Christians get so hung up and have so much fear

about doing the wrong thing

that they end up not doing anything. From a young

age I knew that God was

calling me to be involved with music. I didn't

know what that meant at the time.

Yes, I have these desires to be in a band and go

do things, but I'm just gonna

delight myself in God and prioritize relationship

with Him. It was like me on

my face before God saying like, "You brought me

here. This is just

His story. I'm along for the ride. You got to

show up, God." You look around at

each other, the other people in the band, and you

ask, "Should we still be

doing this? This is really hard and exhausting."

This is the Made to Advance podcast. I'm your

host, Brian Aulick. We're here to

inspire and equip you for your best future.

Welcome, everybody. It is so

good to be with you today. Before we get started

with our conversation, I

want to ask you a favor. If you could rate and

review Made to Advance, that

would be a big help to our team. It helps us get

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Please rate and review us. Also, if you got any

thoughts you want to share,

we've got an email. It's mta@engeddychurch.com.

We would absolutely love to hear from you. Today

I have Ben Kassica with me.

Ben is a filmmaker and producer with a passion

for creating purposeful

stories in film and television. After spending 10

years as the lead guitarist

for Skillet and selling over 10 million records,

Ben launched SkiesFall, a

production and entertainment company that has

helped Fortune 500

companies and many others get their message out.

Ben's latest project is the

feature film Homestead, which I am excited to

talk with him about today.

I want to say welcome to the show, Ben. It's

great to have you. Thank you, man.

Good to be here. Excited for it. You're joining

us from LA. I'm in LA or

just outside LA. Yeah, I'm Thousand Oaks. Well, I

can promise you that

whatever great temperatures you might be having

now, they're the same in

West Michigan right now. The weather is perfect

here. Is it? I haven't left lately.

I'm joking. Hey, I've got a question for you.

This is just a fun question I

wanted to ask. Obviously, the Skillet days are

behind you and all that, but I

am curious now that you're out of the

professional musician band mode,

do you get your guitar out much in jam or is it

like, "Eh, not so much anymore"?

I haven't in a while, but I just reorganized my

office and I put my

guitar right here next to me. I haven't touched

it yet.

I don't do it too much. I still songwrite, so I

do worship

songwriting with some friends if we do writing

rooms and things like that.

Then over COVID, I helped launch a record label

called Tribal Records, which

was a whole thing with Maverick City Music. I got

more involved with the

business side, but I love worship music. I love

music. It's a huge part of

my life, but I don't really get out in jam. It's

not

really something I do anymore, which is sad. I

feel like fans are disappointed by

that. Did you enjoy the stage part of it? I mean,

some artists, they

love writing. They love that aspect of creating

with the band and the

actual stage time is part of it, but it's not as

their first love.

Others, it's just the opposite. They love being

in front of the crowd and

all that. For you, do you miss that side of it?

The energy of a show when you're about to go out

and play for 10,000 people or

20,000 people is pretty incredible, to be honest.

It's fun, but

my favorite part about being in the band was

traveling. Not necessarily the

shows, but every day you're in a new place. There's

new coffee shops, new

towns, etc. Then the studio was kind of my

favorite thing, to be honest.

It's because you're just endlessly creating,

experimenting, trying

things, and then stuff works, stuff doesn't. Fast

forward six months,

a year, people are listening to the song on the

radio that you created.

That's a cool thing as a creative. It's pretty

satisfying.

Totally. What's going on with Tribal these days?

It's funny, our team here

at Enghedi just signed a distribution deal with

Capital. I definitely have

paid attention to Tribal over the years, and of

course, particularly because of

Mav City. What's new with Tribal these days? I'm

not as involved, to be

honest. My friend Tony Brown, he's the one that

started that and Maverick City.

I was more coming in as a creative director and

kind of a business

mentor friend. They're still releasing albums and

producing things.

My friend's not involved as much now, so I'm kind

of back down as well.

They're constantly signing new artists, using

social media to really

find a lot of new talent. They're busy at work

doing what

they do. It's cool. I'd love to jump in your

story. I think that

your background and your journey is utterly

fascinating. I know that our

listeners will as well. Let's just kind of start

out at the beginning, if we

could. I'd love for you to share a little bit

about your growing up. You

had a unique growing up experience that led to a

unique career. Let's

hear a little bit about that. Yeah, absolutely.

Very abnormal life and

even childhood. I remember being a young kid,

wishing that I had a

normal life, but my parents were just abnormal in

the best way possible.

The two kind of pillars for me growing up was

excellence in the arts.

My dad went to Juilliard. He played in the St.

Louis Symphony as

principal percussionist, so one of the top 50

percussionists of all time

type of thing. Then my mom played flute in

orchestras as well. I grew up

around this is excellence in the art. This is

when you're the

best at something. This is the platform and the

rooms that you can get into.

I saw that and I saw what it took to do that.

Then on the other side of

it, the other pillar was really just listening to

the Holy Spirit, being led

by God. My parents are the radical Jesus people.

If they were on here by

the end of this podcast, they would pray for you

and you'd probably be

rocked by God in some kind of way. Very

foundational to a kid that's

wanting to do something that matters and is

meaningful in life.

From a young age, I knew that God was calling me

to be involved with music.

I didn't know what that meant at the time. The

path for me was becoming

excellent at an instrument. I started playing

guitar at 12. I started with

classical guitar, then acoustic, and then got

into electric. I just practiced

three or four hours a day, which for somebody

that age was pretty abnormal.

I knew that it would eventually open a door for

me. On a

spiritual note, the corner of my life verses is

Psalm 37, verse 4. It says,

"Delight yourself in God, and he'll give you the

desires of your heart."

I took that to heart even as a young teenager. I

said, "Yes, I have

these desires to be in a band and go do things,

but I'm just gonna delight

myself in God. I'm gonna choose to find delight

and prioritize

relationship with Him over the desires of, 'I

want to be in a band,' or, 'I want to

do cool things in life.'" Pretty quickly into

that, I had the

opportunity to try out for Skillet. At the time,

Skillet was a smaller Christian

band signed to a tiny record label. I was a huge

fan of theirs. I was 12

years old going to their shows, 13 years old.

When I had the

opportunity to try out, it was a very weird thing.

I'm like, "Only God

could have orchestrated this, and I feel like

this is gonna happen." I was

16. I was still in high school. I tried out, and

then literally two weeks later, I

was on tour. I think our first month was 25 shows

in 30 days.

At the time, we were playing 200 shows a year. It

was pretty

non-stop, to be honest. It was a pretty wild

experience.

At the time, it was a small Christian band. We

ended up getting signed to Atlantic

Records and transitioning, crossing over, as they

say, into the mainstream

world. We got to experience the mainstream rock

world, which was a

very dark place. We really became a light in that

place. Some of my favorite

memories were literally doing worship songs at

the darkest rock

shows you could imagine. Everyone's drunk and

high, and very scandalous

dressed people. Then here we are singing a song

that's very

clearly a worship song. People are getting wrecked

by God.

That was a really, really cool thing to

experience. I've not had a

normal life. I joined when I was 16. I did it for

about 10 and a half years.

