Paul (00:03.735) Hello and welcome to this episode of the Digital Humans podcast. I'm Paul Ashcroft. This podcast explores what it means to be human in a world where technology is rapidly reshaping our reality. We meet entrepreneurs, startups and industry pioneers at the forefront of innovation, diving into breakthrough ideas and disruptive technologies that are shaping our future. In today's episode, we're exploring how AI technology is revolutionizing the fitness industry. And I'm thrilled to be

Welcoming our guest, Sunil Jindal. Hi, Sunil.

Sunil (00:37.302) Hi, nice to be here.

Paul (00:39.137) Thanks so much for being on the podcast. Sunil is the co-founder and chief product officer of Magic AI. It's an innovative in-home health coach that uses computer vision, connected weights and specialized cameras to deliver personalized training with world-class athletes. And you may well have heard of Magic before. Magic's been featured on Good Morning Britain, stocked in Selfridges, named as one of Time Magazine's best inventions of 2024.

Backed by VC firms and investors from Spotify, Stripe, Facebook, and Tough Mudder, Magic is making waves in AI consumer tech. Bit about Sunhill before Magic. Sunhill U helped scale Hubble to 10 million in VC funding. You've worked in retail hardware at Apple, and you founded London's largest sports startup league. You also built training products with fitness influencer, Diren Cuttell. You have a background in physics from Imperial College.

and you bring deep expertise in AI and hardware development. So once again, welcome. I'm super excited to have this conversation with you.

Sunil (01:44.814) Thanks for having me on, that was a great intro.

Paul (01:47.531) Well, there's a lot to cover, right? So let's get into it. So now why don't we start, just tell us a bit more about yourself and of course about magic, please.

Sunil (01:56.632) Short year, so as you mentioned, co-founder and chief product officer of Magic AI. we started the business about three years ago and since then we've grown very, very fast. Right now I'm actually sitting in our third office space, I believe, so we've transitioned quite a bit. The team has grown quite a lot as well, so a few months ago we were five people and now we're much bigger. We closed the funding round actually a few months ago, so we raised $5 million and that's helped us to scale.

Paul (02:01.655) We started the business about three years ago and since then we've grown very, very fast. Right now I'm actually sitting in our third office space, I believe, so we've quite a bit. The team has grown quite a lot as well, so a few months ago we were five people and now we're much bigger. We took the funding run actually a few months ago, so we raised five million dollars and that's helped us to scale.

and we have quite a few sort of crazy plans for the next few months so some point later this year we will be expanding out to the US so a lot is happening at the moment outside of Magic Home so playing a lot of table tennis so trying to get to top 100 in England which is has been my goal for the past two or three years now currently got a couple of small injuries which I'm sort of doing physio for but hopefully I'll be back on it soon. Is the table tennis in the office there for you?

Sunil (02:26.576) And we have quite a few sort of crazy plans for the next few months. So some point later this year, hopefully we'll be expanding out to the US. So a lot is happening at the moment. Outside of Magic, I also play a of table tennis. So I'm trying to get to top 100 in England, which has been my goal for the past two or three years now. Currently got a couple of small injuries, which I'm sort of doing physio for. But hopefully I'll be back on it soon.

There is an... There is an unfortunate... I did set up a league a few years ago and that was one of my businesses. I was working with quite a few different sort of companies around London and we were connecting businesses like Monzo and WeWork and they were coming together to play some table tennis but we don't have a table in the office unfortunately.

Paul (02:56.768) Do you have a league running? bet there's a league running there at Magic, Esther.

Paul (03:03.36) years ago

Paul (03:18.294) Tell us a bit about magic. What is magic?

Sunil (03:22.07) Yeah, sure. So Magic is an AI personal trainer. It's one of those businesses, one of those products that is a little bit hard to describe. think the best way of understanding it is visually, but let me see what I can do. So it's essentially a four foot tall smart mirror. And if you don't know what a smart mirror is, just think of a big version of your phone. The screen is a mirror, but behind that you have a computer that runs similar to your phone.

Paul (03:37.354) So it's essentially a 4 foot tall smart mirror. If you don't want a smart mirror, just think of a big version of your phone. The screen is a mirror.

But behind that you have a futa that runs similar to your phone. We basically run a fitness application that attracts your body movement. So we have a long set of workouts that we've recorded and we produce sort of showcases on the mirror. So you follow along with a workout and have a load of professional athletes like Alistair Cook who's been cooking for England. You've got Cathy Jones who's cooking and dancing. There's several other athletes as well.

Sunil (03:52.137) and we basically run a fitness application that tracks your body movement. So we have a long set of workouts that we've recorded and we produce.

sort of showcases on the mirror. you follow along with a workout. You have a loaded professional athletes like Alistair Cook, who used to play cricket for England. You've got Cathy Jones and Shruthi Khan dancing. There's several Olympians as well. And you essentially follow along with one of their workouts or the workouts of another instructor. And we use computer vision to track your body movements. So you might be doing a squat, for example, we can count how many reps you do and we correct your form if you do something wrong. So it's like having

Paul (04:17.64) actually follow along with one of their workouts, we work out another instructor and we use computer vision to track your body. So you might be doing a squat for example, you can count how many reps you do and we correct your form if you do something wrong. So it's like having an AI personal trainer inside your home. Sounds amazing. What was the inspiration about this? How did you come to doing this? Obviously you're a sportsman yourself, but why an AI powered personal trainer?

Sunil (04:33.482) an AI personal trainer inside your home.

Sunil (04:45.614) Yeah, good question. I have quite a big background in fitness. I've worked with Diren Cartel, you mentioned earlier, he was a big fitness influencer. The initial idea actually came from my co-founder. So he was going through his own sort of personal training journey where he hired a PT. He was carrying a lot of weight and you hired a personal trainer to sort of lose some pounds. And one of the things that he learned was that personal training is not accessible for the average person. The typical price for personal training

Paul (04:46.963) So I have,

that you mentioned earlier, this big fitness influencer. The initial idea actually came from my co-founder, so he was going through his own sort personal training journey where he hired a PT. He was carrying a lot of weight and he hired a personal trainer to get his pounds. And one of the things that he learned was that personal training is not accessible for the average person. The typical price for personal training in London is around 50 pounds per hour.

