1
00:00:00,450 --> 00:00:03,150
Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast.

2
00:00:03,690 --> 00:00:06,420
Hello and welcome to
another episode of Page 94.

3
00:00:06,420 --> 00:00:08,610
My name's Andrew Hunter Murray,
and I'm here in the private

4
00:00:08,610 --> 00:00:09,690
eye office with Helen Lewis.

5
00:00:09,690 --> 00:00:11,220
Adam McQueen and Ian Hislop.

6
00:00:11,220 --> 00:00:16,320
We're back, it's warm and we'll be talking
a bit about that later, but we're gonna

7
00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,430
start off, getting in a couple of days
ahead of the great big anniversary.

8
00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,760
Do you remember where you were
when Liz Truss lost her seat?

9
00:00:24,180 --> 00:00:31,544
it's coming up to a year since, That
sad day and it's first year report card.

10
00:00:31,544 --> 00:00:34,335
Time for the new Labour,
sorry, not new Labour.

11
00:00:34,545 --> 00:00:35,295
You know what I mean?

12
00:00:35,824 --> 00:00:37,804
The increasingly aged Labour government.

13
00:00:38,224 --> 00:00:38,404
Yeah.

14
00:00:39,035 --> 00:00:39,995
Helen, how's it going?

15
00:00:40,205 --> 00:00:40,745
Helen: Not well.

16
00:00:40,804 --> 00:00:41,194
Oh, no.

17
00:00:42,425 --> 00:00:43,504
You asked, actually about, remember.

18
00:00:43,504 --> 00:00:46,024
I remember my husband woke me
up to tell me about this truss.

19
00:00:46,024 --> 00:00:49,565
I had fallen into a stupor by that
point, and he was very excited about it.

20
00:00:49,774 --> 00:00:51,364
He wanted me to be awake, so I wouldn't.

21
00:00:51,750 --> 00:00:52,950
see that momentous time?

22
00:00:53,730 --> 00:00:54,780
no, it's going really badly.

23
00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,180
we're not just at the,
in the, in the moment.

24
00:00:57,180 --> 00:00:59,190
We're in the middle of
a big welfare rebellion.

25
00:00:59,700 --> 00:01:01,629
and another u-turn by Starmer.

26
00:01:01,950 --> 00:01:05,070
But he has given a series of interviews in
which he's admitted it's not going well.

27
00:01:05,070 --> 00:01:08,490
So he said that he regretted
the island of stranger's speech.

28
00:01:08,490 --> 00:01:11,010
He didn't read it properly before
he delivered it 'cause he was too.

29
00:01:11,420 --> 00:01:15,800
Preoccupied with foreign affairs, there is
a feeling that they really stuffed up over

30
00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,450
winter fuel allowance and, double stuffed
as well in the sense that it was one of

31
00:01:20,450 --> 00:01:23,630
their first big memorable policy changes.

32
00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:26,630
And then they got themselves to
a policy where most people in the

33
00:01:26,630 --> 00:01:30,050
polling thought it, the limit should
be brought down that fewer middle

34
00:01:30,050 --> 00:01:31,550
class pensioners should get this.

35
00:01:32,045 --> 00:01:35,180
But then they overcorrect it and
they're now giving it to quite,

36
00:01:35,420 --> 00:01:36,770
quite a little well off people.

37
00:01:37,445 --> 00:01:39,845
But that then stuffs their
argument for welfare cuts.

38
00:01:39,875 --> 00:01:42,574
'cause it's really, it's like you
found a, couple of a hundred million

39
00:01:42,574 --> 00:01:44,014
down the back of the sofa for this.

40
00:01:44,464 --> 00:01:46,445
So are things really as tight as they are?

41
00:01:46,445 --> 00:01:49,685
So the current feeling on the welfare
cuts is that they're going to, save

42
00:01:49,864 --> 00:01:53,734
billions less and was initially
advertised and as yet there is no

43
00:01:53,734 --> 00:01:55,294
word on where that money comes from.

44
00:01:55,774 --> 00:01:58,024
So they're in a situation where
everybody in Downing Street

45
00:01:58,024 --> 00:01:59,134
seems to be quite grumpy.

46
00:01:59,134 --> 00:02:03,875
They've already remember got rid of Sue
Gray and now the triumph... the victor

47
00:02:03,875 --> 00:02:06,544
of that fight, Morgan McSweeney...
now everyone's grumbling about him.

48
00:02:07,234 --> 00:02:09,304
The policies have been turbulent.

49
00:02:09,304 --> 00:02:12,005
The massive majority has not been
enough to stave off the welfare

50
00:02:12,005 --> 00:02:15,575
rebellion, and Starmer himself just
seems really personally quite battered.

51
00:02:15,875 --> 00:02:18,065
So the other things that was
interesting about that Tom Baldwin

52
00:02:18,065 --> 00:02:21,334
interview, his biographer, interviewed
him for the observer, was saying

53
00:02:21,334 --> 00:02:22,054
that the reason it's a good choice,

54
00:02:22,054 --> 00:02:25,929
Adam: good choice, simply, it was
actually interviewer, just to,

55
00:02:26,090 --> 00:02:28,834
give the full CV though, not just
Keir Starmer's official biographer.

56
00:02:29,060 --> 00:02:30,710
But also Ed Milliband's, spin doctor.

57
00:02:30,710 --> 00:02:30,769
Yeah.

58
00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,470
This is a man who was absolutely
embedded in the Labour Party, was

59
00:02:33,470 --> 00:02:38,060
a fairly extraordinary kind of,
set of conflict of interest for a

60
00:02:38,060 --> 00:02:39,500
cover story and observer, I felt,

61
00:02:39,530 --> 00:02:40,430
Helen: yes, put that aside.

62
00:02:40,430 --> 00:02:43,640
But I think what that meant then, was
that their interview was unusually

63
00:02:43,640 --> 00:02:46,130
revealing and traditionally the
problem with Starmer interviews has

64
00:02:46,130 --> 00:02:49,310
been that it's like interviewing a
brick wall and everybody's somebody

65
00:02:49,310 --> 00:02:51,230
two revealing, we're talking about

66
00:02:51,230 --> 00:02:52,070
Adam: giving a report card.

67
00:02:52,070 --> 00:02:53,510
He gave a pretty damning one on himself.

68
00:02:53,690 --> 00:02:55,850
Basically, everything's gone wrong
and I'm really sorry about it.

69
00:02:55,940 --> 00:02:57,109
Helen: I dunno how I got, I dunno what

70
00:02:57,109 --> 00:02:57,440
Ian: I was thinking.

71
00:02:57,445 --> 00:02:58,670
But also on your report card.

72
00:02:58,670 --> 00:03:01,039
You don't usually say
The dog ate my homework.

73
00:03:01,969 --> 00:03:02,719
you say 'My!

74
00:03:02,719 --> 00:03:04,670
No, I... my homework: pretty good.

75
00:03:05,209 --> 00:03:06,079
It's going well.

76
00:03:06,529 --> 00:03:10,819
To say, 'I was a bit tired, I was a
bit...' even if these things are true,

77
00:03:11,119 --> 00:03:13,494
it does feed into a narrative of, I'm-

78
00:03:13,674 --> 00:03:14,094
...misery.

79
00:03:14,390 --> 00:03:15,774
I'm not sure I'm up mis misery it is.

80
00:03:16,054 --> 00:03:16,804
Helen: I think you're right.

81
00:03:16,804 --> 00:03:19,234
Like he said that the Rose Garden
speech when initially came in and

82
00:03:19,234 --> 00:03:20,584
went, God, this is all terrible.

83
00:03:20,584 --> 00:03:22,834
They again, they, all that
did was depress people.

84
00:03:22,984 --> 00:03:27,515
But then he accounts for, he says the
reason that he overreacted about, freebie

85
00:03:27,515 --> 00:03:30,754
gate, and got very defensive about it,
was they were criticizing his wife.

86
00:03:31,295 --> 00:03:33,304
Then he had the fire bombing on his home.

87
00:03:33,420 --> 00:03:37,769
Which I think is genuinely, any,
anyone would be distressed by that.

88
00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,730
And then his, brother Nick again, he
tried to protect and be very private

89
00:03:41,730 --> 00:03:45,239
about died of cancer after having kind
of him, again, not wanting to speak

90
00:03:45,239 --> 00:03:48,809
publicly about it, but there is this
running theme throughout, which is two

91
00:03:48,809 --> 00:03:53,340
things, which is one, he doesn't really
like politics, the art of making people

92
00:03:53,340 --> 00:03:54,989
do what you want or convincing them.

93
00:03:55,530 --> 00:03:58,769
And two, he's unable to
emotionally articulate his own

94
00:03:58,769 --> 00:04:01,410
story or himself as a character.

95
00:04:01,619 --> 00:04:06,269
In the kind of national narrative,
apart from being a bit dry and boring

96
00:04:06,269 --> 00:04:10,349
and a human rights lawyer, it, Ian,
tell me, when you are trying to

97
00:04:10,529 --> 00:04:14,339
caricature him and do jokes about
him, is it actually quite difficult?

98
00:04:14,399 --> 00:04:14,789
Yes.

99
00:04:15,209 --> 00:04:18,360
Ian: it, is difficult and usually
the jokes are about his failure to

100
00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:19,860
spot what other people are saying.

101
00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,360
when the joke comes from him not knowing
that other people around him don't agree.

102
00:04:24,510 --> 00:04:24,660
Yeah.

103
00:04:24,660 --> 00:04:25,785
With his version of himself.

104
00:04:26,285 --> 00:04:29,405
And that is a problem, but, and
you remember when Rishi Cenac

105
00:04:29,405 --> 00:04:31,985
said, don't, go for my wife.

106
00:04:32,525 --> 00:04:33,965
The public didn't care.

107
00:04:34,475 --> 00:04:35,945
People will accept the narrative.

108
00:04:36,205 --> 00:04:40,985
they're not callers, but what they want to
say is, why are you making these mistakes?

109
00:04:41,105 --> 00:04:42,695
And if you say, I'm making these mistakes.

110
00:04:42,725 --> 00:04:44,315
'cause life's tough, it's

111
00:04:44,735 --> 00:04:45,065
Helen: tough

112
00:04:45,065 --> 00:04:47,200
Ian: for a lot of other
people and tougher.

113
00:04:47,390 --> 00:04:48,950
I don't think they buy it.

114
00:04:49,099 --> 00:04:51,830
Helen: But also because in the case
of Starmer and almost every Prime

115
00:04:51,830 --> 00:04:54,979
Minister, they obviously schemed and
plotted intensely to get there, right?

116
00:04:54,979 --> 00:04:56,930
This was a job you really, wanted.

117
00:04:57,289 --> 00:05:00,530
So no, we are not that interested
in you saying, oh gosh, it's

118
00:05:00,530 --> 00:05:01,969
really quite hard, isn't it?

119
00:05:02,840 --> 00:05:05,300
I always felt like that about Ed
Milliand's tenure at top of Labour is

120
00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:06,859
he was terribly martyred by it all.

121
00:05:06,859 --> 00:05:10,490
And it was like, but you've literally torn
your family apart, your poor mother trying

122
00:05:10,490 --> 00:05:11,900
to arbitrate between the two brothers.

123
00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:13,270
This is how much he wanted it.

124
00:05:14,170 --> 00:05:16,390
Adam: does seem to be a bit of a
pattern with Labour leaders, isn't it?

125
00:05:16,450 --> 00:05:19,000
That they put all of their energies
and all of their thought and all of

126
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,180
their kind of strategic thinking into
becoming leader and then when they get

127
00:05:22,180 --> 00:05:23,530
there, quite often, don't really know.

128
00:05:23,530 --> 00:05:26,080
I'm a think of Gordon Brown
here, who, spent most of his

129
00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,080
time as chancellor, 10 years or
whatever, that was just desperately

130
00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:30,130
scheming to stick over the top.

131
00:05:30,130 --> 00:05:33,005
And he got there just fumbled
it completely and didn't

132
00:05:33,005 --> 00:05:35,344
seem to know what, he,

133
00:05:35,344 --> 00:05:36,305
Andy: wanted to do with it.

134
00:05:37,235 --> 00:05:40,565
by that metric, Boris Johnson was also
a brilliant Labour leader, surely?

135
00:05:40,565 --> 00:05:40,655
Yes.

136
00:05:42,575 --> 00:05:42,815
Given the

137
00:05:42,815 --> 00:05:44,585
Ian: rise in immigration and borrowing.

138
00:05:45,245 --> 00:05:47,615
you could argue he was
a classic Labour leader,

139
00:05:47,825 --> 00:05:48,365
Helen: but you are right.

140
00:05:48,575 --> 00:05:51,335
Sometimes I criticize Ed Balls and
George Osborne on the way they talk

141
00:05:51,335 --> 00:05:53,945
about things on their podcast is
like everything's a sort of game.

142
00:05:53,970 --> 00:05:54,030
Yeah.

143
00:05:54,660 --> 00:05:58,530
this is, oh, we, did such a great dividing
line on this, and and and then they end

144
00:05:58,530 --> 00:06:00,930
up talking about things that you think,
that would've been good if it happened.

145
00:06:00,930 --> 00:06:02,610
So well done for scuttling it.

146
00:06:03,180 --> 00:06:07,530
But the other end of that continuum
is, Kier who disdains the idea that

147
00:06:07,530 --> 00:06:12,330
you might ever do anything as grubby
as, run a campaign to convince

148
00:06:12,330 --> 00:06:13,890
mps of something that you like.

149
00:06:14,340 --> 00:06:18,180
Ian: But isn't one of the problems that
we, traditionally blame the advisors.

150
00:06:18,690 --> 00:06:22,290
So I was reading a lot this week,
but it's all MCs, Sweeney's fault.

151
00:06:23,375 --> 00:06:25,385
and before that, it was all Sue graceful.

152
00:06:26,075 --> 00:06:30,755
Maybe, it's not, maybe it's star's
fault, I'm just possibly, are we

153
00:06:30,755 --> 00:06:34,474
keen to let people off and then
blame the people around them?

154
00:06:34,745 --> 00:06:37,325
Helen: Oh, unbelievably because
you don't wanna be disloyal to the

155
00:06:37,325 --> 00:06:40,085
leader who is ultimately the one
with the power of patronage, right?

156
00:06:40,085 --> 00:06:42,724
When they're, there's a lot
of Labour mps and most of them

157
00:06:42,724 --> 00:06:45,065
won't have government jobs, Yeah.

158
00:06:45,065 --> 00:06:47,405
So there's an incredibly
cutthroat atmosphere among them.

159
00:06:47,825 --> 00:06:50,405
So one thing you don't want
to do is go Starmer's rubbish.

