[00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to the latest episode of Concilio Better Places podcast, where I'm absolutely delighted to today to be joined by Peter Freeman, who is chairman of the Cran Bridge Growth Company. Peter, thank you very much for joining us.

Hello. Great pleasure.

Thank you very much Zen for giving up your time today.

Um, I'm sure many in our audience will be aware of your background in the industry. We may be just a full a, a quick one minute prey maybe of, um, how you started Argent and, and what it's kind of led to in your career.

Uh, a mere 44 years ago, age 25, um, I started a development company with my brother. Our first development was 4,000 feet in Southampton.

Mm-hmm. That's the size of a big-ish house. Uh, our last development really was Kings Cross in London, which it was 8 million feet in 2000 times the first. Um, but Cambridge is a challenge even beyond that. Well indeed. And

before you got to Cambridge, you were also Chair of Homes, England? I was indeed. Uh, 2020.

Um, what was your kind of day-to-day role there at Homes, England?

Um, it was non-exec. Mm-hmm. Uh, [00:01:00] chair as opposed to an exec chair and homes. England is an extraordinary vehicle. I think it really does an enormous amount of good as the government's housing and regeneration agency. Mm-hmm. Stretching across lots of programs like the affordable housing program, where with the principal grant give it housing associations.

Or the housing infrastructure fund, which helps open up large sites, um, which aren't viable without somebody paying for a new dual carriageway link or whatever. Mm-hmm. Uh, we make loans to big house builders, small house builders. When it's the big ones. It's specifically to open up large sites. Um, we take e equity in, in, in ventures we supported modern methods of construction.

Mm-hmm. So it's a, it's a fantastic cross purpose vehicle and it has eight regional offices so that we can be. Close to the mayors and the, and the local authorities where the action is

brilliant. In 2024, you stood down, um, as chair Yeah. Uh, and became chair of the Cambridge? No, I stood down in, in April

25.

Okay. I did both jobs for you. Okay. I didn't realize there was a crossover, [00:02:00] many hats, but, but then they finally found somebody much better in Pat Richie, uh, who, who's been chair since the beginning of May, and I've concentrated full time on Cambridge since then.

What excited you about the growth company?

Offer order, but tap on the shoulders and say, Peter, is this something you would be interested in doing? What, what made you after you said, oh, for over 40 years in the industry? Yeah. Um, it's a fresh new challenge.

What's exciting

about it for

you? So, um, somebody spent most of my career in the private sector, you have to go, whether is opportunity, and that means partly a site opportunity.

Mm-hmm. But partly where there's demand. There is a lot of demand for Cambridge. It's hot. Um, but there's also a lot of problems at Cambridge. Mm-hmm. There's a shortage of water. There's a transport crisis. Uh, there's shortly to be a power crisis, and I thought that, um, I. If the government was prepared to really back ca Cambridge with, with, with funds and a long-term policy, there would be a chance to [00:03:00] resolve those infrastructure problems.

Mm-hmm. And in many respects, do some ideal development. You know, a lot of people are kind enough to say that, um, King's Cross is exemplary and it mixes uses, it's not just offices or just housing or just education. It's, it's all of them. Yeah. And it's a place, place for the public. And Cambridge is clearly.

A place for the public. There's already lots of people living there. Mm-hmm. Lots of people want to visit it. It's got a, a global brand. Um, not just as, as an extraordinary place to visit with loads of beautiful buildings going about hundreds of years, but as a place that has produced 125 Nobel Prize.

Mm-hmm. 25 4 unicorn businesses. But most of the big projects there are in some way slightly stuck that, you know, whether you call it market failure or too many landowners or too little money for infrastructure or Yep. Who's gonna go first and cut the Gordian? Not there are problems. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think.

The growth company can act as a kind of [00:04:00] friend, uh, reasoner convener provider of money. Mm-hmm. The money, the money will, will be on commercial terms because if the government is investing in the Southeast, it really ought to get the money Yeah. Money back for the taxpayer. Um, but it will help unlock situations.

Mm-hmm. And hopefully the, the kind of rules we can set for intervening mm-hmm. Mean that. The developments that are produced are infrastructure led, they're mixed use, they're placemaking, um, they're not just monoculture of estate housing or monoculture of a state business park. Yeah. So W

Water Beach Station be an example of how government slash homes England slash the growth company can kinda get involved to unlock sites, which is stored.

