Speaker 1: Truth is, there's a much deeper, greater fight going on.

Speaker 1: We know that.

Speaker 1: It's important to know the church's role in

Speaker 2: the fight.

Speaker 2: There are just moments where we have to stay firm and strong

Speaker 2: in our beliefs and in the truth of the Word of God.

Speaker 2: You want to shift sometimes your position and say,

Speaker 2: well, how do we appeal culture because they think this way?

Speaker 2: No, pillars stay strong and firm,

Speaker 2: even

Speaker 3: if things are shifting around us that sometimes want to cause us to shift.

Speaker 3: The winds of culture are always

Speaker 4: blowing

Speaker 3: one direction or another,

Speaker 3: and

Speaker 4: they can

Speaker 3: shift fast.

Speaker 3: In these last even 40 years, we've seen some major cultural winds shifting.

Speaker 3: If there aren't pillars, it just means stuff's going to fall over.

Speaker 1: Scripturally, we know culture is decaying without the spirit of Christ.

Speaker 1: If

Speaker 3: godly folks aren't seeking to influence our culture, influence politics, somebody else is going

Speaker 4: to.

Speaker 4: That's right.

Speaker 3: This is the Made to Advance podcast.

Speaker 3: I'm your host, Brian Aulick.

Speaker 3: We're here to inspire and equip you for your best future.

Speaker 3: Well, welcome, everybody.

Speaker 3: It is so good to be with you.

Speaker 3: And I say this every week, but if you have not yet rated and reviewed Made to Advance,

Speaker 3: you need to do that right now, please.

Speaker 3: It's a huge help to our team.

Speaker 3: And so even hit pause right now and go for it.

Speaker 3: It does help us reach more and more people with the podcast.

Speaker 3: And it also helps us bring on more great guests.

Speaker 3: Well, today I have two of our Engedi pastors back with us. Jordan Humbarger, who's our pastor

Speaker 3: of Young Adults, and Roger Cruz, who is a pastor of Engedi Española here. And we're going to talk

Speaker 3: about what it means to be pillars of truth in today's culture. We're going to get into all

Speaker 3: kinds of interesting topics. We're going to talk about politics, sexuality, and the balance between

Speaker 3: grace and truth. And we're going to try something new today because Pastor Jordan is actually going

Speaker 3: to lead the conversation. So without further ado, let's go. Well, hey guys,

Speaker 1: how we doing?

Speaker 1: Doing good. So good. It's good to be back again. It's fun. Yes,

Speaker 3: it is.

Speaker 1: Little three brother action here going on. I know. I love

Speaker 3: you hosting, man. This is the first

Speaker 3: time. This is a made to advance like a big moment here. We should have like confetti or something.

Speaker 3: I'm always the host and you're going for it, man.

Speaker 1: A little pioneer

Speaker 3: action.

Speaker 1: Well, you know,

Speaker 1: Last time we talked about the spiritual opposition we face in battles, and we're in that series

Speaker 1: of church built for battle,

Speaker 4: where

Speaker 1: Paul writes to Timothy, fight the good fight, stay in it,

Speaker 1: finish strong.

Speaker 1: And it was a fun conversation.

Speaker 1: I figured we'd have a little more fun to start things out about what's maybe like a petty

Speaker 1: fight you've been in recently.

Speaker 1: Let's just keep it real and fun, like a petty fight you've been in recently.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: For me, a lot of my petty fights are sports related.

Speaker 2: Tell me

Speaker 4: why I'm not surprised,

Speaker 2: Roger.

Speaker 2: It's so dumb.

Speaker 2: It's dumb how much I get worked up and how much I make other people feel like what you're talking about is just really dumb.

Speaker 4: So the big thing

Speaker 2: right now is if you're following Sports World, they're talking about who might be the next face of the NBA.

Speaker 2: And so I'm in a group chat with a few friends, and they all have this idea of who the next face is going to be and all that.

Speaker 2: And so I just get really worked up by saying, let's not think about who the next face is

Speaker 2: because we still have Steph Curry and LeBron James in the league.

Speaker 2: And that's who the

Speaker 1: face is right

Speaker 2: now.

Speaker 2: And so anyway, so I just get all worked up and I'm like, you guys are so dumb.

Speaker 2: You don't know sports.

Speaker 2: And I just get very petty

Speaker 1: about it.

Speaker 1: Who's your choice?

Speaker 1: Who is it?

Speaker 1: Who's the face?

Speaker 1: I

Speaker 2: think it's LeBron and Curry.

Speaker 2: And until they retire, we shouldn't even be talking about who the next face of

Speaker 1: the NBA is.

Speaker 1: He's not going there.

Speaker 1: He doesn't want

Speaker 4: to

Speaker 2: start it

Speaker 4: right now.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I know.

Speaker 4: I'm not.

Speaker 4: I swear.

Speaker 4: Do you have

Speaker 3: a face in mind?

Speaker 3: always mj the goat i

Speaker 1: mean no they're

Speaker 3: looking for the next brand

Speaker 1: ambassador yeah do you

Speaker 3: have like

Speaker 3: that's the next generation

Speaker 1: is what he's man i mean everybody loves to you know just glaze on lebron

Speaker 1: just

Speaker 3: lebron

Speaker 2: that

Speaker 1: so i i've curry all the way man yeah

Speaker 2: yeah yeah all the way yeah

Speaker 1: same here but i

Speaker 1: would say the two are

Speaker 2: like right there when you think of like who's made the most change and all

Speaker 2: that so this is why we don't get into this because if we do we're gonna

Speaker 4: be talking about

Speaker 4: This is

Speaker 2: what we're trying to get into.

Speaker 2: So don't get me started, but I got a lot of thoughts on this.

Speaker 2: But anyway.

Speaker 2: Well, I like this question because

Speaker 3: Jordan's like, it doesn't cause me to...

Speaker 3: He's like, I'm not going to talk about my marriage.

Speaker 3: And when I was thinking of petty fights, all I could think of was my marriage.

Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3: But our number one, I think, tension, they have to do with driving things.

Speaker 4: There's probably...

Speaker 4: I can give

Speaker 3: all kinds of driving examples.

Speaker 3: But Christina is the kind of person who, like, if you know that your exit is coming, she

Speaker 3: likes to get in the right lane to exit, you know, like three hours early and just makes

Speaker 3: her feel better that we're over there.

Speaker 3: I want to pass every single person I can before I go.

Speaker 3: I don't know if this is from like Chicago, you're from Chicago, I

Speaker 4: don't know how you

Speaker 3: do

Speaker 3: it, but, and she lived in Chicago with me, but man, I'm like last minute guy.

Speaker 3: And Christina is like, you want to get over it?

Speaker 3: You want to get over.

Speaker 3: And every time we get over and there's some reason why actually it was too early,

Speaker 4: like

Speaker 4: it wasn't the right time.

Speaker 3: And sometimes I'll indulge her.

Speaker 3: I'm like, all right, I'll get over.

Speaker 3: So she's not stressing the whole

Speaker 2: time.

Speaker 3: And then the lane will die and I'll have to get back to the left again.

Speaker 3: And I'm like, see,

Speaker 1: see,

Speaker 3: last minute's better.

Speaker 1: Too early.

Speaker 1: Have you ever had it with the parking?

Speaker 1: Like you're going to Meyers or something and then you have to go park.

Speaker 1: Oh, there's your spot right there.

Speaker 1: And okay, a little too late to tell me, but

Speaker 3: all right.

Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3: A hundred percent.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Do

Speaker 3: you have one come to your mind?

Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 3: I mean, there

Speaker 1: were so many.

Speaker 1: I think of like when I'm hanging out with my boys.

Speaker 1: For some reason, there's always something that will trigger us to just start roasting each other and dogging on each other.

Speaker 4: And it usually

Speaker 1: is when we play cards, like spades or something.

Speaker 1: We just get into it.

Speaker 1: I mean, we slam the cards on the table.

Speaker 1: We just start roasting each other.

Speaker 1: Man, that's why you didn't even get a GED.

Speaker 1: Man,

Speaker 4: that's why your hairline

Speaker 2: is balling and you're

Speaker 1: thinning up.

Speaker 1: You know, we just go at it.

Speaker 1: We just start arguing and getting mad at each other over a card game.

Speaker 4: You cheated.

Speaker 1: I know you were

Speaker 2: giving signals.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 1: yeah.

Speaker 1: That happens every time,

Speaker 2: and it's

Speaker 1: fun every time.

Speaker 1: We love it.

Speaker 1: We

Speaker 2: just love it, man.

Speaker 2: Playing cards.

Speaker 2: That's awesome.

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we have these little petty fights.

Speaker 1: We all do it in life.

Speaker 1: And the truth is there's a much deeper, greater fight going on.

Speaker 1: We know that.

Speaker 1: We talked about it last time.

Speaker 1: And I want to continue that conversation on fighting the good fight.

Speaker 1: And particularly through a verse the Apostle Paul writes in 1 Timothy 3, verse 15, where he says,

Speaker 1: if I'm delayed, I write so that you may know how people must conduct themselves in the household

Speaker 1: of God. This is the church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Speaker 1: And part of the reason Paul chose this text is because it's important to know

Speaker 1: the church's role in the fight. And let's talk about that. I'd

Speaker 4: love to talk about

Speaker 1: that. You know,

Speaker 1: why do you guys think, maybe for you first, Brian, why do you guys think he chose this

Speaker 1: architectural imagery of a pillar to describe the church?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the whole idea of pillars is just such a big theme in the Bible as a whole. In fact,

Speaker 3: right when we were talking about this on Sunday, my wife emailed me, I think it's out of Psalms,

Speaker 3: where it talks about that there'll be a time where the young women are like pillars. And so,

Speaker 3: this image is like a super common one biblically, but the two pillars in front of the Jewish temple

Speaker 3: were very famous for their beauty and their stature and their height. And then this letter

Speaker 3: is being written to people in the city of Ephesus, which literally had one of the most famous

Speaker 3: architectural features in anywhere in the world, which was the Temple of Artemis,

Speaker 3: and it had 167 60-foot pillars. And so, I think he's using that as the reference.

Speaker 3: Now, maybe you want to speak to Roger why that's such an important reference. I don't know.

Speaker 3: You want to speak to the Pillars of Truth thing?

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I think what came to mind, thinking about just metaphorically what a pillar

Speaker 2: means, to me, it stands out as something that is stable and strong. And so, when I was thinking

Speaker 2: about this passage particularly and thinking about the truth of the Word of God, what came to my mind

Speaker 2: is that there are just moments where, one, being strong and stable means you're carrying a lot of

Speaker 2: weight. And so I thought of like this imagery in a way of like, there are just moments in my faith,

Speaker 2: there are moments, and I think just Christianity as a whole, where we have to stay firm and strong

Speaker 2: in our beliefs and in the truth of the Word of God. And oftentimes what ends up happening is that

Speaker 2: as our culture changes, our views as Christians starts to shift where at one point we came across

Speaker 2: as more loving or more accepting because culture changes, then I think that we're starting to be

Speaker 2: seen, especially in today's world, we're seen as hateful, not loving, divisive. And those are

Speaker 2: moments where it's almost like you want to shift to appeal what culture, so to not look like in

Speaker 2: quote unquote, the bad guy or the evil one or whatnot, you want to shift sometimes your position

Speaker 2: and say, well, how do we appeal culture because they think this way? And this reminds me of like,

Speaker 2: No, pillars stay strong and firm.

Speaker 2: And as a pillar in our faith, I think we need to stay strong and firm in what we believe

Speaker 2: in, in the Word of God, even if things are shifting around us that sometimes want to

Speaker 2: cause us to shift.

Speaker 2: But I think that's exactly what Paul is getting at, is that we got to stay strong and faithful

Speaker 2: and

Speaker 3: truthful to the Word of God.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 3: You're saying that, we talk about this phrase, the winds of culture,

Speaker 4: like the winds

Speaker 3: of culture

Speaker 3: blow this way or that.

Speaker 3: And it just strikes me like in ancient days, if you would have had a pillar and the winds

Speaker 3: could knock it down, that would be not the

Speaker 4: kind of pillar you want.

Speaker 4: It's not even a good pillar.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 3: But the winds of culture are always blowing one direction or another,

Speaker 4: and they can shift

Speaker 4: fast.

Speaker 4: I mean, I feel

Speaker 3: like in these last even 40 years, we've seen some major cultural winds

Speaker 3: shifting.

Speaker 3: And yeah, if there aren't pillars, it just means stuff's gonna fall over.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And maybe what else would those pillars, you know, give imagery to outside of maybe that strength and stability?

Speaker 1: I mean, what else would the people have in mind when they heard this?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think that, like, the pillars were really heavily decorated back in ancient days, so they were good to look at, you know?

Speaker 3: So I think that, you know, when we think of pillars, too, it's like, okay, they stand for something, but in an attractive way, hopefully.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't just practical. There was a visibility to it.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it was like, hey, yeah, exactly. It was something where... And I think that's a good

Speaker 3: point. Sometimes Christians get a reputation a little bit more for what we stand against than

Speaker 3: what we stand for. And we need to hopefully be better known for what we stand for than what we

Speaker 3: stand against. Now, when a culture is really reacting to some of the convictions that we

Speaker 3: hold biblically, well, sure, then maybe there's gonna be more of this uprising around the things

Speaker 3: that we stand against. But like, more than standing against certain views on marriage

Speaker 3: and sexuality, I would love to see us stand proudly for the beauty of a man and woman

Speaker 3: spending a lifetime together in marriage, you know, that that's a passionate pillar that should

Speaker 3: be attractive. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Anything you got, Roger?

Speaker 1: No, I... No, I think I'm good there.

Speaker 1: Going back to that wins a culture thing, you know, culture changes. You just said,

Speaker 1: even in the past 40 years, it's changed so much, even on its views and its progression.

Speaker 1: You know, scripturally, we know culture is decaying without the Spirit of Christ.

Speaker 1: But people in culture would push back and say, ah, you know, culture seems to be progressing.

Speaker 2: You

Speaker 1: know, it looks like we got better technology, better systems of care, better, you know,

Speaker 1: medical, you know, routes to go on to help people.

Speaker 1: And so, how do we address maybe that conversation when culture says, look at all the good that

Speaker 1: we got in progression?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a great question.

Speaker 3: I mean, there is a very, very common view, kind of the progressive view that everything's getting better.

Speaker 3: And if we just have more education and we just have more technology, things are always going to improve.

Speaker 3: And I mean, we need to acknowledge there are things that are getting better.

Speaker 4: There's no question about it.

Speaker 3: Illiteracy rates are down.

Speaker 3: Lifespans are up.

Speaker 3: Extreme poverty is down.

Speaker 3: So there are lots of things in the world that are getting better.