160
00:06:50,780 --> 00:06:53,810
You end up on Rosie Duffield's
trajectory where you just criticize

161
00:06:53,810 --> 00:06:56,270
yourself out and out in tent and
you end up as an independent.

162
00:06:56,540 --> 00:06:59,270
And I think there are lots of them who
aren't ready to make that step yet.

163
00:06:59,270 --> 00:07:02,600
So having a go at Morgan McSweeney
is the sort of acceptable face of

164
00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,440
something is wrong in this party, but
of course, king Starmer can fix it.

165
00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:07,340
We still believe in him.

166
00:07:07,550 --> 00:07:09,890
Adam: And it's always quite useful
for a leader as well to have a

167
00:07:09,890 --> 00:07:13,190
kind of worm tongue who they can
sacrifice at any, given time.

168
00:07:13,190 --> 00:07:16,040
And I'm thinking of the, and there was
a real point of Alistair Campbell is

169
00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:20,300
retiring from Downing Street Post, Hutton
inquiry, still stuck around and seemed to

170
00:07:20,300 --> 00:07:21,920
be do, doing the job for most of the time.

171
00:07:22,070 --> 00:07:23,720
Damien McBride was let go, wasn't he?

172
00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:25,910
Partway through, Gordon Brown's tenure.

173
00:07:25,910 --> 00:07:27,530
So it's quite useful to someone you can.

174
00:07:27,530 --> 00:07:28,755
Pete Mandelson, of course, was dumped.

175
00:07:29,301 --> 00:07:29,535
yeah.

176
00:07:29,535 --> 00:07:30,585
Early on, over the mortgages.

177
00:07:30,945 --> 00:07:34,155
So having someone you can put
out there as chum to distract the

178
00:07:34,155 --> 00:07:35,805
sharks is quite useful as well, I

179
00:07:35,805 --> 00:07:36,105
Ian: guess.

180
00:07:36,165 --> 00:07:41,535
And we all say that, oh, the toy party is
now obsessed by, registered and murdering.

181
00:07:42,020 --> 00:07:44,210
But it could be that just
everyone's obsessed by it.

182
00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,820
And we've had, Keir Starmer's
has been in charge for ages.

183
00:07:46,820 --> 00:07:47,990
Can we have someone else now?

184
00:07:49,250 --> 00:07:54,290
Is not everybody guilty of this failure
to, have an attention span more than

185
00:07:54,290 --> 00:07:56,360
about a year for any one leader?

186
00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:57,740
I'm just, I'm concerned.

187
00:07:57,890 --> 00:08:00,830
Helen: No, you, I think there is an
interesting point about trying to be

188
00:08:00,830 --> 00:08:03,770
really objective about marking how
well the government has done, which

189
00:08:03,770 --> 00:08:07,219
is just really hard in terms of, they
put in lots of things that won't.

190
00:08:07,220 --> 00:08:09,860
Payoff for several years, like the
attempt to get house building going,

191
00:08:09,860 --> 00:08:12,950
for example, like Angela Rayner
calling in projects and approving them.

192
00:08:13,130 --> 00:08:15,290
Those are things that might
look very different in five

193
00:08:15,290 --> 00:08:16,640
years time than they do now.

194
00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,850
But one thing, I think the thing that
you were alluding to is the fact that

195
00:08:19,850 --> 00:08:23,870
Starmer is quite ill suited for being a
prime minister in the age of social media.

196
00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:25,940
yeah, he's just doesn't like it.

197
00:08:25,940 --> 00:08:26,780
He doesn't do it.

198
00:08:26,780 --> 00:08:28,340
It's not his, I think it was just that

199
00:08:28,340 --> 00:08:30,680
Adam: he doesn't like doing
politics as it is in the modern era.

200
00:08:30,710 --> 00:08:32,120
He might be in the wrong job though,

201
00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:32,839
Andy: right?

202
00:08:33,620 --> 00:08:38,414
you become a, I know he's only been a.
An MP since 2015, but there is this.

203
00:08:38,990 --> 00:08:42,859
Supposed rule of politics that whoever
can govern the newest medium wins.

204
00:08:43,129 --> 00:08:47,240
And unfortunately, by that metric, that's
Nigel Farage, Because ni, I think some

205
00:08:47,359 --> 00:08:52,430
extraordinary state has more followers on
TikTok than the other 649 mps combined.

206
00:08:53,089 --> 00:08:53,720
Ian: And that's good.

207
00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:54,050
Is it?

208
00:08:54,379 --> 00:08:54,980
Andy: No, not.

209
00:08:56,300 --> 00:08:56,569
I don't think so.

210
00:08:56,569 --> 00:08:57,170
Ian: I'm joking Andy!

211
00:08:57,170 --> 00:08:57,560
Andy: But it is.

212
00:08:57,560 --> 00:08:57,829
Yeah.

213
00:08:57,940 --> 00:08:58,099
he's...

214
00:08:58,099 --> 00:09:00,079
Helen: But he talks very
directly to people, doesn't he?

215
00:09:00,619 --> 00:09:01,129
That's the, point.

216
00:09:01,129 --> 00:09:04,849
He's found a way to bypass media
gatekeepers, which is meant that they've

217
00:09:04,849 --> 00:09:06,290
ended up running to catch up with him.

218
00:09:06,530 --> 00:09:09,079
I think that's one of the things that
Labour struggles to do is they're

219
00:09:09,079 --> 00:09:12,530
still locked into the Sunday shows
and the morning broadcast round.

220
00:09:12,530 --> 00:09:13,250
There is this obsession

221
00:09:13,250 --> 00:09:14,300
Adam: with the newspapers as well.

222
00:09:14,300 --> 00:09:14,359
Yeah.

223
00:09:14,359 --> 00:09:17,780
Which are, I'm afraid, a dying industry
in terms of setting the agenda.

224
00:09:17,780 --> 00:09:20,014
But they do, still seem to
set the agenda for a lot of.

225
00:09:20,079 --> 00:09:21,160
Newspapers, not magazines.

226
00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:22,300
Magazines are doing brilliantly.

227
00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:22,599
Yeah.

228
00:09:22,599 --> 00:09:24,339
But there is this desperate number
and they spent so much time,

229
00:09:24,339 --> 00:09:25,810
there are redundancies available.

230
00:09:26,950 --> 00:09:30,040
So much time courting the sun and
the Times and all the Murdoch papers

231
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,020
before the election to no avail really.

232
00:09:32,020 --> 00:09:32,920
It didn't get them anywhere.

233
00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,069
They got a really sort of
half-hearted last minute, endorsement

234
00:09:36,069 --> 00:09:38,740
from the sun and not even one
from the Times, I don't think.

235
00:09:39,069 --> 00:09:42,520
And, they're working in an analog
age still that the idea that

236
00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,619
it's the somewhat want it, which
was never particularly true.

237
00:09:44,619 --> 00:09:45,129
Anyway,

238
00:09:45,430 --> 00:09:47,800
Helen: the other interesting thing I
think is the attitude towards reform.

239
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:48,670
So Starmer says it.

240
00:09:48,750 --> 00:09:52,470
Implicitly in that observer article that
yes, he's running against Nigel Farage,

241
00:09:52,530 --> 00:09:53,880
which on the surface looks mad, right?

242
00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,910
It's a party with half a dozen
mps, but they're leading in

243
00:09:56,910 --> 00:09:58,590
almost every poll these days.

244
00:09:58,890 --> 00:10:01,740
And the other thing he says, which
I don't think he's done yet, is if

245
00:10:01,740 --> 00:10:05,010
the, reforms arguments are really
popular, we have to take them head on.

246
00:10:05,284 --> 00:10:08,194
I would probably like to see a bit
more of that because for all that

247
00:10:08,194 --> 00:10:10,234
he's recanted island of strangers.

248
00:10:10,234 --> 00:10:13,234
He says he regrets the, and any
idea there was an echo of Enoch

249
00:10:13,234 --> 00:10:14,315
Powell, although they didn't see it.

250
00:10:14,524 --> 00:10:17,944
He also said he regrets what was in
the forward to that white paper, which

251
00:10:17,944 --> 00:10:21,155
remember when we picked up on the podcast
here, which was that immigration is done

252
00:10:21,155 --> 00:10:23,224
incalculable damage to this country.

253
00:10:23,915 --> 00:10:26,405
But, the problem about that is you
can say, oh, I wish I hadn't said

254
00:10:26,405 --> 00:10:27,905
such spicy things, but he's not.

255
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,670
Said anything proactively himself
yet that is anti Nigel Farage.

256
00:10:32,780 --> 00:10:33,530
I just, I'm not sure.

257
00:10:33,680 --> 00:10:37,849
What they really need is a couple
of absolute attack dogs who will

258
00:10:37,849 --> 00:10:42,829
go personally and hard for Nigel
Farage, but have the credibility,

259
00:10:42,829 --> 00:10:44,420
the background, and the.

260
00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,140
Aptitude with social media
to play in that sphere.

261
00:10:47,589 --> 00:10:50,500
Who have they really got
that's got that ferocity?

262
00:10:50,740 --> 00:10:52,480
Adam: Angela Rayner could probably
do it, but they're quite scared

263
00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,119
of her because she's seen as being
the big rival to star, isn't she?

264
00:10:55,119 --> 00:10:55,300
Yeah.

265
00:10:55,365 --> 00:10:55,605
Oh yeah.

266
00:10:55,780 --> 00:10:57,819
so she's not allowed to
be any good publicly.

267
00:10:58,119 --> 00:10:59,230
She's allowed out in public.

268
00:10:59,230 --> 00:10:59,560
Is she?

269
00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:00,220
Very much.

270
00:11:00,490 --> 00:11:02,829
Helen: I guess for her it's also,
yeah, as you say, it's a question

271
00:11:02,829 --> 00:11:05,020
about how much she wants to
associate herself with this project.

272
00:11:05,020 --> 00:11:06,250
That's not really going very well.

273
00:11:06,550 --> 00:11:09,430
Because someone who, is delighting
and not going well, maybe that's a

274
00:11:09,430 --> 00:11:12,220
bit over, over the top, but certainly
Andy Burnham is handing around the

275
00:11:12,220 --> 00:11:13,810
fringes going, I wouldn't cut welfare.

276
00:11:14,050 --> 00:11:15,070
Just putting it out there.

277
00:11:15,070 --> 00:11:15,130
Yeah.

278
00:11:15,700 --> 00:11:18,340
And then s Khan too, to some extent,
that is the problem of having

279
00:11:18,340 --> 00:11:21,970
those big mayors who don't sit in
parliament is that they can say,

280
00:11:22,030 --> 00:11:22,690
oh, I

281
00:11:22,746 --> 00:11:24,306
Personally would give everybody

282
00:11:24,364 --> 00:11:24,814
a rabbit

283
00:11:25,108 --> 00:11:27,448
Adam: we've talked a lot about the
failure to do anything with messaging.

284
00:11:27,728 --> 00:11:30,838
the messaging that the mps were sent
out there to defend these welfare

285
00:11:30,838 --> 00:11:33,568
cuts before the U-turn on them was
completely disingenuous anyway.

286
00:11:34,038 --> 00:11:36,918
Because it was trying to, essentially
this is all about saving money as

287
00:11:36,918 --> 00:11:40,098
everything is in government at the
moment, but it was presented as in this

288
00:11:40,098 --> 00:11:43,908
totally nonsensical way of restricting
personal independence payments.

289
00:11:43,908 --> 00:11:45,228
We'll get people back into work.

290
00:11:45,558 --> 00:11:48,018
that doesn't work because personal
independence payments aren't related.

291
00:11:48,018 --> 00:11:50,718
They're not an employment, alternative.

292
00:11:50,748 --> 00:11:55,068
They are there to support people with
the, mobility equipment or the, care

293
00:11:55,068 --> 00:11:58,548
needs that they have in order to be able
to live their life, which an enormous

294
00:11:58,548 --> 00:12:01,578
percentage of people who are on PIP
is, does involve actually working.

295
00:12:01,903 --> 00:12:04,753
So the argument didn't even make
sense that they were being sent

296
00:12:04,753 --> 00:12:06,253
out to sacrifice themselves.

297
00:12:06,343 --> 00:12:06,463
But

298
00:12:06,463 --> 00:12:06,793
Helen: you are right.

299
00:12:06,793 --> 00:12:08,353
That comes back to
following the papers, right?

300
00:12:08,383 --> 00:12:11,923
'cause they halfway wanted a,
sun friendly scrounge of Britain.

301
00:12:11,923 --> 00:12:13,123
Too many people are out of work.

302
00:12:13,123 --> 00:12:15,403
They need to know the value
of a honest day's graft.

303
00:12:15,643 --> 00:12:18,943
And then they also didn't wanna upset
all of the key groups and disability

304
00:12:18,943 --> 00:12:22,363
groups and the, and their own mps
and people who've been through that

305
00:12:22,363 --> 00:12:25,303
process and know that it can be
really bureaucratic and horrible.

306
00:12:25,543 --> 00:12:26,023
So you are right.

307
00:12:26,023 --> 00:12:29,203
They ended up neither doing
one nor the other really.

308
00:12:29,468 --> 00:12:32,108
Ian: But that's true in all of
the major U-turns, isn't it?

309
00:12:32,138 --> 00:12:32,408
Yeah.

310
00:12:33,578 --> 00:12:36,428
the U-turn, 'cause they didn't get
the message right to start with

311
00:12:36,818 --> 00:12:41,648
saying people like Ian should not
be claiming winter fuel benefit old

312
00:12:41,648 --> 00:12:43,118
balls, who can afford it anyway.

313
00:12:43,328 --> 00:12:44,108
Good messaging.

314
00:12:44,798 --> 00:12:46,088
Adam: They didn't do any of that.

315
00:12:46,463 --> 00:12:49,073
Even now, the compromise they've
come to seems equally nonsensical.

316
00:12:49,073 --> 00:12:51,383
There's a moment we're speaking ahead
of the vote, which is gonna be on

317
00:12:51,383 --> 00:12:55,193
Tuesday this week, but the suggestion
now is that the restrictions on pip,

318
00:12:55,583 --> 00:12:58,193
are gonna come in for future applicants.

319
00:12:58,253 --> 00:13:00,683
But nothing is gonna change for
the people who are on it now.

320
00:13:00,683 --> 00:13:00,803
Yes.

321
00:13:00,803 --> 00:13:04,013
Helen: So if you've got multiple
sclerosis, now you're gonna get, help

322
00:13:04,013 --> 00:13:06,953
that people who are diagnosed with
multiple sclerosis in 2027 won't get.

