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Maisie: Page 94, the Private Eye Podcast

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Andy: Hello and welcome to
another episode of Page 94.

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My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and
I'm here in the Private Eye office with

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Helen Lewis, Adam McQueen and Ian Hislop.

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We are here to discuss, again, the three
totally unrelated stories from the last

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week's news, with the link of course,
that they have all been covered or will

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soon be covered in Private Eye Magazine.

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So there you go.

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There's the thematic
link: it's Private Eye.

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First we're going to go to America.

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We're gonna talk about the ongoing
mission to Maga, Make America Great

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again... the MAGA-agggh movement
as it should better be known.

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So Helen, not everything is rosy in
the White House Rose Garden, is it?

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Helen: This is the falling out of the
MAGA movement and President Trump's

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appointees to the FBI and Attorney
General over the death of Jeffrey Epstein.

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So there's a whole cadre of people
who were like radio hosts, podcasters,

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maybe people who just say a lot of
stuff on Twitter, like Cat Turd Two,

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if you're familiar with his work.

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Of course.

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Elon Musk reply guys, but they are a
kind of really big and influential cohort

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who have essentially four people who
are big fans of Donald Trump completely

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replaced the mainstream media because
for those people, even Fox News...

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who will say things like Donald Trump
lost the 2020 election are a bit soft

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and weak, and to the extent they're
so important that, Caroline Levit,

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the White House Press secretary, had a
special influencers own briefings, which

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were, they made North Korea look like
a kind of loose lipped confederation of

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Adam: was this the one where the guy
from Mumford and Sons, Peter Marshall's

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son turned up and asked a mad question.

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Helen: Yes he did.

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He's and he did as they all did.

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He's so thankful for you to being here.

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Just amazing to be here.

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there's also a special MAGA influencer
seat at the regular press briefing.

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So you have ABC and the New
York Times and all of those.

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And then they bring in somebody who
is, host of weekly world news kind of

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equivalents, who usually starts their
question by going, unlike the lying legacy

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media here, I want to know how great
is Donald Trump Anyway, so they're, all

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terribly split about Jeffrey Epstein.

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Andy: Can you give us a very
quick recap just for listeners

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who weren't paying attention?

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Jeffrey Epstein and his crimes

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Helen: Disgraced financier
and child sex trafficker.

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He managed, lots of money.

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He, portrayed himself as a billionaire,
which he absolutely wasn't.

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He was managing other people's money and
he portrayed himself in lots of ways.

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Like he, he would wear Harvard
sweaters despite having not been to

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Harvard... in common with many of the,
I was gonna say, in no other ways for

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lawyer, for the lawyer's purposes.

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Jeffrey Archer used to say that
he'd been to Oxford, remember?

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When he'd naturally been to like a,

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Ian: a teacher training college!

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Yeah.

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Adam: We both jumped in there in stereo.

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Rapid response!

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Ian: Not we could, fact did, a
Mastermind round on Archer once.

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Andy: Did you?

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Ian: Anyway, we don't need to
go into obsessive lunatics.

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Helen: But there's clearly a, playbook
for people who want to seem movers and

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shakers and some of the things that.

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Epstein did were that he would have
a kind of lively social circle.

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He found a few influential kind
of New York society gatekeepers,

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Floridian society gatekeepers,
and weasel his way in with them.

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But in the 2000s, he was also investigated
for... a 14-year-old, said that she and

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her friends had been asked to go over
to his house and give him massages.

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Then there was a situation in which
the police found a load of evidence,

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but the prosecutors convinced him
to go for a really low charge.

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He was only done for two counts of
soliciting a minor for prostitution

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and was on day release, he
served a sentence... 13 months

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sentence where he had a tv.

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They didn't lock his cell door, and
he was essentially, got away with it.

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The guy who was in charge of that,
the prosecutor, was later named

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as... in Donald Trump's first term,
his Secretary of Labor, Alex Acosta.

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Donald Trump himself was also a 'friend,'
or at least a fellow partier of Epstein,

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who was a member of Mar-a-Lago at one
point, and he once gave this monstrous

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quote in 2002, Donald Trump, saying
'he likes like me, he likes girls.

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And I hear he likes them on the
younger side', which is one of

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those things, in retrospect,
doesn't look as great as it did.

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But there's this-

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Ian: I shouldn't think
it looked that great

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Helen: Even in the wild back, all
things very different than Ian.

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In 2002, you just, people
thought differently.

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They wore skinny jeans.

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It was terrible.

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But yeah, so there's been this
longstanding feeling that,

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first of all, there were two.

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There were two kind of
Epstein very strange things.

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The first is the fact that he really
got away with it the first time there

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was a sweetheart deal from prosecutors.

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Then, a very brave journalist called
Julie Brown at the Miami Herald

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pursued that deal and said how
unbelievably corrupt it was and

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particularly linking it to that Trump's
first term appointment, that this was

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the guy in charge of it, at which point
in the people, the Feds basically got

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back involved in investigating him again.

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He was arrested in 2019 and not long
after that was found hanged in his cell.

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And this has been at the source of
many, conspiracy theories since.

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Most bits of MAGA will... do not
believe that he killed himself.

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They believe he was either an
intelligence asset or he was friends

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with people who had his little client
list and he would've outed them in

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court and therefore he couldn't simply
could not be allowed to get to trial.

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again, to talk about Eye villains the
past, some of the bits of this are quite

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reminiscent of Maxwell 'cause there
were lots of these things about Maxwell

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disappearing off the back of his yacht
and how unbelievably convenient that was.

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The story itself, when I was
reading back through, it just seems

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very familiar in lots of ways.

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it.

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It partly plays into conspiracy
theories, but it also plays into

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actual conspiracies, which is the
fact that very rich and powerful

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men do get away with sexual abuse.

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There is an actual conspiracy here,
which is that lots and lots of

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people went on his private jet to his
island, saw things that are probably

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actionable legally, and yet...

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Apart from him and Ghislaine
Maxwell, they procured those people.

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No one has actually seen justice

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Adam: And there were genuine, these,
case files have now not emerged.

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the American government saying, oh,
they don't exist after all having

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bigged them up for many years.

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But there were the flight
logs, weren't they?

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there were some extraordinary Donald Trump
featured on a lot of the flight logs of

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taking flights on Epstein's private jets.