During that time, I started falling in love with

other types of media as

well. I got a little video camera and was editing

little video clips

and doing what we called a video podcast. It was

more like a vlog type of

thing. I fell in love with creating and

storytelling. I started a

company called Sky's Fall that ultimately was the

company that I

run now. We were doing music and producing. It

was kind of just all

things media. We were like, "How do we do this at

a high level?"

I knew at some point I didn't want to be in the

band. As great as it

was, I toured for 10 years. After 10 years of

touring, it's like, "Okay,

I'm going to see what else there is in life." It

can be a lonely place being

on tour, for sure. I'm curious, going back to a

little bit of your

childhood. You've got these parents who are these,

particularly your dad,

but both just accomplished musicians. Yet, they're

also these passionate

Jesus followers. They're very tuned in to the

Holy Spirit's voice. I know

you were homeschooled, so there's that angle too.

Did your parents ever

talk about... Did you say that he played in the

San Francisco Orchestra,

was it? St. Louis.

Or Symphony? St. Louis. St. Louis. Did they ever

talk about feeling out of

step with culture or different? Or was it like, "No,

they're musicians. They

can just flow in a super unique way." It strikes

me that there were probably

a lot of people around them that were like them,

or maybe there were. I don't

know. I think they were okay with being different.

They were in the hippie

Jesus people movement of things. They were fine

being different. I think they

treated it like it was normal. All my friends,

their parents were doctors,

lawyers, and plumbers, and whatever. During the

day, my parents were just

practicing their instruments loudly in the house.

If friends would stay over

on Saturday morning at 7 a.m., it was like you

hear a drum set being played

very loudly. Then they'd work at night. They'd go

out and leave at 6 p.m. and

go play a show in downtown St. Louis. It was

normal to me, but different, for

sure. I really think that set the foundation for

leaving at such a young

age and going to play in a band on tour. I don't

think it would have been

really jarring for me, but it felt like a natural

progression having grown up the

way that I did. Yeah, that makes sense. When you

look back at being

homeschooled during those years, do you think the

experience of being

homeschooled affected much of the trajectory of

your life and career, or

is it like, "No, I just happen to get my

education in a less common way"? Looking

back, it was essential for me. It was funny. I

did a podcast recently that was

all about alternative education. Man, it was

amazing. The

fact that I left home and really became a full-time

career

person at 16, that would have not been possible

had I been in traditional

school. Even being skilled on the guitar at a

level that could play

professionally probably wouldn't have happened

had I been in school. I

remember you start school at whatever time, 8 a.m.

in the morning, and by

11 a.m., 11.30, I was done for the day. I did all

the classes and all

the homework and all the things, and then I had

time to go pursue other

things. The big, big lesson my parents taught me

was how to learn. Whether

that's with music or whether that's eventually

got into film,

I'm willing to just full steam ahead, go try

things and experiment.

I think I learned that when I was being homeschooled

by the, "Okay, it's noon. I'm

bored." My parents were like, "Well, go find

something to do and go figure out

things." That's what I did, and I think that was

a foundational thing.

I'm a huge fan of being homeschooled. It's become

a lot cooler than when I

was doing it. They would have hoedown dances and

stuff, the

groups we were part of. Now, there's actually

really cool branding and

cool ... Moms are getting together with other

moms. It's a

cool thing now. At the time, it was a little bit

obscure, but I think we were

fine with that. How long did it take you? At what

age did you get to ...

You said earlier when you were younger, you were

like, "I wish we

could just be a little bit more normal." At what

point did you go, "Man, I'm kind of

glad for my abnormal background. It turns out God's

using this." Probably when I was

19 or 20. It took a few years. I went through the

teenage angst, but the

"I don't want to be home anymore. I'm so glad I'm

on tour" phase of things.

Then after you experience life a little bit and

heartbreak a little bit and you

realize that life can be difficult, I think I

started realizing

how grateful I was for my parents and my family

and helped walk me through a lot

of dark times. Being on tour is not easy.

It was definitely fun, but not easy spiritually.

It's difficult physically.

You're just exhausted all the time. To come back

home to a family that

was fully behind me and praying for me, that was

pretty essential to

the success for me. You can see why so many

artists have a tough time.

As you described, some of the demands and

difficulties of the touring life. You had

all of this supportive family to back you up and

be there for you and an

incredible spiritual heritage to build off of.

You can see why so many folks get

into trouble on the road. I'm sure you probably

saw that with different bands

that you'd cross paths with where they don't have

that network or

heritage. All of a sudden, all the difficulties

and not always great

opportunities that come with road life hit them

and they're just not ready.

Would you say that's accurate? Yeah, I think the

thing that we saw often was

when you're a teenager, you start a band. Some of

those

bands, they get signed pretty quickly. For

Christian bands,

they were the youth group band and they get

signed and all of a

sudden they're on tour and people are looking at

them like they're the

Christian leaders of our day. I'm like, "They

barely graduated high

school, myself included." So they'd be on tour

and just feel very

disconnected from church life. For Skillet, we

always

thought of ourselves as a ministry that was being

sent out from the church that

we were a part of. There's a tiny church in Kenosha,

Wisconsin with

300 people there, but that was home. If our

leaders were ever

like, "Hey, you guys aren't healthy right now.

You need to come back," we would be

like, "Okay, let's do that." Most bands would say,

"No, I have to go pursue this other

thing." So for us, it gave us a safe haven to

come back to.

And to have people that could speak into our

lives to say, "Hey, you're not doing

well. You need to take a break." And we actually

listened to that. That was

a bit abnormal. We didn't see that much on tour.

I didn't mention I was gonna ask this question,

so we may end up taking it

out in post, but I would love to hear, as long as

we're talking about church, and I

think it's so cool that you guys had that tethered

connection to the

local church while you were out doing your thing.

You've gone on, and

we'll talk about Sky's Fall a little bit later,

but you've gone on to be part of

all kinds of different endeavors. What's your

connection with the local

church look like these days? Yeah, it's

interesting. During COVID, everything

kind of blew up, but when we moved out to LA,

this was six, seven years ago,

and it came actually through a prophetic word

that somebody gave us. This lady

that I barely knew came up to me while we lived

in Wisconsin, and she very

clearly and specifically said, "You're gonna move

out to California, and you're

gonna go to this church called Expression 58." We

kind of

backburnered that. Prophetic can be awesome, and

also sometimes it

can be a little bit weird. But six months later,

we

finally visited that church, and my wife and I

immediately walked in, and it was

like, "Oh my gosh, this is home." So when we came

out here, it's a

whole other world coming from the Midwest and

going to a city like LA

that's very transient. I think the average time

people live here is 18

months. Wow. And you experience that in church

life where people are like, "Hey, I got

this gig," and "Hey, I haven't gotten a gig in a

year. I'm out of money going back

home." It's a very strange place in that way. For

us, we got really

plugged into this church, and really with the

worship team and the

leadership, they kind of became our people. And

then through COVID,

everything kind of shut down, and most churches

in California weren't

meeting because they weren't allowed to. And so

we stopped going on

Sundays, and church became more like community,

family around the table type

of experiences. And now we're part of a church

called Vintage Malibu, and some

friends of ours pastor that. And it's amazing,

but it's definitely a

different place. But the fundamentals of church

life as far as

gathering as a congregation, worshiping, hearing

the Word, and then

meeting in small groups around a table, around a

meal, they're essential to

our survival. And so it's kind of evolved from

the traditional

looking thing to something more like, let's

choose to do life together. There's

a couple couples that we just said, "Let's do

life together.

