1 00:00:03,069 --> 00:00:05,389 CHRIS PACKHAM: People always underestimate just how tough it 2 00:00:05,389 --> 00:00:08,750 is to be a bird, fragile little thing you've got to go halfway 3 00:00:08,750 --> 00:00:11,989 around the world every year and back again. I mean, it's a, you 4 00:00:11,989 --> 00:00:15,039 know, it's a tough life and and and that's what we show on 5 00:00:15,039 --> 00:00:19,030 Springwatch that, you know, it's always been tough, you know, for 6 00:00:19,030 --> 00:00:22,159 wildlife, but things are getting tougher due to the, you know, 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,030 the extra burden and pressures that we're putting upon it. 8 00:00:28,959 --> 00:00:32,520 AJAY TEGALA: Hello, my name is Ajay Tegala, and today we're 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,240 bringing you a special bonus episode of Wild Tales, a 10 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,880 springtime conversation with wildlife legend Chris Packham. 11 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,389 Chris is a wildlife activist, he's open about his journey with 12 00:00:45,389 --> 00:00:49,150 autism, and he's been presenting Springwatch for over a decade. 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,959 We've travelled up to the Longshore Estate in the Peak 14 00:00:51,959 --> 00:00:52,549 District. 15 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,389 It's a beautiful location with rolling hills, lots of trees, 16 00:00:56,470 --> 00:01:00,159 and a fair amount of birdsong. For the past 3 weeks, Chris has 17 00:01:00,159 --> 00:01:02,909 been filming Springwatch here, seeing the best of British 18 00:01:02,909 --> 00:01:06,269 wildlife, and there was one story that particularly caught 19 00:01:06,269 --> 00:01:07,059 our ears. 20 00:01:14,500 --> 00:01:17,300 I worked on the Norfolk coast and one of my highlights was 21 00:01:17,300 --> 00:01:21,099 seeing migrant pied flycatchers. So small birds, black and white, 22 00:01:21,220 --> 00:01:24,379 not your little brown jobs, but beautiful black and white 23 00:01:24,379 --> 00:01:28,930 plumage, catching flies having just crossed the sea. And now to 24 00:01:28,930 --> 00:01:32,599 see one in a nest in a nest box on Springwatch. How does it feel 25 00:01:32,599 --> 00:01:34,180 to be following that this year? 26 00:01:34,250 --> 00:01:36,730 CHRIS PACKHAM: Yeah, it's a treat. I mean, very, very rare 27 00:01:36,730 --> 00:01:39,330 visitors to where I grew up in the south of England and live 28 00:01:39,330 --> 00:01:43,209 now in the in the New Forest. So if you want to see pied flies 29 00:01:43,209 --> 00:01:46,040 these days, you've got to go to the western side of the UK. 30 00:01:46,209 --> 00:01:49,250 There are a few in the West Country and then in Wales and 31 00:01:49,250 --> 00:01:53,279 then stretching up into the Lake District. Striking males, as you 32 00:01:53,279 --> 00:01:56,290 say, dark brown, black and white, striking birds. 33 00:01:56,970 --> 00:01:59,529 And the female a little bit duller, but still nevertheless 34 00:01:59,529 --> 00:02:02,169 very, very beautiful. But I think aside from that, they're 35 00:02:02,169 --> 00:02:05,730 indicators because they are a barometer of what's been 36 00:02:05,730 --> 00:02:08,889 happening to many of our bird species on account of the 37 00:02:08,889 --> 00:02:10,880 pressures that we've put upon them. 38 00:02:11,149 --> 00:02:13,449 Pressures start here at home, you know, there's been a 39 00:02:13,449 --> 00:02:16,279 significant decline in large flying insects, and that's what 40 00:02:16,279 --> 00:02:18,210 they're feeding on and that's what they're feeding their young 41 00:02:18,210 --> 00:02:22,610 on due to the abuse and and dependence of chemical 42 00:02:22,610 --> 00:02:23,940 insecticides. 