Blake Hunsley 0:00 You're listening to within our reach, a podcast by reachAbility Association that focuses on accessibility, inclusion and leveling the playing field at work and in your community. My name is Blake Hunsley, and my co host is Shelley Alward MacLeod and I are joined today by reachability CEO, Tova Sherman, once again, reachability, as we've mentioned on past episodes, has recently celebrated our 25th anniversary as an NGO, and we get a lot of questions about what it takes not just to run a successful NGO, but what it takes to start a successful NGO from people who are looking to add new services in need in our community. So today, we brought Tova back, and we're going to pick her brain on her 25 years of experience as the head of reachability. So without much further ado, hi Tova. What's an NGO? What does it take to found a successful one and keep it running for 25 years? 25

Tova Sherman 0:43 years? I can tell you that in five hours or less, how long is this? You're not only here with me, but I have to acknowledge that Shelley, your co host, is someone with a tremendous amount of knowledge based on her community work, both in boards as well as actively as in supporting agencies like reachability, so I'm excited to be here with her to share some of both of our what I would call best practices and pit pitfalls. I say pitfalls because there were so many when I started reachability. And I'm not going to compare, because 25 years is a lot of change, but there's some, I think, commonalities Shelley, that you would agree that are very much part of just the best practice. Next practice of how to start out whether you wanted to have a charitable number or not, might be where I would start, because that's a good question. Absolutely.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 1:30 I think I hear that a lot, as I'm sure you know, we were discussing earlier today, people thinking they want to start an NGO. And, you know, one of the first questions I'll ask somebody is, so what is it you're going to do? Like, what's what's the purpose of what you're doing? And are you looking for charitable status? Do

Tova Sherman 1:55 you need charitable status, depending on what this activity involves? Again, charitable status. I do want to just do want to just do a little bit of the acronym

Blake Hunsley 2:02 piece. So I was going to ask for us, let's get right.

Tova Sherman 2:06 NGO means non governmental organization, but it is term that uses or suggests that we are charities. Now, the big difference is, is the charity got a charitable number, meaning they can, for instance, give a receipt if they do a fundraiser or something like that, or even people can donate money straight up, and they can give them a charitable receipt. And most importantly, that money goes into supporting the program and agency. Question, that's a nonprofit. We're all, in a sense, nonprofits, but when you get into the charitable status, that's where you have to register to the federal government. You have to get a charitable number. You have to fill out a number. Fill out a number of forms that answer questions. You need to have a board in place that you can say this will be our board members. You know, what I would call a steering committee, sort of a pre board, and all of these pieces, and that's if you want to pursue that. But many people who call us Blake, and I think you've seen this as well, are just have this really important community contribution to make. Might be a dinner, it might be a clothing drive. It could be around food insecurity. Is what I meant by dinner, not having a dinner party. But most importantly, the idea is, are you trying to solve an issue that you see and that's all you need to do, or are you trying to start something that has the potential to grow, to engage more people, much like reachability, to have various programs, to create a series of stakeholders, to write grants and get grants from not only the government, both provincial, municipal and federal, but also from foundations. And they all want a charitable number.

Blake Hunsley 3:40 So let's say I identify a need in my community, and I think, Okay, this is for me to fill. My first question is going to be, do I need a charitable number? What is my deciding factor on that? In your opinion?

Tova Sherman 3:53 Well, really, it's fundraising. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what else would drive me to want to go through the application, the process, the building of a board, because you don't always need a board if it's going to be, you know, a suitcase gathering of getting suitcases for people who don't have them, or blankets or or, you know, getting a group of people together and doing like a stitch and bitch, which I love, where everyone makes quilts and mittens or whatever it is to help that does not need a charitable status. Because, frankly, even if someone wanted to make a donation. You do have ways to take a donation, even without the status. The number one way is to partner with someone else. So for instance, if I was going to get a large donation of blankets in the community, and I wanted to give somebody some charitable donation for the 1000 blankets they're going to donate, I might go over to the Boys and Girls Club, of which Shelley is a board member, and say, Hey, Shelley, I'd like to give these to out to through you. And I'd like to know if you'd be willing to give the charitable receipt to someone as a result of this. Because this isn't a competition to you boys and girls club. It is a complimentary opportunity. And when we can show that, I think we can. Find partners. Reachability has been on both sides of that where before we had a number, we worked with another agency, and after we had our charitable number, we were able to support some small startups and allowing them to do some work under our umbrella that was appropriate to us, that we could manage financially. Because obviously I can't take money, give out money, and not know where that money went. So there's a hand that the agency you go to, like Boys and Girls Club, would have to have in order for it to be appropriate for all parties. Does that make sense?

