This podcast contains the personal stories, opinions and experiences of its speakers, rather than those of Breast Cancer Now. I've finished speaking to Donna Fraser, a former GB athlete. I loved hearing about her athletics career. I'm so fascinated by that world. I loved hearing about the positive mental attitude and how she kind of transferred that from being a sports person to then being a sports person who was diagnosed with breast cancer when she was 36. Donna talked about how when she was diagnosed with breast cancer, her parents, who are from a Caribbean background, didn't want her to talk about her breast cancer in public. Donna considered that, respected her parents' wishes, but ultimately decided that she really did want to share it publicly because she wanted to help other people and she wanted to help specifically people who don't see themselves represented in the breast cancer that we see on TV or in the posters. The other thing that Donna talked about was the acceptance, the difficulty that she had in deciding to have a mastectomy and the huge changes that that would bring to her body which is her number one tool as an athlete. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

Today we're talking to Donna Fraser OBE, a former team GB athlete who has competed in the Olympic Games and won medals in the World Championships and Commonwealth Games. She won the Outstanding Woman in Sport award in 2018 and was the first woman in nearly a hundred years to receive the freedom of the borough of Croydon in South London. Donna was diagnosed with breast cancer at the age of 36 with no family history of the disease. She went on to retire from athletics and is now an ambassador for Breast Cancer Now and the champion of equality, diversity and inclusion. Donna, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Could you start by telling us how you came to be diagnosed with breast cancer?

Yeah, it was an interesting year leading into 2009 going to major competition. I didn't get selected for Beijing Olympics. I went, but I didn't run. So I came back quite devastated, but was really looking forward to the following year because it was the World Championships in 2009. So went into that year with optimism, excitement, and tried different things, different competitions. And then the May of 2009, I found a lump in my breast and I thought I was training pretty hard at the time. And I put it down to that, but athletes are quite body aware and you listen to all the advice, know, keep an eye if you do find a lump, keep an eye on it, et cetera, et cetera, which I did. Eventually I went back to my GP and just said, you know, I've got this lump. And she was brilliant. She said to me, regardless, it needs to be removed, whatever. And of course, knowing my background as well, I was just eager to get back on the track. And I had a lumpectomy and the lump was tested, had a biopsy on that and then... The news that I received when I went back was a little bit of a shock, as you mentioned, no family history whatsoever. It was almost having an out of body experience when you're hearing the news. Is it me? Who are you talking to? So of course I was devastated, but the support I had was just phenomenal, both from the care nurses, my surgeon, et cetera, in terms of what the next steps were and, you know. all these curve balls as athletes, you're used to that, but when it is a disease such as this, you're not sure how to deal with it. But as I said, the support network I had was brilliant. And what were the next steps? What treatment did you have? So the moment a Doctor Pocksen told me the news, I was still floating somewhere. And my care nurse, Julie, took me into the side room and started to outline what the next steps were. And it was to go through radiotherapy. And I was like, that was then I just absolutely broke down. It almost hit home that what I was hearing was about me and in true athlete style, and I always talk about her, my alter ego, Donna, Diane, sorry, I'm Donna. Diane is just the person, that little person on my shoulder that kicks me into shape when the going gets tough. And I literally immediately dried my tears and was like, okay, what do need to do? And I think Julie was a bit taken aback by how positive I was. But then when I went to the Royal Marsden to go through what my plan would be, another curve ball came my way and I was presented with the option of a mastectomy. And that discussion hadn't happened previously. So it was another blow to have to deal with. So I went away, thought about it, spoke to my family, spoke to my friends, spoke to my physio, everyone that knew me. And eventually I made the decision to have a mastectomy. I just didn't want the worry of coming back year after year and wondering whether it had come back. And yes, it was a hard decision to make. Absolutely. You know, I'm a woman and it's part of me, but at the same time. I thought I just need to get rid of it. And that's probably the athlete in me. Let's just cut to the chase. So it was 2009, that December was a turning point for me. It kind of highlighted what a woman means to me, if that makes sense. And going after that surgery was a little bit of a reflection process, you know, when you're trying to recover with the medication and just thinking about what's happened, going through that and trying to stay upbeat and just focus on my athletics, trying to get back if I did. I just thought I need to do more. And that was when I contacted Breast Cancer Now to see what I could do more and support with.

Tell me a bit more about Diane. I'm interested in this. Is Diane... so Diane is the little person on your shoulder. Is Diane inspired by another person, a real person, or is that just a name that you?

