PB_S2E19_CC_0528 ===

Music: [00:00:00] Hi, episode two 19. We're flying along. Sweet Caroline. Yeah, we're hitting

Sarah Wayne Callies: the, uh, the part of this, not

Music: based, not based on the Neil Diamond song, but we

Sarah Wayne Callies: bubu, but, uh,

Music: we can't now we're gonna get sued.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I doubt it.

Music: Uh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: uh, if Caroline Kennedy didn't sue him over that song, apparently,

Paul Adelstein: I don't think you can do that.

We

Sarah Wayne Callies: were just talking about we spent like the first 10 minutes of the watch of the rewatch. Uh, what did we call it? Our watch party talking about the song Sweet Caroline, which I did not know was in theory based on a photograph. It's, it's not. That was the rumor.

Paul Adelstein: And then, and then according [00:01:00] to the internet net, it was actually about his ex-wife or wife, Marsha.

Uh, and he needed a three syllable name and so

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right.

Paul Adelstein: Sweet Moha. But there was kind of, doesn't

Sarah Wayne Callies: quite work a reference to it in the tape there. Absolutely. Played. Which is like,

Music: he calls her Sweet Caroline being in

Sarah Wayne Callies: bed, touching me, touching you. Oh, well, but also like when he's talking about like, uh, when he kind of indicates the incest, there's a little bit of a, um.

Paul Adelstein: Little song nod. Did you, uh, okay. Hi everyone. Just when

Sarah Wayne Callies: you thought Teabag was the grossest character. Hi. Thank you for being here.

Paul Adelstein: Yes.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, okay. Before we get started, I do, I have a little bit of a mea culpa. We have a wonderful guest on the show. Her name is Cynthia k McWilliams. She played, uh, Casey on the show, which is, she's the, the mother of the Franklin family.

She notes wife and DeeDee's mom. That's not what I have to apologize for. She's [00:02:00] marvelous. Our conversation was fantastic. Uh, we recorded a few days ago, which is why we're in different clothes. We did like a Lady Gaga change like woo. Next thing, what I have to apologize for is when I made the schedule of guests for this season, I thought Cynthia was in this episode.

She's in fact in the next episode. So sorry. You get Cynthia here in an episode. She's not in. I imagine we're all capable of coping with that.

Paul Adelstein: We are, and she's a great guest and it was a great interview. So. Tune into it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Yeah. It was really was a

Paul Adelstein: candle. Fantastic. Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: why did you just show me a candle?

Paul Adelstein: That was the first time. I don't know. 'cause I had it and then I smelled it and then I was like, that's weird. I should probably explain that.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You just picked up Paul, you guys, Paul's alone in his hotel room in Vancouver and he's getting up to Hijinks. Um, also the other thing, we are not in fact sponsored by Smartwater ps uh, not

Paul Adelstein: yet.

Sarah Wayne Callies: The other thing that I [00:03:00] like about having Cynthia on this week is, and this was not as much a plan as it was just kind of about where everybody's schedules landed in terms of doing interviews, having Camille on last week

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And having Cynthia on this week. Um. There's a lot to talk about, sort of, you know, Camille mentioned like being a woman on the show and there wasn't a ton of necessarily writing for us and stuff.

And it's, it was a cool counterpoint, uh, to have those two. Not counterpoint. It was, it was just cool to have the two of them back to back. Um, yeah. And it made me watch this episode kind of differently actually. With that in mind. Um, yeah.

Paul Adelstein: You wanna do the index?

Sarah Wayne Callies: We should do the index. Um, yes. This was the first Patricia wedding, right?

Of the whole season. Uh,

Paul Adelstein: I don't, is that right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. We haven't seen the president [00:04:00] since she was the vice president Season one. I, because there was the voiceover stuff that turned out to be wrong, turned out to be a lot. Oh, the fake voice,

Paul Adelstein: right? It wasn't her, right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. The fake out. I. Um, uh, yeah. Anyway, so, all right, welcome.

Thank you, Patricia. And, uh, take us away. Yeah.

Music: Uh, episode two 19 entitled Sweet Caroline was written by a regular writer friend of the

Paul Adelstein: podcast, oh gosh, Karen Usher, uh, directed by friend of the show, Dwight Little Dwight's

Music: third episode of the prison Break, his second of the season. He would do

Paul Adelstein: five before the end of the series and, uh, against the regular competition in the 8:00 PM time slot.

The episode drew 9.72 million live viewers. That's the highest rating of the previous three weeks and the highest for the rest of the season.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay, uh, the recap. Um. Oh boy. They're like deals on deals, on deals in here. So in the last episode, we left [00:05:00] c Note about to take his own life in order to protect his family as instructed, excuse me, as instructed by Mahome.

So in this episode, the prison guards save him from suicide and c note, uh, finds himself eventually being interrogated by Agent Wheeler of the FBI, who it turns out is working with internal affairs against Mahome. Speaking of Mahome, he finds Sarah fails to make her talk and then releases her, um, so that Lang can follow her.

I guess not releases her, but sort of sets her up in a, in a fake, oh, you got the gun moment. Um, so that's two interrogation so far. But wait, there's more because back with the brothers Michael is interrogated by Agent Kim before President Caroline Reynolds arrives and demands to hear the recording that he has slipped her note and told her he has so over the phone.

Lincoln plays this recording that everyone is so desperate to get their hands on 'em. We realize why. It reveals,

Laughter: oh boy,

Sarah Wayne Callies: an incestuous relationship between the president and her late brother, [00:06:00] Terrence Steadman. I think I speak for all of us when I say ew. Uh, Reynolds agrees to pardon the brothers to keep the tape quiet because even Teabag knew not to hook up with his sister.

Speaking of Teabag, he arrives in Mexico and gets into a fight at the airport, which causes Rey to see him on the tv Rey. Thinks about going to get the Westmoreland money is probably talked out of it by Mion Cruz. Um, but Beek captures Suray instead coming to his house. And so, uh, Suray talks him into the two of them going after the bag.

Well, money we think. And then in a final twist apprentice, president Reynolds finds herself blackmailed not just by the brothers but by the company as well. And she announces her resignation no longer able to obtain a presidential pardon. Michael and Lincoln are now back on the run deciding to disappear once and for all.

Paul Adelstein: And, and may I mention if we, if it doesn't come [00:07:00] up that my, uh, oh, I love this thing. They fight and they at the luggage thing and they fight and then they go through the baggage thing and that doesn't happen. I, I misremembered that they fight on the thing, but it does happen. They don't actually go out and it does hard

Sarah Wayne Callies: too.

And so, no, but it's great. It would be a wonderful, but I dunno, you're making it up. They like come out.

Paul Adelstein: Um, back to the, back to the index. I think that's, I watched that movie again. Oh, you weren't? Sorry. Okay. No, not at all. I thought you were just throwing, 'cause we were saying eighties movies. I thought you were just in volatile stock market news That seems quaint.

Uh, on February 28th, the US Dow dropped over 400 points, whatever, over 3% of the market after China stock market dropped 9%, which is cool between things in US and Chinese markets have been rock solid ever since. And neither economy's in danger of ruining the other one right now. Uh, and outmoded institutions nude.

That also seems quaint. On March 7th, the UK House of Commons delivered a historic vote in favor of holy [00:08:00] elected House of Lords replacing the previous system of inherited, inherited or appointed seats, which sort of makes you wanna run for Lord, right. Run for Lord kind

Sarah Wayne Callies: of does. Um, also, yeah, fun fact. I had an uncle who was a Lord.

Several marriages. What? But yeah. The right honorable Lord John Moore of Lower Marsh. As a matter of fact, he was appointed Oh, sure.

Paul Adelstein: Lower Marsh. Yeah. By,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah. Lower Marsh. Yeah. Well, the upper marsh presumably was taken. Um, yeah, that was just always the weirdest thing to me. I was like, sorry. I have a, I have an uncle in the House of Lords Wild IRIP, uncle John.

He is wild. Speaking of legacies, on March 4th, um, Stephen King's son, Joe Hill, debuted his novel Heart-Shaped Box and it reached the New York Times bestseller list. That debut novel would go on to win the Horror Writer Association's Award for Best First novel. Wow. And also, speaking of unelected older gentlemen, on March 2nd, it was the premier of the Comedy Flick Wild Hogs [00:09:00] starring Martin Lawrence, John Travolta, and William h Macy, which grossed $168 million.

