Mark Tebbs: Hello and welcome to the Mind the Kids podcast series. I'm Mark Tebbs, I'm your host for today. I've kind of spent my whole career working in mental health from frontline services through to kind of director of mental health commissioning in the charity sector, NHS and social care. I'm currently chief executive of a infrastructure charity. So I'm really interested in how we kind of support grassroots organizations and that kind of community impact. And I guess that background in commissioning kind of makes me really interested in around how we understand need, lived experience, evidence of practice, and how we really measure impact and value for money. And I'm also a parent and, you know, have seen the system from a kind of parent's perspective too. So I'm really delighted to be hosting the podcast. In these episodes, we have the opportunity to talk to researchers and practitioners about their research. It's an opportunity to talk and shine a light on some of the latest developments in children adolescent mental health research. Today, I'm going to be talking about nature connectedness. So how nature connectedness supports learning and wellbeing and how we can create opportunities for that felt experience. So I'm delighted to be joined by Nicole Harris, who's the lead author of a recent systematic literature review on nature connectedness. Nicole, it's great to be speaking with you.
Dr. Nicole Harris: Mark is really, really lovely to be here. Thank you for asking me in.
Mark Tebbs: Great stuff. So let's start with some introduction. So if you could tell us kind of maybe where you work and some of your kind of research interests.
Dr. Nicole Harris: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm Nicole Harris. I currently work at Portsmouth City Council as an educational psychologist, and I'm a visiting academic at the University of Southampton, which is where I studied to become an educational psychologist.
Mark Tebbs: So part of my role at the moment is I'm chief executive of infrastructure charity. And we work with a lot of charity and community groups that work in space around nature connectedness, mental wellbeing for young people. And I guess one of the things we hear quite a lot is how difficult it is to, especially when trying to work with schools, how difficult it is to kind of get on the curriculum, how pressured that curriculum space is. So I'd like a little bit of an elevator pitch. So if you had some school head teachers and you're trying to really sell the importance of nature connectedness and its impact on kind of learning and behavior, then how would you do that?
Dr. Nicole Harris: Absolutely. And I think in a way that is the reason for the area that I did study, which was on the behaviors for learning, was to try and give another sort of hook for head teacher. So I guess my elevator pitch would be that nature supports optimum development in so many ways. The more we look, the more we discover about how being in nature sort of influences our physical and our mental health. And that this systematic literature review showed just how many different ways there are to support increased nature connectedness which then also improves behaviors for learning. So in a nutshell, that having opportunities to connect with nature as being part of the national curriculum would help our young people connect with nature. It would be better for their wellbeing. It would be better for their ability to learn and engage with learning. And it would be better for the planet. So it's just win, win, win really.
Mark Tebbs: Brilliant, great, great pitch. And it feels intuitively right as part of my preparation for the podcast I went for a walk, and it's kind of, you know, being in nature just kind of grounds, grounds are so much, I think. yeah, so let's get into that, into a little bit more detail. so what do we exactly mean by nature connectedness in the context of child and adolescent development and why is it so important?
Dr. Nicole Harris: So nature connectedness, when we talk about nature connectedness, we're typically talking about a relationship, a felt relationship with nature. And we see this as something different from time in nature or sort of exposure to green space, which isn't to say that time in nature or exposure to green space aren't good in and of themselves. But when we're talking about nature connectedness, it's much more a felt relationship. And we can think about that with people as well. We can be in a shared space with people you know, at home or in an open plan office and not necessarily feel that we have a relationship with them. So that's really where nature connectedness, I guess, differs as a construct. And I would say that there's, with linking nature connectedness to behaviors for learning, I think this is sort of quite a nascent area of research. And so starting to look into that. We've typically a lot of the research has tried to ground it in a couple of different psychological theories. So they've looked at sort of attention restoration theory or Ulrich's stress reduction theory, biofilia hypothesis from Wilson. And if we think that certain aspects of, say, behavior for learning, like attention, could link quite logically to something like attention restoration theory, or the aspects of well-being could link quite well to stress reduction theory, if we're thinking about how it links to learning, we're sort of opening up the door, I believe, a bit more on some of the unknowns that the sort of the core theories that we have been using, including nature connectedness, don't necessarily tap into all of the areas where we might see how it could influence behaviors for learning. So that's one of the, avenues that so one of the co-authors on the paper with me, Bea Hartwell and I are exploring is whether if we look at it more from sort of a neuroception and Stephen Poreges' Polyvagal theory, whether that as an underpinning theory may speak slightly more to how nature connectedness does influence behaviors for learning.
