Sam Goodwin, entrepreneur, speaker, author. Thanks for coming in today. I follow St. Lewisin who, you know, took the long route to get all the way back into this seat today. But tell me, tell me what you do, Sam. Yeah, thanks, Shep. Thanks for having me. So today I live in Washington, D .C., but originally from and grew up here in St. Louis, so happy to be back. And for the local listeners, I'll just answer the question right now. I went to Dismet High School, along with my two younger brothers as well. And today, I run my own speaking business, so I speak full -time. I also do coaching on people who want to get into the speaking industry. And that's where my professional time and effort is today. And okay, so you are, you're based out of DC or DC area. And so you speak around, who are you speaking to in general? Yeah, so my primary theme is uncertainty. And my most of my workers with corporate audiences, conferences, conventions, leadership retreats, a range of different groups. And essentially, I was pushed to a point of overwhelming uncertainty, truly life or death. My presentations are narrative driven and include these dramatic elements of my stories, but also weave in and conclude with key principles that I think we can all implement into our own personal, professional, even spiritual lives. So I was pushed to this point of overwhelming uncertainty, but through that I learned some things, some things that have helped me and some things that I think can help all of us. - Yeah, because That's a tough thing to suss out and we deal with it daily whether it's it could be all forms So you talked about overwhelming uncertainty Experience that you had so we can kind of jump into that it which is what are the circumstances that you found yourself in and of being faced with this uncertainty. And you can jump into that anywhere you want, but just to kind of get people to end in mind, which is what what happened? Yeah, so as I mentioned, originally from here in St. Louis, I'm throughout most of my childhood and teenage years, I played competitive hockey, was fortunate to have some success with the sport and went on to play Division one in college at Niagara And when I graduated there in 2012, I had the opportunity to take my first professional job in Singapore. And I originally only planned to be in Singapore for about three months, but I ended up staying for six years. And it was a fantastic-- So basically 23 to 29 or 20, like-- So from 2012 to 2018, those years. And it was a fantastic opportunity, a great way to begin my professional career. I was working for a tech startup business and an NGO, a non -profit that was doing development work around Southeast Asia. And throughout this time, I traveled as much as I could. I was in the heart of Southeast Asia, had a little bit of flexibility. My work schedule had the world's best airport in my backyard and I took advantage of the opportunity to explore as much of the region and beyond as possible. Did that surprise you that, I mean, that you found yourself wanting to do that? I mean, you basically have been going from rink to rink for a bit, got your first job and you're in Singapore. How did you get, where did this bug come from that, you know what, I'm going to start bouncing around and around, was that that surprised you that you found yourself there? Throughout most of my life, as you mentioned, most of my travel was around traveling for hockey or getting in my parents' van and going from St. Louis to Chicago to Detroit, wherever we were going. But when I moved overseas, the perspective changed a little bit. Singapore is such a melting pot. People from all over the world, food from all over the world. And it was just this unrelenting curiosity that really drove me to travel. And I don't know where that came from, but I think it's been there since I was a kid. And that time really gave me the opportunity to jump on that and try to learn and better understand the world. And Singapore, as I mentioned, just its location was this great place to be based in order to experience new places. - I mean, you hadn't had an open weekend and forever. So you're like, what do I do? Like usually I'm playing hockey right now. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And kind of the thing to do for the expats there was to travel to experience the region and have those opportunities. So that's kind of how that that adjusted. And so it wasn't part of, you know, you weren't a - Yeah, it was, so I had just a personal preference when I traveled, I didn't like to repeat places. - Okay. - And so the next weekend, the next holiday, the next opportunity I had, I would just go somewhere different and I put this formula into play for about six years and it was in early 2018 when I realized that I had traveled to about 120 countries in the world. And it was at this point when I remember thinking, well, how many are there? I had always traveled 'cause it was fun and I enjoyed it. But most importantly, I learned from it. Travel was the best education I'd ever had. It was never about ticking boxes or checking places off a list. - So you kind of turned around one day and you're like, "Wow, I've been a lot of places at this point." - Right, and it was always organic. So I answered your question. It was never like from the beginning, "Oh, I'm gonna travel to every country in the world." It was always about learning and better understanding people. But I got to this point, I did a little bit of research and learned that there are 193 fully recognized U U .N. sovereign states. And so I thought to myself, well, maybe I could go to all of them in the competitive athlete in me, like setting goals and working toward achieving them, et cetera. So I started doing some more research, started looking at quite a few different things. I began with a map, my bank account, people who I knew in different places who might be able to help visas that I might need and yeah like I'm not going to be at the Ritz if I do this absolutely absolutely and so ultimately decided that I was gonna give this a shot and I had no idea if I could do it I might fail miserably I didn't know what that would look like but I became committed to working toward achieving something that I thought was extraordinary yeah and so Yeah, it sounds like I mean you put the preparation in to get it and be successful But you didn't kind of overthink it at the same time you're like well I've already come this far and it wasn't it wasn't foolish or anything you're like no This is legitimate. I've come this far. I'm gonna sketch this out. I've been checking out my bank account Let's make this a