Let's through thick and thin and highs and lows

and success and non-success,

let's show up for each other." And that's become

a variation

of our church. But as far as local church, Vintage

Malibu is where we call home.

Well, I love that. I mean, I think that the kind

of relationships you're

describing are what we're all made for and I

think long for, but I just I think

it's really cool in the midst of all of the

amazing stuff you're doing, and

you're in LA and all the things, and yet you're

still saying, "Hey, we want to be

rooted. We want to have a local church connection."

I think we're just in

a time and era where people kind of go, "Yeah, I'm

just gonna call whoever I hang

with, that's my church." And it's tough 'cause I

have a huge value for

the kind of relationships you described, but I

also go, when I look at the Bible,

local churches are more than just those

relationships, and it sounds like you're

doing a great job, just kind of the balance of

the two. I'd love to talk for

a minute about you leaving Skillet, and you

already alluded to this, but I want

to flesh it out a bit more because here you are,

you're a Grammy-nominated band,

you've sold a zillion albums, all the things. I

mean, it's like you're

living the dream. What for you really pushed you

over the edge of, "It's time to

walk away from this"? How did that discernment

process work to say, "It's

time to make a really big transition from

something that was very successful"?

Yeah, great question. You know, it's interesting,

I'm thinking back and

reminded of many times when you're on tour, you

look around at each other, the

other people in the band, and you ask, "Should we

still be doing this?

This is really hard and exhausting." Many times I

remember having

conversations with Corey, who was our keyboardist.

John and Corey,

they were both about 10 years older than me when

I joined, and so I

joined at 16, so they kind of became my parents

on tour and very

heavily involved in discipling me and kind of

raising me in a lot of ways.

Oftentimes I'd have those conversations where if

I'd go through

something, I'm like, "Should I just get off tour?"

And I remember Corey's like, "Find

out what's the assignment from God? What is that

thing?"

And maybe there's more to be done. But when I

started

going back and being more plugged into our local

church, I think I just missed

that because of not having that for pretty

essential times in my life.

And at the time I had just started Skies Fall,

this is

the last few years of being in the band. And I

remember coming back, working

with our worship school, teaching on that, and

just coming alive, helping the

church however I could, really coming alive. And

they were like, "Oh my God."

Kind of dreading going back on tour, and I was

like, "That was like being self-aware of

that. That's really interesting." And then when I

was on tour, I remember

we'd go to Headline Creation Festival, and

literally you're playing in front of

a hundred thousand people. And it was cool and a

cool experience, but I

remember getting off the stage and going back to

the bus and designing a

business card for Skies Fall that I had started

on the side, and being more

passionate about that. And I was like, "This is

very, very strange." And so my

last big tour with the band, I remember it was

awesome. It was like

Australia, New Zealand, Japan, this world tour.

And I sent an email to

one of our pastors, and I just said, "I think I

want to do something

else." And I got the entrepreneurial bug of

owning my own business,

and getting involved with different aspects of

that, which I

didn't really have that experience within Skillet.

Within Skillet, I was a

guitarist, and it was like, "Be the best guitarist

you possibly can.

Hone in that craft. Show up on stage for shows,

etc." I knew that God called

me to more than that, and I knew that my time

with Skillet was limited. I was

actually shocked that I stayed in the band for 10

years. Not because I didn't

want to, but early days of being in the band, I

remember having a dream. And in

that dream, I was not in the band, and I was

watching them on TV, and there

was this sense of being so happy for them, even

though I wasn't in the

band anymore. And I was like, "That's a strange

dream to have two or three years

being in the band." And in the end, I did it for

another seven

years. I don't know if that answered your

question, but it's an

interesting experience for sure. Well, I feel

like, and even

already coming back to the psalm you shared at

the beginning, when you're really

going after God, trusting Him with all you have,

and then your desires shift,

there is a certain sense in which you can listen

to those hearts' desires, and so

you were finding your passions were shifting. And

on the one hand,

like pastorally, at times I'm talking with folks

and I'm like, "Hey, be careful

of being overly sensitive to your passions." But

where we can be really

tuned into them is when our hearts are locked in

with, "I just want to

follow Jesus 100%, my life is yours, I want you

to be my first delight," and then

we start sensing our heart shifting or our

passion shifting, that's

something to pay attention to, and it sounds like

you did. Overall, one of the

themes that I love that comes out whenever you're

in a conversation

like this is just your overall sensitivity to the

Holy Spirit. You're

open to the prophetic gifting. Yeah, I just think

it's

a...and obviously you've already talked about

your parents creating that

atmosphere as you were growing up. I would love

for you just to expand a

little bit on that today. I don't know if

everybody, when they think of

people in the entertainment industry and

successful in the marketplace, all the

things, that they necessarily would imagine

somebody like you being

as in tune with the Holy Spirit as you are. Tell

me what your journey with the

Holy Spirit looks like, how does that play out on

a day-to-day basis? I'd love

for our listeners to understand that better. Yeah,

I mean, I think because

of growing up the way that I did, hearing the

Holy Spirit, feeling the

Holy Spirit, being led by Him in decision-making,

that was ingraining

me from a young age. I've had to learn. I

remember the early days

of trying to figure out what's the Holy Spirit,

what's just me, and I

think now that I'm almost 41 years old now, I've

walked with God

enough through the highs and lows where His voice,

that whole

idea of the sheep will know His voice, I have a

better sense of that.

I think, especially in endeavors,

entrepreneurial endeavors, something I've thought

about often, talked

about often, is I'm willing to go for it in

things. One of the

principles my dad taught me in early days was in

pursuing

things, how do you know it's right? He's like, "Well,

just treat it like it's a

green light, unless it's not a green light,

unless it's a red light." It was

such a simple thing, but I often find people,

Christians get so hung up and

have so much fear about doing the wrong thing

that they end up not doing

anything. There's that story of the talents where

it was the person

that actually hid his talents that was punished

for that, and what he was

given was taken away because he was like, "Well,

I was so afraid that the Master is

all fear-based." When I talk to a lot of

Christians, that

can often be the case. We can get so fixated on

and careful,

which I think it's very good to be careful and

surrendered and submitted,

but you look at Abraham and he was asked to

sacrifice Isaac.

I think there's this idea of, "Okay, you need to

die to your flesh, you need to

give this up, surrender the dream." I think

everybody

needs to go through that process, but at the end

of that process, he

didn't sacrifice his son, and he raised his son

and he became

this great leader. I think Christians sometimes

sacrifice, but they

never finish out the, "Maybe God wants to bring

that back," and

maybe because you surrendered it, you have the

purity of heart to actually go

pursue that thing. Oftentimes people hide, and it's

out of fear

of failing, fear of doing the wrong thing. For me,

I've just always been

somebody that's like, "I want to go for it. Life

is short.

I want to go change the world. I want to get

involved with... I started a

record label. I was involved with music. I want

to make a film.

I want to get involved with all these things

because God's given us the

earth to make something of it. It has all this

potential built into it."

He told Adam and Eve, "Go make something of this

earth to bring out

its potential." I feel my call is to do that both

personally and with

my wife, but then also to encourage other people.

