PB_S2E21_CC_0606 ===

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:00:00] Hi, Paul. Sarah. Fucking shoot him already.

Paul Adelstein: Oh my God. Sarah just kept for those who didn't watch the, uh, rewatch with us.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh my God, how

Paul Adelstein: dare you. Um. But mostly every time someone had a gun trained on teabag, Sarah screamed. Just shoot him already.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I I just, I just spent like seven minutes just shouting, just shoot him already.

Just shoot him. Just shoot. He's a bad guy. Bad person. You know what I mean? Like, I'm all for morals. I think they're great and I, I really respect both my, there's no redemption.

Paul Adelstein: There's no redemption coming there, right?

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, no, no, no. We've seen the whole story. [00:01:00] It's not like he becomes Right. Um. And actually, okay, we'll, we'll do the index and stuff, but I do wanna talk about the whole idea of what quote unquote, good people do and don't do.

Hmm. Because there's a lot of morality play in this episode, and I agree with some of it and I don't agree with all of it. Um, also, you did some really, really, really beautiful work, so I want to talk about that too.

Paul Adelstein: Okay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um, I can tell by your face that you totally agree, are proud of everything and have no complicated feelings, so that's cool.

Correct? Yeah. Yeah. That tracks, uh,

Paul Adelstein: all Sorry, by

Sarah Wayne Callies: the way. Hi, everybody. Hi. This is episode 2 21,

Paul Adelstein: Finn De del Camino. Which means what? Fino? End of end of the road. Oh, El Camino means the road. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I just know it from the cool car.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh sure. And there's also that Tennessee Williams play. Camino Real,[00:02:00]

sorry, I saw it once and it was one of those like life changing. Got it. This does not matter. I don't even know.

Paul Adelstein: I even know. It does matter. Of course it matters. Alright, pen, ultimate episode.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Pen two. Ultimate episode, which means the one before the last one. Just because there're every now and again, people in my life who are like, oh my God, that was the penultimate, craziest thing I've ever done.

Doesn't mean what you,

Paul Adelstein: I think they mean paramount also, that's.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Speaking of Malaprops, there's somebody in my family who used to say much to my demise instead of much to my dismay. Oh, amazing. It was like, that's so good. I never corrected them. 'cause I was like, no, I love this so much, much to my demise. Yeah. No, it's actually, it's

Paul Adelstein: not. It's not. Uh, is that not a mal prop that people confuse?

It's tantamount that people confuse with paramount.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, yep,

Paul Adelstein: yep. Because tantamount means next to the top.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right. As opposed to tantamount pictures, as opposed to paramount pictures.

Paul Adelstein: Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. Um, pet

Sarah Wayne Callies: ultimate

Paul Adelstein: pictures. [00:03:00] Like

Sarah Wayne Callies: pet ultimate pictures. Um, okay. Do you want, would you like to do the, uh, yes.

The Palestine Index,

Paul Adelstein: uh, Del Camino. Premiered on Monday, March 26th, 2007 at 8:00 PM was up against Dancing with the Stars on a, B, C, and reruns of how I Met Your mother on CBS and deal or No Deal on NBC 8.24 million live viewers tuned in. Uh, the episode is written by Shaw under Matt Olmsted and Seth Hoffman, directed by Bobby Roth.

Again, Bobby Roth directed more episodes of the series than anyone else.

Sarah Wayne Callies: He sure did. Okay. To recap this episode, I, I have to admit, I spent a lot of time screaming at the, um. At the episode, yes. While we were watching it, which is, I can confirm. I

Paul Adelstein: can confirm that unlike

Sarah Wayne Callies: me, but I got a little unhinged. Uh, when we left off the last episode, Michael had left Lincoln on Hi.

On the boat. The Christina Rose to go intercept teabag and bring him to justice. Now, uh, Michael arrives at the hotel where [00:04:00] Teabag is staying reuniting the Sukra and Beic, and they decide to work together to reach their different teabag related goals that came out. Moving on. Um, they follow teabag to a new location.

What? Skip it. Um, they follow teabag to a new location and enter a house that's under construction, pursuing him and locking the company agents outside. But Teabag has staged a dead body in the house, of course, and called the police setting them up. Um, someone he murdered. Yeah, sorry. Staged a dead body of, uh, a woman.

He murdered sex worker who he hired and then killed. Murdered. Yeah. Murdered. Yeah. Um, the police arrest bellick while the others escape. They capture teabag in the process or process if you're Canadian. Oh, throughout. All through, um, throughout all of this, mamon has been tailing Michael, but is intercepted by Lincoln who wants revenge for his father, Aldo's death, who, of course, Maho killed.

Meanwhile, teabag escapes on the way to the embassy and crae gets [00:05:00] wounded. Um, takes a, a screwdriver to the shoulder because the old screwdriver

Paul Adelstein: to the shoulder,

Sarah Wayne Callies: because this is what happens when you don't shoot teabag the second you have an opportunity to

Paul Adelstein: also don't leave tools loose in the back of a car.

It's very dangerous. They need to be secured. In a toolbox. It

Sarah Wayne Callies: was a getaway car though. They kind of didn't know, but yes, a hundred percent. Okay. Um, if you've got teabag in the back of a car, make sure there's nothing, no sharp objects Correct. That he can. Right. Okay. So in a final attempt to deliver teabag to justice and clear his conscience, uh, Michael is trying to, uh, take him to the embassy.

Um. And long story short, he locks him up in a different house with a different thing stabbed through his good wrist for the police to capture. And Michael leaves with the money, which seems like it would be great except, but wait, there's more elsewhere. PS while this is all happening, Sarah is facing trial, uh, for, among other things, letting eight people outta prison and is [00:06:00] almost convicted until Kellerman.

