1 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,669 CONNOR BUTLER: Historically, when people would see beetles 2 00:00:38,669 --> 00:00:42,040 mating with each other, they'd often assume that there would be 3 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:43,229 a male and a female. 4 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,439 But actually, what these scientists then did was prove, 5 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,080 if you take a closer look, it's often not the case, we can't 6 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,950 presume, we shouldn't presume what we know about nature 7 00:00:53,279 --> 00:00:55,270 because nature doesn't follow our rules. 8 00:00:57,020 --> 00:00:59,849 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: Hello, I'm Ranger Rosie Holdsworth, and 9 00:00:59,849 --> 00:01:03,330 today we're looking for a beetle whose flaps caused a flap in 10 00:01:03,330 --> 00:01:07,250 entomology and how projecting society onto science has shaped 11 00:01:07,250 --> 00:01:09,319 our understanding of the natural world. 12 00:01:09,690 --> 00:01:12,129 Can we ever let bugs be bugs? 13 00:01:12,290 --> 00:01:16,080 Welcome to Wild Tales, the queer life of a cockchafer. 14 00:01:22,919 --> 00:01:26,050 CONNOR BUTLER: So today I am walking around Osterley Park. 15 00:01:26,339 --> 00:01:31,029 It's a beautiful day. Because now is the perfect time to try 16 00:01:31,029 --> 00:01:34,069 and find some insects. 17 00:01:34,269 --> 00:01:36,669 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: This is Connor Butler, an ecologist and 18 00:01:36,669 --> 00:01:40,830 entomologist. He spends his days tracking down bugs and teaching 19 00:01:40,830 --> 00:01:43,279 others about their weird and wonderful nature. 20 00:01:46,870 --> 00:01:49,199 CONNOR BUTLER: The reason I love insects so much is firstly 21 00:01:49,199 --> 00:01:50,190 because they are everywhere. 22 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,319 The good thing about that is that you're never bored in life. 23 00:01:53,459 --> 00:01:55,529 You can always find insects. 24 00:01:55,599 --> 00:01:57,989 And there's something about looking for things that are 25 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,720 small and hidden that kind of makes them feel a bit like 26 00:02:03,370 --> 00:02:03,919 treasure. 27 00:02:04,250 --> 00:02:06,680 They're so pretty when you look at them up close. 28 00:02:06,849 --> 00:02:10,169 It's interesting to me that these beetles are so, so 29 00:02:10,169 --> 00:02:13,240 brightly colored, dung beetles especially, they live their life 30 00:02:13,610 --> 00:02:17,490 in animal poo, and yet so many of them are these metallic blues 31 00:02:17,490 --> 00:02:18,369 and greens. 32 00:02:18,529 --> 00:02:21,770 Why did they evolve this amazing colour? It's bizarre to me. 33 00:02:21,929 --> 00:02:24,699 That's kind of why I like them. They just sort of defy 34 00:02:24,699 --> 00:02:26,759 expectations of what normality is. 35 00:02:31,820 --> 00:02:34,940 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: Standing under the shade of a huge gnarled oak 36 00:02:34,940 --> 00:02:38,860 tree, Connor inspects the leaves of a lush green canopy, the 37 00:02:38,860 --> 00:02:41,979 veins shining through its cloud-shaped leaves. 38 00:02:46,710 --> 00:02:48,880 CONNOR BUTLER: And what I'm looking for right now is any 39 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:53,320 damage, any bite marks that could have been done by insects. 40 00:02:53,679 --> 00:02:56,240 And I've seen a few leaves, they've got these big chunks 41 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:01,199 taken out of and what I'm really looking for is a really special 42 00:03:01,199 --> 00:03:03,630 beetle called a cockchafer. 43 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,440 And what they're doing is they're feeding on leaves of 44 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:06,839 trees. 45 00:03:09,550 --> 00:03:12,910 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: The cockchafer goes by many names, a June bug, 46 00:03:13,029 --> 00:03:16,539 a May bug, or a doodlebug for their loud and clumsy flight. 47 00:03:17,070 --> 00:03:18,259 CONNOR BUTLER: I call them Cockchafers. 