(00:00:00): It was in our 14th year that he started hitting me.

(00:00:03): In the 13 years prior, I had told myself that he was a decent man because he didn't hit me.

(00:00:09): The truth is that he did everything but hit me,

(00:00:12): and the only thing that stopped him from hitting me is that he never needed to do

(00:00:15): it to keep me in line.

(00:00:17): I now understand that abusive men use their abuse to control women,

(00:00:21): not because they lose control of their emotions.

(00:00:23): So what happened in the 14th year?

(00:00:26): I started demanding household equity.

(00:00:29): I bought all this shit about how he's just a nice guy and just needs me to explain

(00:00:33): it better to him.

(00:00:34): So I did.

(00:00:35): And he understood what I wanted, didn't want to give it to me, and started hitting me.

(00:00:40): It's all deliberate.

(00:00:41): Everything they are doing is deliberate.

(00:00:44): All of it.

(00:00:45): Hi,

(00:00:46): I'm Zonva Lines,

(00:00:47): a writer and feminist activist,

(00:00:49): and this is the Liberating Motherhood podcast.

(00:00:52): I am here today with the legendary feminist philosopher, writer, sub-stack author,

(00:00:58): hero, inspiration, wonderful human, Kate Mann.

(00:01:02): Hi, Kate.

(00:01:04): Thanks so much for having me.

(00:01:05): And thanks for that lovely introduction right back at you.

(00:01:10): Yeah, Kate is awesome.

(00:01:12): If you are not familiar with her work, I hope you will get familiar with it.

(00:01:15): I think you are all going to love this interview.

(00:01:18): So let me tell you a little bit about Kate before we get started.

(00:01:22): Kate Mann is an associate professor at the Sage School of Philosophy at Cornell University.

(00:01:28): She specializes in moral,

(00:01:29): social,

(00:01:29): and feminist philosophy and has written three books,

(00:01:33): Down Girl,

(00:01:34): The Logic of Misogyny,

(00:01:35): Entitled,

(00:01:36): How Male Privilege Hurts Women,

(00:01:38): and Unshrinking,

(00:01:39): How to Face Fat Phobia,

(00:01:40): a National Book Award finalist in nonfiction.

(00:01:44): In addition to academic work,

(00:01:45): she regularly writes opinion pieces and essays for a wider audience,

(00:01:49): including in outlets such as The New York Times,

(00:01:51): The Cut,

(00:01:52): The Washington Post,

(00:01:53): The Atlantic,

(00:01:54): The Nation,

(00:01:54): and Times.

(00:01:55): She writes a Substack newsletter,

(00:01:57): More to Hate,

(00:01:57): exploring misogyny,

(00:01:59): fatphobia,

(00:01:59): and their intersection.

(00:02:01): If you are not subscribed to Kate Substack, I highly, highly recommend subscribing.

(00:02:06): She writes amazing work,

(00:02:08): but there's also really interesting,

(00:02:10): compelling discussions going on in the comments.

(00:02:12): You can learn so much and gain so much inspiration from reading her.

(00:02:16): So I really hope you will.

(00:02:17): I will put all of her information in the show notes.

(00:02:21): And

(00:02:22): Hopefully she'll tell us a little bit more about the work she's doing and why it's

(00:02:25): important and all of that.

(00:02:26): So we're going to get started.

(00:02:29): Kate,

(00:02:29): your work,

(00:02:30): more than any other philosopher who immediately comes to mind,

(00:02:34): provides what is,

(00:02:36): in my opinion,

(00:02:36): the most helpful blueprint for understanding both why individual men do what they

(00:02:42): do and also how patriarchy functions as a system through these men.

(00:02:47): How did this happen?

(00:02:49): How did you gain so much insight?

(00:02:52): And can you tell me how you see your own work in the larger feminist movement?

(00:02:57): Yeah, well, thank you so much.

(00:02:58): That's so kind.

(00:03:01): And I really began to think about misogyny as a social force in a serious way in

(00:03:10): 2014 after the Isla Vista killings.

(00:03:13): So they happened over Memorial Day weekend, which is...

(00:03:18): coming up.

(00:03:19): Uh,

(00:03:19): so it'll be an anniversary of those events where Elliot Roger was a young 22 year

(00:03:26): old man who had posted these YouTube videos,

(00:03:29): these screeds about the women who weren't sleeping with him,

(00:03:35): who weren't giving him sex,

(00:03:37): love,

(00:03:37): affection,

(00:03:38): and adoration.

(00:03:39): Um,

(00:03:41): And he eventually decided to slaughter a whole sorority house full of women.

(00:03:49): So he drove to the Alpha Phi sorority house at the University of California,

(00:03:54): Santa Barbara,

(00:03:55): loaded weapons in hand.

(00:03:57): He knocked on the door,

(00:03:59): was denied entry,

(00:04:00): and then ended up shooting three young women who were walking outside around the

(00:04:06): corner,

(00:04:08): killing two,

(00:04:09): wounding one of them.

(00:04:11): He also killed four young men that day in a kind of drive-by shooting spree.

(00:04:19): And before that, he stabbed to death his three roommates.

(00:04:22): So it was this horrific massacre.

(00:04:25): And...

(00:04:26): What was so striking about it to me as a feminist philosopher was the way that so

(00:04:33): many people in the media denied that this was misogyny immediately and reflexively.

(00:04:39): When it was so obvious to me and I think virtually every feminist that...

(00:04:46): this was an act of profound entitlement and that it really exemplified something in

(00:04:52): the culture where men feel entitled to certain goods from women and women are

(00:04:58): deemed obligated to supply these goods.

(00:05:01): And so that kind of framework really emerged from thinking about this case,

(00:05:06): but it was something where thinking about this case got me into thinking about so

(00:05:12): many other phenomena from domestic violence to sexual assault to family

(00:05:18): annihilators to the kind of aggression directed toward political leaders who are

(00:05:24): female.

(00:05:26): I found that this

(00:05:28): way of thinking about what women are held to owe and what men are deemed entitled

(00:05:34): to,

(00:05:34): it generalized to more phenomena than even I had expected.

(00:05:39): Yeah.

(00:05:42): I mean,

(00:05:43): I think the thing that I remember most about that story is how it was constantly

(00:05:49): depicted as a crazy person and as mental illness.

(00:05:53): When to me,

(00:05:55): It was just, well, this is not someone behaving crazily.

(00:05:58): This is someone behaving consistently with the values that our culture taught him.

(00:06:04): Yeah,

(00:06:05): and I used as the subtitle of my first book,

(00:06:09): The Logic of Misogyny,

(00:06:10): because I do think that this is not a set of random,

(00:06:16): unpredictable,

(00:06:18): wild acts of people who are just completely out of touch with reality.

(00:06:24): What they have is a set of corrupt moral values,

(00:06:27): which say that they should have this role in policing and enforcing patriarchal

(00:06:32): norms and expectations.

(00:06:34): Chief among those is the idea that women should give certain things like sex and love.

(00:06:39): And so it's not some kind of random lone wolf act.

(00:06:45): This is a very deliberate act, to use a word that your letter writer used in opening.

(00:06:53): This was a very deliberate act of saying,

(00:06:56): when women don't give me certain things,

(00:06:58): I will lash out violently and

(00:07:00): And that makes sense because women need to be taught a lesson according to these

(00:07:05): values that say women are bad women and bad people for not being more giving,

(00:07:13): loving,

(00:07:14): attentive,

(00:07:15): and admiring.

