00:00:01.79 alexei sayle Hello everybody, welcome to episode 85 of the Alexi Sale podcast.

00:00:05.36 Esther So,..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

00:00:10.23 alexei sayle And fuck me, what a week it's been for us to laugh here at Alexi Sale house near the roundabout in Uxbridge.

00:00:20.71 alexei sayle My God, que pasa hombre? We

00:00:24.01 Talal K That's right, hombre. We've had quite the week indeed.

00:00:27.01 alexei sayle had quite the fucking week.

00:00:28.15 Talal K You've become a viral superstar.

00:00:30.70 alexei sayle Viral TikTok superstar. Have actually gone viral now?

00:00:32.34 Esther How of the extra viral?

00:00:34.26 alexei sayle ah which I don't know.

00:00:34.56 Talal K I'd say i I could confidently say...

00:00:34.77 Esther I'd say I'd like to talk to them and

00:00:38.75 Talal K You're viral. You need to go to your your doctor and get checked out.

00:00:39.67 alexei sayle Fuck, really?

00:00:40.01 Esther You need come your doctor get checked.

00:00:40.81 alexei sayle Shit.

00:00:42.55 Talal K There's something really viral about you.

00:00:43.11 Esther not that very viral about you. They've been developing a magazine.

00:00:44.36 alexei sayle I'll be developing a vaccine.

00:00:44.43 Talal K um

00:00:45.72 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:00:46.13 Talal K So to catch our listeners up and hello to any new listeners who've joined because our of our new viral ah condition.

00:00:46.85 Esther to catch our listeners up and hello any new listeners who in, so I'm well, if will then, viral

00:00:51.10 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:00:54.41 Esther issue.

00:00:55.10 Talal K A few weeks back during our live show, you suggested you wanted to do a TikTok dance and then stop dancing and talk about Marxism.

00:00:58.12 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:01:04.59 Talal K And that was kind of the pitch, wasn't it?

00:01:04.64 alexei sayle Yeah. Yeah.

00:01:07.76 Talal K And so on a sunny day last week, we went to your back garden.

00:01:10.68 alexei sayle You actually had to show I had a kind of idea platonic ideas that were one of tick tock tick tock dance was but then you had to show me the reality.

00:01:11.99 Esther idea.

00:01:18.41 Esther We sat in your hut and then showed you something about dances.

00:01:19.58 Talal K Yeah. We sat in your garden and I showed you some TikTok dances and we sat for about 10 minutes.

00:01:23.65 Esther We sat in about 10 minutes and at one point turned him and said, it's kind weird that we're singing.

00:01:24.82 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:01:25.36 Talal K And at one point I turned to and I said, it's kind of weird that we're sitting here looking at a bunch of teenage girls dancing, isn't it?

00:01:31.66 Esther Teenage people are dancing, isn't it?

00:01:32.29 alexei sayle ah

00:01:32.70 Talal K Alexa, we had to both acknowledge the weirdness of that moment, but then, um,

00:01:33.70 Esther I've acknowledged the weirdness. Yeah, we figured out little routine.

00:01:37.43 Talal K Yeah, we figured out a little routine and um to a very, to the, basically I just picked the top trending song of the time.

00:01:41.97 Esther So, basically, I just picked the top the page. So, to try to find out what's in terms of the page. And it's not simply to write the page.

00:01:45.42 alexei sayle yeah said but uh but uh

00:01:45.41 Esther It's not simply to write the page. It's very immediate.

00:01:46.41 Talal K And

00:01:46.60 Esther It's not a time ago. All the same. So, to try to find out what's in terms the page.

00:01:48.31 Talal K ah pertur perur and um got you dancing and talking about marks and we've posted it.

00:01:55.37 alexei sayle Marxism just a basic introduction yeah yeah

00:01:58.22 Talal K Let me give give you a rundown of the stats, Alexi. We did three videos, okay? Part one, part two, part three. All the same song, all the same dance, different marks facts, yeah?

00:02:06.38 alexei sayle yeah yeah yeah

00:02:09.54 Talal K um And on TikTok, the first video has now garnered 275,000 views.

00:02:11.12 Esther And on TikTok, the first video has now gone at 275. The

00:02:16.50 alexei sayle Right, excellent.

00:02:18.19 Talal K The second, this is I know it's not very, ah it's a bit gauche to sit and talk about your views, but this is very new for both of us.

00:02:18.69 Esther second video, know it's not very, it's a big gauche to sit and talk about the views, but it's a very new one.

00:02:23.07 alexei sayle No, no, it's important.

00:02:25.89 Talal K So we have to analyze this.

00:02:26.25 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:02:27.82 Talal K The second video got 96.9 thousand views.

00:02:29.37 Esther The second video got 96.9 thousand views on the video.

00:02:31.33 alexei sayle Right.

00:02:31.74 Talal K So got a bit of a dip there.

00:02:33.41 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:02:34.43 Talal K And the third video, I posted it and it kept, had a very frustrating day because I kept, it kept getting muted and I'd post it again. And it would be muted.

00:02:44.59 Talal K And I was like, why aren't the last two muted? Is it something to do with the song copyright?

00:02:46.68 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:02:47.99 Talal K And then took me fucking a couple hours to figure out that the video we did as a joke, the last one, you gave the longest explanation of Mark's theory.

00:02:48.52 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:02:52.24 Esther that video, it hasn't done. The last one is the longest explanation. Right. That was a little bit a small part, yeah. But because the video was just over a minute you're saying there's a need to be a tool.

00:02:57.58 alexei sayle Right.

00:02:57.56 Esther So then, it's a big chunk the source language, the last bit something.

00:02:58.62 Talal K And that was kind of a joke that the the description was longer than the dance, yeah?

00:03:01.13 alexei sayle Alright. Yeah.

00:03:02.72 Talal K But because the video was just over a minute long, anything over a minute, your music gets muted.

00:03:09.32 alexei sayle Alright.

00:03:09.70 Talal K on TikTok. So I then had to go in and like re-edit it and it's a bit jumpy and it looks almost fake because you're dancing and then suddenly you're talking and then suddenly you're dancing again.

00:03:18.10 alexei sayle Right.

00:03:19.53 Talal K So that one on TikTok has only got 2,300 views.

00:03:24.03 alexei sayle Right.

00:03:25.30 Talal K Embarrassing.

00:03:26.25 alexei sayle Yeah. know I thought I was you sent I mean,

00:03:31.45 Talal K Oh, I'm not done yet.

00:03:32.14 alexei sayle god oh

00:03:33.11 Talal K we We are definitely viral and I'll tell you why. But some of the comments on TikTok have made me

00:03:38.13 alexei sayle to

00:03:38.33 Talal K ah weep with joy. They're like, ah where were you when I was doing my mocks?

00:03:41.58 Esther they're like when i was doing my mom's why can't my social

00:03:42.89 Talal K Why can't my sociology teacher incorporate dance into it? Some of them like, I'm a professor and I wish I knew about this technique when teaching Marxism.

00:03:47.30 Esther Something like, I'm a professor and wish I knew about this. This is how you get

00:03:51.60 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:03:51.91 Talal K ah This is how you get through to the shortest tension span of today's youths.

00:03:52.80 Esther through to a short video. Everyone is so this brand.

00:03:56.61 Talal K Everyone is so impressed with this brand new teaching method.

00:03:57.14 Esther imagining classrooms and things like that.

00:03:59.73 Talal K And i'm I'm imagining classrooms across the country having their teachers do TikTok dances for them.

00:04:01.20 Esther People are saying, I like to go to the community.

00:04:02.07 alexei sayle Yeah. yeah

00:04:05.77 Talal K um People are saying, Alexi, that you ate and left no crumbs.

00:04:07.76 Esther think I do like that.

00:04:10.91 alexei sayle Yeah. that

00:04:11.54 Talal K Any idea what that means?

00:04:12.93 alexei sayle I think it's a quote from Marx, isn't it? It's about the bourgeoisie, would imagine, which is also a rather cruel reference to my weight.

00:04:15.70 Talal K Is it?

00:04:19.14 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:04:20.59 Talal K It's not, it's nothing to do with your weight, sir.

00:04:21.08 Esther not

00:04:22.19 alexei sayle Oh, is it not?

00:04:22.67 Talal K No, it's a new TikTok lingo.

00:04:22.95 Esther um

00:04:23.37 alexei sayle No.

00:04:25.41 Talal K Maybe it is a, ah ah yeah, it means you ate and left no crumbs.

00:04:25.56 alexei sayle Oh, is it? Oh, I didn't know that, you see.

00:04:28.38 Talal K This comes from the drag scene, I believe. A lot of this TikTok does because a lot of people are saying slay king to you as well.

00:04:30.51 alexei sayle ah right.

00:04:34.57 alexei sayle I don't know what any of that means.

00:04:34.87 Talal K And it just means good show, well done.

00:04:36.63 alexei sayle No.

00:04:37.30 Talal K You ate and left no crumbs, like you ate it up.

00:04:39.15 alexei sayle Okay.

00:04:39.38 Talal K You ate the whole scene up.

00:04:41.64 alexei sayle Okay.

00:04:42.08 Talal K and people are telling you that you're slaying. ah This is what TikTok was created for. Fuck me, Alexi doing a TikTok dance in my For You page.

00:04:47.48 Esther Fuck me, Alexi doing a TikTok brand my new page.

00:04:51.16 Talal K what I don't know what this world is, but I love it.

00:04:52.92 Esther don't know what this world is, but love it.

00:04:54.91 Talal K Shit like that, okay? ah

00:04:56.46 Esther Shit like that.

00:04:56.93 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:04:57.05 Talal K Incredible comments. and

00:04:58.44 Esther Incredible comments.

00:04:59.44 Talal K But on TikTok, still only 6,000 followers.

00:05:01.88 Esther But on TikTok, still only 6,000 brands a year.

00:05:03.51 Talal K But here is where the shock twist comes.

00:05:05.75 Esther We're nearly done.

00:05:06.83 alexei sayle ah

00:05:06.98 Talal K ah We're nearly done. We can introduce our guest.

00:05:07.71 Esther We can hit three.

00:05:08.31 alexei sayle Twist. Not to twist.

00:05:11.45 Talal K I posted the videos on Instagram.

00:05:11.81 Esther I posted the videos Instagram.

00:05:13.58 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:05:13.77 Talal K I didn't have that muting problem with Instagram, so the long video is unedited and beautiful on Instagram.

00:05:14.14 Esther I didn't have that beauty problem. The

00:05:18.52 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:05:18.58 Talal K um The first video, 71,000 views.

00:05:20.30 Esther wrong video is not edited.

00:05:21.16 Talal K The second video, 528,000 views.

00:05:21.34 Esther The first video is 71,000 views.

00:05:22.90 alexei sayle Right.

00:05:23.80 Talal K And the third video, 552,000 views.

00:05:25.80 Esther The second video is 528,000 views.

00:05:27.08 alexei sayle Ay, Kamalita.

00:05:29.25 Talal K and the third video five hundred and fifty two

00:05:30.36 Esther The third video is 532,000 views.

00:05:32.93 Talal K thousand view

00:05:34.38 alexei sayle Fuck.