success. It was a combination of research and sketching things out and and I think the the most important advice that I would give to anyone who wants to travel is research and be prepared. At the same time, a lot of my thought process was just go, just go and start and see what happens. And so it was kind of this balance of managing this research and all the safety concerns that I thought and also just taking action and going. - And so is this something you're communicating to your folks along the way? - Yep, so I feel fortunate to say my parents have always been very supportive. And in fact, I should tell a quick story. When I finished college and first was considering going to Singapore, I remember talking to my father and I said, you know, I was telling him about this. And I wasn't sure, I was a kid kid from the Midwest, I had no, I was like, Asia, this is crazy. I don't even know why I pursued this. This is, I would never move to Singapore, move to Asia. - Yeah. - But then I thought about it a little bit more and started talking to my parents, and I'll never forget my dad said to me, he said, said, Sam, if you go to Singapore and things don't work out, you can always come home. - True. And that was kind of this light bulb in this safety net, which was basically like the foundation of my adulthood. 'Cause I remember thinking to myself, well, the worst thing that happens is I'm right back where I am right now. So, okay, I'm gonna give this a shot. Let's go, let's go. And so there was a little bit of that six years later when I started this, when the style of travel changed a little bit. But I'm just so grateful to my parents, my father, for forgiving me that kind of perspective. - Yeah, and allowing that runway to go-- - Exactly. - Go figure some stuff out, but go do your thing. - I think oftentimes we're in situations where we're unsure there's uncertainty, but if we remember that the worst thing that happens is we're in the same situation when we're in right now, it's not so Yeah, I mean, it's sometimes the worst thing you can do is let the brain get in the way of the reflex arc. Yeah, well said, exactly. You know, just throw the ball to first and overthink it. Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, so you're in Singapore, you've been there, you're traveling all over the place and you're thinking, hey, I'm kind of on a tear here. Maybe I'll try and do all of them. And you discover there's 193 UN -recognized countries. That's countries. So now you've got a short list, you know, sort of. So how do you set out on this? Yeah, so at that point, my style of travel changed a little bit. And that's because the goal had temporarily changed. And I don't necessarily recommend the style of that I was doing in, in that sort of home stretch of this journey, um, you know, maybe wasn't spending as much time as I would in a certain place or moving a little bit faster, which, which is, is, is fine because the goal was different. Um, but it, uh, that was essentially how I started. I just, I said, I'm going to, I'm just going to go start. What do you pack for something like that? I packed a North Face backpack and whatever I could fit in there. That's what I took. Okay. That was the constraint that was the constraint and and and and I left and I went and it felt crazy and irresponsible I was 28 or 29 years old shouldn't I be doing Things that are more, you know, there's all these societal parameters and started thinking started thinking right But I also had this deal with myself. I said I'm gonna I'm going to travel to the rest of these places. I'm going to get these experiences, perspectives. And then I'm going to go back to my career and focused on that. And that was the deal that I made with myself, but it was also what I wanted. I didn't want to just kind of roam around forever or aimlessly. And there's nothing wrong with that. It just wasn't for me. I said, I'm going to do this. I estimate it's going to to take about a year and then I'm gonna get back to my career. So I'm gonna take this kind of gap year, a decade too late, so to speak. But that's what I cared about. That's what I wanted to do. And so I just said yes and I went. - Did it feel like a non -option to you? - Yes, because I knew that if I didn't do it, I would always wonder how it was. And I feared regret a lot more than I feared failure. - God, that sounds familiar. I know that feeling on one hand. - Absolutely, as an entrepreneur. - Yeah, it's like, you know, just go do it. Don't be a sissy here. Just go do it, and so you had to walk in, tell the boss, "Peace, I'm out of here for a year." - Sure, and I had been working for this company. There was kind of some uncertainty with the business as there are with so many startups. And I'd been there for six years and it was just kind of timed for the next chapter. - Okay, so it wasn't, I'll be back in a year. It was like, I'm done here. - It was like, I'm gonna do this and then I'm gonna see how things look, yeah. - Okay, so where was the first stop? Just if you're, we have to go through each stop, but where was the first, I'm outta here - Here I'm going. - Yep, so I actually temporarily relocated some of my things to the UAE to Dubai. I had some friends there, and that was sort of my base for the next year. Partly because I had some friends there, but also partly because, more so because of its geographic location. It was closer to a lot of the places that I hadn't and two yet, a lot in Africa and in that region. And so during that time, I sort of based myself in Dubai and I was, I started this business, I was giving skating lessons to the kids of local expats there. - Oh, okay. - And it wasn't really a sustainable business, but it was-- - What was needed? - It was what was needed at the time and it allowed me to travel and have that year there. - So, when I think about this, there were probably, if you created a heat map as well, there were probably like danger zones, safe zones, how am I gonna thread the needle through all of these countries too, so that I get my best result? Because they're known, it's like in any major metro area, there's, if someone's asked me how do I get through whatever town or bike well you're gonna want to stay kind of on this path so you were aware of those kind of hot zones yeah for sure for me safety was always the top priority as it as it as much as it can be on a journey like this I don't think it's cool to be in unsafe situations I don't go looking for trouble and one of the Just significant ways that I found to ensure safety was to follow the path of other travelers and that kind of aligns to your question about knowing