1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,059 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where 2 00:00:06,060 --> 00:00:08,959 INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,419 INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation. 4 00:00:12,420 --> 00:00:15,459 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and 5 00:00:15,460 --> 00:00:18,199 INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,139 INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe. 7 00:00:24,110 --> 00:00:27,309 PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast. 8 00:00:27,310 --> 00:00:30,929 PRODUCER: In this episode recorded in January 2025, 9 00:00:30,930 --> 00:00:33,149 PRODUCER: we're going to be looking at the issue of child 10 00:00:33,150 --> 00:00:34,390 PRODUCER: criminal exploitation. 11 00:00:35,670 --> 00:00:37,949 PRODUCER: Child criminal exploitation is a form of child 12 00:00:37,950 --> 00:00:40,829 PRODUCER: abuse where a child or young person is forced or 13 00:00:40,830 --> 00:00:43,829 PRODUCER: coerced to engage in criminal activity or commit 14 00:00:43,830 --> 00:00:44,969 PRODUCER: any type of crime. 15 00:00:46,110 --> 00:00:48,409 PRODUCER: Since this podcast was recorded, the Crime and 16 00:00:48,410 --> 00:00:50,249 PRODUCER: Policing Bill has been introduced into 17 00:00:50,250 --> 00:00:53,149 PRODUCER: Parliament. which would introduce a new specific 18 00:00:53,150 --> 00:00:56,809 PRODUCER: criminal offence of child criminal exploitation. 19 00:00:56,810 --> 00:00:58,969 PRODUCER: This would target the adult as the primary 20 00:00:58,970 --> 00:01:01,209 PRODUCER: offender in causing harm to the child by 21 00:01:01,210 --> 00:01:04,409 PRODUCER: exploiting them to commit criminal activity. 22 00:01:04,410 --> 00:01:06,569 PRODUCER: I'm joined by two guests with a wealth of 23 00:01:06,570 --> 00:01:08,929 PRODUCER: knowledge and experience on the topic to discuss 24 00:01:08,930 --> 00:01:11,309 PRODUCER: what professionals working with children need to 25 00:01:11,310 --> 00:01:14,089 PRODUCER: know about criminal exploitation and what can be 26 00:01:14,090 --> 00:01:16,509 PRODUCER: done to prevent children from being criminally 27 00:01:16,510 --> 00:01:17,989 PRODUCER: exploited. 28 00:01:17,990 --> 00:01:19,629 PRODUCER: Denise and Tara, please could you introduce 29 00:01:19,630 --> 00:01:20,609 PRODUCER: yourselves? 30 00:01:20,610 --> 00:01:23,589 DENISE ELLIS: Hi my name is Denise Ellis and I'm 31 00:01:23,590 --> 00:01:27,209 DENISE ELLIS: the service head for the NSPCC Helpline. 32 00:01:27,210 --> 00:01:30,149 DENISE ELLIS: I have the lead role for child 33 00:01:30,150 --> 00:01:33,329 DENISE ELLIS: criminal exploitation as part of my 34 00:01:33,330 --> 00:01:36,529 DENISE ELLIS: safeguarding role at the Helpline 35 00:01:36,530 --> 00:01:39,769 DENISE ELLIS: and I have 36 00:01:39,770 --> 00:01:42,969 DENISE ELLIS: nearly 43 years experience of 37 00:01:42,970 --> 00:01:45,929 DENISE ELLIS: working with children and families from 38 00:01:45,930 --> 00:01:49,679 DENISE ELLIS: nought right up to 18 years of age. 39 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:51,979 DENISE ELLIS: I previously worked for Manchester 40 00:01:51,980 --> 00:01:54,919 DENISE ELLIS: Safeguarding Unit, and I currently 41 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,199 DENISE ELLIS: deliver training to professionals 42 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,479 DENISE ELLIS: in regards to identifying the signs 43 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:03,839 DENISE ELLIS: of child criminal exploitation. 44 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,739 TARA MELLOWES: My name is Tara Mellowes and I am a 45 00:02:06,740 --> 00:02:08,359 TARA MELLOWES: Detective Constable based with 46 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,918 TARA MELLOWES: Leicestershire Police and I work within 47 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:12,439 TARA MELLOWES: their exploitation team. 48 00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:15,839 TARA MELLOWES: So my kind of specialism is child criminal 49 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,099 TARA MELLOWES: exploitation but we're a team that cross 50 00:02:19,100 --> 00:02:22,579 TARA MELLOWES: over, so I work alongside officers that 51 00:02:22,580 --> 00:02:25,219 TARA MELLOWES: specialise in child sexual exploitation and 52 00:02:25,220 --> 00:02:26,865 TARA MELLOWES: we work together within the exploitation 53 00:02:26,866 --> 00:02:27,866 TARA MELLOWES: team. 54 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,639 PRODUCER: Thank you both for joining us on the podcast. 55 00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:32,679 PRODUCER: Tara, please could you kick things off by giving 56 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,499 PRODUCER: us a brief overview of what child criminal 57 00:02:35,500 --> 00:02:37,259 PRODUCER: exploitation is? 58 00:02:37,260 --> 00:02:39,079 TARA MELLOWES: Annoyingly, we don't really have a 59 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:40,979 TARA MELLOWES: statutory definition for child criminal 60 00:02:40,980 --> 00:02:43,199 TARA MELLOWES: exploitation. A lot of work is being done 61 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,019 TARA MELLOWES: by some agencies to try and rectify that. 62 00:02:46,020 --> 00:02:48,899 TARA MELLOWES: However, we use a broader home office 63 00:02:48,900 --> 00:02:51,839 TARA MELLOWES: definition which is, effectively, it's 64 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,439 TARA MELLOWES: a form of child abuse where the child is 65 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,359 TARA MELLOWES: being exploited to take part in 66 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,979 TARA MELLOWES: criminal activity, mainly on the behalf of 67 00:02:59,980 --> 00:03:01,379 TARA MELLOWES: somebody else. 68 00:03:01,380 --> 00:03:03,899 TARA MELLOWES: It's essentially an individual or groups of 69 00:03:03,900 --> 00:03:06,539 TARA MELLOWES: people that would take advantage of the 70 00:03:06,540 --> 00:03:08,759 TARA MELLOWES: imbalance of power that would be between 71 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:09,760 TARA MELLOWES: them and a child. 72 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,939 TARA MELLOWES: That can include coercion, 73 00:03:13,940 --> 00:03:16,779 TARA MELLOWES: control, manipulation; it's just 74 00:03:16,780 --> 00:03:19,759 TARA MELLOWES: essentially using all of that to get that 75 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,099 TARA MELLOWES: child to engage in criminal activity 76 00:03:23,100 --> 00:03:26,919 TARA MELLOWES: but on behalf of somebody else, 77 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:28,229 TARA MELLOWES: for their own gain. 78 00:03:28,230 --> 00:03:29,609 PRODUCER: Thanks Tara. 79 00:03:29,610 --> 00:03:31,989 PRODUCER: And Denise, please can you tell us a bit more 80 00:03:31,990 --> 00:03:34,249 PRODUCER: about the different forms that child criminal 81 00:03:34,250 --> 00:03:36,149 PRODUCER: exploitation can take? 82 00:03:36,150 --> 00:03:38,649 DENISE ELLIS: Yeah, so there are many forms of child 83 00:03:38,650 --> 00:03:40,489 DENISE ELLIS: criminal exploitation. 