Sunil (05:15.598) London is around 50 pounds per hour. And so we kind of thought, is there a way we can make this more accessible to the average person? So we came together. Varen had these very initial concepts. And with my background in fitness, working with PT just before this, and various other projects I've worked on too, we sort of started working on the concept of magic. I think from where we first started, it's only been three years so far, but we have

Paul (05:19.125) And so, you we kind of thought, is there a way we can make this more accessible to the average person? So we came together, you know, Barry had these sort of very neutral concepts. And with my background, know, fitness, working with PT just before this, and know, various other projects I've worked on too, we sort of started working on the concept of magic. I think from where we first started, it's only been three years so far, but we have come a very long way already.

Sunil (05:45.488) come a very long way already.

Paul (05:50.385) I'd like to come back a bit to that story and the journey, but as we stick with the mirror and the magic AI product itself, how effective is it, would you say? I mean, you mentioned a little bit there about how it's helping you correct your form. Does it improve your training? What sort of results have you seen with it?

Sunil (06:10.252) Yes, good question. So our goal is to replace a personal trainer and you know, to get to that point, it's very much a journey. I wouldn't say we're there just yet, but it can do a lot of things that a personal trainer can do and also do it better.

Paul (06:12.912) is

Paul (06:19.284) say we're there just yet but it can do a lot of things that a person can do and also do it better. In terms of what it can do at the moment is it can count your reps, it can correct your form, it can recommend what weight to use as well for an exercise.

Sunil (06:29.038) In terms of what it can do at the moment is it can count your reps, can correct your form, it can recommend what weight to use as well for an exercise. So depending on how well you're performing the exercise, our computer vision technology recommends when to increase or decrease the weight. And the nature of the product is that because we use computer vision and we collect a lot of data, we can use that data to give you a very personalized and nuanced experience and we can pick up on things that a personal trainer

Paul (06:38.408) Depending on how well you're performing the exercise our computer vision technology recommends when to increase or decrease the weight And the nature of the product is that you know because we use computer vision and collect a lot of data We can use that data to give you a very sort of personalized and nuanced experience and we can pick up on things that are a personal trainer You know comp because they don't have that numerical data to hand So, you know whilst the PT can give you more in the sense of accountability you know it's one of the areas that are

Sunil (06:58.832) because they don't have that numerical data to hand. you know, whilst the PT can give you more in the sense of accountability, you know, it's one of the areas that a lot of people use a PT for, there are additional benefits that, you know, we already provide that a PT can't. But also in saying that, you know, I think accountability is something that we can start doing, especially when we think about the direction that AI is heading in. And if anything, the technology is only going to get better.

Paul (07:08.294) a lot of people use a PT for there are additional benefits that you know we already provide that a PT can't but also in saying that know I think accountability is something that we can start doing especially when we think about the direction that AI is heading it and if anything the technology is only going to get better so we will slowly well potentially quickly with the way AI is developing I think quite quickly we will get to a point where we'll be people will be thinking about

Sunil (07:28.752) So we will slowly, or potentially quickly, with the way AI is developing, think quite quickly, we will get to a point where people will be thinking of us as a replacement for a PT.

Paul (07:40.419) Yeah, and you mentioned AI there. How is AI technology, let's say supercharging magic? It's not, to my understanding, it's not that you're pre-playing programs and you're just following along a pre-made program. It seems very much more tailored to you. How is that working?

Sunil (08:01.722) Exactly. Yeah, so there's various different ways we use AI. So we have our own sort of technology which we would reflect AI and what we've done is that that's where the sort of computer vision comes into play. So we've built a series of algorithms and we've trained, you know, all these models that we have in place to sort of track when a user is performing an exercise properly and when they're not. And, you when they are doing something correctly, we count their reps and when they're not doing something correctly, that's when we

Paul (08:22.947) is

Paul (08:27.307) when they are doing something correctly, we count their reps. And when they're not doing something correctly, that's when we give them feedback on how they can do things better. And that's essentially where the AI currently comes into play. And that data is also used to feed into the algorithm that we have in place when it comes to recommending what weight you should use for an exercise. We also feed into other of AI tools that companies these days are starting to do.

Sunil (08:31.536) give them feedback on how they can do things better. And that's essentially where the AI currently comes into play. And that data is also used to feed into the algorithm that we have in place when it comes to recommending what weight you should use for an exercise. We also feed into other AI tools that companies these days are starting to do. companies are starting to feed into chat GPT and other tools out there at the

Paul (08:57.113) starting to feed into charging the tea and other sort of tools out there at the moment. There's one really interesting thing we're working on at the moment which sort of utilizes our existing Reflector AI technology which is the body scan. So our product at the moment is very much geared towards becoming a personalized fitness application but the direction we want to go is becoming more a helper.

Sunil (09:01.456) there's one really interesting thing we're working on at moment which utilises our existing Reflect AI technology which is the body scan.

Our product at the moment is very much geared towards becoming a personalized fitness application, but the direction we want to go in is becoming more of a health app. If you look at the sort of general trends with the market, personalized fitness was, it's been a big thing for the past few years, but personalized health is becoming a much bigger thing now. Ultimately, people, what they care about is their health, and that is why...

Paul (09:23.891) If you look at the sort of general trends with the market, personalized fitness was, it's been a big thing for the past few years, but personalized health is becoming a much bigger thing now. Ultimately, people, what they care about is, is that helpful? That is why our customers use this product, right? They care about, they might care about sort of lifting heavier weights or completing more reps, but ultimately what they're thinking about is becoming healthier and happier.

Sunil (09:40.214) our customers use this product, right? They care about, they might be, you know, care about sort of lifting heavier weights or...

completing more reps, ultimately what they're thinking about is becoming healthier and happier. So we're trying to gear this more towards becoming an AI health coach. And that's where things like this, this body scan feature are very useful because we can scan somebody's body and we can report back on things like their body fat percentage and their lean muscle mass, which ties in very closely with our sort of core goal here as a company.

Paul (09:54.002) We're trying to gear this more to becoming an AI health coach. And that's where things like this, this body scan feature are very useful because we can scan somebody's body and we can pull back on things like their body fat percentage and their lean muscle mass, which ties in very closely with our core goal here as a company. So that's fascinating. So do you see this as something that it sits because it's essentially a beautiful piece of furniture, I guess, when it's off, you know, it's a magic mirror.

You said at the start, I guess it's a mirror, right? It's when you're not using it as a fitness tool, then it's a mirror. It's a piece of furniture in your house. Do you see it as something that is part of just your living experience as a human? Are we going to see more of this, these sort of tech-enabled things around our home that are helping inform essentially how we live and how we live healthier lives?