where these places are. So I'm just researching and being aware. I spent a lot of time doing that. So the trip's going well. So you start off and you've hit your 121st country and then you're off because you'd hit 120 in 2018 and you started the journey. So start walking us through how the journey's going and how you're refining and getting through it and you know ultimately where you end up for you know a 63 -day period. So over the next year, about a year after I left Singapore, I had traveled traveled to 180 of 193 countries with my North Face backpack and it was, a lot of those were in Africa, I did make it back out to the South Pacific, but I was, you know, I was done with, I had traveled to every country in Asia except for country 181 which was Syria and this is a place that is incredibly culturally religiously significant. It's the cradle of civilization. It's mentioned more than 300 times in the Bible and Damascus is the oldest continuously inhabited capital in the world, a place that I really wanted to visit. It was excited about. At the same time, it's a place that's experiencing arguably the most tragic humanitarian disaster of our lifetime by conservative estimates. Half a million people have died in the conflict. The UN stopped counting at 250 ,000. But one of the most significant things that I learned through my travels is that places that are negatively perceived or that Western media tells us we're not supposed to like, these were the same places where I had many of my best experiences and where my perspectives were most meaningfully impacted. So despite everything that was happening in Syria, I was confident that the same would be the case. The same pattern of kind of what we might think of it was not what it was. Exactly. And on May 25th, 2019, I went to the northeast region of Syria, I went to a town called Kamishli, and just two hours after arriving I was walking through a roundabout on the way to meet up with my guide when all of a sudden a black pickup truck abruptly pulled up next to me, two armed men jumped out of the back seat and instructed me to get inside and Thankfully, they weren't violent, but I didn't have a choice. I was this is happening. This is happening I was scared confused. I had no information or anyone to help it was Desperately trying to understand what was happening and these men were loyal to the the Syrian president at the time, Bashar al -Assad, and they told me that they were skeptical about my travel history and my travel motives, and as we sped down back alleys of the city, the officers in that vehicle, they accused me of espionage, of being an American spy, and collaborating with terrorists, and nothing like this had ever happened to me before. - So you're understanding what's being said to you. - I was understanding words here or there. Their English was pretty broken, but I didn't understand a few. - You surely understood what was occurring, likely, but you did get enough out of them to be like, you know, you're a spy, and we don't like the reasons you're here and where you've been. - They had a lot of, they were very skeptical. - And how, so this truck pulls up to you, you're just kind of getting into town. And it pulls right up next to you. Did you notice that was occurring or you turned and you're like, Oh, shit. Yeah, it all happened very quickly. I was actually on. I talk about this in my book, which I'll mention a lot of the stuff around kind of travel and what happened in Syria. I wrote a book about this that I published with the shed. It's called Saving Sam and a lot of these these details are in there. But I was actually on the phone with my mom. I was on FaceTime with my mom when I was when I was kidnapped. And so she, you know, witnessed some of this. But it all happened very quickly. And it was just right on the street. Yeah, so you're swept away. And based on in you, there's a book saving Sam. So we, you know, the more granular details. I think we should refer people to the book. But in a general sense, you're taken as far as you can tell. How soon do you know that you're in a prisoner -verse kind of situation versus, hey, we're just going to detain you for a couple of minutes, scare the shit out of you, and then get you out of here? I didn't know that. I had no information and all in the early kind of days, all these, you've had just a range of things going through my mind and there's this kind of like, like kidnapping like runway here where it goes from like, from shock to fear to confusion to anger, working through all all of these different emotions. At the same time, I'm thinking that at some point, Ashton Kutcher is gonna swing open the cell door and say, you know, you got punked, right? All these things are just burning off in my brain. So there's a lot of different emotions that are involved with that, but I didn't have any information about what was going on. - All right, so this is, you know, it's kind of like taken, you know, you will be taken sort of moment where like this is just happening. And you're, you're held captive 63 days in total. And without digging too much in, I think that the text is a better place to get all of that. But what can you tell us about that 63 days without getting to into the details of just sort of maybe the mental ebb and flow of that. And it's, you know, there were segments of where you were by yourself for a long time, and then, you know, you were moved and what ultimately led to you getting out of there. Yep. So I was held for, as you mentioned, for nine weeks for 63 days. And my Uh, it, it turned out to be essentially split in half. So the first, the first 27 days I was held in, in solitary confinement. The next month I was held in a more of a, a general population facility with lots of other men. And, um, both of these had their very different variables to them. Um, solitary confinement It is torture. It's a cruel tactic that's been used by captors for centuries. If I told you, Shep, that-- so I often say the most challenging part of the situation was the uncertainty. And what I mean by that is, if I told you that you were going to go and be put in a underground prison cell You were going to be given bread and boiled potatoes and water to eat you were not going to be Physically harmed although you'll hear other people being tortured and on day 27 You're going to be taken out of there and move somewhere else I'm not saying that you would be comfortable But what I am saying is that you would be in a totally different situation knowing the finish line, knowing that you need to get to 27 days and you'll be out. And for me, I didn't have that. And so all of