Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Page 94.

My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and I'm here in the private

eye office with Helen Lewis.

Adam McQueen and Ian Hislop.

We're back, it's warm and we'll be talking a bit about that later, but we're gonna

start off, getting in a couple of days ahead of the great big anniversary.

Do you remember where you were when Liz Truss lost her seat?

it's coming up to a year since, That sad day and it's first year report card.

Time for the new Labour, sorry, not new Labour.

You know what I mean?

The increasingly aged Labour government.

Yeah.

Helen, how's it going?

Helen: Not well.

Oh, no.

You asked, actually about, remember.

I remember my husband woke me up to tell me about this truss.

I had fallen into a stupor by that point, and he was very excited about it.

He wanted me to be awake, so I wouldn't.

see that momentous time?

no, it's going really badly.

we're not just at the, in the, in the moment.

We're in the middle of a big welfare rebellion.

and another u-turn by Starmer.

But he has given a series of interviews in which he's admitted it's not going well.

So he said that he regretted the island of stranger's speech.

He didn't read it properly before he delivered it 'cause he was too.

Preoccupied with foreign affairs, there is a feeling that they really stuffed up over

winter fuel allowance and, double stuffed as well in the sense that it was one of

their first big memorable policy changes.

And then they got themselves to a policy where most people in the

polling thought it, the limit should be brought down that fewer middle

class pensioners should get this.

But then they overcorrect it and they're now giving it to quite,

quite a little well off people.

But that then stuffs their argument for welfare cuts.

'cause it's really, it's like you found a, couple of a hundred million

down the back of the sofa for this.

So are things really as tight as they are?

So the current feeling on the welfare cuts is that they're going to, save

billions less and was initially advertised and as yet there is no

word on where that money comes from.

So they're in a situation where everybody in Downing Street

seems to be quite grumpy.

They've already remember got rid of Sue Gray and now the triumph... the victor

of that fight, Morgan McSweeney... now everyone's grumbling about him.

The policies have been turbulent.

The massive majority has not been enough to stave off the welfare

rebellion, and Starmer himself just seems really personally quite battered.

So the other things that was interesting about that Tom Baldwin

interview, his biographer, interviewed him for the observer, was saying

that the reason it's a good choice,

Adam: good choice, simply, it was actually interviewer, just to,

give the full CV though, not just Keir Starmer's official biographer.

But also Ed Milliband's, spin doctor.

Yeah.

This is a man who was absolutely embedded in the Labour Party, was

a fairly extraordinary kind of, set of conflict of interest for a

cover story and observer, I felt,

Helen: yes, put that aside.

But I think what that meant then, was that their interview was unusually

revealing and traditionally the problem with Starmer interviews has

been that it's like interviewing a brick wall and everybody's somebody

two revealing, we're talking about

Adam: giving a report card.

He gave a pretty damning one on himself.

Basically, everything's gone wrong and I'm really sorry about it.

Helen: I dunno how I got, I dunno what

Ian: I was thinking.

But also on your report card.

You don't usually say The dog ate my homework.

you say 'My!

No, I... my homework: pretty good.

It's going well.

To say, 'I was a bit tired, I was a bit...' even if these things are true,

it does feed into a narrative of, I'm-

...misery.

I'm not sure I'm up mis misery it is.

Helen: I think you're right.

Like he said that the Rose Garden speech when initially came in and

went, God, this is all terrible.

They again, they, all that did was depress people.

But then he accounts for, he says the reason that he overreacted about, freebie

gate, and got very defensive about it, was they were criticizing his wife.

Then he had the fire bombing on his home.

Which I think is genuinely, any, anyone would be distressed by that.

And then his, brother Nick again, he tried to protect and be very private

about died of cancer after having kind of him, again, not wanting to speak

publicly about it, but there is this running theme throughout, which is two

things, which is one, he doesn't really like politics, the art of making people

do what you want or convincing them.

And two, he's unable to emotionally articulate his own

story or himself as a character.

In the kind of national narrative, apart from being a bit dry and boring

and a human rights lawyer, it, Ian, tell me, when you are trying to

caricature him and do jokes about him, is it actually quite difficult?

Yes.

Ian: it, is difficult and usually the jokes are about his failure to

spot what other people are saying.

when the joke comes from him not knowing that other people around him don't agree.

Yeah.

With his version of himself.

And that is a problem, but, and you remember when Rishi Cenac

said, don't, go for my wife.

The public didn't care.

People will accept the narrative.

they're not callers, but what they want to say is, why are you making these mistakes?

And if you say, I'm making these mistakes.

'cause life's tough, it's

Helen: tough

Ian: for a lot of other people and tougher.

I don't think they buy it.

Helen: But also because in the case of Starmer and almost every Prime

Minister, they obviously schemed and plotted intensely to get there, right?

This was a job you really, wanted.

So no, we are not that interested in you saying, oh gosh, it's

really quite hard, isn't it?

I always felt like that about Ed Milliand's tenure at top of Labour is

he was terribly martyred by it all.

And it was like, but you've literally torn your family apart, your poor mother trying

to arbitrate between the two brothers.

This is how much he wanted it.

Adam: does seem to be a bit of a pattern with Labour leaders, isn't it?

That they put all of their energies and all of their thought and all of

their kind of strategic thinking into becoming leader and then when they get

there, quite often, don't really know.

I'm a think of Gordon Brown here, who, spent most of his

time as chancellor, 10 years or whatever, that was just desperately

scheming to stick over the top.

And he got there just fumbled it completely and didn't

seem to know what, he,

Andy: wanted to do with it.

by that metric, Boris Johnson was also a brilliant Labour leader, surely?

Yes.

Given the

Ian: rise in immigration and borrowing.

you could argue he was a classic Labour leader,

Helen: but you are right.

Sometimes I criticize Ed Balls and George Osborne on the way they talk

about things on their podcast is like everything's a sort of game.

Yeah.

this is, oh, we, did such a great dividing line on this, and and and then they end

up talking about things that you think, that would've been good if it happened.

So well done for scuttling it.

But the other end of that continuum is, Kier who disdains the idea that

you might ever do anything as grubby as, run a campaign to convince

mps of something that you like.

Ian: But isn't one of the problems that we, traditionally blame the advisors.

So I was reading a lot this week, but it's all MCs, Sweeney's fault.

and before that, it was all Sue graceful.

Maybe, it's not, maybe it's star's fault, I'm just possibly, are we

keen to let people off and then blame the people around them?