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Bill Clinton did.

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all

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Helen: Stephen Hawking went
to, yeah, went scuba diving.

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I think he went scuba diving.

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He went on a trip there.

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There was scuba diving.

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The Clintons were involved.

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Jess Daly of Barclays, for
example, has now been barred.

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Is this right and

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Adam: yeah, yeah, He was, he is the
boss of Barclays actually related

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to his time at JP Morgan Chase
before that where he worked very

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closely with with Jeffrey Epstein.

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he was back in call.

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He, was, he received a lifetime
ban from the financial conduct

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authority in 2023, which he tried
to appeal earlier this year.

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Interestingly, not actually for his
connections with Jeffrey Epstein,

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but for lying to the Board of
Barclays about 'em at the time.

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He said, that he, didn't have
a close relationship with him.

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Since then in mostly sort of
self-administered, because it was in

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the case he brought trying to appeal his
ban by the Financial Conduct Authority.

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All sorts of extraordinary, thousands
of emails come out, in which the

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two of them, Epstein and, Elli
referred to each other as family.

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It turned out Staley's student
daughter, called him Uncle Jeffrey.

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And he was helping out.

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out with sort of university applications
and all sorts of stuff like that.

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there's an awful

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lot of, it's causing trouble for lots of

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Helen: People

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still, Melinda French Gates,
the ex-wife of Bill Gates.

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So one of the reasons that she
left Bill Gates was that she

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found out his infidelities and
his friendship with Epstein.

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So there were a lot of people
caught in this dragnet.

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One of whom of course is Prince
Andrew of blessed memory.

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Yes.

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who went to a, dinner in New
York, hosted for Epstein after

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he had this sweetheart plea deal,
involving underage sex offenses.

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Andy: Can I check?

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One of the things that I have read
about Epstein is that obviously his

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interest was in bigging up that he
knew all of these people and so that he

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might have inflated these friendships.

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Now obviously I know in the case of
for example, Prince Andrew, we've

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got photos of them walking together.

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We've got records of their friendship,
outside Epstein's recollection.

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Is that the case with some of these
others, or is, I presume these

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are all quite well documented?

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Helen: Yeah, otherwise you
wouldn't be able to publish it.

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during his life, Epstein was incredibly
litigious and had a very full court press.

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he did that classic strategy of
just, saying, I'm gonna come after

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you, and then also like astroturfing
sites about him, him and he also

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did that thing, which I think.

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you'll know this from, the Eye.

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People just appear out of nowhere
and because someone that they know

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is semi vouch for them, they don't
do any more research themselves.

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Ian: It's Bernie Madoff, isn't it?

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Helen: And once crack into somewhere-

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Ian: ...rich people are
fantastically gullible.

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it should always be remembered.

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And if another rich person says
he's okay, they go, he must be okay.

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He's a big yoga teacher, and

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Helen: Yeah.

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So there, I think there was a lot of that.

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He was just somebody that hung
around, like he used to go

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and eat in Harvard's Canteen.

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He just one of those people
who appeared and everybody

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treated him like he was normal.

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Adam: And he was, the Prince Andrew
connections, he was invited to a party

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at Windsor, a party at Sandringham,
I think one of the daughter's...

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Prince Andrew's daughter's 60th
birthday parties as well, this, would

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not distant relationships at all.

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And actually new stuff is still emerging.

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In the Jess Daily case earlier this year,
it came out that even after the, , contact

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with him that Prince Andrew had been
forced to admit to, in that disastrous

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News Night interview, there were in fact
emails from about six months after that

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in 2011, in which, Epstein said to Prince
Andrew, keep in close touch and we'll

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play some more with four exclamation
marks, which... you have to hope that

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we're talking about golf at that point-

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Ian: Or tennis, but I don't
believe either and nor do you.

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So your point was that perhaps
Epstein bigged up the friendships.

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We are now in an area where everyone
is bigging down their friendships

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and saying they barely knew him.

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Trump in particular is saying,
hardly registered at all.

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And what I want to ask, Helen is
it now the fact that conspiracy

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theories loved Epstein when it might,
make the Democrats look terrible?

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Now it's making the Republicans look bad.

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Helen: he had been a, Democratic
donor, he'd donated to several, but

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he was one of those people who hung
around sort of New York and Florida

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and therefore everybody knew him.

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, So it wasn't purely
Democrat, but you are right.

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Before this election, you get JD Vance
saying, 'release the client list'.

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The feeling is it's going to implicate
lots of people, like lots of posh

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liberals, basically in tech and the arts.

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Not that it's going to implicate anybody
in Republican circles, Pam Bondi, who's

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the Attorney General said she had the
client list on her desk earlier this

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year and now says it doesn't exist.

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Adam: And it was a deliberate electoral
thing to deliberately exploit.

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This kind of conspiracy theory, wasn't it?

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'cause they were saying, we're
gonna release all the JFK files,

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and all the UFO files as well.

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They were absolutely playing
to that, that, that, kind

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of, that, that marketplace.

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Helen: Yeah.

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Deep state essentially all of it.

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So if you wanna understand Maga, one
of the things you have to understand

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is it's deeply anti-establishment.

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It thinks it has a touching faith
in the ability of the federal

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Government to do stuff: coverups.

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Nothing.

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It doesn't believe it
can do anything else.

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00:10:20,899 --> 00:10:24,229
Doesn't believe it can run veteran
services or USAID or anything like that.

229
00:10:24,319 --> 00:10:26,329
But it think the one thing
it's actually bang up doing is

230
00:10:26,329 --> 00:10:28,099
covering up assassination attacks.

231
00:10:28,741 --> 00:10:28,831
Ian: Yes.

232
00:10:28,831 --> 00:10:31,081
This level of competence
is highly unlikely,

233
00:10:31,201 --> 00:10:31,976
Helen: It's very hurtful.

234
00:10:32,311 --> 00:10:35,221
but the thing is that the suicide
is relatively suspicious in the

235
00:10:35,221 --> 00:10:36,571
sense that lots of things happened.

236
00:10:36,571 --> 00:10:39,451
So for example, there were two
guards on duty, but neither of them

237
00:10:39,451 --> 00:10:41,641
did the hourly checks they were
supposed to be doing on the night.