(00:07:17): And that is insult logic, but it's also the logic of misogyny more broadly.

(00:07:21): Yeah.

(00:07:23): I just got this letter for my advice column that I'm going to publish in about a

(00:07:27): month of a woman who

(00:07:30): you know, it's kind of the typical story.

(00:07:32): She doesn't have household equity and she wants more fairness.

(00:07:36): So she confronts her husband and,

(00:07:38): you know,

(00:07:39): it's not really socially acceptable to say,

(00:07:42): well,

(00:07:42): you're,

(00:07:42): you're just less than me.

(00:07:43): So you have to do it.

(00:07:44): So he comes up with like the usual excuses and then she keeps pushing and he attacks her.

(00:07:50): And then her question to me was, what can I do to get him to understand?

(00:07:57): And

(00:07:59): My response was basically, oh, he understands just fine.

(00:08:02): That's why he attacked you,

(00:08:03): is he's escalating to the next thing that he can do to keep you in line.

(00:08:08): It's not a failure of understanding.

(00:08:10): And I just wish that we could get past that finally.

(00:08:16): I think that is exactly right.

(00:08:17): I have been railing for a long time against the idea that misogyny is viewing women

(00:08:23): as subhuman or less than human or somehow mindless objects.

(00:08:30): You know, a lot of forms of misogyny are completely contingent on ascribing to women

(00:08:35): agency and sexuality and the ability to do all sorts of distinctively human things

(00:08:43): but then insisting upon controlling those sorts of capacities and mental attributes

(00:08:50): and traits and so this idea that somehow it's all about ignorance or just not

(00:08:56): having thought it through completely

(00:08:59): Yeah, I think unfortunately that's wishful thinking.

(00:09:03): They understand very well.

(00:09:05): They just don't like what they're confronted with,

(00:09:08): which is the full humanity of women and the fact that we have autonomy and our own

(00:09:13): desires,

(00:09:14): our own needs,

(00:09:15): our own interests and equal rights.

(00:09:18): Yeah.

(00:09:18): Yeah.

(00:09:19): Okay.

(00:09:19): So I,

(00:09:20): on that point,

(00:09:21): I have sort of a philosophical question for you that you might not have an answer

(00:09:25): for,

(00:09:26): but you kind of have an answer for everything.

(00:09:28): So I think that you are the sage advice giver that we need,

(00:09:33): and maybe you'll,

(00:09:33): you'll have insight into this.

(00:09:35): This is a lot of pressure, but no pressure, you know,

(00:09:39): You're perfect, but no pressure.

(00:09:42): Okay,

(00:09:43): so there's this thing that I write about a lot where basically if we viewed women

(00:09:51): as equally valuable to men,

(00:09:53): all of the things that we dismiss as small concerns,

(00:09:56): like her doing more household labor than him,

(00:09:59): her getting less sleep than him,

(00:10:01): her not getting support after she gives birth,

(00:10:05): her not getting care when she's ill,

(00:10:07): all of these things that get dismissed as like,

(00:10:09): oh,

(00:10:09): those are just petty issues would quickly,

(00:10:14): it would quickly become clear that these are not petty issues because this is

(00:10:17): basically the theft and destruction of another person's life.

(00:10:20): So if we thought that life mattered as much,

(00:10:23): if we thought that time mattered as much,

(00:10:26): we would not see these as small things.

(00:10:28): We wouldn't see these things as, you know, well, you have to communicate better.

(00:10:31): You have to make him understand.

(00:10:33): So my question is regarding

(00:10:37): women who have internalized this idea that you can't ask men to sacrifice anything for you.

(00:10:45): And also,

(00:10:46): you know,

(00:10:47): the experts,

(00:10:47): the therapists,

(00:10:48): the coaches,

(00:10:49): the,

(00:10:49): you know,

(00:10:49): whoever people consult about these problems who just don't seem to see these issues

(00:10:55): as seriously.

(00:10:56): What is that?

(00:10:57): To me, it feels like it has to be seeing women as less than human, but yeah,

(00:11:02): you know, you've made me think differently about that issue, so maybe I'm wrong.

(00:11:08): Yeah, so that is a really important point, which I think is...

(00:11:14): often somewhat underappreciated in kind of post-enlightenment thinking.

(00:11:21): But some human beings who are recognized as human beings are allotted into service

(00:11:27): roles in a social hierarchy.

(00:11:29): So I think there is this kind of myth that really is of a piece with enlightenment

(00:11:34): thinking and which I found very powerful for a long time,

(00:11:37): too,

(00:11:38): That as soon as we see that someone is kind of the same as us in a particular way,

(00:11:44): say in being a human being,

(00:11:46): we will really take them just as seriously and value them just as much as a white

(00:11:54): adult,

(00:11:55): non-disabled,

(00:11:56): rich,

(00:11:57): cis white man.

(00:11:59): And I think that the history of how human beings treat each other really belies that point.

(00:12:06): One way to see it is that a lot of the worst things people do to each other are not

(00:12:12): just things which are incredibly brutal.

(00:12:18): They are things which...

(00:12:20): are distinctively human-to-human kinds of cruelty.

(00:12:24): So they are premised on the idea that this is a human being who should know better,

(00:12:30): who has the capacities to internalize rules and to follow norms,

(00:12:36): for example,

(00:12:37): patriarchal norms and expectations,

(00:12:39): and who,

(00:12:40): unlike a non-human animal who

(00:12:43): usually can't be expected to know or do better,

(00:12:46): it makes sense to punish a human being,

(00:12:49): to resent a human being,

(00:12:51): to lash out and try and correct a human being's behavior,

(00:12:56): because they do have these capacities that allow them to

(00:12:59): learn and grow and repent.

(00:13:02): And that's what I think we see oftentimes when it comes to misogyny that women

(00:13:06): face,

(00:13:07): which is the idea that they're human all to human sinners,

(00:13:12): rather than being seen as somehow incapable of learning or knowing better.

(00:13:18): But again, it's a sense that they're

(00:13:21): As I put it, sometimes they're not human beings who can just be in the world.

(00:13:27): They're human givers who have this particular social task of giving and loving and serving men.

(00:13:35): Yeah.

(00:13:35): Okay.

(00:13:36): That's really thoughtful and helpful.

(00:13:39): It's almost sort of like women earn their humanity through service.

(00:13:43): Yeah, that's right.

(00:13:44): Yeah.

(00:13:45): Yeah.

(00:13:46): And that in a way,

(00:13:48): our humanity is something that is not always embraced by people whose humanity has

(00:13:57): long been unquestioned.

(00:13:59): Like the other way to think about it is there's this idea that is very prevalent

(00:14:03): that as soon as you recognize someone as a human being,

(00:14:06): you're like,

(00:14:07): oh,

(00:14:07): good.

(00:14:08): They're in the circle.

(00:14:09): They're in the club.

(00:14:10): But why would that be true?

(00:14:12): Sometimes people's humanity is actually very inconvenient.

(00:14:16): If you were allotting them into a service role,

(00:14:21): thinking of them as someone who is entitled to do and feel the full range of human

(00:14:28): activities and feelings,

(00:14:31): there is something about that that can be very confronting to people who have

(00:14:37): viewed certain people as perhaps not less than human,

(00:14:41): but as particular kinds of humans with particular roles and abilities.

(00:14:46): With, again, this kind of service value.

(00:14:49): Yeah.

(00:14:49): I mean,

(00:14:49): I think that we can all generate like a dozen examples of that happening,

(00:14:53): whether we're talking about war or slavery or even like the way we treat children

(00:14:59): and the role we put them in.

