PB_S2E20_CC_0602 ===

Paul Adelstein: [00:00:00] Do you think that they ever used the song Panama in season three?

Sarah Wayne Callies: What song? Panama In season three. I'm so sorry, I don't know it.

Paul Adelstein: The Van Halen hit of 1983 or nine.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Panama.

Paul Adelstein: Is that the whole song? Probably. Are we gonna get sued now?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, if any Van Halen notices that we sang one word of his song, I'm gonna be pretty chuffed.

Paul Adelstein: Well, you will be because he passed like five years ago. Um, sorry,

Sarah Wayne Callies: RIB, but

Paul Adelstein: his, his, his, his lawyers. Alex, Alex Van Halen, his brother or David Lee Roth. Me, um, or, or I [00:01:00] can't remember the Michael Anthony, the Facebook. All right. Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: by the way, we mention, uh, van Halen later in our Palestine index when we get there.

Which I'm sure you knew, which is why you brought it up just now. We just built

Paul Adelstein: Oh, of course. Yes, I did. Of course. As I memorized, um, circular thing kind of is a interesting, interesting episode, right? Like action packed, but also other stuff. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I like the kind of two-hander scenes between Michael and Lincoln.

I like the sense that after all the like, action, action, action, action, action, action, action. I mean, it's kind of just the two of them. On some boats and walking through the jungle, rolling around in the jungle, rolling around in the jungle.

Paul Adelstein: Um, I, I like that for all the plot machinations of getting them ready for season three.

There's also, uh, uh, yeah, a psychological [00:02:00] shift between them or like dynamic shift in that Michael is becoming impulsive. I mean, he's kind of driven crazy that he, she's feeling, and we, we've seen it in earlier episodes when, when their father died, et cetera. But mm-hmm. The toll mm-hmm. That this is, has taken so many bodies, so many bodies, and now Sarah was gonna join them, she sacrifices herself, and then Teabag is still out there and it's driving Michael crazy.

And, um, and Lincoln has become the voice of reason saying, mm-hmm. Go. We got what we wanted. You know, it's an interesting, um, role reversal. It is.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And I mean, I think it brings up a lot of like, what's the, what are the ethics here? Is it the greatest good for the greatest number or do you get to say, no, my brother's life outweighs the lives of the collateral debt.

Like, you know, they, I like the, uh, I like the return to ethics that this show. They do terrible things and then they go, [00:03:00] hang on, we gotta reckon with the fact that we did terrible things. And I, um, mm-hmm. I like that. I like that a lot. Um, I want to mm-hmm. Real quick, um, Uhhuh, okay, no, let's go, let's get, let's get to the index.

Um, because also I think when you're doing the index, I think. I was reading recap notes, some of which were wrong. 'cause I feel like there was something about you in the recap notes and I were you in this episode? I,

Paul Adelstein: I,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I, I,

Paul Adelstein: no, I was in, you're in the credits,

Sarah Wayne Callies: but we missed you. Um,

Paul Adelstein: I, I, I'm not in the, I was not in this episode,

Sarah Wayne Callies: so I think, anyway, I think I'm, I think there's an error, which

Paul Adelstein: confuses me.

Is there, is it possible this is a 23 episode season?

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, it's 22.

Paul Adelstein: Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Huh? '

Paul Adelstein: cause I know that I try to, and then I come to you to say, [00:04:00] oh, right. That would be the same episode.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think so. Okay. Okay. Anyway, Calista index. Okay. Let's do the, let's do it again. And just to remind people we do this index. Mm-hmm.

Because this show aired a long time ago and things were different, but also some really weird things feel very similar. Um, and so this locates us in the sort of moment in. 2007. Everybody already knows that. Sarah, sorry. So episode two 20, Panama aired two weeks after two 19, meaning we were off the air for a week for some reason.

Um, I actually couldn't figure out why there were no like big world catastrophes, but as we're watching it, and I could see that parts of it were shot on that location in, uh, the south of Florida. I can't remember. But, so they, they shot a lot of the beach stuff and the Panama stuff. Um. In Southern Florida, and I wonder if they took that week off so that they had enough time at the end of the season.

Oh. Anyway, that's my only guess. Um hmm. At any rate, Panama. Um, this episode returned to the lowest rating of the season, actually at [00:05:00] 8.4 million live viewers. The competition in the time slot was different with a, B, C airing the season four premiere of Dancing with the Stars, so it's possible at that eight interviewers over at CBS, they were still running.

How I met your mother and NBC still had on deal or no deal in this. 8:00 PM Monday time slot. Um, episode was written by Zach Estrin. It was directed by Vince Ano his second of eventually three episodes on the show. Um, and in case we haven't mentioned this before, ratings are usually not a scorecard for a specific episode.

They reflect more about like the opinion about previous episodes and what else was on that night, and the audience's commitment to a show, uh, week to week.