I'm gonna be perfectly honest, um, the things that were happening this week in history were just not that. Exciting. So that's our, that's our index for the week because it was a slow, it was a slow, it's a slow life

Paul Adelstein: week. That's good. It can be very good to have a slow life week in

Sarah Wayne Callies: 2007. Yeah, man. I would give a lot for a slow life week right now.

Um, we'll be right back to talk about the episode.

Laughter: We'll be right back.

Paul Adelstein: Welcome back, welcome back. Um, you mentioned during the episode that you, before we get to Cynthia, that you wanted to talk about the scene with Mahome, where you clock him being, uh, an addict and in some kind of an addict, not in withdrawal, but yeah, an addict. Can you talk about that?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, I mean, as I mentioned, I [00:10:00] was really nervous to shoot that scene with Billy because he was such a talented actor and, and so intense in the way that he worked.

And, um, I. I wanted to make sure I wasn't the sort of sea anchor in the scene. I loved the way it was written because so often without trying to seem ungrateful or anything, but so often women on the show existed to give the men on the show something important to do. And the we, we hadn't really like the, the fact that Sarah on her own had something useful that was character based with which she could try and manipulate Maho.

Oh, not he fails, he manipulates her right back. Um, but also that it's based in her character and based in this addiction storyline that, [00:11:00] you know, we hadn't really connected to a whole bunch that season. You know, she mentions in the train that like. She isn't using and she's proud of that. And obviously there's the addiction stuff, um, at the beginning of the season, which now feels, by the way, the Lance and Sarah stuff currently feels like it was five years ago.

Like, it's, it's wild to me that, that stuff. Yeah. Or in episode 19, and this is the same season. Right. Um, but I, I just, I really liked, I really liked that scene. It felt like a real scene. And there were times, you know, and Camille talked about this and, and I can't remember, I think Cynthia does a little bit too, that like the woman part of the scene can feel a little bit like, I'm just here to get the guy to the other place.

You know, I mean, we talked about this on the, on the rewatch too. The, the scene between Suran and Mary Cruz, where she's like, please don't go after this money. [00:12:00] Um. And there's a lot she could have said in that scene that she didn't, but it's RA's scene anyway. Um, that's kind of, I don't wanna hit it too hard, but I really like that scene between that sequence of scenes between Maho and Sarah because the power dynamic goes back and forth a bunch.

Is your mic okay? I can't hear you all of a sudden. Nope, I got nothing.

It was like talking to somebody when they're, uh, when the phone hangs up by accident, I'm like, I'm just talking into the void.

It was totally fine like 30 seconds ago.

Luke, you can cut all this. I please. And thank you.[00:13:00]

Oh, I think I just heard you.

Wait, are you there?

Paul Adelstein: Hello?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yes, there you go. Hi,

Paul Adelstein: I'm back.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You're back. Did anything change? I'm back. Nothing changed. You are back. You're a little bit quieter than you were before. But's. Okay.

Music: I'm unplugged it and plugged it back in that that's all I did. How's that?

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:14:00] Um, that is it too loud? Appears to have worked.

Paul Adelstein: Is that loud? Is that too loud? Is that good? This,

Sarah Wayne Callies: it's not too loud. This, no, this. I think you're in the green. How this?

Paul Adelstein: Yes. Good.

Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Welcome back.

Paul Adelstein: Alright. Uh, so Luke, you can cut that and then come back here. What I was gonna say about that scene I wanted ask. Yes.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, you don't seem nervous, are you? If you did, if you were, you certainly used it well in a scene that you were probably nervous. My question is, he's not a hundred percent playing you the whole time.

Like he is suffering from his addiction in that moment. 'cause he then lets you get the gun.

Laughter: Mm-hmm.

Paul Adelstein: Right? He thinks. She thinks [00:15:00] she's disarmed him, but in fact he's taken the bullets outta the gun and it's a ploy to have agent.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm.

Paul Adelstein: Harris Follow. Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Lang. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Very Agent Lang. Sorry. Barbie Paris. Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah, I think

Paul Adelstein: he plays, he plays it great.

I think it's both Uhhuh.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, he does. He plays it great. I think it's, it's almost like he gets caught and then figures out how to use that to his advantage.

Paul Adelstein: Uhhuh. Oh, that's right. So that's where that turn would be for him. He's think, oh, I, now I'm gonna play that. I'm, I don't know what I'm doing. She's gonna think she gets the best of me.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right.

Paul Adelstein: Because killing her doesn't really do him any good. He needs Schofield.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, but leaving her alive also doesn't do him any good. Um, but I mean, I, what's interesting I think is that he. Throws her the pill. Because [00:16:00] I think tactic one is can I get her high and can I get the information I want out of her that way?

Which is a sort of passive, I mean, it's not a passive way of killing her, but like, you know, pretty brutal if he knows she's a junkie. Right. And she, you know, pretty brutal. Like she overdosed once. Right. Um, yeah, it's pretty. And you know, I think if I were directing me mm-hmm. I would probably say, Hey, give me a take where when you catch that pill, your, you are a little more flabbergasted that he would take that tack.

Do you know what I mean? There's a little more like, dude, fuck you. Right. You know, like, um, 'cause it's a little bit of what he did to haywire, which is, you know, why don't you jump? Yeah. Um.

Paul Adelstein: But it's not even a, I mean, can, obviously it could kill her, but obviously it is an attempt to get her high to get the information.

It's [00:17:00] interesting.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Can we What?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Can we talk about you on the rooftop? I know we talked about it a little bit. Last scene. Last episode. Yeah. But it's so wild to watch. It's an attempted presidential assassination.

Paul Adelstein: It, it was way more upsetting, like, you know, I did, obviously Kellerman does a lot of violent things and we talked last season about

Cynthia McWilliams: Right.

Paul Adelstein: Killing Adina. That was kind of upsetting and torturing you is kind of upsetting. Yeah. But you know, it's cops and Rob, like, you know, I love acting. I love doing that stuff. That was one of those ones. Where it actually, you actually felt like being above all those people and looking for scope of a gun at them.

Cynthia McWilliams: Oh wow. It

Paul Adelstein: was just like, you know, this is a, it felt very violent and scary and it wasn't even necessarily the political [00:18:00] ramification of it. It was more of a mass shooter kind of feel it. Ooh.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You

Paul Adelstein: know, it was that vulnerability. Um, yeah. And if you didn't, whoever didn't tune in last week, um, we were in Dallas.

We were in downtown Dallas, and visible from that rooftop was where Kennedy was killed. Mm-hmm. So that was just also doubly bizarre.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's bonkers. Mm-hmm. I mean, and also, you know, we could, we could see in the rewatch we were outside the Magnolia Hotel that's downtown Dallas. Um. We didn't lock up a four block radius.

And so my concern would be like if somebody in one of those apartment buildings looks out their window and sees, I mean, a guy in a suit, oh my gosh. With a gun. Like that's,

Paul Adelstein: yeah, that, I didn't even think about that. That could be a

Sarah Wayne Callies: wild, like 9 1 1 call. You know what I mean? I mean, especially now,

Paul Adelstein: I didn't even [00:19:00] think about that.

Well, especially in Texas. Um, maybe not a 1 9 1 1 call. Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: Jesus, you're lucky you didn't get shot. Ugh.

Paul Adelstein: I will say that what I remember, I, I remember it's, you know, they obviously stitch it together in the magic of, of movie making. But, um, I remember so clearly just watching them shoot that from, uh, uh, the arrival.

They had no time

Sarah Wayne Callies: really

Paul Adelstein: to actually pull the car in and do the. The presidential motorcade of that was maybe one take.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Wow. And was it just, I mean, there must have been a bunch of cameras 'cause we got all kinds of angles and

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. There was one up there with me. Yeah. There was so many cameras and they also did a really good job of making it look like there were taking up much more room than they actually were.

Mm-hmm. It was really just in front of the hotel.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, you can kind of bury a camera in the crowd and it feels like there's lots and lots of people Yeah. [00:20:00] Around

Paul Adelstein: and then, and then from above kind of shaky. So you don't, it just feels, you know, like there's a bigger deal going on it. You

Sarah Wayne Callies: know, we're back into the episodes this season that are so big and shooting them in so big eight days.