Helen: Oh, unbelievably because you don't wanna be disloyal to the

leader who is ultimately the one with the power of patronage, right?

When they're, there's a lot of Labour mps and most of them

won't have government jobs, Yeah.

So there's an incredibly cutthroat atmosphere among them.

So one thing you don't want to do is go Starmer's rubbish.

You end up on Rosie Duffield's trajectory where you just criticize

yourself out and out in tent and you end up as an independent.

And I think there are lots of them who aren't ready to make that step yet.

So having a go at Morgan McSweeney is the sort of acceptable face of

something is wrong in this party, but of course, king Starmer can fix it.

We still believe in him.

Adam: And it's always quite useful for a leader as well to have a

kind of worm tongue who they can sacrifice at any, given time.

And I'm thinking of the, and there was a real point of Alistair Campbell is

retiring from Downing Street Post, Hutton inquiry, still stuck around and seemed to

be do, doing the job for most of the time.

Damien McBride was let go, wasn't he?

Partway through, Gordon Brown's tenure.

So it's quite useful to someone you can.

Pete Mandelson, of course, was dumped.

yeah.

Early on, over the mortgages.

So having someone you can put out there as chum to distract the

sharks is quite useful as well, I

Ian: guess.

And we all say that, oh, the toy party is now obsessed by, registered and murdering.

But it could be that just everyone's obsessed by it.

And we've had, Keir Starmer's has been in charge for ages.

Can we have someone else now?

Is not everybody guilty of this failure to, have an attention span more than

about a year for any one leader?

I'm just, I'm concerned.

Helen: No, you, I think there is an interesting point about trying to be

really objective about marking how well the government has done, which

is just really hard in terms of, they put in lots of things that won't.

Payoff for several years, like the attempt to get house building going,

for example, like Angela Rayner calling in projects and approving them.

Those are things that might look very different in five

years time than they do now.

But one thing, I think the thing that you were alluding to is the fact that

Starmer is quite ill suited for being a prime minister in the age of social media.

yeah, he's just doesn't like it.

He doesn't do it.

It's not his, I think it was just that

Adam: he doesn't like doing politics as it is in the modern era.

He might be in the wrong job though,

Andy: right?

you become a, I know he's only been a. An MP since 2015, but there is this.

Supposed rule of politics that whoever can govern the newest medium wins.

And unfortunately, by that metric, that's Nigel Farage, Because ni, I think some

extraordinary state has more followers on TikTok than the other 649 mps combined.

Ian: And that's good.

Is it?

Andy: No, not.

I don't think so.

Ian: I'm joking Andy!

Andy: But it is.

Yeah.

he's...

Helen: But he talks very directly to people, doesn't he?

That's the, point.

He's found a way to bypass media gatekeepers, which is meant that they've

ended up running to catch up with him.

I think that's one of the things that Labour struggles to do is they're

still locked into the Sunday shows and the morning broadcast round.

There is this obsession

Adam: with the newspapers as well.

Yeah.

Which are, I'm afraid, a dying industry in terms of setting the agenda.

But they do, still seem to set the agenda for a lot of.

Newspapers, not magazines.

Magazines are doing brilliantly.

Yeah.

But there is this desperate number and they spent so much time,

there are redundancies available.

So much time courting the sun and the Times and all the Murdoch papers

before the election to no avail really.

It didn't get them anywhere.

They got a really sort of half-hearted last minute, endorsement

from the sun and not even one from the Times, I don't think.

And, they're working in an analog age still that the idea that

it's the somewhat want it, which was never particularly true.

Anyway,

Helen: the other interesting thing I think is the attitude towards reform.

So Starmer says it.

Implicitly in that observer article that yes, he's running against Nigel Farage,

which on the surface looks mad, right?

It's a party with half a dozen mps, but they're leading in

almost every poll these days.

And the other thing he says, which I don't think he's done yet, is if

the, reforms arguments are really popular, we have to take them head on.

I would probably like to see a bit more of that because for all that

he's recanted island of strangers.

He says he regrets the, and any idea there was an echo of Enoch

Powell, although they didn't see it.

He also said he regrets what was in the forward to that white paper, which

remember when we picked up on the podcast here, which was that immigration is done

incalculable damage to this country.

But, the problem about that is you can say, oh, I wish I hadn't said

such spicy things, but he's not.

Said anything proactively himself yet that is anti Nigel Farage.

I just, I'm not sure.

What they really need is a couple of absolute attack dogs who will

go personally and hard for Nigel Farage, but have the credibility,

the background, and the.

Aptitude with social media to play in that sphere.

Who have they really got that's got that ferocity?

Adam: Angela Rayner could probably do it, but they're quite scared

of her because she's seen as being the big rival to star, isn't she?

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

so she's not allowed to be any good publicly.

She's allowed out in public.

Is she?

Very much.

Helen: I guess for her it's also, yeah, as you say, it's a question

about how much she wants to associate herself with this project.

That's not really going very well.

Because someone who, is delighting and not going well, maybe that's a

bit over, over the top, but certainly Andy Burnham is handing around the

fringes going, I wouldn't cut welfare.

Just putting it out there.

Yeah.

And then s Khan too, to some extent, that is the problem of having

those big mayors who don't sit in parliament is that they can say,

oh, I

Personally would give everybody

a rabbit

Adam: we've talked a lot about the failure to do anything with messaging.

the messaging that the mps were sent out there to defend these welfare

cuts before the U-turn on them was completely disingenuous anyway.

Because it was trying to, essentially this is all about saving money as

everything is in government at the moment, but it was presented as in this

totally nonsensical way of restricting personal independence payments.

We'll get people back into work.

that doesn't work because personal independence payments aren't related.

They're not an employment, alternative.

They are there to support people with the, mobility equipment or the, care

needs that they have in order to be able to live their life, which an enormous

percentage of people who are on PIP is, does involve actually working.

So the argument didn't even make sense that they were being sent

out to sacrifice themselves.

But

Helen: you are right.

That comes back to following the papers, right?

'cause they halfway wanted a, sun friendly scrounge of Britain.

Too many people are out of work.

They need to know the value of a honest day's graft.

And then they also didn't wanna upset all of the key groups and disability

groups and the, and their own mps and people who've been through that

process and know that it can be really bureaucratic and horrible.

So you are right.

They ended up neither doing one nor the other really.

Ian: But that's true in all of the major U-turns, isn't it?

Yeah.

the U-turn, 'cause they didn't get the message right to start with

saying people like Ian should not be claiming winter fuel benefit old

balls, who can afford it anyway.