48 00:03:18,389 --> 00:03:22,589 So cockchafer, the first part of the word means something that's 49 00:03:22,990 --> 00:03:26,020 big, kind of very mighty cos it's quite a big beetle. 50 00:03:26,270 --> 00:03:29,759 And chafer comes from the old word for chewing, because all 51 00:03:29,759 --> 00:03:31,990 beetles have these chewing mouth parts. 52 00:03:33,020 --> 00:03:35,979 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: The life cycle of this bug is extraordinary. 53 00:03:36,190 --> 00:03:39,509 They spend 3 to 4 years underground as grubs munching on 54 00:03:39,509 --> 00:03:43,789 roots before metamorphosing like a butterfly, sometimes in their 55 00:03:43,789 --> 00:03:47,470 thousands into their adult forms, but they also have 56 00:03:47,470 --> 00:03:48,660 another claim to fame. 57 00:03:49,479 --> 00:03:53,970 CONNOR BUTLER: Cockchafers were the first ever species of animal 58 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:59,149 to be illustrated depicting same-sex sexual behavior. 59 00:04:00,399 --> 00:04:02,240 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: Same-sex mating in animals has been 60 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,399 documented for hundreds of years, but studying this 61 00:04:05,399 --> 00:04:08,589 behaviour has always come up against a problem. Us. 62 00:04:11,419 --> 00:04:15,080 Some people refer to this as Darwin's paradox. If sex isn't 63 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:17,010 for reproduction, we dismiss it. 64 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:20,739 This is what makes the 1896 illustration of the cockchafer 65 00:04:20,739 --> 00:04:24,420 so special, but it was not a simple journey to get there. It 66 00:04:24,420 --> 00:04:28,209 took entomologists six decades to create this image. 67 00:04:28,420 --> 00:04:32,299 In 1834, an entomologist and schoolteacher, August Kelch, 68 00:04:32,540 --> 00:04:35,459 came across two mating Cockchafers whilst wandering in 69 00:04:35,459 --> 00:04:38,380 a forest in Germany, but he noticed something. 70 00:04:40,179 --> 00:04:42,239 CONNOR BUTLER: So the way you can actually determine what sex 71 00:04:42,239 --> 00:04:46,839 a beetle is, for Cockchafers is you count the number of flaps on 72 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:51,600 their antennae, and males have got 7 flaps and females have got 73 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:52,109 6. 74 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,279 And when this German entomologist looked at these two 75 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,500 beetles, he realized that they both had 7 flaps, they were both 76 00:04:57,500 --> 00:04:58,089 male. 77 00:04:58,339 --> 00:05:01,809 And so he was very confused why these two male beetles were 78 00:05:01,809 --> 00:05:04,609 reproducing or attempting to reproduce with each other. 79 00:05:04,820 --> 00:05:08,390 And so he thought that it was probably a dominance thing, 80 00:05:08,399 --> 00:05:13,549 because the male European cockchafer is much bigger than 81 00:05:13,549 --> 00:05:14,739 the forest cockchafer. 82 00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:18,149 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: The mating was dismissed, but the sightings 83 00:05:18,149 --> 00:05:22,429 keep happening in a lemon grove in France, in fireflies dancing 84 00:05:22,429 --> 00:05:26,200 above a pond, and more and more frequently in the laboratory of 85 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:27,549 entomologists. 86 00:05:27,790 --> 00:05:31,380 But it isn't until 1896 that pen is put to paper. 87 00:05:33,769 --> 00:05:35,532 CONNOR BUTLER: There's a French entomologist called Henri 88 00:05:35,532 --> 00:05:39,690 Gardeau de Kerville, and he does the first ever illustration of 89 00:05:39,690 --> 00:05:44,329 these beetles. He draws two male Cockchafers mating each other. 90 00:05:45,410 --> 00:05:48,160 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: It's a delicate diagram of two beetles 91 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,109 linked by their perineum, which looks like a stinger. 