479 PADDI VINT: 5000, or they can drop 809 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,070 PADDI VINT: us an email at help@nspcc.org.uk, 810 00:28:14,620 --> 00:28:17,859 PADDI VINT: where we'd be more than happy to 811 00:28:17,860 --> 00:28:21,509 PADDI VINT: support mums, dads, professionals with 812 00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:24,529 PADDI VINT: any of their concerns in regards to 813 00:28:24,530 --> 00:28:27,889 PADDI VINT: this subject or any child protection subject. 814 00:28:27,890 --> 00:28:29,449 PADDI VINT: Lauren, would you be happy to share for 815 00:28:29,450 --> 00:28:31,869 PADDI VINT: listeners how they can reach out to For 816 00:28:31,870 --> 00:28:32,589 PADDI VINT: Baby's Sake? 817 00:28:32,590 --> 00:28:36,649 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, if you visit forbabysaketrust.org.uk, 818 00:28:36,650 --> 00:28:38,709 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: we're available in a number of 819 00:28:38,710 --> 00:28:40,489 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different areas in terms of support 820 00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:42,389 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and there's also lots of resources 821 00:28:42,390 --> 00:28:44,689 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: on our website and signposting for 822 00:28:44,690 --> 00:28:45,359 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: help. 823 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,019 PADDI VINT: Thank you so much, Lauren, for joining me 824 00:28:48,020 --> 00:28:51,219 PADDI VINT: today and talking about this subject. 825 00:28:51,220 --> 00:28:53,339 PADDI VINT: And thank you everybody for listening. 826 00:28:53,340 --> 00:28:54,340 PADDI VINT: All the best. 827 00:28:58,020 --> 00:29:00,379 OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC learning 828 00:29:00,380 --> 00:29:01,779 OUTRO: Podcast. 829 00:29:01,780 --> 00:29:04,279 OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content 830 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,039 OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and 831 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,399 OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing. 832 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,419 OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current 833 00:29:11,420 --> 00:29:14,299 OUTRO: safeguarding and child-protection training, 834 00:29:14,300 --> 00:29:17,259 OUTRO: information, or resources, please visit our 835 00:29:17,260 --> 00:29:19,339 OUTRO: website for professionals at 836 00:29:19,340 --> 00:29:21,791 OUTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.