84 00:03:40,490 --> 00:03:43,269 DENISE ELLIS: It can be the dealing and transporting of 85 00:03:43,270 --> 00:03:44,809 DENISE ELLIS: drugs or weapons. 86 00:03:44,810 --> 00:03:47,969 DENISE ELLIS: It could be growing cannabis. 87 00:03:47,970 --> 00:03:51,149 DENISE ELLIS: It can be encouraged to get involved 88 00:03:51,150 --> 00:03:53,589 DENISE ELLIS: in theft and burglary. 89 00:03:53,590 --> 00:03:56,089 DENISE ELLIS: Street crime, such as begging and 90 00:03:56,090 --> 00:03:57,969 DENISE ELLIS: pickpocketing. 91 00:03:57,970 --> 00:04:00,163 DENISE ELLIS: Compulsory labour, forced labour. 92 00:04:00,164 --> 00:04:03,549 DENISE ELLIS: Sexual exploitation. 93 00:04:03,550 --> 00:04:05,259 DENISE ELLIS: Drug trafficking. 94 00:04:05,260 --> 00:04:09,019 DENISE ELLIS: Involvement in criminal gangs and violence, 95 00:04:09,020 --> 00:04:12,839 DENISE ELLIS: modern slavery and stealing or shoplifting. 96 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,119 DENISE ELLIS: So there are a number of different ways 97 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,379 DENISE ELLIS: in which children can be criminally 98 00:04:18,380 --> 00:04:19,528 DENISE ELLIS: exploited. 99 00:04:19,529 --> 00:04:20,909 PRODUCER: Thanks, Denise. 100 00:04:20,910 --> 00:04:23,389 PRODUCER: Another type of criminal exploitation that 101 00:04:23,390 --> 00:04:26,729 PRODUCER: listeners may be familiar with is county lines. 102 00:04:26,730 --> 00:04:29,389 PRODUCER: Tara, I know this is an area your work covers. 103 00:04:29,390 --> 00:04:31,289 PRODUCER: Please, can you tell us a bit more about that 104 00:04:31,290 --> 00:04:32,609 PRODUCER: form of exploitation? 105 00:04:32,610 --> 00:04:35,629 TARA MELLOWES: That's where the bulk of my work is. 106 00:04:35,630 --> 00:04:38,349 TARA MELLOWES: We see children being used as drug runners 107 00:04:38,350 --> 00:04:40,809 TARA MELLOWES: that are trafficked, mainly out of big 108 00:04:40,810 --> 00:04:43,549 TARA MELLOWES: cities into smaller cities in towns, 109 00:04:43,550 --> 00:04:45,429 TARA MELLOWES: essentially for the purposes of working on 110 00:04:45,430 --> 00:04:46,949 TARA MELLOWES: a county line. 111 00:04:46,950 --> 00:04:48,369 TARA MELLOWES: For those that probably don't know what a 112 00:04:48,370 --> 00:04:50,329 TARA MELLOWES: county line is, it's effectively a drug 113 00:04:50,330 --> 00:04:52,909 TARA MELLOWES: dealing line that operates within a town or 114 00:04:52,910 --> 00:04:55,489 TARA MELLOWES: a city, but may be orchestrated from 115 00:04:55,490 --> 00:04:58,489 TARA MELLOWES: another larger city outside that force 116 00:04:58,490 --> 00:05:00,749 TARA MELLOWES: area. And that tends to be mainly crack and 117 00:05:00,750 --> 00:05:02,249 TARA MELLOWES: heroin drug dealing. 118 00:05:02,250 --> 00:05:04,489 TARA MELLOWES: And so that's what I see the majority of 119 00:05:04,490 --> 00:05:05,989 TARA MELLOWES: and a lot of the children that come under 120 00:05:05,990 --> 00:05:08,839 TARA MELLOWES: my radar have been involved in that. 121 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:11,679 PRODUCER: And why are children targets for criminal 122 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:12,979 PRODUCER: exploitation? 123 00:05:12,980 --> 00:05:14,939 PRODUCER: You mentioned earlier the imbalance of power 124 00:05:14,940 --> 00:05:18,099 PRODUCER: between children and perpetrators, for example. 125 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:20,239 PRODUCER: Please can you perhaps expand on this and how 126 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,019 PRODUCER: children come to be targeted? 127 00:05:22,020 --> 00:05:25,119 TARA MELLOWES: I think vulnerability plays 128 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,279 TARA MELLOWES: a huge part in that imbalance of 129 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:31,099 TARA MELLOWES: power, which naturally exists between an 130 00:05:31,100 --> 00:05:32,739 TARA MELLOWES: adult and a child. 131 00:05:32,740 --> 00:05:35,519 TARA MELLOWES: And also I think it's really important to 132 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,799 TARA MELLOWES: note that whilst there are some groups of 133 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:39,119 TARA MELLOWES: children that I would say are more 134 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,139 TARA MELLOWES: vulnerable to this kind of exploitation, I 135 00:05:42,140 --> 00:05:44,399 TARA MELLOWES: have seen children from all walks of life 136 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:45,639 TARA MELLOWES: become involved. 137 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,539 TARA MELLOWES: I think we're naturally inclined to see, 138 00:05:48,540 --> 00:05:51,299 TARA MELLOWES: from a stereotypical perspective, mainly 139 00:05:51,300 --> 00:05:54,099 TARA MELLOWES: children from deprived areas of larger 140 00:05:54,100 --> 00:05:56,979 TARA MELLOWES: cities, areas where gang culture is more 141 00:05:56,980 --> 00:06:00,139 TARA MELLOWES: prominent, children with adverse childhood 142 00:06:00,140 --> 00:06:01,959 TARA MELLOWES: experiences, children that have gone 143 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:03,779 TARA MELLOWES: through the social care system. 144 00:06:03,780 --> 00:06:05,679 TARA MELLOWES: Yes, they're the ones that come under my 145 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:08,399 TARA MELLOWES: radar. But I've also worked with children 146 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,319 TARA MELLOWES: from the complete opposite end of the 147 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,859 TARA MELLOWES: spectrum, and I think the consistent factor 148 00:06:12,860 --> 00:06:15,579 TARA MELLOWES: that I see all through the children that I 149 00:06:15,580 --> 00:06:19,279 TARA MELLOWES: see is that area of vulnerability. 150 00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:22,059 TARA MELLOWES: It's that targeting of that vulnerability. 151 00:06:22,060 --> 00:06:23,539 TARA MELLOWES: Whether that vulnerability within that 152 00:06:23,540 --> 00:06:26,639 TARA MELLOWES: child is that need for connection, and 153 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,219 TARA MELLOWES: that's how those children get involved in 154 00:06:29,220 --> 00:06:32,119 TARA MELLOWES: gang culture. Whether that child's 155 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,399 TARA MELLOWES: need and the target of the vulnerability is 156 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,299 TARA MELLOWES: money. We talk about children that come 157 00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:38,899 TARA MELLOWES: from very deprived areas of the country. 158 00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:41,119 TARA MELLOWES: I've seen boys in particular who see it as 159 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,159 TARA MELLOWES: their role within that family to make 160 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:45,819 TARA MELLOWES: money for the family. 161 00:06:45,820 --> 00:06:47,119 TARA MELLOWES: That's how they can get involved. 