What that often

looks like is, "Well, what do you want to do,

Pastor Brian?" I've always had this

idea to start a coffee shop. One of my spiritual

gifts, I don't know what

it's called exactly, but it's maybe the gift of

faith to say, "Hey, you should

go do that, and here's steps to get there. Here,

meet this person. He

actually wants to invest in something like that."

That excites me more

than anything. I'm constantly getting yellow

lights and red

lights. My wife is constantly like, "Are you sure

you should be doing that? Is

that really what..." I'm like, "Oh yeah, I got

ahead of myself on that one." I'm

not perfected in that, but I'm constantly saying,

"Okay, God, what do

you..." Just listening, we know that's still

small voice. You know if

you're getting off track. As a whole, if your

life is surrendered

and your day-to-day is like, "God, what are you

saying? What do you

want to do?" If that's your heart posture, then

go for it. Because if your

heart is truly surrendered, along the way, He's

gonna guide you.

You're asking for wisdom. He's gonna give you

wisdom, and He's not gonna let you go

down the wrong road. He's gonna, just like a

shepherd, He's gonna

bring you back to the fold as needed. Sometimes

that

happens, and sometimes it's like, "God's like, 'No,

go for it. Run hard.'"

I love that perspective on just who He is as a

Father and as a shepherd, because

I just could not resonate more with what you're

saying about

discerning the Lord's voice, but ultimately kind

of

defaulting to, "Hey, if I have a burden or a

passion in my heart," erring on the side

of pursuing it versus being in this place where I

need 5,000 confirmations

and I need the clouds to part and I need all

these different

things. I do think I've had times in my life when

I've been that way, I feel like

that's like the Moses example, where he was, "Really,

I need this and I

need this and I need this," and I feel like as I've

grown in faith, I need less

and less. I sense, like you're saying, a prompt,

and I just know, "Man, that

feels like it's from the Lord," and I move on it

versus now I need 15 different

confirmations. But I love the idea of He's a good

Father, and so as

you're saying, if that's the case and He is

actually like, "Man, that's not the path,"

as a good Father, a good Shepherd, He's gonna

speak up and help you discern that

before you end up shooting yourself in the foot.

Now, let's say we're in that

posture of more of a posture of assuming that

this is a good

desire, passion, or vision in our heart and we

should go after it. When you talk

about the yellows and the red lights, and you

already mentioned this

kind of what your wife might speak in, how do

those typically present for you?

When are the times or what are the usual prompts

that you go, "Hey, maybe I

need to slow down here, this might not be the

thing for this time"?

Oftentimes for me it's a feeling of a... I mean,

it's the--what do we call it in the...

Yeah, it's like a red flag. It's like your spirit

kind of just has a

hesitation, and I've grown to know that that's

the Holy Spirit just

saying, "Hey, slow down," you know? It's almost

like this stress feeling in my

heart, in my spirit, where I'm like, "Something's

off here," and I've

learned by ignoring that and being like, "It'll

be fine, it's fine, how

could this not be the right opportunity? It makes

so much sense on paper," and I go

down the road and it falls apart or it doesn't

look like what I

thought it was gonna look like or whatever the

reason, right?

I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I knew it months ago," but

I ignored that.

And then there's times I listen to that voice and

it's like saying no to

something was the most freeing thing ever. And I

don't know

the reason why God wanted me to say no, but it's

like when you operate--when

you obey, there's this pleasure that comes with

it, right? That's just

like, "Oh yeah, it's being led by the Spirit,"

and I just have to

believe that He's protecting me from something

that I shouldn't be involved

with, right? And it's like, "I don't want to

climb up the wrong

mountain and spend all this time doing that," and

so I'm learning still

that's like, "Hey, just--" For me it's a feeling.

For some

people it's like you hear a voice, you hear

thoughts in your head. For me it's a

feeling that I know and I've learned over time,

and it's the same feeling like if I

was gonna go sin, it's like I would know that

conviction of the Spirit. It's the

same type of feeling as that for me anyway. Yeah,

well and to come back to

something you said earlier for those listening

who are maybe on the earlier

side of journeying with being sensitive to the

Holy Spirit, you really do get

better the longer you're trying to stay tuned in

to what the Holy

Spirit's saying. You get better and better at

hearing His voice clearly and

going, "Oh, that's God. That's what it feels like

when God speaks to me," and so

I really want to encourage those who are

listening, keep at it and keep

listening, and some of it's trial and error.

Honestly, like any relationship, I'm

sure that you would say about your wife, and I

know I would with mine, like I've

gotten better at understanding where she's at,

how to read certain things, how

to read a certain tone of voice, even just a look,

but all of that's gotten

sharper over time. Yeah, we're figuring it out.

Right on. So Skysfall,

I really want to encourage people to check out

the website because

what you guys do is so multifaceted, it's hard to

even describe, you know,

because you just have your hands in a lot of

different pots and you provide a

lot of different services for your clients, and

so it's really fun to just

jump on the website and you get to see at least

some of the cool things you

guys have been up to. I would love, on the whole

journey of starting something,

you're already kind of working on the company

then while you're still in the

band, and then you go full-on, you end up moving

to LA because you felt

like that's where God was calling you to go, but

talk to me a little bit

about the journey of starting the company, of

going like, "All my eggs are in this

basket." What was that like? Was it easy? Was it

hard? How did you

experience God in the whole startup process? Yeah,

it's interesting. Looking

back, I started the company with a guy named Joe

Snyder, who was, at the

time, he was just one of my best friends at the

church we were part of. He was

kind of busy pursuing his own business with his

father-in-law, and

we would just get together and hang out and be

like, "You know what would be cool is

a record label, and you know what would be cool

is films that do this, and it's

kingdom culture." We just started kind of

dreaming and talking and

through that, at one point, at that time, he was

way more experienced in

business than I was, and I was just the kind of

creative guy that was dreaming

big. Anyway, we were like, "Let's just start a

company and see

where it goes." I literally don't remember

praying about it.

It was just like this natural progression, but so

much of the formation of that and the foundation

of that was based on just

kingdom principles and kingdom culture. There's a

guy named Lance Wall now, who

he had this, I think it was called doing business

supernaturally or

something like that. It was this course that we

took. It was all about

the seven mountains of culture and how there's

government and

education and the arts and entertainment and

things like that.

As we create a culture in business that's based

off of the kingdom

and the Bible and the gospel, those principles

and applying those to

business, we're going to see blessing in favor.

Every week we would

get together and pray for the company and just

genuinely expect God to just

show up in some kind of way. I remember

specifically, we were only doing

music at the beginning. One day we prayed and we

were like, "I feel like

we're supposed to buy some video cameras." We

bought a few video cameras.

Literally that week, we got phone calls from a

nearly billion-dollar

apparel company that lived in the town we were at.

They were like, "Hey, we

heard you guys do video." We're like, "How did

you know that?"

All of a sudden, we have this client that we're

doing work for.

We ended up doing commercials for Target and Jockey,

Intel, GE Healthcare.

We started doing this stuff in the video world

that we really had no business

doing to be honest. We were just good people,

dreaming big, following after

God and praying for the company. That was going

on while I was in the band.

I think that's why there was a big shift for my

heart. I was seeing the

kingdom being built through business and through

a business that I owned.