(00:15:00): Yeah.

(00:15:01): Yeah.

(00:15:02): I mean, this idea of like disciplining people into the role they belong to.

(00:15:07): is kind of what your first book, Down Girl, is about.

(00:15:11): You know,

(00:15:11): you talk a lot about misogyny as this like disciplinary force,

(00:15:15): a way that men get what they want from women and from the larger world.

(00:15:20): I think we obviously see that in the opening vignette,

(00:15:24): but I think we also see that like in daily life all the time.

(00:15:27): I talk to women all the time who tell me about men who do things like weaponize bad

(00:15:32): moods to prevent their partners from asking for equitable distribution of household

(00:15:36): labor.

(00:15:37): or whose partners selectively verbally abuse them in the postpartum period,

(00:15:42): like so that they could get meals or house cleaning,

(00:15:47): which just shows like how little they value these women,

(00:15:49): that this is what they're willing to do.

(00:15:52): So talk to me about this idea of like misogyny as a disciplinary force and how it

(00:15:57): works and tell me more.

(00:16:00): Yeah,

(00:16:01): well,

(00:16:02): the definition that I give of misogyny is pushing back against the idea that

(00:16:06): misogyny is hatred for any and every woman.

(00:16:09): And it comes down to this idea that misogyny is something that is a disciplinary

(00:16:15): tool that often actually rewards quote unquote good female behavior while punishing

(00:16:23): people for being bad with respect to patriarchal norms and expectations.

(00:16:28): So when you put that idea together with the idea that misogyny is something women

(00:16:33): face rather than something that men feel,

(00:16:37): you get to the following definition,

(00:16:39): which I offer of misogyny,

(00:16:40): which is that misogyny is the hostility and hatred that girls and women face,

(00:16:47): which has this particular social role of policing and enforcing patriarchal norms

(00:16:53): and expectations.

(00:16:55): So oftentimes women will be targeted quite selectively for being a particular type

(00:17:01): of woman who's deemed bad by patriarchal lights,

(00:17:05): or they will be targeted for doing things that are deemed bad in particular social

(00:17:13): contexts.

(00:17:15): So it will be rewarding her when she's being a self-sacrificing,

(00:17:19): giving,

(00:17:20): loving,

(00:17:21): devoted wife and mother

(00:17:23): but punishing her whenever she asks for more or better or more equitable treatment.

(00:17:29): So I think that's kind of at the heart of misogyny that it involves punishing quote

(00:17:35): unquote bad women and oftentimes actually valorizing and lionizing women who are

(00:17:44): towing the line and who know their place within patriarchy.

(00:17:49): Yeah.

(00:17:49): Yeah.

(00:17:50): So I've,

(00:17:51): I feel like I've seen this recently in my own family, actually.

(00:17:57): None of the people who I'm about to talk about listen to my podcast so I can talk

(00:18:00): about them openly.

(00:18:02): So I had this very feminist grandmother who was not at all the trad wife.

(00:18:11): She bucked social norms.

(00:18:13): She always worked.

(00:18:15): She pushed back on everything.

(00:18:16): She taught me to be an activist.

(00:18:19): And she's been dead for like 20 years.

(00:18:21): But,

(00:18:22): you know,

(00:18:22): everybody always talks about like how much she would love,

(00:18:26): you know,

(00:18:26): my anti-male hate group,

(00:18:28): how thrilled she would be.

(00:18:31): And,

(00:18:31): but then Mother's Day came this year and multiple members of my family posted all

(00:18:38): this stuff about her as like a military spouse and

(00:18:42): As a wife,

(00:18:44): like not even mentioning her as a mother,

(00:18:46): because like she was a really good mother and motherhood is like skilled labor.

(00:18:49): So it's kind of like that's almost too good for her.

(00:18:52): But just like lionizing her as this perfect gender normative,

(00:18:58): like wifely person,

(00:19:00): you know,

(00:19:00): no mention she got a job,

(00:19:02): no mention that like she wrote poetry and was super educated and,

(00:19:06): you know,

(00:19:06): like raised all these feminist grandchildren who are out in the world terrorizing

(00:19:11): men.

(00:19:12): Um, it was, it was so weird.

(00:19:15): And I, I started like getting really upset about it.

(00:19:18): And I then like thought of you and I was like,

(00:19:21): they're slotting her into the role of like a good woman.

(00:19:25): Yeah.

(00:19:26): Earnestly mean this as a compliment to her.

(00:19:29): They're like rounding her up to in their mind, like better than what she was.

(00:19:34): Yeah.

(00:19:35): You know, that's so insidious and it really gets it this way that praise can be oppressive.

(00:19:40): So this is a concept that's recently been defended at book length by Jules Holroyd,

(00:19:46): who's a wonderful feminist philosopher.

(00:19:48): And it's the idea that it's not just punishment that can be coercive and

(00:19:54): controlling,

(00:19:55): though,

(00:19:55): of course it is.

(00:19:56): It's also that when we pick particular versions of a person or particular behaviors

(00:20:02): that are not their full suite of behaviors and hold those up for particular praise,

(00:20:09): that can actually have a role in saying,

(00:20:11): no,

(00:20:12): this is the only part of you that we value.

(00:20:14): The rest of it is a liability or worse.

(00:20:18): And that falsifying of people's memories, especially when they're gone.

(00:20:24): I'm sorry for your loss, by the way.

(00:20:25): She sounds amazing.

(00:20:28): But that way of falsifying the memory of someone can be a way of saying not just

(00:20:34): about her,

(00:20:34): but to future generations.

(00:20:36): Well, this is how you get remembered fondly.

(00:20:40): You do these things,

(00:20:41): the wife part,

(00:20:42): the mother part,

(00:20:43): the self-sacrificing part,

(00:20:45): the military spouse part.

(00:20:47): The fact that you were highly educated and autonomous and educated and feminist,

(00:20:53): all of that is unmentionable.

(00:20:55): Yeah.

(00:20:57): Well, and I think it's become even easier to do now that we have social media.

(00:21:00): So we can really like reify and reinforce those messages.

(00:21:04): It's just like really striking,

(00:21:06): especially if you now,

(00:21:08): I mean,

(00:21:09): most men don't bother to celebrate their spouses as mothers at all.

(00:21:13): But,

(00:21:13): you know,

(00:21:13): the ones who do,

(00:21:14): like if you look on Facebook,

(00:21:16): they're just kind of like sickening the messages.

(00:21:18): Like it's really just like celebrating women as like uteruses.

(00:21:22): Mm-hmm.

(00:21:22): And a pile, a bundle of services that are feminine coded.

(00:21:26): Like, she gives so much, she loves so much.

(00:21:29): And look, all of these are good things.

(00:21:31): I'm not anti-care or anti-love, of course.

(00:21:34): But you don't see fathers getting held up in the same way for the same things on Father's Day.

(00:21:40): You don't see the sense that they've somehow redeemed themselves for their careers and

(00:21:45): by being capable of care work,

(00:21:48): partly because oftentimes they're not doing nearly as much care work as they ought

(00:21:52): to be,

(00:21:52): but also because even when they are,

(00:21:55): it's not necessarily what we hold up as the be all end all.

(00:22:00): Yeah,

(00:22:00): so I think I was just thinking,

(00:22:03): Zon,

(00:22:03): when you were talking,

(00:22:04): I think a really good project for someone doing sort of discourse analysis would be

(00:22:10): to take eulogies of men versus women and see what they get celebrated for.