Paul Adelstein: Well put. Thank you. Uh, to recap episode two 20 Panama. On the, on the run after the resignation of President Reynolds destroys any hope for a presidential pardon?

Michael and Lincoln get in a ship ah, the Panama and wait for Sarah to join them. But is that, eh, she's not gonna [00:06:00] make it or And that was a ship? No, that was the

Sarah Wayne Callies: ship that was like, it worked for both.

Paul Adelstein: No, but. Bad news, Sarah is arrested by the FBI. Mahome becomes obsessed with Schofield's plan and figures out that the brothers are headed to Panama because Kim tells him, yes I about that.

But Eternal Affairs is hot on Mahomes heels. They cut a deal to put Sea Note and his family and witness protection and exchange for testimony against Mahome. Running out of time to kill all the Fox River eight Kim offers to help him hone, disappear if he finishes his mission. And sends Mahome himself to Panama.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Panama. Meanwhile,

Paul Adelstein: teabag kills a prostitute who insults Mrs. Hollander, and then narrowly escapes from Rey and Beek, who are after West Moreland's $5 million. Rey tries to get rid of Beek, but he's told that Ma Cruz is being held captive until Beek gets his money. Just as Michael and Lincoln get to the boat, Michael had put in place before being Def sent to Fox River, they get a message from Sue Crae on the secret website about tbe c.

Giving Michael pause about vanishing for [00:07:00] good. Unbeknownst to the brothers, the message was actually sent by Mahome, who's clearly laying a trap, clearly

Sarah Wayne Callies: laying a trap. Um, and I was wrong in our preamble when I said I was wrong in the thing about including you, I gotta say writing these scripts, uh, I'm going a little bit like Mahome.

With the Mahome. Yeah. I'm getting a little mahome like with my, like connected. Anyway,

Paul Adelstein: you getting,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'm going a little bit BCAs, um, in Terrifying Precedent News. Oh, that sounds like an actual episode of Prison Break. On March 9th, the US Justice Department released an internal audit that found that the FBI, which is of course where Maho Works, acted illegally in its use of the Patriot Act, which Maho referenced in the show.

The FBI had used. This is the real FBI. Wow. This is the real FB. I had used the ACT to secretly obtain personal information about US citizens, including phone records, computer records, credit and bank history, FTA between 2003 and 2006. The FBI issued [00:08:00] 192,499 UNCON unconstitutional subpoenas, which led to one terror related conviction.

Paul Adelstein: On on the lighter side In losing my religion news. On March 12th, REM was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, also inducted that year. Grandma Master Flash The Furious five. Patty Smith and Van Halen. Wait, van ha, I think

Sarah Wayne Callies: it's Grand Master Flash in the furst spot two days later. Isn't it? One band?

Paul Adelstein: Of course it's, yes, of course. It's,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I didn't know Van Halen, so we're we're good. Sorry.

Paul Adelstein: Grandma Master flash of the fair is fine. Two days after, uh, later March Madness kicked off at the University of Dayton. That tournament is the men's Division One College Basketball Championships ultimately won that year by the Florida Gators.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Wait, woo.

Paul Adelstein: Okay. Wow. REM was inducted in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 20 years ago. Okay. Yeah. We, wow.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I

Paul Adelstein: know we will be right back to talk about the episode.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We sure will.[00:09:00]

Hey, look, now we're back to talk about the episode. Welcome back. Okay.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, can I just give you some props for your incredible car work? Oh, I know you were saying during the rewatch. Oh, I loved driving that car. You did a very nice job driving it. Obviously some free driving going. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Love a free drive.

Yeah. Um, but also your call to. First of all, your series of calls with Michael are excellent, kind of, I love in the midst of tension, you know, where I'm going with this. In the midst of all the tension that there's some levity, it makes the warmth between you two so real. When you say, you say, Michael Schofield, you're asking me to sail away with you and

Sarah Wayne Callies: sunset, or something like that.

Paul Adelstein: Um, it's such a lovely, it's such a lovely line and it's delivered. Beautifully by you. 'cause you know, you're having fun with him and it's romantic and [00:10:00] of course it sets up her not sailing, falling on her own sword. To to, to let the Yeah, yeah. To let them get away. Because she knows that if you say I'm not on the ship, I'm being pursued by the baddies.

Yeah. That he will hop off the ship to help. That's right. So, and I love that that's not explained, uh, over. Excuse me, overtly that it just is like she knows. We know. She knows. We know. He knows. She knows. Um, and the work you did, giving yourself up saying goodbye to him, it was just, it was really beautiful.

It's really good. Understated, smart, really like,

Sarah Wayne Callies: thanks. I, Zach Estrin really understood that relationship. He wrote it really well. Michael and Sarah. Mm-hmm.

Paul Adelstein: Mm-hmm. Do you remember where you shot that? Because we were trying to figure it out. We're like, is this Florida? Is this Texas? Is this I never

Sarah Wayne Callies: went down to Florida, so.

Oh, shh. You okay, okay,

Paul Adelstein: okay. [00:11:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um,

Paul Adelstein: yep. I thought I did something stupid, but I didn't.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, yeah, I never went down to Florida. I was not in the, uh, the contingent of people who went down and shot down there, so we shot that somewhere in Texas. Mm-hmm. Um, that was someplace. In that was someplace in Dallas and I think they managed to comp it together so that it looked like it was on the waterfront, but it, it, it wasn't.

Um, 'cause one thing Dallas doesn't have is waterfront, that's for sure. Um hmm. Yeah. I like those scenes. I, you know, I mean, I said this on the, the rewatch, but I think there's something. About both Michael and Sarah and Michael and Lincoln, where every time you see them sacrifice themselves for each other, you root for them a little bit more.

Um, which is, I think a part of the show's secret sauce. That these are people who genuinely, genuinely, I think, care more about each other's safety than care about, uh, their own personal safety, which I think might be a pathology. Like, I don't know that it's healthy, [00:12:00] but it is a kind of rapid devotion,

Paul Adelstein: uh.

It goes also towards what we were talking about earlier, about um, what's going on between the brothers. I mean, yeah, Michael, you know, Lincoln is like, Hey, nobody asked you to do this dude a

Sarah Wayne Callies: hundred percent.

Paul Adelstein: And he's like, they were gonna kill you. And he's like, maybe you should have let them. And he's like, take that back.

Uh, take that back, is such an interesting thing to say because it's basically saying. All the people that died along the way have to be worth it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Paul Adelstein: I mean, Michael set this thing in motion and, you know, uh, Veronica's dead. You know, the person after person after, although person, you know and,

Sarah Wayne Callies: no, no, go ahead.

Please finish this up.

Paul Adelstein: Sorry. No, please. Nope, that was it. That was my thought.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay. I would [00:13:00] say, because we do this a lot. We talk about like, oh, he's the one who set this all in motion. And, um, I would actually say that I don't think he's the one who set it in motion. I think the company are the ones who set it in motion, right?

Like, if they hadn't picked LinkedIn Lincoln to be the patsy, like, like I, I say I'm, I'm, there's something that the show is doing that I have never questioned. But it's a little bit of victim blaming. Do you know what I mean? It's like, Michael, you're at fault for trying to break your brother out. Well, no, in theory, the people are at fault who incarcerated him in the first place.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, that, that the, the, I mean by, by which

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean you, kellerman are at fault. But I mean, I'm thinking of this in the context, and I know this is a weird parallel to draw, but I, I produce a show that's a, um. A podcast about domestic violence, and we've been talking a lot about how [00:14:00] people ask the wrong question.

Often women are asked, why did you stay? And I heard somebody on that podcast the other day say, that's the wrong question. The wrong question is, why did you stay in an abusive relationship? The right question is why did he hit you? Leave the blame where the blame belongs. And I think it's interesting that all these years, through all these conversations and all these scenes, it never once occurred to me when I see this Michael and Lincoln thing of, oh my God, there's so much blood on my hands because I let teabag out because I was so selfish about saving my brother that it's like, well, wait a minute.

The blame belongs with Kim and Kelman the company.

Paul Adelstein: Well, okay. Yes. But if I can push back on that a little bit. I don't have an analogy for the, I don't have an analogy that works with the domestic violence thing. That's a very interesting, we can leave that. That's fine. Um, well, no, uh, is that [00:15:00] Michael decided to do something about it.

Mm-hmm. But part of doing that thing about it was duping. Sarah, let's just start with that one.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yes.

Paul Adelstein: Like part of his plan was suckering that wo this woman and getting her to do something illegal that put her career in a hundred percent jeopardy, period. Full stop. Absolutely. Okay. So you don't, that's not killer Kellerman and Case Well,

Sarah Wayne Callies: no, but I think it re it doesn't go far enough back to.

Why they're in this mess in the first place. They're not in this mess in the first place because Michael decided to bring his break, his brother outta prison. They're in this mess in the first place because somebody decided to set up that. Anyway, we're okay. Um, it's just a new thought, that's all. I agree.

Um. We also had a conversation. Okay, so the C note and mahon of it all I think is really interesting because essentially what Mahon says to Kim [00:16:00] is, all I want is my wife and my son. That's all I've wanted from the beginning, which is exactly what C Note gets.

Paul Adelstein: And he says, do you see my wife? Do you see my son?

So great all it's

Sarah Wayne Callies: Fanta. I mean, I, first of all, Billy's working this whole episode. I love.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. He really gets to, he really gets to, to tear up. He does. I

Sarah Wayne Callies: mean, his work in that scene with Wheeler is fantastic. Mm. Mm-hmm. In the parking garage, in the, in the weirdly green lit parking garage, Uhhuh, um mm-hmm.

I mean, I, broader scale. I like that there is in a show that is so restrained. I like it when people get genuinely angry because so many people are so restrained in this. Mm-hmm. Michael Lincoln and Mahon. All kind of blow up, but you had a question and I realized I don't know really the answer. I know we'll figure it out in the next couple of episodes if this is a real escape for Cino and his family, because I believe it's Cynthia's last episode on the show.

We don't see them again. [00:17:00] I,

Paul Adelstein: I think it is.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think they,

Paul Adelstein: if he's not in three, then it is. And you said he comes back and four. I know he's in four.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I

Paul Adelstein: don't know if he's in three. I don't. Okay, we're gonna start getting into an, it's gonna be interesting what our fan, uh, what our, uh, listener watches start to think of our ignorance.

Complete fall off of prison Break knowledge after we're off the show. Are they gonna be like you sons of,

Sarah Wayne Callies: oh, we both have very good reasons for not having watched season three. We'll get there, but like, I think it's okay. I was a brand new mom. Okay. And you had another job. It's okay. I was a tv. You were a TV doctor, doctor.

It's hard to be a TV doctor.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Uh, it was also like I was a not Yeah, it was. Yes. But I wish I had better knowledge of the,

Sarah Wayne Callies: um, yeah, and I mean, we did talk to Cynthia about how they didn't invite her back for anything, which is weird. We Right. Um, we by the way, [00:18:00] have not had much time for fan questions in a long time, so I have a few and I do wanna get to them.

Because we always run outta time. Okay. So if you've got other stuff to talk about, let's talk about this.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, did love the intimacy

Sarah Wayne Callies: of the Michael and Lincoln stuff. It was really cool to see them.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uh, yeah. And after,

Paul Adelstein: and I love that we may have our first happy ending. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Like it was moving to see mm-hmm.

The Franklin family and the

Paul Adelstein: thing where he. Stops and turns around and like the bars are

Sarah Wayne Callies: in front of him.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It's a cool moment. Hey. Where he's just like, oh yeah. Also the return of Kim Coates was lovely. Um, yes. Yeah. Actually some, it's interesting, some of my favorite scenes, well, not favorite, but like.

It was a really [00:19:00] well-rounded, top to bottom cast. I really liked Barbara's work in this, watching her watch. Mm-hmm. Mahon Go Full, beautiful Mind, um, was kind of wonderful just to like, okay, buddy. Um, there was a gentleness and a restraint in that that lays a groundwork for future things with them that I dig.

Um. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: And we get the general's first words.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. On like a dinghy, a boat, lots of boat

Paul Adelstein: d like a, like a little

Sarah Wayne Callies: row boaty. Correct. Nautical usage, dingy thing. Um, correct. Nautical usage. Listen, I, we actually talked a lot about this episode on the rewatch itself, rather than trying to come up with things to say, here, let's talks, let's do some fan questions.

Let's questions. Um. Yeah, because we always run out of time. [00:20:00] So let's take a quick break. Okay. And let's come back with fan questions. Okay, great.

Okay. A word about this week's fan questions. This week's fan questions are from our Discord community. Um, something really beautiful is happening over there that we have nothing to do with. So folks who join our Patreon community have access to this, uh, private discord server where they talk about the podcast and they talk about the show and they make community with each other.

And they've started co-author, authoring fan fiction. Which is totally bonkers. Like they just like send it around and everybody writes a little piece of it. They're doing watch parties for the watch parties who are watch party episodes. They like get together and watch them live together, which is incredible.

Um, and they're like generally being awesome to each other. It's really cool. So they also created a section of this discord. I don't really know much about discord, but [00:21:00] like a sub discord. It's probably not a thing for fan questions. So these fan questions. Um, are all from our amazing Discord community.

And, uh, I'm gonna start with this one from Rachel 2 4, 6 0 1. Um, if Sarah had not escaped from Kellerman, if he hadn't been canceled by Kim, would he still have had the identity crisis that ultimately leads him to redemption? Obviously that arc doesn't play out specifically in this episode, but like. What do you think about that?

I read that question when I was writing this up today and I was like, oh,

Paul Adelstein: I, that's a very interesting question. Yeah. I would say, well, it just to analyze the first part of that question, if Sarah had not escaped from Kellerman, that means he would've killed her

Sarah Wayne Callies: dead.

Paul Adelstein: So I would [00:22:00] like to think, yes, that that would have.

Pushed him. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm.

Paul Adelstein: Over that. Even if he had gone through with that horrible act, that, and that what he's learning from Caroline Reynolds' ascension to the presidency and controlled by the company is that he is expendable, but also that her. He, he, I always thought of her and her political career as his kind of North star.

Mm-hmm. That he believed in the country and he believed she was the best thing for the country. And those two things aligned, that when she becomes compromised, when he starts thinking she's not, she's in it for the wrong reasons, or she's willing to abandon her own principles for what the company wants and not what the country needs.

I think that is one of the [00:23:00] seeds for his, uh, uh, kind of come to come to Jesus. Uh, and then Sarah's obviously a big part of it, and Kim era, him is a big mm-hmm. Part of it, but I, I think without, uh, the kimma racing part, it still would've reached a crisis point. 'cause I don't think he could have, uh, been her ride or die all the way into the evilness.

Mm-hmm. I think he was starting to have trouble, I think from the moment he kills Danny.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh. Mm-hmm. It's kind of matter of time. I mean, it's, there's something, um, cool about that in this episode. I bringing that up in this episode too, because it's a little tiny bit of what happens to Mahome, which is he sees himself in Wheeler Yeah.

And kind of decides, okay, I'm gonna face the music. Yeah, I will, I'm gonna get prosecuted, I'm gonna go to jail. [00:24:00] Um, but rather than trying to kill Wheeler, I mean, maybe there's just no point in that because wheeler's a part of a larger machine. But it feels a little bit like he's decided to stop running and face his future.

And then Kim comes. I don't in and goes, no, no, no. I've got a way out for you. Oh, oh, oh. I think that's the pivot in scene. Oh, I

Paul Adelstein: think, oh, I see. So it's, it's, dude, you've reached the end of the road. I've reached the end of the road. Mm-hmm. I'm done. He's tearing all the shit down. He's like, I'm, I'm done with this.

And then Kim comes and says, A way out is if you double down, basically. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, I think he's like, I'm going to prison and I'm not gonna kill Wheeler at the door. I'm not gonna try and take this kid down with me. Instead I'm gonna give him some advice that I wish somebody and blah, blah, blah. Um, but it's, it's interesting because I think in that sense, both.

[00:25:00] Kellerman, Michael and Mahon all end up with a line in the sand that ultimately they won't cross. And it's hard and they've gotta face things in themselves, but what separates them from someone like Teabag is teabag never really hits that line yet. Yes, he doesn't kill Mrs. Holland and her kids, but you know, I mean, I don't think we give him props for that, right?

Like. Teabag doesn't have that line. And I think it's kind of interesting because as the show goes on, we just keep piling up bad guys. But now we're sort of separating the bad guys by like moral compass. And it's like, well, Kellerman recognizes that he got to be a part of something terrible and tries to take steps to fix it.

Now putting a rifle scope on a president isn't necessarily everybody's way of fixing thing. I'm not condoning, but you know, it's interesting that both he and Mahone at a certain point. Yeah. Are like, yeah, I gotta stop. Uh, [00:26:00] I can't remember what that's called. Throwing good money after bad. Well,

Paul Adelstein: uh, good money after bad.

Um, you know, the next thing we see Kellerman do pretty much, I think the next thing is he tries, you know, I think so. His own life.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, and that seems directly. Well, we talk, we'll talk about it next time. Okay. But directly inspired, if that's the right, right word. Uh, motivated by Reynolds stepping back.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Everything I've, I mean, given my life to

Paul Adelstein: there. Well, there's no, there. He has no, like, it's as if he killed her. I mean, it's, it's, oh, interesting. She's done. I mean, what was he gonna do? I mean, he says to his sister. You know, I'm gonna do something. No one's gonna understand. I mean, I think the implication there is that after he did that, he was probably gonna do himself in,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I would imagine.

Paul Adelstein: Um, and so to a certain degree, it's almost like a continuation of that plan.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. Hmm. [00:27:00] Interesting. I'm going through with this part of it. Even if, even though Step A didn't succeed, I'm going to step B,

Paul Adelstein: but step eight did succeed. I mean, that's true, right? She's outta office, didn't do step A, but the, but the, but the.

She's outta office. Right, right. I don't know. We'll have to think about that one. Yeah, we'll see.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, we'll see.

Hmm. Some of these questions have to do with the show and some of them don't, but I sort of like them all anyway.

Paul Adelstein: Uh,

okay. I got one from Rachel 2 4 6 0 1 as well. What's that? Ah. Obviously the Michael Sarah Romance is not as central to the story as some would wish. The question is, what choices would've been different for Sarah in the series if she hadn't fallen in love with Michael? Does she leave the door open? Uh, Rachel 2 4 6 0 1 [00:28:00] thinks yes.

Would she meet him in Gila? Does she work with the gang of Outlaws of season four to take down the company? Are these all things

Sarah Wayne Callies: that

Paul Adelstein: is part of her? Um. Romantic entanglement with him. Does there become an ethical entanglement with him where she believes in the good works that he's doing? What do you think about that?

Sarah Wayne Callies: You know, I don't know that this is gonna be a popular answer, but I can only imagine that as a physician in a facility that has a death row. And as somebody who is intelligent and informed, you know that they are putting innocent men to death. You might not know which ones, but if you have been paying any attention to the American criminal justice system and, and the differential [00:29:00] justice that is meted out, particularly in um.

In capital cases. In capital, yeah. In capital murder cases, I.

I imagine you have at some point, because they never say, this is the first time Sarah's been a part of a death penalty case. Right there, there, there's nothing in season one that I can remember that's like, oh, I've never actually had to be here through this before. So giving the files to her dad fighting for clemency, I buy all of it.

I think Michael is right in his assessment that her feeling profoundly emotionally invested in him is a key [00:30:00] component to her leaving the door open. Um.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, what about the giving the files and the appeal to clemency? Do you think that was to do it? No. No, I think, I think you do that one way

Sarah Wayne Callies: or another. I think you, I, the thing that she did was to break the law by leaving the door open for him to escape.

I don't think she does that. Okay. Unless she thinks.

Unless some part of her feels compelled by something other than logic, and for what it's worth, I think the writers know that too, because otherwise the gender of the doctor doesn't matter. Otherwise, you're just appealing to the conscience of a good person, right? Like it could have been a male doctor.

And this isn't about, I'm seducing him. This is about, I'm laying out my case and I'm compelling him through the, the power of my argument. [00:31:00] But that's not what it is. It's, I am, I'm taking, but

Paul Adelstein: that wasn't the, that wasn't the plan, was it? No.

Sarah Wayne Callies: The plan, the plan was to seduce her. And I think that's because he knows that.

Oh, it was, oh yeah, a hundred percent from day one. From day one Oh oh oh, okay. From day one. It's the whole thing about like, oh, maybe we met out at a bar drunk someplace. Like I think, I think that was always the play. What the problem was that he actually fell for it too, and Right. And they got, I gotcha.

They got stuck like that. So, you know, would Sarah join their efforts to try and do the right thing in season four by the time the company has killed her father? I think we're in different territory. But in terms of that initial decision to leave the door open, I don't think, I don't think she leaves the door open if she doesn't.

Um, if she doesn't. [00:32:00]

Paul Adelstein: What about meeting him and Gila? What about the gang Outlaw season four take down? Well, there's

Sarah Wayne Callies: no meeting him in Gila if she doesn't leave the door open. 'cause Lincoln's dead and he's still in prison. Um, I think it all. I think it all starts, right? I think it's all right there because after that there's that whole sequence of events and you know, her dad gets killed and, and all those things.

I do think at the point at which they kill her father,

she has less to lose. Yeah, she's gonna get some. Yeah. But in terms of committing that first crime. I don't think she does it if she doesn't love him. And I, I don't think that's gonna be a popular answer. I think people would probably like to believe that, like she's a re a good and moral person. But I think you can be a good and moral person and go to work in a facility like Fox River and recognize that like there are going to be profoundly unjust state-sponsored killings here.

And that's part of the job.

Paul Adelstein: Oh God. Oh, smokey [00:33:00] dos.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, okay. Uh, this is, this is just a little bit of like, write yourself some fan fiction, but I like this question. Stephanie wanted to know, how do you think Kellerman would've explained that burn to the ER doctor? So,

Paul Adelstein: oh, it's very easy. It's

Sarah Wayne Callies: What do you, what do you mean it's very easy?

Tell me, how's it Very easy. What do you mean?

Paul Adelstein: He is, he is in a big hurry. He is got a, a very important meeting or event he's ironing while the shirt's on him ironing. No. Oh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I just don't have time to iron my shirt, so I'm just gonna iron it.

Paul Adelstein: I tried to iron it while it was still on my body. It was so stupid.

Uh, no. I think it's, I think it's the, um, uh, yeah, I mean, I think there's a, he's ironing

Sarah Wayne Callies: and then what

Paul Adelstein: in his shirt? He slipped and it

Sarah Wayne Callies: fell

Paul Adelstein: and hit me the chest. Okay. I really

Sarah Wayne Callies: prefer the, like I was in, just fix me. Just it hurts. [00:34:00] Just fix me. I prefer the idea that he was in too much of a hurry to take the shirt off and he just decided to iron it

Paul Adelstein: while it was still on.

He was driving. He plugged it in in the car. He was very late and he got in a slight fender bender and it jammed. I

Sarah Wayne Callies: hate it when you're driving an ironing at the same time. Uh, Stephanie, thank you for that question. That was genuinely delightful. Okay.

Paul Adelstein: Okay. I got a good one. Uh, Raffa, R-F-A-R-R-E-R. Okay. Says because they are a complete theater nerd.

Ooh. They wanna know your top three musicals.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, okay. I want you to answer this afterwards. Wow. Oh really? It

Paul Adelstein: really has nothing to do with the show. Oh, wait a second.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Second. I just realized I have to close that out. Um, it has nothing to do with the show except. I think it's a wonderful question. Um, yeah.

I'm not so great at musicals or questions like this. Rent is number [00:35:00] one. I was in hysterics the first time I saw rent. Um, like laughing or sobbing, crying, like sobbing, sobbing, sobbing. Because the first person who I ever really knew that died, died of aids. And it was horrible. Not just the disease, but the way that like he and his partner were.

Treated and blah, blah, blah. Um, but also Jonathan Larson, who wrote it, uh, every year my university has a summer program where they invite people up from New York City to be in residence. And the summer, the summer before rent came out, Jonathan Larson had come up to workshop the show. And so all these people that I went, like I was, I wasn't there that year.

Um. All these people in my theater program knew him. And so when Rent came out, there was this whole giant explosion of interest. Yeah. And then of course, for those of you who don't know, Jonathan Larson [00:36:00] died of a heart attack the night before opening night when Rent took over the world and like became this massive musical.

Oh my God. Um, so Rent would definitely be on the list. I do really like Hamilton. I do. I'm sorry. Um, I know that's kind of basic. Sorry. Well, 'cause it's kind of basic. I never saw the producers, I never saw You're in town. I heard they were both fantastic. Oh, avenue Q. Yeah. Avenue Q is one of the funniest, most irreverent things, uh, that I've ever seen.

And I saw it live in New York. How about you? Favorite musicals?

Paul Adelstein: Uh, talking Finger Basic, I'm gonna go West Side Story. Ooh, guys and Dolls. Le Miss.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, Le Miss Miz is having a moment. It's having a big moment with the youth. Uh, my

Paul Adelstein: brother, who is not a musical theater per, not a theater person, he's not. Okay.

Guy. Uh, he studied abroad when he was a junior in college. I was a junior in high school and we went to visit him in London, Uhhuh, where he was studying over, uh, yes. [00:37:00] Christmas break. And my brother, who is not a musical guy you mentioned, was like, I got us all tickets to go see this musical. And we were like, you did what?

And we sat in like the second row and watched Leman. It was, he had seen it and he was like, you're not gonna frigging buy this. Oh, London

Sarah Wayne Callies: Lemus.

Paul Adelstein: Um, and. The original. Yeah. Like it had just opened Holy Smokes. And it was like, oh my God. I had no idea what I was getting into. You know, one of those things. It was,

Sarah Wayne Callies: it was amazing.

It's got an interesting Hawaii connection actually. They hire a lot of young Hawaii actors. Oh, okay. Wait, I got one for you here. Um, this is interesting. This is also r re or Ra. I apologize dude. Um. If your characters from season four or five could give the season one version some advice for everything they would go through.

Ooh. What do you think Paul would say if Kellerman had a time machine I and could go [00:38:00] back? Oh my God, it's a good question, right? Yeah. My bangs are driving me nuts.

Paul Adelstein: I mean, I think he would say, you gotta be done with Carolyn Reynolds. Now.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm. Walk away.

Paul Adelstein: I think that, I think that would, I think that would, yeah.

I think walk away. I think your the time to get off this train before it does you damage because you've done, you've been a good soldier. Mm-hmm. But it's going the wrong way. And then what does he do? And you don't see it yet. Like,

Sarah Wayne Callies: do you just quit the Secret Service? I mean, maybe he,

Paul Adelstein: you know, he ends up in, well, maybe, and he, I mean, he does end up being a congressman.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's true.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, and then working in, working in intelligence right by up to season five. So, you know, he still wants to serve his country and

Sarah Wayne Callies: lateral move out of the company's watch and, you know, yeah. Being congressman is interesting to like mount a political career that runs against her is kind of [00:39:00] fascinating.

Paul Adelstein: Right? Right. Yeah. He knows where all the bodies are

Sarah Wayne Callies: buried. I have a question for you. I have a question for Paul. Paul, if. You woke up tomorrow morning and Paul Adelstein mm-hmm. From 2023, no. 20, 35 years Sense was standing at the foot of your bed Yeah. And gave you advice.

Paul Adelstein: Oh boy.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Would you take it?

Paul Adelstein: I don't, I don't

Sarah Wayne Callies: know.

Well, I'm saying like,

Paul Adelstein: how's he look? I mean, does he, is he, he looks, does he feel Compass Menis. He's fully Compass Menis. He got his shit together. He's fully Compass Menis.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And he says to you something wild like. You have to move to Slovenia. Trust me. I don't have time to explain.

Paul Adelstein: Yes, yes.

Sarah Wayne Callies: You do it, you drop everything and you do what future Paul Stein tells you to do.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Can you imagine how, what if future Paul Stein told me to move to Slovenia? Um, I, whatcha telling me for, [00:40:00] I was like, do you want me to call Paul real quick? Wait,

Paul Adelstein: what's, what's actually good before, before we get off onto that, which is pretty great. If, if season four or five Sarah showed up to talk to Dr.

10 Craig, season

Sarah Wayne Callies: one, a hundred percent. Mm-hmm. Um, this one I think is actually,

Paul Adelstein: what would she Okay. It,

Sarah Wayne Callies: it would be, go get the tape that's in Warden Pope's box at the Cigar Club right now. Make copies. Give it to your dad. Like, do you like there? There's, Hmm.

Paul Adelstein: Very practical.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Well, Sarah has the ability to head this whole thing

Paul Adelstein: off at the pass, but it's not, don't, don't fall in love with the, don't fall in love.

I mean, he's got five

Sarah Wayne Callies: years, like you've got five years to like soft date the guy, he's coming in for shots every week. Do you know what I mean? Like, see how it's going. Yeah. Lemme see if you can get it, you know? [00:41:00] Wow.

Paul Adelstein: Things, things must be thin. Things must be pretty thin in Sarah's day life. Um, have you seen

Sarah Wayne Callies: the people who show up at her NA meetings, like all she's getting offers is, yeah, that's true.

You know? Yeah. Ic, do you wanna go to the Sizzler off the interstate? A hundred percent Sizzler? I think she knows that she's got a good one. Yeah. Um, she just needs to wait five years for him to, you know, do his time. Um, I think we have question. What's that? Okay. And

Paul Adelstein: then, wait, no. And then to your question, if Sarah.

When college showed up in 2030, stood at the foot of your bed and goes, Hey dude, Slovenia. Now what, what would, uh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I would probably get so in my head about it, I'd be like, well, is she like a clone sent by my arch nemesis who I've never met, who's trying to get me to just, I don't know. I, I would probably find some reason.

To stick to the status quo in my life and not drop everything and move to Slovenia, because that feels like a lot. [00:42:00]

Paul Adelstein: It's really making that

Sarah Wayne Callies: question. I'm so sorry. Um, okay. My computer is about to die, so I think we've got time for one more question. Let me see. We, we, oh, let's rather, um

hmm. Well, Jordan asked a question. I am not sure if we can answer this, but if more, if Westmoreland didn't die and had somehow joined the escape, how do you think Michael would've eventually gotten the information from him regarding the missing money? Do you think someone would've found out about the missing money?

Paul Adelstein: I don't. I don't understand.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Had they seen who Westmoreland is on the news? Well, I think it's an interesting question, which is Jordan's making a good point, which is that all of season two hinges. On Westmoreland divulging to Michael where the money is. And had they gotten out all of them together, Westmoreland might [00:43:00] not have done that, or might have said, right.

Paul Adelstein: Well, he may have needed some help to go. He may have needed some help to go get it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's

Paul Adelstein: true.

Sarah Wayne Callies: But I do like, I like it when fans point out that the show is supposed to be about events that like. If you change one of those events, everything falls apart. And that, that I think is a, that's a, a good way to point out.

Yeah. Um, yep. Yeah. That's a fun one. Okay, so, uh, we still have way more of these. Let's, we'll get back to them.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah, we'll do 'em shortly. Mix.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um. So, yeah. Thank you everybody for being with us today. Yeah. Um, as always, we invite you to check out our watch party episodes and the Discord community and all that stuff.

You can do that on the, um, link in the, uh, show notes wherever you're listening or watching right now. Um, or on the bio. Yeah, it's true Instagram.

Paul Adelstein: It's true. Yeah, also true. Um, did you know that prison breaking with Sarah and Paul was brought to you by Caliber Studio? I did

Sarah Wayne Callies: know that your host have been [00:44:00] inmate, Sarah Wayne Callies and Paul Stein.

Paul Adelstein: But did you know that our producer warden is our, our

Sarah Wayne Callies: producer warden, that's what I'm gonna call him from now on. Yep. Our producer, our producer, our yard cutter is, uh, editor Luke Singer.

Paul Adelstein: Wow. And the front man of the rock band is probably Elstein,

Sarah Wayne Callies: who has not yet been inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but we're expecting him to join Van Halen.

Any moment now. Our Prison Yard tattoo artist, logo and brand designer is John Zido at Little Big Brands. Check them out at www.littlebigbrands.com

Paul Adelstein: and and follow the show on YouTube and Instagram at Prison Break Podcast. Email us at pp podcast@caliberstudio.com.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, and prison Breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a caliber studio production.

Thank you for listening. Please be good to each other in difficult times.

Paul Adelstein: Yes.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Bye y'all.

Paul Adelstein: See you next [00:45:00] time.