Good messaging.

Adam: They didn't do any of that.

Even now, the compromise they've come to seems equally nonsensical.

There's a moment we're speaking ahead of the vote, which is gonna be on

Tuesday this week, but the suggestion now is that the restrictions on pip,

are gonna come in for future applicants.

But nothing is gonna change for the people who are on it now.

Yes.

Helen: So if you've got multiple sclerosis, now you're gonna get, help

that people who are diagnosed with multiple sclerosis in 2027 won't get.

Adam: it's, either wrong or it's not wrong, isn't it?

But this

Helen: alludes to these, the salient factor of British politics, and

I guess probably all politics you need to understand, which is that

once you give people entitlements, it's really hard to take them away.

Adam: the Winter Fuel Allowance is spoken about now as if it was part of

Magna Carta or something 90, was it 97?

99? Gordon Brown brought that in.

But once it's there, you can't then rain back on it.

Andy: Isn't there a one-off?

10 pound payment.

That was a Gordon Brown innovation that appears.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's the Christmas 10 pound topup, and it appears in everyone's statement at the

end of the year when you're totting up.

if you're liable for tax or anything, all these other quite normal

looking amounts of money, there's one little tenor in there as well.

And that is the same kind of thing, isn't it?

But the

Helen: winter fuel Lance, you're entirely right.

Adam was brought in at a time when pensioners were

the poorest group in Britain.

They're now the wealthiest group in Britain.

And that's not to say there aren't people within that cohort who are really

challenged, but there are also lots of quite middle class people who are doing

better than working age people who are not getting help with their fuel bills.

Andy: So, what's wrong with the policy as it originally was?

Helen: just bad messaging, bad sell.

No, the cutoff at 11,500 was too low.

Okay.

I think that was the thing and, the polling said that a plurality,

people thought the policy was correct, but they've now changed it

again to make it really quite high.

there's all kinds of weird stuff about the tax system relating to pensions.

They don't pay national insurance, for example.

Like I just, that seems to me to be, people can write it and explain to me

why I'm wrong about that, but I dunno why we treat pinch pension incomes so very

differently from working age incomes.

when the, like the, demographic change has been so stuck and

which is good by the way.

I'm just saying.

It's really good that people live longer and there are a few of them

freezing to death in their homes.

That's great.

But political reality hasn't caught up with it yet, nor has it caught up with

the fact that, particularly since the pandemic, a lot of people, more people

are sick and claiming benefits and there is clearly something, whether or not you.

Think all of those are legitimate or not.

That is just a statistical fact.

So we do have to do something about it.

Ian: Yes.

And if you don't state that, if you don't admit that upfront that this

is the situation and we're trying to do something about it, then people

just assume your motives are wrong.

Yeah, I think it's difficult.

I know some of the press do it to say, Starmer.

What he really wants to do is target poor people and make them poorer.

I'm guessing that isn't true.

Yeah, I would guess that's not his life's work.

but if, you allow that to grab hold as some sort of macho,

position in your, politicing.

Then it will.

I'm worried that Anthony Selden says that K Starmer has started

off worse than Liz Truss.

Andy: It's not the review you want, is it?

So do we have a little list of top tips or recommendations?

Send out Big Ange against.

Big Nij, stop doings.

When you say, I thought

Helen: you were talking about poster Cogley, and I was like,

he's been sacked by Spurs.

Andy, what are you talking about?

But yes.

Okay.

You've

Andy: lost me already

Helen: So ripped de her into some football law that I think the problem is they need

to level with people about how little money we've got and the fact that it's now

a zero sum game between competing groups.

And if they're gonna give winter fuel, Lance, that means

that is coming from somebody.

but they, obviously, they won't do that.

I also, and I've been saying this now for some time, I, can,

I'm gonna keep saying it is.

Just put up income tax, just do it.

I don't, want to, none of us in this room I'm sure are clamoring

to pay more tax, but there are, no ways to, we can't borrow anymore.

Our debt repayments are already pretty crippling.

There's not obvious cuts, or at least not obvious immediate cuts

without some upfront investment.

Like I'm sure we could cut, the spending on justice in prisons.

But we're gonna have to get through the backlog first.

We could maybe cut some of the spending on asylum, but we're gonna

have to get through the backlog first.

There's lots of sticking plaster solutions all over stuff that we will require

money to, put in first to, to fix them.

And I dunno how you don't do that with just simply more.

Anyway.

Rachel Reeves will come to this conclusion in about September.

I would've thought so.

Yeah.

Ian: You need one of your big hitters to point out that the Reform

version of, tax less spend more.

Doesn't usually work.

Helen: No, I thought his Robin Hood tax idea, this one off fee for non doms,

that then you give it to poor people.

I thought that was really, he's got the opposite problem to, Stan, which

is, that's really smart politically.

I like the idea of saying, let's charge rich people a flat fee and let's get

that directly to the poorest people.

Unfortunately, Dan Nigel, who's a tax expert that I would trust

has just gone, I'm sorry, the.

Some simply don't work like this is, you'll lose a lot of money by doing that.

billions and billions.

It doesn't work.

It's a nice idea.

But you'll see in that the contours of the new Nigel Farage argument,

which is our protected interest groups are gonna get more money.

He's not a dry thatcherite, fiscal conservative anymore.

He is, I think, as you were saying earlier in he's like left

new, left wing, Nigel, right?

He wants to give.

He wants to give the people who might vote reform more money and protect their money.

and he claims that there's an easy cost free way of doing this, but there's not,

Andy: well, at least there's no time in the past where he's claimed

something, where the numbers don't add up and won a lot of people over

Helen: anyway.

Ian: You have to bring it up, don't you?

Yeah.

I think we should point out that during the ad break there's been a coup Yeah.

And a rather dry leader of the podcast has been replaced.

Wow.

By his feisty female deputy.

God,

Helen: that's so true.

The gobby woman has finally taken over.

Andy, I want you to tell me, Andy, why is it so bloody hot and is it.

Is it fossil fuels or is it just the sun?

Andy: Think about it.

it's a combination of volcanoes, sunspot activity.

Nothing to do with fossil fuels at all.

So don't worry about that.

Helen: But genuinely, we're, as we're recording this, it's in the thirties

outside and that is unusual for June?

Or is it, 'cause that was the problem for a long time.

If you remember, every time someone would talk about global warming, someone would

go, it didn't feel very warm, does it?

It's very cold in here.