00:05:35.51 Talal K And in the last few days, we've gained 16, 17,000 followers.

00:05:35.94 Esther And in the last few days, it gained 67,000 views.

00:05:42.15 Talal K We now have 22.8 thousand followers on Instagram.

00:05:42.76 Esther I've never

00:05:45.55 Talal K This is the most...

00:05:47.23 alexei sayle Yeah, half a minute.

00:05:47.96 Talal K This podcast was already the most popular thing I've ever been a part of and the most kind of views I've ever seen on anything, you know, and especially that Christmas video we made.

00:05:51.37 alexei sayle Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:05:56.01 alexei sayle yeah

00:05:56.43 Talal K Like, I've never touched anything that has gotten that much attention.

00:05:57.20 Esther Now, I'm in broken that record.

00:05:59.97 Talal K And now i we've broken the...

00:06:00.52 alexei sayle Okay. All

00:06:01.18 Esther That's a six-year-old.

00:06:03.06 Talal K that record for me personally, I know you've you're used to having four to 6 million viewers a week back in the nineties when there were only three channels on telly.

00:06:04.03 alexei sayle right. Yeah.

00:06:08.67 alexei sayle When I was back, only yeah, and back in the 80s and the 90s.

00:06:13.70 Talal K Yeah.

00:06:14.15 Esther Yes, it's a long time for you since, but your radio shows 10 minutes.

00:06:14.25 alexei sayle When you had to watch me, there was nothing else.

00:06:14.53 Talal K But it's been a long time for you since that, but your radio four show does get millions of, but this is fucking new for me.

00:06:17.46 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:06:18.29 Esther This is

00:06:19.69 alexei sayle Yeah, it does. Yeah.

00:06:21.18 Talal K This is over a million views on a stupid or an old man doing a dumb dance in his garden.

00:06:24.62 Esther what you do. This is our million. We're not going to some parts in this garden, it's incredible that

00:06:26.16 Talal K And it's incredible. And I'm blown away. Um, This is encouraging me to do more of this.

00:06:31.31 alexei sayle So Instagram is, yeah.

00:06:33.13 Talal K Have you got it in you to do some more of these, Alexei?

00:06:33.16 alexei sayle Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:06:35.28 Esther we've had blown away.

00:06:35.97 Talal K Tell me your reflections.

00:06:36.39 alexei sayle Sure.

00:06:37.41 Talal K Tell me what you thought about that day and what you think about this new information.

00:06:37.80 Esther Tell what feel about that

00:06:39.67 alexei sayle No, well, yeah, no, I think that, um you know, it's it's very gratifying.

00:06:40.02 Esther It's nice to see them.

00:06:45.41 alexei sayle Obviously, you had me worried there with the TikTok figures because I thought I'd already peaked, really. um You know, the the the the internet is ah is a very cruel mistress in that way.

00:06:54.92 Talal K Mm-hmm.

00:06:55.96 alexei sayle So it's nice to see that for whatever fucking reason, it's impossible to... divine why, but on obviously on Instagram it's still catching fire and, you know, we'll see where, you know, see where that goes, really.

00:07:07.09 Talal K Yeah.

00:07:07.44 Esther Yeah. Every 16 minutes. I mean, I think that it's, yeah, it's, yeah, it's, yeah.

00:07:08.09 alexei sayle All

00:07:08.58 Talal K I think every 15 minutes we're getting another hundred followers on Instagram currently, something like that.

00:07:08.96 Esther And actually, I it's one the, yeah, yeah.

00:07:11.77 alexei sayle right. Okay.

00:07:13.63 Talal K It's crazy.

00:07:14.04 alexei sayle So, I mean, I think that, yeah, I think that, and I mean, yeah it's, yeah, it's stupid, but it's, you know, it's it's obviously stupid on one level and it's ridiculous and kind of, you know, absurd old man dancing on his back patio.

00:07:30.35 Talal K Hmm.

00:07:30.40 alexei sayle Actually, I noticed one of the comments on YouTube said, you know, looks like a nice house for a Marxist.

00:07:37.36 Esther Yeah.

00:07:37.94 alexei sayle And that's it it's perhaps something we can address in later videos, because that's a fundamental misunderstanding of Marxism, that Marxism is not a kind of philosophy of self-delegation, that all Marxism is, is an analysis of history, and then a suggestion for how to how to move the game on, as it were, but based on that analysis of

00:07:53.05 Talal K Yeah.

00:08:00.03 Talal K yeah

00:08:00.69 alexei sayle of class so that the commentator on YouTube, your your analysis is is wrong, comrade, and I think you need a ah ah long um stood long session of self-criticism and possibly transfer to a Labour camp.

00:08:06.31 Esther so yeah

00:08:16.81 alexei sayle um So, ah yeah, no, I think that, um you know, it's interesting to see how we can keep this going, really. I mean, I think maybe, I mean, the first one is just a general, i mean, essentially just a general kind of some nuggets about the what what Marxism is. I mean, I think in the but if we do some more, then I'll tackle...

00:08:38.93 alexei sayle so yeah drilled a bit deeper down into maybe we can either do false consciousness which is where of course we get Marx Marx's great quote that religion is the opium of the people and it's basically an analysis of how

00:08:43.14 Esther and false consciousness.

00:08:54.21 alexei sayle people conspire in their own oppression, really. I think it's a year that really marks, as far as I know, Marx and Engels got there first, and it's as true today, and more true today, in a sense, as it's ever been.

00:08:56.71 Talal K Mm-hmm.

00:09:05.66 alexei sayle So perhaps we can do false consciousness, or we can do alienation, whereas Marx and Engels analysed what...

00:09:10.06 Esther alienation the Marx Marx Marx Marx

00:09:15.36 alexei sayle I mean, i talked a little bit about that, where saying that the work of... in feudalism works their own land, and in... and capitalism has to go to essentially where the capitalist is.

00:09:28.88 Talal K yeah

00:09:28.97 alexei sayle And um we can talk more about alienation that and and about you know the nature of production, really, how capitalism is... you know I mean, the worker makes something and then the capitalist, the owner of the factory, then takes often the large part of the profit that arises from the making of that production and therefore thee the worker, the person who makes that product, is is alienated from...

00:09:54.28 alexei sayle What was our agent calling that? um is ah Is alienated from that from what they make, really. And and so... the the um And it also...

00:10:05.30 Esther and it's also capitalism this system is

00:10:06.43 alexei sayle points out, to you know which is never acknowledged, that capitalism, this system, this economic system under which we live, is a system of exploitation. It is the worker is always exploited, and there are a lot of conclusions that can be derived from that, really, so maybe we'll do that.

00:10:18.75 Talal K Indeed.

00:10:25.90 alexei sayle So either alienation, surplus value, or false consciousness, I think, in the next video, and more stupid dancing.

00:10:26.62 Talal K Well, it's...

00:10:32.47 Talal K Amazing.

00:10:32.71 Esther amazing

00:10:32.82 Talal K And speaking of alienation, I fear maybe we're alienating our guest.

00:10:35.96 alexei sayle Yes, our guest. was just saying, well, first of all, because ah because you're the link had gone into her, it's Esther Monito, but her link had gone into her,

00:10:37.45 Talal K No. No.

00:10:49.99 Talal K junk.

00:10:49.99 alexei sayle junk folder and so I did the basis I think of my um Eddie Izzard style act in a foreign language you know because my French was going to be start off with liberty egalite salon de tay and similarly i so I just said where's Esther but I said it in Spanish which is actually donde esta is that

00:10:50.08 Esther I think that my style acting in foreign language is quite French. Similarly, just said,

00:11:14.16 alexei sayle Where is Donde Esther? Esther.

00:11:16.69 Talal K but

00:11:16.80 alexei sayle So that's my entire Eddie. Anyway, hi Esther.

00:11:20.82 Talal K but

00:11:21.47 alexei sayle Thank you for sitting through our ah wallowing in self-repearlation.

00:11:23.73 Esther No, I enjoyed it.

00:11:25.59 alexei sayle Thank you.

00:11:26.09 Esther And also, just to let you know, eight and left no crumbs is not referenced to your weight. It is 100% down to, it's an expression of when somebody executes something flawlessly.

00:11:37.50 alexei sayle Oh, really? Wow. Well...

00:11:40.58 Esther there

00:11:41.63 alexei sayle Thank you and thank the internet. i thought it was like who ate all the pies or something like that.

00:11:45.55 Esther go. No, that's very different meaning.

00:11:50.38 Talal K it's all dependent on how many it's all dependent on how many crumbs are left that's the the factor that

00:11:50.63 Esther I don't think kids say that nowadays. Kids don't.

00:11:55.12 alexei sayle Yeah, I see.

00:11:55.31 Esther Yeah.

00:11:56.16 alexei sayle Well, um and it's it's very gratifying to hear that.

00:11:59.81 Esther Yeah.

00:12:00.01 alexei sayle I think that's one of the things I think that I've, um, I have contributed to the culture really is that chance, you know, at football matches, you fat bastard, you fat bastard, you fat bastard, which I think comes from my, my TV show, you know, which the opening would always be, somebody would say about me, who's that fat bastard?

00:12:19.11 Talal K Wow.

00:12:19.28 Esther So it's now.

00:12:19.64 alexei sayle ah Not a, not a positive thing to have, um,

00:12:22.52 Talal K You're taking credit for you fat bastard.

00:12:24.97 alexei sayle yeah you can't prove i'm wrong yes possibly yes that's actually that's really good you know you fat bastard but or who's that fat bastard yeah yeah yeah who's that fat bastard

00:12:26.41 Talal K Huh?

00:12:27.72 Esther What? Is that what you're going to have on your headstone?

00:12:35.67 Talal K And it should be a double wide.

00:12:36.17 Esther Now you'll lose some weight.

00:12:38.25 Talal K should be a double wide grave.

00:12:44.62 alexei sayle when i was in um When we were in Hollywood, when my during my briefs, my my failed career in the United States, we went to the Hollywood Cemetery, which is just behind Paramount Studios, and Mel Blanc, who did all the voices of the Looney Tunes characters, is buried there. And his grave zone says, says that that's all, folks.

00:13:06.33 Talal K That's great, yeah.

00:13:06.86 alexei sayle ah

00:13:07.10 Esther oh that's good that's good I don't know what I'll have on mine

00:13:08.10 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:13:12.21 alexei sayle Spike Milligan, of course, wanted to have, I told you ill,

00:13:13.94 Esther yeah that's brilliant told you was sick he had it in Irish Gaelic didn't he on his yeah told you was sick that's

00:13:17.24 alexei sayle yeah

00:13:17.49 Talal K Oh, that's great.

00:13:20.62 alexei sayle did he yeah yeah i don't know well maybe maybe you could think about your gravestone on maybe the listeners would like to think about their own gravestones

00:13:32.97 Esther I invite the listeners think about their own deaths.

00:13:36.48 alexei sayle dwell on their own multitudes let's just take a second to

00:13:37.13 Talal K ah Send them in on a postcard.

00:13:39.84 alexei sayle dwell on our own mortality. It's bizarre that ah the majority of people in this country, when they die, are rendered into the hands of the co-op as well. I don't know what that says about our society.