That transition, it was hard in one sense to

leave because I was like,

"Man, we're..." I left shortly after. Looking

back, it was just

after Skillet was at their top. It was like we

sold the most amount of

records, had the most amount of success. Some

people maybe thought I

was crazy. They're like, "Why would you leave now?"

I'm like, "I don't know.

I've been doing it for 10 years." Landing in a

safe church where we feel

like we had community, people that loved me, and

then seeing anytime I put

my hand to something, God was blessing that in

the business world, which is

different for me. I was creative. To then be

hearing God speak or putting

desires in my heart in the same way that I knew

it in the ministry and

creative space, now I was in business. I was like,

"This is weird. I didn't

know you could hear God in business." That was a

cool thing that I

ultimately just became obsessed with. It seems

like you had a very...

I mean, honestly, just a very favored on-ramp to

the whole experience

of Sky's Fall, including some of those ways that

God was showing up with early,

early opportunities that were really out of your

league, and here's God dropping

some things into your lap. Were there many

difficulties or obstacles on the

front end, or was it just, "Wow, this is just up

and to the right, and

business is falling into our laps. Our biggest

problem is how do we

manage all the opportunity?" I mean, yeah, was

there tough stuff or not really?

I should share more of the horror stories of it

all too, right? The failed

projects and the things that break and the

clients that weren't happy.

Within the midst of what I would say is

experiencing God's favor in

business, you start hiring people because you're

like,

"Hey, we're growing quickly." Now all of a sudden

we have 10 employees, and I mean 10

people we're paying every month. We get, "Okay,

now we have to get work."

Now it's not just that's fun and nice. It's like

we got to meet payroll, and you're

dealing with personalities and creative

personalities that are interesting

creatives. Being one, they're very interesting

people and can be highly

emotional. While we saw God's favor in all of it,

and it was a

fun experience, definitely tons of work, super

hard, not easy,

letting people go, difficult. So many things

along the way were

difficult. I think for me it was the foundational

knowing. I think there was

a desire that I knew that this was still, even

though we were seeing success in it,

it was like a stepping stone. We were working

with brands mostly when we

started Skies Fall. We're doing commercials and

some music videos.

That was cool. We were cutting our teeth on that,

but in my heart it was like,

"I want to go pursue film. I want to go make a

movie or a television show."

I really had no idea how to do that or what the

business of that looked like.

I remember the first time I went to LA trying to

shop a film project and just

completely green and ignorant. "Hey, pick me. I'm

here. I have an idea for a movie."

But that was in my heart when I was doing these

music videos and commercials.

It was like that was the thing that I'm like, "The

assignment is not done yet." I felt like

with Skillet I knew at a young age that I was

going to be a part of something like that and

was just blown away by the success of it and the

impact that it had. It was like that same

kind of seed dream idea I had with film and

television. I'm still kind of outworking that,

to be honest. Which will be a great segue in a

second to Homestead.

I just want to appreciate you kind of taking note

of some of the challenges because

it really is... Sometimes I'll talk to folks and

I think it comes from a good place. They're so

aware of God's favor on their journey that they

can talk about, "Man, God showed up this way and

this way and this way." But I think it's really

good for any of us who are out there trying to

do a new thing to recognize, "Oh yeah, it's going

to be challenging. You're going to have to learn

a

ton." Even with all the success of Skillet, you'd

never led a multi-staff person company before. So

you're growing as a leader, as a manager. That's

a whole different skill set that you're having to

develop in a new way and face some of the

challenges that come with dealing with team

members and all the things. So I just think it's

great to hear some of those challenges along the

way. Let's spend a minute talking about Homestead.

I mentioned this to you before we started the

conversation officially, but my wife and I were

able to see it. Loved the movie, loved the idea.

I know you've gotten a little bit of pushback on

the idea of taking the movie right into a, "Hey,

and we've got a TV series coming off of this." To

me, I thought this is A, brilliant, and B,

this is the kind of idea that it's not, to my

knowledge at least, not been done before. And

so some people are going to be like, "Oh my gosh."

And then when it's successful, they're going to

be like, "Those guys are brilliant. We should all

be doing this." So I love that you innovated and

tried something new. But yeah, tell me a little

bit about the backstory of the project and maybe

you could give us a little bit of a sneak peek of

here of what Homestead's about and what your

experience has been like with it. Yeah,

absolutely. Yeah, I'll rewind a little bit. So it

was probably

about two years ago. My wife and I were running

our agency and production company in Los Angeles.

And to be honest, pretty exhausted. We were

living closer to the city in Studio City. And so

we were

like, "Let's move out of the city. Let's get to,"

literally there's like goats and chickens across

the street from us now. We're within 40 minutes

of LA, but now it's just a different vibe. But we

were coming out here and I remember walking

through this house that we live in now and

thinking, "It's time to slow down. We don't have

kids yet. Let's start a family." And then I get a

phone call from a new friend of mine who was an

author and a very, very successful business guy.

And he was basically like, "Hey, I've got this

book series. It's a bestselling book series

called

Black Autumn. I want to turn this into a

television show. What do you think?" And my life

has been

nonstop ever since, probably the busiest I've

ever been. So our season of rest and recoupment

didn't

happen then. But it was interesting. We met Angel

Studios. I met this author. It was like the

collision of all these incredible people coming

together. And I was there at the table as a

filmmaker and as a producer saying, "Hey, I want

to help this thing come into existence." And so

started as a television show. And then sure

enough, I don't know if you know, but the SAG

strike happened. So all SAG actors, any major

actor, most actors are SAG. And it's a union and

they were striking. And so you couldn't make

something, but they were approving independent

films to get made. And I was like, "Well, what if

we took episode one and two of the TV show

and turned it into a feature film?" And at that

time, Angel Studios had released Sound of Freedom

that did very, very well. And they started to do

things more theatrically. And we're like,

"They're starting to get good at that. Let's see

if we can jump on that bandwagon." Because what a

great way to market a television show with a

massive launch in theaters. And like you said,

we had never really seen that before. And so we

were like, "Either this is genius and I don't

know

why people haven't done it, or there's a big

reason why people haven't done that." And I

thought as a

viewer, I don't know how many times I've watched

a movie and you get so invested emotionally in

these characters. And then it ends and you're

like, "Oh, I'm sad. I want to keep watching this."

And so we thought it was really smart and I

thought audiences would love it. Like you said,

we got a lot of pushback from people like, "Hey,

you just did the movie to market a TV show and I

feel ripped off." And I was so shocked by the

response because I was like, "Oh my gosh, I didn't

even think of it that way. I just thought, 'Hey,

the story keeps going. How cool is that?'" So a

little surprised by that. But it was an amazing

experience. It was our first time making a

feature

film. We've done tons of commercials, tons of

short films. But raising $5 million, creating

something like that was an incredible opportunity

and an amazing journey. And it did well. It

released this past Christmas and did really well.

But I mean, it was God's stories all throughout

it. To be on a miracle that it all came together.

I'll share one brief story on it. It's very

difficult to raise money for films and television.

A lot of people have lost a lot of money. And so

you're trying to differentiate yourself in any

kind of way. And anyway, very long story short,

it was probably a week before we were meant to

start filming. And in short, there was a fund

that backed out of financing. So within a couple

days here, it's like, "We need $2 million in the

next 72 hours or we're going to have to cancel

this whole thing." And at the time, my wife was

going through a bit of a health scare, had to go

fly back to LA to have surgery. And it was like

this collision of all these things. It was like

faith being tested in a way that I've never

experienced before. Where literally I'm in the

production office and there's 70 people hurriedly

running around trying to get everything. We're

filming, they're excited. We're filming. In the

back of my mind, I'm like, "I literally might

have to fire them tomorrow." And two people knew

this.