No, it's quite bizarre. My parents always said I was quite a determined child. What Donna wants to do, Donna does. But at the same time, I was very shy. I kind of, as growing up, I kind of isolated the two. So Donna's the shy person. Diane's the, come on, show me I can do this. And I guess I tapped into Diane quite a lot during my athletics career when things weren't going so well. Diane would just pop up and say, come on, yes, you can do it. It's the positive, but at the same time, quite wicked. An evil streak.

Okay, so she kind of came in and it's that's just the part of your brain that sort of when you're like maybe keeps you going.

Oh, 100%. Yeah, that positive mindset. Because as I said, I'm quite shy. No one believes that I am quite shy. And on the flip side of it, that confidence, come on, believe in yourself that that often takes over. But my family has seen the the naughtier side of Diane, should I say. When she's angry, she's really angry.

This is all very intriguing.

Oh, it is, isn't it? It's quite scary, actually. Well, you're dealing with Donna now, so it's all good.

Maybe we should have Diane and Donna on the podcast!

Oh, I'm not sure! I'm not sure!

So why do think you were so reluctant to have the mastectomy?

Well, it's something new. As I said, I had not had any experience with any family or friends who had gone through this. I was to-ing and fro-ing. You're just thinking, what if? And a lot of the advice that I was told was not to look on the internet, because everyone's different. And of course you do still. You still do look. But then that decision came when I thought, you know what? I've been through so much as an athlete with injuries upon injury, going through surgeries, let me just deal with this. And regardless of having a mastectomy, I'm still Donna. The bottom line, I'm still me. And unless I share a story like I am now, people would never know. So that's all that matters to me. And it's the best decision I ever made. It was tough. Putting a swimsuit on for the first time was the hardest thing I've ever done. And you think, well, how on earth is that possible when I've run in front of thousands of people in next to nothing and just putting on a bikini was such a big deal. But again, Diane kicked in and said, you know, you're still you. And that's where that confidence and resilience kicks in.

Yeah. And did you have the radiotherapy as well in the end?

I didn't. I didn't go through any radiotherapy at all. And I don't know what that would have felt like. I kind of prepared myself for that, but then having that option presented to me, I didn't need any further treatment.

Yeah, I have heard of people having both radiotherapy and mastectomy, but I think often, if you have the mastectomy, it's no longer necessary to have the radiotherapy on that tissue because the tissue's essentially removed, I think.

Absolutely, yes.

As an athlete, your body is your number one asset when it comes to sport. How did it feel when you, so you had the mastectomy, it's a pretty huge surgery. It changes your body, it changes your ability, it changes your arm movements, it changes so much. How did you find the change from pre-mastectomy you to post-mastectomy?

Yeah, I remember being given a sheet of exercises to do after the surgery. And I was naughty, I must say. That's where Diane kicked in and was like, oh, I can do that. You know, I've been an athlete, I've done so much. So I did push the boundaries a little bit more. I didn't quite follow the sheet. And that's not saying to any listeners not to follow the instructions. That's just me being naughty.

So you did more than the sheet?

I did more than what...

Because a lot of people just ignore the sheet entirely.

No, I did more. I absolutely did more. And I must admit I learned because I was sore afterwards. And I learned the hard way. So I kind of went back to basics and reminded myself that I need to, excuse me, I need to walk before I can run. And I'm not the Olympian right now. I can get to that kind of level, but I just have to listen and take on all the instructions that I've been given and just take my time and let my body recover. Again, was that, that re-shifting that mindset again and thinking, I'm a different person. I just need to take my time. This is, it's major, you know, and I just need to take my time and listen to my body as well. If I was feeling tired, then go and have a rest, not keep going, which I'd normally do. It's just those little things that I had to change how I was and eating better as well, drinking more water, all those kinds of things that... as an athlete, you do drink a lot anyway, but usually when you're competing or you're training, not when you're sat at home. So having a glass of water near me to remind myself to drink those little things that made my recovery a big difference.

We talked a bit about the physical effects and the exercising after it, but in terms of body image, how did that affect you? Yeah, well growing up, I always found that I was uneven anyway, which was really strange, but I kind of got used to it. You learn to adapt as you get older, don't you, and as things go on. When I had the mastectomy done, my implant was matched with the size I was at the time. So I was at the pinnacle of my career, as it were. I was fit, et cetera. But as the years have gone on, the left side has grown and then the implant has obviously stayed the same. So that's something that I have definitely struggled with a little bit. And the options that I was given was either to get an uplift on the other boob, but not to remove the implant. And I was just like, I really don't want to go through that. And as they always say, is, know, if it's not broken, why fix it? So you know what, there's plenty of good bras out there now, which they've improved so much in terms of support for women who have gone through any types of surgery. And you know what? So what?