Blake Hunsley 5:27 Yeah, this also kind of sounds like the first potential pitfall to avoid is, I imagine there's many challenges involved in getting this charitable number. You said there's a long

Tova Sherman 5:36 time. Well, time has changed. I know that when I did it 25 years ago, and forgive me, I don't mean to sound like the old lady that says in my day, you day, but in my day, it was about three months tops to get a charitable number, to do all the work to get the people together. Now, I know for a fact it takes much longer. It's not as let's just say, simple, or they aren't just giving them out because you filled out the paperwork. There's a little more due diligence involved than there was, you know, again, 25 years ago, or even longer. So what I'm seeing is they're making it a little tougher, which isn't a bad thing in terms of making sure it's authentic. You know what I'm saying about that. But the other side is there are authentic people who aren't great at the paperwork side, at the waiting, at the understanding why this is going on. And those are the people I really recommend reach out to like a reachability or an agency where they can say, Hey, can you and I work together until this happens, and here's how, and you need to be very clear, because you, again, do not want to step on toes of people who've already been doing it. You know, whenever I go for a grant or anything like that, I always ask two questions, and I think that's a really big hint, anybody? Question one, why us? So for that person, maybe it's why us, my stitch and bitch club, why should we be doing this? I hear they're giving blankets and mittens and socks out the back door at another place. Well, the answer is, then you've asked your second question, which is not only why us, but who else is doing it? You've got to do the research in the community to say they aren't already giving up blankets at Boys and Girls Club, before you call girls boys and girls club and say, Hey, you want to give up blankets. So it's extremely important to do your due diligence, not and again, one thing at a time doesn't always work. You have to have concurrent activities, concurrently to applying and getting people to be involved in your steering committee. You then also need to create partnerships that you will want for years, long after you get a charitable receipt number and actually start working with them, that's going to be your future is building with the community, not despite the community, if that's the way to put it.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 7:36 So I actually think that the first step before deciding about Charitable Foundation, or, yeah, it is really the two questions that Tova talked about, right, like, why my thing okay? And who else is doing my thing right? Because, because that may help decide that I don't even need to be an NGO, right? I actually need to be partner with another organization, okay? That's doing that, or I can be a stakeholder, right, whatever the case may be, but let's say you do decide, yes, I am okay, there is a need for my whatever I'm going to offer to the community, whatever the community is, you can even determine the scope of that later, right, right? But the next step before even a charitable Yeah, is that you have in Nova Scotia, okay, you have to register your name and business with the registry of joint stocks, okay? And at that point, you don't actually have to decide whether you're a charitable business, that's right, you're gonna apply for because, in order, it's kind of a two prong, two prong approach, you have to act before you can have a charitable business you actually have. And that is also why it does take people longer, because they start to apply for the charitable status and they're not a registered business in Nova Scotia, so immediately your application will get bounced back. Yeah, right. So sometimes there's a bunch of bounce backs that happen, right?

Blake Hunsley 9:03 I'm not surprised, because we get calls about this a lot, and there's no right? There's no course that I know of that teaches you how to do this. I wouldn't have known that. And the calls we're getting, people don't know

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 9:11 where to start. Even as a business owner, I hear all the time from clients, right, that want to start their own business, and they're like, Well, I didn't know I had to do that. Like, where do I do that? I was like, yeah, like, there should be a list. And then furthermore, when you actually sign up at, you know, the register of joint stocks, okay, register your business there actually, then should be, like, a little how to guide. Okay, the next thing you know, do I need to apply for HST number? How do I do that? What's the but there's none of that. It's really kind of a, you know, you're on your own, yeah?

Tova Sherman 9:51 Which is why we have to help our each other agency, right? Like you Shelley people like you, coming back and helping other people figure out what steps they need. To take those are the invaluable people that are going to push you forward. Really important to have people around you that know what's going on. Everyone shouldn't be new to the game, for lack of a better

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 10:09 term, no, that makes sense, and that's been one of the that is really one of the benefits that I see of the podcasts that that we're doing, is this podcast is no different. This is, you know, we could keep all this information to ourself at reachability, but I think it's important we where. I've met us. We're over exactly where, but it is about like helping others, right, right? And in the process, there's likely many people out there who could be partners or stakeholders with reachability. So maybe it's a little selfish, but I'm a big believer one of my mottos, when someone says to me, oh, like, Would you be interested in sharing that? Yes, I would, because you should never reinvent the wheel, right? Like you may take my wheel and feel free to change out the spokes, but do what you need to do with it, because really right, like nobody's in competition with anybody else, really right, at

Tova Sherman 11:07 least we shouldn't be right well, and this is what, this is what I want to address. We're

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 11:12 all, we're all supposed to be offering services. So let's so let's just go registering with the joint. So asking the two questions,

Tova Sherman 11:19 why me? Who else is doing? Right? Then, if you decide

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 11:23 you're going to go forward with the business, okay, then you need to register your company. Come up with a name, right? That could get bounced back 14 times, because it has to meet certain criteria. So, you know, then you get to register. Okay? At that point, while all that's happening, you likely, then can be determining, am I going to need to do any fundraising? If the answer to that is no, if you're only you, you already know you're solely going to be surviving on grants, grant opportunities, then it's likely you don't need to have a charitable status, and you could move forward with your business plan. Business Plan, right, right? And maybe three years down the road you decide you want to have something event, right? Well, then apply for charitable status at that point, or, like Tova said, partner with somebody else who has the status, and you know, they would do all the event, taking of the money that is receipt, issuing of on your on your behalf, and you're then more of a partner to that event, you know, headlining like and you see now, you see a lot of organizations where events right are happening, and they're being co hosted, co led, right? And I actually love to see that, because I think there, it's one of my biggest things when I'm sitting on a board and I hear or working, you know, helping an organization where they say, Oh, we're going to start this program on, you know, building Lego blocks as an example. And I'm like, oh, okay, well, I do what Tova does. I'm like, who else is doing that in our community? And sometimes I know exactly who does the right community. And I'm like, Oh, well, XYZ is doing that? How's that different?