I wanna say this, I'm almost tempted to say that the stuff I had in the hotel room with Mahon was a ninth day. Um. Uh, because these episodes are really giant.

Music: It must have been. It's fun.

Paul Adelstein: I like shooting things like the thing with, in the hotel room. 'cause obviously you shoot that in order in a row. Mm-hmm.

It's like doing a little play. It's like what? It's probably four scenes. Three. Three. It's one with the brothers and three with Maho, I think long scenes or short series or

Sarah Wayne Callies: something. Something like that. But then, yeah, but that was the stuff on stage. Yeah. Then there was also the stuff that was in the hotel itself, running up and down the stairs and that kind of thing.

But

Paul Adelstein: Right. But I mean, just taking like, even like you and Mahome, there's a beginning in the middle of [00:21:00] an end. It's very much like that day was

Sarah Wayne Callies: four scenes of actors talking in a room, which is nice on a show where sometimes you have a day that's just like, just run across this plaza and now run up these steps and now get shot and, you know, drive this car.

Yeah. Um, um, well go ahead. So the scenes with Patty in Wentworth. So Patricia Wedding, who played, uh, president Reynolds. I had a moment of going, wow, your job right now is to grieve incest, which is an enormously tall order. And one of the things that, one of the things we bump into as actors where you're like, Nope, no idea how this, you know what I mean?

Like, can't think about the time that, you know. Right. What this, my friend told me the story about like

Paul Adelstein: Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: you're [00:22:00] kind of just making it all the way up. Um, it is the only time we get Patty in the entire season. Um, this is actually it for her in the show. Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if she was busy or didn't wanna come back to the show or would, I don't know what that story is.

Wow. But this is, this is all of her in the season. Mm-hmm. Um, and in the rest of the show, um, and. I just was sort of sympathizing with how many emotional gymnastics are required of her in that scene

Paul Adelstein: also. And, and, and all That's such a good point. And, and we talk about that. We've talked about that a lot, um, with, um, between ourselves and with, uh, guest stars and other actors about you show up and on a show like this, you have these like Shakespearean stories to [00:23:00] tell with very little ramp up, right?

Mm-hmm. Like suddenly it is, it's, it's, you know, it's mythic mm-hmm. Stuff

Sarah Wayne Callies: for a character she hasn't played since last season. She doesn't and,

Paul Adelstein: and Right. And on top of that, she's also like a head of state. Mm-hmm. Which maybe that, maybe that actually goes hand in hand. Maybe the, maybe that actually helps because it's so outsized.

That it does feel Shakespearean or like Greek tragedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but she, I thought she did a really nice job of balancing those two things. I thought she was really at her best listening to the tape and then kind of grieving his death.

Laughter: Mm-hmm.

Paul Adelstein: Um, Steadman's death. And then I loved the thing with Lincoln and Michael.

I loved the piece of writing where he, Lincoln says, I wish I could have seen her face. And Michael's like, no, you, yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That was, it was really nicely played. It was really nicely played.

Paul Adelstein: And Lincoln says, yeah, I [00:24:00] do. Yeah. It's like also kind of a study. Don't tell that two, like, was she humiliated to the depths of her soul?

No, I do wish I saw that. Um, it's

Sarah Wayne Callies: a very brother dynamic. No, you don't. Yes I do. No you don't. Yes, I do. Yeah. It is okay. Yes,

Paul Adelstein: yes. No, no, I do. No, it was horrible. Yeah. I, I know. I really, I'm going for

Sarah Wayne Callies: horrible, dude. I was on death.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, I was, I was on death row for 242 days. I also love the specificity. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Um, she said something that go, I would also,

Paul Adelstein: go ahead. No, please.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Patty said something that I wrote down. She has a line that says The power that has taken over this country is like a cancer and it will stop at nothing. This was 2007 friends

Paul Adelstein: and then announces that she has cancer, AER she has a, the malignant, oh, I didn't put that together.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I did not do the [00:25:00] math. Oh, Paul. Yeah. That's great. Thanks for pointing that out. You're a lot smarter than me. There. The audience is sitting there going, oh my God, I can't believe you. Dumbass. Yes, yes, I have cancer. That's funny because I heard that and I was like, oh, she just came up with like the first.

Thing and it reminded me of the West Wing about, you know, should Bartlett have stepped down when he had MS and all this stuff,

Paul Adelstein: um, Ms. Or, or Joe Biden with his, with age. There's that hold to pace. ZI, no, that's just, it's an interesting,

Sarah Wayne Callies: when does the president, when does the president step down and should it be the president's decision?

And if it's not, whose is it? Um, I loved her in that scene actually. I thought it was really nice work. Yeah, I did too. That moment of carrying the weight of the office and the personal

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. You, you said something about how the show is getting these episodes are big. I also, I thought at first when you mentioned it that this thing that's happening, happening with the show, and I know that they try to reset [00:26:00] for season three.

Mm-hmm. But there's this really interesting thing that's happening that one of the things that was so successful about the show, um, in season one or led to helped it be successful was that it was so intimate. And that, you know, you think about mm-hmm. Having to screw a thing in the toilet, that there, there's plot points about the smallest details Right.

Of prison life and about having to get from A to B or whatever it is. And that it's amazing reveal one, that this conspiracy, that it's conspiracy mm-hmm. That it's political conspiracy, that it reaches the highest o mm-hmm. You know, uh, office in the land that their father is involved. It gets bigger and bigger plot-wise and political politically.

Mm-hmm. It, but you, I feel it at this point, starting to teeter under its own weight at a certain point. I mean now, now you have Michael in a kitchen with the president of the [00:27:00] United States having a face off. Mm-hmm. Like it's, you know, the global political implications of it has suddenly become the turns that used to be, is Beic gonna put him in jail cell with avocado, you know, is now.

Is the president going to par? Give us a a pardon or step down there. That's right. Um, and it's, it's a great blow up that they do. But you, I sense, I don't know if it's my, if it's my audience brain or if it's my writer brain saying, you're gonna run out of road soon.

Laughter: Yep.

Paul Adelstein: Like, how do you sustain? Are they gonna go to space?

Like I would, I would always say next season's in space under the sea. Like how, how can it get bigger? And I think what they try to do in season three, if I recall, is they kind of try to reset.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. And I think, I mean, what's interesting as you were talking about that the image that I had in my mind was almost like a Jenga tower where you take pieces outta the bottom Yes, absolutely.

And put them on the top. And all of a sudden you're like, oh God, I [00:28:00] wonder if part of what this does is it resets us because now it's not, we, we've ended the Lincoln versus the vice president who is now the president storyline Uhhuh that is now over. Now it's a question of. Kind of Michael versus the company and that's, these are remaining players.

Like it's almost, yeah. It's interesting because it feels like they're starting to pair down, down the deck, clear the decks two story and, and set it up. Yeah. That's absolutely succinct way of saying it. Thank you. Yeah.

Music: Okay. Should we, uh, should we bring Cynthia in? Should we take a quick break and break and then have our conversation with Cynthia?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, so before we take a break, oh, let's introduce her. Um, let's introduce her because I'm finding it's hard for people to sit through their own introductions. Yes, correct.

Paul Adelstein: Um, Cynthia, Kate Williams, um, she was a baby when she was in the show. She was a very young, it was basically her first job on tv. [00:29:00] She, and she showed up with a whole daughter, a grown, almost like a 10-year-old daughter on the show.

Sarah Wayne Callies: She was very young to have, she was very young.

Paul Adelstein: Uh. And after prison break, she's had a big, beautiful career. Chicago Code in Nashville, 50 episodes of the Real Husbands of Hollywood, Bosch, last day days of Totie Gray average Joe. She's done beautiful work with amazing actors, and she's a wonderful person and a really fine actor.

Um, she's also acting teacher. She's done a ton of voice work and she can pretty much do anything. So, uh, you can tell that after I wrote that bio, after we had done the interview and I was like,

Sarah Wayne Callies: totally fell in love with her. You fell in love with her all

Paul Adelstein: over again. Oh, uh, she's wonderful. I don't think I ever met her when we were shooting, and it was lovely talking to her.