It's funny, isn't it? Because the longer you survive after a surgery, the more you realise that it changed, your body changes over the time after the surgeries. So I think probably most of these conversations were always talking about how we feel a year after the mastectomy. A lot of people are getting the nipple surgery to add on the nipples because they've had a mastectomy with reconstruction but haven't had the nipples because sometimes there's a delay between those two surgeries. But what we don't always look at is 15 years later, 20 years later, I had, it was only a lumpectomy, well it was a wide local excision which is a little bit bigger than a lumpectomy, but that was in 2012. And they took some, I'm trying to think where they took the... body fat from, they took a lump out of my boob and they took some fat from somewhere else in my body and they put it in there. But over the years that just sort of went a little bit concave. And so two years ago when I then had a big sternum surgery, this plastic surgeon looked at me and was like, I can see you've got a bit of a dip there, would you like me to fill that in? And I was like, oh yes, please, that'd be great. Because I'd never thought to ask anyone because you don't want to just go and have a plastic surgery, do you, for no reason. But anyway, they filled that in and now two years later, I can see it sort of hollowed out again. And I don't mind, but it's those little things that you notice and you think...

And perhaps we don't talk about that enough. It's that long-term after surgery. And yeah, I've kind of just dealt with it. And some people may not be able to just deal with it. And those are the conversations we perhaps need to lengthen out a little bit more and go do a little bit more of a deep dive. Because you're absolutely right when you think, oh, everything's okay, 15 years later, then you just move on. But that's also so important because how you look means so much to a woman, what you wear and how it fits. And, you know, there's so many different looks and sizes and not one size fits all as we know. And I mean, I've gone through it because I've got long legs. trying to find long trousers has been a challenge since a child. But when you're looking for tops, for example, can't wear that now, you know, it's all of that. And that can impact someone really negatively so those kinds of conversations are really important.

But then on the other hand, I'm just grateful to be here.

100%!

And the fact that I am still here 13 years later is like way better than, you know, and have a slightly saggy boob or whatever, but because I'm also getting natural aging and you know, all of those things are great, but I can understand also why some people might want to maybe contact the hospital for some alterations if it's necessary. There's always options and actually you just have to ask because sometimes you don't realise that option is there.

Unless you ask, you don't know and there's no such thing as a silly question.

Mmm. And what about your relationship with your body? Because not just in a way of body image and the way you look, but in the way you feel about your body. Because I post-breast cancer and post-surgery, I feel so grateful to my body that sometimes it's like a really overwhelming feeling. And I think I sign up for a lot of challenges for that community element, but also for the feeling of just feeling so proud of what my body can do. And I think I also push my body more than I perhaps should, more than my body can be pushed.

Sounds like me. Because yeah, because I've got that, I mean, I'm not a sports person like you, but I've got that in me that like, I think I would have loved to have been a sports person, but. Just that gives me so much satisfaction and that is a therapy of sorts to me thinking, yeah, look what my body's come through, look what I can do. Absolutely, and I do remember many moments after the surgery, I'd just stand in front of the mirror and it was a process of acceptance that this is me and you know what, no one can change that and. regardless of what journey I've gone through, I am still me and I can still be Donna Karen Fraser, regardless the happy go lucky and just be, have that gratitude that I am still here to tell the story. And I think you're absolutely right. No matter what, that shouldn't impact what you want to do, but being sensible at the same time. You you mentioned you do all sorts of challenges. But then once you've done it, it's so fulfilling and leading into it. It's something, oh, it's excitement. It's that feel-good factor that you can't buy that. And yes, it was definitely a journey of acceptance, definitely a journey of gratitude and just thinking forward, looking forward, what next, what next. Probably hence why I do so many challenges as well, because it just keeps me going, because I'm no longer an elite athlete. I need something, I crave that excitement and a little bit of a challenge.

And 2009's quite a long time ago.

I know!

How are you now?

I'm fine. It's only when I talk about it, it hits home again. And of course, doing stuff for Breast Cancer Now as well, it hits home again as to why I'm involved. But I'm in good spirits, I'm in good health. I call it the good boob, which is... really strange. And again, I've just gotten used to the new me. It is a long time ago, but at the same time, it feels like it was just yesterday when I talk about it anyway. A lot of my family still forget to this day and they'll nudge me in that side. I'm like, oh, oh, because I've still got my portal in and they're like, oh yeah, forgot, you know. And it is just so funny that, yeah, I am. You know, it just hits home again. But no, I'm in good health. I obviously still have a mammogram every year on the other boob and just pray every time I go in.

Yeah. Well, speaking of your family, you've said that your parents didn't want to go public about your breast cancer when you were first diagnosed. Why do you think that was and how did you make the decision to go public with your news?