Tova Sherman 13:21 Right? My favorite answer though, Shelley, gotta stop because I'll lose it for sure with my ADHD. But my favorite answer is when they go well, but they're not doing it right, and then you gotta stop the train Exactly. And you gotta say, Okay, what does that mean to you? Is it not the way you would do it? Which case you really have to ask if it's still too redundant to expect a lot of funding, whether you like the way they do it or not. I've had to learn the hard way. It doesn't always matter if it's the way you in fact, it doesn't matter if it's the way you would do it, right. Are they doing it? Is it reasonably successful under the circumstances? And what makes you so sure that they should stop potentially funding one group to fund you? Be very clear what you're suggesting

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 14:03 Absolutely. And it is that, to me, is, is the crux there somebody else is already XYZ is offering. It doesn't matter if it's the way you want it or not, okay? You should actually be going to that organization, okay? And partnering with that organization, right, becoming a stakeholder, helping them support that particular Pro, let's grow that program, because they already have funding for that program, right? Yes. And you know, the government's no different than you know, organizations, big corporations, money's not grown on trees, okay? And they, you know, it is much easier to get funding, okay, for a well established program, okay, that you know that you want to grow to include now for other communities, right, because you have established right? So I think that's really important, is to think about like, okay, you know who? Who's doing this, this piece of piece of work, and you gotta keep testing that, you know, so many, so many times along the way. So there's a lot of things that I think that are very important to

Tova Sherman 15:12 like those things, to figure out the preliminary steps before you're even really

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 15:16 at the beginning. And you know, because I often do feel bad, like for new organizations, but similarly, okay, I see that as an issue for well established, okay, NGOs, right, who? And it's happened here at reachability, right, where we want to take, we're going to take another street, we're going to we're going to offer this right, but we forget to look at who else is offering that in the community, and instead, maybe we should be partnering with these are the five things we this is our core things. Okay, you do this really well. Let's partner on this, right? And I'll give you an example, like music, musicality, okay? For an Introduction to Music was something that, you know, BGC clubs like, it's about, you know, healthy growth of children, introducing them to new practices. Why would we hire a musician? Right? When there's a couple of really good, okay, organizations in HRM, right? That that's their soul. Like the McPhee Center has a well established music education. We for children. We partner, we partner with

Blake Hunsley 16:31 them. They're very nice to put them in the notes.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 16:35 It's allowing them to get more funding, right? But it's also allowing this other organization that's well established and has, okay, a huge membership of children and youth that are the exact target for that group. Okay, so now all of a sudden, we've taken, you know, we've probably allowed, we've allowed this group to get more programming, we've allowed this group to get more funding because they now have more members.

Tova Sherman 17:04 We've accomplished our goals. So my number one thing here is someone walk up to a whiteboard or a plain piece of paper, go to the far right side, the opposite of where we start writing, and put the word goal, and remind yourself first, what is my goal? Is my goal to make money, because that's okay. I need, I need an income as well as to help community. So then I have two goals to help the community and create revenue for myself. That's okay. A lot of people are doing that. I mean, you got to live or is my goal to ensure that everyone has a pair of mittens. Every homeless person has mittens. So, I mean, really, zone in on your goal, because what happens is, when we start trying to figure out how to get to that goal, things can get very diluted, a little complicated, and you're not sure which direction. But if your goals are clearly stated, and the thing you're about to do does not align with your two main goals, you need to stop your own train and ask why. And I've done this many times because I like to start at the goal and then figure out how to get there. And I have found that to be very instructional for me, to get me there in a way that's realistic and allow me to think more about for instance, when someone was unhappy with another agency, I always remember staff member coming in and me saying, Well, what do you want? Well, I'd like to let them know that they were wrong. I said, is that what you really want? Is that your number one goal, or is your number one goal to make it right and have people access what they're being told they're going to access right? And you're like, well, obviously I want to help the community, and I'm like, that's your goal. Don't let your emotions get in the way of your goals, because sometimes that person understanding they were wrong becomes too important, and it wasn't even on my goals. Well,