43 00:02:25,059 --> 00:02:27,740 And then of course the trials and tribulations of of 44 00:02:27,740 --> 00:02:31,860 migration, which is just incomprehensible to us. You a 45 00:02:31,860 --> 00:02:34,919 tiny little bird weighs a few grams. It's got to fly all the 46 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:35,809 way to Africa. 47 00:02:36,020 --> 00:02:38,649 AJAY TEGALA: And that one of the themes of Springwatch this year 48 00:02:38,899 --> 00:02:41,614 is that nature writes the story of the season, but that's 49 00:02:41,614 --> 00:02:41,779 changing. 50 00:02:42,529 --> 00:02:44,800 And I, I wondered if there's anything in particular this 51 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:49,080 year, a key moment or a key story that symbolises change of 52 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:49,970 spring for you. 53 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,679 CHRIS PACKHAM: Well, I mean, Springwatch is a learning 54 00:02:52,679 --> 00:02:55,440 experience for all of us because we are confronted by things that 55 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,229 we haven't thought about previously, and then we need to 56 00:02:58,229 --> 00:03:00,669 understand them. And one of the things that we've uncovered this 57 00:03:00,669 --> 00:03:03,300 year is the intense competition between great tits and pied 58 00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:05,990 flycatchers, and our great tits nest in my garden. 59 00:03:06,070 --> 00:03:08,509 pied flycatchers don't, they're not a bird I know as well. I 60 00:03:08,509 --> 00:03:11,399 don't see them as frequently. So when I come here, I want to 61 00:03:11,399 --> 00:03:14,869 learn as much about them as possible. And what we see is 62 00:03:14,869 --> 00:03:18,470 that great tits are nesting over a broader period of the spring, 63 00:03:18,509 --> 00:03:20,020 they're starting to nest earlier. 64 00:03:20,889 --> 00:03:24,770 By the time the pied flies arrive, in the past, great tits 65 00:03:24,770 --> 00:03:26,929 would have been coming to the end of their nesting period, and 66 00:03:26,929 --> 00:03:28,649 there would have been opportunities for the pied flies 67 00:03:28,649 --> 00:03:31,289 to use their nest holes. That's not now the case, and we're 68 00:03:31,289 --> 00:03:35,369 saying that 10% of prospecting male pied flycatchers being 69 00:03:35,369 --> 00:03:36,410 killed by great tits. 70 00:03:36,610 --> 00:03:39,649 Great tits are a feisty little bird, you know, so that that 71 00:03:39,649 --> 00:03:44,130 isn't unusual, but pied flies are a species that's in trouble. 72 00:03:44,210 --> 00:03:46,970 Great tis are increasing. We put a lot of food out in the UK 73 00:03:46,970 --> 00:03:49,009 that's contributed to that increase in some way. 74 00:03:49,429 --> 00:03:52,490 Pied flies are migrant, they're struggling in their wintering 75 00:03:52,490 --> 00:03:55,300 ranges, they're struggling, you know, during that process of 76 00:03:55,300 --> 00:03:58,630 going to and fro, migrating, you know, a great distance across 77 00:03:58,630 --> 00:04:01,190 the planet, and now they're confronted with this 78 00:04:01,190 --> 00:04:04,869 asynchronicity, which is an impact of climate breakdown, and 79 00:04:04,869 --> 00:04:08,350 we're seeing that as something which is real and tangible and 80 00:04:08,350 --> 00:04:11,509 having impacts on these birds' populations, and it's, you know, 81 00:04:11,869 --> 00:04:12,990 pretty terrifying, really. 82 00:04:13,550 --> 00:04:16,989 It's making all of that big existential thing that we 83 00:04:16,989 --> 00:04:20,450 imagine as a separate entity. That we imagine is something we 84 00:04:20,450 --> 00:04:24,209 can do nothing about. It's making it very real when you 85 00:04:24,209 --> 00:04:27,929 look into a pied fly box and see a dead animal there that's come 86 00:04:27,929 --> 00:04:31,299 all the way from Africa to breed and is prevented from doing so 87 00:04:31,299 --> 00:04:33,200 because the seasons are messed up. 88 00:04:33,290 --> 00:04:36,170 AJAY TEGALA: Oh gosh, yes. And I work at Wicken Fen where we have 89 00:04:36,170 --> 00:04:38,970 lots of cuckoos, or I say have lots of cuckoos, we're seeing a 90 00:04:38,970 --> 00:04:42,089 similar thing where that synchronicity is changing and 91 00:04:42,089 --> 00:04:45,609 their numbers are decreasing. As well as of course, the shortage 92 00:04:45,609 --> 00:04:47,480 in insects, the decline in insects. 