Speaker 3: But I think the key thing, like we need to make a differentiation between having aspects

Speaker 3: of society that are getting better while still seeing the morality of the culture potentially

Speaker 3: getting worse.

Speaker 3: And I think of an example, for example, like of ancient Rome, where Rome was the most advanced

Speaker 3: civilization of its day.

Speaker 3: And yet the further it got along, the more degraded, morally degraded the culture became.

Speaker 3: Another example that came to my mind with this question is the famous story of the Tower of

Speaker 3: Babel in Genesis 11, because there you have, it's interesting, you've got technical innovation and

Speaker 3: advancement, but at the same time, cultural and spiritual degradation going on simultaneously.

Speaker 4: Genesis

Speaker 3: 11, they said to each other, come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly.

Speaker 3: And then they used bricks instead of stone and tar for mortar.

Speaker 3: These were technological advancements. But then verse 4 says, they said,

Speaker 3: Come, let's build ourselves a city with a tower that reaches to the heavens so that when we make

Speaker 3: a name for ourselves, so that we can make a name for ourselves, otherwise we will be scattered over

Speaker 3: the face of the whole earth. Of course, the instruction from God was we're supposed to be

Speaker 3: fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. And so, here it is, like they've got outward innovation,

Speaker 3: and yet inwardly, they're really disintegrating spiritually and morally. So, I just think there's

Speaker 3: probably a need to differentiate in those ways, but to recognize apart from God's truth and values,

Speaker 3: I think we're headed towards a path of decay.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I like that you mentioned Roman

Speaker 2: civilization because a while back, I heard someone talk about how we're progressing in our society

Speaker 2: and comparing to other times in our world history. And I think the big thing that I've come to

Speaker 2: realize is that in today's world, a lot of people think that the more you are open-minded about,

Speaker 2: especially sexuality, the more progressive you are in your thinking. And when I look back at just

Speaker 2: world history, and when I think of especially the Roman civilization, what you were bringing up,

Speaker 2: is that this isn't a new concept. Like this whole idea of like the more freely you are

Speaker 2: with sexuality, and the more you live into it, the more you can express it and experiment and all

Speaker 2: this stuff, we have and we've seen throughout history that this doesn't help anyone. It didn't

Speaker 2: help the Roman civilization in any shape, way, or form. And so, I think that a lot of times people

Speaker 2: just have a misconcept of like, this is a whole new fresh idea. This is just something new in our

Speaker 2: world. And I think it's just this cycle that keeps repeating itself that when you look back, you say

Speaker 2: this really didn't add value to it. And I think a lot of times that's where we get things confused

Speaker 2: just because our world is getting better in some areas like technology, and a lot of things are

Speaker 2: just more accessible in today's world, and a lot of things are made easier. But it was true also

Speaker 2: in Roman civilization. Their architecture was building up, and their art, and that's why they

Speaker 2: were building new roads, and that's why they have that phrase, all roads lead to Rome. And so there's

Speaker 2: a lot of good things happening, but morally, family value was decaying, and a lot of things that were

Speaker 2: happening in their worldview and in those times were just not things that were helping society

Speaker 2: as a whole. And ultimately, it led to their destruction. And I think that's what, I think

Speaker 2: we got to pay attention to those things of what we're thinking is new, when in reality, it's a

Speaker 2: cycle that's repeating itself. And I think that's where we go back to. We got to go back to the

Speaker 2: truth of the Word of God and the things that God is speaking to us. And not just that, but also

Speaker 2: learning to where to step in and say, hey, we've seen this, and I think we got a better option

Speaker 2: here, and that's following the things that God's calling us to do.

Speaker 1: So, yeah.

Speaker 1: You know, it sounds like you guys are saying, even though society was progressing,

Speaker 1: it wasn't being redemptive. Like, the decay was still happening, there was still spiritual death,

Speaker 1: even though culture

Speaker 4: seemed to be vibrant, like you mentioned.

Speaker 1: That was really cool,

Speaker 1: the Genesis and Romans reference.

Speaker 4: Like,

Speaker 1: we even see that in Scripture.

Speaker 4: Yeah, right.

Speaker 3: The

Speaker 1: culture hasn't changed. It's always been in that model.

Speaker 1: Well, I'm thinking of what Roger was

Speaker 3: saying, even with sexual stuff in particular.

Speaker 3: I mean, you think of Romans chapter one, it's

Speaker 4: like

Speaker 1: the more

Speaker 3: they gave themselves up to depravity, the more they saw sexual

Speaker 4: brokenness.

Speaker 3: But it's interesting, too, you think about the technology piece as you were saying that.

Speaker 3: It's like we've never had a better ability to communicate with each other and to get information out, and we've never had more people addicted to pornography.

Speaker 4: Yes.

Speaker 3: And so it's, again, big time advancement.

Speaker 3: I love that I can like now, I think of Christina's job with like connecting with missionaries all

Speaker 3: over the world.

Speaker 3: Well, it's really cool.

Speaker 3: Like we can stay connected.

Speaker 3: It's not like if you move to another country, you're saying goodbye to your family except

Speaker 3: for one super expensive long distance phone call in a while.

Speaker 3: It's like, no, jump on FaceTime.

Speaker 3: Hey, what's up?

Speaker 3: But that same great tech is responsible for a lot of hurt now.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And you can think of that like through social media, like you can connect with so many different

Speaker 2: people today through social media.

Speaker 2: And that way you say, oh, that's a good thing.

Speaker 2: Like we're able to connect more.

Speaker 2: But there's also a lot of bad things that come from that.

Speaker 2: There's people that are anxious about their lifestyle in comparison to somebody else.

Speaker 2: There's people that are addicted to screen time and just oftentimes spending more time on social media or on their phones.

Speaker 2: And so there is this level of like, although we're advancing in one area, it doesn't mean that we're advancing in all areas.

Speaker 2: And I think we just need to call that out.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker 1: that's right.

Speaker 1: still need to have that redemptive work over the moral decay that's still happening, for sure.

Speaker 1: You know, I think about Christians wanting to, you know, lead the way in culture, not just morally,

Speaker 1: but just in overall the direction for culture. And, you know, we're known for standing on the

Speaker 1: truth of the Word of God, and, you know, that's not always an attractive thing to people. Sometimes

Speaker 1: it's very polarizing. But I think it'd be cool for us to talk on that, because sticking with that

Speaker 1: pillar imagery, they were, as you mentioned, Brian, these beautifully decorated, attractive

Speaker 1: things that people were just in awe and wowed at.

Speaker 1: You know, take that same imagery and apply it to us as Christ followers.

Speaker 1: What are ways we as Christians can make the truth attractive or less attractive?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that comes honestly with lifestyle.

Speaker 2: I think that whole saying of practice what you preach, that's really what comes to mind

Speaker 2: to me.

Speaker 2: I think the more you live out, not this like I'm throwing religion or Christianity or Jesus at everyone just to like get a reaction out of them.

Speaker 2: I think there is something that really, there's about just this lifestyle of when you live this out in a very unique way, in a real way, I think people just gravitate to that.

Speaker 2: And recently, we actually experienced this.

Speaker 2: We were in Guatemala on a mission trip just a few weeks ago.

Speaker 2: And man, we had a driver that he was just in a bad mood.

Speaker 2: He picked us up from the airport, dropped us off.

Speaker 2: It took us, it's about a three hour drive from the airport to where we were trying to

Speaker 2: get at.