Mark Tebbs: Okay, so could you unpack that a little bit? You mentioned the Polyvagal theory some people might not be familiar with that.
Dr. Nicole Harris: Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, it's something that we are just starting to explore. So, neuroception and polyvagal theories is very much about sort of, it's our nervous system and our fight flight response. And the idea being that if we are in fight flight, if we're in a heightened state, you know, we're not in a fit state to learn, you our body is in that like runaway, stay safe, not sort of the rest and digest, not the ability to be social, not the ability to engage with the prefrontal cortex really. So it's almost sort of bringing more aspects of nature and how that can allow us to attune with our almost with our inner nature using the outer nature and with that sort of down regulating our nervous system, calming internally so that we can engage with learning. So like I said, that's currently what we are looking into to see whether that could be a better theory in which to ground how nature connectedness does influence behaviors for learning.
Mark Tebbs: Okay, so is that a sense that a kind of disconnection with nature is a line to maybe a disconnection with self and learn?
Dr. Nicole Harris: Yeah, I think we are, that is what we're sort of definitely feeling our way into. I know we're almost sort of starting with it, with a tail end here, because we haven't actually really sort of spoken that much about what the paper found, but I think, you know, going at this from, from, we really, really have, absolutely. So the systematic literature review was really sort of dipping our toe in the water to see whether there was actually evidence that connecting children with nature could have an influence on behaviors for learning. And the short answer to that was yes, that there was a lot of evidence to show this. 68 % of the papers found that the activities designed to increase nature connectedness in children and young people did increase nature connectedness. Interestingly, 77 % of studies saw an impact on behaviors for learning. So we were seeing a positive impact on behaviors for learning, even where we didn't necessarily see an impact on nature connectedness. So with that, and I guess myself quite naively going into the research at the outset, and this feeds into the theories, the main theories underpinning a lot of nature connectedness research, the thought that I would see a lot of evidence for improved attention, improved engagement that aspect of sort of behaviors for learning. But if we consider that behaviors for learning exist across like a broader spectrum, there's the cognitive aspect, absolutely, but there's also the social aspect and there's the emotional aspect. And what a lot of the research that was coming back from the systematic literature review was really showing the main impact was actually on social skills. And then the second main impact as it were, was on self-regulation. So really, really seeing an impact on areas that I wouldn't have necessarily have thought to look for, but this is very much what the papers were showing. And for me, what was super interesting with this as well was that... A lot of the evidence was from qualitative studies. So it wasn't like they were stating what they were going out and looking for. They were just asking for feedback in terms of what was seen, which is why I think we do get such a broad range of behaviors for learning that have come back. Because I think if we had done it as a quantitative study and just asked for feedback on something like attention, we possibly wouldn't have, we would have missed a huge amount of what the impact of these nature connectedness activities actually delivered to the young people. So starting it there at the tail end with the results of the systematic literature review where we were really seeing sort of a huge impact on social skills and on self-regulation, feeling that, you know, attention restoration theory, stress reduction theory didn't necessarily hold all of what we were seeing. So it was trying to go back sort of more generally to the literature, to our understanding of sort of body mind, all of, you know, this sort of embodied learning and feeling that in this context, something like a polyvagal theory where you are, you are calming that nervous system response where you are then in a frame of mind where you can engage socially. So what we're seeing with the, with the improved social skills and where you have a better understanding and better control over your body. So the self-regulation skills may well explain the improvements on behavior for learning that we're seeing.
Mark Tebbs: Fascinating. So I'm going to row us back a little bit because we've have dived in. So could you just describe when we're sort of building up that picture around what we mean? What are some of those practical, low cost ways that kind of groups, schools can deliberately foster nature connectedness in children and young people?