It's December.

Andy: I had a little look at the Met Office who do keep quite good

records on this sort of thing, This spring, it's been between 1.3 and 1.6

degrees above the long-term average.

That is obviously a weird thing to say when it is sweltering the hot outside,

you think it is not 1.6 degrees warmer.

Actually, when you do that at a global level, what it means in

reality is that bits of the UK are five degrees warmer than normal.

Some bits of the UK as we recall this, are 11 degrees warmer than they normally are.

So the sort of the 1.5 degrees above actually translates to really quite

scorchy temperatures for all of us.

so that's the met.

Yeah.

Helen: And are British homes and buildings particularly badly adapted for this?

I say this to somebody who lives in a house that in about June

transforms into an oven, and doesn't transform back again until September.

Andy: a lot of people are probably rethinking their

conservatories around now.

That is true to.

Say, I don't think the UK is especially badly adapted.

I think traditionally we've had a kind of very normal, pretty

mild climate in both directions.

the reason that we struggle when it snows unexpectedly in winter is that it's only

ever been snowy for a couple of days.

So we've never bothered buying a huge fleet of snowplows

as you might get in Canada.

Same thing is happening now with heat as the climate is warming.

our homes are not really built for this kind of heat, but I don't

think Britain is unusual in having.

Set up its entire society and infrastructure and everything like that

for a particular range of temperatures, which we're now going beyond bits of

Europe are now 42 to 46 degrees Celsius.

Southern Spain is not built for 46 degrees Celsius.

You know that.

Nowhere really is outside places like Saudi Arabia.

Helen: Nowhere is it, India hit 50 at some point in the last

couple of years, didn't it?

Yeah.

And there were all the like lists of stuff that they had to do, the

traffic policemen wearing like sleeves made of ice, to go and like just

trying to keep people who had to work outside cold is almost impossible.

Andy: Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think Ev everywhere is.

Is maladjusted for the temperatures that we're having now is, basically the thing,

Adam: oh, blame grand designs for this.

But the adaptation everyone has been making for the last sort of 30 years,

whenever they do a property, is to replace most of it with glass, isn't it?

enormous glass extensions and things.

So actually, presumably, we, are actually making things worse quite a lot when we're

Andy: sell your shares in.

Glas and buy shares in Blind manufacturers.

I think that's Blinds manufacturers in sun cream are two growth industries,

definitely for the next few decades.

Helen: Am I allowed to buy and install air con in my house or

does that make baby icebergs cry?

Andy: It's all electricity demand, isn't it?

But I think if it's extremely hot.

People need air conditioning.

I think saying that we shouldn't have air conditioning is a bit of an

unusual argument saying you should s swelter through 40 degree heat.

The thing to do really is ensure that the electricity you're powering your

air conditioning with is renewable.

Now you might not be able to install Soler yourself on your own home or

whatever it is, but the idea is that as we install lots more renewable energy,

that it covers all the growth in demand and then starts heating into existing.

Fossil demand.

That's, the idea.

Ian: Is it my imagination Andy, or do I not hear any of this when I, turn

on the television or open a newspaper?

it's lovely.

It's hot is the main sentiment, is not Oh my God.

You what a scorcher.

Yeah.

Helen: Look at these fruity young ladies on Brighton breach, I think

is still a lively growth area.

Andy: It certainly is.

Yeah.

I have been looking through various papers in terms of how they deal with it.

You will get little bits of coverage, especially if there is a heat wave

inferno in Europe that might kill British tourists, that gets coverage.

the, bit at the back of the paper where someone has to write a column

about the weather every day, they will often mention it because these.

CACs know what they're talking about.

Yeah.

but overall, the editorial line, certainly of most papers is it's lovely

and hot of, as we mentioned a lot in this podcast, newspaper readers are

older than average by quite some way.

In fact, the older you get in British population, the more concerned on

average people are about climate change.

You might think it would be younger people who are more concerned given

they're gonna have to live with it for, 50 or 60 years actually.

People who say they're at least fairly concerned.

It's bigger in the over 60 fives, so it feels like newspapers are not really, I

Helen: believe that because I already feel like, I remember summers when

I was young, did not feel like this.

I'm, I, feel like in my lifetime the weather has become more extreme

and if you've lived for twice as long as I have, then you must

be thinking, this is weird now.

Yeah.

This is very

Andy: weird.

Someone said to me recently, oh, these, aren't the calm English summers I remember

from my childhood, they were my age of 37.

that's a very short timescale for things to have got.

Like this.

Helen: And one of the saddest things I think in the American

context, particularly the Atlantic ran peace saying that we've

lost those cool summer evenings.

Like one of the really big things that's hard to adapt to now is the

fact it's not just 30 during the day, but it's 24 during the night.

Yeah.

And that's terrible for people sleeping.

It's terrible for animals.

Andy: it's just, it's terrible for old people.

there was a huge heat wave in Europe in 2003, which I think.

Led to 70,000 excess deaths.

Wow.

So this, the newspapers tend not to run pictures of dogs fainting in the heat

or farmers struggling to plant crops.

But that, is quite,

Helen: but that's, that makes it weirder then, because that's the,

that is the people who buy news.

I, know,

Andy: I know.

It's an, editorial line thing.

And again, most papers have quite decent.

Coverage of the actual news with a couple of really dishonorable exceptions.

are we going to name them The Telegraph and the mail?

yeah.

the Telegraph coverage really is go

Helen: and gimme an example.

Andy: I'd love to, that, let's bring it back to the Arm Magazine private eye.

there was a piece a couple of issues ago pointing out the sheer number of times

the Telegraph has said, yeah, we got exactly all of this climate story wrong.

We're very happy to correct it.

They printed a story saying.

The UK is planning 10 times the number of Soler panels.

It actually is right.

Being out by an order of magnitude is not good when you're a reporter.

they claimed renewables were responsible for the big Spanish blackout.

It was actually due to power plants of all kinds, not

managing their voltage properly.

the all, I have a new one for you if you like.

Yes.

In May they printed a graph from a really embarrassing outfit called

the Renewable Energy Foundation.

They're actually incredibly hostile to renewable energy.

Always standard name yourself after the thing you're trying to destroy.

And that graph, it claimed that 40% of the electricity is renewable

subsidy, of one kind or another.

Obviously, that's not true.

it's between six and 8%.

I feel like even if it were true, I'd be in favor of it, but

the point is.

It's not true.

Yeah.

Really important thing to drive home there.

Only a few days ago we had a headline in the Telegraph.