Arrives to testify her testify for her. Um, prior to that, he had attempted to kill himself, yes, but his gun jammed and his sister made the argument that he could begin anew and maybe him showing up to testify for her, uh, is an attempt at that. Anyway, um, Michael arrives at the boat with the money only to find his brother gone, and he ends up talking to Maho on the phone, telling him to bring the money and the boat in exchange for Lincoln because Mahon wants to vanish.

You guys, all the things happened Wow.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, in Earth News.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I am on Earth. I live there.

Paul Adelstein: Same. On March 21st, former US Vice President, Al Gore told the House and Senate that global warming had created a planetary emergency seeking to prompt swift federal action to curb greenhouse gas emissions. Everything's been fine since On April 2nd, the US Supreme Court ruled five to four that the EPA Environmental Protection Agency [00:07:00] did have the authority to regulate automobile emissions of heat trapping gases.

And on March 31st in Sydney, Australia, 2.2 million people took part in the first Earth Hour.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And in famous women who live on Earth News on March 15th, the odds of March Angelina, the odds of March are when Brutus killed Caesar for Wow. Yep. I'm on one today. Um, Angelina Jolie welcomed her son Pax into her growing family with Brad Pitt.

Pax was adopted from Vietnam at age three years old, and then on March 29th, Rihanna released her single umbrella Ella, featuring

Paul Adelstein: Ella.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Featuring Jay-Z, or as we say in Canada, Jay Z. Um, the song went on to number one on the US billboard Hot 100, and stayed there for seven weeks. Wow. And finally, um, this was news that actually our intern did not put in the thing.

I found it elsewhere and I loved it so much that even though I don't understand a word of it, [00:08:00] I'm putting it in. And finally, um, on March 28th, Sri Lankan Cricket, fast Bowler, lath Malinga, nope. Produced. Unprecedented sequence of four Wickeds in four balls as South Africa scrambled to a one wicked super.

Eight ICC World Cup win in Giana. Nope. If you know what any of that means, we invite you to write in No. And tell us. You ever watch Wick? Nope. Oh, well, I shot a movie in India and they were playing a lot of cricket. Like in every empty lot there were cricket games, but I was told that some of them go on for days.

Days. So no. Nope, never, never watched it. Um, but in the interest of not letting our index go on for days, see what I did there? Yep. We're gonna cut to commercial and be right back, or we'll just cut to a pause and be right back.

Okay. [00:09:00] We're back. Okay, we're back. I'm gonna start with you. Okay. You start, because before we started the rewatch, you said, oh, this is my least favorite episode. Yeah. And I don't think that that's because you knew I would spend the entire time screaming Shoot him already at the scene. Uh, at the screen. So why I didn't, let's unpack your feelings, Paul.

Paul Adelstein: Oh, okay. Uh, I didn't feel good about the work. Um, why? Um. Uh, at the time I remember I just, it just felt forced. Okay. I did a lot. I think that in, I heard Paul Giamatti say this great thing about actually on film is like that he's made both mistakes. He's been totally under prepared and he's been totally over prepared.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I was

Paul Adelstein: totally over prepared.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, I can see that. I mean, you read first, wait, let's back up for a second. [00:10:00] You read that episode? Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: It's just

Sarah Wayne Callies: like, oh my God, you know? You know something is coming. Right, because you're already on another show. Right? You've already auditioned for private practice.

Paul Adelstein: I mean, they told me I was, I was leaving, so Yeah, I know. I know it's ending. Yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Were you already cast in private practice though?

Paul Adelstein: It was right around then.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It was right around. Okay. So you know you're leaving the show. And then you get the script. Do you remember like, uh, reading it and how it felt and

Paul Adelstein: I, I just remember like, you know, a great, it's a good, I, I think it's a really, really good piece of writing.

I think it's not, uh, histrionic or overwritten mm-hmm. Which can happen sometimes in those scenes. Mm-hmm. Um, there's not a ton of wor, there weren't a ton of words. Um. And I just remember doing all this work to prepare and it's like, and then at the, on the [00:11:00] day, I didn't feel that present, you know?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, and also

Sarah Wayne Callies: very hard to do a scene like that with an actor.

You've only done one other scene for Uhhuh, you know what I mean? With, I mean, like, that's, that's. Super challenging

Paul Adelstein: and you know, I just think like with anything in life, um, sometimes the anticipation of the thing.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. You know,

Paul Adelstein: way just, just, you know, you just get, I got a little noded up, um, I gotta say 20 years later, you know,

I'd love to, I always, it was always one where I was like, ah, I'd like another swing at that. Hmm, and I don't even, and I'm not even saying that. I'm trying to differentiate between how it felt on the day and what I felt like once I saw it. I don't remember liking it very much when I saw it, but mostly what I remember is not liking it [00:12:00] when I did it, which, you know, it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

Yeah. I can color the whole thing. Yeah. It's just like, oh, I wish. I did not even, like, I wish I did this or that differently. I wish it felt differently, which also I think you learn as you Yeah. Go on and on. And that's none of your business.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Like, yeah, you wish it felt great, but sometimes it felt great, and then you see it and you're like, eh.

Um, yeah. And sometimes it feels shitty and you look at it and you go, well, that's fine. Um, I feel like it, it accomplished its purpose. I, I think looking back on it now, I. After seeing it. I don't know. God, I haven't seen it in forever. I'm like, yeah, it's totally passable. Uh, and, uh, I wish I had, I don't know if this is a weird thing to say.

More fun to do it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, I don't think that's a weird thing to say at all.