Dr. Nicole Harris: Yeah, absolutely. And this is what again was really interesting about the systematic literature review. It was just the huge variety of activities that schools were delivering. So if I start by saying like in a way the purpose of the literature review at the outset was to try and find what schools were actually delivering on school sites. So this really would have been sort of a useful guide for what schools could reasonably replicate. But there was very little in the literature in terms of activities that had been carried out on school sites. So it was broadened out that little bit to sort of include any educational setting. And then with that, it had to be activities where one of the markers, the data that they were seeking to collect was actually on nature connectedness. So again, it's not to say that there are other schools and centres carrying out sort of a wider range of activities, but sort of one of the keys from our point of view was to look whether they were collecting data on nature connectedness and on behaviours for learning. So that being said, there was a huge variety of different activities. know, so some young people were taken surfing, you know, on the south coast of England. Some young people were hiking in Scotland.There were some taking place in Southern Africa. But if we look at the activities that were sort of very implementable on a school site, we saw a lot of things like playing in nature. We saw things like getting your hands dirty, literally getting your hands dirty, connecting with the microbiome, with the dirt and the leaves and bits and pieces like that. There were art-based activities, so doing things like sunlight photography. There was another one in Canada, again, about sort of using, so as opposed to sunlight photography, where you're using the sun to take pictures, using actual cameras to take pictures of nature, that elicited an emotional connection with you. But a lot of it was about going out and trying to build a connection. And sometimes that's just starting with as simply as... laying in the grass and paying attention to what you can see, paying attention to what you can hear, you know, just being present in that moment, being mindful in that moment and trying to build that, build that connection. So what I'm saying, a huge range of activities, there was art based ones where you're sort of working with nature to create sort of art installations. There was things like songwriting in nature. There were things like playing in nature. There were, yeah, a whole spectrum of activities that didn't necessarily involve, and this is what we were really, really keen to show, it didn't necessarily involve being in deepest, darkest wild nature. You know, sort of rainforests of Western Canada, as you will, you know, that these schools were using bits of nature that were accessible to them, either on their school site, you know, some schools clearly have... access to much better green space than others, but even the ones where there was a lot of sort of tar-macked yards, could build raised beds. Some of them were digging up bits of their yard so that they could put in a pond. Some of them were sort of managing bits of woodland that they hadn't sought to use before. So was almost, you know, bits of the school ground that had been fenced off that they're now creating access to. Or there were schools that hadallotments next door or would have a churchyard next door.
Mark Tebbs: So a huge range of activities, a huge range of opportunities. Yeah, and opportunities for kind of schools to be creative in their local environment. So what are some of the challenges that schools face in trying to develop those opportunities?
Dr. Nicole Harris: Yeah. So my research didn't necessarily look at that, but I know there is research recently done by, I think, Amy Patchen, who very much did look at what are sort of the barriers to sort of outdoor education in young people. And I think what they found were, I guess in many ways, the not surprising things, the time, you know, literally having time in the day, the curriculum pressures, you know, schools are under such pressure to deliver. There were things like you know, the risk, health and safety, we're taking children outside, you my goodness, they might get wet or muddy or dirty. But you know, there are realities with that. There can be stings, there can be, you know, sunburn, things like that. But I would argue probably not necessarily much more than what most children would be exposed to when they're out playing at lunchtime or break anyway. But I think what was interesting, what she found was one of the key takeaways is that it's not necessarily the individual barriers in a school that are the problem, it's the overlapping of the barriers. So it can be quite easy to unpick them one at a time. So it can be quite easy, for instance, to find time in the day for one class to go outside, but how do you find time across the week for all classes in a school to go outside? Because of course, like at time, like say lunchtime, everyone is out at the same time and you're not managing that experience in quite the same way as you might be able to do if you go out as a single class. So if you do have a small woodland area where you'd like to do sort of some specific activities in, how are you literally timetabling that across the day, across the week so that everyone has equitable access to that? Yeah, so I think, you

That was the key takeaway, I think, from her paper that you have to do a systems approach to it, that it's not necessarily an easy solve, that you need to simultaneously be looking at all of the barriers and looking to resolve them almost simultaneously. But there's no reason why it's not doable. These things are hard until they're done and then I think they're done. And I think the other takeaway was that the barriers are quite often school specific. Some of them, of course, will overlap, like the curriculum demands but some of them are sort of more specific to the schools.
Mark Tebbs: I guess there's an inequality aspect to this in terms of people from more deprived areas have less access to kind of green space. So it feels like there needs to be some work in that policy and practice implementation space. We're going to, you know, think about it from that perspective too.
Dr. Nicole Harris: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think the research shows that, you know, children and young people from more deprived areas have nine percent less access to green spaces. And that's one of the main areas why we'd really love to see sort of opportunities to connect with nature as being part of the school curriculum. You know, it makes it equitable for all children and young people. And in that way, you're then sort of trying to centralize sort of a green space, a green ability to connect making it something that all children and young people can benefit from. There's really strong evidence that shows that the link between being connected to nature as a child that follows through, you then remain an adult who has strong nature connectedness. Typically, we would then see that that works the other way around as well, isn't it? That nature connectedness is something that parents can pass on to their children. But if that isn't actually happening, if that is what has been broken, then to reverse that cycle, we do need to start developing that sense of nature connectedness in young children so that they do grow up to be adults who are connected to nature, who then pass that on to their children to build that back into our way of being.