Heat Waves will Trigger Net Zero Meltdown, which is where all the technologies that

are being installed to try and deal with climate change and take the edge off it.

Actually, they'll all stop working if it gets warm.

They, won't,

Helen: although the Guardian does notoriously have an air cooling system

in its offices, which packs up when it gets above a certain tempera.

Okay.

Which is a bit, I think this is

Ian: what we call anecdotal evidence.

Yeah.

No, I,

Helen: I, I do still think that climate change is real.

why look to you for Andy is, it, is somebody to slightly cheer me up

that we're not all just going to doom to fry like bacon in a frying pan.

Andy: Yeah.

Yeah, I'll have a go.

we know it's gonna get warmer.

Like the amount the world is emitting is about 40 billion tons

a year of carbon dioxide, which is not something any of us can.

No one can really compute that, and until it comes down to a net of zero

that is being emitted, that means either we're emitting nothing or we're

emitting some, but we're using natural zincs or carbon capture to soak up

what we are emitting a net of zero.

Then it stops.

It stops getting worse.

At the moment, obviously emissions are still rising a little bit, so it's

getting worse, a little bit faster.

I suppose.

The good news is that we have solutions for about 75% of emissions at the moment.

The hugest sectors to.

Take fossil fuels out of that, that solutions really do exist

for are electricity, ground transportation, heating and cooling.

Our homes at about half of industrial use.

You can easily do it with renewable, renewably sourced electricity.

So the solutions do exist.

It's now really a matter of politically finding the, the will and the.

the acceleration to roll them out as fast as possible.

There are still a couple that are tricky.

Aviation shipping, no one's invented a plane that can

fly 5,000 miles on batteries.

Ian: carbon capture doesn't yet exist, is it?

Andy: Carbon capture will need to scale up a huge amount.

Larger than a small pothole.

Yeah.

It's, it's going to have to become a much bigger industry than it is.

but I thought these essential technologies isn't

Ian: really

Andy: there.

Is it Only, at the moment it captures a, I don't want it not to be there.

I'm just saying I want to be realistic.

At the moment, it captures a very, small amount of emissions.

if you're holding a tray of glasses, the analogy is, it's much easier.

not to drop the glasses in the first place than to say, I'm going

to invent a terrific dust pan brush if I can, put it that way.

Yeah.

And solutions exist.

It's, but it's not cheery.

No, But the, the cheery bit is, solutions exist for the

overwhelming majority of this stuff.

Helen: And, Ian is our old Sparky, our columnist who looks

at all this sort of stuff.

Is he on the same page?

Ian: not entirely, but that's all right.

but he's very good on the, myth of carbon capture and, the

fact that it would be lovely.

When it's, available to work, but it isn't now.

And it really would be worth considering that, he's an energy specialist and

he tells you, about what's going wrong and what's going the wider point's

about, and I'm particularly interested in selling the message of, he's, he's

very much aware of climate change,

Adam: right?

Ian: No, we are not in that territory.

What I like to see is, there any way.

Of doing anything about this in a way that you can take people with you.

It's your point about Starmer and politics.

It's a lovely idea, that you could be pure in your beliefs about this, but if

no one wants to come with you, how do

Andy: you do it?

there was a consensus on this politically.

Very much I think probably before it started getting to the sharp end of

actually having to do it, whereas now the conservative form have really rode back.

They're now saying, let's not effectively, and let's not try on this.

Which is, I don't know if that message works.

I think the important thing is for it not to seem like it's being

imposed on people, but we had

Ian: a political change in that Cameron was, managed to sell the green

conservative and Boris of all people.

Yeah.

took the public with him, the idea.

Oh, if Boris says the green agenda's good.

maybe it is.

Yeah, maybe that's all right.

And that was lost.

Andy: Just to counter the kind of really bad report card that you

had in the last section, Helen.

The climate and environment stuff is one area where particularly the British

government have been taking a lead and Ed Milliband, ed Milli Band's,

unlike a hero reinvention, but he spent years on this before becoming the

minister at the Department of Energy Security and Net Zero and pretty much.

Every day, every week since the election, there has been an announcement, which

has been broadly welcomed by industry, by green groups, by, by all sorts

of people who are normally really unhappy about all sorts of stuff,

Ian: but not in editorials.

In the editorials, I. Everything is Ed Milliman's fault.

Yes.

And he's about to be sacked permanently, but he never is,

Andy: he?

No, it's, one of the things ki has been really consistent

on is this stuff matters.

It is a big growth opportunity.

you talk about wanting to get to 2% growth.

China is rolling out electric technologies and green technologies,

Soler, EVs, all of this.

The main bureau of the Chinese Communist Party are not woke.

they're doing it because they wanna sell this stuff to the entire world.

Happily, it'll take the edge of climate change, but that's, not

the only reason they're doing it.

That seems like

Adam: quite a big turnaround.

'cause the excuse that people always made was all, there's no point in us

doing anything towards net zero 'cause China's still pumping out all of this.

It surprises me that they do seem to be accelerating the green stuff.

Andy: China still gets a huge amount of its electricity from coal.

They're still unlike almost everywhere else in the world, building coal plants.

But they're also building.

Ginormous amounts of Soler and wind power.

truly unnaturally huge amounts.

And now these days, half the cars in China come with a plug.

10 years ago it was.

A handful of percent.

So the change is very rapid.

And I suppose that's the other positive thing.

In 2012, the UK got 42% of its electricity from burning coal.

We've just shut down our last coal plant.

When these things do change, they can change.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, Labour's entire policy in power has been to, it's a two-pronged thing.

Firstly, they want to clean up the electricity supply.

'cause at the moment we get about a third of electricity from burning gas.

Secondly, they want to.

Change the uses so that everything we use, whether that's heating our homes

with heat pumps, driving around electric cars, comes from that clean electricity.

So Chris Stark, who's the head of the Clean Power Mission, has said, this is not

a mad sprint to 2030 getting clean power.

This is the warmup for a marathon.

We're going to need a lot more power.

We want it to be clean, and cleanly sourced, which seems a much more sellable

approach than we're all going to die.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it is weird reading.

People who you think would be sort of solutions oriented saying,

there's no point in doing anything.

Oh, Trump's got back in.

There's no point in doing anything.

but that's

Helen: because that's a sort of millary tendency, isn't it?

That's the sort of same impulse of people who boast about going

off grid or whatever it might be.

