Cllr Dan Swords podcast
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Salvatore: [00:00:00] welcome to the latest edition of the Concilio Better Places podcast. I'm Salvatore, and I'm joined by managing director Nick Dines. As we sit down with Councilor Dan Swords the leader of Harlow Council. Since taking on the leadership role in May, 2023, councilor Swords has been driving Harlow's economic growth, regeneration, and community development.

His leadership is central to the town's ambitious plans to create a more inclusive, sustainable, and thriving community. Particularly through initiatives like the Harlow Growth Board. We're excited to learn more about his vision for Harlow and how strategic partnerships and bold decisions are shaping its future.

So welcome, Dan. It's a pleasure to be on.

Nick: Oh, brilliant. Thank you very much, Dan, for giving, your time today. So I don't think Salvador did you justice there because becoming leader of a council at just 22. Years of age. Well, it isn't a common career path for 22 year olds. what made you want to become a leader?

Patrick: no, you are quite right. I'm now at the grand age. I'm just about to turn 25. I feel ancient. So do [00:01:00] I. no, it is, it's an interesting question. I started working in Parliament when I was 18. So, quite a different, path to most people that worked in parliament, being from a state school, not going to university and all that sort of stuff

Was quite different to a lot of people. But, yeah, thoroughly enjoyed it. My first job there was with, a chap called Rob Halon, who was Harlow's MP of course. so he introduced me into Harlo and then I never left. but yeah, no, we, we took control of the council in 2021, and I was straight in the cabinet and then deputy leader for a while and then became leader thereafter.

It feels like much longer than two years.

Nick: But what was the spark that made you really want to take on the challenge of becoming a leader?

Patrick: I think, Harlo is an incredible place and I think, you know. Firmly, in my view, it was a place where the council had let the town down.

You know, it's an amazing place of innovation and aspiration and, the sort of council hadn't kept in step with that. Aspirational spirit. and actually what it needed is some serious energy and drive to turn that around. And, you know, I [00:02:00] say to people often at the moment that, as a council, our biggest risk is not like most councils where it's financial or other things.

Actually, our biggest risk is. Not taking the opportunity in front of us. We have the chance to change this place for a generation. and our biggest risk is falling short on that. So it's an amazingly exciting prospect. It's a great honor to do the job and hopefully in a few years time be able to look back and say that we've, done exactly that.

Salvatore: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, you've set out your kinda six missions, For the town, which is transforming the council, rebuilding the town, investing in housing, renewing neighborhoods, securing future of Harlow and protecting the communities of Harlow, you know, how do you prioritize and measure the success across these goals?

'cause they are quite a diverse range.

Patrick: Yeah, they certainly are. I mean, you know, I sort of. set them out as the six great challenges for the council because if we can crack those six things, we are well on the way, as I say, to changing this place for a generation. They're all built, on a [00:03:00] great amount of data and resident feedback and all that sort of stuff that you would expect.

But actually, we have just published our fantastic plan for the year ahead called Building Harlow's Future. and what that is intended to do is, very often. All sorts of different councils up and down the country are extremely busy. And actually if you sit down with the people that lead them and try and draw out from them what it is they're actually trying to deliver, sometimes it isn't as clear as they might think it is.

and actually when you've got a whole organization of hundreds and hundreds of people working every day to deliver that, I think what you need is a, a bit of a run seal plan. It does what it says on the tip. and actually the plan that we've set out, like I say, sets out those six missions with the very clear outcomes we're gonna achieve over the next year.

and obviously over, over the longer term too. you have to accept, first of all that you can't change the world overnight. If you try and do everything well, you end up doing nothing well. it is an, Ambitious plan, but one that I think is deliverable. The other thing is that we've done is quite dramatically changed the council [00:04:00] internally.

We've recruited a restructure and recruited nearly a whole new executive management team. and that is, again, wholly focused. Every single member of staff that we employ focused on delivering those missions because as I say, I think we've let the town down, and we have the chance to change that. We have the chance to realize those ambitions and we would be falling short if we did anything other than.