Mark Tebbs: Yeah, we've just had the psychiatric morbidity survey released in June and it really talked about the rising mental health problems, particularly in girls. So I just wondered, was there anything in the systematic review which picked up on that gender aspect?
Dr. Nicole Harris: So nothing that I picked up in this paper, I have written another paper which sort of looked at how wellbeing decreases from primary school as you head into secondary school and through secondary school, how nature connectedness also decreases through primary school into secondary school. So there seems to be a bit of a pivot point around the age of 11 at which nature connectedness starts to change. There's a lot of evidence that shows that being strongly connected to nature is actually linked to wellbeing, to positive wellbeing. So there's been sort of, you know, quite a few studies, especially in adults, sort of promoting nature connectedness as a way of improving wellbeing. So again, in terms of sort of my research, looking to improve nature connectedness in young people as a way to conceivably offset that decrease in wellbeing as you then ride through the sort of the bumpy low well-being period of secondary school before you come out the other side. So there would be, you know, which is another really, really strong argument of trying to get nature connectedness programs into primary school so that we're getting, you know, that nature connectedness as high as we can, as early as we can, that we're then buffering, hopefully declines in well-being going into secondary school. And sort of tying back to what you were saying about difference in ages, I think what that sort of the papers that I was looking at showed was that girls quite often have lower wellbeing going through secondary school. But interestingly, boys have lower nature connectedness. So in a weird way, sort of you have the potential to benefit both boys and girls from almost different points of view and that you can be using increasing nature connectedness to shore up the wellbeing of girls. But equally, you can also use the programs to increase the nature connectedness of boys, which has historically been lower than girls. So it does have potential impacts to have great positive impacts on both in slightly different ways.
Mark Tebbs: Okay, And I'm also interested in that special educational needs perspective. there, was anything in the systematic review that picked up on their particular needs?
Dr. Nicole Harris: So not so much, although I know there have been sort of other papers that have picked up on it a little bit. I don't think there's been a huge amount of research. I think I was reading from someone that there isn't a huge amount of research into nature connectedness and children with special educational needs and disabilities. I guess I would have a wonder around that. And within educational psychology, we quite often try and push back that little bit in that sort of saying that, you know, good teaching benefits all learners, you know, so that in a way, in adopting an inclusive practice, why would we segregate? And in this way, I would equally say that the opportunity to connect with nature benefits all learners. So would we want to focus on one particular group? I would also bring to that, as an educational psychologist, right now, so many of the schools and so many of the young people that I'm being asked to work with have difficulties with emotional regulation. You know, we're seeing a lot of really, really dysregulated children in schools. And, you know, we're now labeling them almost as special educational needs and disability, you know, to ensure that they get the support that they need. But is this, strictly speaking, you know, an educational need or a disability, or are these children that really just need support to connect with themselves, you know, to be able to sort of emotionally regulate, to feel better? in and of themselves. So I guess that's a really sort of long way round of saying that I imagine there probably are benefits to it. And that is, again, with the Hartwell thesis that we're supervising right now, where Imogen Gray is working with five different schools, and she is looking at small groups of children who do struggle with emotional regulation to see more specifically how it may impact on them. So I don't have a direct answer to that. is something that we are working on. I know sort of extending this a little bit back, feeding back to what you were saying about, you know, barriers to introducing sort of nature connectedness activities in schools. I know that I think it was Amy Patchen again, her research showed that actually sometimes teachers almost take their children out less frequently to ensure equitable access to the outdoors. And because quite often children with special education needs and disabilities are withdrawn from classes for specialist intervention, that this is another one of the sort of the systemic barriers that if you haven't, if your children are out of class quite regularly, they may well actually be missing out on it. So some teachers are making the choice of not going out so that none of the children miss out if that makes sense. So again, it's something systemically that schools would need to look at as to, you know, if the class was going outside to make sure that none of the interventions were taking place in that time to ensure that actually everyone could go out.
Mark Tebbs: Yeah, it sounds like it has the potential to be really an inclusive part of the curriculum that actually benefits, everyone in potentially different ways.