(00:22:15): Yeah.

(00:22:16): Yeah.

(00:22:17): It's interesting because I was thinking about that when I was reading these

(00:22:21): tributes to my grandmother because...

(00:22:24): she married someone who was like her,

(00:22:26): who was,

(00:22:27): you know,

(00:22:27): very intelligent and had like an activist spirit and all of that.

(00:22:32): And,

(00:22:32): you know,

(00:22:33): I remember the eulogy for my grandfather was all about like his military service

(00:22:37): and his cool jobs and like all the things that he did.

(00:22:40): And I remember like people saying about my grandmother,

(00:22:44): oh,

(00:22:45): she was a,

(00:22:45): she was a perfect Christ-like model of love.

(00:22:49): And it's like, well,

(00:22:50): Not if you were a racist being threatened with her beat stick.

(00:22:57): Good for her.

(00:22:58): Yeah.

(00:22:59): No, exactly.

(00:23:00): Yeah.

(00:23:00): So just, yeah, somebody, somebody should do that.

(00:23:03): Somebody more patient than me.

(00:23:06): Same.

(00:23:07): But yeah, totally.

(00:23:08): Okay.

(00:23:08): So I want to switch gears a little bit because on your sub stack,

(00:23:12): You've been talking a lot more about fascism.

(00:23:15): And I love it that you're doing this because I feel like you're like my feminist

(00:23:19): coach for survival.

(00:23:22): My feminist fascism life coach.

(00:23:26): Oh, no.

(00:23:27): I'm barely surviving.

(00:23:30): Well, you know, you're what we've got.

(00:23:32): So we're going to run with it.

(00:23:34): But the thing that I've started to notice is how fascism functions as this

(00:23:40): disciplinary tool,

(00:23:41): too.

(00:23:41): And not everyone is equally victimized under fascism.

(00:23:45): And the whole goal is to get people to fall in line.

(00:23:48): And it seems to track kind of perfectly with your theory of misogyny.

(00:23:52): Do you think so?

(00:23:54): Yeah, I really do.

(00:23:55): I don't think that we can really understand and see the full force of the ills of

(00:24:03): fascism without understanding misogyny as a model,

(00:24:07): because this idea of domination and having people

(00:24:12): forced into line such that it really becomes in their own interest to fall into a

(00:24:17): line,

(00:24:19): that is something that people practice within the family,

(00:24:22): within the nuclear family in particular.

(00:24:25): And so heteropatriarchy provides this model that then gets applied at the level of

(00:24:30): the nation state to our

(00:24:33): government,

(00:24:34): to our leadership,

(00:24:35): and to the way that citizens are constructed under fascism,

(00:24:41): I think is very much owing to this model of how we can control people within the

(00:24:45): family via a patriarchal head of a household.

(00:24:49): Yeah, yeah.

(00:24:50): Okay, so this reminds me of something that is happening in my city, Atlanta.

(00:24:55): And I don't know

(00:24:57): Well, I'll ask you, are you familiar with any of the like cop city stuff?

(00:25:02): Has that made its way to you?

(00:25:04): No.

(00:25:05): Okay.

(00:25:05): So I'll give you a brief overview because I think if you haven't heard about it,

(00:25:09): probably a lot of listeners have not.

(00:25:10): So Atlanta is a very progressive city.

(00:25:15): It's majority black.

(00:25:16): We almost always have black leaders.

(00:25:19): It's just this little like bastion of progressivism in the Deep South.

(00:25:23): And it's kind of always been that way.

(00:25:24): This was the birthplace of the civil rights movement, just tons and tons of activism.

(00:25:30): So it is no coincidence to me that a few years ago,

(00:25:36): the Atlanta Police Foundation decided that they were going to build a center to

(00:25:41): practice urban warfare in the middle of Atlanta.

(00:25:46): And so they annexed this historically Black neighborhood that was essentially a forest.

(00:25:52): And they've built this thing that they're calling Cop City.

(00:25:56): And they're,

(00:25:57): you know,

(00:25:58): they're practicing fighting citizens and killing civilians and shutting down

(00:26:03): protests there.

(00:26:04): So there's been a huge protest movement trying to stop it.

(00:26:09): I mean, our entire city has been like taken over by this protest.

(00:26:13): And it culminated...

(00:26:15): in the first killing ever of an environmental activist two years ago on the site

(00:26:23): where they were going to build Cop City.

(00:26:24): So like, what does this have to do with anything?

(00:26:26): Well,

(00:26:27): to me,

(00:26:29): what's been most interesting is that we have a progressive mayor,

(00:26:33): we have a progressive city council,

(00:26:35): you know,

(00:26:35): even like our police chiefs are supposed to be like pretty progressive.

(00:26:40): And they have all fallen in line with building this Cop City thing.

(00:26:45): And what has happened is that opposing this,

(00:26:48): this just obviously awful offensive thing,

(00:26:52): has become increasingly stigmatized,

(00:26:54): even in progressive movements.

(00:26:56): And so organizations that were sponsoring the opposition,

(00:27:01): that were providing legal aid to the opposition,

(00:27:05): are now not getting donors.

(00:27:08): They're being put on no donation lists.

(00:27:12): And among people who consider themselves activists,

(00:27:17): among people who have,

(00:27:19): you know,

(00:27:19): risked things for leftist causes.

(00:27:21): And so I feel like we've really seen the falling in line.

(00:27:26): And as a result of the falling in line,

(00:27:29): this cop city center that seemingly no one in the city wants has has finally opened

(00:27:35): just a couple of weeks ago.

(00:27:37): Oh my gosh, that's so awful.

(00:27:39): I mean, gosh, just the opposite of what we need.

(00:27:42): And it really reminds me of this point that I keep coming back to at the moment,

(00:27:48): which is that fascist actions are usually straight out of the domestic violence

(00:27:54): playbook.

(00:27:55): Yes.

(00:27:57): Like there's just a way in which they draw from these particular tactics of like

(00:28:02): coercive control.

(00:28:04): So you have

(00:28:05): The intimidation,

(00:28:06): the threats,

(00:28:08): the way that even the equipment and the uniforms set up this enormously threatening

(00:28:19): facade that can be used to control people.

(00:28:23): because it's scary to oppose that kind of force, fairly obviously.

(00:28:29): There's also the element of it that's reversing victim and offender.

(00:28:35): So almost inevitably,

(00:28:37): at the moment,

(00:28:39): the people who are the offenders in the kind of civil rights violations that we see

(00:28:48): being perpetrated by cops who

(00:28:52): are committing things like state executions.

(00:28:56): They are,

(00:28:56): in fact,

(00:28:56): the offenders,

(00:28:57): but they're presented in a way as victims who need to defend themselves and who are

(00:29:03): so vulnerable that they need this heavy duty military equipment in order to

(00:29:07): survive,

(00:29:08): despite the fact that in the vast majority of circumstances,

(00:29:12): they're the aggressors.

(00:29:13): They're the ones who are escalating.

(00:29:17): They're the ones who are out of control.

(00:29:20): And yeah,

(00:29:21): you also have this aspect of it too that I keep thinking about,

(00:29:24): which is the financial abuse and corruption.

(00:29:27): Like a really good way to keep people in line is to make sure you control the purse

(00:29:31): strings and that you can prevent them from doing certain things unless they do toe

(00:29:37): the line,

(00:29:37): unless they do know their place.

(00:29:40): Yeah, that's such a good point.