Blake Hunsley 18:47 I want to address something that happens sometimes, because I've seen you do this goal setting mapping exercise on your whiteboard daily for some for some years now. Yeah. And I want to be clear for people too, that doesn't always end with the whiteboard clearly filled out with a great plan from start to finish 50% of the time, maybe it ends with no this is absolutely it is not something that we're the best people for. Or there is someone out there who's doing a better job, or there's someone who's doing it, not in the way we necessarily would want to, but we can communicate with them, and we can possibly see if we can help to finagle some chances that way, the only time I've ever seen it, because I have to say, in five years of partnering with other agencies and with other stakeholders and Shelley, I'm curious if you've seen this too. My vibe for Halifax, for this sort of sector, is that we are actually not as competitive as I would have expected. We are quite happy to work with each other, I think in large part because we know that, like you said, it's increases your chance of success. But from a simple marketing perspective, having two agencies names on there, you've doubled your audience half the time. It's fantastic. The only time I've ever seen competition really kind of rear immediately out of the gate is when people skip that first step you're talking about. I took the phone call here one day and someone said that. Very well intentioned person said, I really want to start an NGO in Halifax to help provide employment support for. People with disabilities. How should I start? And I said honestly, probably calling an agency that's been doing that for 25 years, or coming in to tell us why we're doing such a bad job that you think you need to take over here. That's literally the only time. So yeah, person

Tova Sherman 20:13 could have used that couple of steps of who else doing it, and is there an opportunity to partner versus just try to well,

Blake Hunsley 20:19 they would have been mapping back one step away from your goal and realize, Oh, someone is actually addressing this goal today, every day. Perhaps

Tova Sherman 20:26 I could go talk to them and see about gaps. That would be my answer. I

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 20:29 want to talk about that goal, right? Because I'm a big believer on that as well. So that's, that's your end goal. Yeah, that's what you believe. You're you believe your goal is challenging that and like you, you kind of hit the nail on the head. Like, in most cases, there's a lot of roads, okay? There's not a straight line from idea to goal, because Tova talked about, like, thinking about that goal, like, what's it look like, right? I also want to add the time and people, place, location, because these are things that, if you've it's, it's starting a business, 101, yeah, right, whether it's going to be an NGO or a business, right, it's, we often don't think about all of those things, okay, which may, may require us to change Our goal, right, or our path to getting there? Because how big is this goal, right? How much time do I think it's going to take? Am I going to need more people to deliver this goal, like if I'm knitting mittens and I'm and my population is going to be knitting mittens for every senior in HRM every year to have a new pair of mittens, right? I'm, I'm going to just go to the limb, right? There's some fast knitters out there, but there's probably not just going to be me doing the knitting That's right, right? So then I'm going to need other people. Are those going to be volunteers? It? Or would there be enough knitters in all of like, HRM to do knitting. Would they? Am I going to be able to Where would I get these volunteers? Like, I don't actually have to go out and get them yet, but I have to have, I have to have a concept. I have to know otherwise you're going to roll this out, you're going to make these promises. You're going to have partnership with the seniors homes and gears. Not going to be any mittens, because there's a lot of holes in your plan, right? So thinking about those things, where am I going to be doing this? Like many people, start these things out of their home, right? And at what? And is that, can you start it from your home, right? If you're going to be having volunteers, do you want them coming to your home? Like, are meetings going to happen in your home? Do you have dogs, pets? Do you kids? Like, think, like all of those,

Blake Hunsley 22:56 how much of your personal life are you upending right to do a good thing your kids may really need, but it may not be that you may not have the proper setting. You're right. Something that I keep thinking about is it may just not be the right time. And I hate to tell people that, because I know that if they try and it's just not taking off, they are going to get discouraged and maybe stop anyone who's going to get discouraged like that. I want to tell them about a couple projects we've done here at reachability, where we've applied 3,4,5, times, because we believe in this project. We can see the community need. And it's just the funding is not there this year. The government priorities are not there this year.

Tova Sherman 23:28 And very much around priorities, you've also that's one piece. You've got to know what the government if you're looking for their funds, you've got to understand what it is their priorities are before you tell them what yours are.

Blake Hunsley 23:38 And they have to be willing to come back another year later, maybe two, three, that priority maybe is more real, yeah, but I suppose if it's something that is so important to you that you're willing to take on all of the labor of starting an agency, then it should be so core to what you desire that you're willing to come back

Tova Sherman 23:53 here. I also want to stop the train here, because you said labor, and I think that we have to remember there's many kinds of labor, and when it comes to non profit work, community work, dedicating yourself to our most marginalized citizens, something the team at reachability does. You also have to factor in the emotional labour we talk about this, which is something that people don't always talk about, and of course, is a big issue here at reachability, because I've seen it. I've seen people give so much to others. I always say it's a marathon, not a sprint, but oh my god, you've got to measure and you gotta not throw your entire being at a sad story, because sadly, there are a lot of them, and if we're going to be good to other people, we need to be able to measure our own emotional labor and how we're balancing that and staying healthy, not just for ourselves and our families, which is very important, but for this project that you've decided is incredibly important

Blake Hunsley 24:45 to you, because even if you don't have staff that are relying on you, you'll ideally have clients or community members that are, of course, relying on your services. But like you said, this is something that if you're going to do it full time, this needs to often support your family too. So there's a lot involved