Yeah, like a kind of that, like the Degrowth thing I think is just a,

particular psychology among a certain set of people, but it's not widely shared.

Andy: I would say that Doomers and net zero.

Skeptics are two hands of the same glove.

Hang on.

That's not, I believe that George

Helen: Galloway line is two cheeks of the same R, so there you go.

Yeah.

Andy: Yeah.

they both say, let's not do anything about this.

There's no point.

So there are lots of things, policies that have been announced, things

like new houses or to have Soler power and heat pumps, which will mean

they're, no, they're low or not zero bill houses, but low bill houses.

That feels like the sort of thing you can sell to the electorate.

Oh, my house has

Helen: got Soler panels 'cause it's a new build and that, I'll tell you

what, when all those energy price prices happen, post invasion of

Ukraine, I, yeah, I really felt it.

It was really, good.

Andy: So that I think is the challenge by the next election is to say,

right here are the concrete results.

Helen: The other thing I thought was interesting, we had a report in the

magazine by fluky, which was about the fact that King Charles is, must have keen

on this stuff and therefore rather, said Miller Milliband, which must be cheery.

Fred Milliband.

Yeah.

Andy: It's nice for him to have a friend anywhere this, in this

incredibly hostile environment.

He finds himself.

Himself.

Is that the king or

Ian: Allman?

Helen: That's probably what they talk about.

Yeah.

Maybe they, yeah.

Unfortunately, I think the report said that Ki Star tried to muscle in on this

and was he wasn't allowed to be friends.

He complain about, oh, that's the idea

Adam: of them exchange.

Yes.

my brother's awful as well.

I don't get on with him at all.

Andy: Let's turn to something even more cheerful than a heat pump.

Not possible.

Glastonbury.

Adam, you were there.

I-

Adam: I was there on my sofa watching Pulp and enjoying the Red Arrows going over.

Yeah, no, I, was nowhere near it at all, but the sofa was the place to be

where you watching the livestream now, everyone was expecting the contentious

bit to be kneecap, who no lesser person than the prime minister and the leader

of the opposition had demanded, should not be either put on stage platformed

at Glastonbury or broadcast on the BBC.

So the BBC.

This is of course because one member of the, Irish band, Kneecap,

is facing terrorism charges over holding up a, I believe, a

Hezbollah flag at a recent concert.

That being, of course, a prescribed terrorist organization, no lesser

person than the Prime Minister, and in fact, leader of the opposition as

well, said that Vassey should not be platforming this band and the BBC should

certainly not be broadcasting their set.

So the BBC very carefully decided not to put them out on the live stream.

They were gonna put 'em on a delay.

And have them, broadcast later on, but then a chance to edit

it out, anything terrible.

And while they were getting on with that, the band that were on directly before them

on stage who go by the appalling name of Bob Villain, which is just, I was gonna

say the worst pun in pop, but actually the Beatles take that, don't they?

but pretty awful.

Anyway, Bob, my

Helen: opinion is on the story changed when I found out that both members

of the band Bob Villain, are known as Bobby Villain spelled one with a

y and one with an IE. And I thought, what's, what, are we doing here?

no, no

Andy: inconsistent branding.

I

Helen: know, I don't agree.

Andy: That's the subeditor's objection.

Really?

That's, am I supposed to talk apart?

Adam: Which one?

Which Mr. Villain.

So Bob Villain were meant to play before Kneecap.

They did play before kneecap.

and as part of their set, they chanted, both from the river to the sea, that very

controversial slogan about, what's going on in Israel and Palestine at the moment.

And also death, to the IDF.

Not as has been reported in quote marks on the front of several newspapers.

something, the mail on Sunday and the mail went with it.

Death to Israelis.

They're very specific in what they said.

It was the IDF, which is of course the Israeli Army who are engaged

in a war on several fronts.

At the moment.

When you say this was broadcast... is this on BBC One?

Not on any of the BBC channels that you think of as channels at all.

Okay.

Nor was it clipped and added to the Glastonbury channel on the iPlayer

as an option for you to watch.

This was literally a live stream, which was going out where they

just had cameras trained on.

All the different stages at Glastonbury.

'cause there's 400 b BBC staff or something filming pretty

much everything that goes on.

and this was effectively what used to be called the Red

button, but is now the iPlayer.

It was going out live.

I understand.

This is the equivalent of Radio Four Longwave doing the test

matches pretty much that you Yeah, For our older listeners

who were probably the only people

who can afford to close Glastonbury anyway,

Andy: and Brian Johnston was always talking about, the IDF on that, wasn't he?

Yeah.

Sorry, that's one for much

Helen: older.

Let's, it's a deep cut.

Adam: Interestingly, it's still not available, but the action that was taken.

On Monday, the BBC announced that with hindsight, we should have pulled

the stream during the performance.

And we regret that this did not happen.

But what they did do on the day was to, Immediately say that they wouldn't

put the, a recording of the performance out as a kind of clipped thing on

iPlayer that people could tune into.

I discovered that you cannot see that on the b BBC anyway, where you can

see it, where you can see the chant of death, through the IDF is on the

Daily Telegraph website who've got it running constantly on a loop, which,

which was well saying how, just how disgusting and appalling this is.

Ian: And the organizers themselves apologized immediately and said

it shouldn't have happened.

So it wasn't just the BBC who then immediately took no.

Emily

Adam: Evis, who is now in charge of Glastonbury said it was against all

of the principles and everything that Glastonbury holds dear, which is slightly

disingenuous 'cause this is not something that, Bob Villain, who I must admit, I

was not very aware of before that, but apparently is not something that they,

that is uncharacteristic for them, is they do make political statements like this.

And in fact, those specific chants at various gigs that they've been to.

The BBC also are slightly in trouble, I've discovered in trying

to detach themselves from this.

'cause they have to a certain extent champion Bob Villain.

I had a look, they've done sessions on Radio Six music.

They curated a playlist for, the, for BBC sounds.

They've also been, live on Radio one as well.

So there is, it's not as if they came entirely out of nowhere

except to people like us who maybe, don't follow this kind of music.

there, there, is definitely some trouble ahead still on this one.

For the BBC,

Helen: I just don't know how the BBC can be held responsible for

the fact that rappers have strong political views and that they

will express them in their music.

This is the bit I just don't really understand with this, I don't think,

personally don't think the death of the IDF chant is inherently antisemitic.

I think the bit, when he talked about working for a record company boss and

he said, we've all made compromises.

We've all worked for fucking Zionists.