Speaker 2: And he was just in a bad mood, really didn't want to talk to anyone, very short talkative,

Speaker 2: very aggressive in his demeanor, his driving.

Speaker 2: And so we're like, okay, he dropped us off.

Speaker 2: But then a week later, he picked us up.

Speaker 2: And I was like, oh man, here we go again, another three hours with this driver.

Speaker 2: And so what was interesting though is that it sounded like he's one of those that they

Speaker 2: contract a lot, third party, not affiliated with anything that we're doing on the mission

Speaker 2: trip specifically, but he knows like, oh, these are Christian people.

Speaker 2: I'm picking them up.

Speaker 2: I'm dropping them off and whatnot.

Speaker 2: And so at one point, like, again, he's just got this bad attitude.

Speaker 2: We say good morning to him, doesn't respond to anyone.

Speaker 2: Mike, who's out there serving in Guatemala, he all of a sudden was like, after this guy was rude to

Speaker 2: him about a situation, I don't want to give all the details for sake of time. But what was interesting

Speaker 2: is that here's this guy who was just rude to Mike. And then in one of the stops that we had,

Speaker 2: Mike decides to buy him coffee. And I tell you that when he got that coffee from Mike,

Speaker 2: his whole demeanor change. And this is where I go, there are times where you're like, okay,

Speaker 2: I know the Word of God, I know the truth of God, I could probably fight with hundreds of different

Speaker 2: people that think differently than me and all that. But when you show the Word of God to people,

Speaker 2: there's just an impact that I can't tell you, it's just attractive. It's just a way, and in this case,

Speaker 2: you know, Mike showing love to someone that didn't deserve it, he didn't deserve that coffee,

Speaker 2: especially after how he was acting, and yet he received that, and it changed the rest of his day.

Speaker 2: It changed his mood. And this is where I go, like, when we're living out our faith,

Speaker 2: I think that's just attractive.

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker 3: that's good. You're surrounded, obviously, by college age and 20-somethings all the time.

Speaker 3: What's your take on this?

Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's so funny because we can do things to try to make it attractive,

Speaker 4: and then in

Speaker 1: their mind, it's polarizing. It's very less attractive,

Speaker 4: because

Speaker 1: they have some

Speaker 1: of their own definitions of what a Christian should be like and what a Christian should

Speaker 1: believe, and you can really rub into some, you know, clashes there and butt heads with

Speaker 1: people.

Speaker 1: I mean, I totally agree with what you're saying, Roger.

Speaker 1: I mean, I definitely think you gotta live out what you preach.

Speaker 1: You know, that's attractive.

Speaker 1: It's, you know, unappealing to have somebody be a hypocrite.

Speaker 1: You know, nobody likes that.

Speaker 1: And definitely sticking with, you know, you guys mentioned the sexuality, like brokenness

Speaker 1: from Rome.

Speaker 1: I mean, that is one of those things that you run into culture and you butt heads with,

Speaker 1: because we are trying to show the attractiveness of what God designed a heterosexual marriage

Speaker 1: to look like, and culture wants to butt heads with that and say, no, you can do it with

Speaker 1: same sex, and it'd be as beautiful.

Speaker 1: And that's really where the battle goes on right there.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that, I mean, you know, when we're talking about being like attractive

Speaker 3: pillars, it's like we want the gospel to be offensive, not our

Speaker 4: personality.

Speaker 4: We

Speaker 3: want the gospel to be offensive, not our presentation of the gospel to be offensive.

Speaker 3: So, when it comes to even how we engage in a conversation, some people are super dogmatic.

Speaker 3: They're terrible listeners. You can tell it's more about what they want to accomplish or

Speaker 3: communicate than it is about actually caring for the person. And I just feel like that ends up

Speaker 3: coming through, like you've got to have a heart that really beats for people if you're going to

Speaker 3: be a person who's trying to share the gospel with people. If it's just a cause or trying to win an

Speaker 3: argument, man, that's just going to put people off, I think, straight away. But I think when

Speaker 3: your heart really does have a compassion for folks, then just your spirit will be more attractive.

Speaker 3: Now, again, with the things we're standing for, including the gospel itself, at times, as the Bible said, for some, it's the aroma of life, for some, it's the aroma of death, and for some, it's gonna be like, man, this stinks, and that's just the way it is.

Speaker 3: But hopefully, it's not how we're saying it that's what stinks.

Speaker 3: Right,

Speaker 1: right.

Speaker 1: I know Jesus says in Matthew that, you know, if people don't listen to your words, leave that town, shake the dust off your feet, and go.

Speaker 1: I mean, there's only so much you could do if they rejected

Speaker 4: Jesus.

Speaker 1: who is love personified, the truth, they're gonna reject us too. No surprise there.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, that really is a great point. We just need to be okay with,

Speaker 3: you're gonna get rejected

Speaker 1: sometimes.

Speaker 3: There's no way you can perfectly position your message

Speaker 3: where it just sounds so good with just

Speaker 4: the right

Speaker 3: words and even just the best example,

Speaker 3: where the person's like, oh, I love everything about what you just said. No. At the end of the

Speaker 3: day, we're going to say some things that no matter how well we say them, no matter how well we live

Speaker 3: them, people are just going to be turned off. I don't want any part of that. Yeah,

Speaker 1: if Jesus can do

Speaker 3: it, we're

Speaker 1: fools to think that we're going to somehow do that. Right on. There's this famous

Speaker 1: quote, I don't know who it originates from, but the quote says, our job is obedience, God's is the

Speaker 1: outcome. You just got to be obedient regardless of how they respond to that.

Speaker 4: It doesn't give

Speaker 1: you an

Speaker 1: excuse to be a jerk, you

Speaker 4: still do it in love,

Speaker 1: but that balance there needs to be there.

Speaker 1: You know, it's important when we run into people getting offended or rejecting us based on that.

Speaker 1: You know, one last just scripture that comes to mind is John 1, where Jesus is described as full of grace and truth.

Speaker 1: And I think that's a really good tension just we need to sit in.

Speaker 1: And that, you know, I pray that I would sit in because he was full of grace and truth.

Speaker 1: And you got to bring in both, you know, like truthful, 100% in your messaging, but also in the way you're living.

Speaker 1: You know, I think it was Spurgeon who said, you know, it was Jesus who had a truth so gracious and a grace so true.

Speaker 1: And like, I would hope that my pastoring, my preaching is that and would embody that, especially when we're going to run into so much a culture that's going to butt heads with what we believe.

Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's probably wise for all of us to know what direction our personality is naturally inclined,

Speaker 4: because I think there

Speaker 3: are the really prophetic

Speaker 4: people

Speaker 3: that on the...

Speaker 3: the... And it's weird, because on the one hand, I don't actually believe that truth,

Speaker 3: grace and truth, sometimes we look at them as different ends of a

Speaker 4: continuum

Speaker 3: or a spectrum.

Speaker 3: And I think, and even to that Spurgeon quote, like, truth is gracious

Speaker 4: in itself,

Speaker 3: and grace needs to be tied to truth. But for the sake of the conversation, let's say they're on a

Speaker 3: spectrum. I think the really prophetic people tend to deliver things in this super like,

Speaker 3: truth, lay it down.

Speaker 4: And sometimes even...

Speaker 4: Lay the smack down.

Speaker 4: Yeah, and sometimes

Speaker 3: they even take pride in it.

Speaker 2: Like, I'm

Speaker 4: not

Speaker 3: afraid to say the hard thing,

Speaker 4: you know, and all

Speaker 3: that.