Um, so

Music: let's take a quick break and we'll be back with Cynthia

Sarah Wayne Callies: and Paul. You know what we should do during the break? What, let's change clothes.

Laughter: Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: let's, and you can

Paul Adelstein: change location.[00:30:00]

'cause you're both Chicago actors, right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. And you were ca were you cast as a local when you came on the show?

Cynthia McWilliams: Uh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: remember were living in Chicago at the time.

Cynthia McWilliams: Yes, I was. So, I am a Chicago local. What's funny is that now I'm back in Chicago. I just moved back to Chicago maybe a year ago. Oh, away. Yeah. So I live there now.

Um, wow. Yeah. But that's, I was in LA for 15, 20 years in between. Mm-hmm. So I never remember exactly in my life. What's funny is I lived in LA for forever, but every time I came to Chicago was when I got work. I'd be in LA like, like struggling and trying and, you know, just auditioning and hitting that pavement back when we were really in the rooms and doing the things.

Um, mm-hmm. And I, I just had at the toughest time getting started, but I would go back to Chicago literally kind of like, eh, well, you know. It didn't work. And then I hooked something in Chicago,

Laughter: same exact thing.

Cynthia McWilliams: I said, [00:31:00] Chicago keeps pulling me back, you know? Exactly. And eventually, once I had worked like enough to where I was like, my career is what my career is, and you know, from this point, anything that happens, it's just work is going to be get work.

And then also I just felt like what was most important is that I was walking into rooms or spaces or calls or whatever, feeling happy and, and good about my life. Mm-hmm. And living in Chicago was what I knew would make me happy. Mm-hmm. So, um, I decided that like, yeah, I'm just gonna live where I wanna live.

Um, uh, audition on tape and, and then it'll take me where it takes me. And it took me to South Africa. So.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Wow. I mean, I, I grew up in Hawaii. I was actually born in Michael Reese Hospital in Chicago. You were. But I moved when I, my parents moved when I was a baby, so I was raised in Hawaii, Uhhuh. And the, the mainland part of the US was always a little bit like, hmm.

Cynthia McWilliams: Were you an Army brat too?

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, I wasn't. Oh, interesting. Um, my parents were professors and they just both got jobs at the university. Got it. Mm-hmm. But did you

Cynthia McWilliams: grow up, were [00:32:00] you a military kid? I was. I grew up in, um, well I didn't grow up in, but I was born in Berlin, Germany. Um, okay. So I was born in Berlin back when there was a western east.

I was in West Berlin. Um, my father got out of the military pretty, he didn't make a career of it, so he was out pretty soon. Okay. And I was in the States. Um, we lived in, uh, a little bit on the East Coast, a little bit in the south, and then the Midwest. And I was in Kansas City. Okay. Primarily Kansas City is where my parents are right now with my brother.

Okay. Um, and, uh, and then, so I wasn't far from Chicago and that's how I hop, skipped and jumped over there.

Laughter: Yep.

Cynthia McWilliams: Um, to DePaul. I didn't go 'cause it was close. I just went because, you know, DePaul had a really, um, excellent, uh, theater program. Theater for sure. And then, uh, I just, yeah. When I got out, I, I, I loved that town and it was a great working town.

Mm-hmm. Yep. So you, so Prison break was early. Career. Oh, very early you guys. I was a baby on that show. Mm-hmm. Um, I was oof, I think I was 21. I will never forget that when I got, yeah. I was a baby. I'll never forget when I got cast, maybe 25. I mean, I [00:33:00] was, I was, it was somewhere very, very early. I. It was 21 and 25.

If I did the math, I could sit down and think about it, but I was the young, young, sure. I remember that when they cast me to be, um, little De Dee's mom. Right. For whatever reason. Yeah. 'cause in the first script where they said I was a mom, they didn't have her doing anything or talking. It was just more like, you know, she was there.

In my mind, I assumed baby, she was a baby. Baby. She was a baby. Like, you know, maybe, maybe a toddler, you know? And then when we got to set and I met this little talking walking girl, and she's like, hi, I'm gonna be, and I was like, oh, oh my. And I turned around and I was like, well, how old am I supposed to be?

Laughter: Yeah. That was

Cynthia McWilliams: when I found out that I was in my thirties, I guess. And I was just like, oh, oh, oh, okay. Well that's what it's, and I think from that point on, it was an interesting moment where I realized that how casting saw me, you know, and for most of my career I would, I would go along with that, in that in my twenties I was always playing something sort of, you know, either a mother [00:34:00] or you know, a powerful figure, a doctor, a lawyer, or a cop or whatever.

It was always these authority figures, and I think that had a lot to do. Height, probably one. And then also, um, just my tone of voice. Yes. That voice. Voice. Mm-hmm. Um, but it was interesting because I was a baby. I was a baby. And y'all, y'all were my second, second project, honestly. I did, um, a movie right out of college, um, called, uh, oh Goodness.

El Omar was the original, like the Lakehouse with, um, piano and

Sarah Wayne Callies: Sandra and Sandra Bond. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Yes. He's like dead or there's something about an architect and like, he builds the house there. And, and I worked at the architecture firm Ghost. It was like ghost adjacent. It was a ghost. Yes.

Cynthia McWilliams: It was a ghost love story.

And they, they were seeing each other through time, through a mailbox. Yeah. It was crazy. It was actually based on a foreign film called El Ma, I think. And um, and then they did this redo of it. Oh. Um, but also, you know what else? [00:35:00] It is crazy. I think about this. It's like what? Evan Moss Brock was Keanu Reeve's brother in the in the firm.

Wow. And he was my boyfriend. So isn't that Chicago actor? Like that was insane. Evan Moss, Brock. Wow. Kea Reeves, Sandra Bullock. Chris Plummer. That was my first film out of pop.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Wow. That is a wild first film.

Cynthia McWilliams: And I that a wild first

Sarah Wayne Callies: film,

Cynthia McWilliams: it was a wild first film and I was not like a, you know, by any, I was supporting, you know what I mean?

But I remember I read for like the shopkeeper and then they brought me back and were like, we, we think we'd like to see where something else. And then I ended up reading for Evan's girlfriend who went and she had a lot of fun things to do in the story, but in the end, in the cut and the edit, it was like two scenes.

Um, so I didn't really make the cut, but it was still such an incredible experience. You know, I was in scenes with, you know, Keanu and Sandy and at that time, I mean, at their peak. At their peak.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, those were two of the biggest movie stars in the world, that movie are. [00:36:00] But

Cynthia McWilliams: I mean, there still are, but like, yeah, I'd still be excited to be, I, you know, it was a hundred percent insanity.

And I was so young. I was out of theater school, so I'd never been on a set before. I never had experienced being on location. We shot in Chicago, um, it was for Warner Brothers films, so, you know, it was a huge production. I didn't under, I didn't even know what sides were. I just came to set off book because I was from the theater world, you know, and I was like, I don't even know.

And people were like, do you have your sides? And I'd be like, I dunno what that means. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I learned everything on that set, like everything. And then my next job was prison break. So, so that gets us to really,

Paul Adelstein: that gets us to a prison break questions because, you know, I can't, you were so young and I mean, Sarah and I talk a lot about that show, giving us the opportunity to move basically from theater to film.

Yeah. And learn that skillset. You seem so. Comfortable and confident and you, and, and rock together [00:37:00] like you immediately it's a, it's, you know, we talk about this all the time on this show. I mean, first of all, he's twice your age. Yeah. At least. Yeah.

Laughter: Which,

Paul Adelstein: oh, how? Still looks good though. He still looks good.

You know, that, I know that these, that people come in on that show and they have to have these without giving much time at all. Yeah. These long term, established relationships with people. Mm-hmm. And that you guys immediately, you totally buy it. You like, you buy the phone calls, you buy the relationship with your brother.

Um, it was just really, I mean, the writing is really good, but you really, mm-hmm. Centered it. Well, thank you. You guys are impressive. So good.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, did you do, like, did you sit down over coffee and talk about the history of whatever? Or did you just kind of do your homework on your own and mm-hmm.