So, so wa so Water Beach Station I is kind of business as usual for Ho Homes, England. Mm-hmm. Um, there was a need to move the station. Um. From one side of Water Beach Village into the kind of mm-hmm. Cent growth area center where the old airfield was. Um, [00:05:00] and nobody could really front the money for the station mm-hmm.

Amongst the landowner developers because they are putting in their own kind of onsite infrastructure and the sort of relatively slow sales rates, they can't fund it up front. So Holmes England has, has made a kind of. Loan, um mm-hmm. In order to pay for the infrastructure. It's absolutely brilliant.

So in, in the public appointment letter, um, that was, was made public when, when you were inviting you to be Yeah.

Become chair, there were four priorities listed. Um, accelerating development, creating an infrastructure first growth plan, which we've touched upon leading cross government efforts to unblock constraints and overseeing the Cambridge Growth Company's business plan. And I'm sure all four are important and interlinked, but is there something that you.

Decided to focus on right, right at the start, visitor priority? Or was everything we kind of tackled at the same time in parallel?

I mean, I'll sort of make a comparison to Kings Cross. Um, I. There, there were several foundational documents at King's Cross. Mm-hmm. And, and no one of them would've done without the other.

Yeah. There had to be [00:06:00] master plan to say kind of where things went and mm-hmm. What the mix was. There had to be a kind of corporate governance to say who would get to make, make decisions, both on the one hand being decision, being able to make decisions to drive things forward, and on the other hand, not being able to make arbitrary decisions that other people would regret.

Yeah. That then had to be where, where's the money coming from? Mm-hmm. And the business plan and the reality is, if the three of those things don't totally speak to each other mm-hmm. It won't succeed. So Cambridge, um, our first job really is to work out how much beyond what's been envisaged in the emerging local plan mm-hmm.

Um, is realistic for. Take up. So, so in a sense, you know, it has to be demand driven. This isn't about building empty space or the, the mm-hmm. Or the government creating jobs in a place where there's no demand. Yeah. It's, it's about calculating what, realistically, if there weren't restraints in terms of water or [00:07:00] transport or power and environmental constraints, what might the demand be?

Where might it best go? Which will need, looking very closely at transport because, um, the road system. Isn't good. And it's difficult because it's a very ancient, beautiful city in, in the center and you can't take city through the center. And whereas many central business districts are what they say they are in the center, um, in Cambridge, it's already spread a long way round.

Yep. Um, partly Bec because of the constraints in the center. So there's, you know, science parks growing to the northeast, south and the west. Um, and, and it's a sort of big and complicated decision, which will take another quite a few months and a lot of research to, to decide.

So it infrastructure first, growth plan, does that mean that you are focused on.

Unlocking from treasury and locking department transport, that the funding for the big infrastructure changes was needed to get people to the jobs which you are [00:08:00] creating. Yeah. Is, is that really the focus of the growth company?

Um, I, I think the focus is, is all working out what's needed. Talking very closely to the local elected politicians mm-hmm.

And the local officials. 'cause they've been worrying about, you know, what needs to be done in Cambridge for a lot longer than, than I have. And a are much closer to it. And then trying to. Put a business plan to them and the treasury saying, you know, this is the way these things which are public. Mm-hmm.

Goods and public benefits are necessary if the government wants to growth in Cambridge can be financed. Yep.

So I. It was said in the first few months after your appointment, you couldn't go to an event in, in Cambridge about Peter Freeman being there. You certainly took on the listening mode as you said you were going to do.

You said you were going to go and listen and it was self-evident that you were out there in listening mode. What did you learn in those first three, four months, uh, following appointment?

Pro, probably the first thing I learned is how incredibly joined up Cambridge is. Mm-hmm. And, [00:09:00] and sort of sort of welcoming and very, very professional.

So whether you talk to, to, to the politicians of different parties, ands every party. Yes. There's certainly, yeah. In the Cambridge Constellation or whether you talk to the kind of leaders of the university or, um, the kind of local business people. They all know each other. Mm-hmm. Um, and you, if, if you leave one meeting and go to the next meeting, the time you get there, they probably know what you discussed at the last meeting.

Because, because they're all ring around. But I, I think on the whole, that's a really positive characteristic.

Mm-hmm. And you've tapped into that, I guess, with the advisory council. Which consists of the leaders of Cams, south Cams de mayor. Obviously we had a recent change in my team. I understand that's, um, carried on from Johnson to Paul Bristow and independent experts as well from, uh, university and and so on.

What, what is their role, uh, within the, um, Cambridge

Growth Company? So, I mean, at, at the moment, um, the Cambridge Growth Company doesn't have any statutory powers, right? So, so it's a kind of convening, [00:10:00] listening, recommending. Organization, it has now commissioned, um, what's called the evidence base. Yes. And it's, it is probably important to sort of talk about the emerging local plan and the evidence base, because there's two reasons to address that.

One is why you commissioning yet more evidence has been asked. It said yes. Haven't the locals already done that? And of course they have. Um, but. They have, um, commissioned it in the context of historic take up and, and existing constraints that may not be able to be lifted. Mm-hmm. Um, and we, we are commissioning it in a context of.

If you could lift the constraints. Yeah. Okay. Would there be more demand? Mm-hmm. And what would it cost to lift the constraints and will the extra demand being built up in effect justify and finance that? So, so there's more sort of front Front yeah. View rather than rear, rear view. [00:11:00] Um, so. Partly the role of the advisory council is to have the four political leaders in the room as we begin to sort of think things out and say, you know, would you prefer to go eastern north or south or west?

Or, you know, what are your priorities? Um, and partly I. Within the advisory council. There's also, um, Paul, er, who is kind of like an knowledge national expert in the water situation. Yeah. But lives in that area. Was chair of a housing association in that there and chairs, water resources east. So we got.

Really on, on, on the most sort of thorny problem apart from transport. Mm-hmm. We've got the top man in the room. Yeah. Um, we've had the, uh, vice chancellor for innovation in the room since the whole project is not ultimately about housing numbers. The housing number, you know, the housing numbers are critical to the government and their 1.5 million, 5 million, but in.

In Cambridge, the real question is economic growth and the housing numbers go with the [00:12:00] economic growth rather. Mm-hmm. Rather than the housing numbers being a thing in their own right. Um, so we've had the vice chance and, and then we have, um, B Sally Morgan, who is Master of College, has been, um, close to labor politics since the days of Tony Blairs number 10.

Um, and she has the hospital trust so. The hospital trusts are, are kind of doubly important, partly because of the importance of the nhs mm-hmm. And medical care for the population, but also because, um, life sciences is of course, you know, one of the key drivers along with artificial intelligence and wicks and aortics in Cambridge.

But the, the cluster around Burgs hospital is second to nine years. It's world leading, isn't it? World leading. Yeah.

Um, so. Would it be too simplistic to say what kind of you're looking to do? So if we can sort the water out, if we can sort the transport out, and if we can sort the energy out, this is what Cambridge could be, and you are going to government with, uh, this is what you need to do, X, Y, Z.

And if we [00:13:00] do well, Cambridge can become this. Whereas the local is a bit more, a bit, a bit more, uh, less, less grandiose, I guess. And more, yeah, grounded. Um, I

mean it's like, like, like all local plans, it's grounded in saying what are the needs and are we allocating enough land, ary duty to produce it? And in a sense we are trying to jump beyond that.

Yeah. Saying, uh. The needs, the demand could be greater than the historic needs. Mm-hmm. And the end product could be greater socially, commercially for people already living there, for people coming there than just an, an incremental, um, increase in, in the size of the town. And, and the sort of things, you know, the, the new mayor is very keen on mass rapid transfer.

Yes. Which. Historically was not financially viable. Mm-hmm. But if you kind of cast your mind forward and say, no, no, we're, we [00:14:00] are really changing the scale of the town. Yeah. It probably does become affordable. Um, and so, you know, part of the role of the growth company is to be that bridge between shorter term pressures of you've gotta have a five year land supply mm-hmm.

To a longer term view of what, what can the city become? So

you've pointed a multidisciplinary team, uh, to create the, um, development strategy. Um, yeah. When is that going to be published? Is it early next year? That's what people are saying is, is that accurate? Um,

yeah. I mean it, the, the monthly team was only appointed in February.

Mm-hmm. It's led by Bureau Hap and Prime Partners. Yep. Uh, it's a pretty kind of Alister, um mm-hmm. Group. Um, and I, I think they will, they will do a great job and we are encouraging as much kind of pooling of knowledge and, and sharing. The way with, with the combined local authority. Yeah. Um, but until it, it's sort of dangerous prejudging [00:15:00] anything.

Of course, course before it's finished. And, and I think the, the transport piece will be key.

Yeah. Um, the geographical remit. Yeah. There's something a lot of people are asking open questions about in respect of Cambridge is so much more than Cambridge. Yeah. Um, and Cambridge Sure is certainly so much more than Cambridge.

The city itself is actually quite tightly defined geographically. Yeah. So just, just having the remit to the city would probably be too small. But then how far do you spread out? So what, what is the current remit of you see the growth company to to to fall within this?

Yeah. So, and, and Cambridge, you know, is historically the county city, but it's also actually kind of on the edge of the county.

Yes. So West Suffolk and, and mm-hmm. And Essex and Hartfordshire, all kind of a stones start away. Um, I think the only thing I'd probably say at this stage is, uh, you can't boil the ocean to deliver this well will take incredible focus. Yeah. Um. You know that there will probably be at least [00:16:00] 10 projects with it that are worth at least 3 billion each.

Wow. So, and that's if you just stick to the kind of city in South Cambridge boundaries. Mm-hmm. So I think it would be very odd to go beyond Cambridge. Yeah. County can take here. Um, you know, clearly there's, there's relationships to places like have Hill and West Suffolk. Mm-hmm. And we would work with the West Suffolk folk on looking at transport.

Between them and, you know, um, jobs, jobs being shared. It's good for hayville to be connected better with Cambridge in terms of how everything can link together. But I, but I don't think we should seek to, to have a kind of legal statutory responsibility for anything outside Cambridge.

So what is the current legal statutory.

Responsibility. Um, again, there's a, I won't wanna say confused, but people are asking the open question about a potential development corporation, um, being established. You able to provide any, at this stage, any further information on that? So, so

part of the evidence-based work is to [00:17:00] actually, uh, look at what things need to be solved and what conditions need to be met to solve them.

Mm-hmm. Um, and. In my view, the pressures on local authorities with their day-to-day business with old people, young people and whatever mm-hmm. Are pretty immense. Um, and if this is meant to be a kind of 25 year view, I, I think probably to have a kind of vehicle that does have, um, some statutory powers that.

Is in a longer cycle than local elections. Mm-hmm. And doesn't have to look at 70% of its budget going on social care. So Yeah, of course is, and, and having its skill base in infrastructure mm-hmm. And land and development, um, probably makes sense. And how would

local accountability be kind of tied in with that?

Um, so I think that's. Just a concern when [00:18:00] development corporations are set up, ensuring local people are not left outta the process, I assume that would be embedded in Right, right at the start is for local community involvement.

I mean, part, partly there's, there's a sort of statutory process for mm-hmm.

Engagement and consultation. Somebody like you is very familiar with. Yeah. Um, to, to, before you'd even, even form one, but, but I think it's, you know, it's really about who the board is and Yeah. Who, how the board's appointed and. Who they report to. Yeah.

Uh, one thing that can be said about Cambridge here is it's not short of, um, local government and layers of, um, bureaucracy.

So we've got Cambridge South Cams, the county, we've got the mayor, we've got the Greater Cambridge partnership. We've now got yours yourself as well. How are you finding that to navigate? Oh, and also we have unit trees and a mayor who's going through our spatial development strategy powers as well. So how are you finding.

Yourself knitting into all of this, because I think if you're starting from scratch, you wouldn't kind of invent the government structure, which is currently in place in Cambridgeshire, but it is what it is. We are where we are. So how are [00:19:00] you navigating that?

I don't think it's unparalleled in the country, but, um, but it, but it is pretty intense and, and there are particular wards where you could have all four tiers of politics in your house, so to speak.

Um. I think, I think we just have to have an open conversation over the next year as, as the evidence emerges. Yeah. Um, I.

Commercial versus housing. Yeah. Um, I think again, is your remit, do you see it as unlocking housing sites or, I think earlier you alluded to kind of the jobs and houses, which, which have they, I suppose they are again in parallel, but is your remits from government to focus on helping to deliver 1.5 million homes or is it to assist for commercial growth?

What, what's their priority for you?

So Homes, England is definitely there for the 1.5 million homes, but, but also is involved in regeneration in towns that, that, that involves jobs. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I think. It, it would be wrong for Cambridge to be [00:20:00] asked to take more homes than, than in a sense, when were, the jobs came, the Cambridge leadership has done astonishingly, the Cambridge has been growing about 1.7% new homes relative to stock.

Whereas most, most of the southeast has been about half of that. So, you know, it's pulled its weight, hasn't it? Came South Graham existing leadership, um. I mean, I, I, I probably see it at different levels. There's the overall level where you've gotta sort out transport and, and water and health services and being sure there's enough new schools and so on.

Um, and then there's the level of individual blocks. And the reason I say individual, um, blocks is it would be insane to do most of this by 50 houses here and a hundred there, and 200 there. You know, most of this should be 10 master plans that. Each of them can take employment and housing and education and leisure and public open space, lots of public open space, landscape and and so on.

So, [00:21:00] um, some of those were more naturally because of their location be, you know, maybe 80% about housing and 20% about jobs and I, amenities like schools and doctor surgeries and parks, and some of them will be the other way round. Um, but. But I think as far as possible, if you do them at the scale where they can be mixed use mm-hmm.

You, you make them better to live in and more sustainable because, uh, you know, if you build a hundred houses on a cul-de-sac mm-hmm. Where there isn't a bus stop, everybody comes and goes by a car, there's no other choice. Yeah. Maybe a bike occasionally. Mm-hmm. Uh, if, if, if you build 5,000 homes and 5,000 jobs and two schools, um.

You know, you can probably cut 70% of, of, of the car journey is because children can walk to school or whatever. I, I think for me, almost the, the beginning point of community and sustainability mm-hmm. Is that. 90% of kids can walk to a primary school. Yeah.

Mean is, is there an argument that you could get speedier [00:22:00] delivery by kind of the village extension to a hundred homes here to 200 homes there rather than, uh, the new town and the necessary infrastructure that comes to it?

Because a lot of villages around Cambridge are. Quite well connected, um, to various forms of public transport. Do you think that's um,

I think the a hundred here, a hundred there, which is to an extent how most planning mm-hmm. In the Southeast has historically been is, is kind of the worst of all things.

It puts stress on every village. It brings very little icy. Yep. So I think, you know, my view is that. Either it should be in a, a large step piece that brings its own schools and doctor surgeries. Mm-hmm. Or it should be more actually saying to a village, if you are afraid your village school will close 'cause there aren't enough children.

Or if you would like one to open and you actually would like several hundred homes. Yeah. Tell us. And, and, and we will see if we can kind of make that happen. But if you are a relatively small village and you'd [00:23:00] rather be left alone, then I think our job should be to leave you alone, alone. It

is interesting 'cause we are, we are seeing primary schools close across, yeah.

Across the region with a, just the lack of numbers in, in, in villages, um, around Cambridgeshire. Um, the larger settlements obviously breaks the question about infrastructure and where it's going to be. Yeah. Funded. We had the comprehensive spending review, um, last week. Um. How much money do you think the government can invest?

And put too much on the spot here to say, but you know, it is clearly gonna be a lot of investment needed to unlock for scale of developments you are talking about, um, financially in the size of homes. This is new road junctions. It's an awful lot. Do you think the appetite's there from the government to, to focus in on Cambridge to that extent?

Yeah, I, I think sort of. Part of my job and my experience and background is being a developer of large schemes mm-hmm. Is, is partly about having vision and patience and some diplomacy and some senses of, of what are good places, but it is also very much about being able to raise long term money. Yeah. [00:24:00] Um, and.

There, there's a kind of gap in, in the world of investment in mm-hmm. In, in property. I, if something is an up and left building, you haven't gotta take planning risks, you haven't gotta take building risks, you haven't gotta take land assembly risk, you haven't gotta take tendency risk. Investors will actually accept a very moderate return, you know, maybe seven or 8% per annum.

Mm-hmm. If they're told, go and assemble the land, go and spend three years and 5 million pounds on a planning application, and you might not get permission, they'll probably say, we'll only do that if I get 20% per annum, but actually they won't do it anyway. Mm-hmm. Okay. It's, it's too messy, so I think. Part of the role of the growth company is to de-risk the planning and the land assembly.

Mm-hmm. So that it can package things. And I think at that point, um, there is not unlimited, but there, there is loads of institutional private sector money that will be pleased to be invested in both [00:25:00] commercial and residential and Cambridge and also

land value tax. Potentially, I mean, cross rail was added to Yes.

Um, developers, section one, six bills for, for a number of years. Uh, if, I dunno if it's still around today, but it's for a long time. It is, it is for scope for the private sector paying and the list of value of, of the land to actually pay for this.

There, there's lots of different ways for the private sector to pay.

One is the section 1 0 6 obligations. Mm-hmm. One is, uh, is sill, uh, one is special tariffs, like, like the wars for crossrail. Another is the government acquiring the land. Earlier to kind of mm-hmm. Bulk discount rate. Yeah. Sorting out the planning of the infrastructure and mm-hmm. Moving in on at, at a retail investment rate.

So, so I think, you know, on a case by case basis, all of those will be used.

Yeah. So in 2050, what would good growth for Cambridge

look like? Um, I, I've said it on, on a couple of platforms that, um, it annoys me that when you say to most sort of [00:26:00] urbanists and architects in England, you know, what should I go and see?

They, they want to send you to Sweden or Germany or Holland. Yeah. And so, so, so part of my, my sense of what good growth will be is if in 2050 people are told, you know, from all over the world, you've gotta go and see Cambridge. Yeah. Um, and what. What you judge it by, I think is the. Um, the kind of wellbeing in the air, the number of people in the street.

Mm-hmm. The number of people, people kind of outside. You know, when, when, when I visit Kings Cross now as a visitor mm-hmm. Um, I'm al always filled at how many people are just sitting on a wooden Yeah. A bench we made, or a stone bench we made, or having an ice cream or having a coffee or watching their children play, play in the, um, fountains or doing yoga on the steps that lead down to the canal.

Mm-hmm. They like being there. And if, if you, if Cambridge is a place where. The people who live and work there, [00:27:00] like being there if, yeah, the best PhD from around the world in bio medicine things, I'd rather go to Cambridge than Silicon Valley or, yeah. Geneva than, than jobs done.

One of the aspects of Cambridge that many people aren't aware of is people see the, the university, uh, the life sciences, uh, uh, and the jobs, but there's actually, it's actually quite a divided city in some respects in terms of.

Of wealth or not and actually has some of the, the poorest wards in the country within it. Yeah. Which not many people are aware of. How is the growth company going to try and ensure that as Cambridge grows, people living in a city are available to access for jobs, which are created for skills, for training?

Is, is that, is that very much part of your focus?

Yeah. Um. C Cambridge is, is a divided city and there is much more declaration than I'd imagined. Mm-hmm. I think it's in part because there was more of a kind of industrial past and most of the industrial jobs have gone and with the sort of winding down of, um, the marshals businesses.

Yes, of course. You know, [00:28:00] more jobs have gone. 300 people were, um, made redundant last year. So I think in many ways, um. Training mm-hmm. Um, is gonna be essential to, to the success of the whole program because whether it's training to make sure that everybody is included and there's good jobs for everybody.

Yeah. Or whether it's training in order to find people to, to work in the labs, or whether it's training to find enough people to build the buildings. Yeah. Um, we cannot sort of. Let a, uh, the resource of local people mm-hmm. Be lost. They, they, they need to be in the workforce co contributing to growth. Um, and b it's just unfair that they aren't included.

And I think part of that is, is the sort of transport, physical accessibility. Yeah. Um, I was astonished when I went to the Abbey Ward, which is one of the more five. Mm-hmm. Wards and met the, uh, wonderful people who, who, who run Abby Peoples Community Association. The time it takes from somebody there to get to [00:29:00] Adam Books, you know, I could probably cycle to Adam Books from there in 20 minutes and it can take well over an hour to get there.

Incredible. By public transport, so. You know, those social needs are something we must also help address.

I guess it's also tying in with the six forms and the colleges people, uh, institutions like a IU to ensure that, you know, the skills which are needed as we move forward, not looking backwards at moving forwards are are there for young people in Cambridge.

Peter, thank you very much for your, for your time today. Best of wishes. Uh, and we look forward to seeing the, the report when it, the space development strategy when it comes out in 2026. Thank you. Thank you very much. Pleasure.