Speaker 3: But then the gracious people, like, you know, super in touch with how are people gonna feel and how they receive it.

Speaker 3: Maybe they even don't say it straight up.

Speaker 3: Hold it back.

Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think it's just really important.

Speaker 3: We probably know our own wiring because the pastors in us are like, you know, we don't wanna say this too directly.

Speaker 3: And the prophets are like, no, you need it.

Speaker 3: And, you know, we gotta, I mean, we're all, ultimately it's gonna reflect our own personality.

Speaker 3: but probably just need to be aware of what our personalities are.

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Speaker 2: and I think you have to learn to discern where to extend grace and when is the time to be truthful.

Speaker 2: And I think before I came a pastor and was pastoring people, these were the tensions that I had working in secular jobs.

Speaker 2: I had people who believed differently than me and lived a lifestyle that was so differently than me.

Speaker 2: And I think that the more I got into those conversations with people, there was just

Speaker 2: moments where I could tell God is really pressing me into here to extend grace into this person.

Speaker 4: And then

Speaker 2: there are moments here where God's just literally telling me, hey, you need to

Speaker 2: be truthful with this person.

Speaker 2: And I think both of them are pointing them to Jesus.

Speaker 2: Like, hey, He is the truth.

Speaker 2: He is the way.

Speaker 2: He is the life.

Speaker 2: And also, it taught me to try to convince them, your lifestyle is not better than it

Speaker 2: would be with Jesus.

Speaker 4: And I think

Speaker 2: it's just one of the things when we talk about attractive and how do we attract

Speaker 2: the gospel to where people who are living a lifestyle that sometimes, I think that is

Speaker 2: the biggest tension that I've found over all my years in ministry with people that are

Speaker 2: far from Jesus.

Speaker 2: It's this idea that living in sin and pleasure is better than living without Jesus.

Speaker 2: And the more I look at that lifestyle, and even again, as you have these relationships,

Speaker 2: these conversations, it comes out naturally where they'll say like, I've been doing this

Speaker 2: and I've been living this way, and I'm in this addiction, and I'm partying every weekend,

Speaker 2: and I'm trying to go after the money and the next thing, but I feel empty, and I'm void,

Speaker 2: and I don't know how to deal with this. I'm never satisfied, and I've never really experienced

Speaker 2: true joy, and I've seen this in successful people, not successful people, well-educated people,

Speaker 2: and it goes back to convincing them and letting them know that's because the void is really filled

Speaker 2: through Jesus, and I think that's the piece that when I think of how do we make this attractive,

Speaker 2: is really trying to convince someone to say, hey, life is better with Jesus. But in that,

Speaker 2: you have to have those relationships with them and know when to extend grace and not be afraid

Speaker 2: to speak truth.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And some of it's dependent on, one, where the person's at, but even their

Speaker 3: personality. Like sometimes I'm dealing with some real hard-headed

Speaker 4: people and

Speaker 3: they like...

Speaker 3: They like

Speaker 4: that.

Speaker 4: You know, what connects is

Speaker 3: you just give it to them

Speaker 2: straight, straight.

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3: And other people, you know, it reminds me of like your kids when you discipline them and you like

Speaker 3: people like to talk about, oh, this kid was so tender. I just gave him a look and it was like,

Speaker 3: you know,

Speaker 4: and then other kids,

Speaker 3: you're like, you're threatened to lower the boom

Speaker 4: and they're still

Speaker 4: laughing at you,

Speaker 3: you know? So similarly, I feel like when you're, when this whole issue of,

Speaker 3: you know, how we engage with people, I feel like some people really respond, you know,

Speaker 3: based on their personality.

Speaker 4: Like they like

Speaker 3: that, you know, go at it. And then other folks are super,

Speaker 3: you got to be real.

Speaker 4: Tiptoeing.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But they like to give it to the truth bombs,

Speaker 4: but they need to be tiptoed around.

Speaker 4: Exactly.

Speaker 1: But yes, kind of sticking with this theme, you know, Jesus says in the Beatitudes, Matthew 5, that we are salt and light of the earth.

Speaker 1: And that means we need to be in every sphere of conversation influencing culture.

Speaker 1: And two of those that are really tough to navigate are the political and sexual.

Speaker 1: You know, what are maybe some common objections culture has when Christians get involved in that?

Speaker 1: maybe the political one just to start out with.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there, and we talked about some, and so if people missed the message,

Speaker 3: we talked about some in the message, and we'll put that in the show notes.

Speaker 3: But it'd be fun to just hit a couple others that I think come up a lot.

Speaker 3: One of the things that when Christians are trying to get involved with politics, people say,

Speaker 2: yeah,

Speaker 3: but what about the wall of separation between church and state?

Speaker 3: I'm sure you guys have heard people say that.

Speaker 3: Like, hey, you gotta keep religion out of politics.

Speaker 3: That doesn't belong anywhere.

Speaker 3: There's a wall of...

Speaker 3: And this is the thing, I don't know how this gets confused in history, but that phrase does not mean

Speaker 3: what most people these days take it to mean. That phrase came up in 1802. Thomas Jefferson wrote

Speaker 3: this, going historical on you right now, okay? And he wrote this letter to the Danbury Baptist

Speaker 3: Association. And he used that phrase, the wall of separation between church and state, specifically

Speaker 3: to reassure them that the federal government would not interfere in the exercise of religion.

Speaker 3: That was the whole point. It was never about like, oh, we're gonna try to keep religion out of the

Speaker 3: state. It was to keep the state out of their religious practice and beliefs. So, I would

Speaker 3: argue the founders actually assumed that people's religious convictions would inform civic life.

Speaker 3: So, I always just say like, hey, when we're talking about this wall of separation of church

Speaker 3: and state, we gotta remember the whole reason why that came up, that even phrase exists,

Speaker 3: is to make sure that the president isn't trying to take control and lead all the churches. So,

Speaker 3: that's one, I think. Second one, I'll just motor through

Speaker 4: a couple of these and then glad

Speaker 3: to hear

Speaker 3: you guys' take on it too. Sometimes people say, man, I don't feel like Christians should be

Speaker 3: grasping for power. Like, what are we doing trying to get into these power positions? And

Speaker 3: the way they say it, it makes it sound like having power is bad, that that's a... It's like some,

Speaker 3: I don't know, nefarious thing that like, oh man, you're just after the power, you know,

Speaker 3: and the way they kind of put it. And what bugs me about that is power by itself is not a bad thing.

Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot of things in this world that can be back to social media or money.

Speaker 3: They're things that are neutral in and of themselves, but then like, you know, how they're

Speaker 3: used is a whole different thing that, and that's what makes it really moral or immoral. And so,

Speaker 3: the big thing for me on this one is, listen, if godly folks aren't seeking to influence our culture,

Speaker 3: influence politics, somebody else is

Speaker 4: going to. And

Speaker 3: the proverb I love on this is Proverbs 29,

Speaker 3: it says, when the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice, but when the wicked rule,

Speaker 3: the people mourn. And so I just, I think when it comes to this whole like, again, it's one of these

Speaker 3: gotcha phrases like, oh, you're just trying to get after the power. Well, the funny thing is,

Speaker 3: usually when people are saying that, it's because they actually want

Speaker 4: the power.

Speaker 4: They don't have it.

Speaker 4: They want it.

Speaker 4: We don't want you in it because we want it.

Speaker 2: So

Speaker 3: I want to be like, listen, somebody's going to have it, and I want godly

Speaker 4: people in it.