Cynthia McWilliams: I think eventually, um, we did, um, you know, talk and, um, go over things, but no, when I first came to set it was definitely, uh, just, you know, I, I was at home studying and getting ready and then, [00:38:00] I mean, I was a, you know, a guest star, so you know what that life is.

It was just, you know, uh, get in here, make your make call time. Get, get in here. We're gonna rush you through hair and makeup and, and we'll see you on set. Um, and, and you know, because he wasn't

Sarah Wayne Callies: in the scenes with you at the beginning.

Cynthia McWilliams: At the beginning, no. Um, that was another crazy thing, right, is that most of my beginning stuff was just him on a phone.

And I remember, um, Kevin Hooks would be like off to the side, like talking on the phone or some other person, whoever would, at least he's a good

Sarah Wayne Callies: actor.

Cynthia McWilliams: At least he's good, right? You right. Oh God. That was another thing Kevin was probably my, ah. I that I, I, for the rest of my career, will be grateful for having Kevin Hooks as my first executive producer.

Mm-hmm. Um, oh, tell me why. He was amazing to me. Amazing. There's honestly this far in my life, I would say there have been times, even in shows where I am a series regular and where [00:39:00] I'm like, there's been times in my career where I have not experienced, um, the level of care and connection that he showed to me as someone so, you know, tangential to the story, really.

I mean, you know, I, I hope that I was in the end, but you know, I mean, we never know what someone's gonna be. Mm-hmm. Sure. He didn't have to give me any energy the way that he did, but he really did. Um, I think he knew I was young. Um. Mm-hmm. And I think he cared, um, about me feeling safe, uh, with Rockman. Um, and also I think as a woman of color, he at least acknowledged that.

And I appreciated that. That was at a time in my career where it was very much like, you don't talk about it. You don't talk about it. Mm-hmm. You just go to work. Mm-hmm. And, and you do the work and mm-hmm. Don't ask for anything special and don't like, you know, very, very much like a, a, hey, hey, no one wants to hear about that.

If anything, just pretend like it's not there. Pretend

Sarah Wayne Callies: like, and if

Cynthia McWilliams: no one else, right. And

Sarah Wayne Callies: if somebody doesn't do your hair [00:40:00] properly, don't say anything. Don't say nothing. You know what I mean?

Cynthia McWilliams: Like, yeah. That was. It was very much like, don't acknowledge any of it. Just do the job. Yeah. And he was very much like, are you okay?

How's hair and makeup treating you? Mm-hmm. Are you happy with your look? Do you feel good about your makeup? You know, da da da. Mm-hmm. This little thing. Nice. And I mean, that was such a big deal and at the time I felt it, but in my career later I really understood it. But even like little things as we went on, I remember just, um, him taking the time to tell me things about camera that like, honestly, I was still learning.

I was still learning. I did not know. And so he would come over to me and he would say like, Hey, just so you know, we're, we're on you right now. This is your coverage. So you know, if there's anything you wanna give, like this is the time to give it, you know, or just, and I, I didn't understand, I mean, I was given a hundred percent every take, which I think you should, but I certainly didn't understand like when camera was moving or when it was time.

I, I was learning all of those. I know what turning around me, y'all. I was just like, I guess we're sitting down now. We're sitting [00:41:00] down. Okay, great. Yep. So he was very great about showing. He would occasionally even let me look at the monitor, you know, Uhhuh, and people don't do that still. Sometimes they're like acting very like, you know, like, I, I just really appreciated, um, the way he.

Included me, um, in a show that I was very much a guest on, but made me feel like I was a part of something. Um, you know, all the way up through rap parties and things. He was, he was, you know, he would check in and be like, you're doing okay. And just, he was very inclusive in a way, in a space that he didn't have to be.

And he, he checked up on me after I finished working. He, he stayed in touch with me. Really? Yes. For, um, probably I would say three to five years after I finished the show. He would just occasionally cool. Check on me, see how my career was going in Hollywood. You know, make sure LA was treating me okay and, you know, that I was just doing all right.

Um, he was just a really great, great ep. Um, and I, I, I will [00:42:00] al a great show. I just will always appreciate, um, that 'cause he set the bar, you know. For, for what it should feel like. And when it wasn't that, it was like, Hey, that's what life deals you. But I knew that like, oh, it could be better, and at least it allowed me to not get, um, you know, jaded or whatever, or like, kind of mm-hmm.

You know, because I knew like, oh, well that's just how this guy is, or this person is, and it's okay. Mm-hmm.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. It's so, it's so important to be shown how it, not just how it is, but how it should be when it's done best. Mm-hmm. It's nice to have that early so that 10 years later you're not like, oh, oh, this is right.

This is like, because I went, I remember having that thing of being like, even with representation, meeting somebody pretty far into my career and being like, oh, I didn't realize you existed in this industry.

Cynthia McWilliams: Right. I didn't realize,

Paul Adelstein: I didn't realize someone could care in this way and still be good at their job and not be a total cynical [00:43:00] kind of attack dog.

And yeah, it's all, all, all those things that you just described about Kevin, I. But in the creative sense, it's really great. Yep. I'm so glad. I've been really lucky.

Cynthia McWilliams: I think like, it's so funny you say that, like d Dan Baron is my agent, um, at what formerly was known as a PA and now as IAG. And he's amazing.

I've been with him for I think, 20 years or something. It's insane. Mm-hmm. Um, I've been with him, I've been with him since the beginning, um, since I moved to LA basically. So basically everything after Chicago, that was, um, it was him and I've had one agent, you know, this whole time. And that's, that's so beautiful.

Really amazing. Um, yeah, that is, and I got lucky, like you said, when I worked with Kevin Hart. Working with Kevin was really great. He was, again, on the rise and at, at the pinnacle of success. And, and before he really turned into a huge, um, movie star, but that was really, he was at the height of his standup comedy.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I was really fortunate to see someone who came to set on time, who knew what he was doing, who, who, who knew [00:44:00] every single crew person's name. Yep. Who never, um, when, when there were long days and we had 300, uh, extras, he made sure the extras were fed or he would call and get a food truck out or, you know, he, he went out and beautiful, engaged with people to keep them entertained and, um, mm-hmm.

He kept humor and energy alive on the set. He motivated the other castmates. Um, he kept our guest stars feeling like, you know, e even though they had no idea what was going on, they're usually not comedians or actors, but he helped them to be like, Hey man, just get in on the fun. Um, he just was a great, and he did it all while he would also take a call from what would soon be his wife and when he would check on his kids in school.

Mm-hmm. And he never didn't prioritize his family, his friends. He just was such a great example of how to balance it all. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well be, you know, because the longer I. Spend working on sets, the more I find that it's actually the number [00:45:00] one, who is the only one who has the power. Yeah. To keep that workplace positive.

Yep. Personally, I think it should be producers, but they don't. Right. Because they're scared of actors. They're It's true. They are. They're scared of actors. They are even, even really good ones are unlikely to turn to an actor and go, if you ever do that shit again. Right. I will hold you responsible for the two hours that everybody, they just don't do it.

You know what I mean? Like, I don't know, maybe you need an old school studio chief. Like, I don't know what it's gonna take, but it doesn't happen. The person on a set who can do it is number one. And if you've got a close cast, it can be your series regulars. But the people who go, we don't do that here.

Yeah. We don't do that here. That was your one. Yep. And now, yep. I'd like you to go apologize to her because I understand she's just a makeup assistant, but she's here every day. Yep. And that. That took me, I, I kept looking on sets for like, who's the adult in the room? Who does that work? Oh my God, [00:46:00] yes. Who is the adult on this face?

It's number one. Yes. It's number one. And often you can, not always, but often you can tell by watching a show if it's a good number one. Mm-hmm. Like, what is this world like? Um, but I wanted, I wanna circle back to something you said about Kevin Hooks, because I think it needs to be said about you too. I can only imagine, and this is not me speaking for hooks, but he had a lot of people to manage.

Mm-hmm. There was a lot going on, and I can imagine, I'm guessing, um, that part of why he took that time with you is because, A, he knew you were really green, and B he knew you were really good. Mm-hmm. Like, I, I can only imagine that the first time they got your dailies in LA they were like. Oh, we have someone we can really work with.