Nick: I certainly recommend people, hold a document, which you'll have to take my word for. I am holding in my hands at the moment, Harlow building Harlow's future. And, and I message, message from a leader, opens the document, and quite interested, we led the wave of a new town. Revolution. and obviously new towns are very much a focus of the new Yes.

Yeah. The new government. What would you say from your experience as leader philosophy is in Harlow, but taking a longer term view, what, what should the government learn from what was achieved at Harlow?

Patrick: Firstly, I, you know, genuinely welcome the government sort of, view on new towns.

Obviously the new towns commission is, the Newtown task force is shortly to report on its findings. But, the first thing is I think you have to be incredibly ambitious with [00:05:00] them. You know, if you look at the mark one new towns to Basil and Stephen Charlo and the like, B Brane, you know, they were literally whole new towns as opposed to sort of boltons to existing development.

So in Harlo they built over 35,000 new homes. The other thing is I genuinely think it's the only way you can deliver such comprehensive growth. So Harlow was built in eight neighborhoods, all with the, proper services and connectivity and all that sort of stuff.

That obviously is the public's major concern about growth on that scale. but the third part is, it's not a quick thing to do. Harlow in its height was building 2000 homes a year. But that was done through a government funded development corporation, and then paid back over a period of time.

but you know, you don't build a new town in a parliamentary term. Harlow is still growing now. the actual new town took the best part of 20, 30 years to complete. So it does take very considered, Growth. but actually if you look at Harlow pre Newtown, so what we now [00:06:00] refer to as Old Harlow

Which was then the parish of Harlow and everything around it. Harlow was made up of sort of five. Small parishes, there's a fantastic book that I would urge both government and anyone else interested in growth on that sort of scale called Harlow, the story of a new town, it's hot property to get hold of.

You can't get hold of it easily anymore, but what it actually talks of is in great detail, the story of building a new town in that way. And everything from the early engagement with parish councils, about how. the government plan to concrete over their farmers' fields with, council housing estates and other things.

But actually talks through all of the challenges and tribulations of building growth on that scale. and I think there is an awful lot that can be learned from. From that.

Nick: So why do you think Harlow is not spoken of in the same terms of kind of letchworth and welling as new towns?

'cause when you think new towns, they're the ones you think of, but we're looking outside the window of your office Most a slightly d Dr. Day, but we can see plenty of greenfield. Yeah. Yeah. and it's not the mental mind's eye one has of Harlow, when you [00:07:00] think of Newtown. So why do you think that? That narrative's been told about Harlow?

Patrick: Yeah, it's, it's interesting and actually if you speak to most residents, I think what they would tell you is, you know, within their living memory, they grew up in largely less so in more recent times, but largely in a town that was. Brands banking new. Mm-hmm. you know, had amazing industry, amazing jobs, amazing leisure facilities, you know, all of those things.

And actually, like I said, I think the council made a series of bad decisions and let people down over a period of time, and they have, as a result, seen the town decline significantly. Mm-hmm. And of course, when everything is built at the same time, it all ages at the same time. When you build everything from concrete, it ages even more quickly, particularly when it's not maintained.

so it's a very visible. Decline because actually the town and the way it was built, coming back to your earlier question, the master plan of Harlow, Freddie Gibbard had a very strong view that the existing landscape should shape the development as opposed to the other way around.

So if you look out the window, you can see right to our southern border on the [00:08:00] horizon. and largely Barra Tower. All you can see is trees. Actually, between here and there, there's 15,000 houses. his view was that the town should be built into the undulations and the.

Green space. So Harlow, as a district, it's one of the most dense parts of the country. In 10 square miles, we have over 40,000 houses. yet we are also made up of 35% green space. So 35% of the district is green space. No, home is more than 15 meters from green space. So it was an incredible design, well ahead of its time.

I think there were a series of things which sort of went wrong in the nineties and early two thousands, which certainly. didn't support that, rebirth and growth in the way that Welling or Letchworth or other places like that have had.