Tova Sherman 24:59 there. I. Remember selling juice out of the back of my car for two years while we started up reach. Literally, I lived on $11,500 a year. I always remember that, because that's what I made out of the juice. And for two years I managed that, but I knew I was making a commitment to something bigger, and thank God it worked out. But ultimately, you know, there is going to be some level of things not going the way you hoped, and you've got to be resilient. There's a big word, folks resilient enough to bounce back, otherwise your goal is going to become unattainable, just because, perhaps, of the emotional labor, in addition to some of the realities,

Blake Hunsley 25:33 it's all the stress of starting a small business like a restaurant, plus all of the emotional labor of people in devastating need. And

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 25:39 now exactly, and it's not a point, and it's, let's just go back to okay, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Yeah, I think this plan, okay, is not going to happen in 30 days, it is not going to happen in 60 days, not going to happen in 90 days, realistically, okay, to develop that and research. Okay, all of that from start fit is likely going to be one year, right? And you know, you might be able to do it sooner if there's a group of you, and you're all taking yours, but in most cases, it's one person who came up with this idea, or even two people, and they've still got a full time job, okay, right? So you're having to find out all this information from you know who would be funders potential. You can figure out all of these things. And I want to say, like, don't, don't be don't be dismayed, because of this length of of time to get it right. Because when you get it right, you will be successful like, you know, let's to Tova's point like she knew that the plan was going to be slow and steady. She threw her plan created, you know, selling juice out of the car because she knew she had the right plan. But it even once she started it, it was going to take some time to get to full capacity. Like, you're not going to be like, okay, the shingles out and you're 100% successful on day two.

Tova Sherman 27:14 And what a roller coaster. Let's be honest. Again, you have to be able to manage your wellness as well. I'm someone who lives on the ADHD spectrum. I live with pretty serious anxiety disorder. I take medication, I see my therapist, I use self care. And you know, being in an emotional labor environment can be very hard on some of those disabilities, but I can tell you that my resilience has grown, my ability to stay positive in very difficult situations has been expanded out of necessity, and being open to allowing yourself to grow your resilience while doing this is extremely important, because it just breaks my heart when people have a great idea and they just burn out trying to get it out the door, I again recommend just To bring us around that you must reach out, ideally to an NGO, where you know people, where you feel you can talk to them, ask them, even if you can shadow if you want, and learn a bit. Apply for a job at an NGO. Apply to join a board and learn about governance. All of these pieces will bode well to your capacity to manage whatever comes

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 28:20 exactly. And in absence of that, in absence of not knowing an NGO, somebody had an NGO, you likely in your circle, okay, know somebody who owns their own business, right, and who could at least give you, you know, because it's kind of similar right, like, how did they get set up, right? And this, you know, we are a community. Everybody has a little piece of the puzzle. And don't be afraid to be asking, right? Because, as an NGO, if you're afraid to ask today for help, as an NGO, you are not going to be successful, because you're going to be having your hand out right for the rest of your NGO career.

Blake Hunsley 29:04 And I know it sounds like we're making we're clearly laying out the difficulties here in doing this. We don't want to scare anyone off this, because, on the one hand, yes, we want you to come to agencies like reachability first, just so we can help you get your ideas off the ground and you can help us improve our programming. But while we're talking about the emotional labor portion of this, we really should mention as well, if you manage to start or even join an NGO, and you're really doing good work in the community, yes, that emotional labor, some weeks can be really tough, and some weeks you affect such change on such a level, it's the entire staff leaves out of here beaming like on a

Tova Sherman 29:39 high Absolutely. Every difference in your community

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 29:46 every day. One of the things that we do on several of the boards that I, either, you know, oversee from a governance perspective or sit on, is as board members, because we're not actually in the business, we actually see. Our board meeting okay by hearing Okay, some positive thing that's happened in that organization since our last meeting, like some reason, and it's those stories that keep your board members coming back, right? And there are so many positive things. And I think that people who are interested to have an idea for starting an NGO. We need more of those people, right? And I think that while not all of those people likely need to start an NGO, right, I the fact that they have an idea, reach out,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 30:35 we can connect you, because it's community helping community.

Tova Sherman 30:39 Exactly. Yeah, that's what I call a win, win, win, by the way, because the person trying to get something started wins, obviously the community they're serving wins, and most importantly, the entire community wins when we're reaching out to assist each other. That's magic. When that's happening.