92 00:05:51,679 --> 00:05:54,720 CONNOR BUTLER: And when he published this, it was really 93 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,720 controversial because of course it shows something that was 94 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,000 considered to be kind of unnatural, and a lot of people 95 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,109 were very negative towards this. 96 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,559 But he said it was so common that it kind of showed that 97 00:06:05,559 --> 00:06:09,880 there was this intrinsic nature of these beetles to do this. 98 00:06:12,459 --> 00:06:14,820 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: This conclusion began a decades-long 99 00:06:14,820 --> 00:06:19,206 argument between entomologists. On one side, Henri Gardeau de 100 00:06:19,206 --> 00:06:22,500 Kerville argued that some Cockchafers were doing it by 101 00:06:22,500 --> 00:06:23,170 preference. 102 00:06:23,339 --> 00:06:27,260 On the other, a French physician and neurologist, Charles Fére, 103 00:06:27,269 --> 00:06:30,700 insisted that the hot-blooded males were tricked into 104 00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:33,859 unnatural acts by misleading pheromones. 105 00:06:35,100 --> 00:06:38,299 This long argument didn't really teach us anything definitive 106 00:06:38,299 --> 00:06:41,380 about Cockchafers. We still don't know why some of them 107 00:06:41,380 --> 00:06:45,260 choose to mate with other males, but it did teach us a lot about 108 00:06:45,260 --> 00:06:46,019 humanity. 109 00:06:50,070 --> 00:06:52,630 CONNOR BUTLER: Now what's really interesting about the case of 110 00:06:52,630 --> 00:06:57,029 the cockchafer is that that kind of bias in society, we're always 111 00:06:57,029 --> 00:07:00,470 trying to justify why something is doing something. 112 00:07:00,589 --> 00:07:03,670 So if we see two male beetles attempting to mate with each 113 00:07:03,670 --> 00:07:08,000 other, we're always trying to explain away that it could be 114 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,549 something that is homosexual, and we don't of course, we don't 115 00:07:11,549 --> 00:07:12,540 know with nature. 116 00:07:12,799 --> 00:07:17,529 But by trying to say that it's a dominance thing, or it's an 117 00:07:17,529 --> 00:07:20,159 aggression thing kind of- 118 00:07:20,159 --> 00:07:22,670 It's quite a closed-minded approach, I think. 119 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,600 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: This'explain the gay away' is a common 120 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,709 phenomenon in natural history, but in many cases, research was 121 00:07:29,709 --> 00:07:30,950 buried completely. 122 00:07:31,700 --> 00:07:34,529 It's difficult to know exactly how much research has been 123 00:07:34,529 --> 00:07:38,549 hidden, suppressed, or ignored, but as recently as the 1980s, 124 00:07:38,769 --> 00:07:42,450 Doctor Janet Mann witnessed " More gay sex than imaginable" 125 00:07:42,450 --> 00:07:46,190 amongst dolphins, but delayed the publishing of her findings, 126 00:07:46,410 --> 00:07:49,959 fearful of being pigeonholed and fearful of the misrepresentation 127 00:07:49,959 --> 00:07:51,079 of her research. 128 00:07:53,019 --> 00:07:56,480 CONNOR BUTLER: Imagine if you were in the 1890s and you see 129 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:03,049 this drawing of these two male Cockchafers mating with each 130 00:08:03,049 --> 00:08:03,519 other. 131 00:08:03,769 --> 00:08:08,450 It was kind of the first time that the idea of homosexuality 132 00:08:08,450 --> 00:08:12,970 being something that was natural was brought into science. And so 133 00:08:12,970 --> 00:08:15,250 it was really controversial, but also I think it was probably 134 00:08:15,250 --> 00:08:18,450 quite powerful for a lot of people to see themselves, yeah, 135 00:08:18,690 --> 00:08:19,609 reflected in nature. 136 00:08:20,929 --> 00:08:23,440 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: Seeing same-sex behaviour in nature was 137 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:28,450 and still can be revolutionary. After hearing about the first 138 00:08:28,450 --> 00:08:32,010 discovery of male Cockchafers mating in Germany, Karl Heinrich 139 00:08:32,010 --> 00:08:36,130 Ulrichs, one of the earliest advocates for LGBTQ + rights, 140 00:08:36,210 --> 00:08:38,690 wrote in 1879: " 141 00:08:38,690 --> 00:08:42,080 Sexual orientation is a right established by nature. 