Salvatore: and you actually just mentioned, sir Frederick Gibbard there. we do have a question, which I'll ask you now instead, How do you balance the ambitious aspiration of transforming Harlow into an economic powerhouse and, small city by 2047 whilst preserving the foundational principles and unique [00:09:00] character that was derived from Sir Frederick Gibbard, and his original Newtown design.

Patrick: Yeah, I mean, there are not many people you'll talk to in Harlow who don't know who. Said Frederick, but as he's taught in literally every school, there's things named after him and everything you can imagine. an incredible, incredible man well ahead of his time. And the only thing that he got wrong is he was of the view that the car wouldn't catch on, in the forties and fifties when he designed the Newtown.

But actually the growth we're seeing now, so fast as Graham place in the country in a decade big than Cambridge, so on and so forth, 50% population growth over just over 10 years, is all built on the same principles. you know, Harlow had 15 minute neighborhoods before they were fashionable, and then fashionable again and and fashionable again.

Yeah. you know, not, not with L TNS or anything like, but you know, the actual concept of it 70 years ago, and. if you look at the, the biggest growth area, so part of the Harlow and Gilson Garden town's, the north of us in Guston mm-hmm. It's 10,000 new homes. you know, when that planned permission was granted, it was the [00:10:00] single biggest planned application in the country.

Over 50% of that is made up of Green Space Open Park, because that's such a crucial, element to the growth. And if you look at sort of a bird's eye view or a map of. You will quite clearly see green wedges breaking up those neighborhoods. All of those principles are exactly the same as the growth we're rolling out now.

I prefer to refer to it as the, rebirth of an iconic new town. because that's exactly what we're doing. We're resuscitating that. Level of growth in a contemporary fashion in the 21st century. But also, given our proximity to London and Cambridge and all those other things, the other challenge is not becoming just a commuter belt and actually becoming a sustainable place.

So when the New town was built, the big premise was it was built based on, based on job and home as opposed to just home. Yeah. and actually I was, I was looking today, bizarrely this morning at, Some stuff from Harlow Urban District Council in the sixties. So just before, the district [00:11:00] councils came into being, and it was talking about the expansion of, so when the new town was originally designated, it was gonna be 60,000 people.

And then they decided in the sixties to expand that to, quite a bit more. And it was talking about the sort of consultation they were having with local people. and you know how outraged people were that their green space behind their home was gonna be built on, despite the fact the home they lived in was green space.

Five years. Yeah. but the central premise. Was actually with this growth, we can bring better jobs and better industry and all those things. So, if you speak to most people who move to the new town, you will find that them or their parents or grandparents will say, I came for the job and the employer gave me the keys to my house.

that is a massive challenge for us because it's, you know, it's almost not that hard to deliver new homes. there's a tried and tested method, but to do it in a way. That you deliver that growth on a sustainable, you, you create a place that people can actually live and work and, spend their leisure [00:12:00] time and all those things.

Nick: Was that one of the driving forces behind the Harlow Growth Board? as you were saying it, a challenge is always with new homes. Certainly we're in commuter distance to London. The skepticism we normally get is, oh, you're just building homes for London just to move out to, and they're gonna commute in and out and we're not gonna be part of the community and only see all weekends if we're lucky.

but that's clearly not what you are seeking to achieve here. I don't think it's what any council leader is seeking to achieve, but it does. It does happen. that's the reality of. Of life. But what, what, what is the Harlow Growth Board? And I see you've recently appointed Darren Rodwell, former leader of barking and daggon, which is significant in some respects.

'cause obviously you are conservative and he's a very high profile, former labor, well still labor member, I guess, but a former labor leader of a council. So I think that raised a couple of eyebrows, purely for that reason. as anything else. Yes,

Patrick: yes. So no, you are, you're absolutely right in terms of, as, as I've just said, building a sort of sustainable place and.

in one sense, you mentioned to Freddie Gibbard. One of his, slightly less famous quotes that occasionally people don't like to refer to, is that Harlow would be an organism which [00:13:00] goes on changing and evolving to meet the needs of the people. And what he meant by that was actually he had designed it for that time.

and you know, it's very well documented. His view was in the future, Harlow would have to grow, particularly to the north, but in all directions because people would have children and grandchildren and so on and so forth. And that's how he could create a sustainable place. Occasionally, people don't like to admit that when they refer to Freddy Gibbard, but that is absolutely true and the growth board is a big part of that.