That's a bit more is that just a code word for Jew?

and this has come up and lots of black artists saying that the record

industry is run by Jews and they just take advantage of black artists.

this is a fairly well known antisemitic drumbeat.

So I'm not going to entirely defend him.

No.

But I also think it's tasteless, but it's legitimate political speech to my mind.

I. And I don't see why the BBC actually should apologize for it.

And

Adam: the people who are most outraged about it are of course the other media

outlets who've been running, a campaign over the last year for absolute free

speech for all, and particularly equating it with the case of Lucy Connolly.

Absolute directly The Telegraph was saying on, on Monday.

In fact, they were saying it was worse.

Lucy Cony, of course, is the other definition

Helen: is the person who tweeted during the riot saying

Set fire to refugee hotels,

Adam: Toby Young, I saw, came up with the extraordinary, Toby Young of the Free

speech, alliance or foundation of the everyone look at Toby Young organization.

Basically, essentially, said at least Lucy Connolly caveated what

she said by adding for all iCare.

Which apparently is the thing that makes a difference.

Now, if you're calling for people to be burned alive, it takes these backsies in.

Yes.

Helen: I just wish people would have these arguments and they'd just say

what they think of the actual speech rather than in reference to some other

speech that they disagree or agree with.

Don't you think the reason to crack down on death the IDF

is as incitement to violence?

So if that's what you think it is and make that case, I don't need to

have a, or you can say this about X, but you can't say it about Y. 'cause

every, otherwise the conversation's just become incredibly circular.

Ian: But I can see.

The point of Glastonbury, originally set up by hippies, it was CND.

Calling for other people's deaths isn't usually their thing.

Peace, love, not death.

Life on the whole is usually it.

And there, there are very few acts where people come on and

say, death to the Red Army.

I haven't heard them.

Andy: so.

Adam is the problem that now all of Glasbury has to be completely compliant

with B, B, C rules about everything, if they're live streaming it, and

that Glasbury is now effectively.

The same as well.

Adam: Bury is effectively a, b, C co-production.

Now, it is as much a TV event as it is Emily Elvis's thing

in some fields in, Somerset.

they are very much involved in it.

They are the main become media sponsor of it.

They may lose that, of course.

They might just say, okay, someone else can do it.

Channel four did it for a few years.

They don't have the same resources that the BBC's got to, plug into it.

it.

The same newspapers who are, busy condemning the BBC for the coverage

of Glastonbury, all leading with ni nice shots of, of, rod Stewart and

Ronnie Wood on stage together as well.

everyone gets quite a lot of content out of the, BBC being there at Glastonbury.

It's really DI mean in practicalities

Ian: and can I just say that whoever was live streaming that.

As soon as Rod hit the first button note, which was very early on at the set,

I think there's a reasonable case for pulling it just to cut away completely.

That's

Helen: it.

I would've done it.

To be honest, the inside, I saw that outfit with the Lacey

blouse and the boot cut jeans.

I thought, who is Rod's stylist these days?

And I also think extraordinary.

Ian: And you can.

So I'm wrong that I'm sailing is a coded message about boats, and

is part of a reform agenda that I do not want to have thrust down.

Helen: I, I, dunno, I just strongly feel there should be latitude for

artists of all descriptions to have really weird and terrible opinions.

Adam: Latitude is a completely different part, isn't it?

Oh, so I knew you were gonna Oh, to move it on from festivals.

This.

Has of course happened in the same week that, another controversy with

the BBC and this particular area, has come to a head, which was, you will

remember the documentary that went out earlier in the year and turned

out to have been narrated by the child of a Hams official, which was a.

Enormous.

however you cut it was an absolutely enormous editorial cock up by, by the bbc.

It really, should not have happened.

As a result of this, they paused the, broadcast of another documentary about

Gaza, which was following doctors who were working in the war zone.

They have now, as of last week, declared that they will not be

broadcasting that one at all.

Not because there are any editorial problems with that.

They've had a good look at that.

But because, and this is the quote from the BBC press office, we have come to the

conclusion that broadcasting this material risks creating a perception of partiality

that would not meet the high standards that the public rightly expect of the BBC.

Now, if we're not gonna broadcast anything, that might create

a perception of partiality.

In a world which has the Daily Mail, the Daily Telegraph, and Rupert Murdoch

in it, they're not gonna be able to broadcast anything at all, are they?

that is, that just seems so extraordinary to me as an excuse.

The documentary actually has now been taken up by Channel four who has said

there are no editorial problems with it whatsoever, and it is going to be

broadcast this week on that channel.

Instead, he reminded me more than anything of, do you remember after

the enormous soul searching reviews that the BBC did after all of the

stuff about Jimmy Savill emerged?

Do you remember who?

The only person who got sacked over that was?

It was Tony Blackburn who wasn't accused of doing anything like Jimmy Haval had

done, but it was because he had given a different recollection of his encounter

with a female fan in, I think the 1960s, to the internal investigation by the BBC.

So he was the one that ended up getting punished for it and then they

had to reach a settlement with him.

He came back on b bbc, on radio two fairly swiftly.

So it does seem to be this thing as well.

if you think of the, the Princess Diana interview, Martin Beshe, and which again

was an absolute failure on so many levels and turned out to be a huge coverup right

at the top level of the BBC, the only person who got sacked over that was a.

Freelance graphic designer who had been asked to mock up some fake documents to

convince Diana to give the interview.

It does just seem that they fire off in all directions, consume themselves

over these things and then, do the wrong thing in the end of it.

So often with the BBC, the

Ian: BBC is under enormous pressure over this, and it, as you say, it

tends to buckle in the wrong direction.

there are marches saying the BBC is violently pro-Israel.

and then the next day there's one saying it's violently anti-Israel.

It certainly can't win and the eye have made this point.

But, there are groups who are very keen to make sure, that, BBC is anti-Israel.

Keeps appearing in the papers and the times.

It had a piece by Danny Cohen, who's a former senior executive at the BBC,

and he runs a research group that is dedicated to finding this stuff out.

So in the Times on today, we have a piece by him saying, there's chance

at Glastonbury about killing Jews.

It's not strictly true.

as we've tried to explain.

And then I look in the rest of the paper.

And there is no mention of the whole weekend in which large numbers of people

died 'cause they were in queues trying to get aid and were shot by the IDF.

Helen: Yeah, I think you're right.

I think we could probably stand to have a little more explanation of

why people might be unhappy with the actions of the IDF in order to explain

why people are doing that chant.

It hasn't come out of, nowhere.