142 00:08:42,489 --> 00:08:46,570 Legislators have no right to veto nature, no right to 143 00:08:46,570 --> 00:08:50,450 persecute nature in the course of its work, no right to torture 144 00:08:50,450 --> 00:08:53,250 living creatures who are subject to those drives nature gave 145 00:08:53,250 --> 00:09:00,220 them. The battle against nature is a hopeless one." 146 00:09:00,220 --> 00:09:04,000 That's a really good quote on many levels, like, it's a good 147 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:04,549 quote. 148 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,729 Science is meant to be objective, to give us the facts, 149 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,510 but in reality, our science is influenced by society. 150 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,239 From the lack of research on women's health to ignoring sex 151 00:09:16,239 --> 00:09:19,440 for pleasure in dolphins, our science has bias. 152 00:09:20,380 --> 00:09:23,429 Naturalists have long warned against anthropomorphizing 153 00:09:23,429 --> 00:09:26,619 animals. The natural world follows different rules to our 154 00:09:26,619 --> 00:09:27,140 own. 155 00:09:27,619 --> 00:09:31,349 Yet it's something we do time and time again, unconsciously 156 00:09:31,349 --> 00:09:35,349 and unquestioningly. So our science continues to reflect our 157 00:09:35,349 --> 00:09:37,950 societal values, whatever they might be. 158 00:09:39,690 --> 00:09:42,940 And although our society has changed and is still changing, 159 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,789 there remains some evidence of the bias we saw 100 years ago. 160 00:09:47,669 --> 00:09:50,909 CONNOR BUTLER: Earlier last year, there was a case of two 161 00:09:50,909 --> 00:09:54,229 humpback whales that were found mating with each other and it 162 00:09:54,229 --> 00:09:57,150 was the first time humpback whales had ever been 163 00:09:57,150 --> 00:09:58,950 photographed mating. 164 00:09:59,690 --> 00:10:02,940 And it turned out that actually there were two male humpback 165 00:10:02,940 --> 00:10:06,299 whales. And of course, there was a lot of controversy, a lot of 166 00:10:06,299 --> 00:10:09,219 people were saying, oh, it's just a dominance thing, it's an 167 00:10:09,219 --> 00:10:10,539 aggression thing. 168 00:10:10,979 --> 00:10:14,219 But really, we can never know and that's kind of the whole 169 00:10:14,219 --> 00:10:14,770 point. 170 00:10:14,940 --> 00:10:19,059 We see homosexual activity in nature, it's really common. If 171 00:10:19,059 --> 00:10:22,059 you ever raised chickens or studied insects, it's really 172 00:10:22,059 --> 00:10:25,289 common to see same-sex couples and same-sex matings. 173 00:10:26,059 --> 00:10:29,289 And so all we can say is it exists in nature. We don't 174 00:10:29,289 --> 00:10:31,489 necessarily need to justify why it's happened because we'll 175 00:10:31,489 --> 00:10:32,359 never really know. 176 00:10:33,409 --> 00:10:36,190 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: We see in the headlines from time to time, gay 177 00:10:36,190 --> 00:10:40,109 penguin dads, gay dolphins, a panic about mushrooms changing 178 00:10:40,109 --> 00:10:43,979 sex but the truth is that these headlines obscure something 179 00:10:43,979 --> 00:10:44,580 vital. 180 00:10:45,500 --> 00:10:50,260 Sex and gender in nature is more diverse, more expansive and far 181 00:10:50,260 --> 00:10:54,140 more fluid than we could ever imagine. It's our assumptions 182 00:10:54,140 --> 00:10:56,409 about nature that can limit our understanding. 183 00:10:56,619 --> 00:10:59,770 CONNOR BUTLER: Queer ecology is trying to unlearn a lot of that. 184 00:11:00,059 --> 00:11:02,700 And the more we learn about nature, the more we realize that 185 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:08,219 it's incredibly diverse. It doesn't follow all the rules of 186 00:11:08,219 --> 00:11:12,010 society, it doesn't follow the binaries, it's really fluid. 187 00:11:12,929 --> 00:11:16,729 And I think from that we can then look at ourselves and 188 00:11:16,729 --> 00:11:21,099 realize that actually, we're all part of nature and our fluidity 189 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:22,750 is also part of nature. 190 00:11:22,919 --> 00:11:26,520 And I think that when you then start to question those things, 191 00:11:26,599 --> 00:11:29,299 you look at nature very differently. 192 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,200 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: For hundreds of years, members of the LGBTQ + 193 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,679 community have been told that something about them is 194 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:36,510 unnatural. 195 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,179 And looking at bugs may not have the answer to a societal 196 00:11:40,179 --> 00:11:44,070 problem, but Connor knows first hand the impact it can have. 197 00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:46,739 CONNOR BUTLER: So I do a lot of queer ecology walks where I take 198 00:11:46,739 --> 00:11:49,900 people out into nature and I look at plants and animals that 199 00:11:49,900 --> 00:11:52,679 have kind of unconventional life cycles. 200 00:11:52,979 --> 00:11:55,979 And what I found really interesting is that people find 201 00:11:55,979 --> 00:11:59,140 it cathartic to see lots of plants and animals with these 202 00:11:59,140 --> 00:12:03,619 really diverse life cycles, whether or not they're asexual, 203 00:12:03,820 --> 00:12:09,000 if it's a bird that has the same sexual pairings, if it's a 204 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,830 woodlouse that is changing sex or a tree that is changing sex, 205 00:12:13,119 --> 00:12:15,440 and people like to see themselves reflected in nature. 206 00:12:16,530 --> 00:12:19,070 It's a hard thing growing up if you're a queer person, 207 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,000 especially in today's society. I mean, it's always been hard, but 208 00:12:23,270 --> 00:12:26,229 It's good to have people that are connected to to nature. 209 00:12:26,659 --> 00:12:29,260 But it's a slippery slope as well, because there's also lots 210 00:12:29,260 --> 00:12:30,789 of really horrible things in nature. 211 00:12:30,820 --> 00:12:35,109 There's parasitism, there's murder, there's things eating 212 00:12:35,109 --> 00:12:39,140 each other. So really, we shouldn't try and use nature as 213 00:12:39,140 --> 00:12:42,500 the basis for what we think is right or moral, and actually 214 00:12:42,500 --> 00:12:45,690 should just do what we as humans think is right, which is that 215 00:12:46,179 --> 00:12:49,340 everyone should be accepted to be who they are and just be 216 00:12:49,340 --> 00:12:49,859 themselves. 217 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,500 So as much as you want to take away from insects and we see 218 00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:59,460 these same-sex matings, at the end of the day, we're all just 219 00:12:59,460 --> 00:13:03,539 trying to get through life and hopefully flip over some logs 220 00:13:03,539 --> 00:13:05,020 and see some nice bugs now and again. 221 00:13:12,270 --> 00:13:15,630 ROSIE HOLDSWORTH: Thanks for joining me in this wild tale. Do 222 00:13:15,630 --> 00:13:18,809 you have an amazing story about the natural world? I'd love to 223 00:13:18,809 --> 00:13:23,809 hear from you. You can find us on Instagram @wildtalesNT where 224 00:13:23,809 --> 00:13:27,159 you'll also find behind the scenes moments, nature's giants, 225 00:13:27,169 --> 00:13:30,320 and the micro wonders that make our world the place it is. 226 00:13:30,929 --> 00:13:34,500 Use the hashtag #Wildtaleswednesdays, or email 227 00:13:34,500 --> 00:13:39,690 podcasts at nationaltrust.org.uk to send us pictures and stories 228 00:13:39,690 --> 00:13:41,239 of the wildness around you. 229 00:13:42,460 --> 00:13:45,780 Make sure you get every episode by following Wild Tales on your 230 00:13:45,780 --> 00:13:49,539 favourite podcast app. Even better, leave us a review or 231 00:13:49,539 --> 00:13:50,770 comment on an episode. 232 00:13:51,020 --> 00:13:52,609 I'd love to hear what you think. 233 00:13:52,979 --> 00:13:56,460 Did you know we also do video podcasts. They can be found on 234 00:13:56,460 --> 00:13:58,690 our YouTube channel or on Spotify. 235 00:13:58,940 --> 00:14:01,539 While you're there, why not check out our history show back 236 00:14:01,539 --> 00:14:05,770 when or for smaller ears, Ranger Rae and the Wildlifers. 237 00:14:06,299 --> 00:14:07,140 See you next time.