Because, like I say, it's there to help drive. private sector investment into the town. not just on house building, but also on attracting business and industry and employers to, the town. the big question, of course, is when you talk to most residents of Harlow about this town is gonna grow by 50% over the next 10 years, they have all of the obvious concerns

That anyone, would have in any part of the country. And, you know, what about the roads and the doctors and the schools and, and such like, but the other question, which people find it far too difficult to answer. [00:14:00] He's okay, how's this gonna benefit me? all you are doing is bolting on developments which are gonna be unaffordable, in most people's views for my children or whatever.

and it's not gonna benefit me. It's just gonna cause me problems. and actually, if you look at what Darren did, politics aside, embarking, and I think he has, you know, perfectly encapsulated the phrase he uses inclusive growth. and how to, you know, existing residents of Harlow benefit from this growth.

and that's why we're, we're very happy to, that he's joined us in that mission.

Nick: So what do you see as the kind of industries of the future? Because I don't think many people will have been aware, and I'll be honest, I wasn't until today, but, in harlo fiber rock fix was invented. The recipe for Bailey's, that was a real idea.

Ier, the Post-it note, the rotary lawnmower, the cricket scoreboard, and also the franking machine. Were all invented in the past in Har Yes. But what do you see as the industry of the future? How you trying to position Harlow? Yes.

Patrick: So that, that is an excellent question because of course, you know, they are all good things about the world came from Harlow.

but of [00:15:00] course, it present your question presents exactly the same challenge as. Most residents remember the town center being thriving or what their neighborhood was like. And actually the starting point for most people is, I want it to be like that again.

Well, the fact of the matter is it's not gonna be like that again. Okay. one of the things you will see me talk about in the plan quite a lot is that we are not here to manage the decline. And I believe that really passionately, because actually the answer isn't

It used to be great. but we can't do that again and therefore. You know, we'll just sort of manage as is actually. It's about the rebirth, it's about, yes. That was excellent for that time. but now we're moving into the next chapter of Harlow's History or Future as you might not see it. that means new things.

a particular focus around MedTech, a particular focus around, we are home to a fantastic company called ko. Data has the most powerful supercomputer in the country and AI and all of that sort of stuff. we hope. subject to the spending review on Wednesday, that we will also be the home of the UK Health Security Agency and all of the stuff that [00:16:00] brings.

So actually, we almost extend, you know, we're, I say often, we are not just part of the UK's innovation corridor, which sort of runs from Cambridge Standard to London. Yeah. Actually we're the heart of it. and we ought to be the thumping heart of it with that sort of growth in the industry that we're attracting to meet that.

Salvatore: Hmm, absolutely. And, moving on to the regeneration in the town center, which is quite a big project in good timing. Recently the councils has approved, the acquisition of Terminus House. But beyond that, what's the detailed timeline and integrated vision for the broader town? center regeneration, including things like the Sustainable Transport Hub and, acquisitions of Adams House and Market House.

Yeah. How will these projects integrate to create, as you said, the best town centers in the uk?

Patrick: Yeah, so, you know, again, Most residents will record time and the town center was absolutely thriving. Mm-hmm. You know, had a fantastic market and shops and nightlife and all of that sort of stuff, and pretty much in its entirety that has [00:17:00] disappeared, for a whole, whole host of reasons.

when I was elected in 2021, and it changed administration, I was made the cabinet member for each generation at the time. And I remember sitting down with, Someone and they said to, so what is it you wanna achieve in this role? And I said, well, it's quite simple. I wanna build loads of new homes and I wanna rebuild the town center.

That's what I want to do. And they said, oh, well, that's very sort of admirable. But we tried to build houses and it didn't go very well. we can't do anything in town center 'cause we don't own it. and you can sort of imagine how that, went. but we have gone in the last few years from being the smallest landowner to the biggest landowner because that's vital in terms of control.

if it all stacked up and everything was hunky dory, the council wouldn't be doing that. The market would've done it already.