And that was the magic of Chicago in so many ways. Yeah. Like [00:47:00] we had the deepest bench. People would show up for like a couple of scenes and then all of a sudden it would be two seasons later, like you, and it's like, well, they're writing whole storylines around things. Partly because, and this is not anything you can control.

This isn't a compliment, it's just an observation. But dear God, you and Helena looked a lot alike. We did. Like Paula and I were watching and were like, did they send out a breakdown for dimples? We dimples. Yeah.

Cynthia McWilliams: I, I was like, girl is my, like, I was like, if this, it was weird. I was like, this is my future daughter.

Like I, I'm, how did I not make you?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I feel like you guys would both need to check ancestry.com and be like, are we, is there a Yeah, because you, it's such a great fit, but there's. You know, it's interesting because so often in the show, this actually fell on the female characters. Yeah. Mm. What are the real stakes?

Why does this matter? Why do we care about C Note? We care about C note because we see he's a [00:48:00] good man by the father. He is by the husband, he is by the soldier that he's. But it, there was something dramaturgically that you gave the whole show, which is, you know, see note the first half of the season we don't know much about him.

Mm-hmm. All we know is he's the guy who can get anything and then all of a sudden we see you and we see your daughter. Mm-hmm. And we're like, oh my God. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh my God. This is what he's fighting for about him. This is what he is fighting for, this is what he's fighting for. And it, again, that often fell to the female characters in the show, which was really interesting.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I could go on a whole thing about how they were the lowest paid and the least used and mm-hmm. The first killed off and all of that. Mm-hmm. Although, congratulations, you survived. You very well done. I made it. We made it. We made it out. Um, how does it, you made it out. Oh, that actually, random question.

Did they try and get you back for season five and you were busy doing [00:49:00] something else

Cynthia McWilliams: and Not to my

Sarah Wayne Callies: knowledge.

Cynthia McWilliams: Because, I don't know, we all came

Sarah Wayne Callies: back for season five. I was like, where, where is C Note was there, but I was like, wait, you guys ran off into the sunset together? Everything was fine. Where the hell yeah.

Are your wife and daughter? Okay. Yeah, it's

Cynthia McWilliams: possible, but I, I don't, I I definitely, um, I, I didn't say no if that's the, I certainly didn't say no to it. Um, so maybe, um, and it just never got to me. Who knows, maybe that was during a weird period of my life where I was, um, uh,

Paul Adelstein: hi. Hiding in Bali.

Cynthia McWilliams: Yeah. Who knows?

But I, I definitely would've loved to be a part of it for sure. So, no, I don't think they came to us.

Paul Adelstein: Um, okay.

Cynthia McWilliams: Okay.

Paul Adelstein: We, we were asking about, um, you having instant, you know, having to have instant chemistry with Rockman, um, as a husband and, and wife, and you guys have been married a while and, um, et cetera with.

Helena who played Didi, your daughter. Mm-hmm. I assumed as a, as a relatively [00:50:00] new to it, coming outta theater school, you hadn't worked for children a whole bunch. Mm-hmm. Nope. How did you, how did you find that and how did you, how did you get along with her and how did you get along with your parents?

Because when you're, people don't know without, also you're acting with your child, you're also kind of acting with their parents.

Cynthia McWilliams: Yeah. It was honestly my first time also, um, being a mom, that was wild,

Laughter: right.

Cynthia McWilliams: Um, it was really crazy. I remember I got home and the first thing I did was call my mom and I was like, mom, um, I'm a mom to like a whole person.

Like,

Laughter: yeah.

Cynthia McWilliams: Ah, what am I gonna do? So I was talking to her how does go about things? Um, but in general with, you know, what I had, what I did have the, the experience of doing was, um, all throughout, um, high school, college, and my early career, but really just, yeah, all throughout my career. Um, I had, uh, worked with young people, so I've always done some kind of, you know, afterschool matters or, um, theater training [00:51:00] programs or, um, working with, uh, at-risk youth.

And I, this was like, so it was being around young people, um, was in no way new to me. Um, caring deeply for people that I had just met was also not new to me. Um, so if anything, this was exciting because at least this young person mm-hmm. Was someone who was, um, eager to be in this position. My experience with young people had previously been more like people who are a little bit like about the experience and then me having to try to draw them in.

Um, but this one was a young girl who was really excited like me. So if anything, I think I was more like, Hey man. Oh, that's cool. This is cool, right? Yeah, we were, I just would be like, that's a little kid with her. Like, yeah, yeah, we're on tv.

Paul Adelstein: Did you guys have, did you stay in touch? Like did you, I mean, she's gotta be,

Cynthia McWilliams: she's gotta be like a grownup

Paul Adelstein: now, right?

Almost 30. Almost 30. I mean, that's crazy. Could have kids,

Cynthia McWilliams: she could have kids

Paul Adelstein: could, I mean, have mean she's definitely older than you were when you shot it. [00:52:00]

Cynthia McWilliams: I would. Right. That's wild. I would love, it's so wild to see where she is right now. But no, I haven't kept in touch with her, like you said. I think that's more so about parents and like if the parent, like there's other shows I've done.

Um, I did like a, um, a Disney plus movie and also like, um, I used to be on a sitcom with, um, a Netflix and my son on there. Um, his parents and I, you know, because it was a long time that we worked together. We stayed in touch, we got close, and I follow him all the time. And now, um, I'm still friends with not only, I still know him, but also the woman who plays his mom on the next show we talk about how we like share a son now.

Laughter: Oh, that's, oh, that's

Cynthia McWilliams: so cute. But I think, yeah, when you're a little older, a little further in your career, there's a little bit more of that. But I was so young then that I didn't really, you know, um, develop a relationship with the parents as much other than to just be like, yeah, thank you for trusting me to keep your daughter alive while we're on set.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. I, I played a father to the same kid in two different things, uh, 15 years apart. Oh, crazy. Oh, that's [00:53:00] wild. 12, uh, 12 years apart. So he was 9, 9, 10, 11 on private practice. And then 12 years later, 13 years later, I played his father on uh, on what project? On cruel summer. He was one of the leads. Okay. Um, and I remember I hadn't seen him.

We had, we had crossed paths once when he was like 14. We were both shooting in Atlanta and we were on the same like crossing like a stage or something. And uh, I remember I was at a hotel in Vancouver, like right when I arrived and I got a text from him and it was like, Hey, come meet me in the bar. And I was just like, what?

Ooh. Oh no. Like, come say hi. We're we're down having a drink. And I was like, oh dude. That's wild. Yeah. It was so weird. Weird. And he also looks exactly the same. Weird. Just stretched out.

Cynthia McWilliams: That's what I was gonna say. What's crazy about that? So he must, you guys had to favor one another if like, when he's a kid you look like his dad and then you just, that's wild.[00:54:00]

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Cynthia McWilliams: Yeah. So Deedee and I are gonna play, um, older. She's gonna be my younger sister now. Yeah. She's your younger sister. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely have to call her and find out what she's doing and whatever I'm doing next, I need her to be my younger sister.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. I don't know that she's acting. I remember looking her up.

Yeah. We looked her up. We did for this. Where is she? She's so great. Whatever. And there's like no credits really. And so interesting. And so either she's been like tearing it up on Broadway or a lot of

Paul Adelstein: kids. A lot of kid actors are just like, that's it. Yeah. That's enough. They get over it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, they have normal,

Paul Adelstein: you know, they wanna be normal people, which I, yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Which I understand, not, not,

Paul Adelstein: not for me personally, but, you know. Yeah. I can't

Sarah Wayne Callies: relate to that desire, but I I totally hear it. We just did. I

Cynthia McWilliams: I

Sarah Wayne Callies: just

Cynthia McWilliams: think we didn't have a choice. We, we were, yeah. It was clear. It was clear we weren't going to be normal.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I know, and it's possible that, not me personally, you know, but, you know, little Deedee was like, here's the thing, I'm good at math, so I'm gonna go work for nasa.

Like, this is not right. I don't need to be a Carney. I don't need this. I'll see you guys all a Cape [00:55:00] Canaveral. Um, 'cause it, it is something that you have to love. And I think actually being an army brat in some ways really prepares you for mm-hmm. This very peripatetic, like, I'm showing up in a new place and I'm gonna get the lay of the land and I'm gonna meet people and I'm gonna get to know the crew and I'm gonna fall in love with it, and then I'm gonna be able to pull my stakes up and leave and go to the next place and not be overwhelmed by all of that.