these potential outcomes were based on the information I had, I believed they were all possible. So Was I going to be in that, was I gonna be in that cell forever? I thought that was possible. Was I going to be released in one minute? I thought that was possible. Was I gonna be released in a week? Were they going to open the door and shoot me or torture me or stop feeding me based on the information I had? I believed that all of these potential outcomes were possible and trying to entertain them 24 /7 was emotionally and psychologically exhausting. That's why I say the most challenging part was the uncertainty, and that's what I talk about today. And not to go too far into it, but there were three key things that helped me embrace and manage that uncertainty. And the first was to lean into gratitude, find things to be second was to, was to control and take action, control things that I could control. And the third was to recognize the uncertainty of the of the situation as an opportunity. And it was this framework, these three things in that order that helped me win through this uncertain time. And that's what I what I talk about today. And so I can talk. Yeah, - I'd like to hear more about that, but was that on the job training for you? Meaning that had you ever thought about your life in just sort of, hey, be a grateful guy, look for the good stuff, and it was any of that, or it was like, no, okay, yesterday sucked, I gotta start building some structure, some way, somehow. - It was arranged, I found myself, I found strength and put this work together as a result of so many different life experiences and a lot we were talking before this episode about about the skills and traits that are developed through being a competitive athlete and that was something where I found a lot of strength the the mental toughness critical thinking resilience we hear CEOs or business leaders say all the time they'd like to hire athletes and I thought about the coaches that I had had and how they instilled these things into me that helped in this situation. But I leaned on all kinds of things for strength. I leaned on perspectives that I developed from traveling to different corners of the world which provoked gratitude for just the basic food and water I was being given. I leaned on these skills and traits from a life of playing competitive hockey. I leaned on A belief that I had a purpose in life and and a desire to see family and friends again I'm for me. Nothing was more important than my faith, which is a whole other Conversations from a spiritual standpoint. I believe this wasn't the end and there was more so all of these things together Were where I kind of developed this this framework and something that I that I talked about today And so it wasn't something that I had coming in It was just something that it was forced to develop as a result of hitting rock bottom, literally and figuratively. - And do you ever feel like, so I believe in everything you just said in different contexts, of course, but did you ever feel like, "No, I'm just deceiving myself to get through this," and it sort of crumbled your plan? Do you know what I'm saying? - For sure. It was a roller coaster, it didn't work smoothly like that and it took me time to get to that place and it was just an emotional roller coaster every day. So totally agree with that. - Did you lose track of time? - Something that I learned quickly was that maintaining an emotional and psychological connection to the outside was very important, 'cause I had no window, it was all concrete, I had nothing but this small blanket to lay on the concrete floor as a bed. There were two ways that I kept track of time. One was, I had to request to go to the bathroom and I would bang on the door and it would usually let me. And the bathroom was just-- - That seems like an odd courtesy. - Yeah, know. Yeah. So the the bathroom was just this small hole in the concrete floor a few steps outside the cell door. But from that hole, I could look up and see this small window to the outside. Wow. So I started trying to time my bathroom requests with when I thought there was a change from day to night, so that I could confirm. And the other thing that I did was I started to I the inside of the cell wall and I carved a calendar into the cell wall and I would cross off days when I would go to sleep and that became super important to maintain this connection to the outside and I guess I'll just also quickly mention since I'm in St. Louis today as I mentioned I grew up playing hockey here my whole life and this was in the summer of 2019 and as the local listeners will likely remember in the summer of 2019 the Blues won the Stanley Cup and this all we didn't see it coming did it may not have seen it coming but these things overlapped so that that overlapped with with my situation and so I missed all of that. But one of the things that I that I did early on was actually on my calendar. I mentioned I would mark the days when I knew the the blues were playing and and it's it's I have to kind of preface by saying like I was in a situation where I frankly did not care about a hockey team. I mean this was it was so far down the priority list. I was much more concerned about whether I was going to die and probably in a pretty gruesome way. And how is my family and what's gonna happen? What's happening to these people next to me who are being tortured, all these things. So in the grand scheme of things, hockey and the blues were way down the priority list, but there was some strength that was found in using that as a way to connect with the outside world. So I found strength emotionally in that connection during that time. You were probably kind of like dreaming up plays that might be happening at that moment. 