Exactly.

Patrick: but it hasn't. And if your option is allow something to decline or. Use the general power of competence to make the place better. I know which one I pick.

and actually, you know, we're now the biggest landowner still acquiring things. We've set up our regeneration partnership with Hill Group, Which has, brought a lot of credibility in [00:18:00] terms of. Being able to deliver. lots of councils have great plans, but being able to realize those plans is quite a different thing, which we're now doing.

So, we do have the biggest regeneration program of any district council in the country. but we are just getting on site with, a lot of those schemes. So in the next sort of six to eight weeks, sadly the town center will. In large part what grinds for halt as construction gets well underway, but I think it's the sort of congestion that residents won't be too upset about.

But actually, you know, it is, it's also about, as I said in answer to earlier question, creating the place of the future. So it's not just about having hundreds of shops anymore.

Yeah.

Patrick: It's about having really great shops, but also really great leisure and entertainment and, nightlife and residential.

So, the only other thing that Freddy Gibbard said went wrong, mainly 'cause he didn't have so much part to play in the town center, was there was no residential. So come six o'clock or whatever it was, like a ghost town bar, the sort nightlife, you know, in our master plan the town center becomes almost in its own right, a new neighborhood, [00:19:00] 3000 new homes as part of that.

And that's absolutely crucial. But it is, you know, it is absolutely transformational regeneration. from, you know, large part, if you walked around a lot of the town center now does feel like a no-go zone. most residents see and feel that decline.

Our job now is to reverse that decline, but sort of lead the rebirth of the place. So, yeah, is extremely exciting. and you know, I'm very confident that in two to three years time people will be able to walk around the town center and see something that's dramatically different.

Absolutely

Nick: neat. Fantastic. We're working with Hill Group, in Cambridge. It's this public private partnership does appear to be. The best way for local authorities. I'm not gonna say the only way, but certainly seems to be the delivery model of choice. For local authorities when it comes to delivering, not just social housing, but housing full stop, how are you finding that partnership for private sector?

Yeah, I mean, it's incredible. Private sector

Patrick: partnerships aren't easy. Cambridge is a really good example, the one we looked at to create our own. But, sadly, in my experience in local authorities. people have the view that if you bring in a private sector partner, [00:20:00] the partner takes all the risk.

Gives us the money, And then wonder why it doesn't quite work. Actually, a partnership ought to be you share the risk and you share the reward and you share, costs

What it's built on is that you recognize you both have different expertise, and you harness both sets of expertise To get better outcomes. you don't just suggest, well, we've set up a partnership and therefore that takes care of itself. the most important thing, it's not easy.

Like I say, you have ups and downs and disagreements but you have the power between you to deliver some really great things. that's exactly what we're doing. we set up the partnership and within a few months had our first schemes on site

Being delivered. and there is a heck of a lot more to come to that regard. But also, like I say, it brings the council a great deal of credibility. Yeah. Because when we say This is what we're gonna deliver, you actually have means Of delivering that stuff. It's not, this is what we'd like to do and now we're gonna go out to tender and find a contractor that may or may not want to deliver what we want them to.

so no, it is, it is a fantastic model that I recommend to anyone, but my, note of caution to local authorities would be [00:21:00] that's not the golden bullet to solving your challenges. and a partnership, it has to mean a partnership, not a, you know, one half of the partnership does everything for you.

Nick: Yeah. I guess you are facing the challenge however, that a lot of local authority leaders are facing with respect to unit trees and local government organizational changes. And, I. H where do we start with this one? It's probably not best. We have a debate about whether good, bad unit trees are happening.

Yeah. so how are you kind of preparing for that? Because a lot of the stuff you're talking about is 5, 10, 15 years. But Harlow Council as we sit here today, may not exist in

Patrick: No. In

Nick: two years time. So how is this, well, how are you thinking about tackling this?

Patrick: the first thing to say is obviously Harla as a place will still be here.