Yeah, my parents are from the Caribbean and they're very private and that's the same across most Caribbean cultures and African cultures as well and Asian cultures in fact. And you keep things behind closed doors and it was definitely a challenge telling them that I was going to share my story. But they know when Donna says she's gonna do something, she will do it and explaining the reasons why I wanted to share. It wasn't about me, it was more about helping others and if I could help save lives and encourage people to go and get checked out and be body aware, et cetera, then my job is done. So I feel that's fulfilling to myself. And they were fine with it. They wouldn't have fought me and said, no, you're not doing it. They're not like that. But within certain cultures, it's definitely something you keep to yourself. Don't, as they say, hang out your dirty laundry. I'm like, well, this isn't really dirty laundry. This is reality. This is really important to spread that awareness. And once they understood that, they were fully supportive.

And it's important because without role models, people to look to that are going public about it, people might not realise that you can get breast cancer, that this lump you found could be breast cancer and that it is worth going to get it checked out, right?

Absolutely. And that's the thing. It's one of those things that I said to them, you know, I need to do this. And we were all put on this earth for a purpose. And I felt that that was my purpose, just to share that knowledge that Irrespective of whether how fit you are, it can impact anyone. And me as an Olympian, even more of a reason to spread that message that it's important just to be aware of yourself and your body.

There are statistics that show that a lot of black women are not showing up for their screenings. Why do you think that is?

I mean, I guess it's the reasons that you've just mentioned, but are there any other reasons why that might be? There's a lot of fear. fear of the unknown. And I don't think that's just down to black women. I think it's a lot of women. I've heard so many stories and "I've had my letter. It's there. I'm not going because I don't want to know." And it's like, well, it's better, you know, early detection, it can save lives. So it is frustrating. And I know Breast Cancer Now have done a lot of messaging around that, of going for the mammograms and hopefully I can help with that messaging and telling my story that had I not gone, it could have just gone a lot further down the line. So you're absolutely right, having those role models who have gone through that journey, who look like them and can really identify with, again, the cultural differences and the understanding and the messaging. And it is a private appointment, you know, it's not like you go there and everyone, the flashing lights, oh my gosh, you're coming for a mammogram. It's not about that. And, you know, the process I've gone through, those who are going, supporting you through that mammogram process are so lovely. They're so supportive. And I know one of the questions that I ask, is it painful? And for me, I just think if you can grin and bear that discomfort for a couple of minutes, you can blink of an eye and it's over, then definitely it's worthwhile doing it.

Absolutely. And we all go for, you know, vaccinations, COVID jabs, blood tests, whatever else. There are so many things we put ourselves through that are so much more uncomfortable than going for a mammogram or an ultrasound. Going to the gym!

Exactly, yeah, right?

Absolutely, you know, sweat, tears, everything, but you're there in for at least an hour in the gym. So you can definitely grin and pair a little bit of discomfort.

Absolutely. Yeah. And is there anything you think we can do to encourage more people to go to their screening appointments?

Oh, absolutely. I always say you can never over-communicate. And if you can, well, I know Breast Cancer Now do a lot of it, but just keep sharing that message in every possible form, whether it's in a booklet, whether it's videos, those short clips, whether it's getting on the news, whatever it is, someone will pick something up and utilising the Ambassadors as well who can go through that process with them. And I... Breast Cancer Now have a huge support network as well in terms of sharing knowledge of what that process looks like. And there's enough resources out there as well. So it's just communicate, communicate, communicate.

And communicating with your friends as well. Cause if you've been for your mammogram or you've been for a test and you maybe just mention it to your friends in your WhatsApp chat or when you meet up for a coffee, you know, I've just been for my mammogram. Wasn't painful at all. Or, you know, it only, only took five minutes and I was in and out. That sort of thing is possibly the thing that's gonna encourage someone else to go, isn't it?

Definitely. It's normalising the conversation, isn't it? Because I think there is that stigma that mammograms have and there's that fear factor. But if we can normalise it, this is part of a process. This is something that we need to do as women, and men, of course, just go and have the session. It's over in a blink of an eye.

And you were obviously diagnosed when you were 36 and the screening age is 50 for mammograms in the UK. What sort of awareness-raising work are you doing in those younger women?

So I now work in sport. And for me, think sportswomen like myself, we're absolutely aware of their bodies. If something's not feeling right, then it's not right. So I do a lot of communications within my sport. I was in athletics, now I'm working in cricket. And it's just raising that awareness, just talking more, as I said, normalising the conversation, just as you would around the menstrual cycle and other things. But being breast aware is just so, so important, no matter what age you are, because, you know, the statistics show that it's not an older person's disease, you know, that's proven. So the more we can get that message out into schools, I'm a school governor as well. And I think those conversations should be normalised within schools as well.