238
00:10:42,094 --> 00:10:44,434
Half of the cameras in the wing were down.

239
00:10:44,674 --> 00:10:47,224
For example, Epstein's cellmate
got moved out a day before.

240
00:10:47,404 --> 00:10:51,094
But the problem is a lot of this
is explicable by prisons being

241
00:10:51,094 --> 00:10:52,894
poorly staffed and maintained.

242
00:10:52,904 --> 00:10:55,694
Ian: If that was in a British prison,
you'd think, of course the cameras don't

243
00:10:55,694 --> 00:10:59,054
work, and why would anyone do the shifts?

244
00:10:59,154 --> 00:11:02,724
Andy: Can I check this split that
you're mentioning in the MAGA movement?

245
00:11:02,904 --> 00:11:04,494
this the MAGA base?

246
00:11:04,539 --> 00:11:05,409
Helen: And the influencers.

247
00:11:05,409 --> 00:11:05,799
Yeah.

248
00:11:05,874 --> 00:11:08,694
Andy: So base and influencers
are on the same side in this...?

249
00:11:08,739 --> 00:11:09,579
Helen: Almost all of them.

250
00:11:09,579 --> 00:11:13,599
So people like say Mike Cernovich,
who was one of the Pizzagate people,

251
00:11:13,614 --> 00:11:15,264
Andy: Which we covered on
this podcast, didn't we?

252
00:11:15,264 --> 00:11:15,324
Yeah.

253
00:11:15,324 --> 00:11:15,804
Which was,

254
00:11:15,804 --> 00:11:18,474
Ian: I went and visited the, pizza place.

255
00:11:18,864 --> 00:11:23,544
And there isn't a basement and the person
who runs it is incredibly charming and the

256
00:11:23,544 --> 00:11:26,334
whole thing was total and utter nonsense.

257
00:11:26,464 --> 00:11:27,664
Helen: Yeah, he's very upset about this.

258
00:11:27,664 --> 00:11:30,574
Alex Jones, not the delightful
one from The One Show, but the

259
00:11:30,574 --> 00:11:35,104
big walrus one from Info Wars also
thinks there must be something here.

260
00:11:35,134 --> 00:11:39,784
Laura Luma feature of many of my US
icons because I enjoy her enormously.

261
00:11:40,414 --> 00:11:44,944
Tucker Carlson is on this, Benny Johnson,
fired from Buzzfeed for plagiarism

262
00:11:45,094 --> 00:11:49,954
since the ideological 180 and is now
a mega MAGA influencer and obviously

263
00:11:49,954 --> 00:11:51,634
as previously mentioned, Cat Turd.

264
00:11:52,339 --> 00:11:53,599
Ian: can I just say how Marvel it is?

265
00:11:53,599 --> 00:11:54,679
You sit there going, yes.

266
00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,809
He was a, , an online influencer
and now he seems to be Secretary

267
00:11:57,809 --> 00:11:59,089
of State of the entire world.

268
00:11:59,689 --> 00:12:02,629
the career progression, in
the United States is quite

269
00:12:02,629 --> 00:12:04,354
difficult for us to cope with.

270
00:12:04,429 --> 00:12:04,570
Oh,

271
00:12:04,744 --> 00:12:05,464
Helen: wild, isn't it?

272
00:12:05,464 --> 00:12:07,864
It's like someone going from sort
of heart fm to being head of MI

273
00:12:08,239 --> 00:12:11,359
Adam: But it's, it's literally,
In the case of Kennedy, it's,

274
00:12:11,359 --> 00:12:14,209
it is actual lunatic fringe
conspiracy theorists to health

275
00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:14,734
Helen: secretaries now.

276
00:12:15,724 --> 00:12:16,474
Robert, FKG.

277
00:12:16,534 --> 00:12:16,864
Yes,

278
00:12:16,864 --> 00:12:17,916
Ian: But your point is that.

279
00:12:18,576 --> 00:12:21,906
It is quite funny that all these
people who were out in that

280
00:12:21,906 --> 00:12:23,496
conspiracy theories are now in

281
00:12:23,496 --> 00:12:26,556
office saying, look,
there's no conspiracy here.

282
00:12:26,556 --> 00:12:28,836
I dunno why you all think
there's a conspiracy.

283
00:12:28,956 --> 00:12:29,616
There isn't.

284
00:12:29,761 --> 00:12:29,971
Helen: Yes.

285
00:12:31,081 --> 00:12:31,261
funny.

286
00:12:31,321 --> 00:12:32,491
Why won't you believe me?

287
00:12:32,491 --> 00:12:33,931
It's I didn't believe anybody else.

288
00:12:33,931 --> 00:12:35,731
Have you not ever had any encounters?

289
00:12:35,731 --> 00:12:37,231
They wouldn't leave the
last head of the FBI.

290
00:12:37,531 --> 00:12:42,001
You have dented your credibility simply
by becoming head of the FBI, but it does

291
00:12:42,001 --> 00:12:44,101
point to the fact that, for these people,

292
00:12:44,436 --> 00:12:49,146
there are so little trust in institutions
like how, but it also reflects

293
00:12:49,356 --> 00:12:50,886
the, oneness of the MAGA movement.

294
00:12:50,886 --> 00:12:53,886
The only thing that unites it
really is that belief in Trump.

295
00:12:54,336 --> 00:12:58,486
And I was watching the Turning Point USA
conference, which is run by Charlie Kirk.

296
00:12:58,486 --> 00:13:02,836
It's one of those kind of grassroots,
young Gen Z, online right Conservatives.

297
00:13:03,256 --> 00:13:06,076
And I was just reflecting on the fact
there's almost nobody really who.

298
00:13:06,411 --> 00:13:10,011
Straightforwardly inherits the Trump
mantle who can just; their word is law.

299
00:13:10,221 --> 00:13:12,681
The closest I think you'll
ever come is Tucker Carlson.

300
00:13:12,681 --> 00:13:14,871
Now, he believes some
truly bonkers things.

301
00:13:15,011 --> 00:13:17,631
He, thought he was attacked by
a demon in his sleep last year.

302
00:13:18,181 --> 00:13:20,157
... but occasionally he says something
that's also extremely cogent.

303
00:13:20,337 --> 00:13:22,437
it's bad that young people
can't buy a house; they've got

304
00:13:22,437 --> 00:13:23,577
no investment in the future.