Mm-hmm. and all of those things that we are setting in motion. Are still required, you know, whether it's me or someone else, that, that ought to be delivered. but of course, the process LGR and presents huge challenges. Mm-hmm. I think in, in Harlow's case, it, a lot of it depends on. [00:22:00] The sort of configuration of the, you know, what, whatever the unit tree looks like, because there are some proposals which I think could be the best thing that ever happened, Harley.

Mm-hmm. because actually you have so much more, sort of power and leverage in all those things to motor on with your regeneration. there are some models which I think focus far too far less on. Or I, I suppose if I put it a different way, I think the thing I urge people to consider through the LGR process is what is it you actually want the unit trees to deliver?

Do you want them to have the power to change a place and to lead a place? Or do you want soulless sort of bodies that just run and operate as cheaply as possible? 'cause I think they're, they're two different questions. and actually, you know, bigger is not always better. and I think if you spoke to most.

Unit tree, you know, the average size of unit tree in the country now is 280,000. Mm-hmm. Spoke to most London boroughs or you know, other places that have them.

Nick: and the government's looking at 500,000, isn't it? Is that correct?

Patrick: Yeah. With some flexibility. They keep [00:23:00] repeating now that that is not a target, it's a guiding principle.

But I think actually, if you know, the one thing Jim McMan keeps saying is that you need a place to be an anchor. Harlow is lucky in one sense. Like I said, it's geographical location between London Standard, Cambridge, all that sort of stuff, on the M 11 corridor war, et cetera, et cetera.

it has a lot of rural parts around it. my interest is ensuring that Harlow benefits from the neutralization process and all the things we're doing at the moment. particularly about transforming the council is all centered around getting us into a place where we lead the future of local government, not be led by it.

Salvatore: And how, how do you envision this will affect your plans for the regeneration, considering it can be having to share. Services and finances with other Areas, not just focusing on, on Harley. No,

Patrick: indeed. and of course that, presents both opportunities and challenges. Like I said, I think in large part, this will depend on future configuration of them, and leadership of course.

Because actually the one thing [00:24:00] that the unitary or the unitization process can't set you up for is how that entry's gonna be led, you know, thereafter. And actually what will matter far more than any of the work that you know, all the councils around the country are doing at the moment to. Come up with different proposals and what it might look like, that's great, but that only gets you to the point of creating the unitary.

Yeah. Thereafter, it will require good leadership to determine whether a success or not. and, and like I say, ensuring that Harlow's in a position where it's leading, you know, whatever that might look like in the future and its interest so. Are at the heart of that.

Nick: Well, before we, bring us to an end, I just must ask about the statues. I didn't realize Harlow was the capital of statues in the UK is, is how we are branded. We

Patrick: are the world's only sculpture town. There you go. so we have 109 at present, 109 public sculptures. and again, Fred, it was part of Freddie Gibbard.

It's a vision for Harlow. He, he genuinely believed that art and culture should be available open to [00:25:00] everyone. so you will literally walk through, council states in Harlow, that have multimillion pound sculpture sat in the middle of them. Mm-hmm. that, you know, are, part of the way of life in Harlow.

if you look out my window, you would see, some, world famous sculptors like Rodan, Henry Moore. Barbara Hepworth, Elizabeth Spink, all at the heart of that. And actually it's far more than that. part of our town century development, for instance, is a big arts and cultural culture.

Mm-hmm. And that's about putting Harlo on the map as a capital of arts and culture. We have some amazing assets and groups for it. but yeah, it is certainly one of the more, unique elements to Harlow being the world's only sculpture town.

Nick: well, I think following this podcast, the Fred Gibb book is going to be, hoovered Up With Prices, had the Skyrocket on Amazon Marketplace because it can testify, you know, it is a fantastic.

Place. It really is. congratulations on the work that you've been doing.

Salvatore: Thank you very much. No, thank you for joining us. Dan, you've been a fantastic guest. And, thank you to everyone for listening to another episode of The Better Places podcast. we hope [00:26:00] you enjoy it.