Yep. Um. I, Cynthia, we have some fan questions. Yeah, there's just a couple. Okay. Can we,

Laughter: yeah, let's,

Cynthia McWilliams: yeah, let me try to stick these in and like, make sure they stay. Okay. We're gonna, this thing, we're gonna take a quick killing me. We'll

Paul Adelstein: take a quick Okay. We'll take quick break, break. Get in here and see if we can, okay.

Yeah. We'll take a quick break and we'll, and we'll come back with fan questions.

Cynthia McWilliams: Okay. I think we're here. Are we here?

Paul Adelstein: Okay, we're back. Yes,

Cynthia McWilliams: we're

Sarah Wayne Callies: here. Can you hear us? No, we're totally here. Um, no, I wanna start with an easy one, but wait, hold on. I

Paul Adelstein: don't think she can hear us

Sarah Wayne Callies: there. Yes, I can hear you now.

Can hear us? Aha.

Paul Adelstein: Oh good. Okay. Aha.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I wanna start with an easy one [00:56:00] because it's, I think of specifically for those of us who come up in theater. Mm-hmm. It can be weird, um, at Epton. Wanted to go. You went away. What's it like?

Laughter: Uh,

Cynthia McWilliams: okay. There you are. Alright, we're here. Yes. Okay. Everybody's back again. Alright.

Okay. This thing is gonna have so much editing on it.

Paul Adelstein: That's okay. We can

Sarah Wayne Callies: do it. That's okay. Um, so at Kuan, wanted to ask, what's it like watching yourself on tv? Did you watch the show? Did you never watch the show? Did your mom tell you she watched the show and had notes? Like,

Cynthia McWilliams: discuss, um, what's it like watching myself on tv?

Um, it never gets easier, I'll tell you that. Um, but no, I mean, again, I was so young when I did this show, so of course I watched, I watched, um, one because it was exciting. Um, two, because the show was actually really great. I was, I, yes, I did watch the show. I was such a fan of the show. Um, I thought it was so cool.

Um, and it just, this was, this show predated like, now, like all these, you [00:57:00] know, suspenseful, you know, shows with these pieces. It's all, I think, a thing now. There's, um, I feel like this was very groundbreaking at the time. Um, now I feel like there are a lot of shows that have this energy behind it, but the following of the clues and the putting the pieces together and seeing a thing really stretch out over a whole season up at this time, I felt like, um, dramas were more like, we finished it in one episode, we're done.

We move on and kind of repeat the same, you know? Yeah. It was, this was different. I, I loved it and I loved the suspense of it. Um, it felt very cinematic. Um, so I loved watching it. Um, and it was exciting to watch myself. I also, I think, watched so much then because I learned, you know, watching myself then was very much, um, I was learning on the go.

So for every episode I saw I'd be like, okay, okay, I see what worked and what wasn't. And I also remember the moments of what I was doing. And I also learned so much about how editing [00:58:00] changed everything like that. Oh, the editor has amazing, an enormous amount of power as to what the story is and, and whatever I thought I was doing, oh, he's gonna decide.

So that was great. And I also, um, think I just learned how to. Be gracious with myself on camera. Uh, that was a very, uh, when I was young, I had to really teach myself how to not watch with a critical eye. Um, wow. But how to still critique my performance.

Laughter: Can you teach? So I had to learn

Cynthia McWilliams: how to be Can you do that?

Yeah. Right. It's, it's so important that balance. It's so funny now as a professor, I, I teach at DePaul University and, um, as I'm teaching on camera classes. Yes, I know that crazy. Um, I, I talk to the students a lot about how important it is to have, to keep your, um, to keep your inner critic. But to remember to keep it [00:59:00] about that it's an inner critic, right?

That you can't let it consume you and you can't also make the critique about the exterior that it's gotta be that you're critiquing your interior life. Yeah. You are critiquing, what am I experiencing? What am I watching through my eyes? What am I feeling? That critique the interior life. Don't critique your exterior.

Yeah. Because one, it's not, I don't like my nose, no control over it. It's, yeah. And two, whatever we see is not what anyone's thinking. It's just not Yeah. We're, we're, we're incapable of looking at ourselves with, um, the unbiased. We, we just can't, um, so, so just don't do it. But, but it is important that we keep critiquing that performance.

So what we can't do also is I don't like when people go, well, I can't watch myself, so I just don't, and I'm like, well, but then you're robbing yourself of an opportunity to learn from the best poss. Like you have got to be the best person you could learn from. Yeah. We learn from other performers.

Interesting. But watching yourself, no one's gonna have the face. You have the, the mannerisms, you have the, the, the energy. Like you, you need to learn from [01:00:00] yourself. Yes, it's great to learn from your partners, your seed partners and other performers you admire. But if you can't learn from yourself, I don't know.

I think that's dangerous. I think we have to, can I take a class to set that aside?

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Seriously.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I would like to take your class. I would too. I have never been to DePaul University. I wanna take your class. Coming on it. Okay. I wanna follow up on this then. Um, what was, because this was early enough in your career, do you remember the first moment that somebody recognized you?

Paul Adelstein: Ooh. Oh, um, and was it from pri, was it from Prison Break or was it from Lake House? I mean, lake.

Cynthia McWilliams: Oh God. It was definitely from prison break guys. I'm gonna tell you, this is about to be okay. This is so much dish that you're gonna determine whether or not you wanna keep this in the story, okay? Right. By the way,

Sarah Wayne Callies: you can also be in charge of that.

You can text later. I'm gonna tell

Cynthia McWilliams: you. I mean, it's really gonna be about, do you think this is for the people? Okay, so I'm still here. Oh my, so long ago I was married, okay? Mm-hmm. The man I [01:01:00] was married to before I married him was my boyfriend in college. Mm-hmm. During college, he got into a little bit of trouble with the law.

Mm-hmm. So he went to jail. Oh. So I stayed with him and I went to go visit him in jail regularly. Um, I was living in Chicago. He was, uh, in Wisconsin at the time. Uh, eventually he got moved to Terra. No, he was at Terra Hu Indiana. And he, anyway, he got moved to Ohio, but he was close by, so I would go up every weekend and go see him.

Y'all. I was a whole actress. A whole actress living a whole, like having a whole life. We've

Sarah Wayne Callies: all visited people we love in prison, honey, that is not, and I would take.

Paul Adelstein: You're such a dedicated actor that you're like, I need a boyfriend who's gonna go to prison.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You had straight method. I didn't know.

Cynthia McWilliams: Method I didn't even know was coming, but something in my spirit.

Yeah, no. So my boyfriend was in jail, uh, so this was before he was even my husband, but uh, he was in jail and I went to go visit him. So the first person that recognized me from prison break [01:02:00] was one of the guards at the jail.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That is amazing. Were they like,

Cynthia McWilliams: were they like

Paul Adelstein: not, were they like, what the fuck is going on? What, what's happening right now?

Cynthia McWilliams: Yes. They were like, oh S Like, they were making jokes and they were like, oh She really, she really acting. This is like, what did they think? This is a method actor right here.

And I was just standing there like, okay, well, alright, has everyone had a good time? Would you like to, can I, can I go through the body now? I'd like to go body. So funny. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um,

Cynthia McWilliams: could you check my bag? Thank you. That right.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's potentially the best. That's potentially the best Prison break fan encounter.

I've heard that could also

Paul Adelstein: be the best first to recognition story ever.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Yeah. God, Do You Remember The First Time Someone Recognized You From Prison Break That is a

Cynthia McWilliams: really

Sarah Wayne Callies: cool, literally the

Cynthia McWilliams: dude checking me in through the full on like, you know, the scanning machine to the actual prison literally was like, Hey, aren't you a [01:03:00] prison break?

Are you seeing us wife? Yo, we the guys, we watched that show. That's crazy. Wow.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Which in and of itself was wild. We were talking, I think it was to, to Reggie or something a couple weeks ago, and it was like, could you believe they aired that show in prison? It was,

Cynthia McWilliams: yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right. And there's a part of me that's like, should,

Paul Adelstein: should, you don't think

Cynthia McWilliams: that would trigger

Paul Adelstein: some people, people or something?