(00:29:41): I've been thinking a lot lately about how

(00:29:44): Money enables people to escape fascism, sometimes without leaving, but oftentimes by leaving.

(00:29:51): And so these threats to people's jobs,

(00:29:53): inflation,

(00:29:55): all of this really,

(00:29:56): really threatens people's lives in a way that I think is unfamiliar to a lot of

(00:30:01): people,

(00:30:01): maybe.

(00:30:02): Yeah.

(00:30:03): Yeah, and very familiar to a lot of women.

(00:30:06): So I see maybe a lack of tapping into that resource of we have people who both

(00:30:12): theorize this,

(00:30:13): but also people who have experienced that kind of coercive control and financial

(00:30:18): abuse,

(00:30:18): who could illuminate in a way the conditions of living under fascism,

(00:30:22): because they have lived under fascist rule at home.

(00:30:26): Oh, yeah, this is such an amazing point.

(00:30:30): I

(00:30:31): I hope you're going to write more about this because that's, that's totally what's happening.

(00:30:34): And even with like the victim blaming,

(00:30:36): we see how women get derided in family court as crazy and unhinged.

(00:30:41): It's always that they're crazy.

(00:30:42): And we do the same thing with protesters,

(00:30:44): you know,

(00:30:44): they just,

(00:30:44): they just lost control and they're a threat and they're a terrorist and all that

(00:30:48): kind of nonsense.

(00:30:49): Yeah.

(00:30:49): Yeah.

(00:30:50): That's a really good connection too.

(00:30:52): That's really important.

(00:30:53): All right.

(00:30:54): So speaking of domestic violence,

(00:30:56): I want to talk about Entitled a little bit.

(00:30:59): This is your second book where you talk about how men's entitlement affects women,

(00:31:04): which I love because you're centering women instead of,

(00:31:08): you know,

(00:31:08): centering men.

(00:31:11): I see so often in my own work how this entitlement manifests,

(00:31:15): but also how women internalize it as like a male right.

(00:31:19): So for example,

(00:31:21): most women will say that they want equity and that men and women should have equal

(00:31:25): opportunities and equal treatment and all of that.

(00:31:28): But they feel guilty about asking men to give anything up.

(00:31:32): And there's this idea that women asking men to give anything up is unfair.

(00:31:36): So it's like, sure, you can have household equity, but he can't be sleep deprived.

(00:31:41): He can't miss out on his hobbies.

(00:31:43): He can't.

(00:31:44): experience discomfort.

(00:31:46): If he's sick, he needs to rest, which are things we definitely don't believe about women.

(00:31:53): And I think that this has become like so normalized that it's not even really visible to us.

(00:31:57): It's just the way things are,

(00:31:59): which makes it even harder to disrupt because if you push on it,

(00:32:03): it's like you're pushing on the fabric of the cosmos.

(00:32:07): So I guess my question is like, one, how do we make that phenomenon as entitlement more

(00:32:15): visible?

(00:32:16): And what did you learn about how entitlement functions when you were writing your book?

(00:32:20): That's beautifully put, Zahn.

(00:32:23): I think there is this way of thinking about it that I've found very liberating in

(00:32:28): my own life,

(00:32:29): where you really have to see it as like two competing moral systems.

(00:32:36): So in the patriarchal system where one question that a lot of readers naturally had

(00:32:43): after my first book was like,

(00:32:45): what is patriarchy today?

(00:32:46): I think in a way that question is less salient now because we've seen just such

(00:32:55): revanchism that people are less skeptical.

(00:32:58): But at the time,

(00:32:59): when I published my first book in 2017,

(00:33:02): like just the week the Me Too movement was popularized after having,

(00:33:07): of course,

(00:33:08): been led by Tarana Burke for over a decade,

(00:33:11): people were wondering,

(00:33:12): well,

(00:33:12): what are these norms and expectations in this superficially more egalitarian,

(00:33:18): some people would say post-feminist moment where,

(00:33:21): I mean,

(00:33:22): no surprises,

(00:33:23): I don't think we're

(00:33:24): anything like a post-feminist or egalitarian society, unfortunately, yet.

(00:33:31): But the answer that I came up with and that really animated my second book was the

(00:33:35): idea that these norms and expectations are taking this form of men feeling entitled

(00:33:42): to certain goods from women,

(00:33:45): especially women who they're in relationship with.

(00:33:48): So he feels entitled to

(00:33:50): both in the kind of dating world of an Elliot Rodger,

(00:33:54): but also within patriarchal households after partnership or marriage,

(00:33:59): and especially after children,

(00:34:01): he feels entitled to sex,

(00:34:03): yes,

(00:34:04): but just as insidiously to love and service and labor and...

(00:34:10): material labor,

(00:34:12): emotional labor,

(00:34:13): domestic labor,

(00:34:15): reproductive labor,

(00:34:16): he feels entitled to children from her,

(00:34:20): namely his female partner,

(00:34:22): in ways that are not reciprocal.

(00:34:25): So instead of her being deemed entitled to

(00:34:29): love and affection and admiration in kind,

(00:34:32): she's deemed obligated to provide the goods that he's entitled to receive.

(00:34:38): And this sets up a really powerful moral framework where it makes sense of the fact

(00:34:43): that when a woman asks for what is actually morally required,

(00:34:49): namely equity,

(00:34:51): fairness within a household,

(00:34:53): she's pushing against moral ideas that are very entrenched.

(00:34:57): which say that not only is she not entitled to equal labor from her male partner,

(00:35:05): typically a husband,

(00:35:06): she is actually doing him wrong by insisting upon equity,

(00:35:11): according to this old framework that kind of sticks around.

(00:35:15): We have this moral hangover of

(00:35:18): from patriarchy that is both something some people still explicitly believe in,

(00:35:24): but it's also something that many people implicitly believe in,

(00:35:29): even when they think of themselves as more progressive.

(00:35:33): So yeah, the idea that women would feel really guilty and

(00:35:39): in a way,

(00:35:40): mean or unfair and subsequently ashamed for asking for what they are genuinely due

(00:35:46): to to get in moral reality.

(00:35:48): I think that makes sense in light of the fact that there is this old moral

(00:35:54): framework that says she's not entitled to those things.

(00:35:57): She's obligated to provide her husband with them.

(00:36:00): Yeah, that's that's such a good point.

(00:36:02): One of the things that I have seen that just

(00:36:05): Makes me like banana pants in my interactions with people is my husband and I like

(00:36:11): really have an equitable relationship,

(00:36:13): not like equitable except for this thing,

(00:36:15): which I think is what like a lot of people have.

(00:36:17): And so like I write about it in my work because I want people to know that this is not innate.

(00:36:22): This is a choice.

(00:36:23): Totally.

(00:36:24): And one of the pieces of feedback I get from readers and,

(00:36:29): like,

(00:36:29): acquaintances is,

(00:36:31): well,

(00:36:32): but then why is he with you?

(00:36:34): Like, why does this feel like a good deal to him?

(00:36:37): It's like, well, I'm great.

(00:36:39): Like, I'm awesome.

(00:36:40): Yes.

(00:36:41): I mean, yes.

(00:36:43): But I think,

(00:36:44): like,

(00:36:44): it goes – and these are,

(00:36:45): like,

(00:36:45): good people who don't see themselves as sexist and all of that and who like me and

(00:36:52): think I'm great –

(00:36:54): But it just goes to show that we really have great difficulty seeing women as

(00:36:59): anything other than appliances,

(00:37:01): basically.

(00:37:02): Yeah, bundles of convenient services.