Dr. Nicole Harris: And I think with this, and this is what I've sort of seen, I guess, you know, anecdotally is that, you know, when I used to work in a secondary school, when we took the kids out who did struggle with being in a class, who did struggle with sitting still, who did struggle with attention and impulsivity, and you took them outside where they were allowed to be, you know, the skills that those children displayed was huge. They came into their own and things like their leadership ability or their organisational skills or their enthusiasm. yeah, it lets children shine in a way that maybe they can't always do in class. And that in terms of self-esteem is a huge motivator.
Mark Tebbs: You mentioned earlier a little bit about the climate crisis. I'm just wondering about the connection to ecological anxiety. I think we see that as part of the mixture of mental health and wellbeing concerns that young people have. Is there a connection between or is there an opportunity around nature connectedness and that eco-anxiety?
Dr. Nicole Harris: Yeah, I believe so. I mean, I think there's, there's two elements to that. And it is, I think, necessary to acknowledge that, you know, feeling connected to nature may make you more prone to equal anxiety and climate anxiety. You know, this is hardly surprising if, you know, if you feel strongly connected to something and you see it being sort of abused and not cared for, that really can elicit feelings of depression and anxiety and unhappiness. So, you know, 100%, there is the potential for that correlation. On a more positive note, you know, there is a lot of evidence in the literature that shows that increasing nature connectedness increases pro-environmental behaviours. So you're more likely to get people acting in a way that is planet kind, you know, is looking after their planetary wellbeing. So increasing nature connectedness, hopefully in the long run, like I will have a more positive impact. And I think there's the idea too, as well, that with opportunities to come together and that sense of collective agency and collective action where you have children who then maybe do feel part of a group, where you are working together to promote change, that you might get that little bit of hope that comes from that. you know, coming together as a class to connect with nature, you're connecting with potentially other like-minded children, you're no longer feeling so alone. You are getting more of that hopefully collective action, which is building sense of agency, which is then hopefully building sense of hope. I think a lot of young people as well feel particularly despondent because there's a sense that adults aren't doing anything. So if you get schools who are facilitating this, maybe there is that bit of a sense of some people are trying to do something. And there's also the potential for it being a space that you can share how you are feeling, know, so that again, you're not feeling sort of alone in that despondency that you are with adults and peers who can maybe help you hold those feelings, express those feelings and work through them and work with it. So I think it's a complex one in that, you know, it has the potential to increase feelings of eco anxiety and despondency. But equally, it can also flip that and make more people more climate aware, engaged in more pro-environmental behaviors and to carry that through then into adulthood that is something that then sticks.
Mark Tebbs: Yeah, so something that has to be really carefully managed, the potential for it to raise anxieties as you kind of feel more connected, but also, the opportunity for it to make you feel a little bit more powerful that you can change things at that kind of like local level with peers.
Dr. Nicole Harris: Yeah, absolutely.
Mark Tebbs: It'd be really useful just to kind of broaden this out a little bit. So I'm just wondering what role nature connectedness could play in a wider strategic context and particularly mindful around the epidemic in mental health concerns we've got at the moment in young people.
Dr. Nicole Harris: So I think in terms of supporting wellbeing, like I said, there's a huge evidence base around how initiatives to increase nature connectedness in adults supports adult wellbeing. And there's a growing evidence base in children and young people showing something similar. So again, this is coming back when we're talking about sort of the underpinning theories, I think we're looking at it quite often from, you know, stress reduction theory. We're also looking at it from like biofilia hypothesis that, you know, we very much, evolved as part of nature. You know, there's an attitude right now where we're talking about nature disconnection. But the truth is we are a part of nature. Nature connectedness isn't a new thing. The element that's new is the disconnection from nature. And like we were talking about earlier, the disconnection from ourselves as well. So Bea and I refer to sort of our inner nature as well as our outer nature. I think, you know, programs or initiatives that really support us, it is almost just engaging with ourselves, like the who we are, who we evolved to be, how we evolved to be, you know, we have been modern humanity for a very, very small dot of time, if we think of sort of evolution of humanity in the longer term. So coming back in a way to policy and the rest of that, if we have to make it a policy to reconnect with, I guess in a way, how we're meant to be or who we're meant to be or things that work well for us. You know, it is almost like we have just forgotten what is regulating for us. And, you know, we did grow up outside as it were, if we think about that. So it's hardly surprising that Mark, you said, you know, preparing for this, went for a walk outside and I imagine it probably helped you know, sort of calm you down a little bit, tame the squirrely thoughts a little bit. And it does, you know, I think we all have this, we talk quite often about sort of evidence-based practice. And we can flip that to sort of practice-based evidence, you know, when we pay attention to how certain things make us feel. And I think nature connectedness is one of those things. So if we do have to start putting into policy, And that's where I would love to see it to sit, that it does become part of school policy for opportunities to engage outside with nature in a way that promotes nature connectedness. And we have this multitude of benefits. You know, we're getting children outside, we're getting them connecting with nature, we're getting them active, we're getting them connecting with themselves. We've got the knock on benefits of improved well-being, of improved physical health. And, you know, as that final carrot for schools to make room for it in their curriculum, it makes them better learners because, you know, their nervous system is regulated. They can actually engage with learning and they might then hopefully have that motivation to engage with learning as well.