Blake Hunsley 30:53 Well, the wins are kind of what I want to pivot to, too, because we started, you know, as we always do, we start with the potential pitfalls and the negatives and how to prepare yourself. You know, scare off the ones who aren't quite so sure. But if you're committed to this, Tova, you've been doing this for 25 years. I see this most every weekday for the last five years, what you're up to and you're it's not an easy gig. So 25 years in, skip the pitfalls remote. What are the successes that have made it worth it for you? What are the things you look back on and go, geez, this really was a good idea. I think I'm going to keep at this for the next however

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 31:23 many Blake. I think Blake was

Blake Hunsley 31:25 probably an okay idea. Obviously, just the best

Tova Sherman 31:27 of the last five trying to quit. We kept bringing them back, but it worked out. But in all seriousness, and yes, that's true, all seriousness, I do want to say something, because you're right. What keeps you going? Because, boy, there's plenty of things that can bum you out. And the answer is, when you bump into someone who you helped 10 years ago, when you bump into someone who comes up to you and says, you know, I've seen a few people you worked with. We had someone in the other day who was going on and on about all the people she knew whose lives were affected in the most positive way by very limited time at reachability. I mean, the most people stay here is like six weeks, and that's if you're really stretching it out. But the truth be told, the work we do is very intensive. It's short term, but the results have been beyond my imagination. And for every one or two people who go, this isn't for me, and you can't please everyone, there's three or four people, which is a much better percentage, saying this actually got me rolling. And for me, as a person with disability who grew up being bullied, grew up seeing people in marginalized communities really treated badly lesser, this was my life's goal to make sure other people didn't experience that, and that's why you'll see people take on the emotional labor, they'll take on the low pay, they'll take on a lot. You can almost look in the eyes and say, You know what it's like, don't you? Because you are here 110% and those folks both as a team member, to see people care that much, and then to see the result with the client. I feel like I win Academy Awards every time, literally, like it's an award, because I'm, I'm so excited and pleased for someone to go, you know, hear my voice. And instead of going, Uh Oh, that's Tova, which happens, I love hearing, oh, my goodness, is that Tova? Then I know it was a client. I want you to know that it means more to me than anything, to see people years later, because we get to have that luxury at 25 and say, Oh my God, you were the person that got me started. And in

Blake Hunsley 33:29 a community this size, because I find there's two types of people when it comes to reachability and Halifax, there people go, reachability, I think I've heard of you. A lot of people go, Oh my god. Reachability did this for this person in my family. Reachability did this for this for this person in my work, they brought me this fantastic coworker, right? I've worked in both for profit and not for profit. I don't care about meeting a sales target at the end of the day. I never have. For some people, that's a great motivation for them, wonderful, more than happy for them. I would rather make a couple bucks less an hour and not have to worry about that and know that I'm actually going to make a real, tangible difference in somebody's life this week, which most weeks, I gotta say, we do.

Tova Sherman 34:07 I'm very blessed to be able to share with my staff their successes and how those successes spurn us all on to do more and to be more creative and to push ourselves farther. It's such a symbiotic relationship. It really is. And people think we're given to the client, but, oh my god, we're getting so much Absolutely. And if you don't feel that, and you're working in nonprofit, you're not in the right role, exactly.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 34:31 And you know, in almost the majority of cases, people working in a not for profit, right, are dealing with, you know, vulnerable, 100% vulnerable parts of the community. And I think it's important okay, like to kind of, you know, tag on what you know, both Blake, you and Tova are saying in, you know, take being, you know, celebrating those successes. Because in self care, we're often every day. Dealing with, like, some pretty tough things that you know we have to carry. And you know, when you might want to think at the end of the day or the end of the week, oh my gosh. What this was? One heck of a week that you know you do have to put in some very intentional, you know, positivity, gratitude pieces. And, you know, I just want to share, you know, something that is happening here at reachability is they have a big box that's the gratitude box that they've started

Tova Sherman 35:31 so far. Never over full. It's a huge box.

Blake Hunsley 35:36 a monster. But there's

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 35:37 actually quite a few in there. I just, I just, I just checked. And anybody can write a little gratitude. It can be, you know, confidential. It can just be some and throw that in there. And that, on Monday mornings, at the start of their weekly team meeting, they start off with some gratitude. So it's starting off the week, you know, positive. Some are, you know, little bits of humor some are , you know, just some plain old gratitude. I those. Those are the types of things that like, as you know you're thinking about an NGO, that you'll also want to put in place. Like to to level up your your reason, your reason for being, and to not forget about which I think will be very important in the first phases of running an NGO, that you'll want to put some intentional pieces in to celebrate those successes. Because at the beginning, it's going to seem like a lot of work, but to tova's point, 25 years later, right? Still, you know intentionally, you know celebrating the successes, you have

Tova Sherman 36:42 to you have to remind people that we're if you didn't feel it this week, you will next week, you know? I mean, there has to be that... And I just want to say, because I know we're running out of time, this is really important to me as well. People often ask me about the fundraising piece, and we didn't really get to it. Maybe we'll do another one next year on this. But I just wanted to say that reachability does not fundraise. It's very unusual. We don't fundraise. We partner. And I mean that sincerely, whether it's a foundation like our good partners at the Nova Scotia Law Foundation, I'm sorry, Law Foundation of Nova Scotia, and they do some great work with us and so on. It's about partnership. And if you have an idea and you somehow don't find anyone doing it? First of all, you are a creative genius. Because very little I come up with that I think is ingenious, isn't somebody already done? I know can think of a few examples for me writing someone going, I've got the best idea, and it's like you and 900 other people. I was a little