It was like me on my face before God saying, "You

brought me here. I'm not even the one that...

This

is just his story. I'm along for the ride. You

got to show up, God." Even though it was very

difficult and with my wife's health, it was very

difficult. I was just like, "For some reason,

I believe God's going to show up." And sure

enough, within 72 hours, we had two financing

offers.

My wife ended up having surgery. Everything was

fine. It was all good. And then all of a sudden,

we were making the film. And that was a great

adventure in and of itself. But I remember

passing the faith test and seeing God show up and

believing in Him for that. And I was like,

"That was actually the most exhilarating thing in

the whole experience was just having the test of

faith." And so super grateful for... Amazing. A

lot of people don't get to make movies. A lot of

people don't get to make movies that go out into

theaters, let alone a television show as well.

So I'm just so grateful that we got the

opportunity to tell a story. And on the creative...

I know I'm

yakking, but on the creative standpoint, it's a

feature film that leads into a television show

based on a bestselling book series. It's a

military thriller. And we tweaked it a little

bit so it's more like a drama, post-apocalyptic

family drama. And basically, a nuclear bomb goes

off in Los Angeles. And it's all these families

coming together in the Rocky Mountains trying to

survive in the midst of a collapse of society.

And so they're turning to nature, they're turning

to

God, they're turning against each other. It's

figuring out how do you survive in the midst of

something. And I think we saw glimpses of that

during COVID where all of a sudden... I remember

going to the grocery store and there's literally

nothing in the freezer sections of our grocery

store. I'm like, "What is happening?" And so it

felt like a timely story to tell. And so very

grateful that we got to do that. Yeah, I love...

The overall apocalyptic

genre is cool in the sense that it really causes

you to enter into these stories and say, "What

would I do? What would we be like? Would we be

ready? How would we respond to some of the

tensions

that you're raising in the film?" And I don't

wanna give people a preview, I want them to watch

it,

but it really does raise a lot of those ethical

tensions. And even as a Christ follower,

what is the right response in these scenarios?

And so I just loved how you guys are really

wrestling with hard questions. And it's not like

this nice little button it up real nice and easy

kind of a way. You feel the tensions of what the

characters are wrestling with. I think it's

awesome. I love though the idea that when you're

talking about that faith test on the front end

with the financing. And it's funny because you'd

think, "Okay, we're going, it's green light,

we're living the dream." And I have been in those

moments specifically with different projects

where

financing has fallen out last minute or we've

gotten massive unwelcome surprises. And I would

agree with you, those moments of being on the

very edge of faith where you know, I mean, you

know

that you know you cannot materialize $2 million

on your own strength in that amount of time. I

mean,

this is beyond you. All you can do is lean on God.

And then when he shows up, it's just the most

fantastic thing ever to go, "Look what God did.

He's capable, He's present, He sees all this." I

think that's a fantastic story. I've got to ask

though, having now the film's out, it's done well.

I mean, you said it costs 5 million to make, 20

million, more than 20 million it's brought in so

far. So that's great. The first couple episodes

are getting streamed. Would you do over the movie

to TV with the learnings you've had? Do you go, "Yep,

hands down, I would do it all over again."

Or do you go, "Well, maybe would have thought

about that a little bit more."

I would do it again for sure. Yeah, I think we

would, you know, creatively, we would tweak some

things. You know, we're actually working on a

couple other projects and we're using the same

strategy because again, we spent 8, 10 million

dollars on marketing. So it's like a lot of

people are familiar with the brand of Homestead

now. That's going to open up a lot of doors for

the series to go, you know, to go for a long time.

And so I love it, you know, but you know,

every everything you do, there's lessons that you

learn along the way. And yeah, but I think Angel

sees it as a great success. We've heard other big

studios are actually looking at doing that as

well

now. So, you know, I think there was some success

in it. I just think, I think we have to make

audiences more aware of the fact that it's a

television show as well. I think going in when

they go in and, but we'll see, we'll see how it

goes. Well, I just, I, like I said before, I

think

it's brilliant. I think you guys took a risk. I

think that it's funny because the way that,

the way that the movies and TV have been so bifurcated

historically, you know, it's TV over

here, it's movies over here. And now with so many

movies and big time ask actors launching either

TV, expand, you know, I forget what they would

call them, but like long, you know, expanded TV

series, things they can accomplish that they can't

accomplish in a movie format or just straight

movie

formats being launched right on different like

streaming platforms and bypassing the theaters

altogether. I just think this like convergence is

really cool. And I think you guys made sense

of it and it does not surprise me in the

slightest that other people are thinking, hey,

you know what,

maybe there is some gold here. So that's awesome.

I love that you're going to probably have a

legacy

in the whole establishment because of the risk

this movie took that was just a small budget

affair

and people are taking notice. You know, overall,

you've been someone who is comfortable clearly

with taking risks and even failing. Talk to me a

little bit about this tension that exists between

faith and fear and risks and failure and what

your position is on that. How do you navigate it?

Yeah, good question. You know, there's a question,

a conversation I've had the last few weeks with

another friend of mine, and there was a question

that, I don't know if it was like a Tony Robbins,

but somebody like that. It was probably somebody

more Christian than that. But he said, you know,

what would you do or what would life look like if

you were 10 times more bold or had 10 times

more courage? And that question, it's like kind

of, I don't know if it haunts me, but it's like,

oh man, I think it inspires me and it challenges

me because I'm like, you know, what would you do?

Right. Like, okay, I feel like I'm a pretty, like

I'm a go getter. I'm like, hey, let's go. I have

no problem. Like, oh, that's the CEO of a studio.

Like, let's go talk to him. Like, let's see what

God does. And I'm expectant of that, you know,

what would I be doing if I was 10 times more like

that? And it's like, I almost saw it as like an

invitation to believe God for more. I remember

telling another friend, you know, I joined Skilt

when I was 16. I was like a homeschool kid,

very normal, even though I was a little abnormal,

pretty normal, pretty like okay at the guitar.

There's lots of guitar players that were better

than me, but I believed God that he wanted to

use me in a big way. And I was like expectant of

that. And so, and you know, went on, Skilt went

on to be one of the biggest Christian rock bands,

you know, ever. Right. And so grateful for that.

But it was like, it almost ruined me to the

ordinary to where it's like, okay, we're going

to go make a movie. I'm like, I want to make a

movie that goes into theaters. Like, like life

is short. Let's go like, let's go play in the

Olympics. Not literally, but you know what I mean?

Like, let's believe God. If God can do anything,

like, am I going to believe God for, you know,

something, you know, midsize? Or am I going to

believe God for something big? I was like, well,

you might as well. It takes just as much faith,

like faith, right? Like to believe God for the

big thing. Let's go after that. Doesn't mean

there's not fear. Doesn't mean there's not

uncertainty, doubt. You know, I'm constantly

questioning, you know, the industry is like

this weird thing where it's like, we just had

this film come out in theaters. And then now

there's this lull and when I'm waiting to get

greenlit for the next two seasons of Homestead,

you know, you're sitting at home and you're like,

what am I doing? Should I be doing something else

with my life? Maybe I should start a company.