305
00:13:24,537 --> 00:13:26,547
But, I think what this reveals is...

306
00:13:26,727 --> 00:13:27,657
even Trump is.

307
00:13:27,692 --> 00:13:29,132
Struggling to damp it down.

308
00:13:29,132 --> 00:13:33,422
He did a slightly mad true social post
that began: boys, or in some places,

309
00:13:33,422 --> 00:13:36,662
gals stop talking about Jeffrey Epstein.

310
00:13:36,907 --> 00:13:37,747
Andy: Oh, that'll do it:

311
00:13:37,747 --> 00:13:40,595
Helen: so it's, I think it's a really
interesting example of him losing control

312
00:13:40,595 --> 00:13:45,155
of the base and in, in a way him not
being able to shimmy into being in tune

313
00:13:45,155 --> 00:13:47,045
with them, which is fascinating to me.

314
00:13:47,045 --> 00:13:48,650
Ian: And is is that dangerous for him?

315
00:13:49,595 --> 00:13:50,370
Helen: I think-

316
00:13:50,980 --> 00:13:51,880
Ian: ...he said hopefully!

317
00:13:52,090 --> 00:13:53,170
Helen: I know you think about it.

318
00:13:53,615 --> 00:13:56,735
Is there a, some point, a sort of
tumble moment where they go, oh,

319
00:13:57,575 --> 00:14:00,790
this is what Elon Musk theory is that
he's pursuing, which is, he did a

320
00:14:00,790 --> 00:14:03,760
tweet, which he then deleted saying,
of course Trump hasn't released the

321
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:05,140
Epstein files... 'cause he's in them.

322
00:14:05,740 --> 00:14:08,920
And at some point does that nagging
seed of doubt grow and grow?

323
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,710
And at some point, I don't think, I think
this is the way around it would happen,

324
00:14:11,710 --> 00:14:14,860
I'm not sure it would happen, is that
Trump becomes unpopular for other reasons.

325
00:14:14,860 --> 00:14:18,220
Like the economy's bad and
at some point people turn and

326
00:14:18,220 --> 00:14:19,930
then this is a great excuse.

327
00:14:19,930 --> 00:14:22,150
An off ramp from being, 'thank you.

328
00:14:22,150 --> 00:14:24,610
But now we need to send you off
into the night.' This is, I think

329
00:14:24,610 --> 00:14:27,240
this is how people could end
up getting off the train... if

330
00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:28,740
they want to for other reasons.

331
00:14:28,814 --> 00:14:31,604
Adam: You can try and exploit them
for political means, but when the

332
00:14:31,604 --> 00:14:34,334
actual evidence doesn't turn out
to be there, that's your fault.

333
00:14:34,334 --> 00:14:35,594
And now your part of the conspiracy.

334
00:14:35,594 --> 00:14:38,384
And that's, I think, the real
danger to Trump now because it's

335
00:14:38,384 --> 00:14:39,614
not hard to tie him into it.

336
00:14:39,614 --> 00:14:41,564
He's on the flight logs, he's another.

337
00:14:41,948 --> 00:14:45,038
A Manhattan and Florida based
businessman who moved in the exact

338
00:14:45,038 --> 00:14:46,542
same social circles as Jeffrey Epstein.

339
00:14:46,692 --> 00:14:49,452
if you want to draw, a join,
join dots between them.

340
00:14:49,662 --> 00:14:51,637
it's one of the more easy
ones to do, isn't it?

341
00:14:51,757 --> 00:14:52,057
Helen: Yeah.

342
00:14:52,057 --> 00:14:55,692
And accused of multiple sexual offenses
against women and what some of which-

343
00:14:55,722 --> 00:14:58,932
Adam: ...ran the mis Teen USA pageant
for years and boasted about walking

344
00:14:58,932 --> 00:15:01,962
into dressing rooms when, when, the
girls were getting changed as well.

345
00:15:02,067 --> 00:15:02,317
Helen: Yes.

346
00:15:02,317 --> 00:15:04,837
There's not a, it's not a kind of...
'that would be so outta character,

347
00:15:04,837 --> 00:15:06,517
he is normally so monastic.' Yeah.

348
00:15:06,577 --> 00:15:08,827
I, and, but so I, think you're right Ian.

349
00:15:08,827 --> 00:15:09,787
I think it is a bit hope.

350
00:15:09,807 --> 00:15:13,617
Full to think that this will cause a
kind of sing between the MAGA Faithful

351
00:15:13,617 --> 00:15:17,037
and Trump because it is such a sort
of one man faith-based movement.

352
00:15:17,307 --> 00:15:19,617
But I wouldn't be surprised if it
comes round again in a couple of

353
00:15:19,617 --> 00:15:22,377
years when people are irritated
with him for other reasons.

354
00:15:22,827 --> 00:15:26,397
if the economy is flatlining, if
as it seems likely he has given a

355
00:15:26,397 --> 00:15:28,257
load of aid to Ukraine, for example.

356
00:15:28,497 --> 00:15:31,417
Even I think people on the MAGA
right are getting a bit pissed off

357
00:15:31,417 --> 00:15:34,987
with his overt support for Netanyahu
and everything that Netanyahu does.

358
00:15:35,287 --> 00:15:37,387
I think he himself is getting
pissed off with Netanyahu, hence

359
00:15:37,387 --> 00:15:38,707
his great quote the other day.

360
00:15:39,097 --> 00:15:42,127
But I can see this kind of, I can
see this one being a kind of case

361
00:15:42,127 --> 00:15:44,407
of be that just lingers around.

362
00:15:44,467 --> 00:15:49,747
Ian: And will it be a an excuse for
buyer's remorse in the way you'll say, I

363
00:15:49,747 --> 00:15:52,987
wasn't wrong to support
Trump, but then when this came

364
00:15:52,987 --> 00:15:55,927
out, ...I obviously knew
he was up to no good.

365
00:15:56,047 --> 00:15:57,607
Helen: He got captured
like everybody else.

366
00:15:57,757 --> 00:15:58,327
Yeah, that's what I mean.

367
00:15:58,327 --> 00:16:02,107
That's why I, if I had to place my money
now, but if Trump doesn't run again for a

368
00:16:02,107 --> 00:16:06,157
third term, and I think he will probably
try to in some way, maybe more or less.