Speaker 4: So again,

Speaker 3: just trying to shoot some holes in some of

Speaker 1: these common objections.

Speaker 1: Can I chime in real quick, though, B?

Speaker 1: Just real fast.

Speaker 1: Get after it.

Speaker 1: And I want you to keep going.

Speaker 1: For sure.

Speaker 1: Because I thought of two people when you're saying that, like Daniel of Nebuchadnezzar

Speaker 1: and Joseph in Egypt under Pharaoh.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You know, we see Joseph leveraging second highest in power, leveraging it for the saving

Speaker 1: of many lives,

Speaker 4: you

Speaker 1: know, during the famine.

Speaker 1: And then, yeah, in Revelation, and I think it's Revelation 19, it says, come out of her,

Speaker 1: come out of Rome, come out of Babylon.

Speaker 1: And so, like, sometimes there's a tension, like, if you're in it, you need to be leading

Speaker 1: the right way, the godly way.

Speaker 1: If you're not doing that, or you're not able to do that, you got to get out of there.

Speaker 1: You can't be in the power.

Speaker 1: If you're going to have the power, you got to lead it godly.

Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's a real good point.

Speaker 1: Those are

Speaker 3: just such great examples.

Speaker 3: And I mean, honestly, how many civilizations would be affected so far differently if they

Speaker 3: didn't have godly people in authority positions?

Speaker 3: Here's the third one I'll mention, and then, yeah, you guys tackle it.

Speaker 3: But sometimes, and this, I would say, is more of like an objection from Christians who want

Speaker 3: to kind of like, oh, we shouldn't be involved with politics, or what are you trying to do?

Speaker 3: And again, as pastors, our primary focus is not politics.

Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not getting up every morning going, how can I do politics and all that?

Speaker 3: But I also don't want people feeling like that means Christians need to be apolitical or something

Speaker 3: like that. But yeah, sometimes Christians will be like, well, yeah, but politics can't save

Speaker 3: anybody. And of course, that's true in the sense if we're talking about salvation,

Speaker 3: heaven or hell kinds of things. I mean, only Jesus saves people, so I'm all about that.

Speaker 3: But the thing that strikes me is even Jesus said, the way we live, we can either pull

Speaker 3: more of heaven down to earth or pull more of hell up to earth.

Speaker 3: And so, I wanna be like, yeah, politics can't save my soul, but politics can actually make

Speaker 3: a huge difference when it comes to saving us from pain or suffering that we might otherwise

Speaker 3: go through.

Speaker 3: And man, if you want a great example of that, I feel like look at some of our particularly

Speaker 3: large cities and even some of, we've got family in Portland. I mean, my gosh. I mean, that's a

Speaker 3: ramification of political leadership. And so, like, no, politics isn't going to get anybody

Speaker 2: to heaven,

Speaker 3: but there's a lot politics can save

Speaker 2: us from

Speaker 3: or create a space for us to flourish. What do you

Speaker 3: guys think about that whole issue of affecting politics and the broader culture?

Speaker 2: Yeah. I think you're right on with a lot of the things that you're mentioning,

Speaker 2: Especially, like, I think of all the time throughout all my years of hearing, like, hey, we need to pray for politicians.

Speaker 2: We need to pray for Christians to take office and, you know, be in these positions.

Speaker 2: And everything that you're describing of, like, when they do and you have godly men, it affects change in a positive way.

Speaker 2: And so I think of, you know, judges and kings and you had good judges, you had bad judges.

Speaker 2: And, you know, there was some, a ripple effect of either good or evil in both judges and

Speaker 2: kings because of it.

Speaker 2: And so when I think of today, I think that Christians should be pressing more into and

Speaker 2: praying more into, we need godly men and women to take, you know, office and to be leading

Speaker 2: rather that state, local, federal, all areas, because I think that's going to help advance

Speaker 2: the kingdom of Jesus.

Speaker 2: And to your point, exactly that.

Speaker 2: It's not a means of salvation.

Speaker 2: And so what I would say is there's a, I would say I want to give an encouraging word and

Speaker 2: a word of caution.

Speaker 2: And so I'll start with the encouragement when it comes to this matter, because I do think

Speaker 2: that the church is very divided in this matter.

Speaker 2: And a lot of Christians are divided in this matter.

Speaker 2: And I think even there's a lot of hatred among Christians because of what political side of

Speaker 2: the aisle. You should approach more than another, and everyone's got their own arguments and their

Speaker 2: own points of view. But what is sad to see is that because there's disaffiliation to a political

Speaker 2: party, we can't even celebrate when maybe the political party that I am most likely not inclined

Speaker 2: to is pushing things towards that align with the truth of the Word of God. And we can't celebrate

Speaker 2: that because it's, oh, I'm against that political party and I've always voted this way. And I think

Speaker 2: that we need to get away from that and say, maybe I've never been inclined to this party or that

Speaker 2: party, but what they're doing is actually good. It's actually biblical, actually aligns to the

Speaker 2: truth of the word of God. And I think we need to celebrate that and we need to acknowledge that

Speaker 2: when that happens, that is a win for the things that are true. And then the only caution that I

Speaker 2: would give is to the point that you were talking about is politics doesn't save us. But I'll say

Speaker 2: this, it will affect change. And so, politics will always affect change, good or bad. And we need to

Speaker 2: know and understand that. And so, what I've said, and recently I said this to somebody, I said,

Speaker 2: politics will always affect change, but only Jesus could transform lives. And I think that

Speaker 2: when we get into a place where we're trying to bring salvation through politics, there is a

Speaker 2: caution there where it's not through politics. Only Jesus can really transform a life. And so,

Speaker 2: for that reason, it's where no matter what, our job as the church is still to share the message

Speaker 2: of Jesus. And I think that's the key thing that we can't get away from where it's like, well,

Speaker 2: now our politics is going to do our evangelizing. Now our politics is going to be what we

Speaker 2: believe is the hope to transform the world. No, the hope is still in the local church within that

Speaker 2: community. And I believe that wholeheartedly that God still calls us to affect change through

Speaker 2: politics, yes, but that we never lose sight of the message that it is the church's responsibility

Speaker 2: through the message of Jesus Christ to bring transformation to our world. So,

Speaker 2: that's where I would say we have to caution if we're starting to fall into a place where

Speaker 2: It is through our politics that we're seeing transformation, and that's where we think

Speaker 2: salvation is gonna come from.

Speaker 2: And I say, that's where I would say we gotta caution that.

Speaker 3: Oh, that's a great word.

Speaker 3: I've often wondered if the people I know who are the most politically passionate would be

Speaker 3: that passionate about the gospel and about evangelism, how different would our world and

Speaker 3: our culture be?

Speaker 3: Because it seems like sometimes, and I think it's probably because with politics, there's

Speaker 3: such a clear winner and loser, people voting, all that. It's really easy, just like back to the

Speaker 3: sports thing. I mean, I think

Speaker 4: it's easy

Speaker 3: to be like, the score is the score. And so, it's easier to get

Speaker 3: more fired up about that. But I'm like, man, I would love to see that level of juice be going

Speaker 3: towards, I wanna see people come to know Christ. And I think that when you talk to people in

Speaker 3: leadership positions on global stuff, they're like, listen, guns can't solve the biggest problems in

Speaker 3: our world. It's got to come at a heart level. And guns, I mean, sometimes they don't solve anything.