Sunil (10:48.398) For sure, yes. I think on the first part of what you're saying there, the product most of the time is off stage. Most of time it is just the mirror sitting in your home and you can use it to comb your hair or whatever.

And what is really amazing about it from what we heard from customers is that it blends in seamlessly with the furniture in your house. We've had customers talk about friends coming to visit and asking what this is. There was a customer recently who mentioned that they have the mirror. One of their friends came around and they thought it was just a mirror. And they asked about it. They said, this is a really nice piece of furniture. And then it was only when this person turned the mirror on did they realize that actually you can do so much more.

Paul (11:08.242) you know, it blends in seamlessly with the furniture in your house. We've had customers who talk about friends coming to visit and asking what this is. There's a customer recently who mentioned that they have the mirror, one of their friends came around and they thought it was just the mirror they asked about and they said, yeah, this is a really nice piece of furniture. And then it was only when this person turned the mirror on did they realize that actually you can do so much more. And yeah, I think...

Sunil (11:33.696) Yeah, think personalized fitness, as I saying, has been a trend for a while. have all these wearable devices that people wear. And this is kind of the latest in that line. And then personalized health is kind of what we're starting to focus more on. I think that is starting to become a bigger thing, and it will be something that we kind of...

Paul (11:36.178) I think personalized fitness, as I was saying, has been a trend for a while. have all these wearable devices that people wear. And this is kind of the latest in that line. then personalized health is kind of what we're starting to focus more on. I think that is starting to become a bigger thing and it will be something that we kind of, tech will start playing a much bigger role in our lives. Not that it hasn't already, but.

Sunil (11:59.736) tech will start playing a much bigger role in our lives. Not that it hasn't already, but with the advancement of AI, I think it will become a much, much bigger thing. And we will see devices like this in people's homes or on their wrists as they currently do. Obviously Apple, we're working on their Apple Vision Pro recently, which is another really interesting direction for us to head in as a...

Paul (12:04.242) with the advancement of AI, think it will become a much, much bigger thing. And we will see devices like this in people's homes or on their wrist as they currently do. Obviously Apple, kind of been working on their Apple vision probably recently, which is another sort of really interesting sort of direction for us to head in as a society. We'll sort of see what happens.

Sunil (12:27.487) as a society, we'll sort of see what happens, but I think there's lot of interesting things on the horizon.

Paul (12:32.517) Yeah, you mentioned personalization and I think you said earlier that you're investing in personalization yourselves. When you're creating like a personalized program and will it be able to adapt as your body changes and depending on how you're getting on and maybe even how you're feeling that day, tell us a little bit more about how you see that working.

Sunil (12:53.658) Exactly. So our goal, as I said, is to become an AI, an AI personal trainer. We want to replace an actual human PT. And so what is it that a PT brings? It's kind of, I suppose, it's in the name, right? It's that fact that a personal trainer is that personalization, which is what we're of really honing into here. yeah, personalization is kind of our sort of big focus in doing what we can to sort of make the experience

Paul (13:00.529) human PT. And so, you know, what is it that a PT brings? know, it's kind of, I suppose, it's in the name, right? It's that, the fact that a personal trainer is that personalization, which is what, you know, we're kind of really honing into it. So yeah, personalization is, it's kind of, our, our sort of big focus in doing what we can to sort of make the experience as personalized as possible for people. one good example is, you know, let's say,

Sunil (13:23.542) as personalized as possible for people. So one good example is, let's say you didn't sleep so well last night. typically what you would do is you'd probably end up missing your workout because you didn't sleep so well. But what we can do is because we have data such as this and any other sort of metrics we collect, we can really use that to create a very hyper-personalistic experience for you. as an example, what we can

Paul (13:31.133) you don't sleep so well, you didn't sleep so well last night. typically, you what we do is you either, you probably end up missing your workout because you didn't sleep so well, but what we can do is because we have data such as this and any other sort of metrics we collect, we can really use that to create a very hypersensitive experience for you. as an example, we can do in that scenario is maybe we can shorten your workout. So rather than being 30 minutes, it's 15 minutes. So at least that way you're getting

Sunil (13:53.344) could do in that scenario is maybe we could shorten your workout. So rather than it being 30 minutes, it's 15 minutes. So at least that way you're getting something in rather than nothing, which is quite common for people. But yeah, it's really about that data. I think collecting personalized data.

Paul (14:00.625) something in wrong with it nothing which is quite common for people. But yeah, it's really about that data. think collecting personalized data, know, data that's specific to that user helps us to create a much more personalized experience for that user. So we have a feature that we're working on at the moment which you've sort of briefly mentioned which is creating a sort of personalized program or personalized plan for our users.

Sunil (14:11.418) data that's specific to that user helps us to create a much more personalized experience for that user. So we have a feature that we're working on at the moment, which you sort of briefly mentioned, which is creating a sort of personalized program or personalized plan for our users. So we want to create an experience where when you turn the mirror on, it doesn't feel like Netflix where you you have to sort of go through hundreds of workouts and choose what's best for you. Because that in itself is, you can say that in itself is a workout.

Paul (14:28.784) We want to create an experience where when you turn the mirror on, it doesn't feel like Netflix where you know have to sort of go through hundreds of work hours and choose what's best for you. Because that in itself is, you can say that in itself is a workout, What we want to be doing is we want to create an experience where you turn the mirror on and you trust that the workout that we recommend for you to do is what's best for you to do in that moment. Because when you have a human, you know,

Sunil (14:41.166) you

What we want to be doing is we want to create an experience where you turn the mirror on and you trust that the workout that we recommend for you to do is what's best for you to do in that moment. Because when you have a human PT, they're not giving you a choice of 100 different workouts to choose from. They're telling you what to do and you trust that they're telling you what is best for you. So that is a big feature we're working on at the moment. And part of that is obviously fed from the data that we collect.

Paul (14:56.848) They're not giving you a choice of 100 different workouts to choose from. They're telling you what to do and you trust them. They're telling you what is best for you. So that is a big feature we're working on at the moment. Part of that is obviously created from the data that we collect based on the users' past experiences using the product, but also looking at their various different metrics to determine what makes the most sense for them. And that is ultimately, I think, direction we're heading in as a...

Sunil (15:11.96) based on a user's past experiences using the product, but also looking at their various different metrics to determine what makes most sense for them. And that is ultimately, I think, direction we're heading in as a business, I suppose, using technology to create a very personalized experience for our users.

Paul (15:26.448) as a business, You put it very personal experience, very useless. Yeah. You mentioned a couple of times that the goal essentially is probably nothing personal to personal trainers, but replacing the personal trainer and making personalized training more accessible to people. For me, this falls under the discussion around how AI is going to replace jobs. And I'd have thought before this conversation,

personal trainers would have been one of the last to be at risk of this. How do you think AI is changing the landscape of jobs? Do you think it's going to add to what we do or is it replacing us?

Sunil (16:09.454) That's a good question. think in some ways, it will add to what we do. I think the way I see it working, and again, I don't think I thought this through in a lot of detail, but off the top of my head, the way I see this happening is that if we look at developers, for example, the moment, so we look at engineers.

Paul (16:11.801) in some.

Paul (16:16.975) I think the way I see it working, and again, I don't think I've talked this through in a lot

Paul (16:25.84) is that if we look at developers, for example, so we look at engineers, not just engineers, but let's use the example of engineers. So they use tools like ChatGP Team to maybe check their code or find ways to improve their code or find solutions to problems they have. So at the moment, it's being utilized as a tool to improve.

Sunil (16:33.261) not just engineers, but let's use the example of engineers. So they use tools like ChatGPT to maybe check their code or find ways to improve their code or find solutions to problems they have. So at the moment, it's being utilized as a tool to improve, to sort of upscale yourself, to sort of make you better. But.

Paul (16:53.079) to sort of upskill yourself, to sort of make you better. But at some point I can see it, I can see what can happen is that the technology will get to a point where it's actually better than us in the sense that it can actually replace everything that we do. So I think we're building up to a point where right now the technology for some roles.

Sunil (16:59.47) At some point I can see it, I can see what can happen is that the technology will get to a point where it's actually better than us in the sense that it can actually replace everything that we do. So I think we're building up to a point where right now the technology for some roles, it kind of adds to what we do, but we'll get to a point where I believe it can actually replace what we do. And I think on the topic of personal trainers, we do get backlash sometimes.

Paul (17:18.977) It kind of adds to what we do, but we'll get to a point where I believe it can actually replace what we do. And I think on the topic of personal trainers, you we do get backlash sometimes from PT's always, you know, worried and perhaps, you know, have different views believing that, you know, what we're building can't replace what they do. And I think, you know, that is, that comes from a point of worry, I suppose, in some ways.

Sunil (17:29.424) from PT's who obviously are worried and perhaps have different views believing that what we're building can't replace what they do. I think that comes from a point of worry, I suppose, in some ways. You have plenty of people out there who obviously...

Paul (17:47.757) There are plenty of people out there who have jobs and money for a minute. It's obviously very worrying for people. They believe that at some point they won't be able to do what they currently do. I think that applies not just to us but just generally across the spectrum with the way AI is moving.

Sunil (17:51.586) know, have jobs and know, earn money from it. It's kind of, you know, it's obviously very worrying for people if they, you know, if they believe that at some point they, you know, they, won't be able to, to sort of, you know, do what they currently do. So, you know, I think, I think that applies not just to us, but just generally across the spectrum, right? With the way AI is moving, I think, you know, we're going to get to a point quite, quite likely where it's going

Paul (18:17.142) I think, yeah, we're going to get to a point quite likely where it's going to probably replace a lot of the existing roles. But, you know, this has happened in the past as well. And what's typically happened is that, you know, your role becomes redundant, but then a new role which is up and you move into a different area. Hopefully that that is, you know, what will happen. I have also seen talks of like setting up a universal basic income because of the impact that it's having on society.

Sunil (18:21.54) to probably replace a lot of the existing roles. But this has happened in the past as well. And what's typically happened is that your role becomes redundant, but then a new role opens up and you move into a different area. And hopefully that is what will happen. I have also seen talks of setting up a universal basic income because of the impact that AI is having on society, which is also very interesting. But I think typically, if we look at history and what

Paul (18:45.912) is also very interesting but I think typically if we look at history and what has happened in the past what often happens is that okay one particular job disappears but then

Sunil (18:51.46) happened in the past, what often happens is that okay one particular job disappears but then the technology opens up new opportunities. So hopefully that is what will happen.

Paul (19:03.14) Hopefully that is what will happen. I also, I personally, I see what you think of this. I'm an optimist myself in that at the moment, I don't know, you could probably tell me what percentage of people train or keep fit in any particular demographic or country. But tools like this, which essentially make fitness more accessible and people becoming more conscious of essentially is a bigger market.

So it doesn't mean you're always gonna work out at home. Why not you go to the gym, you work out with a personal trainer. That personal trainer is also then suggesting additional workouts that you can do at home that complements the work that they're doing together in the gym. It just becomes, and I play golf and I know maybe it's the same with table tennis, but a lot of these industries have adapted to, yes, you need the coach, of course you do, but.

it can be supported and the coach can be supported by a lot of the technology that people have in at home on their wall in terms of the mirror and so on. What do you think of that?

Sunil (20:07.67) Yeah, for sure. mean, I feel really bad when I say that we're trying to replace a personal trainer because there's obviously a lot of hardworking personal trainers out there who are earning their money through this. And the implications of what we're building could be negative to some people. But obviously, our goal is to improve people's lives. That's why we do what we do.

Paul (20:13.581) There's only a few loaded.

Paul (20:19.887) and the implications of what we're building could be negative to some people, but obviously our goal is to improve people's lives. That's why we do what we do. So I think we'll really see, I think one of the big things that a person really does bring at the moment is accountability. I have friend who, actually somebody we hired recently, we used to have a personal trainer, he was telling me that

Sunil (20:31.598) So I think we'll really see, I think one of the big things that a personal trainer does bring at the moment is accountability. And I have a friend who, actually somebody we hired recently, who used to have a personal trainer and he was telling me that there were times where he wasn't sleeping very well because he had noisy neighbors.

Paul (20:46.18) There were times where he wasn't sleeping very well because he had noisy neighbours, but he was still going to his personal training sections because he didn't want to his P2 down. So I think accountability is a really big part of this. So at the moment I definitely agree that, yeah.

Sunil (20:50.434) but he was still going to his personal training sessions because he didn't want to let his PT down. so I think accountability is a really big part of this. So at the moment, I definitely agree that our product for some people probably supplements going to see a real life PT. also, at the moment, you'll get people who are, like as you said, your example, but also for table tennis, I have a very specific routine that I follow that we haven't built for on the mirror just yet. And I need to go to

gym to do this. So I think right now, yeah, you'll get people who, know, probably are better off working out in the gym, people are better off working at home. But in terms of what the future holds, I think, you know, that's to be seen.

Paul (21:33.719) to be seen.

Sunil (21:34.894) I did sort of speak to I met one of my friends recently and she showed me a demo of this this voice agent which I thought was very interesting so One thing I've come across before one thing I've I've heard People using is this concept of like an AI virtual girlfriend so people started to build relationships with with AI which I find Very fascinating and when my friend showed me this voice agent the other day What we did is we we called this this this

Paul (21:35.149) I did sort of speak to, I met one of my friends recently and she showed me a demo of this voice agent which I thought was very interesting. one thing I've come across before, one thing I've heard people using is this concept of like an AI virtual girlfriend. people started to build relationships with AI which I find very fascinating. And when my friend showed me this voice agent the other day, what we did is we called this,

Sunil (22:04.918) number and on the other side was an AI voice. And at one point in that conversation I felt an emotional connection with this voice and I felt like it was an actual human being. And that...

Paul (22:05.142) number and on the other side was an AI voice and at one point in that conversation I felt an emotional connection with his voice and I felt like it was an actual human being and that

Sunil (22:21.514) is when I had much more confidence around the ability for us to incorporate this concept of accountability into the product that we're building at Magic. And when I talk about accountability, I mean the relationship between yourself and the technology. you know.

Paul (22:21.746) is when I had much more confidence around the ability for us to incorporate this concept of accountability into the product that we're building at Magic. And when I talk about accountability, I mean the relationship between yourself and the technology.

Sunil (22:45.922) What we're trying to do and what our longer term vision here is to actually make the mirror feel like an actual personal trainer, like an actual person. And when I experienced this AI voice agent experience, because I felt that emotional connection, it sort of made me realize that, OK, I think what we're trying to do here is much more realistic than that.

Paul (22:46.131) What we're trying to do, what our long-term vision here is, to actually make the mirror feel like an actual person, like an actual person. And when I experienced this AI voice agent experience,

Because I got that emotional connection and sort of made me realize that, okay, I think that what we're trying to do here is much more realistic than, well, I much more confidence in the ability for us to do this than I previously did. And, people have relationships, you that's been something that's obviously ongoing, I suppose what I mean is that we started to think of the technology as a person, right?

Sunil (23:15.476) I had much more confidence at least in the ability for us to do this than I previously did. And you know, people have relationships with technology, that's been something that's obviously been ongoing. I suppose what I mean is that we're starting to think of the technology as a person, right? And I think natural language processing is kind of the goal of what we're trying to do with AI and make technology.

Paul (23:35.038) natural language processing and the goal of what we're trying to do with AI and make. More more human like, yeah. I mean, I was going to ask you, when you interact with ChatGPT or another gen AI agent, are you polite to it? Or do you just give it commands?

Sunil (23:50.574) Alright.

That's a very good question. So I use chat GPT most days now and I am polite. I think I was talking to it yesterday and I actually asked myself like consciously I was thinking about should I be demanding or should I be polite? And I feel like everything's connected. So it's kind of like if my conversation with chat GPT is demanding, then maybe that's something that will transfer into my conversations with actual humans. So was like, let me talk in the same way I talk to humans.

Paul (23:53.355) Are you touching me?

Paul (23:58.667) Yeah. Maybe worse with you're teaching it to be demanding of you back. Right. So

Sunil (24:24.598) Yeah, exactly. I think the other concern was that as the technology improves at some point in the future, it's probably going to surpass what we can do as humans. So when it's using me rather than using it, then it will remember that I've been polite to it. So hopefully it will.

Paul (24:36.65) we think of as human. you know, when it's, when it's using a needle and we use it against, you know, it will remember that idea for life. We best be nice to it, right, when we have our AI overlords.

Sunil (24:49.642) Exactly, yeah, so hopefully you'll remember that I've been nice to it so it can be nice back to me, but...

Paul (24:54.376) I do think it's fascinating that you, so who, where have you seen when magic is going well, you you've got a great following and a great customer base, understanding particular, know, women particularly like magic. Why do you think this is? mean, A, is that the case? And B, why do you think that is?

Sunil (25:13.878) Yeah, good question. So we find that our core demographic tends to be mostly women in their sort of mid 30s to 60s. What we found is that when you get into your sort of late 30s or early 40s,

Paul (25:17.748) be mostly women in their mid 30s to 60s. What we've found is that when you get into your late 30s or early 40s, unless you're regularly doing training, you start losing muscle mass. And so we find that there's a poor demographic of people here who perhaps haven't worked out before, so they don't really know what to do.

Sunil (25:29.462) unless you're regularly doing strength training, you start losing muscle mass. And so we find that there's a core demographic of people here who perhaps haven't worked out before, so they don't really know what to do. They don't have time to go to gym, which is quite common, especially with sort of busy working parents. Or people who just don't feel comfortable in the gym. And typically you find that people who sort of meet this criteria tend to be,

Paul (25:45.61) They don't have time to get to the gym, which is quite common, with busy working parents. Or people just don't feel comfortable in the gym. And typically you find that people who meet this criteria tend to be women. There's a customer of ours called Nicola, think she posted something recently on social media about her journey using the product.

Sunil (25:59.328) to be women. There's like a customer of ours called Nicola who she posted something recently on social media about her journey using the product.

It was really fascinating because she spoke about how she used to be part of a gym and then the gym closed down and the next closest gym tour is about a 30 minute drive away. She's two young kids and what she said is that the mirror is great because she can wake up in the morning. She doesn't have to get ready or anything. She can just go downstairs and before her kids wake up, she can get a workout in. And you know, it's great for people like that because you know, one, I she's really busy.

Paul (26:13.93) It was really fascinating because she spoke about how she used to be part of a gym and then the gym closed down and the next closest gym to her is about a 30 minute drive away. She's two young kids and what she said is that the mirror is great because she can wake up in the morning, she doesn't have to do get ready or anything, she can just go downstairs and before her kids wake up she can get her work done.

And it's great for people like that because one, especially she's really busy. She doesn't need to get ready, which for women I think in particular can take longer than it men. It's really easy for them be downstairs, just do your work. Nobody's watching now and you should get something done. And she just posted a photo the other day of her fingers off her back to show how much stronger her back is versus what it used to be before.

Sunil (26:43.664) She doesn't need to get ready, for women, I think in particular, can take longer than it can for men. So it's really easy for to go downstairs, just do a workout. Nobody's watching her because she gets something done. And she just posted a photo the other day of, I think it was of her back, just to show how much stronger her back is versus what it used to be before. And it's great because we talked about earlier how you have products like Magic, but you also have actual personal trainers.

Paul (27:03.959) and it's great because we talked about earlier how...

You know, have products like magic, but you also have actual, uh, as the trainers and you know, the moment, you know, there's people who like Nicola who, you know, she's gonna have the mirror. probably wouldn't be getting to the gym because she'd have to travel half an hour every day to get there. Um, and so, you know, for somebody like her having product, the mirror is pretty useful. Um, but obviously also there are plenty of people out there who, uh, you know, going to the gym is, very useful and very beneficial for, it's just about, you

Sunil (27:13.584) There's people who like Nicola who if she didn't have the mirror she probably wouldn't be going to the gym because she'd have to travel half an hour every day to get there. And so for somebody like her having a product like the mirror is really, useful. But obviously also there are plenty of people out there who going to the gym is very useful and very beneficial for. It's just about I think typically women, especially women like Nicola, love to use

Paul (27:38.283) think typically, yeah, especially women like Nicola, love to use products like magic. And I understand you mentioned this earlier, that you're thinking about new directions for magic. So I guess particularly with the female following, are you thinking beyond just fitness? know, or the rather, can it act in a coach for other parts of your life, whether it's dancing or other areas? You know, how else are you imagining or what else are you planning if you can reveal it?

Sunil (27:43.504) to products like Magic.

Sunil (28:03.086) Yes.

Sunil (28:07.732) Yeah, sure. So we have a few dance classes on the mirror already. So these were filmed by Katya Jones, who's a professional dancer of Strictly Calm Dancing. We have yoga that we are rolling out very soon as well. So there's going to be a big focus on yoga.

Paul (28:20.008) soon as well. there's going to be a big focus on yoga. That will happen very soon. Pilates is another sort of modality we're going to be producing. There's a lot, there's a lot that we can do.

Sunil (28:26.574) soon. Pilates is another sort of modality we're going to be introducing. But there's a lot that we can do. I think generally what we want to do with this product is not just focus on various different modalities, but as I was saying, turn it into more of health coach. So at the moment we focus very heavily on showing you how many reps you've done, showing you your form quality.

Paul (28:34.696) I think generally what we want to do with this product is not just focus on various different modalities, but as I was saying, turn it into more of a health coach. So at the moment we focus very heavily on showing you how we actually dial the quality. But what we've learned is that people like Nicola and our core demographic, what they care about is their health. Because as I said, these are people who, know, in their late 30s,

Sunil (28:52.546) What we've learned is that people like Nicola and sort of a core demographic, what they care about is their health because as I said, you know...

These are people who, know, in their sort of late 30s, 40s onwards, they don't care as much about looking good. For them, it's more about health, right? Improving, you know, lifespan and, you know, sort of happiness in later years, health and happiness in later years. And so what we want to start doing is bringing the health metrics to the forefront. So things like your lean muscle mass, you know, your body fat percentage.

Paul (29:04.783) 30s, 40s onwards. They don't care as much about looking good for them, it's more about health, right? Improving lifespan and sort of happiness in later years, health and happiness in later years. And so what we want to start doing is bringing the health metrics to the forefront. So things like your lean muscle mass, your body fat percentage, metabolic age as well is another thing.

Sunil (29:28.878) metabolic age as well is another thing actually in calories burned and you your sort of you know heart metrics, heart health as well. So these are things that we want to start focusing on much much much more because these are the things that our users you know really care about. I think not just that we use this, just people I think people in general that is kind of you know health is what we should if we don't already what we should be prioritizing right. It should be

Paul (29:42.272) more because these are the things that our users really care about. Not just our users, people in general, kind of, is what we should, if we don't already, what we should be prioritizing to be close to if not number one.

Sunil (29:56.684) close to if not number one. So that is kind of the direction that we're heading in. I think if we sort of look a bit longer term, so we speak about AI and the direction that AI is going. So we've started to use GenAI in the product already. And one thing that we do at the moment is at the end of your workout, you basically receive personalized feedback from the instructor in their voice. And they give you feedback on how you've done in the workout and what you can do better next time. So...

Paul (29:59.896) So that is kind of the direction that we're heading. I think if we sort of look a bit longer term, so we speak about AI, the direction that AI is going. So we started to use GenAI in the product already. And one thing that we do at the moment is at the end of your work, you basically receive personalized feedback from the instructor in their voice. And they give you feedback on how you've done with the work and the one you could prepare next time. for example, they'll sort of explain how many calories you've

Sunil (30:25.942) for example, they'll sort of explain how many calories you've burned, your form of quality was, but they'll also look at your exercises, they'll analyze your exercises, and they'll see what did you do well and what didn't you do so well. For example, if you were squatting and you didn't squat very well, they'll sort of find what the problem was and they'll say, okay, next time you do a squat, make sure you focus on going lower, for example.

Paul (30:29.722) really form a quality list, but they'd also look at your exercises, they'll analyze your exercises and they'll see what did you do well and what didn't do so well. For example, if you were squatting and you didn't squat very well, they'll find what the problem was and they'll say, okay, next time you do a squat, make sure you focus on what's lower, for example. It's fast, it feels very much like a personal trainer, it would sound.

Sunil (30:55.956) to feel very much like a personal trainer would sound. And yeah, I think that is the start of what we can do with Gen.ai. At some point, the video side of generative AI is going to get to a point, I believe, instead of having a studio, which we use to film content, I think it would just be case of just typing in bit of text into, and yeah, it can just generate your workout for you.

Paul (30:59.879) And yeah, I think that is the start of what we can do with Gen.ai. At some point, the video side of Gen.ai is going to get to a point, I believe, instead of having a studio, which we use to film content, I think it would just be a case of just typing in a bit of text. Prompting, yeah. And yeah, just generally a work out for you.

Sunil (31:25.056) One of the benefits of that is imagine if...

Paul (31:25.264) One of the benefits of that is imagine if...

Sunil (31:30.19) the instructor on the screen wasn't some professional athlete or some other random person. But imagine if it was you or a future version of you. So elite athletes talk a lot about visualization and using the power of visualization to achieve your goals. But imagine if you could see what you want to look like in a year's time. And that version of future you is what's training present you to become future you.

Paul (31:30.408) The instructor on the screen wasn't some professional athlete or some other random person. But imagine if it was you or a future version of you. So, know, elite athletes talk a lot about visualization and kind of using the current visualization to achieve your goals. And imagine if you could see what you want to look like in a year's time. And that vision of the future of you is what's training presently to become the future you.

Sunil (31:59.09) and know, could also sort of speak in the same voice as you. I don't know how people feel about that because I know people don't like hearing their own voice, but I think there's a lot of really interesting things we can do with this technology and that is only the starting point to be honest.

Paul (31:59.175) And you know, it also could also sort of speak in the same voice as you. don't know how people feel about that because I know people don't like hearing their own voice. But I think there's a lot of really interesting things we can do with this technology that is that is only the starting point. Yeah, that's incredible. It's an incredible idea. As you say, I'm very aware of this sort of how sports people and others use visualization to to improve their skills. You know, the stories of gymnastic.

gymnasts who have been injured, and they did done all of their preparation for the Olympics from a hospital bed or from their recovery room, by essentially visualising rehearsing the moves they have to make, and they then went and competed and won. So that's quite, that's quite fascinating. I'm also fascinated by the idea of the sort of interface with technology that magic is presenting as an idea, because we're with magic in particular, we're beyond

You're interfacing with a keyboard or a mouse or a trackpad or something, but very much in a very natural language, human, almost a human way, right? Do you see this as a trend that as AI steps out of the box, as it were, we're gonna find other applications where we're interacting with our technology in a much more human-like way that's just

part of our lives.

Sunil (33:28.014) For sure, yeah, that is a really interesting point. One thing I didn't mention is that we are going to start incorporating voice commands into the product. So at the moment, it is very much like a big version of a phone and you go up and you sort of press lots of buttons, but this isn't how you interact with an actual personal trainer. You sort of communicate verbally as we're communicating now. And right now, the way the product works is that, as I said, yeah, it's very much sort of touching the mirror. You'll hear a voice speaking,

Paul (33:37.318) It is very much like a big version.

buttons but this isn't how you would

Communicate both of you.

Paul (33:53.638) Yeah, it's very much touching the mirror. You'll hear a voice speaking back to you, for example, you know, the instructor on the screen is talking to you or you'll get this personalized feedback from the intercession. But it's only one way communication. We want to incorporate voice so that you can start talking to the mirror and the mirror will talk back to you. that is where we start getting into the realm of, you know, feeling like a much more sort of a human, a human experience.

Sunil (33:57.92) back to you, for example, the instructor on the screen is talking to you or you'll hear this personalized feedback at the end of the session. But it's only a one-way communication. We want to incorporate voice so that you can start talking to the mirror and the mirror will talk back to you. And that is where we start getting into the realm of feeling like a much more sort of...

Human a human experience where you're talking to a person. I think a good example. I often think about is is Star Trek so I'm a big fan of Star Trek and in Star Trek they have these sort of communication devices and you know you can sort of You can just sort of talk to talk to the computer and he'll talk back to you or Jarvis is you know Probably a more relatable example that I'm sure a lot of people know about from from Iron Man

Paul (34:20.741) You're talking to a person. think good example I often think about is Star Trek. So I think about Star Trek and in Star Trek they have these sort of communication devices and you can sort of just sort of talk to the people and talk back to you. Or Jarvis is probably more relatable example that I'm sure a lot of people know about from Iron Man, where Jarvis is just like an AI.

Sunil (34:43.554) where Java is just like an AI, right? You can sort of talk back to you. And I think that is the direction we are going in as a society. When we talk about NLP, so natural language processing, that is very much the sort of the goal with this, right? To try and make it feel natural. When we say natural, I suppose we mean human-like.

Paul (34:47.877) And I think that is the direction we are going in as a society. When we talk about NLP, so natural library processing, is very much the goal with this, to try to make it feel natural. When we say natural, it's supposed mean human-like.

Sunil (35:07.726) I think it's very, I think the future is very scary but interesting.

Paul (35:08.165) I the future it's very scary but interesting. And these would be software updates if you've invested in a mirror already or you're buying one tomorrow, will you be able to access these new programs and potentially even the new voice activated features? Is it mostly going to be software updates? Exactly. So we switch to regular updates to mirror in a similar way to how you receive one.

Sunil (35:26.05) Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So we push regular updates to the mirror in a similar way to how you receive an app update on your phone. We've already made sure that the hardware is in place for things like this. So when we do roll out more features and more things around voice commands, then any existing customers can use it too.

Paul (35:36.153) We have the, we've already sort of like made sure that the hardware is in place for things like this. And when we do roll out more features and more things around to the voice commands, then yeah, any existing customers can use it too.

Paul (35:52.866) I want to talk a bit about a bit more about your experience of growing a tech business, which I'm personally fascinated by. I'm sure a lot of our listeners are. So you have you've done this where you've taken an idea or you and your co-founder, you've taken an idea, relatively complicated, a new idea and very much at the forefront of things. What's been your experience of taking that from ideas into actually a real product that's

really in the shops, that's really online and is growing and going well, what are some of the things that you've got right? Is there anything you wish you'd do differently? What advice do you have for someone who's about to embark on a similar path?

Sunil (36:36.098) Yeah, good question. for us, me and my co-founder, we both went to the same school, but we only really got to know each other when we worked at Tubble. So we were both part of the founding team at Tubble, and that's where we properly became friends.

Paul (36:46.341) So we were both born in Simonstein, Kabul, and that's where we probably became friends. And that was the first job I had off the university. I spent, it was only a year and a half, I spent in the company, but I often say that the time I spent there, the experiences I had were much more impactful in my life than my three-year physics degree at Imperial, which is saying something, because I think studying physics at Imperial is no small feat.

Sunil (36:55.138) That was the first job I had after university and I spent, it was only a year and a half I spent in the company, but I often say that the time I spent there, the experiences I had were much more impactful in my life than my three year physics degree at Imperial, which is saying something because I think studying physics at Imperial is no small feat.

Paul (37:16.426) and

Sunil (37:17.558) The experiences I had at Hubbell have helped a huge amount for what we're doing here at Magic. Being part of the founding team at Hubbell meant that I could go through much of the early stage journeys that a business goes through. Pretty much everybody around me when I joined the company was somebody I looked up to, somebody I could learn from, and I'd consider a mentor.

It was just an amazing environment. I'd say, anybody who wants to embark on a similar journey, if you haven't already, I definitely recommend finding a really good early stage startup and becoming a part of that. But also in saying that, there's lot of successful founders out there who haven't been on that journey and have found other ways to get to their goal. So I think the crucial part, I believe, is just surrounding yourself with

people that you kind of look up to and can learn from and want to become like, suppose. That is the key. And you can find that in corporations. It doesn't need to be in startups. You can find it in big businesses too. But the people, finding the right people is what's key there. In terms of what we've learned, I you know, like I don't often, I don't think I reflect enough on how far we've come because...

Paul (38:19.951) find out in corporations. It doesn't mean it's getting stuff out. You can find any big businesses.

Sunil (38:40.306) There's always so much going on, working flat out all the time. It's quite hard sometimes to take a step back. But we've only been around for three years or so when we have come a very long way. But I think we tend to look forwards more than we look back in startups and try to understand where is it we want to go and just try and push to get there. I think in terms of advice, I would give beyond what I've already said.

One of the sort of issues we had in the early days when we first started, because we didn't really have any money, we were bootstrapping, we worked with a couple of external teams to build an initial prototype. So we had a team based in India who building the application, the actual software for us. And then we had another sort of factory we worked with to build the hardware. And both of those, I'd say, like I was totally honest, they were...

very bad. I don't like to sort of be negative, but I won't put anybody down. But yeah, they were very, very, very sort of challenging sort of working with them. And I think although it's only been three years to get to where we are now, I think we could have done it a lot quicker if we didn't have them. We had the sort of teams that we have in place now. But obviously, you know, to have what we have in place now, we needed money.

Paul (39:43.758) put anybody down, yeah, they were very, very, very sort of challenging sort of working with them. And I think although it's only been three years to get to where we are now, I think we could have done it a lot quicker if we didn't have the sort of teams that we have in place now. But obviously, you know, to have what we have in place now, we needed to go through that learning as well, I'm sure, right? In the first case, yeah.

Sunil (40:07.39) Exactly, Yeah, so the learning, yeah, the learning was super important to sort of help us to get to where we are. I think we learned very quickly that, you know, the people we had at the time weren't, the teams we had at the time weren't the best for us. But the issue was that they were so deeply ingrained in what we were building, they were so crucial to the project that we couldn't really replace them.

Paul (40:15.555) I think we learned very quickly fast the people we had at the time weren't the best startups. But the issue was that they were so deeply ingrained in what we were building, they were so crucial to the project that we couldn't really replace them. At one point I did, I think I was on a three hour call which went nowhere, it was very stressful. But in saying that, they did...

Sunil (40:31.468) At one point I did and I think I was on a three hour call which went nowhere and it was very stressful. But in saying that, did eventually help us build something that allowed us to raise our pre-seed and then that helped us to hire a team internally which then took us to a seed and here we are now with an even bigger team.

Paul (40:41.699) They did eventually help us build something that allowed us to raise our pre-seed and then that helped us to hire a team internally which then took us to a seed and here we are now with an even bigger team. Yeah, well it's an inspiring journey and an inspiring story and a fantastic product. I absolutely encourage people to check it out. Where can people find and buy Magic AI? So Neil?

Sunil (41:10.546) Yes, so if you want to try it out, which I do recommend, I think it's one of those products you have to try to really get to grips with how it works. We're in Suffrages, so you can find us in Suffrages in London. If you want to check it out online, our website is magic.fit, so magic.fit.

Paul (41:29.378) Thank you. I'm hoping that you're going to get many more people joining the personalized fitness at home.

band of warriors. I've got one more question for you, if I was to be so bold. How do you think magic AI is going to change our world?

Sunil (41:52.622) That's a question. think what we'll find is that, well, hopefully our goal is for more people to live longer, healthier lives, I suppose, if we think about it. And there are plenty of people out there at the moment who don't work out regularly, who don't exercise regularly. They end up either becoming obese or sort of...

Paul (42:06.07) Longer healthier lives, suppose, if we think about it. And there are plenty of people out there at the moment who don't work out regularly, who don't exercise regularly. They end up either becoming obese or getting some other disease and ending up going to the doctor's hospital, taking all this medication.

Sunil (42:22.574) getting some sort of other disease and ending up going to the doctor's hospital, taking all this medication. Our goal is to prevent that from happening in the first place, right? So by building an AI health coach, we hope that we can get more people into fitness and get more people feeling comfortable working out as well. It helps that you can do that at home.

Paul (42:31.138) Our goal is to prevent that from happening in the first place, right? So by building an AI hub coach, we hope that, you know, can get more people into fitness and get more people feeling comfortable working out as well. You it helps that you can do that at home. And we want to create a much more personalized experience for our users, right? So we hope that we'll be able to give people this experience with free magic and creating this very sort of hyper...

Sunil (42:48.142) We want to create a much more personalized experience for our users, right? So we hope that we'll be able to give people this experience through magic and creating this very sort of hyper-personalized experience. think with the way AI is moving forward, think what we can do with the magic product, but also as a society in general, hopefully we use it for good rather than for bad.

Paul (42:59.616) hyper-parasite experience. I with the way AI is moving forward, think what we can do with the magic product also as a society in general, hopefully we can it for good rather than for bad. I think it kind of starts, I do often think about what is the kind of balance

Sunil (43:18.446) I think it kind of starts, I do often think about like, you know, what is the kind of boundary between AI and human because I think, you know, the way AI is going, as I mentioned, the example of the AI, the AI agent, the AI voice agent, it sounds, you know, when I was talking to this AI voice agent, it sounded very much like I was actually talking to a real life, to actual human being. And you start questioning, you know, what is the difference between AI and what is the difference between human? So,

Paul (43:47.233) Yeah, yeah, so I think if we are trying to replace personal trainers, I think AI is going to play a really big role in that. I suppose we'll see what happens. And I very much like, as you said earlier, your mission about democratizing personalized fitness. think that's a goal I would sign up to, absolutely.

Sunil (43:48.332) Yeah, yeah. So I think if we are trying to replace personal trainers, think AI is going to play a really big role in that. And I suppose we'll see, we'll see what happens, but yeah, exciting.

Paul (44:13.801) So Neil Dindal from Magic, it's been absolutely a pleasure to talk to you. Once again, if people want to check out the product, it's in Selfridges. And if you don't want to go down to Selfridges, it's at magic.fit. But again, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a real pleasure to hear your story.

Sunil (44:32.622) Thanks for having me on, been great fun.

Paul (44:35.307) Thank you. That wraps up another episode of the Digital Humans podcast. If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to subscribe on your favourite podcast platform so you don't miss an episode. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.