(00:37:06): And yeah,

(00:37:06): I think distinctively human services,

(00:37:08): like a lot of the services are loving and giving,

(00:37:12): nurturing in ways that only human beings can do.

(00:37:14): You know, it's also interesting that comment because it really underestimates your husband.

(00:37:20): So I am often accused of being overly pessimistic about all of this,

(00:37:25): but I tell people in a way,

(00:37:28): a lot of what I'm saying springs from a place of hope.

(00:37:32): and trust that men can do better.

(00:37:35): And I know it's possible because it's actual.

(00:37:37): Like,

(00:37:38): my own husband,

(00:37:38): too,

(00:37:39): is a genuinely co-equal parent,

(00:37:42): sometimes more so when I'm in particularly busy work periods because I'm the mean

(00:37:46): breadwinner.

(00:37:48): And he is a just really...

(00:37:52): deeply serious feminist.

(00:37:54): And it sounds like your husband is too,

(00:37:56): in the sense that there are lots of men who don't want to take advantage of social

(00:38:01): permissions that say you could get away with an immoral system where you're

(00:38:06): exploiting someone.

(00:38:08): And some men...

(00:38:10): you know,

(00:38:10): and this is a real credit to them,

(00:38:12): will opt out of that and say,

(00:38:13): no,

(00:38:14): I want to live fairly and justly.

(00:38:16): And what's in it for me is partly that you're great and I'm great.

(00:38:21): But it's also that I think there are

(00:38:26): really people in the world who don't want to take advantage of oppressive and

(00:38:30): exploitative systems and movements like feminist social progressive movements and

(00:38:37): anti-racist movements rely on there being people who don't want to take advantage

(00:38:43): of unjust privilege.

(00:38:44): They want to help dismantle it.

(00:38:47): Absolutely.

(00:38:47): Well, and like, so I'm really skeptical of this whole like feminism is for men too.

(00:38:53): Feminism benefits men too.

(00:38:56): Because like, yes, it does.

(00:38:57): But men should be feminists even if it doesn't benefit them.

(00:39:02): But I do think like it's really important to help people understand that

(00:39:06): participating in a system like this

(00:39:09): is inherently degrading and it degrades the oppressors and the participants just as

(00:39:14): much as it degrades the victims.

(00:39:16): And also the thing that I see with men constantly is that misogyny erodes their

(00:39:23): ability to think clearly and critically.

(00:39:26): It like turns them into not...

(00:39:29): fully human.

(00:39:30): They're just like replicating patriarchy.

(00:39:33): And like, who wants that?

(00:39:35): Who really wants to live that way?

(00:39:37): Like,

(00:39:37): don't you want to live a full life and,

(00:39:40): you know,

(00:39:41): die without regrets,

(00:39:42): like having known that you've had

(00:39:44): meaningful relationships?

(00:39:45): I mean, I don't know, call me crazy, but that seems like a better way to be.

(00:39:48): Yeah,

(00:39:49): well,

(00:39:50): certainly the leadership of this country is not an advertisement for the clarity of

(00:39:54): thinking engendered by imbibing patriarchal norms.

(00:39:58): I think, yeah, we really need to separate out two things here.

(00:40:02): There's this idea that feminism helps men because...

(00:40:07): There are various self-interested reasons for men to do the right thing.

(00:40:11): And that can be true, but it can also be false.

(00:40:14): Like there are things that men will genuinely have to give up when it comes to a

(00:40:20): more egalitarian household or state.

(00:40:26): And yes,

(00:40:26): there are also benefits that are real in their own interests,

(00:40:31): like having real meaningful relationships with their children,

(00:40:36): which was much less possible under patriarchal law.

(00:40:41): But the really important thing is that

(00:40:45): It's the moral reasons that trump all of those self-interested reasons.

(00:40:51): Just as there are moral reasons for people who are white like us to divest from

(00:40:56): racism,

(00:40:58): there are moral reasons that are overriding for men to divest from patriarchy.

(00:41:03): And so whether or not it's in their individual self-interest in any given case,

(00:41:08): morally speaking,

(00:41:10): they ought to be feminists.

(00:41:11): And that's enough.

(00:41:13): It's actually enough.

(00:41:15): I love that.

(00:41:16): That is enough.

(00:41:17): So my husband and I recorded a podcast,

(00:41:19): I think two nights ago where he was drinking a beer and just like really talking

(00:41:25): about things.

(00:41:26): And like one of the things that he mentioned was this very small interaction we had

(00:41:31): where he was taking the toddler to her little pre-K class and he had like forgotten

(00:41:36): her baby potty.

(00:41:37): And so like we had to like negotiate how we were going to get the baby potty to her.

(00:41:41): And what he pointed out is that like every step of the way,

(00:41:44): there were like all of these excuses that he could use to make me do the work.

(00:41:49): And any of them by themselves would seem like genuine excuses.

(00:41:55): It wouldn't seem like misogyny.

(00:41:56): Like, oh, I have a deposition and I can't be late.

(00:41:58): Or I have this thing and I have to be ready.

(00:42:00): Or I already did most of the driving.

(00:42:03): And like all of those seem perfectly reasonable.

(00:42:06): Yeah.

(00:42:07): And then like,

(00:42:08): if you just continue making all of those perfectly reasonable excuses,

(00:42:11): it just adds up to like a lifetime of the woman doing everything.

(00:42:16): So I think like,

(00:42:18): I think men need to consider what reasonable sounding things they argue that are

(00:42:23): not either reasonable or fair.

(00:42:26): I think that is exactly right.

(00:42:27): And I think that as women,

(00:42:30): we often need to ask ourselves to like,

(00:42:33): is this merely tolerable as a domestic arrangement or is this genuinely fair and

(00:42:39): equitable?

(00:42:39): And not to victim blame,

(00:42:41): but just to say in a liberating spirit,

(00:42:44): like if you're not getting as much sleep as your male partner,

(00:42:47): you're entitled to that.

(00:42:49): You're entitled to more sleep.

(00:42:51): And if you're not getting as much leisure time, you are entitled to that.

(00:42:55): And entitlement to me is not a dirty word.

(00:42:58): Like I wanted to make that clear in my second book.

(00:43:00): People are genuinely entitled to lots of things.

(00:43:03): We're entitled to respect and to be treated non-exploitatively.

(00:43:08): And,

(00:43:09): you know,

(00:43:09): we're entitled to good health care and to be cared for at home in a reciprocal and

(00:43:14): mutually supportive way by loved ones.

(00:43:17): It's just that women often get...

(00:43:20): really overburdened with obligation, particularly when it comes to caregiving.

(00:43:25): And we get really short shrift when it comes to what we're genuinely entitled to,

(00:43:30): especially from male partners who,

(00:43:32): yeah,

(00:43:33): I loved the way that you put this before.

(00:43:36): And it's also so important and something you've done to highlight so beautifully in your work.

(00:43:43): The idea that women are just not getting cared for when they're ill or when they've

(00:43:49): just had a child,

(00:43:51): when they have just had major abdominal surgery in many cases or severe pelvic

(00:43:55): trauma from birth,

(00:43:57): we're still oftentimes not getting that basic care and love and support that should

(00:44:03): be part of every healthy relationship in a reciprocal way over time.

(00:44:09): Yeah, absolutely.

(00:44:10): All right.

(00:44:11): So we're talking about all the reasons that men should be feminists,

(00:44:15): that it would be better if they were feminists,

(00:44:17): that it makes sense for them to be feminists.