I mean, people, people are gonna be like, I, I wish I had the plans to the.

Cynthia McWilliams: Right.

Paul Adelstein: Prison. Right. Maybe it was

Cynthia McWilliams: about showing them that like if you trying to break out of prison, it needs to be, this detail needs to be this. So I dunno if any of you are, if you haven't completely covered yourself,

Sarah Wayne Callies: if you haven't done all this, you're not, you're not ready.

You're not ready, you're

Paul Adelstein: not ready. Do you have a gen, do you have a genius brother who's coming in here to get you? Because otherwise, because

Cynthia McWilliams: otherwise you

Paul Adelstein: just, otherwise you're the dumb guy. You're the dumb guy that gets into fights. Otherwise you're not like, you're gonna get killed by the mob guy or by these guys or by the, yeah.

Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: by the way. 'cause you're not a main character. Like you're [01:04:00] right. You're now you're a guest star and that doesn't,

Cynthia McWilliams: it was to let them know, honey, most of you are day players, just to be clear.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. And they don't and, and it doesn't off and often it doesn't work out well for them.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. No, my Lord. Um.

Okay. I feel like we have time for one more question. Yes. But that was, God, that was the best answer in the entire, entire world. That's, that's a way, um, oh, I just wanna read this to you because I think you'll relate to it. It's not even a question, but somebody at Jess Pitzer wrote, she goes, this is not a question, but I watched the show completely differently now as a married mom than I watched it 20 years ago.

And I keep finding myself moved to tears more than once this time around by the Franklin family. Aw. I think Casey has some of the hardest decisions to make in the series. Um, but that, you know, that's interesting too, in that we're coming back to this show. Mm-hmm. I'm watching, I mean, like you, I was way younger than my character.

Mm-hmm. You know, like I was [01:05:00] 26 or 27 when I was cast, and I was like, so sorry. I'm an MD who's worked for Doctors Without Borders. Like you were genius. Okay. You, yeah. But like you, because I think of my voice. Mm-hmm. I never played under 30. Yeah. But I mean, they, they eventually made Dr. Sarah like 28 or something.

'cause they're like, oh, that's weird. But I mean, yep. Never me neither. I, I

Cynthia McWilliams: started my career at 30 and I've literally, Dr. I feel like it took 10 years for me to finally even like, match my age. You know what I mean? Like, I, I, I never, and, and, and in my forties I finally am playing the age I am, but I've always been, you know, trying to catch up to,

Paul Adelstein: yeah.

I think that has to do with both of you, not just about your voices. I think it has to do with a certain kind of gravitas that certain actors have and certain actors don't.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, I'll take that. No one ever, unfortunately, however, no one ever thought like, yeah, hey, let's look at Cynthia and Sarah and find them a pair of legs at a [01:06:00] hot tub.

I'm really grateful that I got to skip that. Right? Yes. Part of things. But anyway, the whole point of this is. Going back 20 years later and watching it. Right, right. I do see different things in the show. Right. And like the decisions that have to be made around deedee and Casey mm-hmm. Are some of the hardest decisions Yeah.

Yeah. To watch in the show. And that's really interesting the way it's aged, I think, along with its audience.

Cynthia McWilliams: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, obviously there are young people watching it now, but I just, I just wanted to share that comment with you because Well thank you to, to, what

Cynthia McWilliams: was her name? A very cool one, Jess Pitzer. Jess Pitzer.

Thank you so much. And I, again, as someone who was so young at that time, I really, um, just, you know, I was so unaware of what it meant to be a mom, but I had to, I had so many conversations with my mom and I had to tap into a lot of experiences that I had had with, um, the young people that I knew and had worked with and.

Um, I, I'm really glad to know that, uh, as a real, as as a mother, now that you were able to [01:07:00] feel something, um, that, that in my youth and in my, um, naivete, I was able to, to find something that you actually connect to as a mother. Now that's really, um, affirming because honestly, as an actress, again, such a, I'm just giving you guys so many raw moments.

I don't know what's going on. Um, as an actress, I think, um, I, I didn't have children. I never had children, and, and sometimes I do, um, worry, um, or feel that, that like there's a, a depth of my womanhood I haven't achieved, right? Mm-hmm. And that, does that mean there are roles that I don't possess the, um, you know, something to be able to connect to, honestly.

Um, and I, I've had to talk myself through that a lot, you know, and remind myself that the craft is the craft and, um, that we're never completely in anyone's shoes and we're always, um, finding ways to connect the gaps and bring ourself to them and them to us. Um, and so I, I [01:08:00] hope that, um, I'm always able to, you know, search for truths that feel real to me so they can feel real to the audience.

But that really matters. And I thank you so much. That's really special, um, to know that I was knocking on the door at something 20 years ago that I hope I'm, I'm getting closer to today.

Sarah Wayne Callies: But also, like before we let you go, I, I think culturally. It happens, but also businesswise, it happens. There's a number done on women who decide not to have kids for any reason.

Mm-hmm. And it makes me real mad. I had kids. Um, it's great. It's an enormous amount of work and I don't think anybody should ever do it if they don't want to. And the idea, I completely understand because I would probably have the same thing in my head, but the idea that you, that there would be something unavailable to you as an actor because you didn't go through that.

Just like, I don't know, just as somebody who cares about you, like you're welcome to, I invite you to take that all the way out of your head and never [01:09:00] look at it again if that's what you want because of obviously the answer's No. But also you managed to land a beating heart of motherhood with very little screen time, not a ton of writing, no experience and so young.

Mm-hmm. Um, that like, you know, that one can. If you want. Well, thank you. I receive that. Listen, you're welcome to spend as much time with your neurosis as you want. I sometimes, me and mine sit down and watch Netflix. We have popcorn together. It's great. Uh, but you are also invited to let that one out the door because I,

Cynthia McWilliams: I'll take your invitation, receive it and say goodbye to that talk.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Outstanding. Um, man, I, Cynthia, we could do this forever. I feel like I need to let you go because it's now past 10 o'clock in South Africa and it's also time for me to come. It's, thank God I don't an early call time tomorrow, guys. That's what I'm

Cynthia McWilliams: excited about. I get to sleep. A

Sarah Wayne Callies: thank you everyone for being with us this week.

Um, we [01:10:00] will be, uh, back next week, Paul and I to answer a few of your fan questions. So if you're in the US you can call us and leave us a voicemail at 4 0 1 3 p break, or you can email us at pb podcast@caliberstudio.com. Or you can DM us on the show's Instagram page at Prison Break Podcast.

Music: As always, we invite you to check out our watch party episodes.

We watch the show with our real time

Paul Adelstein: commentary, sometimes about the show, sometimes just kind of rambling. Uh, they're available in our

Music: Patreon community, which we would like you to join. It's on, uh, your show page, wherever you're listening right now, or on the link in our Instagram bio. Again, thanks for being with us and you know, be good to each other in difficult times.

Sarah, nice to see you again.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, nice to see you too, Paul. Um, you know, I believe prison breaking with Sarah and Paul is, I think it's a caliber studio page. It is,

Paul Adelstein: yeah. And your house has been [01:11:00] inmate Sarah Wayne call and Paul Stein.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Our prison warden is Producer Ben Haber.

Paul Adelstein: Cutting up in the yard is Editor Lucian Singer, full name.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I would like you to come up with a different l name every time. That

Paul Adelstein: is true. His, his real name is Lucian. I

Sarah Wayne Callies: don't know. Uh, the front man of our jailhouse friends, my friend and yours, Paul Edelstein, who made all our music.

Paul Adelstein: Our prison yard Tattoo artist logo, brand designer is John Nunzio. It. Little Big Brands.

John Nunzio. John Nunzio.

Sarah Wayne Callies: John Nunzio.

Music: And we made that. Check them out at www little big brands.com. Follow the show on YouTube at Instagram at Prison Break Podcast. Join the watch party and our Discord community

Paul Adelstein: through the Patreon link in the show notes wherever you're listening right now,

Sarah Wayne Callies: because prison breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a caliber studio production.

And we thank you for listening.

Paul Adelstein: Bye. From the Land of [01:12:00] Gray.