93 00:04:48,410 --> 00:04:51,369 The winners to me seem to be some of the heron species that 94 00:04:51,369 --> 00:04:54,970 we're seeing increase in numbers, the egrets, and indeed 95 00:04:54,970 --> 00:04:58,570 also cranes as well. And that's nice to see the habitat 96 00:04:58,570 --> 00:05:01,984 restoration especially of wetlands is providing these 97 00:05:01,984 --> 00:05:04,894 habitats that are enabling some of these species to really go 98 00:05:04,894 --> 00:05:06,015 from strength to strength. 99 00:05:06,225 --> 00:05:08,744 CHRIS PACKHAM: Yeah, I mean, we must be clear, it's not all bad 100 00:05:08,744 --> 00:05:11,984 news. Certainly when it comes to generalist animals with a very 101 00:05:11,984 --> 00:05:14,345 broad niche so that they can live in different habitats, they 102 00:05:14,345 --> 00:05:17,545 can feed on different things. They're more robust, if you 103 00:05:17,545 --> 00:05:18,625 like, ecologically. 104 00:05:19,109 --> 00:05:23,119 And they are prospering and the heron species are amongst those 105 00:05:23,119 --> 00:05:25,579 groups which are. The other thing that you mention is 106 00:05:25,579 --> 00:05:28,670 habitat restoration, and this is one of the things which 107 00:05:28,670 --> 00:05:32,630 consistently frustrates me, and that is that we deal, you know, 108 00:05:33,230 --> 00:05:34,779 constantly with all of the problems. 109 00:05:34,910 --> 00:05:38,500 But what we have to remember is that we have so many solutions, 110 00:05:38,510 --> 00:05:43,589 you know, we have the capacity to rebuild, restore, reinstate, 111 00:05:43,750 --> 00:05:47,470 reintroduce the cranes and you know, it's just that we're not 112 00:05:47,470 --> 00:05:50,070 doing it broadly enough and we're not doing it rapidly 113 00:05:50,070 --> 00:05:52,790 enough. We're not short of ideas and we're not short of ideas 114 00:05:52,790 --> 00:05:54,220 that have been tried and tested. 115 00:05:54,630 --> 00:05:57,190 We're short of them, the motivation, the energy and the 116 00:05:57,190 --> 00:06:00,350 determination to, to make sure that they're happening, you 117 00:06:00,350 --> 00:06:04,350 know, in, in real time, and that's, you know, for me, that's 118 00:06:04,350 --> 00:06:07,839 incredibly frustrating because if I thought there was no hope, 119 00:06:08,029 --> 00:06:10,779 I just, you could be forgiven for giving up. 120 00:06:10,779 --> 00:06:14,075 There is hope. There's lots of hope. We have the capacity to 121 00:06:14,075 --> 00:06:17,385 address everything from our reduction in fossil fuels, our 122 00:06:17,385 --> 00:06:21,434 reduction in dependence on meat and dairy in our diet, you know, 123 00:06:21,515 --> 00:06:23,714 we can build better houses for people to live in that are 124 00:06:23,714 --> 00:06:26,704 better insulated and serve wildlife as well as people. 125 00:06:27,019 --> 00:06:30,399 You know, we can reinstate habitats in, in pretty short 126 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:32,730 order. I mean, you're, you're at Wicken, you've seen the great 127 00:06:32,730 --> 00:06:36,049 Fen project and how much that's achieved in a relatively short 128 00:06:36,049 --> 00:06:39,640 space of time. We can do it. If you build it they will come. 129 00:06:39,850 --> 00:06:41,410 We've got to get building. 130 00:06:42,140 --> 00:06:44,869 AJAY TEGALA: Because it doesn't take long. No, you just make a 131 00:06:44,869 --> 00:06:46,660 few positive steps in the right direction. 132 00:06:46,869 --> 00:06:49,029 CHRIS PACKHAM: Yeah, and we learned so quickly. I mean, look 133 00:06:49,029 --> 00:06:52,190 at Wicken, you know, block up a few ditches, do some planting 134 00:06:52,190 --> 00:06:56,869 here, bring in some, you know, grazing, herbivores, shape 135 00:06:56,869 --> 00:07:00,260 public access. I mean, there's a lot of work being done there. 136 00:07:00,269 --> 00:07:03,179 That's not underestimate, you know, how much toil and trouble 137 00:07:03,179 --> 00:07:05,910 the staff and volunteers have gone to to achieve it. We're not 138 00:07:05,910 --> 00:07:06,790 diminishing that. 139 00:07:07,529 --> 00:07:12,420 It's fantastic. The vision is fantastic as well. 140 00:07:24,510 --> 00:07:27,019 AJAY TEGALA: The great thing about all these organizations 141 00:07:27,019 --> 00:07:31,040 like the RSPB, the BTO, is the amount of youth involvement 142 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:32,149 there is now as well. 143 00:07:32,399 --> 00:07:35,880 And for me, I'm really uplifted by, I mean, for example, there's 144 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,600 an 11 year old near me who's just done a fenathlon raising 145 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:43,000 over 4 grand for the RSPB, the Wildlife Trusts, and the 146 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,239 National Trust. And seeing the articulate and passionate voices 147 00:07:47,239 --> 00:07:50,959 of youngsters standing out from the crowd, that's really 148 00:07:50,959 --> 00:07:51,679 inspiring for me. 149 00:07:51,804 --> 00:07:54,234 CHRIS PACKHAM: Well, that does give me some hope, although I 150 00:07:54,234 --> 00:07:58,315 would like to see changes in the way that that's, perceived. You 151 00:07:58,315 --> 00:08:01,595 know, I've grown rather tired of people saying we listen to young 152 00:08:01,595 --> 00:08:03,904 people, it's patronising. 153 00:08:04,114 --> 00:08:07,834 What, what we need to do is empower young people. Make them 154 00:08:07,834 --> 00:08:11,515 part of a decision-making process, because young people 155 00:08:11,515 --> 00:08:15,434 are clear seeing, clear speaking, and they're not risk 156 00:08:15,434 --> 00:08:18,234 averse, and it's the last of those characteristics which is 157 00:08:18,234 --> 00:08:21,100 the most important. And you know, it's, it's essentially, 158 00:08:21,179 --> 00:08:25,890 you know, I'm 64 years old. I know that my future is now 159 00:08:25,890 --> 00:08:29,940 increasingly limited. But when I look at 6 year olds, the 160 00:08:29,940 --> 00:08:31,220 future's theirs. 161 00:08:31,339 --> 00:08:34,380 One stat that I I love and it and it says a lot about, you 162 00:08:34,380 --> 00:08:37,940 know, the power of youth to achieve great things is that in 163 00:08:37,940 --> 00:08:42,710 1969, long before your time, but I was alive, Neil Armstrong 164 00:08:43,020 --> 00:08:46,869 stepped out of a spacecraft and landed on the moon. And 165 00:08:46,869 --> 00:08:50,390 obviously it was a momentous occasion for humankind. 166 00:08:51,539 --> 00:08:55,380 When when the rocket took off in America at Cape Canaveral, the 167 00:08:55,380 --> 00:09:01,020 average age of the people working that day in that place 168 00:09:01,020 --> 00:09:07,219 was 25. 25. Now why was that? Well, there was a lot of old 169 00:09:07,219 --> 00:09:08,169 expertise there. 170 00:09:08,299 --> 00:09:11,859 If you look at the, if you look at the, you know, the film at 171 00:09:11,859 --> 00:09:15,260 the time. In the central control room, there were a lot of people 172 00:09:15,260 --> 00:09:18,419 who were older than 25, but in all of the rooms that were off 173 00:09:18,419 --> 00:09:20,950 of that, the people that were managing that. The 174 00:09:20,950 --> 00:09:24,669 troubleshooters, they were all young people. They were quick, 175 00:09:24,830 --> 00:09:28,429 they were bright, and they were prepared to light the blue touch 176 00:09:28,429 --> 00:09:33,109 paper under a giant firework that fired 3 incredibly 177 00:09:33,109 --> 00:09:34,799 important astronauts into space. 178 00:09:34,989 --> 00:09:38,630 What the world needs now in terms of environmental care is 179 00:09:38,630 --> 00:09:42,510 young people making decisions about their future. Let's stop 180 00:09:42,510 --> 00:09:46,010 listening to young people. Let's let young people make real 181 00:09:46,010 --> 00:09:47,950 decisions and shape real outcomes. 182 00:09:49,270 --> 00:09:50,210 AJAY TEGALA: Fantastic. 183 00:09:54,869 --> 00:09:58,390 Just before Chris headed back to his busy filming schedule, we 184 00:09:58,390 --> 00:10:02,109 took a moment on a track with trees arching either side to 185 00:10:02,109 --> 00:10:04,380 just listen to the birds that surrounded us. 186 00:10:08,330 --> 00:10:10,770 CHRIS PACKHAM: Well, it's not the best time of day to listen 187 00:10:10,770 --> 00:10:13,009 to birdsong, but nevertheless, there's sort of, there's 188 00:10:13,009 --> 00:10:15,890 Twitterings, isn't there? I can hear a blackbird going 189 00:10:15,890 --> 00:10:16,289 somewhere. 190 00:10:19,909 --> 00:10:27,619 Robins. The one thing I will say is that when I got into birds, I 191 00:10:27,619 --> 00:10:31,020 was 12 years old, so that would have been in the early 70s and 192 00:10:32,299 --> 00:10:35,299 it was just so much noisier. Do you know, I remember going out 193 00:10:35,299 --> 00:10:37,619 and it was like confusing. There were so many birds singing at 194 00:10:37,619 --> 00:10:39,700 the same time. It's like trying to decipher who was doing what 195 00:10:39,700 --> 00:10:40,770 in an orchestra. 196 00:10:41,859 --> 00:10:45,179 And I think that one of the problems we have is that we take 197 00:10:45,179 --> 00:10:49,039 these things for granted, you know, all I can say to All of 198 00:10:49,039 --> 00:10:52,239 you youngsters out there, all of you youngsters, is don't take 199 00:10:52,239 --> 00:10:55,039 any of this for granted, you know, suck up every moment, 200 00:10:55,159 --> 00:10:58,239 listen to every song, watch every moon rise, you know, every 201 00:10:58,239 --> 00:11:01,760 time you see a butterfly, get on your knees, get down and look at 202 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:02,119 it. 203 00:11:13,830 --> 00:11:16,270 AJAY TEGALA: My conversation with Chris was just as wonderful 204 00:11:16,270 --> 00:11:18,869 as I'd hoped it would be. I was really pleased to hear him talk 205 00:11:18,869 --> 00:11:22,789 about youth empowerment. He made that very clear. And I felt 206 00:11:22,789 --> 00:11:24,989 almost a bit sheepish about talking about some of my own 207 00:11:24,989 --> 00:11:28,190 wildlife experiences next to this nature legend. 208 00:11:28,510 --> 00:11:32,309 But when he really endorsed the work to restore habitats, like 209 00:11:32,309 --> 00:11:34,549 at Wick And Fen, and when he talked about the reserve that 210 00:11:34,549 --> 00:11:37,070 I've worked on and that I love so much and hear him really 211 00:11:37,349 --> 00:11:40,479 champion it, that was such a great feeling. And I, yeah, I 212 00:11:40,989 --> 00:11:43,159 could, I almost had to stop myself from jumping up and down 213 00:11:43,159 --> 00:11:44,010 at that point. 214 00:11:44,469 --> 00:11:48,349 And so, yeah, I felt kind of wiser from my chat with him, but 215 00:11:48,349 --> 00:11:52,549 I felt, yeah, uplifted, there's some tough things that we talked 216 00:11:52,549 --> 00:11:55,669 about, but there's so much positivity that I'm really 217 00:11:55,669 --> 00:11:59,150 focusing on. And yeah, I just feel, I feel better for for 218 00:11:59,150 --> 00:11:59,630 talking to him. 219 00:12:02,650 --> 00:12:06,710 Thanks for listening to this episode of Wild Tales with me, 220 00:12:06,799 --> 00:12:11,039 Ajay Tagala. Video podcasts from the National Trust can be found 221 00:12:11,039 --> 00:12:15,400 on our YouTube channel or on Spotify. While you're there, why 222 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,510 not check out our history show Back When? Or for smaller ears, 223 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,039 Ranger Rae and the Wildlifers. See you next time.