And then in terms of ethnically diverse communities when it comes to breast cancer diagnosis, what are the main barriers for those communities?

The main barriers is access, I think again, and lack of knowledge, knowing where to go. As I say, I gave you a great example of, you know, keeping everything inside. If you don't know what to look for, then you don't know where to go. What you don't know, you don't know. So this is why that messaging is just so important to get it out there in all forms and especially into the communities that they use. So whether it's on the radio, the local newspapers, keeping it lighthearted because we don't want to put the fear of God into anyone. But I think those messages, talking about this whole topic by people who look like them is just really important because it will resonate a lot more. So I think that's definitely a barrier. I think it has gotten better. It definitely has gotten better. I mean, there's many ethnically diverse groups out there who are focused on breast cancer and just general wellness in women. But obviously more can be done.

And what about within the actual treatment? Because I know I've heard from so many people over the years that they've been given access to wigs that were only blonde or sleeves for lymphoedema that were only for white-skinned people. Do you do any work within that area of making sure people who are not white skinned are catered for better?

Yeah, I haven't done so much work with that, but I know Breast Cancer Now have done a lot of imagery of different skin tones, which is absolutely brilliant. So I'm always posting that of all skin colours, just posting that on my social channels. Because again, if you can't relate to that information, then you think, well, this is not for me.

Yeah, absolutely. I think the breast cancer imagery used to be a white pair of boobs and now we've got everything. We've got men, you know, we've got trans women, we've got all sorts of different images, body, races, body types, yeah.

It does help. It certainly does help because, you know, if I was to go and Google anything, how many, 15 years ago, it's like, oh, well, that's not for me. That's not going to happen to me. And you will think that; that's how the brain works. Whereas if you saw images that look like you, thinking, oh, actually, maybe I need to look into that a little bit more.

And what do think we can be doing to make breast cancer treatment and diagnosis more accessible for people in ethnically diverse communities?

For me, think it, you know, and I'll keep saying it time and time again, it's utilising the people who look like them, to tell their stories, lived experiences you can't beat. It hits home more. I mean, we could have leaflet upon leaflet out there, which is great, don't get me wrong. But when you hear a lived experience where someone's gone through it, it hits home so much more, it's so powerful. And for me, as I said, it's very much a piece of therapy as well. So me sharing my story, hopefully I've impacted some others who look like me. So that's why I'm involved with Breast Cancer Now as an Ambassador to do just that. But yeah, absolutely, those lived experiences, those stories, and I know Breast Cancer Now have so many case studies on their website, sharing stories, different examples that people can relate to, and that's really important.

So you're now an Ambassador for Breast Cancer Now. What does that work involve?

Well, many things. I promised myself in 2010 while I was recovering that I would get involved with the charity and at least do one challenge a year. And sometimes I think, why did I say that? Because I've done some weird and wacky things from jumping out of a plane from 10,000 feet to doing the marathon a few years ago to doing a walk just at the weekend. For me, it's just... It might seem selfish, but it actually feels that I'm giving something back and fundraising for them in how little I raise. It's definitely going to a good cause. So it's kind of a bit of therapy for me, if that makes sense. You know, being around people who have gone through a similar journey to mine, maybe a lot worse than what I went through and supporting each other. I've done so many different things to giving out awards, to doing talks at their way day. So I'm always saying, you know, let me know if there's anything I can do that's going to help make a difference. And usually I'm up for it. The marathon was the absolute ultimate. Honestly, I don't know how I did it, but I was coerced to say, well, it's for Breast Cancer Now. And I was like, oh, okay, I'll do it. It was actually like that.

Was that the London Marathon?

Yes.

And was that more difficult for you because you're used to running, sprinting short distances?

Yes, honestly. I think I'm traumatised from the whole experience. Yes, definitely. The training, I had to almost rewire my mindset that I'm so used to getting from A to B as quickly as possible rather than getting from A to B as slowly as possible. And that was hard. It was hard on the body, but in all honesty and not because we're talking about it, I had to keep reminding myself why I was doing it. And once you put your fundraising page out there, everyone is expecting you to finish this. And it was painful for me. Mile 8, the soles of my feet had had it. And I was like, I have got such a long way to go. And I'm not even in double figures, but you know, the crowd, when I got to mile 13, seeing that sea of pink in the crowd, I was like, okay, it's a nice reminder why I'm doing it. And I will finish it. I don't care about the time. Usually I would as an athlete. Time means everything. Performance means anything. But I had to... reset that button and say, you know what, it's not about time, it's about completing this for a good cause.

And where did Diane come in?