Paul Adelstein: Um, Tina was great. I mean, she's just such a great actor. I do remember kind of being saved by [00:13:00] just. Get outta your own bullshit of what I'm feeling and what he's doing and da da da and be like, play. I think, uh, the thing that we, the Meisner stuff we learn, which is the other person's more important, is even more important.

To remember in scenes that are supposed to be very emotional or scenes where you're, uh, it feels, you know, um, like the stakes are huge or that your character's going through something enormous, which obviously mm-hmm. Kellerman is, I think dot it's even more important in that moment. Being like, just look at her.

You want something from her. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I got it. You know, it's like, it's, it's a great, like you were saying, uh, uh, I think a lot of the episode is about, you know, can you correct, Mahon is trying to

get free of this life and make up for bad things. He's done. Uh mm-hmm. Michael is [00:14:00] trying to make teabag, get him to come to justice a little bit, and Kellerman is also looking for, you know, he's, my whole life is in service of something that was, what does he say a lot? Is it a lie or is he said, or,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I think so,

Paul Adelstein: yeah.

Um, what, and she says there's a way. Out. It's interesting you pointed this out, uh, whenever, uh, that character was introduced, last episode of the episode before that it's interesting that they both do things that are service oriented, even though obviously very different. Mm-hmm. And so that her, um.

Orientation towards the world is one in a way that like kellerman's is, is no, there is always something that can be done. Mm-hmm. No, you have to keep trying. No, giving up is not a, a yeah. An option. Um, and so that she's the very much the right person to deliver that message to him.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. I mean, and I, what's interesting to me is [00:15:00] it speaks volumes that he called her.

That of all the people in his life, in that darkest moment. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. It's not Reynolds, it's not Danny's widow, you know what I mean? Like they're, that he goes back. I don't know. I mean, the show, the show has a lot to say about siblings and about family, about that. Yeah, that's right.

The strength of that bond and

Paul Adelstein: yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um,

Paul Adelstein: uh, I al, yeah, sorry.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, I mean it. For what it's worth too. Look, I understand what it's like to get in your head about a scene like that, but I feel like often those scenes, a lot of the work in them is actually done a hundred percent in in the season. That leads up to it, and even the scene that leads up to it where he's so meticulously polishing his metals and his ring and his shoe, you know what I mean?

Like there's this sense of. [00:16:00] I don't know. I mean, of course I didn't, you know, I thought it was a lovely scene. I found it super moving and to see him genuinely vulnerable.

Paul Adelstein: Mm-hmm. Uh, it's great. Um, I mean that, it's a great piece of writing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think that especially on film. Yeah. So much of that work has done for you.

You know, you just, yeah. From everything, from everything. You just gotta sit in it and be there. It's hard. It's hard to do. It's hard to not, you know? Mm-hmm. Wanna do all that work. Um, and she's, well, especially

Sarah Wayne Callies: because often directors and writers will. Make it a big deal. Do you know what I mean? It's like, so let's talk about this scene.

And you're like, it's just a scene. It's just a scene. Let's just do our work. Yeah. Let's just show up and tell the truth. I,

Paul Adelstein: I, I also think that, yeah, again, like I wasn't that green at this point, but again, you know, I don't, I wonder what it says in the stage directions, but you can get the stage [00:17:00] direction thing in your head.

Ugh. Whether tears or whether like, yeah, he breaks down. He breaks down, and we've never seen a man, man break like this. Yeah. You know. Right,

Sarah Wayne Callies: right, right, right, right. Which is all written for the studio. Yes, exactly. But, and it's not written for the actor,

Paul Adelstein: but it's really not written for the actor.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, no, no, it's not.

Um,

Paul Adelstein: you know, it would, for instance, it would never say something like that in a play.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, no, no, no. In fact, I, the last time I read a play, I was like, oh my God. That's right. They don't tell you what to do. They don't tell you what

Paul Adelstein: Well, at all, unless you're eating, um, Eugene O'Neill, and then it's insane.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Yeah. I guess some play, some playwrights can be micro managerial. Yeah. Um. But I even read a script recently that was written by a playwright, and I was like, oh my God, he's not telling the performers mm-hmm. How to perform it. And it's, it's a beautiful sense of trust. Mm-hmm. You know, you're looking at a scene and you're like, I don't know if this scene should be sarcastic or ironic or biting or vulnerable, and that's because we'll [00:18:00] find it, you know, like on the day day, which is really beautiful.

Mm-hmm. Um, the other thing that I, yeah, think, oh, sorry, what were you gonna say please? No, no, no. No,

Paul Adelstein: just shoot him, Joe. No, you just shoot

Sarah Wayne Callies: him. Not you though. Um. The other thing that I think is interesting that's starting to happen is we're seeing the setup for season three. Yeah. So it's, is Sarah gonna go to prison and need to be broken out?

Ah, and then Paul shows up and is like, Ooh, is Paul gonna go to prison? Need to be broken out because he's about to admit to a bunch of crimes like Beeks now been arrested at. You know, I mean, I think there's, there's this sense of, um. Hey guys, if you're gonna watch next season, somebody's gotta go to prison.

Right. Or some like the show's called Prison Break. Um, and so I like, I think it's very clever the way they're sort of setting [00:19:00] things up for a, uh, I don't know, maybe, right? I mean, it's this person.

Paul Adelstein: Are you saying like, we know that people, they know it's gonna be a, well, I guess they, people didn't necessarily know that people were gonna be in.

I mean, there's nobody in prison in two really. But no, that it's gonna be, it's, there's so much teasing of who could go to prison. Well, that's really fun.

Sarah Wayne Callies: People committed a lot of crimes. Mm-hmm. And if any one of them is held accountable and there's a good reason, you know what I mean? Like then, then you could.

Build a season around it, which I just think is kind of fun. Like, it feels like they're playing a bit of a game with the audience. Mm. You know, like, yes. You, you, you think Kellerman's gonna go to jail for everything he's done. Yeah. Maybe. Um,

Paul Adelstein: uh, I, I would just like to point out one other thing, uh, on a, on a serious note.

Um,

uh, [00:20:00] you know, and obviously it's, it's. Related to what we just watched, and I couldn't help but thinking out a time and thinking about how much worse it's gotten since then is that, you know, suicide amongst veterans is an absolute epidemic. Absolute epidemic. We've lost more veterans to suicide than we have in any of the wars is the last Yes.

By a wide margin. Wow. And that's just a total failure of our. Government and our society basically, that we send these folks off and don't take care of them when they come home. It's just an absolute tragedy and I'm, I wish I had more information about it, but can't and a crime. But no, I think you're right

Sarah Wayne Callies: to point that out.

You're really right to point that out.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Absolute epidemic.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um,

Paul Adelstein: has gotten a little better. I mean, it's still awful, but a little better in the last couple years. Um, I don't know if that's 'cause the wars have w are, have been wound down a little bit or maybe there's more [00:21:00] help out there. Maybe there's more awareness.

I know that Warrior Projects have done a lot of, there's been a lot of awareness. Uh, I went to a screening of an amazing movie called My Dead Friend Zoe. Um

Sarah Wayne Callies: hmm.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, which is gonna come out soon. A friend of mine worked on it and, uh, it's, it touches on that. It's very, very funny and touching smart movie. Um, and Harris is in it.

Natalie Morales in it. Definitely. We're seeing,

Sarah Wayne Callies: you know, that's interesting. I, that makes me think of, and this is, this is old now, but maybe six or eight years ago. Um, I went to a screening of a show, of a movie called Man Down. Mm. Uh, that was a shy LaBuff movie, um, and it's about a veteran and struggling with mental health and it was a screening, uh, for veterans.

Mm. Friend I was in the film and invited me to come and one by one these veterans stood up and were [00:22:00] like, I've never seen anybody depict. The struggle like this before because it's told from the perspective of the vet. So you perceive the world through his reality. And it's only at the end where there's this sort of like sixth sense reveal that's like, oh my God.

Yeah, he's safe and he's at home and he has no idea. And, um, they raised a lot of awareness with that, but there's, uh,

Paul Adelstein: yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah, we, we just have to do better.

Paul Adelstein: My dead friend Zoe's, uh, was written and directed by a vet. Who lost friends. Um, and I think it's specifically about one of, one of, I think it's Wow.

Based specifically on one of those friends.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Wow. Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up. Yeah. I appreciate that. Um,

Paul Adelstein: alright. Back to prison Break.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Back to prison break. Oh, this was a small thing, but I noticed when they got into yet another rad looking old vehicle. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: You, you're loving the vehicles.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Loving the [00:23:00] vehicles, but also I remembered Johnny Picture cars.

So there was this guy named Johnny Esia, who I believe joined the show in Dallas and he, his son worked for him who I think was maybe also named Johnny. Um, and Johnny was like one of those heart and soul. People, do you know what I mean? Just like one of those people who every time you see him, your day is better and he's so unbelievably good at his job and I'm, as we're watching this whole season, every car is so cool.

Like there's that station wagony thing with the wood paneling that Michael and Sarah and Lincoln are driving around. There's the Volkswagen that is like all over Mexico. There's this like. And I just, it's not something that, I'll be honest, I notice very often, but I was looking at it and just going, oh, I loved him so much and I think he moved to LA with the show.

Oh. Um, and again, you [00:24:00] know, it was just one of those folks, like even when, you know, there would be days where I was just like sick and pregnant and at this point the. The crew knew I was pregnant, although my morning sickness by this point had passed. Mm-hmm. Um, but like, you know, I'd come in at four in the morning or whatever and I'd leave when I was done work and I'd get into my car and Johnny would've like washed it and detailed it and gassed me up and like, it was just the, like, it was just super lovely.

So this is my shout out to Johnny Picture Cars, who is one of the greats and I imagine outta the business by now. But, um, we were lucky

Paul Adelstein: to have him. That's lovely. Um, Johnny Picture Cars is also such a great,

Sarah Wayne Callies: that's how he was in my phone. Yeah, it's Johnny Picture Cars. Um, so something interesting happens in this episode mm-hmm.

Which is that Michael and Lincoln both refuse to kill people mm-hmm. And [00:25:00] kind of let bad guys go and get themselves in huge trouble. Michael in the end does have to resort to some level of violence to stop teabag. And I just wondered what you thought about, like what's the, what's the morality play in this episode?

Well, what's it saying? I

Paul Adelstein: mean,

Mahon says to Lincoln, you're just like your brother. You guys can't kill you. You can't kill somebody. Right. Um, which is.

Was it Karen Usher, the great writer, uh, for Karen Usher, who we had on the show who said, don't forget Lincoln was gonna kill Terrence Steadman. He just turned out to already be dead. So, uh, he smoked a joint in the.

Yeah. Parking garage and then he, maybe he would've, maybe he would've backed out of it. Maybe it was too much. But, uh, [00:26:00] yeah, I mean, I think the, it's right. I think the morality play of it is, um, there is. Th Well, that they have a moral line that they cannot cross. I mean, the, the, but it keeps

Sarah Wayne Callies: costing

Paul Adelstein: them.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I mean, that, that's what's interesting is it's like if they had both been willing to kill teabag and kill mahon, two people who have taken more lives collectively than anybody else, season they killed their

Paul Adelstein: father.

I mean, and you know Yeah. Like when it says He killed his father. Killed their

Sarah Wayne Callies: father. Killed, their father responsible for haywire s death killed tweener. Responsible for Broy. I mean, just like these are, these are literally serial killers. They could sail off into the sunset and never do violence again.

And it's an interesting, I, I think part of what I'm reacting to was my own freak out as we were watching, and I was just like, just kill him already. Like go for the [00:27:00] greater good. And the, the mahome thing. Michael Schofield's a better person than I am.

Paul Adelstein: The mahome thing is fe this is, I dunno, maybe this is my own moral compass.

Um, no, I know. Feels more complicated. The teabag thing, it would be, I think it would be hard for me to kill another human, but standing in front of a psycho psychotic child rapist, who's also like, I can't get arrested or put in jail and is. And is threatening me and my family at that moment. Mm-hmm. That's an easier thought.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. To take that person down right there, um, it's would still be hard to kill a human, but teabag in that moment.

Sarah Wayne Callies: That's true. And I mean, I'm no, I, I might TV show, I think, I think

Paul Adelstein: I might be able to do it, is what I'm saying.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, but your, I mean, your point about Mahome is a very good one, which is that he is a reluctant serial killer, but he's still

Paul Adelstein: a serial killer.

He still killed father. I mean, he still, and he still spent a long time trying to [00:28:00] kill them also. Yeah. It's not just, they're not at a, in a, um, tribunal, they're in, these people are posing imminent danger to them in the moment

Sarah Wayne Callies: in a country with non-tradition. Well, it's also like, save

Paul Adelstein: yourself, dude.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that, and that's an interesting. That's a, I would almost call it a pathology in Michael, the self-sacrifice

Paul Adelstein: and Sarah too. Like is it a grandiosity or, um, like what is that?

Sarah Wayne Callies: I don't know. It's an annihilation of self in some way. Like, I think there's, maybe they fundamentally both think that they're kind of unworthy or I, I don't know.

But like clearly both Michael and Sarah, you know, Sarah's like 12 years. Okay, I'm going to prison for 12 years. But that was the cost to get Michael his freedom,

Paul Adelstein: so Right. But she didn't know, I mean,

Sarah Wayne Callies: she knew she was getting arrested. Like, [00:29:00] I mean, when she said to him, she said, oh, I'm sorry, when you didn't get on

Paul Adelstein: the boat.

Not when she didn't open the door.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, when she, when she didn't get on the boat and allowed herself to get arrested, it's like, okay, well, yeah, I mean, you understand the bullet you're taking and, uh. I don't know. I, I'm not sure what the show is saying, but I feel like it's saying something.

It's, and um, and for all the times in the show where I'm like, yeah, I think ethically I'm on the same page. I'm not sure if I agree with all of the choices. Uhhuh, because Teabag does go on, teabag does go on too. Be terrible. Now, that said, I could have made the same argument about Kellerman at some point, and his redemption arc becomes really beautiful.

So maybe I just need more faith today [00:30:00] in the redemption capacity of the human spirit.

Paul Adelstein: But there is, uh, and maybe this is again my own weird, I don't know what, but, um, there's something about Kellerman's belief in something higher. Like he's never teabag is a psych, you know, like a sexual sadist mahon starts killing people Really?

That he, he doesn't believe in it. He's doing it to save, he's doing it to save himself. Yeah. Kellerman at least had a higher, felt like he had a higher cause, even though he learns better.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm. Although there's an interesting question about like, does that matter? You know what I mean? Like you kill people in service of something versus killing people in service of nothing.

I absolutely hear what you're saying. I totally hear what you're saying and my instinct is to agree with it, but then I kind of wanna interrogate that instinct and go, well, but what if the thing you're in service of is Nazi [00:31:00] Germany? Do you know what I mean? Like, because lots of people kill lots of people in service of ideologies.

Paul Adelstein: Yes, absolutely. Yes. Uh huh.

Sarah Wayne Callies: We've turned this into a philosophy class. Mm-hmm. But I, for some reason, this episode, uh, I mean that's kind

Paul Adelstein: of what, it's a more, like you said, it's a morality play. I think that's great. Um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: yeah. The whole show kind of is, and it's interesting to see it wrapping up. I feel like I also remember some conversations with Wentworth around this time in the season about like, eh.

I feel like I wasn't the only one. Yeah. Just like I feel like I wasn't the only one sometimes kind of going, what, what are, what are we, what are we saying here? Mm-hmm. What are we saying here and, and also how much of this is the morality that we're choosing because we think it's the right thing for the show, and how much of it is we need to set up another season.

Paul Adelstein: I think it's both. I mean, I think that what [00:32:00] the show does well is, um, pack, pack these morality plays into, uh, into this larger story. I mean, they certainly start, I, I, let me put it that in different way. Uh, the show's good at making these little morality plays as you go along.

Sarah Wayne Callies: It is. But I think what I'm saying, and this is me maybe being a little bit cynical, is you've got a character like Teabag that the network and the studio know, oh, I see.

The audience loves. Yes. And it's like, is it more honest for the police to come into that shack at the very end? And Michael has killed him. And just been like, I, I'm sorry. I cannot let him out. And it's like, okay, now we have a character who's morally very compromised and confused, you know? And Michael gets to spend all of season three going.

I took a man's life. I remember, I think it was the

Paul Adelstein: right move. I remember in [00:33:00] season four or season five, no, season four. And being like, because I had been disconnected from the show for a couple years. Mm-hmm. And coming back and being like, really? He's still alive. He's still here

Sarah Wayne Callies: a hundred percent. And now at

Paul Adelstein: the end of the show, they're really still not gonna put him down.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. That kind of, I mean, just to be very candid, that smacks of a network saying, we're worried fans are gonna miss this character. Sure. And I don't think we live in that kind of a landscape anymore. I think we live in a landscape now, thanks to shows like Game of Thrones and Walking Dead, where routinely audiences are like, first of all, they're you gotta on a show with real estate, somebody's gotta go.

Yeah. Um, and we're routinely gonna kill characters that audiences love. Yep. As a way of, yep. Not only [00:34:00] serving the story, but generating buzz and blah, blah, blah.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, speaking of which, mark Harle, who plays your lawyer, Marty? Yes. Uh, who I remember meeting him that day in the courtroom and then telling him what a fan I was and that he utters one of the funniest lines in cinema history,

Sarah Wayne Callies: which is

Paul Adelstein: what?

I'm not gonna say it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Okay. Um,

Paul Adelstein: okay. I

Sarah Wayne Callies: bet there's a good reason for that. Yeah. What's the film

Paul Adelstein: election?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, I have no idea what you're talking about, but Okay.

Paul Adelstein: Uh, do you know the movie though? Mm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I'd have to refresh. It's not, uh,

Paul Adelstein: it's the Reese Wither, uh, it was like Reese Witherspoon's first movie where she plays the girl running for student president.

It's an Alexander Payne. I did not see it. Alexander Payne movie. It's very, very twisted and funny. Matthew Broderick and,

Sarah Wayne Callies: okay. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: Anyway, uh, I remember meeting him then. And then when we were doing imposters years later, God, a hundred years later, we cast Mark as the father of, um. In bar's. [00:35:00] Father the lead?

No, uh uh Rob Heap's father. Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, so, uh, in bar's, stepfather, uh, sorry. Father-in-law. Okay. Uh, and then we had him for a bunch of episodes. And one of the things that I was adamant about when we were breaking season one was, someone's gotta die. The show is light enough that we have to make mistakes.

And it was Mark Ick who died.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Aw,

Paul Adelstein: I know.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Aw. RIP.

Paul Adelstein: He died a great death though.

Sarah Wayne Callies: PS I don't, we talked about this. I mean, we mentioned it on the rewatch. I don't know why I have such vivid memories of that courtroom. So do

Paul Adelstein: I.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I, I'm not even sure. I don't know why, why

Paul Adelstein: Sure. Why I don't either. And I remember

Sarah Wayne Callies: your entrance is, by the way, one of the coolest entrances in the episode, if not the season.

Just the like, oh, shit. Like it was a big deal. I remember

Paul Adelstein: it was a big deal. And I big also remember. Here's a good, here's a question. Do you [00:36:00] remember? I don't. Did we shoot that as part of this episode? And then no way. Right? They must have taken footage from the next, because in the next episode, there's a whole,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I don't remember the next episode

Paul Adelstein: as my characters on the stand and, and, and you get, you get freed and we do the whole scene.

But like, I always wonder like, okay, oh well there. I wonder if I just came for a day and walked in the room and it wasn't the day we shot. I bet it was 'cause you had many days or a whole day in the courtroom, I would imagine.

Sarah Wayne Callies: No, but I remember you coming into the courtroom that a, um, by the way, I'm so sorry if I'm distracted.

My husband is like tiptoeing around behind us as is it creepy for doing this? I am, I'm sure he is doing something important, but it's, tell him, I tell him, Hey, it's really terrifying. He's laughing at me right now. Um, uh, I remember it all being won. Day, the day of the courtroom stuff and then you entering.

And I [00:37:00] remember it being kind of fun because I'd been working with people all day that I didn't know. And then your entrance, I was like, oh, I get to look at somebody who I know. I get to look at a character with whom history. I have history. And um, and that's interesting to me.

Paul Adelstein: Um, I remember so specifically going to meeting a friend for a drink.

At the loon, at RIP, this crazy Dallas bar, a dive bar, great dive bar. Ooh,

Sarah Wayne Callies: that's awesome.

Paul Adelstein: Ugh, brutal. And, um,

Sarah Wayne Callies: maybe RIP is a good thing. Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: And, uh, a woman, a young woman coming up to me and saying. Oh my God. I was, I, I watch, I was an extra in the scene today. Your entrance was hilarious. And me being like, what?

Wait, what? [00:38:00] I hope not. No, I was like, what? It was like super loud. Kel walks in, there's a laugh track, super loud. I was like, what? Yeah. No, it was not hilarious. I know. I don't know. It was hilarious either. And I was like, oh, what a strange, I wonder what show she thought she was on. Correct. Or what? Like what?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Huh? Yeah. No, not hilarious. Fantastic. Um, by the way, as we've been talking, I'm in my head, I'm like, oh, we answered a bunch of fan questions, but Oh, we did? Okay. Let's, uh, lets,

Paul Adelstein: let's read them anyway, let's, let's take a break and read them.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah, let's come back for 'em. Okay. We'll be right back.

Okay, we're back. Mm-hmm. Um, let me pull up some of these questions because there were a bunch actually from somebody named Paul Guari Amazing, who I believe is your number one fan. Um, and, uh. I mean, this is sort of what we've been [00:39:00] talking about, but what does Kellerman's story say about loyalty and the danger of sacrificing personal morality in favor of ideology?

Do you wanna speak to that a little bit? Or do you feel like you already have?

Paul Adelstein: Sure. Um, I think that that's a very, uh, smart and succinct, uh, way of, of asking the question that we've been talking about in terms of morality plays. I think that what it says specifically. Is blind allegiance to anything.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm.

It is,

Paul Adelstein: uh, very, very dangerous. I mean, like you said, I said, oh, I said, well, Kellerman was doing something that he believed in. And you're like, well, people believe in Nazism. Mm-hmm. Uh, that doesn't make it okay. I mean, I do think that there was a, uh, and I, I totally get it. Mm-hmm. That there is a, simplicity might not be the right word, a clarity.

Of saying, I believe in this thing a hundred percent. I'll do what it takes. Um, you know, you're let off the hook to a certain degree. You don't have to make [00:40:00] decisions about the ethics of something somebody else is doing that you are mm-hmm. Executing, no pun intended.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Mm-hmm.

Paul Adelstein: The agenda. I think that there's a freedom in that, that people find, um mm-hmm.

And it's very, very dangerous.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I almost wonder if maybe in some ways the. I don't know if it's the takeaway, but one of the things that I find myself coming to as I look at history and current events and blah, blah, blah, and folding this in, is anything that requires blind allegiance is a red flag.

Anything where people that's very well said are like, no, no, no, no. Just do what I say. Put your morality aside in favor of mine. Um. I, I would sort of say that feels, that feels, uh, that feels like it's shifted from an ideology to a cult That's right. In ways that are dangerous. That's right.

Paul Adelstein: And, and, um, I, well, I don't have to question this thing [00:41:00] because my leader has said it's

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah.

Paul Adelstein: That, no, my Supreme leader says that no matter what they do, I will never, ever question them because I believe in them.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Right.

Paul Adelstein: Even I believe in this ideology. So no matter what. Where it leads me. It can't be wrong because I believe it. Whether that's politics or religion or, yeah. Yeah. I think even some people this is, or a diet plan.

Or a diet plan or to, in certain cases, art. Yeah. People are like, oh, well, you know, I did it for the, the role. It's like, yeah, you can't, you don't get to treat people that way. You know? Like that's obviously a smaller. Thought or no, but I thi Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: but it's in the same, it's in the same vein. I mean there, you know, for a long time I think people got a certain kind of pass for behaving a certain kind of way.

'cause it's like, well they're such an artist. Its like, absolutely. Yeah. But lots of people can be artists without being assholes. Correct. Figure that out. Right. Um, cool. Mm-hmm. Thank you Paul Algorithm. That was a good question.

Paul Adelstein: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Wayne Callies: [00:42:00] Um,

Paul Adelstein: I got one. Okay. Uh, Theresa Pan asks, Sarah, could you please say at which point you believe Sarah Reti actually believed that Michael had true feelings for her?

What was the moment that Sarah realizes, oh, he didn't just use me. He actually has feelings. Can you identify that? That's an interesting question. Yeah, very good question.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Um.

It would be after Rendezvous Uhhuh, right? Yeah. So season two, somewhere after, wait, sorry. Your plan is to vanish with you and your brother. One of my favorites. What? What? Um,

and then she leaves and. I [00:43:00] wonder if it's in that hotel after the rendezvous, the hotel with

Paul Adelstein: Oh, when Michael's with her?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. So like in between meeting up with him the first time and then they're running away from Mahome. Mm-hmm. And he could have left her if there was anything that was like, I just need her for blah, blah, blah.

Mm-hmm. That's not it. He could have left her. Mm-hmm. Um.

Because this is also before the key, right? He doesn't come to her for the key. Mm-hmm. So there's this moment where I think they're in the hotel, she leaves him, gets into the car, and I think what gets her out of the car is, no, I think, I think he's actually just here. Because he wants to do the right thing because he cares about me and I don't have anybody else.

And I, fuck, I think I care about him too. And then she stands up [00:44:00] into the gun in her face. But I, I think that's because there's not really a moment, you know, which I like. I like that the show doesn't carve out a moment for them mm-hmm. To like, have a heart to heart. And the closest they ever get really, I think is in the bathroom.

On the, on the train. On

Paul Adelstein: the train, yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. Um. Uh, I think we kind of answered this, but yeah. Marni dash 16. Paul, what time at, at the time did you think Kellerman was really dead or did you believe it was staged and he'll be back later? This is sort of a question for season for the next episode, I guess.

Um, yeah. Yeah, we can do that in the next episode. Sorry, Luke can cut that. Yay. Um.

Let's see, some of these I marked for next episode. Um, Paul Algorithm had another one that I thought was kind of interesting. Paul and Sarah, when you look back at Kellerman and Reti today, how [00:45:00] would you describe yourselves in one sentence? I think he means the like long interaction, like the arc of.

I don't know what, how do you make a mashup of their names? Reti. Oh, tank. Tank Kremen. Is that, that Quest? May, maybe not. Maybe When you look back on Klerman and Tank today, how

Paul Adelstein: do you describe yourselves in one sentence,

Sarah Wayne Callies: or maybe they mean the character Charact.

Paul Adelstein: I thought that, I thought that what that meant, but

Sarah Wayne Callies: what do you think?

Paul Adelstein: One sentence. Could it be a compound sentence? Um, yes. It can be a run on, oh, golly. Um, uh, in one sentence, I think

I would say the pros and cons of the a man, uh, a person moving through [00:46:00] the pros and cons of the warrior mentality.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Ooh. By the way, I like the double entendre with pros and cons.

Paul Adelstein: Ah, unintentional. But I'll take it.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Uhhuh. I see what you did there.

Paul Adelstein: I didn't, but yay.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I see what you did there. I'm giving you credit.

All right, let's see. I think we probably got time for one more. Um, let me see. At Planet Sarah 2024 wanted to know if Kellerman had a dating profile, what do you think it would say? Oh gosh. Ex-government assassin looking for redemption in a golden retriever.

Paul Adelstein: Um, true believer.

Sarah Wayne Callies: True believer. Let me believe in you.

Paul Adelstein: True believer, um, brings his own bells.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I

Paul Adelstein: love it. Um, what would Sarah say?

Sarah Wayne Callies: Dating profile. Yeah. Uh, taken

Paul Adelstein: damn.[00:47:00]

Sarah Wayne Callies: Taken. Um, this is actually, I kind of like this one too, at Ingrid sj. If the show had ended in season two, what would've been your ideal finale for your character at this point? So if we say show is over. Yeah. Michael's gonna kill teabag. Ah, shoot the fucking guy. Yeah. Um. Then what's the, what happens? So Kellerman goes into the courtroom.

Let's take it from there. Kellerman and Sarah in the courtroom, we're gonna give ourselves the grace of knowing what happens next episode, where, yeah, he makes, he gives testimony, she's exonerated. What happens next? Ideally.

Paul Adelstein: I mean, I think he gets, he's in the back of that van on his way [00:48:00] to prison

and they come in with shotguns and you think he's killed, but maybe he's not. I mean, isn't that, that's a great ending.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Oh, that's kind If, if whole show was over. Yeah. It's like if whole show, maybe he's in the wind. Yeah, maybe he's, maybe that was the

Paul Adelstein: company letting him out. Maybe it was his own people.

Maybe they killed him.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I like that.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah,

Sarah Wayne Callies: I like that. Mm-hmm. What about Sarah? Well, I mean, if it's the whole show, you do want her to end up with the guy. Yeah, I think, yeah. And I think after everything they've been through together, um, yes. I mean, just him

Paul Adelstein: and his brother

Sarah Wayne Callies: and his brother on a boat, on a boat we're back to that fan fiction of Sarah and Lincoln bickering constantly.

Um. I, I mean, I, I think it's [00:49:00] okay. No, here's, here's my fanfic ending. I just

Paul Adelstein: saw a thought. Cross your face. It was so cool. A

Sarah Wayne Callies: thought. Cross my face. Um, so Kellerman gives his testimony. Mm-hmm. It succeeds in, uh. Shutting down the company. Ooh. By which I don't mean everybody is arrested because that feels like a little bit much, but maybe Kim is brought down.

Everybody else, like Kaiser Soce is into the wind, right? Mm-hmm. They all vanish on their trillion dollar yachts. Mm-hmm. Michael and Lincoln are as a result, exonerated. Um, which I think means instead of killing teabag, teabags gotta like trip and fall on something that kills him. And Michael and Sarah and Lincoln get to live not on the run.

I think they probably still leave the us. Mm-hmm. I, I think they're probably like, yeah, you guys wanna buy a place in The Bahamas. Mm-hmm. But they don't have to spend the rest of their lives [00:50:00] pretending they're not who they are. Mm-hmm. I want the happy ending of like. No, you can, you know, be safe and happy someplace.

And also then Lincoln can like move on and have a nice life and reunite with his son and, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. That's very

Paul Adelstein: nice. That's very

Sarah Wayne Callies: nice. Um, it's not very exciting though, isn't it?

Paul Adelstein: No, it is. Because you, it would be lovely. The boat and the thing and the, the boat and the thing. Yeah. And then the.

Living happily after. Yeah. I do think Maho

Sarah Wayne Callies: should go to jail.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Probably.

Sarah Wayne Callies: I do. I think, I think he and Kim should be Yeah. Uh, cellmates.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. In instruments of the instruments of the state in that way probably. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Yeah. 'cause you do always have a choice to say no. Hmm. And that, that actually I think is what's kind of cool about what Kellerman's sister has to say.

Like, you have a choice to start over and you do always have a choice to say no. Hmm. ViiV [00:51:00]

Paul Adelstein: appropriate on May 1st.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Probably on May 1st, which by the way, um, some of you pointed out to me on Instagram this morning is apparently Sarah Tre's birthday. You

Paul Adelstein: said this. This is amazing. Happy birthday, Sarah Reti.

Sarah Wayne Callies: So happy birthday, Sarah Trei. And with that we will take you to the credits.

Paul Adelstein: Yeah. Um, thank you everyone for being with us today. As always, we invite you to check out our watch party episodes or you watch a show with us in our scintillating realtime commentary, which it's just me screaming. Shoot him, shoot him, shoot him.

These are available to our Patreon community, please join it. There's also all sorts of good bonus, um, content in there. And, uh, you'd all have access to the show's Discord, which is a thriving online community. Um, you can actually is. It's kind of amazing. It is. Yeah. And you can, um, join that from the show page on wherever you're listening to the [00:52:00] podcast right now or watching.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Thank you. And be good to each other in interesting times.

Paul Adelstein: Yes. Also, prison breaking with Sarah and Paul is a caliber studio production.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And your host have an inmate, Sarah Wayne Kaz and Paul Stein,

Paul Adelstein: and our prison warden is producer Ben Haber.

Sarah Wayne Callies: And cutting us up in the yard is, uh, editor Luke Singer,

Paul Adelstein: and the front man of our jailhouse rock band is Paul Adelstein who made all our music.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Did you almost just mispronounce your last name? No. Did you almost say Adelstein? I just slowed it down. Okay, fine. I want the thing to catch up, right? And Yes. And our prison yard tattoo artist logo and brand designer is John Nunzio at Little Big Brands. Check them out at little Big brands, www. Little Big brands.com.

Paul Adelstein: Follow the show on YouTube on Instagram at Prison Break Podcast. Email us at PB podcast@caliberstudio.com.

Sarah Wayne Callies: Join the watch party and our Discord community through the Patreon Link in the notes wherever you're listening right now, because

Paul Adelstein: prison breaking with Sarah and Paul has been a [00:53:00] caliber studio production. Thank you for listening. Thank you for listening. Uh. Bye bye bye.