00:13:52.68 Esther Oh, God, it's so, yeah. Oh, God, there is just nothing, nothing that's out of the grasps of making money, there?

00:13:58.85 alexei sayle No, no, no. Anyway, Esther, welcome to the show.

00:14:02.69 Esther Yes.

00:14:02.96 alexei sayle tell us and Tell us a little bit about yourself. Really, I've seen you at many benefits for Palestine.

00:14:09.89 Talal K and ah

00:14:10.33 Esther but

00:14:11.83 Talal K And for those at home who don't know Esther, if you've had your head buried in the sand, she's an incredible, brilliant stand-up comedian who ive I've had the pleasure of gigging with a lot. And we both kind of started around the same time, isn't it?

00:14:23.88 Talal K And you were like working as a lecturer when you first started, right?

00:14:24.38 alexei sayle But she's done a lot better than you, yeah.

00:14:29.53 Esther I was, yeah. I was lecturing a little bit and then doing stand-up comedy.

00:14:30.75 Talal K And...

00:14:34.70 Talal K And I had the pleasure of seeing you fucking rocket to full on fledged professional comedian and fucking live at the Apollo and all that.

00:14:34.80 Esther Yeah.

00:14:42.76 Talal K And it's and you've got a tour coming up.

00:14:44.71 alexei sayle Yeah. How'd you get on that?

00:14:45.83 Talal K So ah

00:14:47.06 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:14:47.39 Esther I ah do have a tour coming up.

00:14:49.04 Talal K you're quite outspoken about Palestine. So this was a great fit to have you come on the show here.

00:14:54.91 Esther and So, yes, I i do. i do have a tour coming up. And um yeah, it's it's it's called Slag Bomb.

00:15:08.31 Esther um And um it's ah I will be i will be talking a little bit. ah Well, I'll be talking, which I'm trying to do more of.

00:15:19.14 Esther Because my comedy has never been political per se, I'm not somebody who talks about politics in detachment from my own domestic living. So it's a way of talking about the impact of what's been going on when you're here and you have family in the region and how that kind of impacts just everyday daily life, because it's quite surreal,

00:15:43.68 Esther Isn't it? I mean, you've been in that situation, I know, Talal, with the situation in Syria.

00:15:46.52 Talal K Yeah.

00:15:47.76 Esther It's quite surreal when you're here and then you've just got this kind of family who are living in a very, very different situation and you carry ah real guilt as well, don't you?

00:15:56.20 Talal K Yeah. Because...

00:16:01.46 Esther of like, is what is it that makes, what what what kind of life, what kind of world is it where the luck of the ground that you're born on just completely

00:16:01.59 Talal K for For like...

00:16:11.13 Talal K Yeah, it depends like how much danger you're in every day and how much death you see around you.

00:16:11.86 alexei sayle Yeah. good

00:16:14.06 Esther yeah yeah i'm half Lebanese yeah

00:16:14.78 alexei sayle Yeah. Yeah.

00:16:16.64 Talal K You're half Lebanese, of course, Esther.

00:16:18.43 alexei sayle yeah So give tell us a bit more about your, well, how you came to your, well, your family history role and, and how that's affected you and how your road to comedy really, I suppose.

00:16:29.81 Esther so my family history well um my my dad the Phoenicians um uh

00:16:34.23 alexei sayle Tell me other people.

00:16:41.76 Esther So my dad my dad's from Lebanon, my mum's from Gateshead, but my dad was ah essentially a bit of a nightmare.

00:16:52.22 Esther um ah just kept getting kind of like kicked out of schools and various education institutions for just being a ah ah nightmare.

00:17:01.28 alexei sayle in Lebanon.

00:17:02.29 Esther in yeah and then he went to Egypt and just pissed farted about that. He was always very political, always very active and then he ended up ah coming to the UK when he was 14 he got enrolled for his A-levels at 14 because back then no on his own.

00:17:14.64 Talal K Oh.

00:17:18.77 alexei sayle Went with his family, or by himself. Really? Wow, that's it?

00:17:22.48 Esther Yeah because they were like right you're going to England because you've literally caused enough trouble.

00:17:22.72 alexei sayle well so

00:17:27.00 alexei sayle Yikes. what ah can i i mean Which flavour of Lebanese? ah Sunni Chia?

00:17:32.28 Esther he's Sydney yeah um something recently which I've been getting a lot of trolling about which is really weird because I don't I I'm not religious um but I had people following me and then all of a sudden I started getting this I thought you were Christian Lebanese didn't realize you were a Muslim one and I was like okay but like that's

00:17:33.33 alexei sayle Sunni, right? Not that that matters.

00:17:54.36 Esther crazy um but I think people assumed that I was Christian Lebanese maybe because I don't know I don't know ah but the moment I started speaking about Palestine they were like oh yeah a Muslim one was like well Muslim Christian why wouldn't I be speaking out about Palestine

00:17:54.50 alexei sayle There.

00:17:55.45 Talal K It's

00:18:07.86 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:18:10.19 Esther um

00:18:10.27 alexei sayle Anyway, so so your dad came up 14, he was just sent here to do his A-levels.

00:18:10.34 Talal K is

00:18:14.97 Esther yeah imagine it well yeah and well I think back then as well if you just kind of rocked up places

00:18:15.92 alexei sayle How did that work? I mean, was that a more tolerant time, presumably, in a sense?

00:18:24.19 Esther and said here's a letter it wasn't as you know kind of tech Tracy as it is today um and so he ended up doing his a-levels and then he went on to Newcastle to do his degree and um

00:20:14.17 alexei sayle Hello, did you hear that?

00:20:23.83 Esther Yeah, I've just spoken to the observer before coming on here.

00:20:26.77 alexei sayle Oh, right, about the Palestine Action thing, or...

00:20:29.03 Esther No, it's about the, ah because I signed um a letter to for what they called Lockwood Martin. We're having a conference at

00:20:35.76 alexei sayle Lockheed Martin, yeah, our King's Place, yeah.

00:20:37.58 Esther at King's Place so I was one of the that signed so um the Observer just wanted to talk about you know has um has you know the the impact of artists signing um or boycotting

00:20:39.11 alexei sayle Yeah, I just pulled out of it, yeah.

00:20:53.92 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:20:54.50 Esther um and I was just saying to them actually I was like you know it's such a difficult one because and I guess this comes down to a kind of capitalist market. It doesn't matter how high you climb up on on anything because there are so few corporations that are all interlinked and intertwined that own any kind of large space or or any kind of you know mainstream product that you will end up.

00:21:12.90 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:21:17.93 Esther So at the at the end of the day, there is you can't expect artists en masse to boycott because they've got work. People have to pay bills and you'll always find that link. But it's so important that artists are putting pressure on because we are such a huge vocal space.

00:21:30.41 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:21:32.12 Esther So it's um yeah it's been and she said to me she said oh have you lost work and um think i have but i was just like um i can't say for sure but i think i think yes yes yeah yeah but anyway

00:21:43.27 alexei sayle I'm sure you have. Yeah.

00:21:47.10 alexei sayle Uh, yeah, no, well it's, um, yeah, yeah, it's ah it is. It's difficult obviously to ask people to, but ah I think that what it feels like, I don't know, it's too, so many false dawns, but it feels a little like, um,

00:22:03.07 alexei sayle The weather seems to be changing towards Israel. that all those people but like linburg People like Zadie Smith and Salman Rushdie, I don't think they're trying to cover their own arses in a way that they've seen that the you know that they're really the the revulsion towards Israel is so great that they now want to pretend that they condemned it all along.

00:22:20.38 Esther Oh, really? And now they're coming out?

00:22:26.48 alexei sayle Tracy Emin, for God's sake.

00:22:28.68 Talal K ah really i really have to try and not get angry when I hear it.

00:22:28.73 alexei sayle Anyway,

00:22:32.33 Talal K Every time I hear the narrative is changing.

00:22:35.18 alexei sayle yeah

00:22:35.33 Talal K the language is saying, the news is saying, you know even politicians are starting to speak out. It makes me furious because is this like all I think like, is this what it took?

00:22:40.41 alexei sayle yeah where were you yeah this is how many that we know yes yes there is the price yeah yeah yeah i'd be annoyed though if they get all the they get the kudos another ben elton

00:22:44.08 Talal K like this is This is the limit then. Now we know how many dead children. And it just makes me so angry. But it's like, from the beginning, we were saying it's not too late to join the right side and we have to stand by that, I suppose.

00:22:56.67 Esther Yeah. yeah, yeah.

00:23:00.89 Talal K They get the credit, yeah.

00:23:02.77 Esther No, no, no. it's It's the people that put the pressure on but they're the ones who can help make the make the change. And that's why you just need to you just need to say it's not too late. Because the moment the moment we stop seeing each other as human beings is the moment we've completely failed.

00:23:12.40 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:23:17.31 Esther So we have to.

00:23:17.84 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:23:18.35 Esther We just have to. You have to see the humanity in people. Otherwise, it's going to destroy you It's going to eat you up inside and and it will make you, yeah.

00:23:27.15 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:23:27.48 Esther Angerness is nothing but a cancer.

00:23:27.63 Talal K Oh. I love that.

00:23:29.65 Esther And so you've got to just keep...

00:23:32.41 alexei sayle But that's, i mean, that's you're describing the average Israeli, aren't you?

00:23:32.60 Esther This is my...

00:23:36.41 alexei sayle Refusing to see the humanity of a Palestinian.

00:23:38.60 Esther Yeah.

00:23:39.45 alexei sayle and Or the average average Robert Jenrick.

00:23:40.77 Esther Yeah. yeah

00:23:43.81 alexei sayle The average Kemi Badenoch.

00:23:44.23 Esther Yeah.

00:23:46.27 alexei sayle Fucking idiots.

00:23:47.60 Esther God, that Jimmy Carr thing.

00:23:48.08 alexei sayle Anyways.

00:23:48.49 Talal K ah

00:23:50.10 alexei sayle Jimmy Carr, yes, hosting.

00:23:51.30 Esther Isn't that mental?

00:23:53.02 alexei sayle Well.

00:23:53.42 Esther Because everyone was like, yeah, but he must have been paid, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, the man's a million... He doesn't need it.

00:23:58.26 alexei sayle Yeah, yeah.

00:23:59.95 Esther And even like from a kudos status, it's like Kemi Badenoch and Nigel Farage, these are people that you'd be like mocking on eight out of 10 cats. Like what?

00:24:07.35 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:24:07.81 Esther That's so weird.

00:24:09.05 Talal K Yeah.

00:24:09.74 alexei sayle ah He's a, yes.

00:24:10.72 Esther Very weird.

00:24:10.82 alexei sayle yeah Well, I don't know him, obviously.

00:24:12.99 Talal K Just...

00:24:13.27 alexei sayle I met him once. and said He's very nice to me. But, um ah yeah, I don't know. I mean, fucking Maria Eagle as well. I mean, all those fucking people speaking at that thing, you know.

00:24:24.49 Esther Yeah.

00:24:27.13 Esther Yeah.

00:24:28.42 alexei sayle Terrible. Anyway, we were talking about, so you your father, sorry um'm sorry, Linda came in and disturbed me. that So,

00:24:33.89 Esther That's all right. But i love that you said Linda's coming in. All I could hear was the sound of a cat. I was like, i was like, wow, this man's got a really, really intense relationship with his cat.