(00:44:20): And yet most of them are not.

(00:44:23): And even the ones who are, are often extremely disappointing and don't behave as feminists.

(00:44:30): So I want to talk a little bit about Bernard Williams, because I think that

(00:44:37): an internalist position kind of helps explain a little bit of this.

(00:44:40): So let me try to explain,

(00:44:43): and then you can correct me,

(00:44:45): chastise me,

(00:44:46): and expand on what I've had to say.

(00:44:48): So you advocate for this internalist position, which is basically that

(00:44:54): A person does not have sufficient reason to endorse a moral claim if they cannot

(00:44:58): internally justify that moral claim.

(00:45:00): So like no specific piece of evidence or fact about the world necessarily motivates

(00:45:05): action independent of what a person thinks or wants.

(00:45:11): You wrote about this early in your career.

(00:45:12): I think we see this a lot in patriarchy and I think we see this idea in your work.

(00:45:17): So say something about that, Kate.

(00:45:20): Well, I think you put it beautifully, Zahn.

(00:45:22): I think there is this powerful idea that we do find in Bernard Williams,

(00:45:27): which is called internalism about reasons.

(00:45:31): And it's basically the idea that you don't have a reason to do something as an

(00:45:36): agent unless in some sense that speaks to something you care about or desire or are

(00:45:42): motivated by.

(00:45:44): And one of his examples of this,

(00:45:46): which I now suspect actually got me into thinking about internalism and being very

(00:45:52): sympathetic to this position and ultimately defending it,

(00:45:55): is the case of the callous husband.

(00:45:58): So this is in his 1995 paper, Internalism, about reasons and the obscurity of blame.

(00:46:06): So it's a follow up to his original piece, Internal and External Reasons.

(00:46:09): Yeah.

(00:46:10): And he has this husband who we're trying to motivate to be nicer to his wife,

(00:46:18): even though he treats her quite brutally.

(00:46:21): And Williams has us imagine ourselves into the position of someone trying to reason

(00:46:26): with this husband and saying,

(00:46:29): but don't you understand?

(00:46:31): It's your wife.

(00:46:32): You have reasons to be nicer to your wife.

(00:46:35): And the callous husband responds, don't you understand?

(00:46:39): I don't care.

(00:46:40): I really don't care.

(00:46:42): And what Williams says about this case is that we can say various things about this

(00:46:48): husband,

(00:46:48): that he's nasty,

(00:46:50): brutal,

(00:46:51): sexist,

(00:46:52): other disadvantageous things.

(00:46:55): But the one thing that we can't say anymore is that he has a reason to be nicer.

(00:47:01): And the thought,

(00:47:02): I think,

(00:47:02): or so I've argued,

(00:47:03): is that rational conversation has met with its limits there.

(00:47:08): He doesn't have a reason because he's not open to rational persuasion on this

(00:47:14): point,

(00:47:15): because there's nothing in his heart,

(00:47:17): as it were,

(00:47:18): in his,

(00:47:19): as Williams puts it,

(00:47:20): motivational set,

(00:47:22): that you can kind of appeal to,

(00:47:24): to get him into this way of seeing things are right.

(00:47:29): So it's not that he's somehow okay,

(00:47:31): he's a bad guy,

(00:47:33): but we have really hit up against something that matters,

(00:47:38): which is he genuinely doesn't care about being nicer to his wife in ways that mean

(00:47:44): rational persuasion and reasonable conversation is off the table.

(00:47:49): And so we have to do something else.

(00:47:51): We have to, for example, try to get

(00:47:55): his wife to leave this guy rather than trying to persuade him to be nicer.

(00:48:01): It's time for her to sever relations with him,

(00:48:05): maybe for us to sever relations with him,

(00:48:08): at least until he does care about what he ought to care about.

(00:48:13): I love it that a man writing in 1995

(00:48:18): seemed to appreciate what's happening with this particular dynamic more than a lot

(00:48:24): of the,

(00:48:24): like,

(00:48:25): feminist therapists and influencers,

(00:48:28): self-proclaimed experts,

(00:48:30): seem to now,

(00:48:31): 30 years later,

(00:48:33): like,

(00:48:33): can we just be done with this argument?

(00:48:35): Can we just accept that he doesn't care, that it's not that he doesn't understand, or that he...

(00:48:42): Need something explained to him?

(00:48:45): Can that one be done?

(00:48:46): Can you speak on behalf of philosophy and declare that debate over, please?

(00:48:50): I think that's so right.

(00:48:52): I mean, I was really struck when I read Jancy Dunn's book.

(00:48:57): how not to hate your husband after kids,

(00:49:00): which I have a whole chapter in entitled about it because it made me so sad.

(00:49:06): And yeah,

(00:49:07): the basic premise of the book is her husband does less than 5% of the child rearing

(00:49:15): and domestic labor,

(00:49:17): despite the fact that they both have very similar full-time careers as freelance

(00:49:22): writers.

(00:49:23): So it's radically unfair

(00:49:25): And she's trying not to hate him instead of like divorcing his ass and moving on.

(00:49:30): And I mean, I don't blame her.

(00:49:33): It's understandable.

(00:49:34): But I also feel like so frustrated throughout this book because the project is how

(00:49:40): not to hate him instead of how to free yourself from this completely unfeasible

(00:49:46): situation.

(00:49:47): And they eventually go to a marriage therapist who says, oh, here's the problem.

(00:49:52): He's entitled.

(00:49:53): No, I'm on your side, Jancy, the wife who wrote the book.

(00:49:59): He says, like, this isn't a situation where there's, you know, wrong on both sides.

(00:50:06): He is irredeemably entitled.

(00:50:09): And yes, like, you could do this or that differently, but...

(00:50:14): basically he needs to change or else um and I don't think he ever does and I don't

(00:50:22): think that ever materializes into a situation that does seem feasible like the book

(00:50:31): ends with um yeah she's still doing almost all the labor and she's still crying and

(00:50:37): um

(00:50:39): Yeah,

(00:50:39): she still needs the box of tissues that the therapist handed her in the office

(00:50:43): because it's unsustainable.

(00:50:47): And she is rightly furious and sad about the fact that her husband simply does not

(00:50:54): care about being nicer to his wife.

(00:50:57): Yeah, it's so sad.

(00:50:59): And there are so many books like this.

(00:51:01): I remember years ago,

(00:51:05): I would read a feminist book where she mentioned in passing her husband,

(00:51:10): not

(00:51:11): participating in household labor and parenting.

(00:51:14): And I would get like so frustrated because it was like, but why?

(00:51:18): Like you writing as a feminist don't even see women as like fully human,

(00:51:22): that you're accepting this.

(00:51:24): And it took me a long time to understand how incredibly victim blaming that is

(00:51:29): because what's really happening is that there are so many structural barriers to

(00:51:33): women leaving that I think women have to play a lot of tricks on themselves to just

(00:51:37): accept these horrible circumstances and

(00:51:41): But I just wish we could all collectively say, fuck all of those dudes.

(00:51:46): Let's stop talking about why they're doing it and start talking about how we build

(00:51:50): a system where women can safely leave.

(00:51:54): That is so right.

(00:51:55): I mean, I've been really radicalized on this by Liz Lenz's book.

(00:51:59): My friend Liz wrote the book, This American Ex-Wife, which is fantastic.

(00:52:04): And it's really just making the argument that historically and currently marriage

(00:52:11): does not serve women when it is heterosexual marriage,

(00:52:15): at least.