323
00:13:08,018 --> 00:13:10,178
Adam: it's, either wrong or
it's not wrong, isn't it?

324
00:13:10,178 --> 00:13:10,448
But this

325
00:13:10,448 --> 00:13:12,938
Helen: alludes to these, the salient
factor of British politics, and

326
00:13:12,938 --> 00:13:15,158
I guess probably all politics you
need to understand, which is that

327
00:13:15,158 --> 00:13:18,278
once you give people entitlements,
it's really hard to take them away.

328
00:13:18,458 --> 00:13:20,768
Adam: the Winter Fuel Allowance is
spoken about now as if it was part of

329
00:13:20,768 --> 00:13:23,288
Magna Carta or something 90, was it 97?

330
00:13:23,288 --> 00:13:24,818
99? Gordon Brown brought that in.

331
00:13:24,818 --> 00:13:27,158
But once it's there, you
can't then rain back on it.

332
00:13:27,158 --> 00:13:28,298
Andy: Isn't there a one-off?

333
00:13:28,358 --> 00:13:29,828
10 pound payment.

334
00:13:29,948 --> 00:13:32,258
That was a Gordon Brown
innovation that appears.

335
00:13:32,873 --> 00:13:33,163
Yeah.

336
00:13:33,168 --> 00:13:33,338
Yeah.

337
00:13:33,338 --> 00:13:37,238
It's the Christmas 10 pound topup, and
it appears in everyone's statement at the

338
00:13:37,238 --> 00:13:38,498
end of the year when you're totting up.

339
00:13:39,008 --> 00:13:42,038
if you're liable for tax or anything,
all these other quite normal

340
00:13:42,038 --> 00:13:44,888
looking amounts of money, there's
one little tenor in there as well.

341
00:13:45,038 --> 00:13:46,898
And that is the same
kind of thing, isn't it?

342
00:13:46,898 --> 00:13:47,048
But the

343
00:13:47,048 --> 00:13:48,428
Helen: winter fuel Lance,
you're entirely right.

344
00:13:48,428 --> 00:13:50,228
Adam was brought in at a
time when pensioners were

345
00:13:50,228 --> 00:13:51,968
the poorest group in Britain.

346
00:13:51,968 --> 00:13:53,648
They're now the wealthiest
group in Britain.

347
00:13:53,648 --> 00:13:56,048
And that's not to say there aren't
people within that cohort who are really

348
00:13:56,048 --> 00:13:59,348
challenged, but there are also lots of
quite middle class people who are doing

349
00:13:59,348 --> 00:14:02,108
better than working age people who are
not getting help with their fuel bills.

350
00:14:02,738 --> 00:14:05,978
Andy: So, what's wrong with the
policy as it originally was?

351
00:14:07,333 --> 00:14:08,503
Helen: just bad messaging, bad sell.

352
00:14:08,503 --> 00:14:12,013
No, the cutoff at 11,500 was too low.

353
00:14:12,013 --> 00:14:12,043
Okay.

354
00:14:12,073 --> 00:14:14,713
I think that was the thing and,
the polling said that a plurality,

355
00:14:14,713 --> 00:14:17,743
people thought the policy was
correct, but they've now changed it

356
00:14:17,743 --> 00:14:19,603
again to make it really quite high.

357
00:14:19,843 --> 00:14:22,213
there's all kinds of weird stuff about
the tax system relating to pensions.

358
00:14:22,363 --> 00:14:24,253
They don't pay national
insurance, for example.

359
00:14:24,433 --> 00:14:27,523
Like I just, that seems to me to be,
people can write it and explain to me

360
00:14:27,523 --> 00:14:31,363
why I'm wrong about that, but I dunno why
we treat pinch pension incomes so very

361
00:14:31,363 --> 00:14:32,983
differently from working age incomes.

362
00:14:33,733 --> 00:14:36,913
when the, like the, demographic
change has been so stuck and

363
00:14:36,913 --> 00:14:37,993
which is good by the way.

364
00:14:37,993 --> 00:14:38,533
I'm just saying.

365
00:14:38,533 --> 00:14:40,903
It's really good that people live
longer and there are a few of them

366
00:14:40,903 --> 00:14:42,073
freezing to death in their homes.

367
00:14:42,253 --> 00:14:42,913
That's great.

368
00:14:43,153 --> 00:14:46,243
But political reality hasn't caught up
with it yet, nor has it caught up with

369
00:14:46,243 --> 00:14:49,513
the fact that, particularly since the
pandemic, a lot of people, more people

370
00:14:49,513 --> 00:14:53,738
are sick and claiming benefits and there
is clearly something, whether or not you.

371
00:14:54,298 --> 00:14:55,858
Think all of those are legitimate or not.

372
00:14:55,858 --> 00:14:57,598
That is just a statistical fact.

373
00:14:57,598 --> 00:14:59,248
So we do have to do something about it.

374
00:14:59,608 --> 00:14:59,908
Ian: Yes.

375
00:14:59,908 --> 00:15:03,508
And if you don't state that, if you
don't admit that upfront that this

376
00:15:03,508 --> 00:15:06,388
is the situation and we're trying to
do something about it, then people

377
00:15:06,388 --> 00:15:07,978
just assume your motives are wrong.

378
00:15:08,638 --> 00:15:09,688
Yeah, I think it's difficult.

379
00:15:10,108 --> 00:15:12,618
I know some of the press
do it to say, Starmer.

380
00:15:12,818 --> 00:15:16,688
What he really wants to do is target
poor people and make them poorer.

381
00:15:17,018 --> 00:15:18,578
I'm guessing that isn't true.

382
00:15:18,968 --> 00:15:21,068
Yeah, I would guess that's
not his life's work.

383
00:15:21,878 --> 00:15:27,008
but if, you allow that to grab
hold as some sort of macho,

384
00:15:27,518 --> 00:15:29,138
position in your, politicing.

385
00:15:30,403 --> 00:15:31,303
Then it will.

386
00:15:31,543 --> 00:15:35,593
I'm worried that Anthony Selden
says that K Starmer has started

387
00:15:35,593 --> 00:15:37,423
off worse than Liz Truss.

388
00:15:39,463 --> 00:15:40,843
Andy: It's not the review you want, is it?

389
00:15:41,323 --> 00:15:45,043
So do we have a little list of
top tips or recommendations?

390
00:15:45,193 --> 00:15:46,843
Send out Big Ange against.

391
00:15:46,963 --> 00:15:48,358
Big Nij, stop doings.

392
00:15:48,358 --> 00:15:49,408
When you say, I thought

393
00:15:49,408 --> 00:15:50,938
Helen: you were talking about
poster Cogley, and I was like,

394
00:15:50,938 --> 00:15:51,988
he's been sacked by Spurs.

395
00:15:51,988 --> 00:15:52,978
Andy, what are you talking about?

396
00:15:52,978 --> 00:15:53,458
But yes.

397
00:15:53,608 --> 00:15:53,848
Okay.

398
00:15:53,848 --> 00:15:53,938
You've

399
00:15:53,938 --> 00:15:54,508
Andy: lost me already

400
00:15:55,318 --> 00:15:59,098
Helen: So ripped de her into some football
law that I think the problem is they need

401
00:15:59,098 --> 00:16:01,888
to level with people about how little
money we've got and the fact that it's now

402
00:16:01,888 --> 00:16:04,108
a zero sum game between competing groups.

403
00:16:04,348 --> 00:16:06,208
And if they're gonna give
winter fuel, Lance, that means

404
00:16:06,358 --> 00:16:07,858
that is coming from somebody.

405
00:16:08,638 --> 00:16:10,528
but they, obviously, they won't do that.

406
00:16:10,588 --> 00:16:12,928
I also, and I've been saying
this now for some time, I, can,

407
00:16:13,048 --> 00:16:13,918
I'm gonna keep saying it is.

408
00:16:14,308 --> 00:16:16,408
Just put up income tax, just do it.

409
00:16:17,218 --> 00:16:19,678
I don't, want to, none of us in
this room I'm sure are clamoring

410
00:16:19,678 --> 00:16:24,148
to pay more tax, but there are, no
ways to, we can't borrow anymore.

411
00:16:24,148 --> 00:16:26,128
Our debt repayments are
already pretty crippling.

412
00:16:26,578 --> 00:16:30,238
There's not obvious cuts, or at
least not obvious immediate cuts

413
00:16:30,238 --> 00:16:31,558
without some upfront investment.

414
00:16:31,858 --> 00:16:35,698
Like I'm sure we could cut, the
spending on justice in prisons.

415
00:16:35,908 --> 00:16:37,588
But we're gonna have to get
through the backlog first.

416
00:16:37,588 --> 00:16:39,958
We could maybe cut some of the
spending on asylum, but we're gonna

417
00:16:39,958 --> 00:16:41,248
have to get through the backlog first.

418
00:16:41,518 --> 00:16:46,408
There's lots of sticking plaster solutions
all over stuff that we will require

419
00:16:46,408 --> 00:16:48,508
money to, put in first to, to fix them.

420
00:16:48,598 --> 00:16:50,848
And I dunno how you don't do
that with just simply more.

421
00:16:51,448 --> 00:16:51,718
Anyway.

422
00:16:51,718 --> 00:16:53,968
Rachel Reeves will come to this
conclusion in about September.

423
00:16:53,968 --> 00:16:54,628
I would've thought so.

424
00:16:55,048 --> 00:16:55,378
Yeah.

425
00:16:55,468 --> 00:16:58,948
Ian: You need one of your big
hitters to point out that the Reform

426
00:16:58,948 --> 00:17:02,218
version of, tax less spend more.

427
00:17:02,798 --> 00:17:04,148
Doesn't usually work.

428
00:17:04,298 --> 00:17:09,038
Helen: No, I thought his Robin Hood tax
idea, this one off fee for non doms,

429
00:17:09,218 --> 00:17:10,448
that then you give it to poor people.

430
00:17:10,448 --> 00:17:13,298
I thought that was really, he's got
the opposite problem to, Stan, which

431
00:17:13,298 --> 00:17:14,768
is, that's really smart politically.

432
00:17:14,978 --> 00:17:19,268
I like the idea of saying, let's charge
rich people a flat fee and let's get

433
00:17:19,268 --> 00:17:20,918
that directly to the poorest people.

434
00:17:21,098 --> 00:17:24,008
Unfortunately, Dan Nigel, who's
a tax expert that I would trust

435
00:17:24,008 --> 00:17:24,938
has just gone, I'm sorry, the.

436
00:17:24,973 --> 00:17:28,058
Some simply don't work like this is,
you'll lose a lot of money by doing that.

437
00:17:28,578 --> 00:17:29,458
billions and billions.

438
00:17:29,458 --> 00:17:30,013
It doesn't work.

439
00:17:30,013 --> 00:17:30,673
It's a nice idea.

440
00:17:30,853 --> 00:17:34,693
But you'll see in that the contours
of the new Nigel Farage argument,

441
00:17:34,693 --> 00:17:39,043
which is our protected interest
groups are gonna get more money.

442
00:17:39,103 --> 00:17:42,103
He's not a dry thatcherite,
fiscal conservative anymore.

443
00:17:42,163 --> 00:17:45,163
He is, I think, as you were
saying earlier in he's like left

444
00:17:45,163 --> 00:17:46,633
new, left wing, Nigel, right?

445
00:17:46,723 --> 00:17:47,353
He wants to give.

446
00:17:47,933 --> 00:17:51,323
He wants to give the people who might vote
reform more money and protect their money.

447
00:17:52,373 --> 00:17:56,093
and he claims that there's an easy cost
free way of doing this, but there's not,

448
00:17:56,273 --> 00:17:58,313
Andy: well, at least there's no
time in the past where he's claimed

449
00:17:58,313 --> 00:18:00,653
something, where the numbers don't
add up and won a lot of people over

450
00:18:02,753 --> 00:18:03,083
Helen: anyway.

451
00:18:04,223 --> 00:18:05,423
Ian: You have to bring it up, don't you?

452
00:18:05,513 --> 00:18:05,573
Yeah.

453
00:18:09,503 --> 00:18:13,043
I think we should point out that during
the ad break there's been a coup Yeah.

454
00:18:13,103 --> 00:18:17,333
And a rather dry leader of
the podcast has been replaced.

455
00:18:17,333 --> 00:18:17,663
Wow.

456
00:18:17,663 --> 00:18:19,433
By his feisty female deputy.

457
00:18:19,583 --> 00:18:19,673
God,

458
00:18:19,763 --> 00:18:21,473
Helen: that's so true.

459
00:18:21,473 --> 00:18:23,273
The gobby woman has finally taken over.

460
00:18:23,573 --> 00:18:27,923
Andy, I want you to tell me, Andy,
why is it so bloody hot and is it.

461
00:18:28,003 --> 00:18:30,523
Is it fossil fuels or is it just the sun?

462
00:18:31,123 --> 00:18:31,423
Andy: Think about it.

463
00:18:31,573 --> 00:18:35,173
it's a combination of
volcanoes, sunspot activity.

464
00:18:35,173 --> 00:18:36,583
Nothing to do with fossil fuels at all.

465
00:18:36,583 --> 00:18:37,603
So don't worry about that.

466
00:18:37,783 --> 00:18:41,053
Helen: But genuinely, we're, as we're
recording this, it's in the thirties

467
00:18:41,053 --> 00:18:43,753
outside and that is unusual for June?

468
00:18:43,753 --> 00:18:45,853
Or is it, 'cause that was
the problem for a long time.

469
00:18:45,853 --> 00:18:48,733
If you remember, every time someone would
talk about global warming, someone would

470
00:18:48,733 --> 00:18:50,083
go, it didn't feel very warm, does it?

471
00:18:50,083 --> 00:18:50,953
It's very cold in here.

472
00:18:50,953 --> 00:18:51,553
It's December.

473
00:18:52,003 --> 00:18:55,303
Andy: I had a little look at the
Met Office who do keep quite good

474
00:18:55,303 --> 00:19:01,278
records on this sort of thing, This
spring, it's been between 1.3 and 1.6

475
00:19:01,278 --> 00:19:02,598
degrees above the long-term average.

476
00:19:02,958 --> 00:19:06,288
That is obviously a weird thing to say
when it is sweltering the hot outside,

477
00:19:06,288 --> 00:19:08,118
you think it is not 1.6 degrees warmer.

478
00:19:08,628 --> 00:19:11,898
Actually, when you do that at a
global level, what it means in

479
00:19:11,898 --> 00:19:14,928
reality is that bits of the UK are
five degrees warmer than normal.

480
00:19:15,048 --> 00:19:19,368
Some bits of the UK as we recall this, are
11 degrees warmer than they normally are.