369
00:16:07,687 --> 00:16:11,707
professionally then somebody like Tucker
Carlson does feel to me like the next

370
00:16:11,887 --> 00:16:13,897
evolution in that he is charismatic.

371
00:16:13,897 --> 00:16:16,807
He does say some things that
make sense, but he's also even

372
00:16:16,807 --> 00:16:18,817
further down the path of loon.

373
00:16:20,857 --> 00:16:24,097
Andy: My, question on these occasions
is always, can anything be done

374
00:16:24,097 --> 00:16:26,917
to, rescue the US media ecosystem?

375
00:16:26,917 --> 00:16:30,067
People trusting basic statements from
their governments, anything like that?

376
00:16:30,067 --> 00:16:31,807
Or are people just too far gone?

377
00:16:31,927 --> 00:16:34,447
Helen: Do you know, what really annoys me
about this saga is the fact I went back

378
00:16:34,447 --> 00:16:35,857
and read through all of the reporting.

379
00:16:35,902 --> 00:16:38,962
The New York Times was reporting the
original indictment of Epstein, right?

380
00:16:38,962 --> 00:16:42,742
It was this reporter, Julie Brown at Miami
Herald who really got the case reopened

381
00:16:43,162 --> 00:16:46,056
If Epstein a bit like grooming gangs
is a testament to anything, it's a

382
00:16:46,056 --> 00:16:50,136
testament to a few dogged journalists
keeping on at very unfashionable.

383
00:16:50,246 --> 00:16:54,206
Disgusting, horrible stories,
in the face of huge amounts

384
00:16:54,206 --> 00:16:55,856
of legal threats and pressure.

385
00:16:57,146 --> 00:17:00,626
and of course the MAGA influences
nonetheless, not, just not

386
00:17:00,656 --> 00:17:02,276
taking any notice of that at all.

387
00:17:02,281 --> 00:17:03,371
She was anything-

388
00:17:03,371 --> 00:17:04,331
She's not now a maga hero.

389
00:17:04,436 --> 00:17:07,526
In fact, the year that she was,
that Epstein was arrested the

390
00:17:07,526 --> 00:17:10,586
first time and did his deal, she
had to take a 15% pay cut 'cause

391
00:17:10,586 --> 00:17:13,136
her, her newsroom was downsizing.

392
00:17:13,616 --> 00:17:15,892
She's now sold this as a documentary
idea, which means she's been

393
00:17:15,892 --> 00:17:18,562
able to buy a house for the first
time at the, in her late fifties.

394
00:17:19,657 --> 00:17:20,002
be pleased about

395
00:17:20,002 --> 00:17:20,683
that, but

396
00:17:22,966 --> 00:17:25,336
Andy: Right now we come to part
two of this week's podcast.

397
00:17:25,996 --> 00:17:31,216
Helen has regenerated as Jane
Mackenzie and she'll be, regen, Jane

398
00:17:31,216 --> 00:17:34,036
will be regenerating back into Helen
for the final part of today's show.

399
00:17:34,126 --> 00:17:35,326
There's a detailed plan behind it all.

400
00:17:35,326 --> 00:17:36,046
It's all working out.

401
00:17:36,706 --> 00:17:39,346
but before that, just before
we come to Jane, there is a

402
00:17:39,346 --> 00:17:40,996
little victory for the eye.

403
00:17:41,086 --> 00:17:41,956
We have to announce.

404
00:17:41,956 --> 00:17:43,126
This is hugely exciting.

405
00:17:44,116 --> 00:17:46,276
I'm just gonna read a line to you and
then I'm gonna tell you who said it.

406
00:17:47,131 --> 00:17:49,291
"You shouldn't need a driveway
to own an electric car.

407
00:17:49,801 --> 00:17:53,161
"My plan for change is boosting funding
for infrastructure to allow cables to

408
00:17:53,161 --> 00:17:56,701
run safely beneath pavements that's
cheaper at home charging, putting money

409
00:17:56,701 --> 00:17:58,891
back in the pockets of working people".

410
00:17:59,011 --> 00:17:59,881
Not my words.

411
00:18:00,241 --> 00:18:03,421
Those of the Prime Minister Keir
Starmer: the gully campaign has

412
00:18:03,421 --> 00:18:06,151
worked; they've announced funding
for cross pavement charging,

413
00:18:06,496 --> 00:18:07,846
Adam: Hey, Well done.

414
00:18:07,846 --> 00:18:08,806
Congratulations.

415
00:18:11,461 --> 00:18:11,731
Andy: Right.

416
00:18:11,731 --> 00:18:14,951
Brief, cheerful interlude over
now we come to more gloom.

417
00:18:15,221 --> 00:18:15,731
Jane, what is,

418
00:18:16,171 --> 00:18:16,891
Adam: it's another victory.

419
00:18:16,891 --> 00:18:17,461
for the eye.

420
00:18:17,501 --> 00:18:17,831
Andy: Yeah.

421
00:18:17,836 --> 00:18:18,086
Quite

422
00:18:18,241 --> 00:18:19,561
Adam: Jane's taken out a bishop.

423
00:18:20,161 --> 00:18:20,281
Jane: i,

424
00:18:20,371 --> 00:18:20,641
Adam: think

425
00:18:20,651 --> 00:18:24,071
Andy: this to Jane as, how
to, get a bishop defrocked

426
00:18:24,071 --> 00:18:25,121
or whatever the process is.

427
00:18:25,511 --> 00:18:28,601
but you, are denying all
knowledge and all responsibility,

428
00:18:28,696 --> 00:18:29,806
Jane: as I understand.

429
00:18:29,986 --> 00:18:32,396
by the time the Eye hit the shops.

430
00:18:32,756 --> 00:18:37,766
The, trustees of the Church of Wales
had already put wheels in motion to,

431
00:18:38,366 --> 00:18:43,596
announce they had no confidence in
the bishop, he was already on the way

432
00:18:45,246 --> 00:18:48,396
Andy: we're dealing with a,
story about the Church in Wales.

433
00:18:48,726 --> 00:18:50,316
And that's not the Church of Wales.

434
00:18:50,346 --> 00:18:51,246
We'll get into that.