Speaker 3: Sometimes it's a Band-Aid. And I'm not saying there's times that wars have to be fought and

Speaker 3: all those things. I'm not saying that's never got its place. I'm just saying that, man, the heart is

Speaker 3: is the ultimate battle. And that's the only place that really peace is gonna come from. And if we're

Speaker 3: trying to accomplish it outside in, which is politics, which has its place, it's always at

Speaker 3: some level gonna be a losing battle because ultimate change is inside out.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And sticking with just Jesus at the Beatitudes, he tells for us to pray for our

Speaker 1: enemies, to bless those who curse us. And it becomes dangerous when we look at the battle as

Speaker 1: like, I must be on the winning team and you're on the losing team because you view things

Speaker 1: differently.

Speaker 2: And

Speaker 1: now they immediately become enemy.

Speaker 1: When our posture, heart posture, like you were saying, should be, no, we want them to

Speaker 1: be family.

Speaker 1: We want them to be part of the family of God.

Speaker 1: Of course, we might see things politically, not eye to eye at times, but my first passion

Speaker 1: is your family of God.

Speaker 1: You're made in the image of God.

Speaker 1: And that ought to be where we're putting the most juice, the most energy in our conversation

Speaker 1: and thought pattern.

Speaker 1: You know, even sticking with Timothy in chapter two, when he says, you know, that they would

Speaker 1: pray for all kings and leaders.

Speaker 1: Well, the leaders in that time weren't very godly, you know?

Speaker 1: And so, like, I'm sure some of their affiliations were creating like an alienation and relationships

Speaker 1: with each other.

Speaker 1: And he's like, hey, hey, whoa, wait a minute.

Speaker 1: We need to be praying for

Speaker 4: these people.

Speaker 1: Pray that they'd be saved because Christ wants all of them to come to the knowledge of salvation.

Speaker 1: You know, all of them to come to the knowledge of truth.

Speaker 1: And so, it's great that we're political.

Speaker 1: We just need to keep the main thing the main thing.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And that's the gospel.

Speaker 2: But even to that, bringing it back to why being involved as a Christian in politics is important,

Speaker 2: it's because politics, again, has the power to move things forward that help the church,

Speaker 2: or it has the power to really slow down the church.

Speaker 2: Now, again, it's never going to take away, because throughout church history, you see that

Speaker 2: so many things were put in place to stop the spreading of the gospel, and yet,

Speaker 2: till this day, we're still spreading it.

Speaker 2: So I don't think they'll ever silence the church, but we do have to be aware that it can slow the

Speaker 2: church from advancing. And when you have people in politics that really pass either laws or are

Speaker 2: looking at things where it really helps the church advance, that is a win for the kingdom of Jesus

Speaker 2: Christ. And we have to live in that place and celebrate that, even if for the most part, we

Speaker 2: would say, I don't really always agree with that political party, but if it's helping advance the

Speaker 2: church, if it's helping for us to spread the message of the gospel, then that's a win and

Speaker 2: we have to celebrate that.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: That's good.

Speaker 1: Do you guys feel like there are any, like, maybe some real practical ways we can continue

Speaker 1: to be pillars in the political, maybe even, you know, if we want to go branch out to some

Speaker 1: other areas of, you know, cultures at odds with the church, even in the sexual, you know,

Speaker 1: what are maybe some of those real practical things we can be visible pillars on of truth

Speaker 1: in today's world, whether that's in our friendships, workplace, online, politics,

Speaker 1: you name it? What are some of those practical things we could be doing to go in that direction?

Speaker 3: To me, I mean, partly it is just speaking to truth instead of kind of keeping our heads down

Speaker 3: and our mouths shut. I think that while on the one hand, we want to embody truth in an attractive

Speaker 3: and compelling way. I think that when it comes to be a pillar of truth, I mean, at some level,

Speaker 3: that means you have to be the one who speaks truth. And I think that, I mean, I don't know,

Speaker 3: I'd be interested to hear you guys' take on this. Like, to me, it feels like we get so worried about

Speaker 3: what people are going to think of us and image management and those kinds of things that I think

Speaker 3: a lot of people are pulling back on speaking up. And if we had to err in a certain direction,

Speaker 3: I would guess that we're right now, we're erring in the direction of not speaking up enough or

Speaker 3: entering the conversation because either we don't want to look bad, we don't want to just get into

Speaker 3: it, whatever, more so than we're erring on speaking up and really trying to say, I don't know about

Speaker 3: that. What's you guys' take on, I mean, literally when it comes to like, you're at the barbershop or

Speaker 3: you're in a classroom and when do you speak up and where do you think people are erring? More on

Speaker 3: the quiet side or more on the speak up side of things? I think on

Speaker 2: the quiet side. And I think

Speaker 2: exactly what you're talking about, just this idea of like, I don't want to speak up because of maybe

Speaker 2: how I'll be seen if I do speak up. But when I think about this, and I think a lot of times when

Speaker 2: we think of the Word of God telling us to speak boldly, we don't oftentimes relate that to,

Speaker 2: that means you speak up, even if it means that someone might have a certain view of you

Speaker 2: because you spoke up. And I think that is the tension. It's just this idea of, I think a lot

Speaker 2: of people tend to lean more to the people pleasing, the I want everyone to like me, I want everyone to

Speaker 2: not feel like I'm coming across a certain way. And then because of that, and then what you see in

Speaker 2: culture today, where you can't have a difference of opinion with somebody else without them

Speaker 2: branding you in that way, basically, it's that, oh, I don't, you don't think like me, then you're

Speaker 2: not loving, you don't think like me, then you hate me. And I think that's part of the problem is that

Speaker 2: we can't have a difference of opinion with someone without being branded a certain way.

Speaker 2: But in all of that, I think that God still calls us to, it's okay, and we kind of hit on this a

Speaker 2: little bit already, but it's okay to not be liked, but we have to speak the truth. We have to

Speaker 2: press into those places. And so I would just say that no matter how people might see us or view us,

Speaker 2: we still have to live in a place where we're saying, I'm going to speak up no matter what,

Speaker 2: And in whatever sphere or place I find myself in, we have to speak the truth.

Speaker 1: I find people want to speak up online and

Speaker 2: social

Speaker 4: media, but get quiet in person.

Speaker 4: Online, the place of all courage.

Speaker 4: Oh, yes, it is.

Speaker 1: And I just, I don't want to go too long on this recent event that just happened, but I just had a meeting with somebody

Speaker 4: who were,

Speaker 1: on the political and sexual spectrum, we see completely opposite.

Speaker 1: And this is somebody who we've had a few, you know, conversations with.

Speaker 1: And, you know, it's so hard because I'm praying to the Lord for wisdom on how to navigate this conversation.

Speaker 1: And, you know, I just, I came away with, you know, forgive the alliteration, but just you got to be bold and brokenhearted, Jordan.

Speaker 1: You know, like be bold in like what is true to this person because they need to hear it.

Speaker 1: You know, would this person have to climb over praying bodies, a mountain of praying bodies, swim through like a sea of intercessory tears,

Speaker 1: to get their way to hell and out of what God has for them.

Speaker 1: Maybe they have to swim and climb that, you know, but do it brokenhearted.

Speaker 1: Feel the same way that the Lord feels for them.

Speaker 1: You know, he doesn't delight in having to lay this, the holy

Speaker 4: smackdown,

Speaker 1: you know?

Speaker 1: And I remember there was this really, you could call awkward, long, awkward, quiet,

Speaker 1: where I was just like, I mean, I'm wiping tears from my eyes saying, you know, I'm so sorry,

Speaker 1: but the word of God says, I have to put these things before you.