481
00:19:19,578 --> 00:19:24,348
So the sort of the 1.5 degrees above
actually translates to really quite

482
00:19:24,348 --> 00:19:26,478
scorchy temperatures for all of us.

483
00:19:26,928 --> 00:19:27,738
so that's the met.

484
00:19:28,068 --> 00:19:28,308
Yeah.

485
00:19:28,608 --> 00:19:32,898
Helen: And are British homes and buildings
particularly badly adapted for this?

486
00:19:32,898 --> 00:19:35,328
I say this to somebody who lives
in a house that in about June

487
00:19:35,328 --> 00:19:39,768
transforms into an oven, and doesn't
transform back again until September.

488
00:19:40,098 --> 00:19:41,538
Andy: a lot of people are
probably rethinking their

489
00:19:41,538 --> 00:19:42,768
conservatories around now.

490
00:19:42,768 --> 00:19:43,428
That is true to.

491
00:19:43,468 --> 00:19:46,738
Say, I don't think the UK
is especially badly adapted.

492
00:19:46,738 --> 00:19:49,318
I think traditionally we've had
a kind of very normal, pretty

493
00:19:49,318 --> 00:19:50,998
mild climate in both directions.

494
00:19:51,508 --> 00:19:55,168
the reason that we struggle when it snows
unexpectedly in winter is that it's only

495
00:19:55,168 --> 00:19:56,488
ever been snowy for a couple of days.

496
00:19:56,488 --> 00:19:58,858
So we've never bothered buying
a huge fleet of snowplows

497
00:19:59,128 --> 00:20:00,208
as you might get in Canada.

498
00:20:00,628 --> 00:20:03,868
Same thing is happening now with
heat as the climate is warming.

499
00:20:04,378 --> 00:20:07,528
our homes are not really built
for this kind of heat, but I don't

500
00:20:07,528 --> 00:20:10,108
think Britain is unusual in having.

501
00:20:10,173 --> 00:20:13,503
Set up its entire society and
infrastructure and everything like that

502
00:20:13,713 --> 00:20:17,283
for a particular range of temperatures,
which we're now going beyond bits of

503
00:20:17,283 --> 00:20:21,933
Europe are now 42 to 46 degrees Celsius.

504
00:20:21,993 --> 00:20:24,603
Southern Spain is not built
for 46 degrees Celsius.

505
00:20:24,603 --> 00:20:25,113
You know that.

506
00:20:25,718 --> 00:20:29,018
Nowhere really is outside
places like Saudi Arabia.

507
00:20:29,018 --> 00:20:31,628
Helen: Nowhere is it, India hit
50 at some point in the last

508
00:20:31,628 --> 00:20:32,228
couple of years, didn't it?

509
00:20:32,228 --> 00:20:32,288
Yeah.

510
00:20:32,288 --> 00:20:34,748
And there were all the like lists
of stuff that they had to do, the

511
00:20:34,748 --> 00:20:38,378
traffic policemen wearing like sleeves
made of ice, to go and like just

512
00:20:38,378 --> 00:20:41,378
trying to keep people who had to work
outside cold is almost impossible.

513
00:20:41,383 --> 00:20:41,403
Andy: Yeah.

514
00:20:41,408 --> 00:20:41,768
Yeah.

515
00:20:41,768 --> 00:20:43,178
So I think Ev everywhere is.

516
00:20:43,418 --> 00:20:46,628
Is maladjusted for the temperatures that
we're having now is, basically the thing,

517
00:20:46,868 --> 00:20:48,158
Adam: oh, blame grand designs for this.

518
00:20:48,158 --> 00:20:50,768
But the adaptation everyone has been
making for the last sort of 30 years,

519
00:20:50,768 --> 00:20:53,708
whenever they do a property, is to
replace most of it with glass, isn't it?

520
00:20:53,888 --> 00:20:55,598
enormous glass extensions and things.

521
00:20:55,598 --> 00:20:59,018
So actually, presumably, we, are actually
making things worse quite a lot when we're

522
00:20:59,108 --> 00:21:00,818
Andy: sell your shares in.

523
00:21:01,283 --> 00:21:04,283
Glas and buy shares in
Blind manufacturers.

524
00:21:04,823 --> 00:21:09,113
I think that's Blinds manufacturers in
sun cream are two growth industries,

525
00:21:09,113 --> 00:21:10,433
definitely for the next few decades.

526
00:21:10,613 --> 00:21:13,313
Helen: Am I allowed to buy and
install air con in my house or

527
00:21:13,313 --> 00:21:14,963
does that make baby icebergs cry?

528
00:21:15,233 --> 00:21:16,733
Andy: It's all electricity
demand, isn't it?

529
00:21:16,733 --> 00:21:18,533
But I think if it's extremely hot.

530
00:21:19,133 --> 00:21:20,273
People need air conditioning.

531
00:21:20,393 --> 00:21:24,293
I think saying that we shouldn't
have air conditioning is a bit of an

532
00:21:24,293 --> 00:21:27,023
unusual argument saying you should
s swelter through 40 degree heat.

533
00:21:27,143 --> 00:21:29,873
The thing to do really is ensure that
the electricity you're powering your

534
00:21:29,873 --> 00:21:31,673
air conditioning with is renewable.

535
00:21:32,273 --> 00:21:35,333
Now you might not be able to install
Soler yourself on your own home or

536
00:21:35,333 --> 00:21:41,213
whatever it is, but the idea is that as
we install lots more renewable energy,

537
00:21:41,513 --> 00:21:45,323
that it covers all the growth in demand
and then starts heating into existing.

538
00:21:45,638 --> 00:21:46,268
Fossil demand.

539
00:21:46,628 --> 00:21:47,168
That's, the idea.

540
00:21:47,378 --> 00:21:51,878
Ian: Is it my imagination Andy, or do
I not hear any of this when I, turn

541
00:21:51,878 --> 00:21:53,798
on the television or open a newspaper?

542
00:21:54,518 --> 00:21:55,208
it's lovely.

543
00:21:55,208 --> 00:21:59,558
It's hot is the main
sentiment, is not Oh my God.

544
00:21:59,558 --> 00:22:00,398
You what a scorcher.

545
00:22:00,518 --> 00:22:00,878
Yeah.

546
00:22:01,088 --> 00:22:03,218
Helen: Look at these fruity young
ladies on Brighton breach, I think

547
00:22:03,218 --> 00:22:04,898
is still a lively growth area.

548
00:22:04,988 --> 00:22:05,708
Andy: It certainly is.

549
00:22:05,708 --> 00:22:05,948
Yeah.

550
00:22:06,578 --> 00:22:09,578
I have been looking through various
papers in terms of how they deal with it.

551
00:22:09,773 --> 00:22:13,373
You will get little bits of coverage,
especially if there is a heat wave

552
00:22:13,373 --> 00:22:17,153
inferno in Europe that might kill
British tourists, that gets coverage.

553
00:22:18,473 --> 00:22:20,513
the, bit at the back of the paper
where someone has to write a column

554
00:22:20,513 --> 00:22:23,183
about the weather every day, they
will often mention it because these.

555
00:22:23,753 --> 00:22:25,253
CACs know what they're talking about.

556
00:22:25,253 --> 00:22:25,403
Yeah.

557
00:22:26,363 --> 00:22:30,743
but overall, the editorial line,
certainly of most papers is it's lovely

558
00:22:30,743 --> 00:22:34,253
and hot of, as we mentioned a lot in
this podcast, newspaper readers are

559
00:22:34,253 --> 00:22:36,383
older than average by quite some way.

560
00:22:36,743 --> 00:22:40,583
In fact, the older you get in British
population, the more concerned on

561
00:22:40,583 --> 00:22:42,083
average people are about climate change.

562
00:22:42,233 --> 00:22:44,453
You might think it would be younger
people who are more concerned given

563
00:22:44,453 --> 00:22:48,323
they're gonna have to live with
it for, 50 or 60 years actually.

564
00:22:49,103 --> 00:22:51,173
People who say they're at
least fairly concerned.

565
00:22:51,203 --> 00:22:54,558
It's bigger in the over 60 fives, so it
feels like newspapers are not really, I

566
00:22:54,558 --> 00:22:57,053
Helen: believe that because I already
feel like, I remember summers when

567
00:22:57,053 --> 00:22:58,523
I was young, did not feel like this.

568
00:22:58,523 --> 00:23:01,043
I'm, I, feel like in my lifetime
the weather has become more extreme

569
00:23:01,043 --> 00:23:03,173
and if you've lived for twice
as long as I have, then you must

570
00:23:03,173 --> 00:23:05,033
be thinking, this is weird now.

571
00:23:05,303 --> 00:23:05,453
Yeah.

572
00:23:05,453 --> 00:23:05,903
This is very

573
00:23:05,903 --> 00:23:06,263
Andy: weird.

574
00:23:06,413 --> 00:23:10,193
Someone said to me recently, oh, these,
aren't the calm English summers I remember

575
00:23:10,193 --> 00:23:12,173
from my childhood, they were my age of 37.

576
00:23:13,313 --> 00:23:15,593
that's a very short timescale
for things to have got.

577
00:23:15,998 --> 00:23:16,778
Like this.

578
00:23:16,868 --> 00:23:18,608
Helen: And one of the saddest
things I think in the American

579
00:23:18,608 --> 00:23:21,128
context, particularly the Atlantic
ran peace saying that we've

580
00:23:21,128 --> 00:23:22,838
lost those cool summer evenings.

581
00:23:22,838 --> 00:23:25,238
Like one of the really big things
that's hard to adapt to now is the

582
00:23:25,238 --> 00:23:28,238
fact it's not just 30 during the
day, but it's 24 during the night.

583
00:23:28,298 --> 00:23:28,448
Yeah.

584
00:23:28,508 --> 00:23:30,248
And that's terrible for people sleeping.

585
00:23:30,248 --> 00:23:31,208
It's terrible for animals.

586
00:23:31,328 --> 00:23:32,558
Andy: it's just, it's
terrible for old people.

587
00:23:33,398 --> 00:23:36,043
there was a huge heat wave in
Europe in 2003, which I think.

588
00:23:36,363 --> 00:23:38,763
Led to 70,000 excess deaths.

589
00:23:39,123 --> 00:23:39,273
Wow.

590
00:23:39,273 --> 00:23:42,753
So this, the newspapers tend not to run
pictures of dogs fainting in the heat

591
00:23:42,783 --> 00:23:44,703
or farmers struggling to plant crops.

592
00:23:44,823 --> 00:23:46,468
But that, is quite,

593
00:23:46,648 --> 00:23:48,783
Helen: but that's, that makes it
weirder then, because that's the,

594
00:23:48,783 --> 00:23:50,043
that is the people who buy news.

595
00:23:50,468 --> 00:23:50,708
I, know,

596
00:23:50,763 --> 00:23:51,063
Andy: I know.

597
00:23:51,423 --> 00:23:52,713
It's an, editorial line thing.

598
00:23:52,713 --> 00:23:54,783
And again, most papers have quite decent.

599
00:23:55,373 --> 00:24:00,623
Coverage of the actual news with a
couple of really dishonorable exceptions.

600
00:24:02,123 --> 00:24:04,163
are we going to name them
The Telegraph and the mail?

601
00:24:04,553 --> 00:24:04,823
yeah.

602
00:24:05,573 --> 00:24:07,883
the Telegraph coverage really is go

603
00:24:07,883 --> 00:24:08,723
Helen: and gimme an example.

604
00:24:08,813 --> 00:24:13,283
Andy: I'd love to, that, let's bring it
back to the Arm Magazine private eye.

605
00:24:13,583 --> 00:24:16,853
there was a piece a couple of issues ago
pointing out the sheer number of times

606
00:24:16,853 --> 00:24:20,423
the Telegraph has said, yeah, we got
exactly all of this climate story wrong.

607
00:24:20,603 --> 00:24:21,983
We're very happy to correct it.

608
00:24:22,403 --> 00:24:23,603
They printed a story saying.

609
00:24:24,398 --> 00:24:26,948
The UK is planning 10 times
the number of Soler panels.

610
00:24:26,948 --> 00:24:28,148
It actually is right.

611
00:24:28,148 --> 00:24:31,238
Being out by an order of magnitude
is not good when you're a reporter.

612
00:24:31,958 --> 00:24:34,718
they claimed renewables were responsible
for the big Spanish blackout.

613
00:24:34,718 --> 00:24:37,118
It was actually due to power
plants of all kinds, not

614
00:24:37,118 --> 00:24:38,498
managing their voltage properly.

615
00:24:39,248 --> 00:24:40,958
the all, I have a new
one for you if you like.

616
00:24:40,983 --> 00:24:41,073
Yes.

617
00:24:41,463 --> 00:24:45,213
In May they printed a graph from a
really embarrassing outfit called

618
00:24:45,213 --> 00:24:46,953
the Renewable Energy Foundation.

619
00:24:46,983 --> 00:24:49,083
They're actually incredibly
hostile to renewable energy.

620
00:24:49,263 --> 00:24:51,603
Always standard name yourself after
the thing you're trying to destroy.

621
00:24:51,963 --> 00:24:55,041
And that graph, it claimed that
40% of the electricity is renewable

622
00:24:55,041 --> 00:24:57,051
subsidy, of one kind or another.

623
00:24:57,411 --> 00:24:58,581
Obviously, that's not true.

624
00:24:58,971 --> 00:25:00,801
it's between six and 8%.

625
00:25:00,891 --> 00:25:02,901
I feel like even if it were
true, I'd be in favor of it, but

626
00:25:02,901 --> 00:25:03,291
the point is.

627
00:25:03,291 --> 00:25:04,011
It's not true.

628
00:25:04,191 --> 00:25:04,671
Yeah.

629
00:25:04,881 --> 00:25:06,261
Really important thing
to drive home there.

630
00:25:06,681 --> 00:25:08,901
Only a few days ago we had
a headline in the Telegraph.

631
00:25:08,901 --> 00:25:13,041
Heat Waves will Trigger Net Zero Meltdown,
which is where all the technologies that

632
00:25:13,041 --> 00:25:16,311
are being installed to try and deal with
climate change and take the edge off it.

633
00:25:16,311 --> 00:25:18,351
Actually, they'll all stop
working if it gets warm.

634
00:25:18,726 --> 00:25:19,266
They, won't,

635
00:25:21,306 --> 00:25:24,396
Helen: although the Guardian does
notoriously have an air cooling system

636
00:25:24,396 --> 00:25:27,486
in its offices, which packs up when
it gets above a certain tempera.

637
00:25:29,016 --> 00:25:29,046
Okay.