435
00:18:51,246 --> 00:18:55,236
But this is, about the Archbishop
of Wales, Andrew John, who also

436
00:18:55,356 --> 00:18:59,136
doubled as the bishop for Bangal,
who has taken early retirement.

437
00:18:59,586 --> 00:19:01,436
He has defrocked himself.

438
00:19:01,436 --> 00:19:07,436
Jane: So what, we first heard about
was in particular the sort of financial

439
00:19:07,436 --> 00:19:12,391
allegations, although, these were also
cathedral staff were going on lovely

440
00:19:12,391 --> 00:19:18,661
foreign jollies, quite expensively, using
money that wasn't even the cathedrals.

441
00:19:18,721 --> 00:19:25,711
So they were making use of diocese funds
to take cathedral staff on lovely jollies.

442
00:19:25,711 --> 00:19:28,921
They also spent an
enormous amount of money.

443
00:19:29,221 --> 00:19:32,231
On designer furniture for the cathedral

444
00:19:32,271 --> 00:19:33,201
Adam: designer pews.

445
00:19:33,791 --> 00:19:34,421
Jane: Correct.

446
00:19:35,621 --> 00:19:40,661
And, I think like designer,
lecterns and altars.

447
00:19:41,021 --> 00:19:46,221
and... but yes, they, got some
very beautiful stackable pews.

448
00:19:46,851 --> 00:19:49,971
They did have very
beautiful pews... before.

449
00:19:50,651 --> 00:19:50,941
Ian: Yeah.

450
00:19:52,131 --> 00:19:54,621
Adam: This is where Jane also comes in
as the Nooks and Corners correspondent.

451
00:19:55,736 --> 00:19:57,941
Ian: But you are... when you
say a large amount of money.

452
00:19:58,671 --> 00:19:59,811
Jane: as a £400,000

453
00:20:00,201 --> 00:20:00,351
Adam: Yes.

454
00:20:00,681 --> 00:20:03,831
Ian: that's, when as editor
I thought, this is a church.

455
00:20:03,831 --> 00:20:05,811
They don't have 400,000 pounds.

456
00:20:05,901 --> 00:20:07,281
How are they spending this on pews?

457
00:20:07,731 --> 00:20:12,771
Jane: And, the people of Bangor
have some other needs rather than

458
00:20:13,262 --> 00:20:15,035
some brand new uncomfortable seats.

459
00:20:16,685 --> 00:20:19,745
there are issues of poverty
in the area that maybe the

460
00:20:19,745 --> 00:20:21,035
Church could be helping with.

461
00:20:21,655 --> 00:20:24,605
Andy: So it was, it was 20,000
pounds on, the foreign jollies,

462
00:20:24,605 --> 00:20:25,895
the trips to Rome and Dublin.

463
00:20:26,330 --> 00:20:28,970
Feel like more Catholic destinations
than church in Wales anyway.

464
00:20:29,090 --> 00:20:30,770
400,000 pounds on designer pews.

465
00:20:30,830 --> 00:20:32,180
You said this was diocese money.

466
00:20:32,180 --> 00:20:32,810
What does that mean?

467
00:20:32,810 --> 00:20:33,650
Where does that come from?

468
00:20:33,935 --> 00:20:37,985
Jane: So these bodies
are separate charities.

469
00:20:38,285 --> 00:20:43,860
The Diocese is responsible for
things, across the whole area.

470
00:20:43,860 --> 00:20:48,350
So all the parish churches, any
Church schools, anything like that

471
00:20:48,890 --> 00:20:49,730
is the diocese.

472
00:20:49,730 --> 00:20:57,445
The Cathedral, and its own specific
employees: separate fund, separate Money.

473
00:20:57,715 --> 00:21:00,955
Andy: But this was diocese money being
spent on cathedral stuff on staff.

474
00:21:01,015 --> 00:21:02,990
And that's money that's been
donated by members of the public

475
00:21:03,385 --> 00:21:04,435
Jane: Effectively, yes.

476
00:21:04,495 --> 00:21:08,485
And the long term money
that the church has for the

477
00:21:08,485 --> 00:21:11,781
ways in which it owns
things, but it's yes.

478
00:21:12,505 --> 00:21:12,985
Andy: Okay.

479
00:21:14,125 --> 00:21:17,095
so they were already spending
like drunken sailors basically.

480
00:21:18,115 --> 00:21:22,555
Jane: In fact, one of the other financial
issues that came out during the process

481
00:21:22,555 --> 00:21:26,665
of looking into all of this when the,
Church sent people to have a look at

482
00:21:26,665 --> 00:21:32,095
their accounts was the uncontrolled
spending on 'refreshments after services.'

483
00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:34,480
Adam: Ah, we're not talking tea, coffee...

484
00:21:35,165 --> 00:21:35,645
Jane: we are not.

485
00:21:36,425 --> 00:21:36,935
There was....

486
00:21:36,935 --> 00:21:37,160
Ian: Or.

487
00:21:37,210 --> 00:21:38,340
Or a glass of sherry?

488
00:21:38,930 --> 00:21:41,305
Jane: No, it was
considerably more than that.

489
00:21:41,933 --> 00:21:46,273
As a sort of later emerged, and
this was... the cathedral priests,

490
00:21:46,303 --> 00:21:50,123
the the adult members of the
choir were coing considerably

491
00:21:50,123 --> 00:21:53,333
after, services and performances.

492
00:21:53,342 --> 00:21:56,342
Andy: And that brings us on... the thing
I really wanted to ask you about, Jane,

493
00:21:56,342 --> 00:21:58,952
was the cathedral October Fest event.

494
00:21:59,432 --> 00:22:02,012
Can you just run past
us how that came to be?

495
00:22:02,907 --> 00:22:05,337
Jane: So I believe this was in 2022.

496
00:22:05,787 --> 00:22:10,917
they decided to, bring back the
tradition that the Church blesses

497
00:22:10,917 --> 00:22:13,167
the beer for the Harvest Festival.

498
00:22:13,167 --> 00:22:13,257
and

499
00:22:14,257 --> 00:22:14,347
Andy: Okay.

500
00:22:14,637 --> 00:22:14,917
Therefore.

501
00:22:14,917 --> 00:22:15,657
I see where this is going.

502
00:22:15,957 --> 00:22:16,157
Okay.