162 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,429 TARA MELLOWES: They're enticed by the ability to make a 163 00:06:50,430 --> 00:06:53,949 TARA MELLOWES: lot of money very quickly, as so they 164 00:06:53,950 --> 00:06:55,809 TARA MELLOWES: perceive it to be. 165 00:06:55,810 --> 00:06:58,429 TARA MELLOWES: What normally happens then unfortunately is 166 00:06:58,430 --> 00:07:01,029 TARA MELLOWES: that the perpetrators will target that 167 00:07:01,030 --> 00:07:03,629 TARA MELLOWES: vulnerability and create a kind of 'hook', 168 00:07:03,630 --> 00:07:05,929 TARA MELLOWES: if you like, whatever that 'hook' is to 169 00:07:05,930 --> 00:07:07,409 TARA MELLOWES: hook that child in. 170 00:07:07,410 --> 00:07:08,929 TARA MELLOWES: If I took money, for example. 171 00:07:08,930 --> 00:07:11,269 TARA MELLOWES: The hook for that child is to have that 172 00:07:11,270 --> 00:07:13,769 TARA MELLOWES: money come in. Someone might say to the 173 00:07:13,770 --> 00:07:15,629 TARA MELLOWES: child, "right you go and go and sit in that 174 00:07:15,630 --> 00:07:18,189 TARA MELLOWES: trap house for me for five days in this 175 00:07:18,190 --> 00:07:21,219 TARA MELLOWES: area and I will pay you £500 176 00:07:21,220 --> 00:07:24,299 TARA MELLOWES: for doing that for me." That child might go 177 00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:25,899 TARA MELLOWES: and do that, and they'll do it three or 178 00:07:25,900 --> 00:07:28,699 TARA MELLOWES: four times and not have any problem. 179 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:31,039 TARA MELLOWES: It will feel maybe quite easy to them. 180 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:32,279 TARA MELLOWES: They probably don't come under police 181 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,159 TARA MELLOWES: radar. They're probably not getting 182 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,999 TARA MELLOWES: arrested. So those three or four times that 183 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,899 TARA MELLOWES: they've done it, it feels quite easy to 184 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:41,719 TARA MELLOWES: make quite a large amount of money; but 185 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,139 TARA MELLOWES: that's where the hook is. 186 00:07:43,140 --> 00:07:45,579 TARA MELLOWES: And then that's when things do start to 187 00:07:45,580 --> 00:07:46,580 TARA MELLOWES: spiral. 188 00:07:47,650 --> 00:07:49,689 TARA MELLOWES: It might be that on the third or fourth 189 00:07:49,690 --> 00:07:51,089 TARA MELLOWES: time they've gone and done it, they're 190 00:07:51,090 --> 00:07:52,929 TARA MELLOWES: arrested by police. All of a sudden, they 191 00:07:52,930 --> 00:07:55,509 TARA MELLOWES: find themselves in a custody suite. 192 00:07:55,510 --> 00:07:57,589 TARA MELLOWES: It may be that something's happened and 193 00:07:57,590 --> 00:07:59,129 TARA MELLOWES: that child has either lost money or lost 194 00:07:59,130 --> 00:08:02,489 TARA MELLOWES: drugs, and that's how that spirals very, 195 00:08:02,490 --> 00:08:03,849 TARA MELLOWES: very quickly. 196 00:08:03,850 --> 00:08:06,509 TARA MELLOWES: I think that's where the children don't see 197 00:08:06,510 --> 00:08:09,389 TARA MELLOWES: the danger. Something that can feel quite 198 00:08:09,390 --> 00:08:12,329 TARA MELLOWES: easy or okay at first, they don't 199 00:08:12,330 --> 00:08:14,829 TARA MELLOWES: see the spiral that it can take very 200 00:08:14,830 --> 00:08:15,649 TARA MELLOWES: quickly. 201 00:08:15,650 --> 00:08:17,969 PRODUCER: Listening to you there Tara, I think one of the 202 00:08:17,970 --> 00:08:20,889 PRODUCER: key points for listeners to remember is that 203 00:08:20,890 --> 00:08:23,529 PRODUCER: whilst some children are at increased risk, 204 00:08:23,530 --> 00:08:26,589 PRODUCER: criminal exploitation can happen to any child. 205 00:08:26,590 --> 00:08:29,249 PRODUCER: So everyone needs to be vigilant. 206 00:08:29,250 --> 00:08:32,249 PRODUCER: Denise, with this in mind, what are the signs of 207 00:08:32,250 --> 00:08:34,569 PRODUCER: child criminal exploitation that professionals 208 00:08:34,570 --> 00:08:37,399 PRODUCER: working with children need to look out for? 209 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,739 DENISE ELLIS: Yeah, so with this, you need to be very 210 00:08:39,740 --> 00:08:42,619 DENISE ELLIS: careful. We refer to it as 'pennies in the 211 00:08:42,620 --> 00:08:45,639 DENISE ELLIS: bank'. So what we wouldn't want to do is 212 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,559 DENISE ELLIS: for somebody just to think, oh, 213 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:51,119 DENISE ELLIS: somebody I know has been seen away from 214 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,939 DENISE ELLIS: home, missing from home or there's been a 215 00:08:53,940 --> 00:08:56,939 DENISE ELLIS: change in their appearance or they've 216 00:08:56,940 --> 00:08:59,279 DENISE ELLIS: been missing from school or their behaviours 217 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:00,280 DENISE ELLIS: have changed. 218 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,259 DENISE ELLIS: So, you know, it can be signs to look out 219 00:09:04,260 --> 00:09:05,260 DENISE ELLIS: for. 220 00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:07,569 DENISE ELLIS: Use of new slang words. 221 00:09:07,570 --> 00:09:10,389 DENISE ELLIS: Carrying weapons. Having two mobile phones, 222 00:09:10,390 --> 00:09:12,409 DENISE ELLIS: that's a common one. 223 00:09:12,410 --> 00:09:15,609 DENISE ELLIS: It could be graffiti-style tags. 224 00:09:15,610 --> 00:09:18,829 DENISE ELLIS: It can be a change in routine or 225 00:09:18,830 --> 00:09:21,149 DENISE ELLIS: places seen that they wouldn't normally have 226 00:09:21,150 --> 00:09:22,829 DENISE ELLIS: been seen. 227 00:09:22,830 --> 00:09:25,889 DENISE ELLIS: Increased social media usage; we 228 00:09:25,890 --> 00:09:29,209 DENISE ELLIS: know that young people do tend to 229 00:09:29,210 --> 00:09:32,049 DENISE ELLIS: be on social media a lot, but it's just 230 00:09:32,050 --> 00:09:34,089 DENISE ELLIS: looking out and being aware of some of those 231 00:09:34,090 --> 00:09:35,349 DENISE ELLIS: signs. 232 00:09:35,350 --> 00:09:38,469 DENISE ELLIS: Again, committing petty crimes and 233 00:09:38,470 --> 00:09:41,529 DENISE ELLIS: being stopped and 234 00:09:41,530 --> 00:09:43,411 DENISE ELLIS: seen in places they wouldn't normally be. 235 00:09:43,412 --> 00:09:46,309 DENISE ELLIS: Wearing expensive clothing that can 236 00:09:46,310 --> 00:09:49,549 DENISE ELLIS: be a sign — if they've not got the receipt 237 00:09:49,550 --> 00:09:51,789 DENISE ELLIS: to show that it's been paid for. 238 00:09:51,790 --> 00:09:54,709 DENISE ELLIS: Where have those extra mobile phones 239 00:09:54,710 --> 00:09:57,629 DENISE ELLIS: come from? Where have those £200 240 00:09:57,630 --> 00:09:59,864 DENISE ELLIS: trainers come from? 241 00:09:59,865 --> 00:10:01,729 DENISE ELLIS: Abusing drugs and alcohol. 242 00:10:01,730 --> 00:10:04,509 DENISE ELLIS: Refusing to seek medical help. 243 00:10:06,579 --> 00:10:10,419 DENISE ELLIS: Repeated sexual health conditions, 244 00:10:10,420 --> 00:10:13,639 DENISE ELLIS: unwanted pregnancies, getting involved in 245 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,399 DENISE ELLIS: fights, more physical violence. 246 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,779 DENISE ELLIS: So yeah, there are so many different things. 247 00:10:19,780 --> 00:10:22,699 DENISE ELLIS: But in regards to county lines, 248 00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:24,819 DENISE ELLIS: one of the things that— there was one young 249 00:10:24,820 --> 00:10:27,999 DENISE ELLIS: person who'd said that they were travelling 250 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,199 DENISE ELLIS: on a train at 12 years of age, 251 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,199 DENISE ELLIS: going outside of the 252 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,039 DENISE ELLIS: place, the geographical area where they 253 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,040 DENISE ELLIS: normally lived. 254 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:40,879 DENISE ELLIS: They said that they were invisible. 255 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:42,519 DENISE ELLIS: No one stopped them. 256 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,459 DENISE ELLIS: No one said hello or, you know, where are 257 00:10:45,460 --> 00:10:47,199 DENISE ELLIS: you going? Why are you on your own? 258 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,219 DENISE ELLIS: This was a 12-year-old person who's being 259 00:10:50,220 --> 00:10:52,968 DENISE ELLIS: asked to travel solo to London 260 00:10:54,060 --> 00:10:56,799 DENISE ELLIS: and was having to go into an area they 261 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,559 DENISE ELLIS: didn't know before. So if you see somebody 262 00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:02,079 DENISE ELLIS: and they seem lost or they might have a 263 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,339 DENISE ELLIS: school uniform that just doesn't fit in with 264 00:11:04,340 --> 00:11:06,499 DENISE ELLIS: that geographical area. 265 00:11:06,500 --> 00:11:08,919 DENISE ELLIS: These are signs to look out for. 266 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:10,159 PRODUCER: Thanks Denise. 267 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,739 PRODUCER: And Tara, can you give us an overview of the 268 00:11:12,740 --> 00:11:14,979 PRODUCER: risks associated with child criminal 269 00:11:14,980 --> 00:11:16,109 PRODUCER: exploitation? 270 00:11:16,110 --> 00:11:19,349 TARA MELLOWES: I think the risks are absolutely huge and 271 00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:22,009 TARA MELLOWES: are so multifaceted, it's really hard to 272 00:11:22,010 --> 00:11:24,209 TARA MELLOWES: contain them into a very small, brief 273 00:11:24,210 --> 00:11:25,789 TARA MELLOWES: overview. 274 00:11:25,790 --> 00:11:27,889 TARA MELLOWES: But I think for me [the one] that jumps out 275 00:11:27,890 --> 00:11:30,389 TARA MELLOWES: the most obvious is the criminality element 276 00:11:30,390 --> 00:11:33,369 TARA MELLOWES: of it. Speaking from a police perspective, 277 00:11:33,370 --> 00:11:36,389 TARA MELLOWES: our standpoint when we come across children 278 00:11:36,390 --> 00:11:38,449 TARA MELLOWES: is we don't want to criminalise children. 279 00:11:38,450 --> 00:11:40,829 TARA MELLOWES: It's not something that we feel comfortable 280 00:11:40,830 --> 00:11:43,649 TARA MELLOWES: doing. Our first standpoint will always be 281 00:11:43,650 --> 00:11:45,769 TARA MELLOWES: to look at the broader picture of what's 282 00:11:45,770 --> 00:11:48,909 TARA MELLOWES: going on for that child but criminalisation 283 00:11:48,910 --> 00:11:51,949 TARA MELLOWES: in itself, whether that's through 284 00:11:51,950 --> 00:11:54,129 TARA MELLOWES: being arrested for drug dealing, if they're 285 00:11:54,130 --> 00:11:55,389 TARA MELLOWES: getting involved in county line drug 286 00:11:55,390 --> 00:11:57,369 TARA MELLOWES: dealing, it's the criminalisation. If they 287 00:11:57,370 --> 00:11:59,229 TARA MELLOWES: are getting involved in other types of 288 00:11:59,230 --> 00:12:01,449 TARA MELLOWES: offending, whether those children are 289 00:12:01,450 --> 00:12:03,769 TARA MELLOWES: involved in a gang culture and a lifestyle, 290 00:12:03,770 --> 00:12:05,809 TARA MELLOWES: we get violent offending that crops up with 291 00:12:05,810 --> 00:12:07,129 TARA MELLOWES: it as well. 292 00:12:07,130 --> 00:12:09,989 TARA MELLOWES: So that's the biggest kind of thing that I 293 00:12:09,990 --> 00:12:12,489 TARA MELLOWES: see is the risks that child is going to 294 00:12:12,490 --> 00:12:15,229 TARA MELLOWES: find themselves in a custody cell, or 295 00:12:15,230 --> 00:12:18,269 TARA MELLOWES: getting themselves involved in serious 296 00:12:18,270 --> 00:12:20,549 TARA MELLOWES: harm and violence against other people, 297 00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:21,889 TARA MELLOWES: against each other. 298 00:12:21,890 --> 00:12:24,229 TARA MELLOWES: That's the bit that I see the most of. 299 00:12:24,230 --> 00:12:26,189 TARA MELLOWES: But then the tail end of that as well is 300 00:12:26,190 --> 00:12:28,029 TARA MELLOWES: the knock-on effect that that has on that 301 00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:31,029 TARA MELLOWES: child, whether that is the physical harm 302 00:12:31,030 --> 00:12:33,289 TARA MELLOWES: to themselves. Getting involved in county 303 00:12:33,290 --> 00:12:35,649 TARA MELLOWES: line drug dealing normally has an element 304 00:12:35,650 --> 00:12:38,209 TARA MELLOWES: of violence associated with it as well, 305 00:12:38,210 --> 00:12:39,829 TARA MELLOWES: particularly in areas where there's 306 00:12:39,830 --> 00:12:42,069 TARA MELLOWES: numerous county lines running; there can be 307 00:12:42,070 --> 00:12:44,169 TARA MELLOWES: animosity and violence between different 308 00:12:44,170 --> 00:12:46,069 TARA MELLOWES: entities that are operating in certain 309 00:12:46,070 --> 00:12:48,389 TARA MELLOWES: areas. Those that are getting involved, or 310 00:12:48,390 --> 00:12:50,469 TARA MELLOWES: starting to get involved, in gang culture 311 00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:53,369 TARA MELLOWES: and lifestyle, violence can be used 312 00:12:53,370 --> 00:12:55,149 TARA MELLOWES: as a bit of a test or a bit of an 313 00:12:55,150 --> 00:12:58,049 TARA MELLOWES: initiation to be able to become part of 314 00:12:58,050 --> 00:12:59,349 TARA MELLOWES: that element. 315 00:12:59,350 --> 00:13:01,369 TARA MELLOWES: That kind of leads on to the physical and 316 00:13:01,370 --> 00:13:04,249 TARA MELLOWES: the psychological harm of what happens with 317 00:13:04,250 --> 00:13:05,509 TARA MELLOWES: those children. 318 00:13:05,510 --> 00:13:07,089 TARA MELLOWES: It's something, particularly the 319 00:13:07,090 --> 00:13:08,669 TARA MELLOWES: psychological element of it, isn't 320 00:13:08,670 --> 00:13:10,029 TARA MELLOWES: something that's probably the most 321 00:13:10,030 --> 00:13:11,529 TARA MELLOWES: immediate to them. 322 00:13:11,530 --> 00:13:14,849 TARA MELLOWES: They can go years before 323 00:13:14,850 --> 00:13:16,749 TARA MELLOWES: those psychological elements become 324 00:13:16,750 --> 00:13:19,469 TARA MELLOWES: apparent and they all form part of, you 325 00:13:19,470 --> 00:13:21,509 TARA MELLOWES: know, quite adverse childhood experiences 326 00:13:21,510 --> 00:13:24,289 TARA MELLOWES: that we talk about when we talk about 327 00:13:24,290 --> 00:13:27,809 TARA MELLOWES: adults and how they behave and how 328 00:13:27,810 --> 00:13:30,509 TARA MELLOWES: their formed later on in life and the 329 00:13:30,510 --> 00:13:33,139 TARA MELLOWES: impact of that is massive. 330 00:13:33,140 --> 00:13:36,059 TARA MELLOWES: And I think that's where the concerns are 331 00:13:36,060 --> 00:13:39,119 TARA MELLOWES: for me. Even those children that have come 332 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,189 TARA MELLOWES: through and been involved in CCE (child 333 00:13:41,190 --> 00:13:42,739 TARA MELLOWES: criminal exploitation), that maybe feel 334 00:13:42,740 --> 00:13:45,159 TARA MELLOWES: like they've come out of it unscathed, it's 335 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,179 TARA MELLOWES: the impact that that has on later down the 336 00:13:47,180 --> 00:13:47,999 TARA MELLOWES: line. 337 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,599 PRODUCER: So there's both the short-term risks, such as 338 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,459 PRODUCER: criminalisation and physical abuse, but also 339 00:13:53,460 --> 00:13:56,159 PRODUCER: those long-term impacts of adverse childhood 340 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,059 PRODUCER: experiences and trauma associated with the 341 00:13:59,060 --> 00:14:01,779 PRODUCER: exploitation. So the risks are really clear. 342 00:14:01,780 --> 00:14:03,999 PRODUCER: We also know that it can be really difficult to 343 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,659 PRODUCER: extricate children from criminal exploitation 344 00:14:06,660 --> 00:14:09,219 PRODUCER: once they've become caught up in it. 345 00:14:09,220 --> 00:14:12,039 PRODUCER: So prevention and early intervention takes on an 346 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:13,839 PRODUCER: increased importance. 347 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,459 PRODUCER: Denise, please can you tell us a bit more about 348 00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:16,460 PRODUCER: this? 349 00:14:16,799 --> 00:14:20,299 DENISE ELLIS: Early intervention is incredibly important. 350 00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:23,359 DENISE ELLIS: It can provide targeted expert 351 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,599 DENISE ELLIS: support to help children at risk 352 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,199 DENISE ELLIS: to find a positive path forward away 353 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,339 DENISE ELLIS: from criminality. 354 00:14:32,340 --> 00:14:35,879 DENISE ELLIS: So things to consider: early recognition 355 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,939 DENISE ELLIS: nips things in the bud. 356 00:14:37,940 --> 00:14:39,243 DENISE ELLIS: That's one of the key things. 357 00:14:39,244 --> 00:14:43,179 DENISE ELLIS: It prevents normalisation. 358 00:14:43,180 --> 00:14:44,859 DENISE ELLIS: And one of the things that we hear from 359 00:14:44,860 --> 00:14:46,639 DENISE ELLIS: young people who are being criminally 360 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,859 DENISE ELLIS: exploited is that they think that it's 361 00:14:49,860 --> 00:14:53,559 DENISE ELLIS: normal. That it's normal to carry weapons. 362 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,679 DENISE ELLIS: It's normal to carry drugs. 363 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,759 DENISE ELLIS: It's not normal to be raped. 364 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,959 DENISE ELLIS: It is never normal to raped or 365 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,939 DENISE ELLIS: abused in any way. 366 00:15:03,940 --> 00:15:06,599 DENISE ELLIS: It prevents escalation of more serious 367 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,599 DENISE ELLIS: crime. Obviously the grooming and 368 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,642 DENISE ELLIS: the drawing young people into this, 369 00:15:12,643 --> 00:15:15,739 DENISE ELLIS: what they portray as a fantastic 370 00:15:15,740 --> 00:15:18,639 DENISE ELLIS: world of, you know, do you want to have 371 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,039 DENISE ELLIS: a £200 pair of trainers or do you wanna earn 372 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:23,399 DENISE ELLIS: £500 pound. 373 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,919 DENISE ELLIS: For some young people that's a lure. 374 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:28,401 DENISE ELLIS: That's kind of... this sounds fabulous. 375 00:15:28,402 --> 00:15:31,359 DENISE ELLIS: They don't have to do anything at first. 376 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,399 DENISE ELLIS: But nipping things in the bud and 377 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,759 DENISE ELLIS: early interventions prevents that escalation 378 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,939 DENISE ELLIS: of more serious crime because nothing 379 00:15:40,940 --> 00:15:43,079 DENISE ELLIS: is free in this world. 380 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,979 DENISE ELLIS: So if you've got a brand new 381 00:15:45,980 --> 00:15:49,399 DENISE ELLIS: £200 pair of trainers or mobile phone, 382 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,399 DENISE ELLIS: there is some kind of payback for that. 383 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,379 DENISE ELLIS: So it might start off with, "oh, can 384 00:15:55,380 --> 00:15:58,399 DENISE ELLIS: you just transport some cannabis for 385 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,339 DENISE ELLIS: us?" But that cannabis then turns into 386 00:16:01,340 --> 00:16:05,259 DENISE ELLIS: Class A drugs such as cocaine, heroin, 387 00:16:05,260 --> 00:16:08,359 DENISE ELLIS: crack cocaine and the increase in 388 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,989 DENISE ELLIS: criminalisation goes up and up. 389 00:16:10,990 --> 00:16:12,990 DENISE ELLIS: So early intervention 390 00:16:14,470 --> 00:16:16,929 DENISE ELLIS: breaks that kind of cycle. 391 00:16:16,930 --> 00:16:20,429 DENISE ELLIS: It prevents criminalising children. 392 00:16:20,430 --> 00:16:24,669 DENISE ELLIS: We often hear professionals use 393 00:16:24,670 --> 00:16:26,949 DENISE ELLIS: criminalising language. 394 00:16:26,950 --> 00:16:29,449 DENISE ELLIS: You know, "oh the young person was 395 00:16:29,450 --> 00:16:32,509 DENISE ELLIS: promiscuous" — you're using blaming language 396 00:16:32,510 --> 00:16:35,909 DENISE ELLIS: for somebody who's a potential victim. 397 00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:38,069 DENISE ELLIS: So there should be no blaming. 398 00:16:38,070 --> 00:16:41,009 DENISE ELLIS: Young people who have been exploited 399 00:16:41,010 --> 00:16:43,069 DENISE ELLIS: are victims. 400 00:16:43,070 --> 00:16:46,049 DENISE ELLIS: It prevents entrenched criminal behaviour 401 00:16:46,050 --> 00:16:49,309 DENISE ELLIS: because once that becomes the normalisation, 402 00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:52,749 DENISE ELLIS: once that becomes part of your lifestyle, 403 00:16:52,750 --> 00:16:55,129 DENISE ELLIS: it's hard to break that cycle. 404 00:16:55,130 --> 00:16:58,049 DENISE ELLIS: So it's easier to break if 405 00:16:58,050 --> 00:16:59,849 DENISE ELLIS: early intervention is there. 406 00:16:59,850 --> 00:17:03,588 DENISE ELLIS: It avoids going up in the chain of 407 00:17:03,589 --> 00:17:05,088 DENISE ELLIS: criminality. 408 00:17:08,351 --> 00:17:10,379 DENISE ELLIS: We've seen a hierarchy of gangs for instance. 409 00:17:10,380 --> 00:17:13,479 DENISE ELLIS: So you have the faces, you have the 410 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,578 DENISE ELLIS: elders and the ones who are high up in 411 00:17:16,579 --> 00:17:19,539 DENISE ELLIS: that chain and that leads 412 00:17:19,540 --> 00:17:21,459 DENISE ELLIS: to the people who are on the streets, who 413 00:17:21,460 --> 00:17:23,759 DENISE ELLIS: are dealing with guns, who are dealing with 414 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,539 DENISE ELLIS: drugs and weapons. 415 00:17:26,940 --> 00:17:30,039 DENISE ELLIS: So early intervention breaks that chain of 416 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,039 DENISE ELLIS: going up in the hierarchal kind 417 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,119 DENISE ELLIS: of more serious criminality. 418 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:39,189 DENISE ELLIS: It prevents serious health and fatalities. 419 00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:42,629 DENISE ELLIS: We know and we've seen that young people 420 00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:45,669 DENISE ELLIS: who are exploited are at risk of serious 421 00:17:45,670 --> 00:17:48,749 DENISE ELLIS: harm, so that early intervention is 422 00:17:48,750 --> 00:17:52,049 DENISE ELLIS: key. It provides life opportunities 423 00:17:52,050 --> 00:17:54,372 DENISE ELLIS: and alternative means of successes. 424 00:17:55,410 --> 00:17:59,149 DENISE ELLIS: So when children are seeing these lifestyles 425 00:17:59,150 --> 00:18:02,109 DENISE ELLIS: of, you know, these big mansions, these 426 00:18:02,110 --> 00:18:05,089 DENISE ELLIS: fantastic cars, things that people 427 00:18:05,090 --> 00:18:06,603 DENISE ELLIS: like pop stars and footballers have; 428 00:18:08,550 --> 00:18:10,769 DENISE ELLIS: they feel that they're entering into a world 429 00:18:10,770 --> 00:18:13,429 DENISE ELLIS: where all these things are gonna be given to 430 00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:16,329 DENISE ELLIS: them. But to break that cycle and get 431 00:18:16,330 --> 00:18:19,189 DENISE ELLIS: them on the path of other successes, of 432 00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:22,469 DENISE ELLIS: career choices, is what is amazing with 433 00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:24,169 DENISE ELLIS: early intervention. 434 00:18:24,170 --> 00:18:26,809 DENISE ELLIS: So they're just a few safeguarding examples 435 00:18:26,810 --> 00:18:27,976 DENISE ELLIS: of how early intervention can help. 436 00:18:29,970 --> 00:18:32,429 PRODUCER: And what are some of the elements of strong 437 00:18:32,430 --> 00:18:35,222 PRODUCER: early intervention? What does that look like? 438 00:18:35,223 --> 00:18:38,049 DENISE ELLIS: We often look at offender and victim. 439 00:18:38,050 --> 00:18:41,449 DENISE ELLIS: So, in order to focus on supporting 440 00:18:41,450 --> 00:18:44,369 DENISE ELLIS: young people who are trapped, 441 00:18:44,370 --> 00:18:47,249 DENISE ELLIS: it's important that we have to tackle 442 00:18:47,250 --> 00:18:49,069 DENISE ELLIS: exploitation. 443 00:18:49,070 --> 00:18:50,969 DENISE ELLIS: If you're a specialised practitioner, such 444 00:18:50,970 --> 00:18:53,829 DENISE ELLIS: as a caseworker or a police investigator, 445 00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:56,669 DENISE ELLIS: then it's about being able to recognise the 446 00:18:56,670 --> 00:18:59,689 DENISE ELLIS: signs of child exploitation, 447 00:18:59,690 --> 00:19:02,689 DENISE ELLIS: to identify the risks, the 448 00:19:02,690 --> 00:19:05,819 DENISE ELLIS: harm and to disrupt those offenders. 449 00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:08,859 DENISE ELLIS: I think that's the most important thing. 450 00:19:08,860 --> 00:19:10,819 DENISE ELLIS: You know, rather than the focus being on 451 00:19:10,820 --> 00:19:13,899 DENISE ELLIS: somebody who is shoplifting 452 00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:17,859 DENISE ELLIS: or who is carrying drugs or weapons, 453 00:19:17,860 --> 00:19:20,479 DENISE ELLIS: who is it that's targeted these young 454 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,159 DENISE ELLIS: people? The focus has to be on them and 455 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,419 DENISE ELLIS: disrupting their chain and line 456 00:19:26,420 --> 00:19:28,579 DENISE ELLIS: of exploitation. 457 00:19:28,580 --> 00:19:30,819 DENISE ELLIS: It's about supporting frontline 458 00:19:30,820 --> 00:19:33,909 DENISE ELLIS: practitioners and promoting collaborative 459 00:19:33,910 --> 00:19:35,869 DENISE ELLIS: opportunities. 460 00:19:35,870 --> 00:19:38,429 DENISE ELLIS: Anyone working with young people has a 461 00:19:38,430 --> 00:19:41,429 DENISE ELLIS: crucial role in dealing with 462 00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:44,489 DENISE ELLIS: incidents when they happen and immediately, 463 00:19:44,490 --> 00:19:46,749 DENISE ELLIS: and again, it's that timeline. 464 00:19:46,750 --> 00:19:50,029 DENISE ELLIS: The earlier you can intervene and 465 00:19:50,030 --> 00:19:54,049 DENISE ELLIS: disrupt these exploitive behaviours, 466 00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:57,749 DENISE ELLIS: the more valuable that is for uncovering 467 00:19:57,750 --> 00:19:59,689 DENISE ELLIS: child exploitation. 468 00:19:59,690 --> 00:20:02,309 DENISE ELLIS: Everyone who engages with children has a 469 00:20:02,310 --> 00:20:03,869 DENISE ELLIS: part to play. 470 00:20:03,870 --> 00:20:06,509 DENISE ELLIS: Sometimes people just think it's children's 471 00:20:06,510 --> 00:20:09,169 DENISE ELLIS: services. You know, the family need a social 472 00:20:09,170 --> 00:20:12,929 DENISE ELLIS: worker. It's not just social services. 473 00:20:12,930 --> 00:20:16,529 DENISE ELLIS: Everyone has a role to play in listening and 474 00:20:16,530 --> 00:20:20,989 DENISE ELLIS: acting on those concerns. 475 00:20:20,990 --> 00:20:22,989 DENISE ELLIS: Some people may have been sitting on 476 00:20:22,990 --> 00:20:25,469 DENISE ELLIS: concerns for more than six months. 477 00:20:25,470 --> 00:20:27,319 DENISE ELLIS: It's never too late. 478 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:29,399 DENISE ELLIS: That would be my message. That would my key 479 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,459 DENISE ELLIS: message. It's never too late to report abuse 480 00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:35,519 DENISE ELLIS: or to report any concerns that 481 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:36,859 DENISE ELLIS: you have. 482 00:20:36,860 --> 00:20:39,739 DENISE ELLIS: So for the young girl who was 12, who 483 00:20:39,740 --> 00:20:42,659 DENISE ELLIS: travelled on that train and who felt that 484 00:20:42,660 --> 00:20:45,519 DENISE ELLIS: she was invisible; we shouldn't let young 485 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,759 DENISE ELLIS: people be invisible. 486 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,679 DENISE ELLIS: They are at risk if they 487 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,399 DENISE ELLIS: are being exploited. 488 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,129 DENISE ELLIS: They may not know it. 489 00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:56,789 DENISE ELLIS: Like I said before, it may seem just normal 490 00:20:56,790 --> 00:20:59,829 DENISE ELLIS: behaviour for them, but if 491 00:20:59,830 --> 00:21:02,829 DENISE ELLIS: they are being coerced or controlled 492 00:21:02,830 --> 00:21:06,549 DENISE ELLIS: or paid or isolated 493 00:21:06,550 --> 00:21:09,289 DENISE ELLIS: because they're not allowed to go anywhere 494 00:21:09,290 --> 00:21:12,529 DENISE ELLIS: until that person who's controlling 495 00:21:12,530 --> 00:21:14,549 DENISE ELLIS: them says they can. 496 00:21:14,550 --> 00:21:15,999 DENISE ELLIS: That's abuse. 497 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:17,699 PRODUCER: Absolutely, and I think we need to be really 498 00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:20,759 PRODUCER: clear here that child criminal exploitation of 499 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,080 PRODUCER: any kind is a form of child abuse. 500 00:21:24,420 --> 00:21:26,339 PRODUCER: Tara, please can you go into a bit more detail 501 00:21:26,340 --> 00:21:28,559 PRODUCER: about the work that the police does with 502 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,159 PRODUCER: children who are experiencing child criminal 503 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:32,299 PRODUCER: exploitation? 504 00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:35,399 TARA MELLOWES: I can only speak for the way that my 505 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,319 TARA MELLOWES: force works; other forces have very 506 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:38,999 TARA MELLOWES: different ways of working. 507 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,099 TARA MELLOWES: So from my perspective, the support that we 508 00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:45,479 TARA MELLOWES: provide is from a context of if 509 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,659 TARA MELLOWES: that child's been involved in criminal 510 00:21:47,660 --> 00:21:49,779 TARA MELLOWES: activity, they've been involved in criminal 511 00:21:49,780 --> 00:21:53,599 TARA MELLOWES: exploitation, and there is an element of 512 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:54,999 TARA MELLOWES: disruption that could be done for that 513 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,379 TARA MELLOWES: child, there's an element of disrupting the 514 00:21:57,380 --> 00:21:59,699 TARA MELLOWES: perpetrators, that's my role and that's 515 00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:01,799 TARA MELLOWES: what I would seek to do to protect that 516 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,019 TARA MELLOWES: child but also to protect other children 517 00:22:04,020 --> 00:22:05,819 TARA MELLOWES: from those perpetrators. 518 00:22:05,820 --> 00:22:08,279 TARA MELLOWES: I can either do that with or without a 519 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,359 TARA MELLOWES: child's support. Those are the tools that 520 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:13,319 TARA MELLOWES: are given to me to be able to take that 521 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,139 TARA MELLOWES: down the criminal justice route. 522 00:22:15,140 --> 00:22:17,539 TARA MELLOWES: I'm a police officer so I look to go down 523 00:22:17,540 --> 00:22:19,619 TARA MELLOWES: that route because that's what my job role 524 00:22:19,620 --> 00:22:22,659 TARA MELLOWES: entails. But there's also an element of 525 00:22:22,660 --> 00:22:25,559 TARA MELLOWES: support with regards to being able 526 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,759 TARA MELLOWES: to bring other professionals in to be able 527 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,739 TARA MELLOWES: to help that child, to be able to tap 528 00:22:30,740 --> 00:22:33,239 TARA MELLOWES: into different resources, normally from a 529 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,039 TARA MELLOWES: social care perspective, but there's also 530 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,399 TARA MELLOWES: some really fantastic charities up and down 531 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,399 TARA MELLOWES: the country that specialise in support 532 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,139 TARA MELLOWES: that can be given to that child. 533 00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:45,159 TARA MELLOWES: When I step away from my role or the 534 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,739 TARA MELLOWES: criminal justice element has been 535 00:22:47,740 --> 00:22:50,439 TARA MELLOWES: finalised, I have resources to be able to 536 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,999 TARA MELLOWES: direct towards that child to be able to 537 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,239 TARA MELLOWES: support the overarching and the longer 538 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,539 TARA MELLOWES: term support, if that makes sense. 539 00:23:00,540 --> 00:23:02,079 TARA MELLOWES: All forces have Working Together 540 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,099 TARA MELLOWES: strategies, so if we've got a child that's 541 00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:06,999 TARA MELLOWES: starting to come under the radar — whether 542 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,359 TARA MELLOWES: that's under police radar or whether that's 543 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,579 TARA MELLOWES: under radar of social care, schools or 544 00:23:11,580 --> 00:23:14,279 TARA MELLOWES: professionals — we have a process where 545 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,319 TARA MELLOWES: that concern is flagged up and then 546 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,179 TARA MELLOWES: all of the agencies that are involved with 547 00:23:19,180 --> 00:23:21,539 TARA MELLOWES: that child come together. 548 00:23:21,540 --> 00:23:23,579 TARA MELLOWES: We look at where the threat might be, we 549 00:23:23,580 --> 00:23:26,519 TARA MELLOWES: look at what's going on and 550 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,299 TARA MELLOWES: have a think about who is best placed to be 551 00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:31,599 TARA MELLOWES: able to do that, what you were talking 552 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,319 TARA MELLOWES: about with the early intervention. 553 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,199 TARA MELLOWES: Sometimes it's the early intervention from 554 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:36,499 TARA MELLOWES: a police perspective. 555 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:38,679 TARA MELLOWES: We have a team of detectives, we have team 556 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,579 TARA MELLOWES: of uniformed officers — PCs if you 557 00:23:41,580 --> 00:23:43,099 TARA MELLOWES: like, although they don't wear their uniform 558 00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:45,859 TARA MELLOWES: when they support the children — but they 559 00:23:45,860 --> 00:23:48,859 TARA MELLOWES: are kind of a resource to be able to go 560 00:23:48,860 --> 00:23:50,119 TARA MELLOWES: and visit children. 561 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:52,679 TARA MELLOWES: They'll build a rapport with that child, 562 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,399 TARA MELLOWES: they will go and have a chat, they will 563 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,639 TARA MELLOWES: visit and they're just effectively a go-to 564 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,239 TARA MELLOWES: point for that child. 565 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,879 TARA MELLOWES: If that ends up with the child being able 566 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,019 TARA MELLOWES: to talk more about what's happened to them 567 00:24:05,020 --> 00:24:07,799 TARA MELLOWES: to the police officer, or they may find it 568 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,119 TARA MELLOWES: easier to talk to a social care 569 00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:12,259 TARA MELLOWES: professional that's been put in to support 570 00:24:12,260 --> 00:24:13,950 TARA MELLOWES: as well, there's 571 00:24:15,310 --> 00:24:17,779 TARA MELLOWES: both areas of support there. 572 00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:19,859 PRODUCER: Thanks Tara. It's really interesting to get an 573 00:24:19,860 --> 00:24:22,899 PRODUCER: insight into how the police respond to criminal 574 00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:24,639 PRODUCER: exploitation. 575 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,179 PRODUCER: Now, obviously the police is just one avenue for 576 00:24:27,180 --> 00:24:29,399 PRODUCER: support with this issue. 577 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,959 PRODUCER: Denise, where else can people go to for support 578 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,879 PRODUCER: if they are concerned that a child they know or 579 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,349 PRODUCER: work with is being criminally exploited? 580 00:24:38,350 --> 00:24:41,269 DENISE ELLIS: So anyone who's got concern for a child, 581 00:24:41,270 --> 00:24:44,249 DENISE ELLIS: I would say reach out sooner 582 00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:45,629 DENISE ELLIS: rather than later. 583 00:24:45,630 --> 00:24:48,569 DENISE ELLIS: They can reach out to their statutory 584 00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:51,969 DENISE ELLIS: agencies, which is children's services or 585 00:24:51,970 --> 00:24:55,509 DENISE ELLIS: the police. They can reach out to 586 00:24:55,510 --> 00:24:57,149 DENISE ELLIS: their education. 587 00:24:57,150 --> 00:24:59,629 DENISE ELLIS: So if they're in school, to the head 588 00:24:59,630 --> 00:25:02,289 DENISE ELLIS: teacher. Speak to the designated 589 00:25:02,290 --> 00:25:04,749 DENISE ELLIS: safeguarding officer at the school. 590 00:25:04,750 --> 00:25:08,069 DENISE ELLIS: Every school should have a designated 591 00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:09,649 DENISE ELLIS: safeguarding officer. 592 00:25:09,650 --> 00:25:12,749 DENISE ELLIS: Speak to their local GP 593 00:25:12,750 --> 00:25:15,789 DENISE ELLIS: or health services in regards 594 00:25:15,790 --> 00:25:19,189 DENISE ELLIS: to if they feel that there's any sexual 595 00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:20,949 DENISE ELLIS: exploitation. 596 00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:23,548 DENISE ELLIS: The NSPCC Helpline, there is also Childline, 597 00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:26,529 DENISE ELLIS: there are legal services. 598 00:25:26,530 --> 00:25:29,549 DENISE ELLIS: There is support out there. 599 00:25:29,550 --> 00:25:31,233 DENISE ELLIS: You might feel that you're the only one. 600 00:25:31,234 --> 00:25:34,149 DENISE ELLIS: You might feel that you don't want to get 601 00:25:34,150 --> 00:25:35,889 DENISE ELLIS: anybody into trouble. 602 00:25:35,890 --> 00:25:38,789 DENISE ELLIS: What you are doing by reaching out, you are 603 00:25:38,790 --> 00:25:40,209 DENISE ELLIS: safeguarding. 604 00:25:40,210 --> 00:25:43,089 DENISE ELLIS: You are being the voice of that young person 605 00:25:43,090 --> 00:25:45,969 DENISE ELLIS: who may not have a voice or who may have 606 00:25:45,970 --> 00:25:49,169 DENISE ELLIS: lost their voice or who maybe so scared 607 00:25:49,170 --> 00:25:50,669 DENISE ELLIS: to reach out. 608 00:25:50,670 --> 00:25:53,649 DENISE ELLIS: They're hoping that someone who is 609 00:25:53,650 --> 00:25:56,589 DENISE ELLIS: a protective factor to them steps in 610 00:25:56,590 --> 00:25:58,969 DENISE ELLIS: and says, "enough is enough. 611 00:25:58,970 --> 00:26:00,449 DENISE ELLIS: I'm here to help. 612 00:26:00,450 --> 00:26:02,309 DENISE ELLIS: I'm hear to listen. 613 00:26:02,310 --> 00:26:03,949 DENISE ELLIS: I'm not here to judge. 614 00:26:03,950 --> 00:26:06,279 DENISE ELLIS: I'm not here to blame. 615 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,259 DENISE ELLIS: It's not your fault, let me help you." 616 00:26:09,260 --> 00:26:12,619 DENISE ELLIS: So the more that people do that, 617 00:26:12,620 --> 00:26:15,059 DENISE ELLIS: the more opportunity and the chance that 618 00:26:15,060 --> 00:26:17,919 DENISE ELLIS: we've got to reach out and safeguard more 619 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,079 DENISE ELLIS: young people at risk. 620 00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:22,609 PRODUCER: Thank you. I think that's the perfect message to 621 00:26:22,610 --> 00:26:24,789 PRODUCER: end our discussion on today. 622 00:26:24,790 --> 00:26:27,489 PRODUCER: Thank you, Denise and Tara for taking part in 623 00:26:27,490 --> 00:26:29,969 PRODUCER: this podcast. If you're listening and you want 624 00:26:29,970 --> 00:26:33,329 PRODUCER: to learn more about child criminal exploitation, 625 00:26:33,330 --> 00:26:36,049 PRODUCER: we have a suite of resources, including a new 626 00:26:36,050 --> 00:26:39,289 PRODUCER: elearning course on county lines, available on 627 00:26:39,290 --> 00:26:41,989 PRODUCER: the NSPCC Learning website. 628 00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:43,729 PRODUCER: Check the podcast shownotes for more 629 00:26:43,730 --> 00:26:45,549 PRODUCER: information. Thanks for listening. 630 00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:52,059 OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning 631 00:26:52,060 --> 00:26:53,459 OUTRO: Podcast. 632 00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:55,959 OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content 633 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,719 OUTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and 634 00:26:58,720 --> 00:26:59,860 OUTRO: child protection is ever-changing. 635 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,099 OUTRO: So if you're looking for the most current 636 00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:05,859 OUTRO: safeguarding and child protection training, 637 00:27:05,860 --> 00:27:08,959 OUTRO: information or resources, please visit our 638 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,884 OUTRO: website for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.