Blake Hunsley 37:34 shocked. Don't be offended if that's the response. But if

Tova Sherman 37:39 you find that unique idea, and no one is really doing it. I urge you to, because your community clearly needs it. You've seen it, you've experienced it potentially, and now it's your role to figure out and with other people whatever support you need and make it happen, because the rewards will fire away. So I was talking about fundraising. We're partnered. We partner a lot. We do not have golf tournaments, and we do not have dinners. And I'm not against anyone. Who does I get it. It's a piece of not being a nonprofit. We've decided to keep it small, keep it tight and stay away from it, because, frankly, it can take so much time from the real work, and I don't want anyone to be discouraged. What happened to my great idea? I never knit any more blankets. All I do is call people and ask them for money for wool. What's happened to this? There's both pieces you're not going to be able to necessarily be exclusively. One thing we decided on a social enterprise, which is really us, our own people, going out and speaking on issues that they are experts in, such as issues around disability confidence, something we talk about a lot, and I have a book about called Win, win, win and other things like that, and that supplemented some of those core things. So we took a road much less traveled. And I must tell you, during COVID, when everyone was really desperately trying to figure out how to do their fundraising, we were lucky enough not to have to panic about that. So it's a different model, and it's not the easiest model, but it's one we chose, and we've been able to build on and create, like almost our own speakers bureau of experts. And I find that very rewarding as well. So we're not spending six months trying to get people to come to a golf or a dinner, you know. And that was hard for me, because I didn't want us to become that type of agent. No and again, no offense, but it's not for one style. It's a style, and it's not our

Blake Hunsley 39:30 style. And I think that actually, if I think that actually leads to one more good piece of advice for somebody starting out, keep your mission narrow. We were talking about this yesterday, reach abilities. Core missions have always been essentially the same. We offer emotional support programs and employment support programs primarily for people with disabilities, and we're not exclusive to people with disabilities or inclusive to everyone of every disability and every ability,

Tova Sherman 39:53 but when we see a marginalized community, we want to equalize the playing field. That's our mantra. But we've

Blake Hunsley 39:58 noticed there. Are a lot of budget cuts happening these days? Yeah, we've seen this happen to another and number of other agencies we, to date, have been quite lucky. And one of the reasons we think that this is is because we've kept our mandate so narrow. We've seen other agencies who have their original mandate is, say, to aid this particular group, but they also start chasing the grant exactly yes, and then so they've also added an employment arm, or they've also added, as we had at one point or a theater festival and movie festival arts, right arts and culture. And these are now getting cut. People are getting these extra programs, these, even if they're extra value, adds to their core programming. They're really getting them to the funding to sheared right off. And we haven't, so far. We're keeping fingers crossed here, even though you can't see it, because we've kept that focus on our core mandate.

Tova Sherman 40:47 We are very much an agency where people have gone through other agencies not had success, and in a sense, we're like the last stop on the train, and I'm it's heartbreaking on one hand, but heartwarming on the other, to hear people say, Where have you been the last 10 years? Well, I've been here. I wish I would have met you before. Yeah, but you're here now. Let's figure it

Blake Hunsley 41:04 out exactly and we're not trying to solve all of your problems all at once because we know that we can't. We're going to get bogged down, and we'll sit with the same five clients for five years and get nowhere. So yeah, keep your mission as tight as possible. It'll be easier for fundraising, but it'll also be easier just to keep yourself from going insane trying to solve

Tova Sherman 41:19 every problem by having your values clear what your values are, three or four strong values, you're also able then to communicate that much better to potential partners, both in the private, public and nonprofit industry. And the last thing I

Blake Hunsley 41:32 would say is don't try to do everything yourself, because it's going to be hard to find any money to pay for professional assistance at the start. But I mean, Shelley, we have you here because you're a legal and HR expert. We have our accountants who are experts at what they do, and it's taken us time to get to the point where we can afford these services. Sure, but we don't try to do those things ourselves, because we are too busy helping our clients, and we would just make an absolute hash of it. So no, there are some things you're going to have to find a way to pay for real professionals.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 42:01 Exactly. Yeah, it's your it's the core. Core. Stick to your core. Yeah, right. It's why Tim Hortons shouldn't be doing pizza

Tova Sherman 42:09 or Yes, oh my god, I was in the Tim Hortons the other day. I we lost our Tim Hortons. I waited forever, and the guy pulled a pizza. I said, Why am I waiting behind someone for a coffee. And sure enough, pizza came out the window, and then everything opened up again.

Blake Hunsley 42:26 As much as we're gonna

Tova Sherman 42:27 try not to slang

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 42:28 you terribly, this piece is getting cut.

Blake Hunsley 42:31 This piece, may get cut,

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 42:33 it will get

Blake Hunsley 42:34 cut. Oh, we could have used some sponsorship.

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 42:38 All right. Still, they are actually a very good sponsor, I will have to say, of NGOs.