503
00:22:17,772 --> 00:22:23,472
Jane: Had a, a very drink focused
event, focused around the cathedral.

504
00:22:23,532 --> 00:22:26,142
So a lot of cathedral people
were involved in that.

505
00:22:26,412 --> 00:22:26,502
that.

506
00:22:26,502 --> 00:22:29,802
Ian: I suppose the idea was that it
would get involved with the community

507
00:22:29,892 --> 00:22:36,042
and be part of it and try and... like
a pet service or whatever, but this

508
00:22:36,042 --> 00:22:38,767
turned into a... a drinking culture.

509
00:22:38,967 --> 00:22:39,807
Jane: Absolutely.

510
00:22:39,937 --> 00:22:43,087
Ian: I was slightly shocked when I
was reading the details to see that

511
00:22:43,447 --> 00:22:45,667
they were on, was it Good Friday?

512
00:22:46,487 --> 00:22:49,817
Celebrating by having the
seven last shots of Christ.

513
00:22:50,417 --> 00:22:52,322
Which is... after every-

514
00:22:52,612 --> 00:22:54,562
Adam: Which gospel's that from, is John?

515
00:22:55,152 --> 00:22:58,669
Ian: As a, layman, that
strikes me as quite extreme.

516
00:22:58,699 --> 00:22:58,909
Yeah.

517
00:22:59,089 --> 00:23:05,436
there was a tradition bishops rather
Mervin Stockwood, who was a rather famous

518
00:23:05,436 --> 00:23:09,546
Bishop who used to celebrate some of
the religious festivals with champagne,

519
00:23:09,546 --> 00:23:13,596
saying, if it's good enough, for everyone
else, it's good enough for our Lord.

520
00:23:13,596 --> 00:23:18,756
And there was a sort of, there was a
rye observance to the slight excess.

521
00:23:19,656 --> 00:23:23,166
but then this one was just
straightforward... just boozing.

522
00:23:23,541 --> 00:23:25,191
Andy: Who was in, who
was controlling this?

523
00:23:25,281 --> 00:23:26,781
Oh, it sounds like nobody who should have

524
00:23:26,811 --> 00:23:27,081
Jane: who should it be?

525
00:23:27,471 --> 00:23:27,472
so.

526
00:23:28,041 --> 00:23:33,640
Because, the Bishop of Banga is
also serving as the Bishop of Wales.

527
00:23:34,198 --> 00:23:40,009
the manage day-to-day management of the
cathedral is passed on to, sub deanan.

528
00:23:40,649 --> 00:23:46,219
The sub dean, was suspended last
year and spent much of 2024 on,

529
00:23:46,219 --> 00:23:48,199
garden leave and has, since left.

530
00:23:49,142 --> 00:23:53,552
While all this was gradually, little
bit by little bit trickling out in

531
00:23:53,552 --> 00:23:57,087
terms of, they had an inspection for
their financial issues and they had an

532
00:23:57,087 --> 00:24:00,147
inspection for their, safeguarding issues.

533
00:24:00,147 --> 00:24:00,627
So

534
00:24:00,687 --> 00:24:04,887
it, it became clear that he was the, head

535
00:24:04,887 --> 00:24:06,987
man during all of this process.

536
00:24:07,737 --> 00:24:09,215
But the real had.

537
00:24:09,346 --> 00:24:11,176
it's still the archbishop,

538
00:24:11,226 --> 00:24:12,681
he's still The top map.

539
00:24:13,461 --> 00:24:16,499
Andy: And one of the things that
you've found out since this story

540
00:24:16,499 --> 00:24:19,679
started, as it were, is that it has
led to allegations of sexual assault

541
00:24:19,739 --> 00:24:19,919
Jane: Yes.

542
00:24:20,159 --> 00:24:21,839
And that they had been reported

543
00:24:21,839 --> 00:24:22,439
and

544
00:24:22,709 --> 00:24:23,939
dealt with internally,

545
00:24:24,116 --> 00:24:25,042
Andy: So the

546
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,120
Ian: archbishop at Bishop

547
00:24:27,663 --> 00:24:28,113
Has gone,

548
00:24:28,147 --> 00:24:28,366
Jane: yes.

549
00:24:28,671 --> 00:24:34,141
He wa he has, taken retirement,
unexpectedly soon earlier than planned.

550
00:24:34,232 --> 00:24:35,113
just as

551
00:24:35,173 --> 00:24:39,553
the trustees of the Church of
Wales were setting out their

552
00:24:40,153 --> 00:24:43,020
lack of confidence in
the church leadership,

553
00:24:43,105 --> 00:24:44,515
Ian: is it like the Church of England?

554
00:24:44,515 --> 00:24:46,345
Do we just have

555
00:24:46,645 --> 00:24:47,665
no one in charge for a

556
00:24:47,665 --> 00:24:49,015
Andy: while and see what happens?

557
00:24:49,015 --> 00:24:51,385
This is like the time when Belgium
had no government for about two

558
00:24:51,385 --> 00:24:54,822
years and it turned out everything
just kept going and it was fine.

559
00:24:54,845 --> 00:24:55,145
Jane: Yes.

560
00:24:55,145 --> 00:24:59,520
I think there'll be, a bishops
election proceedings, but it's,

561
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,080
very hard to recruit bishops.

562
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:01,290
These,

563
00:25:01,290 --> 00:25:01,830
days.

564
00:25:01,950 --> 00:25:02,340
There's,

565
00:25:02,423 --> 00:25:07,133
it's quite difficult to find people
willing to do the job, willing to have

566
00:25:07,133 --> 00:25:10,763
their own safeguarding records raked over.

567
00:25:10,778 --> 00:25:13,213
Adam: Where are we at with recruiting
another Archbishop Canterbury?

568
00:25:13,268 --> 00:25:13,658
'cause it's

569
00:25:13,658 --> 00:25:16,118
a long time since the last one
stepped down now, isn't it?

570
00:25:16,673 --> 00:25:16,973
Jane: yes.

571
00:25:16,973 --> 00:25:19,643
It's a much longer process
than selecting a new pope.

572
00:25:19,673 --> 00:25:20,273
That's for sure.

573
00:25:20,898 --> 00:25:26,093
That's a, crown Commission
has been formed.