What if this doesn't come through? You start

having those negative thoughts and you're like,

man, but you just have to remember, like,

ultimately God is the one that opens the doors,

you know, so we work hard, we prepare ourselves.

And then, you know, there's another guy that said,

you know, basically God, like expect God to put

the super on the natural. So we want to live

supernatural lives, but like God is the one that

has to put that super on the natural. The

expectation is that the natural kind of has

its act together. You know what I mean? Like if

you have this dream to go play NBA, you know,

ball,

like, and you're, but you're not practicing every

day. It's like, well, God can't open that. You're

not ready for that door to be opened. If the door

opened for you, you would fail miserably because

you didn't have that, the natural in order. And

so there's something about that that's been like

a principle in life where it's like, I believe

that if I get the natural in order and I practice

or I become excellent, going back to the learning,

like learning how to learn, like learn how to

pursue something and become excellent at it and

then see what God does. And oftentimes in my life,

and I believe like this is for others too, that

like when you perfect something or you become

excellent in something that God's like, okay, I

can use that now. And you know, there's that

verse in Proverbs that says, you know, play skillfully

and you'll be brought before Kings.

I'm literally expecting that like that. I'm like,

I haven't met the president yet, but I'm like,

I should meet the president. Like I'm going to

believe God that I'm going to meet the president

because like, why not? Like, cause if I play

skillfully at whatever the thing is God's put

in my hand, like that's what the verse says.

Right. So, so I'll keep you posted on that

whenever

that happens, but. I love it.

You know, I don't know. I'm kind of long-winded

here, but I, you know, I just want to encourage

people. This is gold. Yeah. Keep going. Keep

going.

I just want to encourage people to like, believe

God for big things. There's a reason why God

puts something in your heart. It's not just your

thoughts, right? Like you've always had this

desire

to go do something, start a coffee shop. I used

to help people, like I teach at this school and I

would make everybody write out a list of these

top 10 things. These are the 10 things I want to

do

in my life. And it's like, it can be as selfish

as you want, whatever, just put 10 things in your

life. And it's like, you know, people are first

Christians are like, well, I want to help save

kids in Africa. And you're like, do you actually

want to do that? Or are you just saying that?

Cause you're supposed to say that as a Christian.

And it's like, okay, fine. You know, I want,

I remember this one girl was like, I want to

build a bicycle. And she was so embarrassed to

say that.

And I was like, oh my gosh, that's amazing. She's

like, why am I so I'm like, you should do that.

Like that's so. And so I think there's like this,

there's this power in recognizing these are the

things that God's put in your heart and that God

actually put those desires in your heart. And as

you delight yourself in God, he puts those

desires there and then he's going to meet those

desires.

And our, our job is to step out in faith and

believe him for that. And it's, it is scary,

but, um, but I think as we take steps, you know,

the doors start opening or closing and you have

to hold it loosely, right? You dream big. And at

the same time you go like, if it doesn't work out,

like it's not failure. It's just, what's the

lesson in this God. And what's the next thing.

Well, and that's the, I, I love that, that idea

of failing forward in general and not reading

failure or things that don't work out as, oh my

goodness, you know, this is terrible. My life's

over. I messed up. And for those of us who are

like me, who are Enneagram ones and perfectionists,

you know, you take it all the harder and saying,

no, this is another path, another step forward.

It just is, I mean, it's not the fun kind of step

forward, but it is still a step forward. And so

far as you learn from it, that question, how

would you live, or I forget exactly how you worded

it,

but how would you do things differently if you

were 10 times bolder? That is going to stick

with me for the rest of my life. I love that so

much. And I just so appreciate you sharing that.

And I was thinking, as you were talking about

that great hall of faith chapter in Hebrews

chapter 11,

where it's listing all of these people who God

used to do great things. And they all had a

vision, a picture, a calling that was so much

bigger than what would make any kind of sense

to hold. And in many cases, they didn't get all

the way there, but what we both could say is,

hands down, they only got as far as they did,

which was still massive. Like, God used them

all in huge ways because they had a vision that

was so just gigantic. So I think that's just such

a beautiful point and beautifully said. It's

going to inspire people. I'd be curious, you're

clearly a driven person. You're on the go. You're

like, "What's the next thing?" How do you keep

yourself in a place of... There's a tension, I

feel like sometimes for me, of like, I'm wired

similarly. Like, I want to get after it. How do

you mind that tension of getting after it with

not letting that turn into a spirit of striving

that's like, "I want the next thing, the next

level, the whatever," and kind of a contentment

in the Lord and waiting? Do you feel that tension

much in your life? Yeah, often. Yeah, I mean, I'm

learning how to navigate that. I think the thing

that comes to mind is in the midst of pursuits,

doing a temperature check on how am I actually

doing? And is the fruit in my life not just in

business and in career? Is the fruit in my life,

like, "Yeah, my marriage is awesome. And yeah, my

relationships with family and friends is healthy.

And spiritually, I feel full. I don't feel depleted."

When you kind of temperature check,

that's a helpful gauge. I had a mentor recently

that was saying, "What's going on in your life?"

I was asking him. And he's like, "Yeah, he had

this book that came out recently. And they were

just crazy promoting that and all this stuff."

And he was like, "Yeah, we're taking some time

off."

I was like, "Oh, that's so good." He's like, "Yeah."

And the word that God spoke to him was

about basically allowing the land to heal. And

this idea that when we're... I'm not a farmer,

but let's just say I was. Every year, there has

to be this season of time where the land heals

because you can't plant in it 24/7, 352 days a

year. You have to allow the soil to rest.

And anyway, I thought it was such a beautiful

picture of making sure that you're taking Sabbath,

making sure that... And you're letting the land

rest. And when you do that, I think it allows you

to gauge what is the right pursuit. You know what

I mean? Right now, because of the success of

Homestead, I'm getting a lot of phone calls. I'm

getting emails like, "Hey, make my movie."

And at first, I was like, "Okay," trying to stay

on top of it all. And then I was just like,

"This is actually too much. God, what am I

supposed to be doing?" I don't want to get

distracted by 10 projects when maybe what God's

saying is just focus on this one for now. I do

have another one that's really exciting though.

But the striving thing is real, especially in a

city of LA where everybody's hustling. That's the

name of the game. You got to hustle. And

you get invited to like, "Oh, come to this party."

And you're like, "I should go because what if I

meet somebody?" And it's exhausting. And you

think that you have to make it all happen.

And it's just like not... It's not kingdom, right?

Nothing amazing that happened in my life that God

did. It was because I manipulated the situation.

And I was like, "Well, I was strategically...

I'm like, it was God opened a door and I happened

to... And I'm working hard, but it's God that's

doing it. You know what I mean? So it kind of

remove... It's a quick reminder to not strive.

And I think when you strive, you realize that

your health meter is not healthy. And then when

you let go, it's like, "Oh, God can be like, 'Okay,

you're not... He can open the door and He

can raise the money or whatever the thing is.'"

And then that way it's great because then He's

the one that has to sustain it, not you because

you made it all happen.