Diane came in and out several times and I won't share what she said to me on a few occasions because there were some down moments. I think I went through every possible emotion, those 26.2 miles from happiness to being upset, to crying, to wanting to scream. I went through every possible emotion and again, when I look back at it now, it's probably a little bit of therapy as well because doing that is an achievement. But again, going back to why I was doing it, it's the why that constantly reminds me.

And you've just done the Pink Ribbon Walk last weekend as we're recording. Tell us about that. What was the distance? What was it like?

Yeah, I'd done the 10 mile at Chatsworth House a couple of years ago and then... Breast Cancer Now said to me, it's the 20th year anniversary of the Pink Ribbon Walk and would you like to do it? And I'm like, absolutely yes. I mean, this is a great celebrate, 20 years, my goodness, what an achievement. And then it kind of dawned on me, I thought, oh, okay, 20 years, so 20 miles, maybe not as far as a marathon. And it's a walk, you can do this Donna. And I really, I love walking anyway, especially since the pandemic, getting out and about in nature. And just the lead up to that, the excitement was, I'd say a little bit more than the marathon, probably what I was associating it with, but the fact that it was a huge celebration of 20 years and I was walking alone so that I knew it was gonna be a bit tough, but my friends did the 10 mile and they met me at mile 5. So that was nice to cross the line with the people that matter to me.

Did you chat to some people along the way and hear some great stories?

Oh my goodness. I think... Well, I scared one walker actually, because she was in such the zone and anyone I pass, I say, how you doing? Hang in there. We're nearly there. Just keep going. I'd ask the questions, know, who you walking for, et cetera, and then have a little chat. But this one lady, I tapped her on the shoulder and I said, how did you– and oh my gosh! She didn't hear me coming up behind her. She stopped, she's like, oh my goodness, that would just be such an awful news story. Donna gives a walker a heart attack, but we were laughing and I was like, I'm really sorry, but yeah, I did chat a lot.

One of the things that you mentioned a moment ago was that, you you might not raise that much money, which I'm sure you raise lots of money, but it's... not about how much money you, Donna, raise. It's about how much money the whole Pink Ribbon Walk raises or about the entire event and how much it raises. But it's also about the awareness raising. And it's also about that camaraderie. It's also about the therapy element that you mentioned. It's also about the community. And it's also about you as a person who is well known, who people look up to, who people see however many years on. thriving and looking well. There are so many different elements that you have to factor into you being there, you know.

No, you're absolutely right. Of course, that's the competitiveness in me. I want to raise as much money as I possibly can, but you're absolutely right in terms of that messaging, being able to do the warmup for the 20 milers as well, just being part of that, the start of their journey was just overwhelming. I mean, I do that kind of thing all the time, but. It means so much more when I'm doing it for Breast Cancer Now and seeing them go through the line and having the conversations, just hearing the different stories. People who had just been diagnosed, people who've lost family members. I mean, the rollercoaster of emotions through those 20 miles was just, you couldn't write it, but we all inspired each other. And that's what was just great about the event. And of course the sun was shining as well, which really helps. And the fantastic outfits where there were tutus and all sorts out there, which makes it fun. What I had to keep in mind, this is not a race. It's absolutely not a competition. We're doing it. You will cross no matter what time you do. And we're doing it for a good reason.

What sport and exercise do you do day to day now?

Well, when I retired and when I recovered, I went back to netball, which was tough. It's not the netball I remember when I was at school. Body contact, really. I used to come back with bruises, battered and bruised. And I thought, no, this is not for me. The change of direction. I'm used to going in one direction. But now I do a lot of walking. I go to the gym. I've had to re-change what I do. And I keep saying I'm going to go back on the track. But if I know, if I go back on the track, I'll want to compete and I don't want to go down that route again. So I'm staying away from the athletics track because I do miss it. It's in me, it's in my blood, but I'm now 52 and I don't think I'd be able to run as quickly as I did. But in my mind, I think I can. That's the downfall. So I do gym, I do circuits. I go abroad every year to the Caribbean to deliver boot camps at a health and wellbeing resort again. That in itself was just mind blowing because so many people, because I have the opportunity to share with the guests my breast cancer story. And the amount of people that I've met over the years since 2015 who have gone through breast cancer and I've gone through the journey with them has just been, I wouldn't have expected it. Those who have gone through it or impacted or went back and made sure they had their mammograms. So again, just sharing my story isn't just about the story, it's about who you're impacting as well.

Yeah. And what would you say to someone who has been going through breast cancer treatment, who's looking to get back into exercise and sport after their treatment or surgery?