There is some important contextualization.

There

Andy: is the answer for the BB, C, just to keep someone on hand

who can be sacked at any moment.

As a kind of corporation whipping boy, the deputy head to roll.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Adam: I would imagine, I mean we, we are early in this at the moment.

The BBC response only came out this morning.

As we are speaking, I would imagine this one is gonna run and I'd imagine

eventually someone will go, someone probably quite senior in the Glastonbury

coverage, who I'm sure was not monitoring live feed from one of the smaller stages

at the time when that was going out.

I would imagine, just from my knowledge of how these things work practically,

that most of the kind of senior staff are on the big stages and working

out what stuff is going to be.

Cut and looped and put on the iPlayer and used for the actual broadcasts

on BBC one and BBC two, which were covering much and much of the weekend.

It would've been some very, junior people just trying to keep a feed going.

and, probably none of them with the authority to just say, cut the feed.

They've said something controversial, so they will, I mean they, I'm no doubt they

will come up with procedures for this, which will then go across all live events.

But they did take

Helen: it down.

That's the point.

They took it off the highlights and they didn't rebroadcast it.

They moved

Adam: very, quickly.

It's quite difficult to see what.

More they could have done actually on the day.

To me,

Helen: I'm quite impressed that actually all of these papers had anyone in

the office to be able to write this up, given that almost everyone I know

works in journalism was at Glastonbury.

Adam: Well, Katie Hind, who as showcased in our in hack watch in our last edition,

glad to say she personally, I was there at the moment because of course she'd

been sent by the Daily Mail along ready for kneecap to appear a couple of hours

later so she could be raised by whatever they, and luckily she got a bonus.

Story early on, so

Helen: I love that I, there I was ready to be outraged by kneecap.

Like the number of people who would've heard this had, it just

happened organically is about all the people who were there, plus

about a couple of hundred people.

This did not need to be de rebar into the national consciousness for Kia Storm

to have to come out and condemn it.

Adam: And certainly Bob villain in terms of Spotify playlists and

general, acknowledgement by the general populace will be shooting up just as

kneecap did when, when, that whole ferry erupted and, I'm pretty half

of the crowd who were seeing them at Glastonbury and waving the Palestinian

flags on Saturday, might not have even been fans of them six months ago.

Helen: the fear, the fact that they had Rod Stewart headlining as an avowed

reform sporter says this is the most right wing Glastonbury for years Balance

Adam: for you is, yeah,

Helen: and I'm to tie all these stories together.

I'm sad that climate change has robbed us of the mud bath Glastonbury stories.

We haven't had one of those for years.

Yes, it's

Andy: all dust baths now.

Like the sparrows.

Yeah.

I used to

Helen: enjoy watching Kate Moss in some hunter wellies having to wade through

what, like a sort of pig farm, but

Adam: no more.

there are big victims and small, that's the thing.

Would you like to finish off with a very quick pop quiz?

Yes.

Helen: Yes.

No.

Adam: Okay.

Will there be a classical quiz afterwards for me in the increase?

It's alright.

Some of these go back a bit.

Ian, you might be able to get some of these.

Okay.

Question one of whom did the Daily Star Demand kick this Evil

Bastard Act on their front page?

Prodigy.

No, we going a bit earlier than that.

Was it Rod Stewart?

It wasn't Rod Stewart?

no.

The Shaman.

Helen: Oh, good guess.

Was it Ebenezer Good?

They think it's

Adam: about drugs.

it, it was not.

no.

It was Snoop Dogg.

Ah, who in 1994 had been arrested on a, murder charge, which was later dropped.

of all of the careers.

To go from kick this evil bastard out and demanding that he'd

be thrown outta the country to advertising, just eat and appearing

at the Olympics closing ceremony.

You do get the slight feeling that the root from like national terror

to national treasure is a long one, but it does bend towards cozy.

Just eat adverts, doesn't it?

Ian: and do you think the trajectory is the same for everyone?

Will it be kneecap in 20 years time, say.

Have a lovely Cup with us.

Tea.

Tea

Helen: you can use, oh, sniffing it through his little tea.

Cozy in isz.

Balaclava.

Oh, that would

Adam: be good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Selling the balaclava as tea cozy.

That would be fantastic.

it might be because no mart Next issue.

Question two, who record the protest record?

In 1972, after bloody Sunday, give Ireland back to the Irish,

which was so controversial.

It was banned by the BBC and the independent television authority and

accused, the band were accused of raising funds for the IRA at their concerts.

Yeah, we know this one.

This was wings.

It was.

Really

Helen: lovely.

Paul McCarney is cozy.

Paul McCarney.

Adam: Yeah.

Yeah.

The debut single by Wings, and on the political front again.

so US Country Band, Dixie Chicks, now known as the Chicks, in

March, 2003 were re accused of attacking US troops blacklisted

by radio stations across the USA.

They had public crashings held of their CDs where people

driving tractors over and things.

they were called traitors and, dubbed Saddam's Angels.

What did they actually say to, to, earn all this Appium and where did they say it?

Helen: it was definitely, it was anti Iraq war, so they said something like,

I'd really rather do think that George W. Bush should rethink this chaps.

Actually,

Adam: it was pretty much on that level.

Yeah, it was extraordinary.

When you actually go back to innocuous, it was, they said.

Just to say, we do not want this war, we don't want this violence,

and we're ashamed that the president of the United States is from

Texas, where they were from, and it almost destroyed them at the time.

It was absolutely extraordinary.

They said it extraordinary, the Shepherd's Bush empire as well.

So they weren't even in America.

Somehow.

This apparently made it worse.

The US media said to go off to a foreign land.

Yeah.

And say this is even worse.

There you go.

End of pop quiz.

And our ultimate pop picker is of course, Mr. Ian Hislop, a man with a musical plan.

Andy: That Wings knowledge really came into its own.

It did.

Adam: It is taken 53 years, but we got that.

Andy: That's it for this episode of page 94.

We will be back in a Fortnite with another one.

We'll find out what controversy went down at Wimbledon and who

will have had to resign over that.

Can't wait for that.

In the interim, why not go and buy the magazine, which has all sorts of similar

stories and plenty, plenty more besides, it's available on newsstands and it's

available for subscriptions@private.co uk.

it also works as a fan, or if the weather has turned to rain.

As an umbrella.

So thank you to Helen, Ian, and Adam.

Thank you to you for listening.

And thank you to Matt Hill, OFAN, Cordio, as always for producing.

Bye for now.