(00:52:16): And that, yeah, rather than all of these band-aids and stopgap solutions,

(00:52:23): If you're in a relationship that is deeply inequitable and where you're not able to

(00:52:27): flourish and grow,

(00:52:28): then it's not to say you can necessarily leave because of these deep sources of

(00:52:35): structural barriers to doing so.

(00:52:38): But ideally, that would be what would happen.

(00:52:41): And we need to work towards making it the case that that's both de-stigmatized and

(00:52:45): also that it's financially viable.

(00:52:49): So Liz Linz's book has been particularly gratifying to me because I read,

(00:52:54): I think it was her last book.

(00:52:55): There might've been one in between the two, Belabored.

(00:52:59): And I remember getting so upset about the marriage dynamics she talked about in

(00:53:06): that book that I was actually having nightmares about her and her husband.

(00:53:11): Oh, wow.

(00:53:12): And I had to stop reading it.

(00:53:14): And I was just like, please,

(00:53:17): please, can we leave this man behind?

(00:53:19): And so when this book came out and the man had been left behind, I was just triumphant.

(00:53:26): I was so happy because it was like the last book set up the plot for this one,

(00:53:31): even though it's,

(00:53:32): you know,

(00:53:32): another human being's life rather than a plot.

(00:53:35): But it's so good.

(00:53:36): I had a similar feeling when,

(00:53:38): I mean,

(00:53:39): even though I knew the ending,

(00:53:42): which in a way is announced by the title,

(00:53:45): This American Ex-Wife,

(00:53:47): When she describes leaving for 24 hours for,

(00:53:52): I think it's a work commitment and she leaves her two kids with her husband and

(00:53:58): then she comes home and the trash is just on the floor.

(00:54:02): Like he hasn't taken out the trash.

(00:54:03): And so like garbage juice is leaking all over the floor and

(00:54:07): where it leaves a stain.

(00:54:08): I just like threw the book across the room because I'm like,

(00:54:12): what grown adult doesn't take out the fucking trash?

(00:54:16): I mean,

(00:54:17): it's just like having these amazing,

(00:54:21): brilliant,

(00:54:22): incredible women in relationships where just the most basic reciprocity and

(00:54:29): self-care and care for children and households is somehow meant to be beyond full

(00:54:35): grown adults because

(00:54:37): They're they happen to have a particular gender like that is wild to me.

(00:54:42): That is absolutely wild.

(00:54:44): Well,

(00:54:45): and it becomes so clear how this is a deliberate act of like undermining her life's

(00:54:51): work and her potential.

(00:54:52): And this is what I see all the time is these brilliant women who.

(00:54:58): are at the top of their career.

(00:55:00): I've talked to two women recently,

(00:55:02): two different women who are math professors who have been heavily recruited by

(00:55:09): universities to move across the country or across the globe.

(00:55:13): And these universities are just like throwing money at them because they're so good

(00:55:17): at their work.

(00:55:19): And then the men at home are just like digging at them constantly.

(00:55:24): And I'm like, these women have done so much with so little support.

(00:55:28): Like what more would they do if they were either single or with a partner who

(00:55:33): actually supported them?

(00:55:34): Like,

(00:55:36): we're just like,

(00:55:37): we're really not even getting to see everything that women are capable of because

(00:55:40): we're just like,

(00:55:42): collectively pulling on their feet constantly.

(00:55:45): Yeah.

(00:55:46): Yeah.

(00:55:46): That's totally right.

(00:55:47): And it's tragic.

(00:55:48): I mean,

(00:55:49): just think about the loss of talent and just all of the women who could be doing

(00:55:55): those amazing things or doing more amazing things or simply having more fun.

(00:56:00): But for this kind of patriarchal

(00:56:04): situation, which again, you're totally right, is not inevitable.

(00:56:07): I'm pretty optimistic that lots of people could do better.

(00:56:13): And even if the husband,

(00:56:16): the callous husband of William's imagination doesn't care,

(00:56:19): I think a lot more boys could be raised to care and to really take this seriously

(00:56:24): earlier on,

(00:56:24): in which case I think they could be motivated to not want to exploit women they're

(00:56:31): in relationship with.

(00:56:33): Yeah.

(00:56:33): Yeah, I'm seeing it already.

(00:56:35): So my oldest is in second grade.

(00:56:37): And I'm starting to see like a little bit of the entitlement with boys,

(00:56:42): especially with like crushes.

(00:56:43): And my daughter is just like amazing at setting firm boundaries.

(00:56:48): It's just a remarkable thing to see.

(00:56:51): and like i'm seeing these boys learn it's you know that's imagine that imagine like

(00:56:58): having boundaries around your behavior teaching you and they're like oh well i

(00:57:02): didn't i didn't realize that was hurting you like okay let's do it differently and

(00:57:07): it's like they're seven and eight and they they can do it so we're just about done

(00:57:13): we didn't even get to talk about your latest book on shrinking and

(00:57:16): So I'm going to put it in the show notes.

(00:57:18): But if you would like to say a little bit about that book, please do.

(00:57:22): Oh, yeah, sure.

(00:57:24): So the premise of it is basically that you can't understand misogyny without also

(00:57:29): understanding fat phobia,

(00:57:30): because,

(00:57:31): look,

(00:57:32): I think fat phobia affects...

(00:57:34): really almost all of us in some ways,

(00:57:37): but it affects people who are fat and female,

(00:57:40): particularly insidiously.

(00:57:43): And that's because think about it like this.

(00:57:45): If patriarchy was deliberately designing a tool to control us and make us small,

(00:57:54): meek,

(00:57:55): quiet,

(00:57:56): hungry,

(00:57:57): spending enormous amounts of time,

(00:57:59): energy,

(00:57:59): money and bandwidth on

(00:58:02): this,

(00:58:02): in fact,

(00:58:03): futile task of shrinking our bodies,

(00:58:05): because for most people,

(00:58:07): we can lose weight temporarily,

(00:58:09): but the weight comes back nearly inexorably,

(00:58:11): according to most studies.

(00:58:13): Yeah, it would be a perfect tool for social control.

(00:58:16): So in order to think seriously about

(00:58:20): patriarchy and misogyny I think we also need to think about fatness and think about

(00:58:24): ways in which women are told to be thin in a way that isn't just shaming or makes

(00:58:33): us feel bad about ourselves it also means that we lose so much life and we get so

(00:58:40): controlled by this goal that um

(00:58:44): Yeah,

(00:58:44): we're not able to be truly liberated,

(00:58:46): I think,

(00:58:47): until we see our bodies as valid,

(00:58:50): regardless of size and shape.

(00:58:53): Yeah, it's a great book.

(00:58:54): It's very research intense.

(00:58:57): If you find yourself bristling at the idea of fat phobia,

(00:59:00): that's a sign that you really need to read the book.

(00:59:04): I think those are the folks who really need this book the most are the people who

(00:59:09): either think that they're bad because they haven't lost weight or think that other

(00:59:13): people are bad because they haven't lost weight.

(00:59:16): Totally.

(00:59:18): Thank you so much.

(00:59:19): This has been amazing.

(00:59:20): You are amazing.

(00:59:22): I'm so glad to talk to you.

(00:59:24): Thank you so much.

(00:59:25): This has just been such a fun and in all the best ways confronting conversation.

(00:59:32): So I'm just glad to be confronting these truths with you and your audience.

(00:59:37): Well, thank you.

(00:59:38): To everyone else,

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(01:00:01): Thank you so much, as always, for listening, and I will be back in two weeks.