So there's a number of things and I'm trying not to steal Nike's slogan: just do it. Yeah, if you've got the urge to do something, start small. Don't go guns blazing because that will absolutely put you off wanting to do any form of exercise again. So start small, baby steps, something that is achievable. And it could be simple as getting a can of beans out and doing some arm curls, just something light and just gradually build up. And again, Breast Cancer Now have so much information now. For me, exercise is a great outlet for that mental health. It's just getting in the outdoors, even if it is in the gym, but I prefer the outdoors. You get in the fresh air, being one with nature, you can't beat it, especially when the weather's good. But if you've got the urge to get out and do something, do something, whatever that something is. Walking, just, if you've got a dog, take the dog out. Find an excuse just to get outside. And it doesn't have to be Olympic level, absolutely not. Just something, light touch, and just build on that gradually.

And what if you've not got the urge?

If you've not got the urge, I think find something you are passionate about. It doesn't have to be exercise. It could be knitting. It could be cooking. It could be listening to your podcasts. It could be anything. Just find something that's positive. I think that's the key thing is finding something that makes you feel good. And everyone's level of feel good will be different. What would be major for us could be something really little to someone else. Do see what I mean? So it really does depend on the individuals. Just find something that you're really passionate about reading. I've just judged a book, a reading competition, women in sport book and my gosh, was it fulfilling? And I thought I'd, oh my gosh, reading, here we go. But again, that was another outlet. And once I'd finished a book, I felt really great about it. So it could be anything. Everyone's different.

Yeah, there's always, yeah, we think about you've got to get back to sport, you've got to get back to exercise after cancer, but actually so many people's mental health can be affected so badly that actually anything that gets you out of just sitting there feeling sad, feeling really down, feeling worrying about your next scan or whatever it is can be really helpful. So yeah, knitting, reading, all of those things. And within those things, who knows one day there might be something that inspires you to go out for that walk or, you know, get in touch with the community, which then helps you to do something more physically as well.

Definitely. And talk. I think talking is a great outlet, no matter whether it's talking about the situation or just something else. What was on TV last night, just talking to another person. I just think that that also helps. Just offloading sometimes helps.

Yeah, absolutely. What do you do to keep monitoring yourself in terms of looking out for the signs and symptoms of secondary breast cancer and being aware of your body in that sense?

I definitely still check. still, TLC, my favorite slogan, Touch, Look, Check. I still do that. I'm not, you know, so naive not to do it just because I've had had breast cancer, anything's possible. And that whole awareness piece really hit home for me that it doesn't discriminate. For me, it's still staying on top of that. Like I said, if it doesn't feel right, it's usually not right. You know yourself better than anybody else and go and get yourself checked out. And I would do exactly the same again.

So you made the decision to retire. How did that decision come about?

Yeah, it was a tough one. When I was diagnosed, I knew I wanted to get to the World and it was going to be tough. But, I didn't tell anyone that I was going through this whole journey, only my parents knew. And I just thought, someone upstairs telling me something that I need to hang up my spikes and focus on me and be well. And it was a tough decision, but when you're presented with that kind of news, it's not such a difficult decision to make. So yeah, I hung up my spikes in 2009, but when I was recovering, I thought, oh my goodness, London 2012 is not too far away. And I spoke to my coach, bless his soul, he's passed away now. And I says, I'd like to make a comeback in 2012 because I want to hang up my spikes on my terms, not because of the breast cancer. So 2012, I went to the Olympic trials and that morning when the story broke in the newspaper about my breast cancer.

Because you'd shared it?

I shared it, yeah, I'd shared it to that because no one could understand why is Donna coming back to training? You know, she's finished. Why is she training so hard? And so then that was honestly, my heart just sunk because on the start line, obviously people would have heard the story. I got a standing ovation when they read my name out and I was in bits on the start line. I was thinking, how on earth am I going to get around this 400 meters in one piece? But that in itself was just so beautiful that I could finally finish my athletics career on my terms and just get a standing ovation was just, it just blew me away. I was like, look, I'm breaking down now, just thinking about it. Cause it was just like, oh my gosh, people actually like me. You know, it was just... Yeah, it was really heartfelt. Obviously I didn't qualify because two years out of the sport, I'd gotten older, the body got slower, but I knew it would be a hard ass for me to make the team. But knowing that I'd gone to the Olympic trials to try and qualify in itself sends a message to so many other people who may be going through a breast cancer journey or any kind of tough time that you can always bounce back in some shape or form.

Absolutely. Yeah. And so when you retired, How did that affect you mentally and what did you do to fill your time? I know you had another job as well.