638
00:25:29,046 --> 00:25:30,066
Which is a bit, I think this is

639
00:25:30,066 --> 00:25:31,566
Ian: what we call anecdotal evidence.

640
00:25:31,686 --> 00:25:31,746
Yeah.

641
00:25:31,746 --> 00:25:32,376
No, I,

642
00:25:32,376 --> 00:25:33,876
Helen: I, I do still think
that climate change is real.

643
00:25:34,836 --> 00:25:38,016
why look to you for Andy is, it,
is somebody to slightly cheer me up

644
00:25:38,016 --> 00:25:41,526
that we're not all just going to doom
to fry like bacon in a frying pan.

645
00:25:42,986 --> 00:25:43,256
Andy: Yeah.

646
00:25:43,256 --> 00:25:44,096
Yeah, I'll have a go.

647
00:25:45,266 --> 00:25:46,526
we know it's gonna get warmer.

648
00:25:46,616 --> 00:25:50,036
Like the amount the world is
emitting is about 40 billion tons

649
00:25:50,036 --> 00:25:52,586
a year of carbon dioxide, which
is not something any of us can.

650
00:25:52,901 --> 00:25:57,641
No one can really compute that, and
until it comes down to a net of zero

651
00:25:57,641 --> 00:26:00,761
that is being emitted, that means
either we're emitting nothing or we're

652
00:26:00,761 --> 00:26:04,331
emitting some, but we're using natural
zincs or carbon capture to soak up

653
00:26:04,331 --> 00:26:06,671
what we are emitting a net of zero.

654
00:26:06,731 --> 00:26:07,541
Then it stops.

655
00:26:07,541 --> 00:26:08,591
It stops getting worse.

656
00:26:08,711 --> 00:26:11,441
At the moment, obviously emissions
are still rising a little bit, so it's

657
00:26:11,441 --> 00:26:13,391
getting worse, a little bit faster.

658
00:26:13,781 --> 00:26:14,171
I suppose.

659
00:26:14,171 --> 00:26:19,061
The good news is that we have solutions
for about 75% of emissions at the moment.

660
00:26:19,451 --> 00:26:21,431
The hugest sectors to.

661
00:26:21,776 --> 00:26:25,346
Take fossil fuels out of that,
that solutions really do exist

662
00:26:25,346 --> 00:26:30,476
for are electricity, ground
transportation, heating and cooling.

663
00:26:30,476 --> 00:26:33,206
Our homes at about half of industrial use.

664
00:26:33,506 --> 00:26:37,016
You can easily do it with renewable,
renewably sourced electricity.

665
00:26:37,046 --> 00:26:39,176
So the solutions do exist.

666
00:26:39,176 --> 00:26:43,046
It's now really a matter of politically
finding the, the will and the.

667
00:26:43,826 --> 00:26:46,136
the acceleration to roll
them out as fast as possible.

668
00:26:46,156 --> 00:26:47,236
There are still a couple that are tricky.

669
00:26:47,236 --> 00:26:49,996
Aviation shipping, no one's
invented a plane that can

670
00:26:49,996 --> 00:26:52,036
fly 5,000 miles on batteries.

671
00:26:52,142 --> 00:26:54,302
Ian: carbon capture
doesn't yet exist, is it?

672
00:26:54,542 --> 00:26:58,322
Andy: Carbon capture will need
to scale up a huge amount.

673
00:26:58,802 --> 00:27:00,362
Larger than a small pothole.

674
00:27:01,207 --> 00:27:01,497
Yeah.

675
00:27:01,622 --> 00:27:05,514
It's, it's going to have to become
a much bigger industry than it is.

676
00:27:05,595 --> 00:27:07,275
but I thought these
essential technologies isn't

677
00:27:07,875 --> 00:27:08,475
Ian: really

678
00:27:08,475 --> 00:27:08,865
Andy: there.

679
00:27:08,865 --> 00:27:12,255
Is it Only, at the moment it captures
a, I don't want it not to be there.

680
00:27:12,255 --> 00:27:14,385
I'm just saying I want to be realistic.

681
00:27:14,925 --> 00:27:17,415
At the moment, it captures a
very, small amount of emissions.

682
00:27:17,686 --> 00:27:21,556
if you're holding a tray of glasses,
the analogy is, it's much easier.

683
00:27:21,907 --> 00:27:24,577
not to drop the glasses in the
first place than to say, I'm going

684
00:27:24,577 --> 00:27:28,297
to invent a terrific dust pan
brush if I can, put it that way.

685
00:27:28,747 --> 00:27:28,897
Yeah.

686
00:27:28,897 --> 00:27:30,097
And solutions exist.

687
00:27:30,217 --> 00:27:31,477
It's, but it's not cheery.

688
00:27:31,927 --> 00:27:34,417
No, But the, the cheery bit
is, solutions exist for the

689
00:27:34,867 --> 00:27:37,027
overwhelming majority of this stuff.

690
00:27:37,269 --> 00:27:39,549
Helen: And, Ian is our old
Sparky, our columnist who looks

691
00:27:39,549 --> 00:27:40,389
at all this sort of stuff.

692
00:27:40,389 --> 00:27:41,769
Is he on the same page?

693
00:27:42,609 --> 00:27:44,499
Ian: not entirely, but that's all right.

694
00:27:45,009 --> 00:27:50,229
but he's very good on the,
myth of carbon capture and, the

695
00:27:50,229 --> 00:27:51,459
fact that it would be lovely.

696
00:27:51,694 --> 00:27:55,024
When it's, available to
work, but it isn't now.

697
00:27:55,024 --> 00:27:58,654
And it really would be worth considering
that, he's an energy specialist and

698
00:27:58,654 --> 00:28:02,704
he tells you, about what's going wrong
and what's going the wider point's

699
00:28:02,704 --> 00:28:07,864
about, and I'm particularly interested
in selling the message of, he's, he's

700
00:28:07,864 --> 00:28:09,364
very much aware of climate change,

701
00:28:09,844 --> 00:28:10,054
Adam: right?

702
00:28:10,294 --> 00:28:12,004
Ian: No, we are not in that territory.

703
00:28:12,184 --> 00:28:15,439
What I like to see is, there any way.

704
00:28:15,794 --> 00:28:19,274
Of doing anything about this in a way
that you can take people with you.

705
00:28:19,364 --> 00:28:22,094
It's your point about
Starmer and politics.

706
00:28:22,184 --> 00:28:26,894
It's a lovely idea, that you could be
pure in your beliefs about this, but if

707
00:28:26,894 --> 00:28:29,954
no one wants to come with you, how do

708
00:28:29,954 --> 00:28:30,344
Andy: you do it?

709
00:28:30,854 --> 00:28:32,714
there was a consensus on this politically.

710
00:28:32,714 --> 00:28:35,774
Very much I think probably before it
started getting to the sharp end of

711
00:28:35,774 --> 00:28:40,394
actually having to do it, whereas now the
conservative form have really rode back.

712
00:28:40,734 --> 00:28:44,004
They're now saying, let's not
effectively, and let's not try on this.

713
00:28:44,004 --> 00:28:47,004
Which is, I don't know
if that message works.

714
00:28:47,004 --> 00:28:49,434
I think the important thing is
for it not to seem like it's being

715
00:28:49,434 --> 00:28:50,964
imposed on people, but we had

716
00:28:50,964 --> 00:28:54,954
Ian: a political change in that
Cameron was, managed to sell the green

717
00:28:54,954 --> 00:28:56,874
conservative and Boris of all people.

718
00:28:56,994 --> 00:28:57,114
Yeah.

719
00:28:57,954 --> 00:29:00,084
took the public with him, the idea.

720
00:29:00,084 --> 00:29:02,274
Oh, if Boris says the green agenda's good.

721
00:29:02,484 --> 00:29:03,174
maybe it is.

722
00:29:03,414 --> 00:29:04,279
Yeah, maybe that's all right.

723
00:29:04,844 --> 00:29:05,954
And that was lost.

724
00:29:06,014 --> 00:29:09,164
Andy: Just to counter the kind of
really bad report card that you

725
00:29:09,164 --> 00:29:10,124
had in the last section, Helen.

726
00:29:10,544 --> 00:29:13,544
The climate and environment stuff is
one area where particularly the British

727
00:29:13,544 --> 00:29:18,824
government have been taking a lead
and Ed Milliband, ed Milli Band's,

728
00:29:18,824 --> 00:29:22,544
unlike a hero reinvention, but he
spent years on this before becoming the

729
00:29:22,544 --> 00:29:26,114
minister at the Department of Energy
Security and Net Zero and pretty much.

730
00:29:26,484 --> 00:29:30,744
Every day, every week since the election,
there has been an announcement, which

731
00:29:30,744 --> 00:29:34,554
has been broadly welcomed by industry,
by green groups, by, by all sorts

732
00:29:34,554 --> 00:29:37,104
of people who are normally really
unhappy about all sorts of stuff,

733
00:29:37,134 --> 00:29:38,424
Ian: but not in editorials.

734
00:29:38,484 --> 00:29:41,244
In the editorials, I. Everything
is Ed Milliman's fault.

735
00:29:41,664 --> 00:29:41,964
Yes.

736
00:29:41,964 --> 00:29:44,994
And he's about to be sacked
permanently, but he never is,

737
00:29:44,994 --> 00:29:45,144
Andy: he?

738
00:29:45,204 --> 00:29:48,294
No, it's, one of the things
ki has been really consistent

739
00:29:48,294 --> 00:29:50,364
on is this stuff matters.

740
00:29:50,424 --> 00:29:52,104
It is a big growth opportunity.

741
00:29:52,284 --> 00:29:54,024
you talk about wanting
to get to 2% growth.

742
00:29:54,534 --> 00:29:58,164
China is rolling out electric
technologies and green technologies,

743
00:29:58,164 --> 00:30:00,389
Soler, EVs, all of this.

744
00:30:01,059 --> 00:30:03,639
The main bureau of the Chinese
Communist Party are not woke.

745
00:30:05,169 --> 00:30:07,959
they're doing it because they wanna
sell this stuff to the entire world.

746
00:30:08,109 --> 00:30:11,079
Happily, it'll take the edge of
climate change, but that's, not

747
00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:11,694
the only reason they're doing it.

748
00:30:11,694 --> 00:30:11,934
That seems like

749
00:30:11,934 --> 00:30:12,399
Adam: quite a big turnaround.

750
00:30:12,429 --> 00:30:14,529
'cause the excuse that people always
made was all, there's no point in us

751
00:30:14,529 --> 00:30:17,229
doing anything towards net zero 'cause
China's still pumping out all of this.

752
00:30:17,619 --> 00:30:21,039
It surprises me that they do seem
to be accelerating the green stuff.

753
00:30:21,099 --> 00:30:23,709
Andy: China still gets a huge
amount of its electricity from coal.

754
00:30:23,949 --> 00:30:27,879
They're still unlike almost everywhere
else in the world, building coal plants.

755
00:30:28,089 --> 00:30:29,529
But they're also building.

756
00:30:30,084 --> 00:30:32,904
Ginormous amounts of Soler and wind power.

757
00:30:33,474 --> 00:30:35,124
truly unnaturally huge amounts.

758
00:30:35,424 --> 00:30:38,364
And now these days, half the
cars in China come with a plug.

759
00:30:38,604 --> 00:30:39,504
10 years ago it was.

760
00:30:39,549 --> 00:30:40,839
A handful of percent.

761
00:30:40,899 --> 00:30:42,219
So the change is very rapid.

762
00:30:42,489 --> 00:30:43,839
And I suppose that's the
other positive thing.

763
00:30:44,439 --> 00:30:49,329
In 2012, the UK got 42% of its
electricity from burning coal.

764
00:30:49,569 --> 00:30:51,039
We've just shut down our last coal plant.

765
00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:53,979
When these things do
change, they can change.

766
00:30:54,369 --> 00:30:54,579
Yeah.

767
00:30:54,609 --> 00:30:54,999
Yeah.

768
00:30:55,329 --> 00:31:00,849
And, Labour's entire policy in power
has been to, it's a two-pronged thing.

769
00:31:00,849 --> 00:31:03,549
Firstly, they want to clean
up the electricity supply.

770
00:31:03,729 --> 00:31:06,849
'cause at the moment we get about a
third of electricity from burning gas.

771
00:31:07,089 --> 00:31:08,469
Secondly, they want to.

772
00:31:08,829 --> 00:31:12,429
Change the uses so that everything we
use, whether that's heating our homes

773
00:31:12,669 --> 00:31:16,389
with heat pumps, driving around electric
cars, comes from that clean electricity.

774
00:31:16,839 --> 00:31:20,649
So Chris Stark, who's the head of the
Clean Power Mission, has said, this is not

775
00:31:20,649 --> 00:31:23,649
a mad sprint to 2030 getting clean power.

776
00:31:23,859 --> 00:31:25,239
This is the warmup for a marathon.

777
00:31:25,269 --> 00:31:26,529
We're going to need a lot more power.

778
00:31:27,039 --> 00:31:31,029
We want it to be clean, and cleanly
sourced, which seems a much more sellable

779
00:31:31,029 --> 00:31:32,649
approach than we're all going to die.

780
00:31:33,789 --> 00:31:35,259
Yes, absolutely.

781
00:31:35,259 --> 00:31:35,499
Yeah.

782
00:31:35,499 --> 00:31:37,899
Yeah, it's, it is weird reading.

783
00:31:38,229 --> 00:31:41,709
People who you think would be
sort of solutions oriented saying,

784
00:31:42,339 --> 00:31:43,389
there's no point in doing anything.

785
00:31:43,419 --> 00:31:44,169
Oh, Trump's got back in.

786
00:31:44,169 --> 00:31:45,099
There's no point in doing anything.

787
00:31:45,609 --> 00:31:45,879
but that's

788
00:31:45,879 --> 00:31:48,129
Helen: because that's a sort
of millary tendency, isn't it?

789
00:31:48,129 --> 00:31:50,919
That's the sort of same impulse
of people who boast about going

790
00:31:50,919 --> 00:31:52,209
off grid or whatever it might be.

791
00:31:52,209 --> 00:31:55,119
Yeah, like a kind of that, like the
Degrowth thing I think is just a,

792
00:31:55,119 --> 00:31:59,379
particular psychology among a certain set
of people, but it's not widely shared.

793
00:31:59,469 --> 00:32:01,419
Andy: I would say that
Doomers and net zero.

794
00:32:01,419 --> 00:32:04,734
Skeptics are two hands of the same glove.

795
00:32:04,824 --> 00:32:05,214
Hang on.

796
00:32:05,214 --> 00:32:06,219
That's not, I believe that George

797
00:32:06,219 --> 00:32:08,664
Helen: Galloway line is two cheeks
of the same R, so there you go.