00:24:42.05 alexei sayle Very intelligent cat.

00:24:43.33 Esther Sorry, i'm going have to stop.

00:24:43.79 alexei sayle Yeah. but

00:24:44.82 Esther Linda's come in.

00:24:47.62 Talal K hello Wilf hello Wilf yeah you were to telling us about your dad doing his A-levels

00:24:48.07 alexei sayle That was Wolf. That was Wolf.

00:24:53.57 alexei sayle Sorry. So you're done.

00:24:53.89 Esther So he, yeah, so he ended up, he ended, yeah, he ended up and going to Newcastle University and, and ah he joined the Communist Society and, fucking hell, I don't know.

00:24:59.40 alexei sayle Right.

00:25:04.75 alexei sayle Right. What year was this? what When would this be?

00:25:10.19 Esther um'm so crap with dates.

00:25:10.32 alexei sayle Well, how was it?

00:25:11.43 Esther I mean, if he was born, 46, 46, was he born 1946? So, I don't know.

00:25:19.02 Talal K I don't know.

00:25:20.40 Esther I can't work any dates out.

00:25:21.55 alexei sayle So, so say was 20 and 66 up before he was he was at Newcastle University before the Civil War in the Lebanon before things got really shitty.

00:25:21.72 Esther I don't know. I'm asking,

00:25:23.10 Talal K Probably early seventy s late 60s.

00:25:23.76 Esther but Let's say 20.

00:25:24.15 Talal K Yeah.

00:25:24.94 Esther Yeah.

00:25:30.50 Esther Yeah.

00:25:31.73 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:25:32.10 Esther Yeah, yeah, yeah. and then ah And then that's where he met my mum doing sit-ins and protests against the Vietnam War.

00:25:37.55 alexei sayle Right.

00:25:39.36 Esther um

00:25:39.92 Talal K ah

00:25:40.72 alexei sayle So 68.

00:25:40.88 Esther Yeah. And so then they went back Lebanon. My sister was born in Beirut. Yeah. and that's when things started to kick off. She was she was born under fire and then ah they moved to Greece where they had my middle sister and then ah they came here and had me.

00:26:03.32 alexei sayle All right. And so what was that experience like?

00:26:05.32 Esther but

00:26:06.75 alexei sayle i mean, it's interesting. and I don't know whether, obviously, this is a ah distorted sample group, but it seems to me a lot of particularly women comedians that I've seen at Palestine Benefits seem to have a similar background to you in that one parent is either Arab or from the subcontinent, Indian, Pakistani, Indian.

00:26:29.38 alexei sayle And one isn't really there seems to be there seems to be some I mean, I might as I said, this is not

00:26:34.27 Esther I think being mixed heritage gives you um a real ah identity challenge and I think it makes you become quite a chameleon and I think it makes you really

00:26:37.69 Talal K you

00:26:40.67 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:26:47.85 Esther wf into lots of different identities and I think that creates a lovely foundation for comedy.

00:26:53.75 alexei sayle Yeah, that kind of tension really. Yeah.

00:26:56.18 Esther Yeah, I think the fact that you're navigating two worlds continuously because you've got two parents who are from two different worlds and then you're born into a third different entity and then you're navigating between the two of them.

00:27:05.20 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:27:07.00 Esther I think it creates a lot of comedy material, definitely.

00:27:07.27 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:27:10.81 alexei sayle I mean, how how was that? How was that experience for you specifically growing up? mean, where did it?

00:27:15.42 Esther um

00:27:16.38 alexei sayle Right.

00:27:16.83 Esther So I grew up i grew up in Essex, but during the time of the Gulf War.

00:27:22.28 alexei sayle right

00:27:22.44 Esther so And I grew up in, I would say, quite right-leaning Tory town. um There was an army barracks. And at the time, obviously, all popular culture was continuously embedding the notion that Arabs are backwards, savage, disgusting, dirty.

00:27:40.74 Esther You know, I i talked about this in one of my shows that I took up to Edinburgh, where I was just showing all the things that you were growing up watching, you know, Inspector Gadget, um Transformers, and how they just all had embedded and images and rhetoric about Arabs that as a child you're just absorbing.

00:27:56.92 Talal K Yeah.

00:27:59.66 Esther So that was not fun.

00:28:03.47 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:28:04.09 Esther growing up in that small town.

00:28:07.75 alexei sayle Well, it's also, it's an interesting, I mean, interesting, it just occurred to me when you talk about an army town that I remember going, we just had a day out in Windsor, you know, which is fine.

00:28:07.69 Esther So even I'm

00:28:17.77 alexei sayle It was a nice day. But then occasionally you'd see some men, young men in the street and you think those people, their behavior and their attitude and their opinions, they are, they seem fucking crazy. And of course they were soldiers.

00:28:30.32 Esther Yeah.

00:28:30.49 alexei sayle And so you, I can't remember who it is. there There was a comic. can't remember who it was now. i think was from all the shots of my generation maybe slightly later. So, I mean, you just, you've got it within your midst, these fucking insane individual. i mean, me I mean, deliberately kind of driven insane in a sense.

00:28:50.46 alexei sayle I don't know whether um that that affected.

00:28:50.48 Esther Yeah, I mean growing up because I never went to so we had like squaddy pubs and so you just never went to those pubs so I didn't really interact that much with the with the with the army guys.

00:28:56.26 alexei sayle Right. Yeah.

00:29:00.81 alexei sayle Squatty wine bars, Squatty bakeries.

00:29:01.55 Esther the Yeah the only squaddy streets, it was actually very similar to Hebron

00:29:06.23 alexei sayle Squatty Pilates studios. Right.

00:29:08.26 Talal K Yeah.

00:29:08.32 Esther Yeah, it was all very divided. Pilato Studios. But I will say this. there was um i was part of the town band. Hello. And the...

00:29:17.60 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:29:18.67 Esther and the ah young guys who couldn't afford musical instruments. If you join the army town band, you were taught how to play an instrument and you were given the instrument play.

00:29:26.99 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:29:30.91 Esther So they would come and play sometimes with the town band and they were the nicest blokes ever.

00:29:34.81 alexei sayle Really?

00:29:35.10 Esther And I did realise that the army, it did make me realise how much the army for working class people can provide.

00:29:35.25 alexei sayle Okay, yeah.

00:29:41.74 alexei sayle Yeah, workers in uniform is the, yeah.

00:29:42.23 Esther But obviously, if you're, yeah, if you're going into, you know, it can provide skills and and a job and security.

00:29:43.99 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:29:48.56 Esther And that's what, you know, it really plays on. But obviously, it's also training people to, to you know, to kill, which has its, it's never natural.

00:29:54.40 alexei sayle Yeah. it it's a good i mean

00:29:56.64 Esther It's never normal. It's never healthy, is it?

00:29:57.66 alexei sayle yeah But that's a fair corrective, really, to my middle-class horror there, being in Windsor for the day, that, you know, you have to point that out, that it is, you know, the armed forces, I mean, particularly the United States, but even here, the armed forces are a kind of route to, you know, for a working-class kid, you know.

00:30:14.32 Esther Yeah, I think just...

00:30:14.92 Talal K That's the selling point, isn't it?

00:30:15.08 Esther so

00:30:16.12 Talal K Always on the TV ads. there's always a selling point. It's like you can use it as a way to get an education, ah build your build your skills.

00:30:18.99 alexei sayle Yeah, but sometimes yeah. Well, it's that, yeah.

00:30:22.33 Esther Yeah.

00:30:24.59 Talal K and Even I've seen army adverts where they talk about life after the army.

00:30:29.12 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:30:29.16 Talal K It's like come back to the world with new skills kind of thing.

00:30:29.70 Esther But that's the thing, is that we the veterans are treated so badly. I mean, i mean the volume now of blokes in, you know, car camouflage gear sat begging in tube stations and stuff, and you're like...

00:30:36.56 alexei sayle Yeah. Homelessness. Yeah. Yeah.

00:30:41.15 Talal K Yeah.

00:30:41.74 Esther These are young guys who would have gone, this is a way out. This is a way of having a little bit of, you know, kind of status and money and all the rest of it. And then they get sent into these. mean, can you imagine, like, you know, where they've been sent and the things they would have been groomed and the things they've seen and that, you know, the way they're kind of pushed.

00:30:56.52 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:30:58.85 Esther and um yeah And I know everybody has the right to make their own decisions, but it's so easily said, isn't it? So easily.

00:31:04.61 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:31:05.30 Esther so and I just think and then they're kind of turfed out and you just think the whole thing is so beautiful. being bleak, the whole war machine.

00:31:14.83 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:31:14.87 Esther You know, you just groom these young people and you shove them in to do violent things. It's going to mess up their mental health. And then yeah all these people are just killed and maimed and tortured.

00:31:20.83 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:31:22.75 Esther And it's just the whole thing. And the only people profiting from it is some a fucking bastard who sat with his hands in his pocket.

00:31:29.36 alexei sayle general dynamic

00:31:29.33 Esther And you're just like, how does any anyone think, oh, this will bring democracy? This is the way to bring peace to a region.

00:31:33.64 alexei sayle yeah Yeah, yeah.

00:31:35.27 Esther No, you're not. You're just destroying human beings en masse.

00:31:37.34 alexei sayle Well, I think, yeah, I mean, move i mean what you're describing really, ah but mean, that's Israel, isn't it? An entire country that is a fucking militarized, insane society, I think.

00:31:50.57 Esther g Do you think that, um because we're starting to see now, I don't know if you're starting to see it on Instagram, the protests that are starting to happen in Yeah, think there's no point.

00:32:03.39 alexei sayle um Yeah, I think there's still very few. my I mean, it's ah perhaps so that that the Israeli public, by and large, part i mean in a sense, because they're lied to, but still seem to be kind of on board with the genocide, really.

00:32:14.44 Talal K That's a slither. It's a slither.

00:32:17.35 alexei sayle I mean, apart from a few brave individuals. I mean, more and more brave individuals, but, you know, it's still a long way to go with the Israeli population, I think.

00:32:20.16 Esther you know

00:32:24.73 Esther I know, like those young people who refusing to join the army.

00:32:27.57 alexei sayle Yeah, yeah, I mean, incredibly.

00:32:28.21 Esther And you just see videos and they're just having the shit kicked out of them.

00:32:31.14 alexei sayle Yes, yes. It's a fucking... but I don't know. Yeah, i just... um Yeah, I mean, but the analogy with, like, the armful... I i mean, I remember years ago, was when I was most working mostly as a writer and going to a poetry reading at the Imperial War Museum, and there was a poet there who has been a former US ranger, who and there was British kind of military brass there, and he'd written this poem, I don't know what it's called, Heir Bullet, particularly...

00:32:46.14 Esther The Imperial War Museum was a power in there, the Irish Ranger, and the British military press there. And the British Prime Minister was a really amazing power. It was about the same.

00:33:01.41 alexei sayle particularly really amazing poem called Here Bullet, just about saying, I'm here, bullet, bullet, come and get me you know here. It's about the kind of experience of being under fire. and But then he suddenly started talking about how in the States there's huge facilities for ah members of the armed forces, both mostly female but male as well, who've been raped.

00:33:22.16 alexei sayle by other members. And he said, also in Britain, don't tell me that you have also got ah epidemic proportions to sexual violence.

00:33:28.60 Esther Yeah, I can imagine.

00:33:30.94 alexei sayle And the top brass got so uncomfortable at this, really. but i think ah But I also think in that, I mean, expanding that out to Israel, I think that Israel is...

00:33:38.11 Esther Well, also, if you're using if you're using sexual you know if you're if you're using um sexual assault as ah as a war tactic as well, then it's going to happen within its own unit.

00:33:49.15 Talal K Yeah.

00:33:49.41 Esther It's not just, you know, you're you're creating a mentality towards violence and rape, which is incredibly skewed.

00:33:49.82 alexei sayle Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

00:33:54.52 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:33:56.91 Esther Yeah, it's...

00:33:57.42 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:33:57.84 Esther ah Oh, God. Oh, God.

00:34:00.08 alexei sayle So we've wandered a long way from your reminiscences of multicultural being brought up falafel sandwiches at school for lunch.

00:34:00.12 Esther oh

00:34:07.40 alexei sayle I'm sorry.

00:34:08.04 Esther I didn't have the same experience. I remember Talal when you used to do your standup about your mum going, I will make her a sandwich so normal.

00:34:15.00 Talal K Yeah.

00:34:15.39 Esther And she was, ah yeah, drizzling the olive oil over your Philadelphia.

00:34:18.98 Talal K Don't give away my material, please. i It's the only material I have.

00:34:20.33 Esther um'm sorry.

00:34:22.26 Talal K I still do it now. Stop, stop. Yeah, no, yeah.

00:34:24.57 Esther Okay.

00:34:25.60 Talal K Mum would make me a Philadelphia sandwich like I requested, but it would be in pita bread with olive oil lovingly drizzled on it. um

00:34:33.01 Esther Yes.

00:34:33.67 Talal K Yeah.

00:34:34.21 alexei sayle so and So you grew up...

00:34:34.42 Esther Yeah.

00:34:34.62 Talal K You didn't have that. You didn't have those packed lunches.

00:34:37.61 Esther No, because, well, my mum did my um pack lunches, but i remember because my mum was a full-time teacher and she had three kids, so she used to get us the pre-packed sandwiches from Waitrose, which I used to hate, because we only had Waitrose.

00:34:47.87 Talal K la, la.

00:34:48.11 Esther Hello. Tesco's came along in the 90s, and we were very excited about it.

00:34:50.62 alexei sayle Really? That's the reverse? Yeah. There. There.

00:34:54.17 Esther But there was only a Waitrose, and to have these Waitrose pre-packed sandwiches, and I used to hate them. I used to hate them. I used to cry and cry and cry because I hated them. ah So I ended up having school dinners in the end, which was... so pretty bleak but no I didn't have didn't have the the Syrian so in lunchbox

00:35:05.95 Talal K For laughter.

00:35:09.60 Talal K foraf

00:35:12.56 alexei sayle so that what was your So what did your dad do? I mean, is he still alive, your father? Yeah.

00:35:16.67 Esther yes ah that I've had somebody troll it because I ran recently the Manchester Marathon for Medical Aid Palestine and I posted a picture of me and my dad and my dad wears the kefir.

00:35:24.79 alexei sayle that

00:35:28.84 Esther He always has worn the kefir. And so somebody wrote underneath going, I'm going to investigate your dad because I want him to be deported. He should be deported. And i was like, well, if you could do it before Sunday, that would be really helpful because he's doing my fucking nothing.

00:35:38.02 alexei sayle Fuck.

00:35:41.18 Esther Yeah.

00:35:43.72 Talal K Oh!

00:35:44.28 alexei sayle Is he still in work? it was a

00:35:45.91 Esther No, no, no, he's retired, he's in his late 70s, but he um he worked and he ah you work ah for um a company that that created but audio engineering, and so they'd go into buildings like United Nations buildings and stuff, and so you know the equipment that translates everything into different languages when someone's speaking, he created yeah he was the audio engineer that that fitted that equipment.

00:35:46.60 alexei sayle Yeah, he retired.

00:36:03.97 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:36:06.03 Talal K Wow!

00:36:06.31 alexei sayle All right, okay.

00:36:10.97 Talal K wow

00:36:11.94 Esther So he went to all the embassies. There's not a country in the on the planet he hasn't been to, that yet i' apart from Israel, but um he hasn't been to that's fitted in the United Nations buildings, yeah, and embassies and stuff.

00:36:22.99 Talal K That's sick. Yeah.

00:36:23.67 alexei sayle That sounds interesting.

00:36:24.42 Esther Yeah.

00:36:24.71 alexei sayle so I mean, i mean you so you were growing up at school, and i mean, who you know we and so how did i guess how well how did your you mixed background affect your friendships, and who did you mix with, and so on and so forth?

00:36:38.74 Esther and It was not... straightforward and there was quite a lot of racist rhetoric um and um even my teacher would call me a dirty Arab so that's a joke no you just be i remember once like an r RE it was i just shut up you like pute your hand down you dirty Arab yeah yeah

00:36:46.69 Talal K yeah

00:36:53.01 alexei sayle As a joke, I mean, like a joke.

00:37:03.06 Talal K Fucking hell.

00:37:03.14 alexei sayle Fucking hell.

00:37:05.67 Esther so it was just kind of commonplace it was just

00:37:06.57 Talal K i Yeah, I had fat Arab, hairy Arab, sweaty Arab but at school.

00:37:13.31 Esther Well, because the word Arab was an insult.

00:37:15.27 Talal K It's the, yeah, it's a four letter word, isn't it?

00:37:16.65 Esther So it wasn't even, it wasn't even, you know, the sweaty, the hairy, the whatever.

00:37:17.40 Talal K Yeah, it's so messed up.

00:37:22.33 Esther That wasn't even, that, you know, was kind of the okay bit. It was the the main, the main weight of the insult was by calling you an Arab. And so when I started doing comedy, i still was like, wow, because I came from this small town where you would almost try and shield your identity somewhat.

00:37:43.20 Esther So when I started doing comedy, those very first few gigs, I kept saying Middle East because, and I didn't, and I wasn't even conscious of it until somebody who was at one of the gigs went, why are you saying Middle East?

00:37:49.51 alexei sayle Right.

00:37:56.39 Esther Like, what does that mean? Like, it it just makes the audience go, well where, you know, Turkey, Israel, Syria, like what, what, what were you talking about?

00:38:02.90 alexei sayle ah

00:38:04.97 Esther And I was like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I've realized I'm saying that. Not so much in London. In London, I'd say Lebanese or Arab. But when I was out of London and I suddenly felt I was in these like parochial areas, which were like the area the area that I grew up in, i would suddenly go Middle East because I was too terrified to say Arab.

00:38:12.35 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:38:18.65 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:38:22.16 alexei sayle Right.

00:38:22.87 Esther So I realized that actually it had really been... embedded in me how much Arab was this negative word. So I forced myself, i was like right, no, I've got to conscious of that.

00:38:33.28 Esther So I forced myself to be speaking more and more Arab culture, Arab dad, our so that you, that's the only way you normalize it. Because then people who may have had the same thinking and breeding that I've been embedded with growing up, and then walking away going, it's just, just family, isn't it?

00:38:47.65 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:38:50.78 alexei sayle And so how did what was your route into comedy then? You went to university and on all that stuff.

00:38:55.99 Esther I went to university and all that stuff. I was a teacher and then I start i didn't start doing comedy till I was in my thirties and i was on maternity leave with two two babies.

00:39:02.10 alexei sayle I was quite... Yeah. Wow.

00:39:04.74 Esther And some would say that I turned ah postnatal breakdown into a career.

00:39:11.52 Talal K Congrats.

00:39:11.64 Esther That's what I would say.

00:39:12.89 Talal K ah

00:39:13.87 alexei sayle Well, you know, whatever works, I guess, in a sense.

00:39:14.59 Talal K ah congrat

00:39:16.67 alexei sayle I mean, ah yeah, you said you were ah you were ah you were a college or you were teaching...

00:39:22.57 Esther I taught, well, I taught all over, but when Talal met me, I was ah lecturing at UEL for a little bit. um And I was on the Foundation Sociology degree there. um and But I taught film and media at sixth form mainly.

00:39:36.95 Talal K Yeah.

00:39:37.03 alexei sayle you in that i was Because I was a college lecturer. Was it the same union, Nat Fahey, the National Association of Teachers in Further and Higher Education? Was that still the union?

00:39:45.34 Esther No, I was in, remember Naphtali, I was, was my union?

00:39:46.72 alexei sayle Nat Fahey.

00:39:50.42 Esther ah union

00:39:53.10 Esther National, no, NUT I was with.

00:39:54.91 alexei sayle Annuity, fair enough.

00:39:56.09 Esther Yeah, yeah.

00:39:56.39 alexei sayle But that's that is quite, because um but I know academia is not what it was, but to be teaching at university, on the university and even sixth form, to be teaching media and stuff, to you know, you get your like holiday and mean will you pay you get holiday pay and a pension, and then to give all that up for the life of the strolling minstrel.

00:39:56.72 Esther Yeah.

00:40:13.56 Talal K Yeah.

00:40:14.77 Esther yeah I know, Alexi, don't.

00:40:21.14 Esther Don't. I sometimes think about sick pain. I'm like, God, isn't it lush?

00:40:26.44 alexei sayle Yeah. Yeah.

00:40:28.41 Esther It's so lush because obviously you're sick, that's it, your money. think, that wife, you know, the other person the

00:40:31.92 alexei sayle I used to think, it's like my best friend and Harry, you know, worked on the buses. And London Transport, they had like a flying club and a fucking, you know, like a rifle club. And, you know, they had extensive rehab facilities for all their drunken...

00:40:47.74 alexei sayle tube drivers and bus drivers.

00:40:49.37 Esther They bloody need it.

00:40:49.55 alexei sayle But the sometimes, yeah, oh, yeah.

00:40:51.99 Esther Can't have loads of drunks just smashing the bus.

00:40:52.30 alexei sayle It wasn't it wasn't it wasn't altruism. it was but it was yeah But I just thought sometimes, you I mean, remember he... it's not you know the remember I remember his garage, it was a more complicated.

00:41:03.61 alexei sayle But, I mean, going on strike because there was no toast in the canteen. And I just think, if you're a fucking comedian, I mean, they like you know, you you don't... the yeah people can complain um this is not um This is not a criticism. It's just an observation that people...

00:41:17.82 alexei sayle you know, get fired and are freaked out about it. a comeut You get fired every night in a sense, don't you, as an entertainer, as an actor, you get fired after a few weeks.

00:41:25.57 Esther you know, get

00:41:27.96 alexei sayle You know, it's the constant insecurity of our lives.

00:41:28.28 Talal K Mm-hmm.

00:41:31.21 alexei sayle We're the ones who suffer the most.

00:41:33.54 Esther you find every 90% thing. Yeah. Do you think that's, that's, I'm just thinking about, um the the whole idea now that cancel culture is rife, do you think it is?

00:41:43.74 Esther Do you think it's something that's effective or do you think it's almost like a bit of a Damocles sword?

00:41:49.73 alexei sayle I don't, I think I'm, I don't, I mean, I'm kind of, you know, the French have a kind of, or the combat, you know, outside of kind of the battle, really, you know, I think I'm kind of all the combat in a sense.

00:42:02.23 alexei sayle I don't know is answer. What do you mean by, well, first of all, let's let's go back to why you, we'll come we'll circle back to that.

00:42:12.25 Esther Okay, sorry.

00:42:13.16 alexei sayle But um ah first of all, let's just, so you gave up your pension and your health benefits and a life of respect to become clown.

00:42:21.62 Esther Yes.

00:42:24.62 Esther Well, don't know teachers are respected, let's be honest, no.

00:42:26.73 alexei sayle Not anymore. That's true. No, it used to be.

00:42:28.79 Talal K Especially media, media teachers.

00:42:29.20 Esther um Especially media teachers. Especially because I was teaching, I was teaching at um a school literally just before I, ah when I quit stand up, I was teaching at school and you would just have loads of students who would just be like, so i can't do your subject because my parents are like, you have to do proper subjects.

00:42:33.92 alexei sayle i would

00:42:48.85 Esther And you'd just be like, okay,

00:42:51.24 Talal K Oh. Fuck.

00:42:53.34 Esther we're not doing, we're not doing your crappy subject. So ah yeah, it didn't have, it probably didn't have respect for, I wouldn't say it had respect, but it was a nine to five.

00:42:59.47 alexei sayle No.

00:43:02.51 Esther i had my weekends off. i had sick pay. I had the holidays and I had a pension. Yes, you are right. You are right.

00:43:08.84 alexei sayle but And then what happened?

00:43:09.66 Esther But I do sometimes think, so I went on maternity leave and had kids, but I do sometimes think now for the money that I earn doing, let's say, 20 minutes at the store, I would have had to have done five hours of shouting.

00:43:10.47 alexei sayle I'm kids.

00:43:21.94 Talal K Sorry.

00:43:25.10 alexei sayle Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, the money is, yeah.

00:43:27.48 Esther So there is that. There is that. um But I, yeah, so I had two small kids. i was on, ah my daughter was not two yet. My son was five months. um And I so did a comedy course.

00:43:41.80 Esther And ah really just to kind of get out of the house once a week.

00:43:43.00 alexei sayle Where, which which one?

00:43:45.81 Esther And, you know, it was the one at Camden Comedy School.

00:43:47.26 alexei sayle Which was the comedy course?

00:43:51.73 alexei sayle Don't know was who took who's the the moving, who's the genius behind that? The moving genius.

00:43:56.69 Esther I can't remember. Keith Palmer, I think.

00:43:59.22 alexei sayle Don't know the gentleman, but I'm sure he's fine.

00:44:02.08 Esther I think with a lot of these courses, what it is, it's just the kick to kind of get you on stage really, isn't it Because I would never have, I mean, I didn't want to stand up.

00:44:06.42 alexei sayle Yeah, yeah, that's right.

00:44:09.39 Esther I was like, my friend wanted to do the course. I was like, I'll just come along. Then it's something to do once a week that is not, being sat at home with two kids.

00:44:17.90 alexei sayle Right.

00:44:18.72 Esther It's something that's, you know, creative and different and a bit exciting. But I think if you're getting in, if you want to get into stand-up, it's quite daunting to just go, just going to go to this local open mic and just stand up on stage.

00:44:29.60 Esther It is quite a daunting experience.

00:44:30.36 alexei sayle Christ, yeah. Yeah.

00:44:31.86 Esther So I think comedy courses are quite a good way of creating a unity with a group of people that you can then have that support and eases you into it.

00:44:35.68 alexei sayle Ease you into it. Yeah.

00:44:40.45 Esther But yeah, I hadn't planned to do stand-up whatsoever, but we did the course, and at the end of the course, we had to do a showcase at Backyard, and

00:44:47.54 alexei sayle I know it.

00:44:48.44 Esther which I did, ah which I drank about four gins before doing.

00:44:54.41 Talal K Uh-huh.

00:44:54.71 Esther um And I think the video is somewhere. I cannot find the video, but when I did it, I am talking much. slowly because I'm quite drunk and I need to get my words out clearly um and that was it the kind of the bug bit me a bit well a lot and then that was it I started I started rocking up at different open mics and then I think it was about a year and a half in I did my first Arabs Not Funny and that's where I met Talal you were hosting yeah rich mix

00:45:08.40 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:45:18.39 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:45:28.69 Talal K Right, right, yeah.

00:45:31.10 alexei sayle Your partner was fully supportive this. fully supportive of this

00:45:35.51 Esther My partner, um I didn't tell him at first. So when I did sit him down to tell him, he was like, thank God, I genuinely thought you were having an affair.

00:45:46.25 Talal K yeah

00:45:50.42 Esther Because I'd been sneaking out once a week going, I'm going to meet my friend for coffee.

00:45:52.16 Talal K It's always evenings.

00:45:54.77 alexei sayle ah

00:45:55.06 Esther And then I'd come back. How's your friend? Yeah, fine, fine. ah When I did my first stand up in the course, the adrenaline so this is and I still have horrific stage fright now but the adrenaline of even standing because being somebody I mean yes I was a teacher but it's not the same you're not having to kind of seek the approval and you know having two children and you know I'm still kind of in that weird post having a baby so everything's like still very saggy and uncomfortable and you feel quite self-conscious and so standing in front of a group of 30 people and telling jokes

00:46:15.57 Talal K no

00:46:15.75 alexei sayle No.

00:46:31.01 Esther I left there and I literally, I just, I just puked all the way home.

00:46:34.12 alexei sayle Man, wow.

00:46:34.59 Esther Had to just keep getting off the tube and puking just because of the adrenaline of, oh my God, I did that. So I'd come in, you know, each week looking a little bit kind of like, and clearly looking very suspicious and edgy.

00:46:47.51 Esther And my husband was like, and okay. And it took me about, I'd say about six weeks before I eventually was like, got something to to, and imagine of all the things he was expecting, he's sitting there going, oh my God.

00:46:56.92 Talal K Confession.

00:46:58.43 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:47:00.09 Esther I mean, firstly, what woman after giving birth five months ago is out shagging about? I don't know, but she would have to have, she would have to have absolute brilliant bounce back ability and ah energy levels.

00:47:05.65 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:47:13.54 Esther But um yeah, but all the things he was expecting me to say, imagine your partner sits and goes, I've started doing standup comedy.

00:47:17.38 alexei sayle yeah

00:47:20.18 Esther It's like, so what?

00:47:21.88 Talal K yeah ah

00:47:24.94 Esther It must have just been like, I've got something to tell you, I've become a unicyclist.

00:47:33.11 Talal K I'm joining the circus.

00:47:33.24 alexei sayle ah

00:47:33.36 Esther Very.

00:47:34.31 alexei sayle It must um have changed your domestic routine, presumably.

00:47:39.64 Esther Yeah, I mean, it did get to a point where it was like, because when you do the open mics, obviously you're not earning. And you have to stay there to the end of the night. And a lot of them are like, you've got to bring a friend.

00:47:50.43 Esther And so my husband was like, you know, we've got two small babies. Fine. You know, do this a couple of times a week. You know, you want a hobby or whatever. But it's getting like, you know, three, four times a week. and you're getting in at like midnight. And then you're up in the night breastfeeding. And then you've got to go to work the next day. Like, this is ridiculous. And he's right. It was. And I was like, no, 100%. You're completely right.

00:48:10.86 Esther But I'm not going to stop.

00:48:12.26 alexei sayle Right.

00:48:14.50 Esther And as soon as I started earning and as soon as it became clear that this was going to be my profession, we then just fell into a routine and and now we're all just kind of used to it and on board with it But it did take a bit of adjustment.

00:48:14.79 alexei sayle ah

00:48:31.55 Esther My God, it did.

00:48:31.65 alexei sayle Yeah. why yeah

00:48:32.51 Esther Yeah. And all the family were just a bit like, what? are you doing?

00:48:35.29 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:48:35.72 Talal K Yeah.

00:48:36.13 Esther ah you You're mine.

00:48:36.81 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:48:36.93 Esther In fact, the only part, well, my dad really was my main supporter.

00:48:41.17 alexei sayle Right.

00:48:41.25 Esther Because if i if my husband was getting bit stressed out, my dad would be like, right, I'll take the kid. You go. Go. Go now. Just go.

00:48:46.50 alexei sayle That's really fantastic.

00:48:46.79 Esther go do it.

00:48:47.50 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:48:47.58 Esther Yeah.

00:48:48.38 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:48:48.87 Talal K Aren't Arab dads great, man?

00:48:49.10 Esther Yeah.

00:48:50.06 Talal K My dad always was like, go express yourself. I'm so proud of you. And I'm like, I'm talking to five drunk people in the pub. goes, that's fine. Go do it.

00:49:01.01 Talal K You know, and it,

00:49:01.08 alexei sayle And that is... sort

00:49:01.75 Talal K and

00:49:01.71 Esther It's so weird because so I get so much trolling. about how if you know how dare you like how could you support Gaza if you went there you'd be murdered you're a half British person they would slaughter you they would do this to you they would do that to you and it's like who do you think I live with like what do you think I've not been you think I've not been there like this perception it like the fact that

00:49:13.68 Talal K Oh my God. Fuck off.

00:49:30.03 Esther It's just marauding guys who are all just out like murdering women and and kind of like refusing to allow any kind of arts into into the community. who

00:49:40.01 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:49:40.64 Esther It's so deranged.

00:49:41.02 alexei sayle Yeah. Yeah.

00:49:43.38 Talal K Yeah.

00:49:43.32 Esther It's so deranged.

00:49:44.51 Talal K They convince themselves of these things to justify what's what's happening out there.

00:49:47.62 Esther And also, of course, there are issues in terms of like, you know, ah misogyny and homophobia. Of course. And there is here.

00:49:59.40 Talal K Yeah, it's everywhere.

00:50:00.06 Esther And also it's like, okay, well, during the 1950s, it wasn't exactly great for women and gays then, but I don't think it's okay to then go and blanket bomb Milton Keynes.

00:50:10.17 alexei sayle Yeah, yeah.

00:50:11.81 Talal K Well,

00:50:11.88 Esther don't think Milton Keynes was around in the 50s, was it?

00:50:14.16 alexei sayle No, not in this term.

00:50:15.77 Talal K um um

00:50:16.60 alexei sayle Hmm.

00:50:16.82 Talal K so when you ah for the you know your comedy, and I don't wanna be a derivative, but you know a lot of your comedy was about your motherhood, children, family, husband,

00:50:28.55 Esther about

00:50:29.85 Talal K ah hairy Arabness as well, a lot of that stuff. And you are, you know, how you finding incorporating today's conflict into and like the today's times into your comedy?

00:50:42.89 Talal K How is that changing your comedy?

00:50:44.10 Esther So, um because talking about things and also it's really well, it is quite hard to make it funny, but I think sometimes the surrealness of a situation. So I describe it So in my show, I'm talking about things like the fact that kids, you know, my kids are very much like preteen now.

00:51:02.12 Esther And so they're in this kind of self-absorbed little bubble world, which is really normal for that age group. And I suddenly remember when I was that age. And my dad would be dealing with, you know, situations back home. But you it just didn't register.

00:51:16.26 Esther It didn't penetrate because your parents are just these heroes, aren't they? It's like, well, yeah, but they're not affected by things. They're not real people.

00:51:23.35 alexei sayle right.

00:51:23.45 Esther They're just put on this planet to protect us, which they will. And they don't have feelings. But then you grow up. And now this situation is happening. And now I've got these... kids who are of a similar age and I'm now like can you just give me a second while I process this and they're just like oh my god

00:51:41.85 alexei sayle but

00:51:42.26 Esther Where's my chicken nuggets? And you're just like, why don't you get it? what so it's that kind of scenario where you're just like, why can't you see what's going on?

00:51:46.76 alexei sayle ah

00:51:50.14 Esther But they can't and they're kids and they shouldn't have to

00:51:52.49 alexei sayle Yeah, no, I guess.

00:51:53.48 Esther and Also talking about um i was I've done a couple of marathons now and I wanted to my first marathon that I signed up for was and before everything had kicked off. And I've done ah lot of fundraising for Medical Aid Palestine. But because it was my first marathon, I really wanted.

00:52:11.93 Esther to run for a charity that my children chose. I thought that'd be a really lovely way of bonding. um And then my my daughter chose sloths.

00:52:23.11 Esther But then I had, but then, you know, a year later, it had all kicked off and I'm now having to deal with the family going, you're fucking running the marathon.

00:52:23.23 alexei sayle Well, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:52:35.07 Esther for sloths whilst the Middle East burns and so you're then like in this in this kind and then they're like okay so now I have to run another marathon because I've got now raise money so I'm now having to run a thousand marathons because I've got to do the right thing so it's these kind of like ludicrous situations or like

00:52:51.18 alexei sayle You run the marison the marathon for sloths, you run it really, really slowly.

00:52:54.71 Esther yeah really slowly i know i was like yeah

00:52:56.07 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:52:56.45 Talal K Great. Good one.

00:52:57.47 alexei sayle Just in the trees, yeah. Somebody else doesn't like that.

00:53:00.75 Esther And they are such a sweet animal and so adorable, but just maybe not the most pressing thing but at that time.

00:53:03.21 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:53:07.65 alexei sayle No. Perhaps not, no.

00:53:09.18 Esther um And also just like kind of, you know, everyday scenarios where people just want to talk to you about it really casually and they don't realise, like, you know... Talal when we did that fundraising gig and it was so lovely because we could all just be really open about how we're feeling but in other scenarios you're just rocking up to work or school pickup and all the rest of it and you're just doing these mundane everyday things and then somebody might just casually be like it's all the news is the family all right and you're just like how do you react to that oh yeah what they're like it's just like it's this it's this surrealness so um

00:53:35.44 Talal K no

00:53:37.54 alexei sayle Yeah. They're like getting themselves bombed by the fucking Israelis. Yeah.

00:53:45.19 Esther So it's, yeah, so it's, it the the my stand-up show does talk a lot about family life, but also now adding this extra layer of like, well, what do you do when you're navigating these two worlds?

00:53:52.24 alexei sayle Right.

00:53:55.51 Esther Also, what you do when you're trying to get your kids ready for school and they're having a meltdown? And then I've got a dad who's there in his kefir going, and today is the day when they decide.

00:54:07.11 Esther And you're just like, I can't, I don't know how to navigate this. I've literally got one having a meltdown because they can't find their freaking...

00:54:10.23 Talal K yeah

00:54:14.15 Esther Paw Patrol pencil case and the other one is screaming in my ear about Keir Starmer's policies and it's just it's just a colliding of two worlds because one doesn't neither one recognises how big the other one's world is to them and very spectrumy as well so it's all very kind of like so yeah it's it's so I would say it's a very um it's a very cathartic hour

00:54:25.77 alexei sayle Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:54:28.27 Talal K Absolutely, yeah.

00:54:34.43 alexei sayle But it's, yes, well, is it's also... it's also

00:54:43.30 alexei sayle No good, well, no good, well good, because it's, yeah, it's, I mean, it's, it's it's a I mean, that's one of the weird things.

00:54:43.29 Esther It's been quite cathartic.

00:54:52.23 alexei sayle I mean, you know, yeah, in a sense, as an artist, times of, you know, terrible suffering for the world, they're also the time when, as a response to that, you are, you know,

00:55:05.06 alexei sayle ah you're most fertile aren't you you know the greatest modernist the greatest painting of the 20th century is a response to the carpet bombing of civilians which is Picasso's Guernica but it's I think you have mixed feelings don't you about that how I don't know i ask i'm talking about myself I suppose that that it's a kind of gift, this catastrophe, but it's also, and we profit from it, but it's also, we have to acknowledge, you know, it's, you feel weird about that, you know.

00:55:33.01 Esther I do i do ah do find as well, and I'm sure Talal will be able recognise this, I think countries where there is so much chaos,

00:55:45.66 Esther it creates an amazing sense of humour.

00:55:49.62 Talal K Mm-hmm.

00:55:49.64 alexei sayle Right.

00:55:49.95 Esther And I think Arabs have a really, really, really good sense of humour.

00:55:52.49 alexei sayle Yes.

00:55:53.02 Talal K Mm-hmm.

00:55:55.19 alexei sayle All right.

00:55:56.35 Esther And I don't often see members of my family cry. I'll see them annoyed. I'll see them shout. I'll see them scream. um But also they're able to really laugh at the absolute hardest of times.

00:56:13.79 alexei sayle right

00:56:14.01 Esther And it there were, you know, there was a time when me and my

00:56:15.06 Talal K Sorry.

00:56:17.64 Esther um cousin on the phone, it was I think it was around November when Lebanon was being hit quite badly. And we rang each other and she just went, hi how are you? And I just went, yeah, how are you? And then we both just started laughing. But we laughed probably for about 10 minutes. I couldn't breathe.

00:56:34.50 alexei sayle Wow.

00:56:35.08 Esther And she was just like.

00:56:38.58 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:56:38.66 Esther You know, what else?

00:56:39.37 alexei sayle yeah

00:56:39.50 Talal K Stay

00:56:39.46 Esther What else can you do? And it's just like it's it's a way. So I do think Arabs have got a particular I think Egyptians actually have probably got some of the best sense of humour.

00:56:48.00 alexei sayle Really? i thought Yeah.

00:56:48.36 Esther I think Egyptians are really funny. They're really, really funny.

00:56:50.70 Talal K ah um

00:56:51.01 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:56:52.47 Esther But I remember when I was in Lebanon, just like the amount of piss taking. It's a real way of showing affection.

00:56:58.83 alexei sayle Right.

00:56:59.30 Esther Like my dad would, I see like my mate's dad's who'd be like on their wedding day, they'd be like, I've watched my little princess. She's so beautiful. And she's all the rest of it. And my dad's way of showing affection is just to whack me around the head and go, you know what?

00:57:11.72 Esther And you're just like, Oh, it's a kiss. What's that Billie Holiday song?

00:57:14.64 alexei sayle You love me.

00:57:16.75 Talal K I think also the the poorer the Arab is, the funnier they are, or the poorer, lower class they come from.

00:57:20.60 Esther Yeah.

00:57:23.23 Talal K Because, you know, you go into the Gulf as you travel eastwards and they get richer and richer.

00:57:26.87 alexei sayle yeah, those guys.

00:57:28.98 Talal K ah They are just sour, serious, moody little.

00:57:29.03 alexei sayle Those guys are funny.

00:57:31.27 Esther Oh that's so true.

00:57:32.10 Talal K Yes.

00:57:33.13 Esther Mind I guess that's true of working class here as well. The kind of like club comedy really emanated from working class people, that's where from.

00:57:36.50 Talal K Yes.

00:57:37.26 alexei sayle Yeah.

00:57:40.67 alexei sayle Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:57:42.07 Esther Yeah, and

00:57:43.99 Talal K But the volume of lower classes in in the Arab world, like everyone is on the fucking same level.

00:57:50.13 Esther yeah

00:57:50.48 Talal K ah And they are they are hilarious.

00:57:52.10 Esther yeah

00:57:53.45 Talal K And there's so much toilet humor, so much body parts and toilet humor.

00:57:56.54 alexei sayle Yes, rosim was seen with my Palestinian friends, so I could never kind of get on board with that. um you ah you you You were talk asking me about cancel culture. I didn't quite understand the question, Eddie.

00:58:07.99 alexei sayle I am circling back.

00:58:08.58 Esther I don't know what I was really asking.

00:58:09.82 alexei sayle I am a professional.

00:58:10.42 Esther I think it's because I was maybe just, I just saw, I only caught up to date today. Somebody said to me about the Andrew Lawrence joke about Liverpool.

00:58:20.37 alexei sayle Yes.

00:58:20.35 Esther And I was like, well, what's going on here? Are we now saying things to get cancelled to become more popular? or is it that, like, what's going on here with comedy now? Because I don't understand. It feels like we're in the weird parallel of saying things that meet an echo chamber, but maybe don't necessarily need Because I was, who was I watching? I think it was like Dave Chappelle.

00:58:41.82 Esther And I remember his older specials would be like, joke joke joke joke joke joke, joke, joke, joke. But now it feels like it's more of a monologue.

00:58:47.69 alexei sayle yeah

00:58:47.87 Esther And then it's like, so we now say things to annoy or to endorse. And if anything, I don't know. i don't know what my question is.

00:58:57.93 alexei sayle yeah no it's well it's yeah no but i don't think there is any particularly simple answer really i mean i mean something like dave chapelle think you're

00:58:58.72 Esther I'm just finding it all a bit strange.

00:59:12.38 alexei sayle Well, I mean, i always say, and I don't, we've we've talked about him before. We've talked about Jerry Sadowitz before, and I don't know whether he can function in today's climate, but there was a thing where Jerry Sadowitz used to, if you ever saw him, used to do the most repulsive kind of humor. I mean, the famous one is, you know, Nelson Mandela, what a cunt, he'll end up low £10 and you never see him again.

00:59:34.88 alexei sayle um And that worked in the 1950s, whatever. But um ah so ah but because Jerry was coming from such a place, you could see that this was a profoundly damaged person.

00:59:49.83 alexei sayle And so he that he was there was ah

00:59:50.68 Esther Yeah.

00:59:53.51 alexei sayle you could see that the hate was was an act it know was not really what he believed, but it was a persona,

00:59:58.58 Esther yeah

00:59:59.14 alexei sayle But it was also, it was, it it was, ah there was a commentary on the on and on how damaged he was and the catharsis of saying unsayable things to a degree, I think.

01:00:11.06 alexei sayle I mean, with somebody like Andrew Lawrence, it's just a fucking nasty person making a nasty fucking joke, really, isn't it? It's no, there's no subtlety there. There's no, um and I i mean, um I tend to be free speech libertarian, really. I think that I don't agree with that, that,

01:00:28.45 alexei sayle I remember Chomsky signed a letter, which was mostly right-wing people then, people like Rushdie and writers.