Speaker 1: You know, 1 Timothy 4, put these things before you.

Speaker 1: It's you're a good servant of Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1: And this individual just sat there quietly and just took it and didn't yell or leave or storm off and was like, I know you love me and this is hard to hear and I don't really see it that way, but thanks.

Speaker 1: And, you know, I don't know where that relationship and conversation is going to go after this, but if we're going to do it, we got to be bold and brokenhearted.

Speaker 1: You know, you got to be.

Speaker 1: I believe that's how Jesus would do it.

Speaker 1: And, you know, that's the way I think we'd have to do it practically.

Speaker 3: That really, that's so good.

Speaker 3: I mean, and that's, again, when people are going to, like, they're going to feel through

Speaker 3: your words where your heart is coming from.

Speaker 3: They're going to just feel that heart come through.

Speaker 3: I think that's so good.

Speaker 3: And I think that, you know, when it comes to your heart for people, it's a weird thing

Speaker 3: because I was, you know, the more critical view of ourselves is that we're not speaking

Speaker 3: up at times because people-pleasing.

Speaker 3: the more sympathetic view of why we don't speak up is at times because we don't want to hurt

Speaker 3: people's feelings.

Speaker 4: And we

Speaker 3: don't want to make them feel bad about what they view or who they are or

Speaker 3: whatever. And so we're just like, man, I don't want to go there. And I think we've got to just

Speaker 3: be aware sometimes loving people and having compassion in the way you're talking about

Speaker 3: is speaking up. And actually, it's a real statement of not caring for people well if we

Speaker 3: believe we know something that's true and important for their life and we say,

Speaker 3: yeah, I'm gonna withhold it. I mean, I've heard people say, and this is a stark way of saying it,

Speaker 3: but it sticks with you for that reason. They're like, how much do you have to hate someone to

Speaker 3: never share the gospel with them.

Speaker 1: I

Speaker 3: mean, that's, you know, and that might be more than many of us

Speaker 3: like to think of, stronger than many of us like to think of it, but it gets your attention like,

Speaker 3: okay, how little do I have to care about you

Speaker 1: to

Speaker 3: like never be willing to take the risk and share

Speaker 3: Jesus with you? And at some level, if I'm telling myself, well, that's because I don't want to hurt

Speaker 3: your feelings, you know, I probably, I don't know, I probably got some things not straight in my own

Speaker 3: thinking. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. That's good. Yeah.

Speaker 3: One of the things that I hear often is

Speaker 2: the, well, I don't

Speaker 2: know what to say. And that bugs me. Not like if you're a new Christian and you're just starting

Speaker 2: out, obviously there's a learning factor there. But when I've talked to Christian that I know have

Speaker 2: been in church for many years and they'll say, well, I never speak up because I just don't know

Speaker 2: what to say. With all the resources that we have today, with everything that it is our ability to

Speaker 2: just really take on and really inform ourselves. I just feel like there's no excuse for you to

Speaker 2: constantly live in this place of like, why I never speak up? Because I just don't know how to share

Speaker 2: my faith, or I don't know how to present the gospel, or I don't know how to speak up about

Speaker 2: this matter or that matter, because I don't know the Bible too much. And I think that there's just

Speaker 2: this level of spiritual laziness that people get very complacent with and comfortable with,

Speaker 2: that as we're speaking truth, we need to challenge that and say like, man, you should already be

Speaker 2: teachers instead of students at the level of how much you've received. And I think that that's just

Speaker 2: like a challenging word maybe for someone that'd be watching this is just, man, I need to really

Speaker 2: press into and stop using that excuse of I don't know what to say when maybe I should already be

Speaker 2: at the level of knowing what to say. But

Speaker 3: Roger's getting after it, man. It's like, I'm

Speaker 3: going to put the grace aside now. Let's get to the truth.

Speaker 1: Calling out the excuses, man.

Speaker 3: Calling out the excuses.

Speaker 3: I'll drink to that.

Speaker 1: There's no names you want to attach to that, right?

Speaker 3: Hypothetically, right?

Speaker 3: No names.

Speaker 3: A little truth

Speaker 1: bomb to end the conversation.

Speaker 1: Well, man, this is...

Speaker 1: You got something to be?

Speaker 1: Go ahead.

Speaker 1: Yeah, one other thing I was gonna

Speaker 3: say that on this whole issue, and yeah, we may not have

Speaker 3: the perfect thing to say, but it is interesting that when you...

Speaker 3: I think that courage to speak up or cowardice is contagious.

Speaker 3: And a good example of where cowardice is contagious is Galatians 2, where you have,

Speaker 3: it's that famous example where Peter was sitting with the Gentiles, and then some other people

Speaker 3: comes with Jewish background who normally wouldn't hang out with the Gentiles, and all of a sudden,

Speaker 3: you see Peter pulling back. And then it says, others pulled back because of the example. And

Speaker 3: reputation for being such a positive guy, an encourager, just loved on people so well.

Speaker 3: And so I think when the text says, even Barnabas, it's like, man, Peter's example of... And it says

Speaker 3: he did it because of fear, by the way, in that text. It says he pulled back out of fear of these

Speaker 3: people who entered the restaurant or whatever. And so that fear was contagious, and then it had

Speaker 3: a ripple effect. It got that person, that person, that person to the point it got Barnabas.

Speaker 3: And then there are other examples in Scripture where you see people standing up courageously,

Speaker 3: and it's like, man, you see somebody with courage, and you're like, I can do that.

Speaker 3: I can do that.

Speaker 3: And I just think that, to your point, Roger, we don't need the exact words, but if we're

Speaker 3: willing to throw out something of...

Speaker 3: Sometimes it's just like, well, here's what I believe, and then you just say it in a sentence

Speaker 3: or two sentences, and maybe you can't do this huge argument for it or whatever.

Speaker 3: And maybe it's just like, hey, that's just what the Bible says.

Speaker 3: But maybe that's enough to get somebody else to jump in and go, yeah, me too.

Speaker 3: I mean, and then they can kind of jump in on their own way.

Speaker 3: But I just think courage begets courage, but cowardice begets cowardice.

Speaker 3: And I think sometimes we've got a culture where some views that are most hostile to Christian

Speaker 3: faith are like the loudest voices.

Speaker 3: And then we got a lot of Christians that are like scared to speak up.

Speaker 3: And if we just have folks with a little bit more courage, I think it would build a culture of courage.

Speaker 1: Well, appreciate it, guys.

Speaker 1: Thanks for the honest conversation.

Speaker 1: It's been fun talking about how we engage the world and the political sphere and how we can be pillars of truth as the Church of God.

Speaker 1: So it's been awesome.

Speaker 1: Thanks for hosting today, Jordan.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it was good to have you, man.

Speaker 1: Great job, man.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it was fun to do it.

Speaker 3: Until next time, all right?

Speaker 3: That's right.

Speaker 3: Until next time.

Speaker 3: Well, I sure hope you enjoyed that conversation and Roger and Jordan and myself hanging out.

Speaker 3: That was so much fun for me.

Speaker 3: And I think we covered some really good material today.

Speaker 3: And so listen, again, if you haven't had a chance to rate and review Made to Advance,

Speaker 3: please do that today.

Speaker 3: This has been a production of Engedi Church.

Speaker 3: And so we got more great conversations on the way.

Speaker 3: Until next time, just know you were made to advance.