798
00:32:08,664 --> 00:32:08,724
Yeah.

799
00:32:10,104 --> 00:32:10,374
Andy: Yeah.

800
00:32:10,584 --> 00:32:12,384
they both say, let's not
do anything about this.

801
00:32:12,384 --> 00:32:13,044
There's no point.

802
00:32:13,094 --> 00:32:15,434
So there are lots of things, policies
that have been announced, things

803
00:32:15,434 --> 00:32:18,554
like new houses or to have Soler
power and heat pumps, which will mean

804
00:32:18,554 --> 00:32:22,724
they're, no, they're low or not zero
bill houses, but low bill houses.

805
00:32:23,174 --> 00:32:25,454
That feels like the sort of thing
you can sell to the electorate.

806
00:32:25,934 --> 00:32:26,354
Oh, my house has

807
00:32:26,354 --> 00:32:28,274
Helen: got Soler panels 'cause it's
a new build and that, I'll tell you

808
00:32:28,274 --> 00:32:31,274
what, when all those energy price
prices happen, post invasion of

809
00:32:31,274 --> 00:32:33,074
Ukraine, I, yeah, I really felt it.

810
00:32:33,074 --> 00:32:34,604
It was really, good.

811
00:32:34,604 --> 00:32:37,744
Andy: So that I think is the challenge
by the next election is to say,

812
00:32:37,804 --> 00:32:39,694
right here are the concrete results.

813
00:32:39,824 --> 00:32:41,354
Helen: The other thing I thought was
interesting, we had a report in the

814
00:32:41,354 --> 00:32:45,104
magazine by fluky, which was about the
fact that King Charles is, must have keen

815
00:32:45,104 --> 00:32:48,704
on this stuff and therefore rather, said
Miller Milliband, which must be cheery.

816
00:32:48,704 --> 00:32:49,274
Fred Milliband.

817
00:32:49,304 --> 00:32:49,364
Yeah.

818
00:32:49,424 --> 00:32:52,214
Andy: It's nice for him to have
a friend anywhere this, in this

819
00:32:52,214 --> 00:32:53,594
incredibly hostile environment.

820
00:32:53,594 --> 00:32:53,985
He finds himself.

821
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:54,194
Himself.

822
00:32:54,194 --> 00:32:54,949
Is that the king or

823
00:32:55,209 --> 00:32:55,629
Ian: Allman?

824
00:32:56,589 --> 00:32:57,789
Helen: That's probably
what they talk about.

825
00:32:57,819 --> 00:32:57,879
Yeah.

826
00:32:57,879 --> 00:32:58,749
Maybe they, yeah.

827
00:32:58,749 --> 00:33:01,449
Unfortunately, I think the report said
that Ki Star tried to muscle in on this

828
00:33:01,449 --> 00:33:03,309
and was he wasn't allowed to be friends.

829
00:33:04,179 --> 00:33:04,959
He complain about, oh, that's the idea

830
00:33:04,959 --> 00:33:05,469
Adam: of them exchange.

831
00:33:05,469 --> 00:33:05,649
Yes.

832
00:33:05,919 --> 00:33:07,059
my brother's awful as well.

833
00:33:07,059 --> 00:33:08,034
I don't get on with him at all.

834
00:33:13,179 --> 00:33:18,009
Andy: Let's turn to something even
more cheerful than a heat pump.

835
00:33:18,009 --> 00:33:18,579
Not possible.

836
00:33:18,824 --> 00:33:19,514
Glastonbury.

837
00:33:20,084 --> 00:33:21,224
Adam, you were there.

838
00:33:21,344 --> 00:33:21,464
I-

839
00:33:21,644 --> 00:33:26,264
Adam: I was there on my sofa watching Pulp
and enjoying the Red Arrows going over.

840
00:33:26,264 --> 00:33:30,854
Yeah, no, I, was nowhere near it at
all, but the sofa was the place to be

841
00:33:30,854 --> 00:33:34,484
where you watching the livestream now,
everyone was expecting the contentious

842
00:33:34,484 --> 00:33:38,594
bit to be kneecap, who no lesser person
than the prime minister and the leader

843
00:33:38,594 --> 00:33:42,974
of the opposition had demanded, should
not be either put on stage platformed

844
00:33:43,034 --> 00:33:45,074
at Glastonbury or broadcast on the BBC.

845
00:33:45,074 --> 00:33:45,704
So the BBC.

846
00:33:46,569 --> 00:33:50,259
This is of course because one
member of the, Irish band, Kneecap,

847
00:33:50,289 --> 00:33:53,769
is facing terrorism charges
over holding up a, I believe, a

848
00:33:53,769 --> 00:33:56,289
Hezbollah flag at a recent concert.

849
00:33:56,409 --> 00:33:59,979
That being, of course, a prescribed
terrorist organization, no lesser

850
00:33:59,979 --> 00:34:02,259
person than the Prime Minister, and
in fact, leader of the opposition as

851
00:34:02,259 --> 00:34:05,169
well, said that Vassey should not be
platforming this band and the BBC should

852
00:34:05,169 --> 00:34:06,639
certainly not be broadcasting their set.

853
00:34:06,639 --> 00:34:09,579
So the BBC very carefully decided not
to put them out on the live stream.

854
00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:10,779
They were gonna put 'em on a delay.

855
00:34:11,169 --> 00:34:13,569
And have them, broadcast later
on, but then a chance to edit

856
00:34:13,569 --> 00:34:14,409
it out, anything terrible.

857
00:34:14,409 --> 00:34:17,469
And while they were getting on with that,
the band that were on directly before them

858
00:34:17,469 --> 00:34:21,849
on stage who go by the appalling name of
Bob Villain, which is just, I was gonna

859
00:34:21,849 --> 00:34:24,219
say the worst pun in pop, but actually
the Beatles take that, don't they?

860
00:34:25,059 --> 00:34:25,629
but pretty awful.

861
00:34:25,629 --> 00:34:26,229
Anyway, Bob, my

862
00:34:26,229 --> 00:34:28,509
Helen: opinion is on the story changed
when I found out that both members

863
00:34:28,509 --> 00:34:31,869
of the band Bob Villain, are known
as Bobby Villain spelled one with a

864
00:34:31,869 --> 00:34:34,689
y and one with an IE. And I thought,
what's, what, are we doing here?

865
00:34:34,899 --> 00:34:35,334
no, no

866
00:34:35,334 --> 00:34:36,129
Andy: inconsistent branding.

867
00:34:36,169 --> 00:34:36,229
I

868
00:34:36,614 --> 00:34:37,279
Helen: know, I don't agree.

869
00:34:37,609 --> 00:34:38,959
Andy: That's the subeditor's objection.

870
00:34:38,959 --> 00:34:39,109
Really?

871
00:34:39,109 --> 00:34:40,459
That's, am I supposed to talk apart?

872
00:34:40,579 --> 00:34:40,939
Adam: Which one?

873
00:34:41,119 --> 00:34:41,899
Which Mr. Villain.

874
00:34:41,899 --> 00:34:44,209
So Bob Villain were meant
to play before Kneecap.

875
00:34:44,299 --> 00:34:45,469
They did play before kneecap.

876
00:34:45,829 --> 00:34:49,549
and as part of their set, they chanted,
both from the river to the sea, that very

877
00:34:49,549 --> 00:34:54,019
controversial slogan about, what's going
on in Israel and Palestine at the moment.

878
00:34:54,289 --> 00:34:56,869
And also death, to the IDF.

879
00:34:57,404 --> 00:35:01,214
Not as has been reported in quote marks
on the front of several newspapers.

880
00:35:01,424 --> 00:35:02,894
something, the mail on Sunday
and the mail went with it.

881
00:35:03,134 --> 00:35:04,214
Death to Israelis.

882
00:35:04,274 --> 00:35:06,134
They're very specific in what they said.

883
00:35:06,134 --> 00:35:09,434
It was the IDF, which is of course
the Israeli Army who are engaged

884
00:35:09,434 --> 00:35:10,814
in a war on several fronts.

885
00:35:10,814 --> 00:35:11,234
At the moment.

886
00:35:11,294 --> 00:35:14,909
When you say this was
broadcast... is this on BBC One?

887
00:35:15,059 --> 00:35:18,179
Not on any of the BBC channels that
you think of as channels at all.

888
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:18,659
Okay.

889
00:35:18,779 --> 00:35:22,439
Nor was it clipped and added to the
Glastonbury channel on the iPlayer

890
00:35:22,469 --> 00:35:23,609
as an option for you to watch.

891
00:35:23,669 --> 00:35:26,219
This was literally a live stream,
which was going out where they

892
00:35:26,219 --> 00:35:27,449
just had cameras trained on.

893
00:35:27,759 --> 00:35:29,169
All the different stages at Glastonbury.

894
00:35:29,169 --> 00:35:31,359
'cause there's 400 b BBC staff
or something filming pretty

895
00:35:31,359 --> 00:35:32,529
much everything that goes on.

896
00:35:33,219 --> 00:35:34,989
and this was effectively what
used to be called the Red

897
00:35:34,989 --> 00:35:36,129
button, but is now the iPlayer.

898
00:35:36,279 --> 00:35:37,239
It was going out live.

899
00:35:37,269 --> 00:35:37,779
I understand.

900
00:35:37,779 --> 00:35:41,139
This is the equivalent of Radio
Four Longwave doing the test

901
00:35:41,139 --> 00:35:45,339
matches pretty much that you
Yeah, For our older listeners

902
00:35:45,489 --> 00:35:46,269
who were probably the only people

903
00:35:46,269 --> 00:35:47,919
who can afford to close
Glastonbury anyway,

904
00:35:48,369 --> 00:35:52,059
Andy: and Brian Johnston was always
talking about, the IDF on that, wasn't he?

905
00:35:52,059 --> 00:35:52,119
Yeah.

906
00:35:52,359 --> 00:35:53,919
Sorry, that's one for much

907
00:35:53,919 --> 00:35:54,219
Helen: older.

908
00:35:54,219 --> 00:35:55,339
Let's, it's a deep cut.

909
00:35:55,359 --> 00:35:58,659
Adam: Interestingly, it's still not
available, but the action that was taken.

910
00:35:59,049 --> 00:36:01,449
On Monday, the BBC announced that
with hindsight, we should have pulled

911
00:36:01,449 --> 00:36:02,559
the stream during the performance.

912
00:36:02,559 --> 00:36:04,059
And we regret that this did not happen.

913
00:36:04,299 --> 00:36:08,754
But what they did do on the day was
to, Immediately say that they wouldn't

914
00:36:08,754 --> 00:36:12,144
put the, a recording of the performance
out as a kind of clipped thing on

915
00:36:12,144 --> 00:36:13,494
iPlayer that people could tune into.

916
00:36:13,884 --> 00:36:16,554
I discovered that you cannot see that
on the b BBC anyway, where you can

917
00:36:16,554 --> 00:36:19,824
see it, where you can see the chant
of death, through the IDF is on the

918
00:36:19,824 --> 00:36:22,884
Daily Telegraph website who've got it
running constantly on a loop, which,

919
00:36:23,064 --> 00:36:25,794
which was well saying how, just how
disgusting and appalling this is.

920
00:36:26,004 --> 00:36:28,734
Ian: And the organizers themselves
apologized immediately and said

921
00:36:28,734 --> 00:36:29,604
it shouldn't have happened.

922
00:36:29,844 --> 00:36:32,754
So it wasn't just the BBC
who then immediately took no.

923
00:36:33,024 --> 00:36:33,324
Emily

924
00:36:33,324 --> 00:36:35,514
Adam: Evis, who is now in charge of
Glastonbury said it was against all

925
00:36:35,514 --> 00:36:38,694
of the principles and everything that
Glastonbury holds dear, which is slightly

926
00:36:38,694 --> 00:36:42,294
disingenuous 'cause this is not something
that, Bob Villain, who I must admit, I

927
00:36:42,294 --> 00:36:44,844
was not very aware of before that, but
apparently is not something that they,

928
00:36:45,354 --> 00:36:48,864
that is uncharacteristic for them, is they
do make political statements like this.

929
00:36:48,864 --> 00:36:52,434
And in fact, those specific chants
at various gigs that they've been to.

930
00:36:53,034 --> 00:36:56,874
The BBC also are slightly in
trouble, I've discovered in trying

931
00:36:56,874 --> 00:36:57,684
to detach themselves from this.

932
00:36:57,684 --> 00:37:00,114
'cause they have to a certain
extent champion Bob Villain.

933
00:37:00,324 --> 00:37:02,874
I had a look, they've done
sessions on Radio Six music.

934
00:37:03,084 --> 00:37:06,084
They curated a playlist
for, the, for BBC sounds.

935
00:37:06,084 --> 00:37:08,394
They've also been, live
on Radio one as well.

936
00:37:08,394 --> 00:37:11,244
So there is, it's not as if they
came entirely out of nowhere

937
00:37:11,244 --> 00:37:14,454
except to people like us who maybe,
don't follow this kind of music.

938
00:37:15,954 --> 00:37:18,474
there, there, is definitely some
trouble ahead still on this one.

939
00:37:18,474 --> 00:37:19,164
For the BBC,

940
00:37:19,374 --> 00:37:21,414
Helen: I just don't know how the
BBC can be held responsible for

941
00:37:21,414 --> 00:37:25,914
the fact that rappers have strong
political views and that they

942
00:37:25,914 --> 00:37:27,114
will express them in their music.

943
00:37:27,264 --> 00:37:30,084
This is the bit I just don't really
understand with this, I don't think,

944
00:37:30,264 --> 00:37:33,954
personally don't think the death of the
IDF chant is inherently antisemitic.

945
00:37:34,164 --> 00:37:36,864
I think the bit, when he talked about
working for a record company boss and

946
00:37:36,864 --> 00:37:38,424
he said, we've all made compromises.

947
00:37:38,424 --> 00:37:40,164
We've all worked for fucking Zionists.

948
00:37:40,584 --> 00:37:42,984
That's a bit more is that
just a code word for Jew?

949
00:37:43,176 --> 00:37:45,816
and this has come up and lots of
black artists saying that the record

950
00:37:45,816 --> 00:37:48,456
industry is run by Jews and they
just take advantage of black artists.

951
00:37:48,546 --> 00:37:51,066
this is a fairly well
known antisemitic drumbeat.

952
00:37:51,396 --> 00:37:53,976
So I'm not going to entirely defend him.

953
00:37:54,396 --> 00:37:54,546
No.

954
00:37:54,546 --> 00:38:00,546
But I also think it's tasteless, but it's
legitimate political speech to my mind.