- Man, that's such a great word. And in some ways

it comes back to me even when we're talking about

the idea of when people feel anxiety about the

future and taking risks and whatnot. And here's

why. Because I feel like that spirit of striving

is in some ways, it's driven by fear and anxiety.

What if I miss out? What if I lose this

opportunity if I don't make that connection?

That kind of thing. What I hear you saying is, "I

want to operate from a place of rest and health

to the best of my ability." And obviously, as you've

already said, that doesn't mean we're

not working hard. And I think all of us who are

accomplishing things would say, "Oh, we are

working hard." But if you're keeping your

marriage, your friendships, your relationship

with God in a

healthy place, those are staying dialed in, those

are the big rocks of your life. And then you're

kind of in this place of trust and rest in Him

where you can say yes to things because you feel

at peace about saying yes to things, not yes

because I'm afraid of what's gonna happen if I

don't do this. And that's that striving mentality

for me is that just low-grade anxiety of, "Oh,

what if I don't?" versus, "This is my calling to

say yes." I think that's such a very good word on

that. When it comes to people finding out about

the movie, I mean, we've already mentioned Angel

Studios, that right now is the platform to see

the movie, right? Is it gonna be released on

other

streaming platforms or is it gonna stay on Angel

for indefinite future?

Yes. It'll be on... I can't say what, but it'll

be on another platform or network that's big and

you've heard of and all the things. So yeah, that's

in the works. But right now, you can watch

the movie and the two episodes on the Angel app

and that's growing very quickly, which is

exciting.

And I can't remember if I mentioned it on the

recording here or not, but we're gonna go into

filming the rest of season one this summer. So gearing

up...

Let's go.

Yeah, head back to Utah and hit production. So

hopefully late summer, you'll have some new

episodes to binge and they're awesome. I'm very

excited about them. And I think we learned a lot

in the film. For me, I like the television show

better than the film. I was like, we learned all

the lessons and I felt like we got better and

more exciting in that and it's only gonna get

better from here. So yeah.

Honestly, and I'm not just saying this, honestly,

Ben, when the second episode finished, I thought,

I feel like this whole storyline is at the sweetest

part it's been so far. I mean, it felt like...

Again, everything's been good to date. I'm not...

No criticism there, but I felt like when episode

two ended, I had this feeling of now we're

starting to go some places that feel, I don't

know, just

next level, I guess. So I guess I say that to say

it doesn't surprise me to say that you're feeling

that that's gonna be the case in the subsequent

episodes. Really excited about that. Now, I

assume

your other project that you're excited about that

you referenced a minute ago is probably too early

in the pipeline to say anything more about in

this conversation. Is that right?

I can mention... No, I mean, we're in production

on it. It's called Miracle.

And it's a docu-series, like a really cinematic

docu-series about supernatural occurrences that

have happened. But then looking at it through the

lens of science and medical research. So we have

a Harvard doctor and her husband who... They

basically have an institute that studies these

miracles and they do peer-reviewed published

papers about them. So they throw out a lot of

cases, not because they weren't miracles, but

from a science standpoint, you can kind of

explain it

away. But there's these cases where, whether it's

somebody dies or they have a brain... Even this

guy, Josh Brown, who was... He's one of these

medical researchers. He's a brain scientist,

literally has got scans. He's like, "You have a

tumor." And he was like, "I know this is a

death sentence. I'm gonna die in the next six

months." And he started pursuing God and healing.

And all of a sudden, six months later, he gets

the scan again. And they're like, "The tumor

changed into scar tissue. There's no more tumor."

So there's these crazy stories. So we're telling

it in a really cinematic way. There's a whole...

I don't want to call it a lifestyle brand,

because that sounds really cheesy. But we've got

somewhat of a controversial character,

but a creative director from Kanye West Circle is

our creative director. And we're doing some

really cool stuff. Because I was like, "I want to

wear a T-shirt that says 'miracle.' I just think

that's so cool." So let's do that at the highest

level. And then we've got a bunch of music

artists

like Phil Wickham and Natalie Grant, things like

that. So there's a new thing. It's gonna be on

Angel as well. It'll be, in my opinion, since The

Chosen, there's not really been anything

as mission-minded as that or ministry-based. But

it's rad. I'm stoked on it. So that'll come out

this summer. Oh, that's the summer already. Man,

that sounds incredible. I can't wait.

We'd not subscribed to Angel before. But we

missed the movie because we were traveling and

just busy with holidays and didn't see it in the

Homestead, that is, in the theater.

So we subscribed to Angel for the sake of seeing

Homestead and then the shows. And then we've seen

actually some other stuff too, which is what's

cool, because there's all kinds of great material.

Bonhoeffer's on there. There's a lot of good

stuff. And so it sounds like we're all set up

to watch Miracle. That's great. I love it. Yeah.

Yeah. Definitely check it out.

Hey, anything else you want to share before we

get off today, Ben?

I don't think so, man. Thanks so much for your

time. It's great to meet you. And

love what you guys are doing. And thanks for

giving me the opportunity to share a bit.

Yeah. Thank you for coming on. And if people want

to find out more, we've already mentioned

your company. Any other things you want to say as

far as connecting with you or following your work?

Check us out on Skysfall.com, our Instagram. You

can follow my wife, Caitlin. She's actually the

one to follow. She keeps the world posted on all

that we're up to. But yeah, lots more stuff in

the pipeline and just trying to make content that

really changes people's lives, encourages people,

and is rad. Super cinematic, dramatic type stuff,

action stuff. I'm like, "Let's keep going after

that." So there's a lot of cool things that are

going to be happening over the next year or two.

So stay tuned on it all. Awesome. Well, we'll

keep getting the word out. And Ben,

thanks so much for taking the time and hanging

out. You are doing incredible work. And I know

for younger folks who are just starting on their

journey to watch someone like you

really get after things in an excellent way, not

a cheesy way. I know you talked about a low

budget

film. And of course, compared to the blockbusters,

it's low budget. But still, let's just say there

are films out there that are being done on lower

budgets and not as well. And you came in and you

said, "We're going to do this in a way that

deserves and commands respect." And the storyline,

the quality, the excellence, the music is great.

So well done on all that. I cannot wait for your

further work and really appreciate you joining us

today. Awesome. Thanks so much, my friend.

Appreciate it. Wow. What a great conversation

with Ben. And I'm going to remember that line

for a long time. What would happen if we lived 10

times bolder? If you're a follower of Jesus,

did you know you have every reason to be bold? It's

so interesting because the early Christians

were hiding. They were afraid. They were filled

with anxiety after Jesus was crucified. But then

after he rose from the dead, those same disciples

who were hiding and trapped by fear,

exploded into the world with courage and boldness.

Why? Because they knew Jesus had risen. And that

risen, conquering, victorious Jesus was walking

with them every day of their lives. And it meant

that both in the victories and in the difficult

times, they knew ultimately God would prevail.

If you are a follower of Jesus, you have every

reason to walk with courage and with boldness

and with confidence and to know that even in the

so-called failures, you can fail forward.

God will take every misstep, everything that

doesn't quite turn out the way you hoped,

even things that the world would call failures,

and he can help you move forward through them.

Well, if this has been a good conversation for

you, it's been encouraging, please do rate and

review us. It is a massive encouragement to our

team to hear from you. This has been a production

of Engedi Church, and we have more incredible

conversations on the way. And so until next time,

just know you were made to advance.