01:00:28.83 Esther and think, I think,

01:00:42.17 alexei sayle But just demanding free speech really. And it was criticized by a lot of the left. But I think by and large people should be allowed to say you know and anything, as long as it doesn't break the law.

01:00:54.07 Talal K Oh, that's like the Rowan Atkinson and John Cleese opinion as well, yeah.

01:00:57.76 alexei sayle Yeah, I tend to go along with that. although and So I think that sometimes we can, on the left, be overly censorious. This might get me into terrible trouble.

01:01:09.05 alexei sayle But i mean, i I think I am a libertarian to a degree. on that But I mean, Andrew Lawrence just a fucking stupid arsehole. And if he thought that he was going to get away with that, I mean, do you think he wanted the controversy?

01:01:18.59 Esther I don't think he did think that though, did he?

01:01:21.90 alexei sayle No.

01:01:22.03 Esther i don't know I don't know him. i don't know anything about it.

01:01:23.56 alexei sayle No.

01:01:24.03 Esther but I just think, is it and are we now in a place where it's like, it the more the more we've pushed and censored, it's created more people who now want to outrage.

01:01:37.71 Esther So have we...

01:01:37.81 alexei sayle I think that that's certainly true. Yeah. Yeah.

01:01:40.05 Esther Yeah.

01:01:41.08 alexei sayle Yeah.

01:01:41.09 Talal K That's definitely like an alt-right thing is like, yeah, get angry.

01:01:41.45 Esther Yeah.

01:01:44.60 Talal K You know, the the whole legalized comedy kind of thing is like, yeah, you cuck, you snowflake sensitive cucks, get angry, come on. And I'm going to say, and that's like, and they're like almost doing it as a political point.

01:01:53.52 Esther yeah

01:01:59.37 Talal K Whereas coming back to fucking Jimmy Carr, that was his whole shtick 10, 15 years ago was saying the unsayable and just double downing that it's like,

01:02:10.39 Talal K They're jokes. Don't get offended. They're just jokes. They're just jokes.

01:02:14.23 Esther yeah

01:02:14.34 Talal K And I don't think he was being political by doing that stuff. But nowadays, I think a lot of comics do want to ruffle feathers of the soft, snowflakey, lefty, wokey, lib.

01:02:25.94 alexei sayle It doesn't really include the mass of Liverpool fans necessarily. But...

01:02:30.34 Talal K No, but

01:02:31.05 alexei sayle a Yeah, no, I mean, I've never, I don't really quite know what I think, and I've always kind of tried to stay out of that debate, really, so thank you for, yeah.

01:02:38.82 Esther Yeah, no, i don't really yeah I don't really know. I think it's just because it literally, just before I picked up the phone, and someone had just sent me a link and I was like, oh, okay, all right.

01:02:44.92 alexei sayle Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just shit on every level, that kind of gag, badly done.

01:02:50.28 Talal K Well, and Alexi, you were briefly cancelled in Liverpool. We we mentioned it a few episodes ago.

01:02:53.39 alexei sayle I was, i was, yes, we talked about the humiliation of,

01:02:58.37 Talal K and And he said there is no culture there.

01:02:58.37 Esther Why were you cancelled in Liverpool?

01:03:00.08 alexei sayle um ah because so i i well I made some fatuous remarks about Liverpool ahead of the capital of culture. And ah but and that was right i mean I was actually you know i just saying they had a special...

01:03:13.99 alexei sayle The Liverpool Echo local paper on the Saturday published a special supplement all about... Luckily it noticed about my remarks, really, in print.

01:03:25.35 Talal K But then you there is also redemption because you went up there and did an apology tour and...

01:03:29.01 alexei sayle I was wrong. Yeah, I genuinely, ah it was a learning experience for me. I was genuinely humbling and I learned a lot from it.

01:03:36.65 Esther I think as well sometimes we can tell the difference I think that's the thing sometimes isn't it it's like you can tell the difference it's almost like when you hear somebody say something racist or when you hear your nan say something

01:03:46.89 alexei sayle Yeah.

01:03:50.01 Esther um which isn't considered PC now, but you know it comes from no malice.

01:03:52.94 alexei sayle Yeah.

01:03:54.01 Esther It's like, well, that's just a generational thing where they don't know that that language isn't acceptable, you know, or you wouldn't refer to somebody as that, even though you're doing it in a nice, polite way.

01:03:58.98 alexei sayle Yeah. Yeah.

01:04:04.04 alexei sayle No, that's...

01:04:04.13 Esther And you see it, you know, um but there's a difference between that and somebody who's like, oh, you fucking X, and Z. So...

01:04:11.02 alexei sayle Well, i was but i mean I was actually being a prick, but I think the people of Liverpool realised that my contrition was real, which it was. you know I wasn't putting it on. I wasn't being contrite to save my skin, but just because I...

01:04:27.35 alexei sayle I did feel terrible, really, because I had been a prick, you know. So um it was really, it was a really useful experience for me in that sense.

01:04:34.91 Esther but you've been back to Liverpool since

01:04:36.78 alexei sayle Yeah, yeah, no, I'm, you know, i mean, they, the you the law you know, Jesus said, you know, something about, you know, the sinner, you know, I can't remember this precise quote, but, you know, the sinner is...

01:04:46.42 Esther it's got such a gorgeous theatre for comment what's that theatre that we did to Lau is it the Theatre Royal is that what it's called

01:04:52.49 alexei sayle We're all caught.

01:04:52.80 Talal K possibly that was a fun day that's the only time i've been to uh livy pu

01:04:53.13 alexei sayle We're all caught.

01:04:59.62 Esther I do like Liverpool. I do like Liverpool.

01:05:01.36 alexei sayle Oh, yeah, I did like, I mean, my last stand-up gigs were a five-night sold-out run in in Liverpool before COVID, and that's...

01:05:09.49 Esther So where were you, Alexi, when you did your...

01:05:12.23 alexei sayle At five nights, at a place called the Epstein, Epstein, the Epstein Theatre, which closed but is now reopened.

01:05:13.56 Esther Yeah.

01:05:19.42 Esther Ah.

01:05:20.53 alexei sayle It's beautiful room. It's about... think it holds about 500. Lovely. Yeah. Yeah. lovely

01:05:25.26 Esther Nice. Nice.

01:05:27.09 alexei sayle yeah

01:05:27.84 Esther Yeah, they had some nice space. I think it was like the Arab, the Liverpudlian Arab Festival we were up there for.

01:05:32.70 alexei sayle I think i'm ah I was a sponsor of that, but but now they haven't been in touch for about 15 years.

01:05:36.01 Esther ah really?

01:05:38.59 Esther Yeah, i was ah

01:05:39.45 alexei sayle All

01:05:39.81 Esther I was offered to be part of a Debka dancing class and I was like, yep, no.

01:05:42.95 alexei sayle right.

01:05:45.41 Esther I haven't got the spring in my step for that.

01:05:48.47 alexei sayle Well.

01:05:48.70 Talal K Yeah, we were in the Royal court in Liverpool.

01:05:51.02 alexei sayle Well, come on, yeah.

01:05:52.14 Talal K ah Look, we're going to say goodbye in a minute, um but wait, wait, wait, wait.

01:05:53.63 alexei sayle Yeah, well, just tell us about your tour, where you're playing.

01:05:53.72 Esther Okay.

01:05:56.10 alexei sayle What?

01:05:56.40 Talal K I'll ask her that in a sec.

01:05:56.92 alexei sayle Who? What?

01:05:57.78 Talal K But Esther, when we do say goodbye at the end, please don't close.

01:05:58.32 alexei sayle Well.

01:06:02.12 Talal K Don't log out yet. We need to let everything upload before you leave the actual call. We're doing a performative goodbye for the podcast.

01:06:08.28 Esther Okay.

01:06:09.00 Talal K Understood?

01:06:09.03 alexei sayle All right.

01:06:09.86 Talal K So yeah, go ahead, Lexi.

01:06:10.11 Esther Yeah.

01:06:10.82 alexei sayle So Esther, ah tell us where your tour is going and where people can buy tickets.

01:06:15.13 Esther I've got 17 different locations up and down the country. So ah doing ah from Glasgow all the way down to... ah don't know where anywhere is like Hampshire.

01:06:28.97 Talal K you

01:06:29.75 Esther I literally have no concept of geography. I just get trains to places and I'm like, where am I? Ken? And they're like, no, you're in Wales. ah Terrible, terrible geography. It's probably, probably the result of being ah brought up by two people who neither wanted to believe that they were in the situation they're in.

01:06:50.37 Esther So um

01:06:50.58 Talal K I'm going to help you out here. Here we go. Slag bomb. ah Starting in September, I'm going to run you going to Norwich, London, Farnham, Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield, Southend.

01:06:53.90 Esther slag bomb.

01:07:02.38 Talal K And then in October, Exeter, Chester, Edinburgh, Swindon, Bristol, November. You're going to Oxford, Leeds, Glasgow, Fabersham, Winchester, Leicester, Newcastle.

01:07:13.77 Talal K And then in December, Haven't, the Spring Arts Festival, ah January brought Brighton, and then in February, on my birthday, you're gonna be in Guildford, and then Crawley.

01:07:17.02 Esther Yeah, haven't, where's haven't?

01:07:17.80 alexei sayle Hampshire, yeah. Hampshire.

01:07:23.88 alexei sayle Right. Right.

01:07:28.38 Talal K That's the Slag Bomb Tour. Really nice artwork, actually. a Great poster. That's fucking sick.

01:07:34.38 Esther Thanks.

01:07:36.55 Talal K drinking a WKD.

01:07:36.73 alexei sayle Well, thank you. um Well, thank you for coming on the podcast. It was fascinating to talk to you. I think we could have. but let We'd better let you go, really. But there's lots more to unpack.

01:07:46.89 Talal K estaminito.co.uk oh thank you

01:07:46.92 Esther Well, I can just chat for hours.

01:07:48.83 alexei sayle Yeah.

01:07:50.14 Esther Thanks so much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure.

01:07:52.87 alexei sayle Yeah, no, it's been lovely. We really enjoyed it.

01:07:56.24 Esther I think we could safely say we ate and left no crumbs.

01:08:01.37 alexei sayle Which is not a cruel remark about our weight or a quote from Marks.

01:08:06.90 Talal K ah ah it's a whole new thing whole new world you're part of now Lex slaking

01:08:11.77 Esther but Yes.

01:08:15.07 alexei sayle we We pongoed and we pogoed and left no dents.

01:08:15.92 Talal K Slay.

01:08:25.62 alexei sayle We vomited and left no...

01:08:26.03 Talal K I'm gonna put a link to your tour dates in the description of this podcast, all right?

01:08:28.68 Esther Ah, thank you so much.

01:08:32.57 alexei sayle Thank you. Cheers. Thank you, There we go.

01:08:37.10 Esther Ah, thanks for having me, guys.

01:08:38.59 Talal K I'm waiting for Alexei's sign off, he's not said it yet.

01:08:42.56 alexei sayle Oh, bye-bye.

01:08:43.55 Talal K There we go.

01:08:44.34 alexei sayle Sorry, have a catchphrase. Bye-bye.