955
00:38:00,546 --> 00:38:03,526
I. And I don't see why the BBC
actually should apologize for it.

956
00:38:03,586 --> 00:38:03,736
And

957
00:38:03,736 --> 00:38:06,136
Adam: the people who are most outraged
about it are of course the other media

958
00:38:06,136 --> 00:38:10,216
outlets who've been running, a campaign
over the last year for absolute free

959
00:38:10,216 --> 00:38:12,696
speech for all, and particularly equating
it with the case of Lucy Connolly.

960
00:38:12,886 --> 00:38:16,186
Absolute directly The Telegraph
was saying on, on Monday.

961
00:38:16,186 --> 00:38:17,776
In fact, they were saying it was worse.

962
00:38:17,776 --> 00:38:19,331
Lucy Cony, of course,
is the other definition

963
00:38:19,331 --> 00:38:21,006
Helen: is the person who
tweeted during the riot saying

964
00:38:21,006 --> 00:38:22,626
Set fire to refugee hotels,

965
00:38:22,671 --> 00:38:25,791
Adam: Toby Young, I saw, came up with
the extraordinary, Toby Young of the Free

966
00:38:25,791 --> 00:38:30,351
speech, alliance or foundation of the
everyone look at Toby Young organization.

967
00:38:30,351 --> 00:38:34,431
Basically, essentially, said at
least Lucy Connolly caveated what

968
00:38:34,431 --> 00:38:36,681
she said by adding for all iCare.

969
00:38:36,946 --> 00:38:38,656
Which apparently is the thing
that makes a difference.

970
00:38:38,656 --> 00:38:40,966
Now, if you're calling for people to be
burned alive, it takes these backsies in.

971
00:38:41,116 --> 00:38:41,236
Yes.

972
00:38:42,376 --> 00:38:44,416
Helen: I just wish people would have
these arguments and they'd just say

973
00:38:44,416 --> 00:38:47,146
what they think of the actual speech
rather than in reference to some other

974
00:38:47,146 --> 00:38:48,826
speech that they disagree or agree with.

975
00:38:48,826 --> 00:38:51,586
Don't you think the reason to
crack down on death the IDF

976
00:38:51,586 --> 00:38:53,236
is as incitement to violence?

977
00:38:53,236 --> 00:38:56,836
So if that's what you think it is
and make that case, I don't need to

978
00:38:56,836 --> 00:38:59,866
have a, or you can say this about X,
but you can't say it about Y. 'cause

979
00:38:59,866 --> 00:39:02,626
every, otherwise the conversation's
just become incredibly circular.

980
00:39:02,836 --> 00:39:03,916
Ian: But I can see.

981
00:39:04,206 --> 00:39:07,851
The point of Glastonbury, originally
set up by hippies, it was CND.

982
00:39:08,591 --> 00:39:11,561
Calling for other people's
deaths isn't usually their thing.

983
00:39:11,981 --> 00:39:14,411
Peace, love, not death.

984
00:39:14,471 --> 00:39:17,471
Life on the whole is usually it.

985
00:39:17,741 --> 00:39:20,171
And there, there are very few
acts where people come on and

986
00:39:20,171 --> 00:39:21,551
say, death to the Red Army.

987
00:39:22,176 --> 00:39:23,106
I haven't heard them.

988
00:39:23,169 --> 00:39:23,469
Andy: so.

989
00:39:23,469 --> 00:39:27,369
Adam is the problem that now all of
Glasbury has to be completely compliant

990
00:39:27,369 --> 00:39:30,549
with B, B, C rules about everything,
if they're live streaming it, and

991
00:39:30,549 --> 00:39:32,559
that Glasbury is now effectively.

992
00:39:32,964 --> 00:39:33,834
The same as well.

993
00:39:33,834 --> 00:39:36,174
Adam: Bury is effectively
a, b, C co-production.

994
00:39:36,174 --> 00:39:39,624
Now, it is as much a TV event
as it is Emily Elvis's thing

995
00:39:39,624 --> 00:39:40,974
in some fields in, Somerset.

996
00:39:41,454 --> 00:39:42,654
they are very much involved in it.

997
00:39:42,654 --> 00:39:44,514
They are the main become
media sponsor of it.

998
00:39:44,784 --> 00:39:45,774
They may lose that, of course.

999
00:39:45,774 --> 00:39:47,724
They might just say, okay,
someone else can do it.

1000
00:39:47,724 --> 00:39:48,864
Channel four did it for a few years.

1001
00:39:48,864 --> 00:39:52,374
They don't have the same resources
that the BBC's got to, plug into it.

1002
00:39:52,614 --> 00:39:52,704
it.

1003
00:39:53,494 --> 00:39:56,464
The same newspapers who are, busy
condemning the BBC for the coverage

1004
00:39:56,464 --> 00:40:00,154
of Glastonbury, all leading with ni
nice shots of, of, rod Stewart and

1005
00:40:00,154 --> 00:40:01,684
Ronnie Wood on stage together as well.

1006
00:40:01,954 --> 00:40:05,524
everyone gets quite a lot of content out
of the, BBC being there at Glastonbury.

1007
00:40:05,704 --> 00:40:07,264
It's really DI mean in practicalities

1008
00:40:07,264 --> 00:40:09,664
Ian: and can I just say that
whoever was live streaming that.

1009
00:40:10,404 --> 00:40:15,534
As soon as Rod hit the first button
note, which was very early on at the set,

1010
00:40:15,774 --> 00:40:19,464
I think there's a reasonable case for
pulling it just to cut away completely.

1011
00:40:19,464 --> 00:40:19,764
That's

1012
00:40:19,764 --> 00:40:20,184
Helen: it.

1013
00:40:20,184 --> 00:40:20,814
I would've done it.

1014
00:40:20,814 --> 00:40:22,734
To be honest, the inside, I
saw that outfit with the Lacey

1015
00:40:22,734 --> 00:40:24,054
blouse and the boot cut jeans.

1016
00:40:24,054 --> 00:40:26,604
I thought, who is Rod's
stylist these days?

1017
00:40:26,604 --> 00:40:27,654
And I also think extraordinary.

1018
00:40:27,654 --> 00:40:28,319
Ian: And you can.

1019
00:40:28,774 --> 00:40:34,204
So I'm wrong that I'm sailing is
a coded message about boats, and

1020
00:40:34,444 --> 00:40:39,004
is part of a reform agenda that I
do not want to have thrust down.

1021
00:40:39,934 --> 00:40:42,754
Helen: I, I, dunno, I just strongly
feel there should be latitude for

1022
00:40:42,814 --> 00:40:46,204
artists of all descriptions to have
really weird and terrible opinions.

1023
00:40:46,204 --> 00:40:47,944
Adam: Latitude is a completely
different part, isn't it?

1024
00:40:47,944 --> 00:40:50,464
Oh, so I knew you were gonna Oh,
to move it on from festivals.

1025
00:40:50,464 --> 00:40:50,644
This.

1026
00:40:50,729 --> 00:40:53,939
Has of course happened in the same
week that, another controversy with

1027
00:40:53,939 --> 00:40:58,109
the BBC and this particular area, has
come to a head, which was, you will

1028
00:40:58,109 --> 00:41:00,989
remember the documentary that went
out earlier in the year and turned

1029
00:41:00,989 --> 00:41:06,059
out to have been narrated by the
child of a Hams official, which was a.

1030
00:41:06,619 --> 00:41:07,309
Enormous.

1031
00:41:07,759 --> 00:41:11,989
however you cut it was an absolutely
enormous editorial cock up by, by the bbc.

1032
00:41:11,989 --> 00:41:14,209
It really, should not have happened.

1033
00:41:14,629 --> 00:41:19,489
As a result of this, they paused the,
broadcast of another documentary about

1034
00:41:19,489 --> 00:41:22,609
Gaza, which was following doctors
who were working in the war zone.

1035
00:41:23,344 --> 00:41:26,194
They have now, as of last week,
declared that they will not be

1036
00:41:26,194 --> 00:41:27,304
broadcasting that one at all.

1037
00:41:27,304 --> 00:41:29,044
Not because there are any
editorial problems with that.

1038
00:41:29,044 --> 00:41:30,004
They've had a good look at that.

1039
00:41:30,334 --> 00:41:33,574
But because, and this is the quote from
the BBC press office, we have come to the

1040
00:41:33,574 --> 00:41:38,704
conclusion that broadcasting this material
risks creating a perception of partiality

1041
00:41:39,214 --> 00:41:43,114
that would not meet the high standards
that the public rightly expect of the BBC.

1042
00:41:44,014 --> 00:41:46,324
Now, if we're not gonna broadcast
anything, that might create

1043
00:41:46,324 --> 00:41:47,944
a perception of partiality.

1044
00:41:48,784 --> 00:41:51,134
In a world which has the Daily Mail,
the Daily Telegraph, and Rupert Murdoch

1045
00:41:51,134 --> 00:41:54,044
in it, they're not gonna be able to
broadcast anything at all, are they?

1046
00:41:54,284 --> 00:41:57,224
that is, that just seems so
extraordinary to me as an excuse.

1047
00:41:57,524 --> 00:42:00,644
The documentary actually has now been
taken up by Channel four who has said

1048
00:42:00,644 --> 00:42:02,684
there are no editorial problems with
it whatsoever, and it is going to be

1049
00:42:02,684 --> 00:42:04,004
broadcast this week on that channel.

1050
00:42:04,004 --> 00:42:07,004
Instead, he reminded me more than
anything of, do you remember after

1051
00:42:07,034 --> 00:42:10,214
the enormous soul searching reviews
that the BBC did after all of the

1052
00:42:10,214 --> 00:42:11,624
stuff about Jimmy Savill emerged?

1053
00:42:12,074 --> 00:42:12,464
Do you remember who?

1054
00:42:12,464 --> 00:42:14,204
The only person who got
sacked over that was?

1055
00:42:14,859 --> 00:42:18,009
It was Tony Blackburn who wasn't accused
of doing anything like Jimmy Haval had

1056
00:42:18,009 --> 00:42:21,999
done, but it was because he had given a
different recollection of his encounter

1057
00:42:21,999 --> 00:42:27,219
with a female fan in, I think the 1960s,
to the internal investigation by the BBC.

1058
00:42:27,684 --> 00:42:30,474
So he was the one that ended up
getting punished for it and then they

1059
00:42:30,474 --> 00:42:31,494
had to reach a settlement with him.

1060
00:42:31,494 --> 00:42:34,434
He came back on b bbc, on
radio two fairly swiftly.

1061
00:42:34,434 --> 00:42:35,964
So it does seem to be this thing as well.

1062
00:42:36,444 --> 00:42:41,514
if you think of the, the Princess Diana
interview, Martin Beshe, and which again

1063
00:42:41,514 --> 00:42:44,484
was an absolute failure on so many levels
and turned out to be a huge coverup right

1064
00:42:44,484 --> 00:42:47,364
at the top level of the BBC, the only
person who got sacked over that was a.

1065
00:42:47,429 --> 00:42:52,019
Freelance graphic designer who had been
asked to mock up some fake documents to

1066
00:42:52,019 --> 00:42:53,219
convince Diana to give the interview.

1067
00:42:53,309 --> 00:42:56,999
It does just seem that they fire off
in all directions, consume themselves

1068
00:42:56,999 --> 00:43:00,179
over these things and then, do
the wrong thing in the end of it.

1069
00:43:00,179 --> 00:43:01,379
So often with the BBC, the

1070
00:43:01,379 --> 00:43:06,179
Ian: BBC is under enormous pressure
over this, and it, as you say, it

1071
00:43:06,179 --> 00:43:07,859
tends to buckle in the wrong direction.

1072
00:43:08,159 --> 00:43:11,279
there are marches saying the
BBC is violently pro-Israel.

1073
00:43:11,819 --> 00:43:14,639
and then the next day there's one
saying it's violently anti-Israel.

1074
00:43:14,894 --> 00:43:17,834
It certainly can't win and
the eye have made this point.

1075
00:43:17,834 --> 00:43:24,584
But, there are groups who are very keen
to make sure, that, BBC is anti-Israel.

1076
00:43:25,029 --> 00:43:27,039
Keeps appearing in the
papers and the times.

1077
00:43:27,039 --> 00:43:30,789
It had a piece by Danny Cohen, who's
a former senior executive at the BBC,

1078
00:43:31,059 --> 00:43:36,009
and he runs a research group that is
dedicated to finding this stuff out.

1079
00:43:36,129 --> 00:43:41,499
So in the Times on today, we have a
piece by him saying, there's chance

1080
00:43:41,499 --> 00:43:43,209
at Glastonbury about killing Jews.

1081
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:44,229
It's not strictly true.

1082
00:43:45,879 --> 00:43:46,944
as we've tried to explain.

1083
00:43:47,349 --> 00:43:48,849
And then I look in the rest of the paper.

1084
00:43:48,969 --> 00:43:53,409
And there is no mention of the whole
weekend in which large numbers of people

1085
00:43:53,409 --> 00:43:58,629
died 'cause they were in queues trying
to get aid and were shot by the IDF.

1086
00:43:58,719 --> 00:43:59,499
Helen: Yeah, I think you're right.

1087
00:43:59,499 --> 00:44:01,959
I think we could probably stand to
have a little more explanation of

1088
00:44:01,959 --> 00:44:05,319
why people might be unhappy with the
actions of the IDF in order to explain

1089
00:44:05,319 --> 00:44:07,089
why people are doing that chant.

1090
00:44:07,089 --> 00:44:08,619
It hasn't come out of, nowhere.

1091
00:44:08,619 --> 00:44:10,839
There is some important contextualization.

1092
00:44:10,839 --> 00:44:11,049
There

1093
00:44:11,229 --> 00:44:14,109
Andy: is the answer for the BB,
C, just to keep someone on hand

1094
00:44:14,109 --> 00:44:15,879
who can be sacked at any moment.

1095
00:44:16,339 --> 00:44:19,879
As a kind of corporation whipping
boy, the deputy head to roll.

1096
00:44:19,969 --> 00:44:20,269
Yes.

1097
00:44:20,269 --> 00:44:20,809
Yeah.

1098
00:44:20,809 --> 00:44:20,810
Yeah.

1099
00:44:21,229 --> 00:44:23,599
Adam: I would imagine, I mean we,
we are early in this at the moment.

1100
00:44:23,599 --> 00:44:25,009
The BBC response only
came out this morning.

1101
00:44:25,009 --> 00:44:27,919
As we are speaking, I would imagine
this one is gonna run and I'd imagine

1102
00:44:27,919 --> 00:44:32,539
eventually someone will go, someone
probably quite senior in the Glastonbury

1103
00:44:32,539 --> 00:44:36,379
coverage, who I'm sure was not monitoring
live feed from one of the smaller stages

1104
00:44:36,589 --> 00:44:37,759
at the time when that was going out.