Yes, I did. And that was good. And I've always said to any athlete that always have something on the back burner because you never know what's going to happen. And an athlete's lifespan can be cut short just by walking to the shops and you twist your ankle and that's it, your career is done. Any sportsperson. And I was lucky enough to work with EDF Energy for 18 years alongside my athletics career. And they were hugely supportive through my athletics career, through the breast cancer journey as well. And when I decided to retire, they offered me a full-time role. And I just was so grateful for that because it's hard for athletes once they've focused so much on their sport to transition into the world of work. But having doing that parallel, I was one of the lucky ones that I could transition quite well. So that was my focus. Now I can focus on my business career and that's what's kept me going.

So in terms of mental health, it didn't have a huge, terrible effect on you because you were able to focus on that job.

Yeah, I think there was definitely some down times. Absolutely. I think anyone who's going through some life-changing experiences, you do have those dark moments, but I've always been that person that won't stay in those dark places for too long. And there's always a positive that can get you back into a light place. And that's my personality. And I think that's what I try and give back to people I speak to, that you have to think positively, look forward, don't look back. What's happened, you can't change. Control the controllable, all those kinds of things. And definitely just hearing some of the stories of the people that I've spoken to and they are, well, what you said then really resonated with me. I'm like, oh, did I say that? So hopefully. that I'm helping people along the way. But I think my mental health was in a good place. It could have been a lot worse, absolutely. But my support network was just absolutely fantastic. And I always say that anyone going through a breast cancer journey, though we always often forget the people who are supporting them and how they feel, because they never know what to say to you. They never know what mood you're in or what conversation. And I said, you know what, let's just stop there. Just treat me normally, I'm still Donna, just ask me anything. If you wanna know, if you wanna see my boobs, oh, I'll show you, you know? And they're like, oh, really? You know, so I can think that broke the ice a little bit and they felt more comfortable rather than trying to avoid the conversation. Let's just be open, let's talk about it.

And what was the highlight of your athletics career?

Oh my goodness, I always get asked this question. It's such a tough one. There's a number. The number one has to be Sydney 2000, getting to the Olympic final and being able to train with Cathy Freeman from Australia, who was an absolute icon in our sport. That season was just absolutely amazing. I learned so much about myself and you know, they always say things happen for a reason. And when I look back, learning from her, how she dealt with things, how she dealt with the pressure, probably filtered into what I went through in 2009 that, you know, if you just have that self-belief and self-talk, all of that, things can look a little bit brighter. So 2000 was definitely a highlight in my athletics career. Going to the four Olympic games, another highlight. Being recognised for world athletics, woman of the year. The list is quite long, but I don't think about that. I'm quite a humble person. My parents definitely kept me quite humble and don't step out of line, Donna or Diane. So yeah, from an athletics perspective, Sydney was definitely a highlight in my career.

I'd like to finish with the question we're asking everyone on this podcast, which is Breast Cancer Now's vision is that by 2050, everyone diagnosed with breast cancer will not only live, but live well. What does it mean to you to live well?

Oh, wow. So many things. It's my family. It is being alive. It's being happy. Happiness is just huge. And for me, no one day is the same for me. Yes, you have down times, but the grand scheme of things, just thinking positively. My coach always used to say to me, Donna, if you're ever feeling down, just look in the mirror and just smile, just laugh at yourself. I go, right, whatever. But that so works, the amount of times I've done it. And you just end up laughing at yourself. Cause you start finding, oh, well I've got a dimple there. And you know, you find things. But just that happiness, that laughing is just means so much to me. Living well, eating well, being around good people, positive people. I do not do negativity. So even the news right now, there's so much negative stuff on the news that can get you down. I just turn it off, find something else that's positive and just that keeps me upbeat. But yeah, living well is around family, being happy, eating well, good weather, smiling. What's eating well for you? Eating well is eating what I want. I think that's a difference to being an athlete. I couldn't eat what I wanted. Now I can, but at the same time being mindful, it's in moderation.

And what's your go-to? Because I'm big into my food.

Pizza.

Pizza.

I love pizza. Cheese is my vice. If I don't buy it, then I don't want it. But if it's in the fridge and I see it, it's all over. Just chunks, everything. So yeah, I do love pizza, but I love anything, all types of food.

And where can people find out more about you and your work? I'm on Instagram, @donnalegz or @donnafraserobe, and LinkedIn, that's my Bible because that's where I make most of my connections. People reach out for all sorts, whether it's to do with equity, diversity, inclusion, whether it's about sport, whether it's about breast cancer. And yeah, I just, they're probably fed up with me because I constantly post things about breast cancer and awareness.

Well, I think that's absolutely fantastic. And I think that you should continue as you were, as you're doing because you know, it's important and people, the right people who need to see it will see it. So, Donna, thank you so much.

Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

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