100 % and psychologically anything I could do to take my brain outside of the cell was incredibly important. Wow, there's so a lot of metaphor that can be applied here. One question I'm thinking is, - Do you have any sense of the person who's in the place next to you or next to you? Like, how long they've been there? - I never saw another inmate in that facility. - You didn't. - However, it was not soundproof, so I would hear some things happening, but I never saw another inmate or learn their stories. - Yeah, and that's probably, you spine shivering types of things. But how did you get sprung out of this place? I mean, I literally can't imagine it is the uncertainty. That's the maximum uncertainty, right? What you're discussing. And I guess one day the doors opened. Yeah, so I was moved from solitary confinement to for after 27 days and moved to another facility for a month. And it was a general population with lots of other men. And that was unquestionably an upgrade from solitary confinement, but also had its own kind of challenges with just lack of privacy and lots of different personalities and a range of things. And grateful to say everybody there was the other inmates were incredibly kind to me. And that's a whole other conversation about hospitality other conversation about hospitality. So you're like the general population sort of concept? That's what I was in for that second month. And just a quick story, could talk a lot about this, but about two weeks into that second month, one of the other inmates came to me. I went to him, I was talking to him, and I said, hey, everybody here, meaning the other inmates were being so nice to me and I said it was just a little bit hard to know what to expect in a place like this and I'll never forget he said to me he said he said Sam in Syria all the good people are here in prison because all the bad people are outside putting us in here and So it gets to a larger geopolitical concept around the regime and authoritarian leadership and all that. But - That's remarkable, isn't it? It is a remarkable thing to hear, very sobering and a bit of a paradox, but I've traveled every country in the world and some of the best hospitality I've experienced anywhere has been across the Middle East, every country, and I'm confident that if I wouldn't have had this experience, this situation that I would have had a fantastic experience in Syria as I did everywhere else in the region. And so this instance was a reminder of that. So to get back to your question, it was on day 63, which I didn't know was going on, but I was long story short, my release had been granted as a result of the Lebanese internal security. Lebanese officials had mediated my release on my behalf and my family had actually connected with them from here in the U .S. and I was driven out of Damascus to Beirut, the capital city of Lebanon and When I arrived there, I went into the office of Lebanon's internal security, and in addition to dozens of government and military intelligence officials and journalists, when I walked into the office, so also my parents were there, culminating this moment that was just indescribably emotional and one that many people thought would never happen. And - A breath. - Less than knock the wind out of you. - Absolutely, it was a breathtaking display of God answering prayers. - That's remarkable. A lot to uncover there, but the book is saving Sam. And so I'm gonna assume it can be found in the normal channels. And as I said before, I wanted to hear this first hand, and I'm going to be following this shortly with that. So let's talk about the book for a second. How did you get to that? I'm going to understand it's an experience, but it's not without pain. Was it driven? Was it motivated primarily by-- I've just got to kind of get this thing out of here, not into here. Was it a therapy sort of thing that got you there? - Yeah, you're right. It was a combination of a few things. So one was, I found that sharing the story was therapeutic and that's where I am today with sharing story and message. Also, I believed from kind of a spiritual standpoint, I believe that it was given this for a reason and that by sharing it in a meaningful way, it can be impactful to others. So that was there and then the other dynamic that that came into play pretty quickly was that I realized that That what happened to me was really only half the story because I When I was released one of the most overwhelming things for me was learning about everything that happened on the outside All I was trapped on the inside everything with my family and what they were dealing with and so they have kind of their own their own story With their loved one going missing and on the other side of the world And so the way that the book is set up. It's if it's really two stories So it's a me trapped on the inside and my family on the outside and and so it's sort of Like this Apollo 13 -esque structure where there's this under -resourced entity stuck, and then this group trying to help. The difference is that in Apollo 13 they could talk to each other, but the structure is going to be the same. The way the book set up is it's really two stories. It's definitely two stories. Their minds must have been running wild just like yours. I mean, there was, the communication was, I mean, I think there were some that shook loose eventually, but basically none. Totally. And oftentimes today, if I'm speaking at an event or a conference, sometimes I'll have my parents there, one of my siblings or someone, and when the audience finds out that they're there in the Q &A, they start getting questions. I mean, like the moms in the room, for example, want to ask my mom, well, what did you do? What were you thinking, what were your prayers? Who did you talk to? These different situations. So I often say that sometimes I feel like it should be them who are up on stage giving a presentation. 'Cause what happened to them is arguably as extraordinary. And so it's really two stories. And with any, someone who's taken hostage or kidnapped or wrongfully detained around the world, it's not only the person who it happens to, but it's also their family and their loved ones who are being tortured as well and so it's important to remember that that's going on. Yeah, that I mean as a parent myself you think about that I'm like I mean I would go to lengths to try and get that solved and that was probably very difficult time to say the least. So when you're thinking about the book you've got you have to pull out messaging though. You've got to communicate something ultimately. It sounds like you've settled on the concept of uncertainty and what that means. What are some of the other I guess themes that people can be thinking about as they think through your story, but like how can they apply uncertainties to kill her? But what other maybe are on the cutting room floor almost made it but didn't type of themes. Essentially I don't want to be known for the things that happen to me. I want to be known for the way I've responded to them. Yeah. And I hope that the readers of this book will, I hope that this book will empower readers to adopt a similar mindset and implement into their own personal, professional or spiritual lives and that's where my family and I are with with this story right now what do you think so you you are out speaking and you interface a lot with people who probably share with you maybe something that's troubling them or how am I getting past this or and you look at them how often is there just really not that much of an impediment that's actually in front of them. Well, which is a kind of hard question to answer is you don't want to you want to discredit their feelings in any way, but it's like, no, just push through that. Yeah, I think, you know, we could be we could be held hostage by anything, alcohol, drugs, illness, relationships, finances, injuries. But the way that we embrace and manage those challenges, the actions we take, I think that defines who we become and from where we begin again. And people ask me quite a bit, Sam, if you could go back, would you still travel the way you did or would you do anything differently? And on one hand, I would never want to relive captivity and wouldn't wish that on anybody. But on the other hand, and I think more importantly, I would also never want to give up everything that's come from it. The opportunity to meet some remarkable people, to grow in character and in faith and in understanding really the stuff in life that actually matters. And those two things go together making it kind of a challenging question to answer sometimes. Yeah. Uncertainty. In what forms are you seeing that? I mean, you're interfacing on a more corporate, you know, you're talking to corporations, what is that uncertainty look like? What would be sort of, here's an uncertainty, is it about a project, is it about a personal journey? Like what are the uncertainties that you see? - Yeah, I think if we're all, - I think if we're all honest with ourselves, we will say that our personality today, the very essence of our life is a result of the challenges we've faced and the choices we made as a result of those challenges, not necessarily because of the good times that we've had. And I think that can just look different for anybody in our personal professional lives. And it just looks different depending on the situation. - That's sort of rubbing up against the idea that fear is what motivates us, right? And there are different ways of saying it, but there's, what gets someone to move and gets them to do things is either the fear of what happens if they don't, or the fear of what happens if they do. - For sure. - And that's rising above that and the idea of courage on top of fear, all those seem to be sort of entangled. - Yeah, absolutely. And also the fear of what other people think. - Yeah. - Oftentimes, I say, maybe the best advice I've ever been given is that the quickest way to be unhappy is to live our lives and make decisions based on other people's judgments. It's a horrible idea, but it really is, because if for no other reason the memory is so short, let's say you are inclined to get hung up on what someone might think, don't think they're thinking about it for more than a day, because, I mean, there's so much info flowing around these days, it's like fine, maybe they cared for an afternoon. I had a friend of mine say to me recently said in my 20s I really cared a lot about what other people thought. In my 30s I started to not care as much and then in my 40s I realized that nobody ever thought about me anyways. That's insightful and yeah it's it's one of those things that it can really thwart effort in a big way. So stepping away a little bit, and I asked you this before, just to kind of give you a moment to think about it, but was I believe in sort of these cosmic things and things. So was this always going to happen? You know, I think, I don't think things happen to us, they happen for us. And although Syria doesn't define me, it has become a part of who I am. And a lot of people said that, a lot of people said my life was over, but in truth, it was just getting going. Well, thank you to the people who said it's over, because now you had something to push against, right? It's like, oh, you just, you just you just counted me out, you know, so thank you for doing that. But the idea though, I don't know, I just look at different things and the older I get, the more I'm just like, I'm not going to worry about it as much because however you want to characterize it, there's a plan or there's a something, but I am starting to think things are not as accidental or sort of disorganized as I once thought. Yeah, that makes sense. Certainly, for me, I mean, I view the world through a spiritual lens. I believe this happened for a reason and probably be working for a while to uncover all of those details, but that's something that I think a lot about with this situation. Yeah, they're not always evident in the moment. And How do you deal with wanting there's a desire to be like you can be you can be pissed about this happening Like that's a reasonable thing to be like god, you know damn it Why why so how do you? It's just is it about just being mindful of taking kind of the high road and because it's not I don't think anyone faults you for Being just kind of pissed totally. I was pissed many times throughout this. And I think we're all, I think we're all stronger and more resilient than we can imagine. And uncertain times are exactly what we need in order to grow as, but we have to view it that way. It's a choice to view it that way. Why is uncertainty so painful? I would just, I think, I mean, there's a high stakes situation that you're in, but you have lower stakes situations now in your life. And we all do that, that maybe aren't there. But like, why is it so painful? I would just say, I would say uncertainty is a horrible thing to waste. Okay, tell me about that. Well, as, as an athlete, entrepreneur, traveler, hostage, I believe there's value and opportunity in every experience. And so going back to when I reflect on this situation, I just think when we lean into gratitude, when we control, we can control, when we recognize our challenges and uncertainty as an opportunity, when we adopt this framework, these three points in that order, we win and we grow through uncertain times. - How many people do you encounter that really haven't organized their thinking that way? Meaning that as I get older, I kind of share more of how I bucket my thinking with people because people shared it with me. And you start, so is it your experience that a lot of people haven't been kind of exposed to like, okay, you can have an operating system of how you run the way you think. And it just seems like there are a lot of people who haven't unfortunately have been said, okay, here's a really, really productive way to be thinking about things. How common? Yeah, I would need to think more about that and maybe live a few more years to come up with up with a good answer to that, but I think sharing our thoughts in the buckets of thinking can be really helpful to others. I mean, that's how I've come to a lot of the things that I've thought about today is listening to the way that other people think. But I don't know, I'd have to think a little bit more about that. Yeah, I mean, things aren't as amorphous as they it's I think there's a there's a way to think about something as you know because you've you had to create scaffolding for yourself to get through something and uncertainty to me is is just the indicator of what I need to lean into right meaning like the things that come into my life that the comfort, that's the direction I turn, because I'm like, that's where the leak is. Yeah, I think there's a bit, yeah, speaking of leaning into that, I think there's a big difference between what uncertainty feels like and what's actually happening. Okay. I think it can feel very... Some dissonance there. Right, It can feel very chaotic, very confusing, but what's actually happening is a lot of growth, a lot of development, a lot of new perspectives, a lot of opportunities, but it doesn't feel that way. So there's a big difference in discrepancy between how it feels and what's actually happening. - How might someone evaluate that? - Reflect, and - Yeah, when I look back on my life, all of the times when I've grown the most or seen the biggest changes in my life, it's always been because of uncertainty, because of something that felt really uncomfortable at the time, and it's kind of cliched to say those things, but if somebody hears people say that enough, hopefully they'll take the opportunity to recognize their challenges as that. - Yeah, And the great inconvenience is that happiness typically resides on the other side of that. - Other side of fear or uncertainty or some challenge, exactly. - You know, and that's for me the motivator is I know that when I'm uncomfortable and I'm pushing through something, I think of it more as like I am on a path of getting some happiness. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Which is high. I don't think that's intuitive. No, I don't think it is. And maybe there's a little bit of a hot take. But as an entrepreneur, I often think that there's a correlation between how on track you are to something extraordinary with how much people are saying no and making fun of you, right? - And that's important to recognize. I think there's a direct correlation there oftentimes. - I've said, and it's not a very organized thought, but sometimes-- - Yeah, I didn't say it very organized there. - Well, I've said things like, I know I'm on the right track when everyone's kind of heckling me about it. And now there is an evaluation needs to occur. - For sure, for Right, I really might be walking off into the wilderness, but an indicator of like, are we going in the right direction? And maybe that's an indicator of, you know, this is something that's original, it's current, and it's uncomfortable. And it means change. So you're getting, you know, shut down. Totally agree. I mean, being, what's that saying? It's, Being an entrepreneur means living a few years of your life in a way that most people won't so that you can potentially Live the rest of your life in a way that most people can't Yeah, it yeah, I mean it's a big swing right for sure. So as you think about entrepreneurship Which you are so you are a practitioner as well Give me kind of in your estimation, maybe three keys, and maybe there are 10, but three that you feel good about to the entrepreneurship. Flexibility, creativity, resourcefulness. I think those are the most important three things together to being a successful entrepreneur. Flexibility, creativity, resourcefulness. Split the air between resourcefulness and creativity. Yeah, so in my mind, the resourcefulness is kind of having a network and knowing how to use that network and also is certainly related to creativity, but that's how I would kind of split that with having a network and using the resources that are available to you in knowing to do that. - What do you think are, what might be the kiss of death for an entrepreneur? - Caring too much about what other people think. - Okay, same old stuff, right? - Yeah, I think so. - Which is just getting squelches, everything. Thank you too much. And one thing I would add to the list is, I wasn't explicitly asked what I might add, but I-- - I'll ask you, what would you add? - Patience. - Yeah. - Which is all of those things, which is you've got to be patient enough. But there's, it's a little bit like wage in a war, right? Which is you're not always attacking. There's a lot of time spent not attacking and making sure that when you do, you win. - Yeah. Yes. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And actually we were talking before this and I just, I think that there's, I think a lot about the, I try to ask other people the question too. It's just like, what do you want to do before you die? And what's holding you back from, from pursuing those, those goals or those ambitions? And I think so much of what we've been talking about here for the past five minutes is rooted in that. So when you do, I don't know, is that a rhetorical question to a group? Are you, do you ask people that and do they answer it? Oftentimes, I think of it, I would love to get answers to it, but it ends up being kind of a rhetorical question. Right, or something to a thought to leave them with, type of thing. And do you think that oftentimes the answer in that moment may be like, I don't know? Yeah, I think that, well, I think sometimes that's the answer, but also sometimes people have an answer that they don't want to share because they're scared of it or embarrassed about it or they don't think it's realistic or can't achieve it. - Really? Well, I get that. I mean, I remember when I started Brizos, people were like, "Well, what are you up to?" Like, "Can I just start a company called Brizos?" They're like, "What's a Brizos?" And I always thought of the Beatles. You know, the band, the Beatles is kind of what, because I just thought of like, you know, Paul McCartney and John Lennon and other parents, their buddies are asking, I'm like, so what's your band? Like the Beatles, but it's like B -E -A -T, like the Beatles, and they're like, yeah, good luck. You know, so all things are cool until they're not, are not cool until they are. And they just, you just, you're just like, yeah, we're good, and I'm not gonna worry about it. I think you said all things are cool until they are they're not and so that perception the people around you It's it's just so important to have that thick skin and be focused and disciplined and I would add To what I said patients But it's you said creativity flexibility resourcefulness Correct. I had patients in one thing and Lee Eternal here would tell you something I've said since the very beginning and this is somewhat topical I guess in this or paralleled which is I always think of Andy Dufresne okay from Shawshank Redemption right yeah and read Morgan Freeman's talking about how do you get out of Shawshank State Prisoner whatever it was time and pressure that's how he escaped was time and pressure and I think about that like one little grain at a time and so long as you are still just time and pressuring that you're probably gonna be okay. Yeah and that focus too to know where the time where the pressure as well. Yeah so I guess that's that's tied up with patience perhaps but it's also persistence I guess is what I'm saying and to do to do things takes time. - Yeah, to do great things takes time for sure. - Yeah, it really does. And though the recommendation to an entrepreneur, one of them would be, you know, get organized. And just whatever how long you think that's gonna take you, let's at least put a multiplier on it. Because because, you know, the unmet expectation, it can be very frustrating. You know, you always want to move with purpose and be swift, but, you know, you also don't want to set, draw a line in the sand that you walked by a year ago, and you're like, well, is that a fail? I don't know, what do you think? Yeah, what's your, what are biggest challenge is at Breizo's right now? It's a month -to -month sort of thing, but what we've just concluded was a long -time period of product -to -market fit, which is, as you're addressing a supply chain, a metal supply chain that certainly has evolved over time. And they weren't always using phones and emails. I mean, there was a time before that. So really just getting a product -to -market fit that the market told us it was right, not by them telling it, 'cause they'll always tell you, "Ah, that's great, whatever." But, you know, transactionally speaking, it just speaks for itself when you're seeing buyers month over month you know repeat purchase ratios you know north of 75 percent month over month over month that's that's how we know we've nailed it so we've really wrapped that up and that was that was the big I think one of the major lifts was getting something that people use in adopting to the workflow and then you know you moved on to these next You moved on to the next stages, which is the scaling of it, because when you're addressing, particularly I think supply chain, you're not going to get a lot of chances with that group, because to a degree, they're not sitting there waiting around for it. So when they give you the time of day to actually look at what you've done, you "You gotta nail it," or they're just gonna be like, "I knew it. Sucks." So that was thus far the most difficult thing to do, and then it takes a long time to do that, so that's just a stage of this larger process of getting this in. So there's no one thing that's burning in my head right now of, you know, I, people here tired of hearing me make this, uh, I guess metaphor of when you, when you're doing this, think of like a music mixing board. All right. It was like a 24 channel mixing board and you are constantly balancing the faders on that mixing board, you know, And you've got to get all from the top eventually, but there's a right and a wrong way to keep that balanced. And so you could be leaning into your marketing for a while, and then these faders kind of starting to look like they're falling behind. So you've got to figure out a way that is not reactive to make sure that all of these fronts are moving through So that's that's and I think managing that well Does keep any one thing from burning a hole in your head Makes sense makes sense, but I don't I didn't start there Took some time to get to that point it took some time to get to that point and and the One of my key focuses has always been I don't want to have every day to be like to be an insane project where it's just like ah every single day and so that's part a lot of what I try and do is make sure that we're covering as much ground as we can across all these disciplines in a way that the cadence doesn't cause you know it doesn't cause discord so yeah I mean I mean, what do you typically hear as an answer to that? - Well, no, well, first I was gonna say, congrats on everything that you've done with the Brizos. I mean, we're sitting here in this awesome studio in the office and it's starting a company's really hard and you've done it and it's exciting. So this is awesome. - Well, thank you. - Yeah, of course. - And I'll take a moment to interrupt you quickly, but Certainly not alone in this effort, we've got our team and our investor, like everything that goes into it, and I'm just the one who happens to be sitting at this microphone, but it's a team effort 100 % and getting that team dynamic correct so that nobody sort of makes anyone else boil and keeping it just like eyes on the, eyes on the objective. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Which, which is a difficult thing that that's iterative. Always. Yeah. Yeah. Highly iterative. So what's, what's next for you? What's what's your I know, I don't mean you're starting new business, but what are as you're thinking about, you know, as Uh, what, what is next for you? What are you trying to get done? Yeah. So right now my focus is to continue to use this message for good. And that's, that's where I'm at. And, uh, at SGI, I talk a lot about building a community of high performers. So adopting this framework or, um, some version of it that, that can be helpful. So really I'm So really, my plan is to continue using this story and message to help others. And again, I just never could have expected where life was gonna go, but here we are and that's what I'm focused on. - Well, I wanna thank you for coming in, Sam, and sharing this story. And I know you do tell it, first of all, you tell it in a compelling way. And Again, the book, I want people to know about it, "Saving Sam," and it's a compelling, inspiring story, and I shared with you in a selfish way before we started that reading books similar to-- and it doesn't have to be in extreme circumstance that you were in, but just hardship is inspiring. Because it's like, for me, speaking for me only, when I see something someone else has gotten through it makes you question and sort of reach like can I do that you know so thank you for sharing your story yeah my pleasure think thanks for having me chef I really appreciate it absolutely yep