1105
00:44:37,879 --> 00:44:40,879
I would imagine, just from my knowledge
of how these things work practically,

1106
00:44:41,149 --> 00:44:44,089
that most of the kind of senior staff
are on the big stages and working

1107
00:44:44,089 --> 00:44:45,289
out what stuff is going to be.

1108
00:44:45,409 --> 00:44:49,669
Cut and looped and put on the iPlayer
and used for the actual broadcasts

1109
00:44:49,669 --> 00:44:52,399
on BBC one and BBC two, which were
covering much and much of the weekend.

1110
00:44:52,579 --> 00:44:55,549
It would've been some very, junior
people just trying to keep a feed going.

1111
00:44:56,479 --> 00:44:59,509
and, probably none of them with the
authority to just say, cut the feed.

1112
00:44:59,509 --> 00:45:02,929
They've said something controversial, so
they will, I mean they, I'm no doubt they

1113
00:45:02,929 --> 00:45:06,019
will come up with procedures for this,
which will then go across all live events.

1114
00:45:06,024 --> 00:45:07,549
But they did take

1115
00:45:07,549 --> 00:45:07,969
Helen: it down.

1116
00:45:07,969 --> 00:45:08,449
That's the point.

1117
00:45:08,449 --> 00:45:10,549
They took it off the highlights
and they didn't rebroadcast it.

1118
00:45:10,549 --> 00:45:10,909
They moved

1119
00:45:11,209 --> 00:45:11,839
Adam: very, quickly.

1120
00:45:11,839 --> 00:45:12,949
It's quite difficult to see what.

1121
00:45:12,969 --> 00:45:14,919
More they could have
done actually on the day.

1122
00:45:14,919 --> 00:45:15,279
To me,

1123
00:45:15,369 --> 00:45:17,709
Helen: I'm quite impressed that actually
all of these papers had anyone in

1124
00:45:17,709 --> 00:45:20,319
the office to be able to write this
up, given that almost everyone I know

1125
00:45:20,319 --> 00:45:22,239
works in journalism was at Glastonbury.

1126
00:45:22,689 --> 00:45:26,529
Adam: Well, Katie Hind, who as showcased
in our in hack watch in our last edition,

1127
00:45:26,919 --> 00:45:31,629
glad to say she personally, I was there
at the moment because of course she'd

1128
00:45:31,629 --> 00:45:35,109
been sent by the Daily Mail along ready
for kneecap to appear a couple of hours

1129
00:45:35,109 --> 00:45:39,489
later so she could be raised by whatever
they, and luckily she got a bonus.

1130
00:45:39,529 --> 00:45:40,069
Story early on, so

1131
00:45:41,574 --> 00:45:44,959
Helen: I love that I, there I was
ready to be outraged by kneecap.

1132
00:45:44,959 --> 00:45:47,119
Like the number of people who
would've heard this had, it just

1133
00:45:47,179 --> 00:45:49,759
happened organically is about all
the people who were there, plus

1134
00:45:49,759 --> 00:45:51,379
about a couple of hundred people.

1135
00:45:51,919 --> 00:45:56,059
This did not need to be de rebar into
the national consciousness for Kia Storm

1136
00:45:56,059 --> 00:45:57,379
to have to come out and condemn it.

1137
00:45:57,394 --> 00:46:00,424
Adam: And certainly Bob villain
in terms of Spotify playlists and

1138
00:46:00,424 --> 00:46:04,114
general, acknowledgement by the general
populace will be shooting up just as

1139
00:46:04,114 --> 00:46:08,464
kneecap did when, when, that whole
ferry erupted and, I'm pretty half

1140
00:46:08,464 --> 00:46:11,554
of the crowd who were seeing them at
Glastonbury and waving the Palestinian

1141
00:46:11,554 --> 00:46:15,604
flags on Saturday, might not have
even been fans of them six months ago.

1142
00:46:16,449 --> 00:46:18,794
Helen: the fear, the fact that they
had Rod Stewart headlining as an avowed

1143
00:46:18,794 --> 00:46:22,769
reform sporter says this is the most
right wing Glastonbury for years Balance

1144
00:46:22,829 --> 00:46:24,249
Adam: for you is, yeah,

1145
00:46:24,629 --> 00:46:26,384
Helen: and I'm to tie all
these stories together.

1146
00:46:26,384 --> 00:46:30,284
I'm sad that climate change has robbed
us of the mud bath Glastonbury stories.

1147
00:46:30,284 --> 00:46:31,664
We haven't had one of those for years.

1148
00:46:31,664 --> 00:46:31,874
Yes, it's

1149
00:46:31,874 --> 00:46:32,894
Andy: all dust baths now.

1150
00:46:32,894 --> 00:46:33,584
Like the sparrows.

1151
00:46:33,584 --> 00:46:33,674
Yeah.

1152
00:46:33,674 --> 00:46:33,914
I used to

1153
00:46:33,914 --> 00:46:37,364
Helen: enjoy watching Kate Moss in some
hunter wellies having to wade through

1154
00:46:37,364 --> 00:46:38,984
what, like a sort of pig farm, but

1155
00:46:39,224 --> 00:46:39,674
Adam: no more.

1156
00:46:39,974 --> 00:46:41,714
there are big victims and
small, that's the thing.

1157
00:46:42,584 --> 00:46:44,834
Would you like to finish off
with a very quick pop quiz?

1158
00:46:45,329 --> 00:46:45,549
Yes.

1159
00:46:45,729 --> 00:46:45,949
Helen: Yes.

1160
00:46:46,369 --> 00:46:46,589
No.

1161
00:46:46,949 --> 00:46:47,229
Adam: Okay.

1162
00:46:47,664 --> 00:46:49,884
Will there be a classical quiz
afterwards for me in the increase?

1163
00:46:49,884 --> 00:46:50,154
It's alright.

1164
00:46:50,154 --> 00:46:51,204
Some of these go back a bit.

1165
00:46:51,204 --> 00:46:52,494
Ian, you might be able
to get some of these.

1166
00:46:52,524 --> 00:46:52,884
Okay.

1167
00:46:52,884 --> 00:46:57,204
Question one of whom did the
Daily Star Demand kick this Evil

1168
00:46:57,204 --> 00:46:59,934
Bastard Act on their front page?

1169
00:46:59,964 --> 00:47:00,534
Prodigy.

1170
00:47:01,804 --> 00:47:03,069
No, we going a bit earlier than that.

1171
00:47:03,489 --> 00:47:04,389
Was it Rod Stewart?

1172
00:47:04,569 --> 00:47:05,559
It wasn't Rod Stewart?

1173
00:47:05,744 --> 00:47:05,745
no.

1174
00:47:06,159 --> 00:47:06,789
The Shaman.

1175
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:08,259
Helen: Oh, good guess.

1176
00:47:08,259 --> 00:47:09,369
Was it Ebenezer Good?

1177
00:47:09,369 --> 00:47:09,789
They think it's

1178
00:47:09,789 --> 00:47:10,269
Adam: about drugs.

1179
00:47:10,644 --> 00:47:11,559
it, it was not.

1180
00:47:12,159 --> 00:47:12,369
no.

1181
00:47:12,369 --> 00:47:13,599
It was Snoop Dogg.

1182
00:47:13,629 --> 00:47:18,399
Ah, who in 1994 had been arrested on a,
murder charge, which was later dropped.

1183
00:47:18,909 --> 00:47:20,229
of all of the careers.

1184
00:47:20,384 --> 00:47:22,784
To go from kick this evil bastard
out and demanding that he'd

1185
00:47:22,784 --> 00:47:25,874
be thrown outta the country to
advertising, just eat and appearing

1186
00:47:25,874 --> 00:47:27,254
at the Olympics closing ceremony.

1187
00:47:27,434 --> 00:47:30,554
You do get the slight feeling that
the root from like national terror

1188
00:47:30,554 --> 00:47:33,944
to national treasure is a long
one, but it does bend towards cozy.

1189
00:47:33,944 --> 00:47:35,174
Just eat adverts, doesn't it?

1190
00:47:36,314 --> 00:47:39,164
Ian: and do you think the
trajectory is the same for everyone?

1191
00:47:39,344 --> 00:47:41,834
Will it be kneecap in 20 years time, say.

1192
00:47:42,339 --> 00:47:44,079
Have a lovely Cup with us.

1193
00:47:45,879 --> 00:47:46,179
Tea.

1194
00:47:46,179 --> 00:47:46,180
Tea

1195
00:47:46,209 --> 00:47:48,189
Helen: you can use, oh, sniffing
it through his little tea.

1196
00:47:48,189 --> 00:47:48,939
Cozy in isz.

1197
00:47:48,939 --> 00:47:49,509
Balaclava.

1198
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:50,049
Oh, that would

1199
00:47:50,049 --> 00:47:50,379
Adam: be good.

1200
00:47:50,379 --> 00:47:50,529
Yeah.

1201
00:47:50,529 --> 00:47:50,769
Yeah.

1202
00:47:50,769 --> 00:47:52,239
Selling the balaclava as tea cozy.

1203
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:53,199
That would be fantastic.

1204
00:47:53,349 --> 00:47:55,419
it might be because no mart Next issue.

1205
00:47:56,349 --> 00:47:59,049
Question two, who record
the protest record?

1206
00:47:59,424 --> 00:48:03,414
In 1972, after bloody Sunday,
give Ireland back to the Irish,

1207
00:48:03,564 --> 00:48:04,404
which was so controversial.

1208
00:48:04,404 --> 00:48:07,434
It was banned by the BBC and the
independent television authority and

1209
00:48:07,434 --> 00:48:12,084
accused, the band were accused of raising
funds for the IRA at their concerts.

1210
00:48:12,084 --> 00:48:13,044
Yeah, we know this one.

1211
00:48:13,224 --> 00:48:14,184
This was wings.

1212
00:48:14,189 --> 00:48:14,429
It was.

1213
00:48:14,844 --> 00:48:15,144
Really

1214
00:48:15,834 --> 00:48:16,164
Helen: lovely.

1215
00:48:16,164 --> 00:48:17,209
Paul McCarney is cozy.

1216
00:48:17,319 --> 00:48:18,054
Paul McCarney.

1217
00:48:18,054 --> 00:48:18,234
Adam: Yeah.

1218
00:48:18,234 --> 00:48:18,474
Yeah.

1219
00:48:18,474 --> 00:48:21,924
The debut single by Wings, and
on the political front again.

1220
00:48:22,164 --> 00:48:25,734
so US Country Band, Dixie Chicks,
now known as the Chicks, in

1221
00:48:25,734 --> 00:48:29,334
March, 2003 were re accused of
attacking US troops blacklisted

1222
00:48:29,334 --> 00:48:31,524
by radio stations across the USA.

1223
00:48:31,794 --> 00:48:34,254
They had public crashings
held of their CDs where people

1224
00:48:34,464 --> 00:48:35,964
driving tractors over and things.

1225
00:48:36,684 --> 00:48:40,104
they were called traitors
and, dubbed Saddam's Angels.

1226
00:48:40,704 --> 00:48:46,164
What did they actually say to, to, earn
all this Appium and where did they say it?

1227
00:48:47,039 --> 00:48:49,644
Helen: it was definitely, it was anti
Iraq war, so they said something like,

1228
00:48:49,704 --> 00:48:52,644
I'd really rather do think that George
W. Bush should rethink this chaps.

1229
00:48:52,644 --> 00:48:53,004
Actually,

1230
00:48:53,754 --> 00:48:55,254
Adam: it was pretty much on that level.

1231
00:48:55,314 --> 00:48:56,274
Yeah, it was extraordinary.

1232
00:48:56,274 --> 00:48:57,834
When you actually go back to
innocuous, it was, they said.

1233
00:48:58,299 --> 00:49:00,879
Just to say, we do not want this
war, we don't want this violence,

1234
00:49:00,879 --> 00:49:03,399
and we're ashamed that the president
of the United States is from

1235
00:49:03,399 --> 00:49:07,584
Texas, where they were from, and it
almost destroyed them at the time.

1236
00:49:07,824 --> 00:49:08,859
It was absolutely extraordinary.

1237
00:49:08,859 --> 00:49:10,809
They said it extraordinary, the
Shepherd's Bush empire as well.

1238
00:49:10,809 --> 00:49:11,829
So they weren't even in America.

1239
00:49:11,949 --> 00:49:12,339
Somehow.

1240
00:49:12,339 --> 00:49:13,269
This apparently made it worse.

1241
00:49:13,269 --> 00:49:15,579
The US media said to go
off to a foreign land.

1242
00:49:16,299 --> 00:49:16,719
Yeah.

1243
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,119
And say this is even worse.

1244
00:49:20,334 --> 00:49:20,814
There you go.

1245
00:49:20,874 --> 00:49:21,594
End of pop quiz.

1246
00:49:21,774 --> 00:49:28,284
And our ultimate pop picker is of course,
Mr. Ian Hislop, a man with a musical plan.

1247
00:49:30,234 --> 00:49:32,184
Andy: That Wings knowledge
really came into its own.

1248
00:49:32,754 --> 00:49:33,414
It did.

1249
00:49:33,774 --> 00:49:37,494
Adam: It is taken 53
years, but we got that.

1250
00:49:38,169 --> 00:49:40,209
Andy: That's it for
this episode of page 94.

1251
00:49:40,209 --> 00:49:42,819
We will be back in a
Fortnite with another one.

1252
00:49:42,819 --> 00:49:46,719
We'll find out what controversy
went down at Wimbledon and who

1253
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:47,979
will have had to resign over that.

1254
00:49:47,979 --> 00:49:48,669
Can't wait for that.

1255
00:49:48,879 --> 00:49:52,959
In the interim, why not go and buy the
magazine, which has all sorts of similar

1256
00:49:52,959 --> 00:49:57,339
stories and plenty, plenty more besides,
it's available on newsstands and it's

1257
00:49:57,339 --> 00:50:01,149
available for subscriptions@private.co uk.

1258
00:50:01,809 --> 00:50:05,049
it also works as a fan, or if
the weather has turned to rain.

1259
00:50:05,134 --> 00:50:05,914
As an umbrella.

1260
00:50:06,214 --> 00:50:10,744
So thank you to Helen, Ian, and Adam.

1261
00:50:10,864 --> 00:50:12,244
Thank you to you for listening.

1262
00:50:12,244 --> 00:50:15,064
And thank you to Matt Hill, OFAN,
Cordio, as always for producing.

1263
00:50:15,154 --> 00:50:15,514
Bye for now.