Blake Hunsley 42:44 Oh, okay. Tim Hortons

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 42:46 is Boys and Girls Club. Yeah, they and to many others. Yes,

Blake Hunsley 42:49 well, we're not going to devastate some of our partners. Yes. Where are we? If you're just tuning back in, we definitely didn't alienate a potential doner or sponsor. Now, um, honestly, I think we're pretty good. I think we have, hopefully not completely turned people off the idea of starting an NGO. I hope that we've made it more more clear, more realistic of what a kind of daunting hill you have to climb at the start. But more importantly, there's a very good chance somebody is already trying whether they're doing it exactly right. Solving the problem that you're seeing is irrelevant. Go and talk to them. Don't be afraid to knock on the door of an NGO and have a good conversation

Tova Sherman 43:26 with I'd love to hear somebody's ideas, if they're productive. Honestly, I'm curious as heck on how we could do it better. There's lots of things we're frustrated about that we're trying to maneuver our way. I would love somebody to come in and go, I think I've got a solution for you on this issue, and I'd be like, bring it on

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 43:43 Exactly. Or even if you have an idea, you actually think you want to try an NGO, or you just have a great idea for the community, call up an NGO. Tova just talked about she has these genius ideas, only to find out 900 other people have the same idea. It's never stopped Tova from coming up with ideas. It's ever another one of the reasons of the success of the organization. So we want to hear about the ideas. That's part of being a community, right? If you have an idea. I'm always a big believer that there's a likely many other people who rob to have that in him,

Tova Sherman 44:21 just not come forward. And that takes me to my thing, which is, don't work in a silo. Even though we've talked at the beginning about getting your stuff together and doing yourself and thinking about your idea, the truth is, don't work in a silo, because people like me who work in silos come up with crazy ideas, frankly, and needs other people to go, really you thought that was a good idea jumping out of a plane while you knit a blanket. I don't want to say that's how my job is here. I don't want to say it sounds unique. But, you know, so the idea really genuinely being you need to bounce some of this stuff off people, because sometimes you get into your own head and you think, Oh, my God, this is going to be great, and there's such an obvious gap.

Blake Hunsley 44:54 And if you're sitting there worrying, thinking, but if I approach an existing NGO, and they're all big, and they have existing funds. Thing, and this is a fabulous idea. Well, they just steal my idea. We're so busy trying to accomplish what's already on our plate. No, we won't steal your idea. I might offer you a job and write a grant. We might facilitate you creating your own adventure here in this particular area. We'll do it again.

Unknown Speaker 45:18 Absolutely, exactly. All right, we

Blake Hunsley 45:20 haven't spoken too much.

Tova Sherman 45:22 If there's anyone still listening to the idea wants to do it also, you can reach out to any of us. We're very open. People will communicate with you, whether that's blake@reachability.org I won't give your email out without your permission, Shelley, but or tova@reachability.org and we'd be happy to talk to you about your idea and how you might be able to take it to the next level. And

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 45:43 I'm also happy for you to reach out to me. At Shelley, S, H, E, L, L, E, y, at H, R, onthego.ca, I'm always happy to chat with people. E, for

Blake Hunsley 45:51 exceptional I'll have you know it's always spelled correctly in the transcript, despite the fact that AI, it spells it incorrectly every time we go through and fix speaking of transcription episodes, this has been episode number 12. This is our season finale. Somehow, if you can believe it, we're going to take the summer off because, as we mentioned, we're busy people, and we have a lot to do around here, but we are very much looking forward to coming back in, hopefully September, maybe slightly later, as with all things nonprofit, depends on funding, of course,

Tova Sherman 46:21 but I do want to say if anyone listening has any ideas on things they'd like to hear from, just like we did with the NGO business where we were getting calls, let us know. Drop Blake an email and let us know what you'd like to

Blake Hunsley 46:32 hear about, exactly, if there's something you want us to cover, if you'd like to come on as a guest. We've had some great people from outside the agency on his guest this year. Our goal for season two is to have, ideally, primarily guests from outside. Reachability. We did a lot of inside baseball, which was important this year, I think, as an establishing season. But we're excited to hear you now. So reach out to us. We're within or withinourreach@reachability.org or you can call reachability any day of the week, at 902-429-5878, again. My name is Blake. I'm here with my co host, Shelley McLeod. Thank you very much, Shelley, thank

Shelley Alward-MacLeod 47:06 you. I enjoyed this season immensely. It's one of the highlights, okay to come and do the podcast. So not to

Blake Hunsley 47:16 mention, we had someone come into the office the other day and say, Oh, I recognize that name. I've listened to every episode, you can come back to join our board. Tova, thank you for joining us again. We've had, we've been lucky to have you a few times this season. We really appreciate,

Tova Sherman 47:33 I appreciate what you do do. Because if anybody thinks they're making any money off this, you don't know about NGOs, how's that, but thank you both.

Blake Hunsley 47:40 There's our final word on if you're looking to start an NGO to make some money. Don't. you

Tova Sherman 47:44 know what they used to say about the restaurant business, you want to make a million in the restaurant business. Start with two. Well, I feel like that's a little bit of a vibe. You want

Blake Hunsley 47:51 to make a million dollars in the NGO business. Start you're in your own business. Yeah, exactly on that positive note, thank you all for this.

Tova Sherman 47:59 All the best happy season.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai