Podcast Shaun Simons 1920x1080
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Nick: [00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to the latest edition of Concilio Better Places podcast. Today I am joined by Sean Simmons from Compton and, and thanks for having me. No, no problem at all. And Sean, I, I see the cameras here and I think given your high profile, which you have on social media, when is the Netflix series gonna start?

I've just finished the Sirhan program on in Manhattan, and I'm thinking big fan of his London needs, something like that.

Shaun: Joe, what we've. We've really wanted to do something for years. Um, we've had different production companies come in to see us. Mm-hmm. And there, there's always, there's been an interest in doing it from a production standpoint.

There's been an interest from us to do it from a Well, why wouldn't you want to do it? Indeed. Yeah. I just feel that in the commercial real estate world mm-hmm. When you're dealing with institutional businesses. Yep. People listed on the stock market, um, even private businesses with confidentiality around it.

In the residential world, it's a lot easier to execute. Mm-hmm. You effectively, if someone's buying a house, can we film you? It's a yes or no answer. Um, and if [00:01:00] it's yes, you, you kind of follow the journey. But in the commercial world. Yeah, it's, it's riddled with nuance, so I don't think there's gonna be a Netflix show coming out soon.

Mm-hmm. Um, if we could find a way around it, I think there is some incredible I content, not any Compton content to create. Mm-hmm. But I think. The whole commercial property world, and I'm talking about all different scenarios, whether it's the planning. Mm-hmm. Whether it's um, someone looking to buy an office, to lease an office, a business who's going through unbelievable scale.

I think there's so many interesting storylines to pick up from that kind of show. I just think it's a really difficult thing to execute. Yeah. I think number tenants don't hold your breath.

Nick: Yeah. Number of tenants might be quite interested in that, might they? But yeah, the investors, isn't it? I think they

Shaun: would, but listen, I think there are some really good shows.

Mm-hmm. And there's some not so good shows and I feel that. The ones that are overproduced. Mm-hmm. Um, they don't quite hit the mark. I think [00:02:00] that's kind of the problem. Yeah. But don't hold your breath. I don't think it's gonna happen.

Nick: Well, in that case it won't. But for those, um, who are watching and listening who aren't aware of yourself and competent, you specialize in the city fringe and commercial.

Do you just wanna explain a bit about Yeah. So what the city fringe is.

Shaun: So broadly speaking, Compton is our second business. Mm-hmm. It's just my work. Really quick background. Yep. Um, I started in the real estate industry at 16. Um, left school failed my GCSEs, didn't get any a levels, didn't go to university.

Kind of went into the big wide world of commercial real estate. Mm-hmm. From the age of 16. Um, navigated through a few jobs for probably nine or 10 years, and then I set up my first business called Hatton Real Estate in 2010. We sold that business to cos International in 2016 and we reformed as Compton in 2021.

When I talk about Compton, I can talk about Compton and Hatton in the same vein because kind of Hatton was the iPhone one and I think Compton is the iPhone 10. Was Hatton 'cause of Hatton Gardens, is it that area [00:03:00] you specialized in, in that area? Well, myself and my partners all met during, we all met on Hat and Garden.

It just kind of felt correct, but um. They're kind of the same or the principles are the same. Compton is just a, a more modern version of what Hatton was. But effectively in 2010, we looked at the market and we felt that it was kind of full of. It was like the old boys club. Mm-hmm. It was all middle-aged white men in pinstripe soups that all did their dealings together.

Everything was quite insulated. Mm-hmm. And we were working in a, in a vibrant, innovative, creative part of the London market. And we just felt there was an opportunity to kind of mix things up and kind of make things a bit sexier. So we were kind of the first agent at Hatton to be using the likes of Twitter at the time.

Yeah. And YouTube from our mainstream marketing. We were the first agents to. Be doing video productions. I mean, they were awful at the time looking back on them, but at the time, we were the first ones to be doing it. Yeah. So really Compton is a kind of a, [00:04:00] a, an an evolved version of that. In the same way that you've got, uh, using the iPhone analogy.

You've got the iPhone one and the iPhone 10, or the iPhone 10. The iPhone 16, they print to be, do the same thing. They make calls. They send messages. You can go on the internet with them, you can take photos. Hat and Compton were the same things, I think, but Compton is just a more slicker. More powerful, larger version.

So how do you make commercial real estate sexy? Very good question. Now, commercial property should be sexy. Um, for years it wasn't. Now most people, and we won't go into the work from home debate. Mm-hmm. Hopefully, well, we might go into a little bit of it, but you spend more time in your office typically than you do in your home.

I mean, I do anyway. I mean cut by a country mile. Um, and I just feel. Offices. I just feel it's never really had, I guess, the exposure or the gravitas. I mean, and this all, and this all flows through, it's not just in terms of how they refurbish, but it's about how they're [00:05:00] branded, um, what they culturally mean for a business who occupies it, what about the community around it?

And I think there's a much. Bigger picture around the commercial real estate world mm-hmm. Than it's just a place you go to work. And part of what we've been trying to do as Compton is not only brand these buildings, um, correctly, but kind of engage with the consumer. Mm-hmm. Um. Rather than it just be an office where you go to work, it's about kind of storytelling, um, and making these things a lot more desirable than perhaps they were when they were marketed a decade ago.

So what makes the city fringe different? So the city fringe, going back to your original question. Mm-hmm. So the city fringe is. Well, it was always kind of the armpit. Is it like Walham

Nick: Stow Village? It just keeps growing and growing and growing in the estate agent terms, or is it a defined area?

Shaun: The boundaries do keep moving, but, but in a really kinda of high level view, it's kind of Clark Andmore Faringdon as one pocket Old Street, hor Ditch as [00:06:00] another.

Yep. All Gate White Chapel was another. Then as you go north, um, Kings Cross, Islington. Highbury, mm-hmm. Camden. Mm-hmm. Was that northern eastern fringe? Yeah. And then

Nick: Hackney, which is. And each of presume has its own distinct narrative to it. I, I mean, cross rail must be changing Farer and Google must be changing Kings Cross and so on.

Yeah.

Shaun: That, listen, especially at the moment, um, not only does every district have its own narrative mm-hmm. But actually the way the market is at the moment, every building kind of has its own narrative. So if you would've called me pre COVID and say, how's the Farrington market doing? Mm-hmm. I'd be able to tell you because you could kind of brush it all with kind of one, um, with one opinion.

Today, that's not the case. Mm-hmm. And that's just a shift in, in, in dynamics of the market, in the wake of COVID, in the wake of political uncertainty, in the wake of ridiculous planning policy. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. So that, that, that is our area of expertise.

Nick: Okay. And is it the tech industry? I mean, the [00:07:00] latest stereotype view of what's an occupier?

In short it say, you know, you, you, you picture in the tech world. Yeah. So

Shaun: well within that. Within the city fringe market, we, we effectively have a number of different service lines mm-hmm. On the brokerage side. So we do lease office leasing, we do, uh, tenant representation where we act for occupiers.

Mm-hmm. Service office brokerage and capital markets. Yep. We then have three other service lines. Um, we have Compton Studio, which are marketing business. We have Compton Concierge, which is a facilities management business, and we have Compton rates, which is a rates advisory business. Um. It's all really focused around the eastern city fringe.

And answer to your question, listen again, pre COVID mm-hmm. Um, 70% of the business we were transacting in the Eastern City fringes were to technology based businesses. Yeah. In the same way that the property market adopted Hanover Square and Mayfair in the sixties and seventies as their destination. The same happened with the tech market and the city fringe.

Now that is not the case at the moment [00:08:00] due to lots of different factors. Okay. Um, so what is, what is it now then if it's not tech? It's, it's kind of reversed back to what it was pre the tech explosion, which is, it's really a kind of, it's a bit of everything. Mm-hmm. I mean. Depending on which district, but if you look at things like All Gate White Chapel, there's a, there's a real kind of focus around here around charitable organizations, educational occupiers.

Mm-hmm. If you go into Shor Ditch and Old Street, you've still got a lot of tech happening. Yeah. Not as much as previously, but a lot of it. Kind of creative industries, fashion media, so on and so forth. Interestingly, Clarkman and Farringdon has, has kind of evolved a lot. Um, it's kind of become an extension of the West End rather than a part of the city fringe.

I mean, if you look at the. Some of the three largest tech companies in the world, if you think about it. Mm-hmm. You've got TikTok, Snapchat, LinkedIn, all of whom have picked in the last five years. Faring is their mm-hmm. UK hq. Um, but we get a lot [00:09:00] of Western end migrants. Um, coming over. I was gonna

Nick: ask about that.

We do a lot of work in the West End and we constantly hear the lack of new office supply in the West End, in the west end is forcing people to move out. The rents are going crazy. There's not much new stuff being built. Yep. Are we seeing, and it, it always struck me that if Google's going Kings Cross, and if you said all these other companies are going there, the ecosystem that feeds off of those companies or feeds into those companies would surely gravitate out of traditional Yes.

Soho West End and move to the fringe.

Shaun: Yes. But, but. I think this is where there's a slight misconception. Mm-hmm. So that narrative, it, I think is maybe 12, 13, 14 years outdated. Mm-hmm. So when I first started working in a long time ago, um. The local immunity for my lunch. Mm-hmm. Was the local Tesco, right?

Yeah. Now you look at Vanga, it's a, I mean, to be fair, all of the locations that we've mentioned, they are properly established locations. They've got their own identities,

Nick: don't they?

Shaun: They've got their own identities. They have a specific kind of culture. I think the way I try to describe the city fringe compared to the West end, and I love by the way, I.

I'm a [00:10:00] lover of London generally. I love Canary Wharf. I love the city of London. I love the West End. I love the fringe. They've all got something different to do, but the way I kind of describe the city fringe compared to the West end, the West end is super busy. Mm-hmm. It's. In some places it's chaos. I mean, even on a, in a working week, you try and navigate your way down Oxford Street.

Yeah. Or Region Street. It's chaos with mm-hmm. Office workers, tourists, so on and so forth. But everything in the west end's quite obvious. You know, where the best restaurants are, you know where the best streets are. The city fringe is a bit more uncovered. You've kind of got a. Kind of, if you know, you know?

Mm-hmm. It's kind of a bit of a journey of discovery if you like. Um, it's got all the amenities, it's got great gyms and great hotels and great bars, and great restaurants and great sandwich places, but it's all a bit more spread out a bit more. I. Relaxed. We don't have to push people out the way to get from A to B.

Yeah. Um, and then you kind of compound that with the, as you said [00:11:00] before, the introduction of cross rail. It's just changed the game.

Mm-hmm.

Shaun: Cross rail has changed the game. I mean, I got here from my office, so I, so we're in white chapel today. Um, my office is in Farrington from leaving my desk to walking in this door was about 13 minutes.

Incredible.

Nick: Insane and is for much, is there enough supply of new office stock to meet with demand? At the moment? At the moment

Shaun: there is plenty of supply. Right. Really? There is plenty of supply and there are issues with demand, but it's, it's interesting, right? And this is a false narrative. That's, I mean, mm-hmm.

You are probably, and I don't mean this way, but you are probably seeing the Sunday Times. Mm-hmm. Talking about massive shortage of West End offices or city offices, right? Correct. Yeah. Rubbish. Mm-hmm. And it is rubbish now. Well, it is rubbish for the majority of the market now if you are building mm-hmm.

A best in class city tower, or you are building a spectacular West end development of scale. Mm-hmm. You're in a great space [00:12:00] because there are, there is a shortage of, um, big product coming through. There are issues with planning, with viability, with all the, so office

Nick: buildings, if you like. Not money the big

Shaun: now that, but that only really represents the top slice.

Yep. And you are, if you are, if you are a big occup, if you are a law, if you are a law firm and you are looking for say, 150,000 square feet mm-hmm. In 27, 28, you haven't got that many options. Yeah. But if you want. Five, 10,000 square feet on a floor today. Mm-hmm.

Nick: You've got, I think I saw there's no HQ buildings being completed in 29.

I saw this. It's a

Shaun: major problem. Yeah. But this is a combination of factors. Mm-hmm. It's, listen, I think the, the fact that, um, interest rates are where they are Yeah. Cost capitals and insane, obviously that impacts capital values and, and yields. Um, the cost of construction obviously skyrocketed. Everyone thought it was gonna come down.

Yeah. If anything, it's still going up.

Yeah.

Shaun: Um. So you cannot, there is real issues around scheme viability. Mm-hmm. Um, but the narrative that I, I [00:13:00] keep having to correct people on is yes, there is a shortage of supply. Mm-hmm. But that's quite a dangerous statement to make when it only reflects the real top end of the market, the top 1%, so to speak.

I said, yeah, if you wanna find offices today, and I'm not just talking about the city fringe, I'm talking about, and the city core, and even in the Western, you want five to 10 k. There's no problem. So how, how is it in the market in terms of serviced offices versus unserviced? Interesting question. Mm-hmm.

So historically, a bit like a, kind of the political parties you had, the kind of the far left and the far right. So if you just kind of work me for a second. Mm-hmm. You all, you had conventional, at one end of the spectrum, you had serviced offices. At the other end of the spectrum, there was never really.

An occupier that was kind of considering both. Yeah. It just, it just never really happened. You were rather conventional occupier, or you're a service occupier. Mm-hmm. That was kind of the, the status quo. What's happened, and it, it all started with WeWork. Mm-hmm. And whether you love, or whether you love or hate WeWork.

You have got to respect what [00:14:00] they did because they have rewritten the rule book. They dropped about 4 million square feet into the central under market mm-hmm. Of pre fitted core space with this kind of mad culture, and everyone was kind of lapping it up. Mm-hmm. It was that moment that the conventional market.

They, they couldn't do deals because everyone who was going out was going into WeWorks. 'cause everyone was kind of falling into this. Mm-hmm. This is great. Guilty charged. We've

Nick: been in four different WeWorks. Well,

Shaun: guilty is charged. Well, there you go. So what's happened is over the last kind number of years is if you take my political attitude foreign, you've had the conventional market.

Go very center. So the conventional market are now delivering fitted spaces. Yep. So tenants like you don't need to put your hands in your pocket. Yep. Great. Great. They are no longer demanding long-term commitments and they're prepared to be much more flexible. So they've come competing, they've gone more center.

Mm-hmm.

Shaun: As a result of them going more center. Mm-hmm. The service office world has also gone more center. Yeah. So what you've now got is you've got two historic industries that. Well, the same industry, [00:15:00] but different parts of it offering at different ends of the spectrum. And now they're both all in the middle challenging for the same business.

Mm-hmm.

Shaun: Now the problem with that, and listen, we have a service office brokerage. I have a lot of clients in the service office industry. I am concerned for the service office industry at the moment. Mm-hmm. The majority of the serviced office operators, they're operating on a wholesale retail structure.

Mm-hmm.

Shaun: Okay. Yeah. Okay. And what I mean by that is Mr. Serviced office brand mm-hmm. Will go and rent a building from a landlord. Yep. They will rent that building for a, for what they believe is a wholesale price.

Mm-hmm.

Shaun: And they will then trade out at a retail price and they will make their margin. Yep.

The landlord. It's a, it's a freehold backed model. Mm-hmm. And by the way, I'm generalizing. Sure. There are obviously service office companies that have freehold models. Yeah. There's also management agreements, scenarios, which, but I'm just talking generally.

Mm-hmm.

Shaun: So whereas when the market turns the conventional landlord, he'd be like, Joe, [00:16:00] what we wanted 65 pound a foot, Joe, what?

When cut our cloth accordingly. We just wanna get this thing lit. We'll have to fight another day. We'll let it for 50. Yeah. They haven't got that wholesale retail argument. But all these service office operators that are holding leases at what they believe to be wholesale rents, they can't, they can't do, yeah.

Retail big reductions. 'cause they'll be loss making. Now that's a big problem. Mm-hmm. That is a big problem. Um, and it's a, and that, that problem has been exacerbated because. The, the difference in product between a serviced office product and a conventional product today, they're basically the same thing.

Yeah. Now you are in a serviced office, correct? I think you mentioned Yeah, we, we worked InCorp before. Yeah. And, and I get it right for you. You are in, I dunno, how many people are you? Eight 19 of us. 19 of you. So you are probably in a very small space. In terms of the 19 mm-hmm. You've obviously got all the facilities, all the facilities and amenities.

Yep. Um, and what's interesting is what we are finding through our data [00:17:00] is that businesses, and, and again, the other problem is the conventional market they're in, they're, they're up in their game.

Mm-hmm.

Shaun: Right? So whereas a conventional building of old, you can't walk in, say hello to the receptionist says, but now.

Conventional lands are prioritizing am amenity for opi. So it's business lounges, it's roof terraces, it's communal spaces. Mm-hmm. So all of this is just adding additional pressure onto the service office market, who fundamentally they need to be selling at, at big retail prices. Mm-hmm. Because they've got their wholesale price to pay back.

So it, it's, it's a problem.

Nick: And the service offices are, HA facilities are popular because some would argue you have to attract people working from home to come back. To the office. Mm-hmm. How have you seen, you've been quite outspoken on people coming back to the office and you think that's the right place to be, and I broadly agree with you.

Mm-hmm. I think Friday's, but Monday to Thursday, broadly agree with you. Yep. Are you seeing that shift when you are, when you are renting out space, [00:18:00] is it based on everyone being in there five days a week? Has it changed the rental models? Is it changed rents? 'cause people are only there three days a week.

Uh, no. How is it, how's that shaken down on in, in the city fringe?

Shaun: Well, I, I can talk from a London perspective. Yeah. It, it's all nonsense. So during the whole COVID thing, there was this sort, people have to pay for three days a week rather than five days a week. The reality is, and if you look at the stats that a lot of our clients get from their speed gates or their door entry systems mm-hmm.

Yes. Fridays and Mondays are slower. Yeah. There is no denying that. Yeah. My personal views are, it's, it's a nonsense, but you know what? Everyone's entitled to do what they wanna do. But what we are finding from a trend perspective is there, there hasn't really been any major impact on how people are taking space.

Right. And what's really interesting is in the early days in a post COVID environment, there were a lot of companies that did do that. Yep. They took maybe 20% less, 30% less than they needed. Lo and behold they won't be for two years. Yeah. And they were all, all of a sudden got, haven't got enough space. Yeah.

So, [00:19:00] um, COVID was a moment in time. The world was upside down. Um, no one knew what was happening. Everyone was speculating. Mm-hmm. As we sit here, what, four a bit years on. Mm-hmm. Um, listen, the world, we have not gone back to where we were in terms of, um, operationally market. Uh, market kind of consistency, market activity.

Um. But what I would say is that what COVID has done is it's created, it's made landlords improve their product.

Mm-hmm.

Shaun: Which has created a better environment for the consumer, the office tenant. Yeah. To have better options. So for all the bad that COVID did, and it did do lots of bad for the property market.

Mm-hmm. It's also enabled developers and providers to, to up their game and provide a better offering.

Nick: One of the sub-markets that does appear to be impacted. More than any other possibly by, uh, post COVID is Canary Wharf. Mm-hmm. [00:20:00] Um, how do you see Canary Wolf? We constantly read again, you refer to the Sunday Times.

Yeah. And that is where I get my news from and it does appear to be the HQ building. Occupies from Canary Wharf are moving over to the city, and the city are certainly boasting about their Yeah. Attractions. And it does seem to be doing well. How, how do you seek Canary warfare? Alright,

Shaun: so before I answer that, what, what's really interesting is during the whole COVID chaos, everyone was like.

No one's gonna wanna work in sit anymore. Everyone's gonna, if they're gonna take an office, it's gonna be closer to where they live. Mm-hmm. Short to commute, blah, blah, rubbish. If anything, it's gone the other way. Mm-hmm. Businesses are prioritizing the best buildings in the best location. So actually what people thought and what's happened is the complete reverse.

Mm-hmm. Canary, I love genuine. I, I've been on record about, I, I truly love Canary Wharf. I was there last week, had with my kids mm-hmm. Go boating around, uh, in all the waters. Yep. It's got fabulous restaurants, it's got fabulous, um, um, amenity. I mean, it literally is, it's, [00:21:00] it's safe, it's clean, it's, it's got great transportation.

It's brilliant. Right. But it's got a problem mm-hmm. From an office perspective, but it, it's not just Canary Wharf, it's, it's that whole kind of, so you've got the, the city fringe that we've been talking about. Mm-hmm. And then you've got this kind of Eastern arc that goes around the city fringe, which is Greenwich and Canary Wharf.

Mm-hmm. And. Stratford and Bromley by Bow and hackney wick and all. And there is so much office development. I mean, you drive around places like Hackney Wick and it is just board after board after board of buildings being built. Mm-hmm. Um, you planning policy is a disaster because the likes of Hackney and new, they keep forcing developers to deliver offices.

Mm-hmm. But it's a nonsense because there's not really that much demand now. I think Kwa Wolf is gonna be fine. Right. Kow Wolf is, it's had a, it's had a few, um, few bits of bad news with some big occupiers moving [00:22:00] out. Mm-hmm. But it's also has some big occupiers commit to it. Um, but I just feel it's, it's too good to fail.

Like the offering is too good to fill. I think the introduction of Crossrail, I think cross. I think it's gonna be fine. It's all the other buildings, all the other districts around it that don't have that level of amenity, um, don't have the transport infrastructure. And the problem is you've got people building buildings and as going back to what I was saying before about construction costs, they need to build these things and make profit.

Yeah. And. Listen, property is a very simple economic structure, supply versus demand. Mm-hmm. If there is more supply than there is, demand pricing can only go one way. And the problem is at the moment is in that kind of eastern arc, and there are a few exceptions to that. Mm-hmm. But in that Eastern arc, um, there is just too much supply.

Yeah.

Nick: Um, and there's not enough demand always strikes me when you drive around is how much empty space there is on the ground floor. It's as well. It's not, it's just, it's, I mean, I think what do we do with that empty ground floor space So much is boarded up and

Shaun: so much fear. But I mean, listen, I think, I think for example, [00:23:00] British Land are doing a phenomenal job at Lander Water.

Yeah. And I do think that will be a really big success because they're creating an ecosystem. But I mean, there are, I mean, if you drive over the, the flyover bribe, um, well if you go to City Airport is a better example, and. I love City Airport. And when I, it's the best kept secret. Don't tell people about it.

Isn't nowhere. It's like a bus. It's like a bus. But when I often, when I go, when I travel from City Airport, I, and I'm in a taxi there. Mm-hmm. And I'm driving through and I'm on all these A roads and I'm seeing, oh, a hundred thousand square feet of offices there. And I'm like, that's never letting, and then you drive past another one, and then another one, and then another one.

I'm like. Who's renting these buildings, especially in a post COVID world where everyone is, I mean, businesses are hell bent on getting their teams back. Mm-hmm. They're not gonna be able to do that. If they've got substandard offices, they're definitely not gonna be able to do that if they've got awfully located offices.

Um, [00:24:00] so who's gonna rent these things? Yeah. Who is, and then it, it goes on further. It's how do you recruit the best talent if you've got a crap office in a crap location? So I think, and the problem is, and I don't wanna single out council so I can get hate metal for it, but the problem is, the way my understanding works on planning is the planning policy that we're working with today is something that was probably crafted.

Yeah. Five, six, mm-hmm. Seven years ago. Mm-hmm. And it's just these things should be reviewed annually. Yeah. And not only should they be reviewed annually, but they should have people on those panels that actually understand the market. So there are multiple things we're involved in at the moment in the borough of Hackney.

And by the way, there are pockets of Hackney that are super popular. Yeah. There are pockets of hackney where you will not do office sales, you just won't do them yet. The planning office or the planning office is demanding. That they deliver [00:25:00] offices. Yeah. Now I get it. Because they're reading. The computer says no, this is what the policy says.

Mm-hmm. But if we want to have an incredible capsule, which is diverse and vibrant and full and busy and successful, we've gotta be a bit more nimble in the way we approach planning. And it can't be five years. You can't be looking at this like five years ago. Yeah. 'cause the game changes all the

Nick: time.

Yeah. There it does need to be regular reviews and we've got, it's nuts. We've got the London plan being reviewed at the moment. I

Shaun: know, but how long has it been being reviewed for? And then when it's reviewed, how it's gonna take to do. And then the problem is once they do it, it's gonna be out date again and the new

Nick: government policy and so on.

And it just keeps cycling.

Shaun: I mean, and we were talking before we, when we started, about the lack of residential, right? Mm-hmm. Now we know that there is a, a shortage of affordable homes in London. Yeah. Right. We know that. But policy at the moment is, I mean, how many schemes are you dealing with that are unviable?

Vast majority. Yeah. I mean, I've, I,

Nick: well there's hardly, we, we are hardly working on any residential now. I valued a site,

Shaun: a mixed use [00:26:00] site the other day in Hackney, which is currently being used as a, as a, as a, a surface mounted car park. Mm-hmm. It's just a, a bit of land. I valued it as sub minus 3 million pound.

Mm-hmm. Minus 3 million. It's worth more, yeah. Than. So this block, which has got know 15 or so thousand square feet of offices, I think it was like 25, 30 flats. It's worth more as. Overground car parking. Incredible, isn't it? In London? In in London. It, it's nuts in London. And that's because what we've discussed, construction costs.

Mm-hmm. That's a problem. Um, we've discussed interest rates, obviously from a yield perspective, an exit that's a problem. Mm-hmm. But it's also the red tape around planning. Um, it's the policies, it's, it, nothing is working and it's all gonna grind to a halt. Mm-hmm. But it probably has already. I mean, nothing's being built.

There's not much

Nick: residential going on, is there? But one thing I love about the property industry is the optimism because property developers at heart and everyone who works in it, we have to be optimistic [00:27:00] because there's so much, you know, there is so much ban news, but it's always property developers who drive things forward over the cycle of starting something to, to finishing it.

You've probably gone through two economic cycles. Uh, you can have Brexit, COVID, everything like that. So my, my hat off to the property industry. So where do you see the optimism? Um, I'm the mo, I know I've been sitting

Shaun: there moaning, but. I I'm allowed to moan and be optimistic at the same time. Yeah, indeed.

And, and listen, I've in put it this way, in the last 10 years, 15 years of since running business, well I started my first business in the middle of the financial crisis. Yeah. I started my second business in the middle of the COVID crisis. Mm-hmm. Um, listen, I think property is an incredible industry to work in.

It is, is brilliant. Um. I don't think anything is drastically gonna change. Um, I think that we have a problem at the moment, um, in consumer confidence. Mm-hmm. Uh, and investor confidence. So I think there are lots of different things going on in the world at the moment. We've got, um, well, there's been inflationary [00:28:00] issues.

Yeah. That got two, maybe three wars going on every day. You open a paper, so to speak? Yeah, it's something new. And, and listen, everything, everything. It's a very kind of sentiment driven industry. Mm-hmm. And I'll give you a story. So, and there was a present I wanted to buy myself. Right. I've been, I've been looking at this particular item.

It's an expensive item. I've been, look, I've been eyeing out for like two, three years. Mm-hmm. And I, about four or five weeks ago, I was like, Joe, what? I might go run by Baltimore. Yeah. I'm gonna do it. It will make me happy. Did you check with her wife first? No. No. Okay. That's brave. No. No. I wanna be my own man.

Mm-hmm. Um, and I was like, I'm gonna buy it. Then, I think it was that Monday or Tuesday, I was like, right, today's the day and it was the day that the Trump thing happened. Mm-hmm. The Trump tariffs, the start rocket up tariffs just blew up. Yeah. And then obviously I run a brokerage and all of a sudden I'm getting my WhatsApp from the team's go, this one's pulled out, this one's put on hold, this one's pulled out.

And I'm sitting there thinking, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Do you know what? I know I was gonna do this thing today. Mm-hmm. But we've just [00:29:00] lost about seven deals in a day.

Mm-hmm.

Shaun: Hold off, maybe I'm gonna hold off and if you translate the way I behaved about me purchasing an item to a consumer who is about to rent an office or an investor who wants to invest in a building.

Yeah. If you are in a market where there is so much uncertainty and you have the opportunity to buy something on a Monday that could be worth less on a Friday, your natural instinct is just a hold fire. Yeah. And I think at the moment everything is just, it's just boring, right? Mm-hmm. And I like the property injury is, it's boring at the moment.

It's, it's not falling through its backside, but it's not firing through it's thinking

Nick: along.

Shaun: But it's bumbling along. Right. Okay. I wish it was ticking along. Yeah. Yeah. It's not ticking along. It's bumbling along, and yes, there'll be the odd deal in the West end for telephone numbers and that. That's great.

But again, we're talking about the real top slice. Mm-hmm. For most people in the property industry, whether you are an [00:30:00] agent, whether you are in debt, whether you are a developer, whether you are an investor. Mm-hmm. Whatever you're doing is just. Bang, average. It's bumbling along. So what I think needs to happen is we need to try and get some con, I'm not worried about the work from home thing anymore.

At one point I was like, this is the end of of offices. But that last about three days and that's gone. People came back to the office. It's not, not just me saying it, it's fact. Um, but what I do think needs to happen is I think the world generally just needs a bit of stability. Mm-hmm. It feels like we kind of go from crises to crises at the moment, and I just feel if you, again, take consumer behavior, I gave you that example mm-hmm.

And you translate that into how people. Look at offices or moving home, it's the same thing. Yeah. But we need some, some sustained stability so people can kind of feel good about themselves and confident. That's a good job. We've got three and a half years of President Trump

Nick: ahead of us, uh, to provide that stability.

So whether

Shaun: you love Trump or hate Trump. Right. And I kind of, I, I, [00:31:00] I flip flop between kind of really, I wanna say I love him because he's a very difficult man to love. Mm-hmm. I do respect the fact that he is being very bold in certain approaches. Some of them approaches I don't agree with. Um, but I don't think Trump is necessarily the problem.

I, if anything, I, I'm not saying I'd want Trump in mm-hmm. The, the prime minister of this country, but. I just feel there's kind of a lack of, listen, it all stems from the top. Mm-hmm. The culture in our business and the, it stems from the people at the top. It feeds down, and if you look at the government, it's at the moment.

I just think it's, I think it's uninspiring. Mm-hmm. It lacks direction, needs a jolt

Nick: of energy, doesn't it? And

Shaun: it just doesn't give people the confidence, like if, if the people at the top

Nick: Yeah.

Shaun: Are bumbling around and not being confident, that is gonna just directly impact the people underneath it. Mm-hmm.

Like you and I. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I don't, I, I don't feel something massive needs to happen. [00:32:00] Mm-hmm. I just feel we need some, some sustained. Calmness for a bit, which I don't feel like we've had. I say we've gone from cri, we've bounce. We've bounced

Nick: in from Brexit on. It's been well financial crisis before financial crisis.

Brexit

Shaun: literally is just from one. Chaos. Yeah. To another, um, we had a bit of a run between the financial crisis and Brexit. Mm-hmm. We had what? Yeah, five years. Five years.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah. 2010 Cameron Government came in. Yeah. It all settled down a bit and that Correct. And have your own views on the policies, but it did settle down.

Correct. And then Brexit. So

Shaun: that's why I think this happened. As said it, it's not falling through the floor. Yeah. But it's not shooting to the moon. Um, it's just boring. Mm-hmm. And bumbling along. And it's been like that for a couple

of

Nick: years now. Really. We started this by you. Saying you would done fresh things in the industry Mm.

When you started off. So how do you make it not boring? How is comp gonna kick ahead for the next two, three years? What, what are you gonna do to make yourself, um, not be, 'cause I guess almost [00:33:00] you are not a challenger brand anymore in many respects. If you think City Fringe, there's a couple of agencies I'd I'd think of, yeah, we do for Australians and yourselves.

So you all, you know, it could be a young upstarts looking at you thinking Right. They're there for the taken. So, so how are you, how are you gonna stop

Shaun: that? I would love

Nick: that.

Shaun: Yeah. So the thing I love most about business is having competition. Yeah. And you, what you moan about the competition, these nickname make you do better things, make you do better things.

It drives you on to do more. If we had more time, I'll tell you a story maybe on the follow up. I'll tell you a great story about when we were hat we had some of the biggest firms come after us. Yeah. And it was, it, it created this war mentality that was incredible. Um, listen, I. I've got big ambitions mm-hmm.

For Compton, together with my partners. Um, phase one of our project is kind of now complete. Phase one was about building solid foundations. You can't build a roof, a rooftop extension without having solid foundations. So without kind of going into too much detail mm-hmm. Um, I feel that, listen, I think Compton as a, as a business, it's not only [00:34:00] got a brand.

Which means something. Mm-hmm. Um, which is alternative to, I guess, a lot of the other brands of the market, but more importantly than the brand is the, the mindset, the way of thinking. It's, we're all about challenging convention. Mm-hmm. And even though we've kind of hit a certain level, that is a constant challenge that we want to keep evolving.

Yeah. So, um, don't be surprised if you see. Some interesting growth opportunities. Mm-hmm. Within the common brand over the next kind of three to five years. That's it.

Nick: And maybe we'll see it on Netflix

Shaun: and maybe you'll see it on Netflix.

Nick: Brilliant. Sean, thank you for your time. Thank you for having me. Thank you.