Mark Tebbs: Brilliant. We haven't mentioned sort of technology up to now. I just wondered where it feels like spending time in nature could also be kind part of an entity around getting off screen time as well. And I wonder whether the research explored that at all.
Dr. Nicole Harris: I don't know that I can speak to that directly because I think quite often we get conflicting evidence from the effects of social media, it? There's times where it can be positive and encourage a sense of belonging and then there are equally there can be times where there's negative aspects that we see to it. I think absolutely children and young people are spending much more time inside these days, they're spending much more time online these days. But I also think we need to tread carefully about sort of vilifying technology completely because I think it sometimes is one of those things that we do have to work with. So I know that there are, for instance, apps that you can get on phones, which are about getting children and young people outside and engaging with nature. And in that case, if that's the element that gets them outside and engaging in some way, that I would see that as a positive first step and hopefully leading to them at some stage leaving the phones behind. But equally, seeing taking pictures of nature can be a really strong way of supporting nature connectedness. And most of us would be taking pictures on our phone right now. So that is using technology as a way of engaging. I know for me, one of the ways that I stay connected with my family in Canada is taking pictures of nature and sending them back and forth. And so I wouldn't necessarily, I wouldn't want to say categorically, all technology bad. You know, will I say that yes, children are inside much more? Yes. You know, are they on gadgets much more? Yes. You know, and this has been building for a really, really long time. And I think this is, you know, where Richard Luvin and, you know, the idea of nature disconnectedness has first come in that kids aren't out roaming anymore and sort of playing sort of the unsupervised play. And there's many reasons for this.
Mark Tebbs: So, okay, look, we're coming to the kind of towards the end of the podcast. So I'm really interested to know whether you've got any future research in the field or whether you're aware of any other kind of studies that are kind of exploring some of the issues we've touched on today.
Dr. Nicole Harris: Yeah, we're currently supervising a PhD research right now, which is looking at exploring from Neuroception and Porges's polyvagal lens to see whether that's a way of understanding the impacts that we're seeing. We've also developed a scale which is looking at measuring what we call the sense of self, how self-regulated or how self-aware a young person feels after sort of engaging with nature-connectedness activities. There's a lot of research going on right now in the field of nature-connectedness, which is super, super exciting and super interesting to see, and from different angles. So, you know, we're very much looking at it from the perspective of being educational psychologists and what we can do sort of in schools to help support this from that lens of supporting children engage with learning, be the best that they can be. Yeah, so I think if it is an area that people are interested in nature connectedness, it's definitely sort of a, it's a very lively field at the minute right now. And there's lots of really interesting and really powerful research being carried out.
Mark Tebbs: Yeah, amazing. Is there anything that you wanted to kind of share with our listeners that we haven't covered?
Dr. Nicole Harris: I guess my main takeaway would be for us to move beyond the idea of us not being nature. We are nature. It's been sort of, guess, a very Western view to other things, other than humanity, to put us at the top of all of the trees and to start seeing ourselves as part of that wider world, really. And how important that is actually, that it's not just really you know, a nice thing to think about, but that, you know, for our continued existence, for planetary wellbeing, we really do have to see ourselves as, you know, a cog in the wheel as opposed to, you know, the driver of the boss in this, that we need to, yeah, be more consciously present. We need to value our connection with nature and look after, and through that we're looking after both sort of planetary nature and ourselves.
Mark Tebbs: Nicole, it's been such a fascinating discussion. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a really rich conversation. So thank you very much. Hope listeners you've enjoyed the podcast. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a rating and a review. Thank you very much.
Dr. Nicole Harris: Thanks so much Mark.