574
00:25:26,213 --> 00:25:28,283
Even that was quite difficult.

575
00:25:28,283 --> 00:25:30,173
People on it kept having to step down.

576
00:25:30,508 --> 00:25:33,152
so it has to represent
the Canterbury Diocese

577
00:25:33,422 --> 00:25:33,632
has

578
00:25:33,632 --> 00:25:34,292
to represent.

579
00:25:34,712 --> 00:25:39,877
The Church of England, it has to represent
the wider Anglican communion and.

580
00:25:40,073 --> 00:25:44,209
in each case, finding people
who could, fill all those roles

581
00:25:44,269 --> 00:25:45,979
has been quite complicated.

582
00:25:46,550 --> 00:25:53,097
it's also trying to find a commission
that will be able to come up with

583
00:25:53,427 --> 00:25:53,757
a

584
00:25:53,757 --> 00:25:58,017
candidate that fits the
whole Anglican communion.

585
00:25:58,677 --> 00:25:59,427
for instance.

586
00:25:59,713 --> 00:26:03,667
one of the representatives of the
wider world, the person representing

587
00:26:03,667 --> 00:26:06,487
Africa is a Ghanaian woman.

588
00:26:07,035 --> 00:26:10,485
she, she's therefore got to represent
a number of countries in Africa that

589
00:26:10,575 --> 00:26:14,445
she has ordained, but that wouldn't
ordain her, and that certainly

590
00:26:14,445 --> 00:26:16,185
wouldn't consecrate a woman bishop.

591
00:26:16,545 --> 00:26:17,985
So if they were to choose

592
00:26:18,435 --> 00:26:18,585
a

593
00:26:18,585 --> 00:26:19,965
woman, Archbishop.

594
00:26:20,475 --> 00:26:22,665
she's put in quite an
interesting position.

595
00:26:22,964 --> 00:26:24,284
Adam: is there a timetable for it though?

596
00:26:24,464 --> 00:26:24,854
do they have

597
00:26:24,854 --> 00:26:25,364
a deadline?

598
00:26:25,543 --> 00:26:28,213
Jane: several months late in even
getting the commission together.

599
00:26:28,213 --> 00:26:31,003
So whatever deadlines were
set in the first place are,

600
00:26:31,213 --> 00:26:31,603
Adam: and this

601
00:26:31,603 --> 00:26:35,143
commission will eventually recommend
one candidate to dining Street.

602
00:26:35,143 --> 00:26:36,013
to the It's two, isn't

603
00:26:36,013 --> 00:26:36,133
Ian: it?

604
00:26:36,853 --> 00:26:38,983
And then they choose from
two, the Prime Minister.

605
00:26:39,508 --> 00:26:39,628
Adam: I

606
00:26:39,628 --> 00:26:41,338
think they've narrowed it down now to one.

607
00:26:41,338 --> 00:26:42,808
'cause the story always wasn't

608
00:26:42,808 --> 00:26:43,858
it when George Kerry was made?

609
00:26:43,858 --> 00:26:44,788
Archbishop Canterbury.

610
00:26:45,028 --> 00:26:45,358
that Mrs.

611
00:26:45,358 --> 00:26:47,278
Thatcher had been presented with
the, one that everyone in the

612
00:26:47,278 --> 00:26:49,468
church could agree on, and then
thought, oh, we've gotta do two.

613
00:26:50,218 --> 00:26:52,528
I had no hope with George Carey
and she picked him instead.

614
00:26:54,253 --> 00:26:59,293
Jane: it's quite high risk, especially
given how many different issues could

615
00:26:59,293 --> 00:27:01,993
schism the Entire Anglican church

616
00:27:02,854 --> 00:27:04,444
Ian: is that an active word now

617
00:27:05,224 --> 00:27:05,854
to schism?

618
00:27:06,479 --> 00:27:06,694
Jane: Well,

619
00:27:06,914 --> 00:27:09,724
Ian: Eye, readers have already
provided a set of alternatives

620
00:27:09,724 --> 00:27:11,074
starting with Russell Brand,

621
00:27:11,494 --> 00:27:12,994
going through Bear Grills.

622
00:27:13,414 --> 00:27:14,584
we are trying to help.

623
00:27:15,634 --> 00:27:17,919
and the fact that they're slow,
I would say, is not our fault.

624
00:27:18,268 --> 00:27:20,528
Andy: there have been so many
stories recently about bishops taking

625
00:27:20,528 --> 00:27:23,348
retirement or defrocking themselves
or being defrocked, all of this.

626
00:27:23,348 --> 00:27:28,328
What, why is it, is the church uniquely
bedeviled by these safeguarding issues?

627
00:27:28,328 --> 00:27:29,228
No, they can't be.

628
00:27:29,918 --> 00:27:32,468
you were, saying, Jane, there are
like, there are schools which exist

629
00:27:32,468 --> 00:27:35,258
and they have, they might have
potential problems, but they have

630
00:27:35,258 --> 00:27:36,728
processes in place to deal with it.

631
00:27:36,788 --> 00:27:38,348
What, what's missing here?

632
00:27:39,083 --> 00:27:42,893
Jane: the, church has been spectacularly
slow to grapple with the fact that

633
00:27:42,893 --> 00:27:45,713
it needs to deal with safeguarding.

634
00:27:45,778 --> 00:27:50,587
that it has, long been
a place where there are

635
00:27:50,587 --> 00:27:55,372
num a lot of vulnerable people who are
receiving help from the church, but

636
00:27:55,372 --> 00:27:56,137
are therefore

637
00:27:56,527 --> 00:27:58,627
in close contact with

638
00:27:58,812 --> 00:27:59,352
people

639
00:27:59,352 --> 00:28:00,305
who have.

640
00:28:00,523 --> 00:28:02,468
Their own, interests,

641
00:28:02,558 --> 00:28:04,088
Andy: people who might
turn out to be abusers

642
00:28:04,238 --> 00:28:04,448
Jane: basically.

643
00:28:04,448 --> 00:28:05,588
Absolutely, yes.

644
00:28:05,588 --> 00:28:05,948
Yeah.

645
00:28:06,492 --> 00:28:07,062
there are

646
00:28:07,332 --> 00:28:12,555
plenty of other areas of life that,
I don't know, society that have

647
00:28:12,555 --> 00:28:16,245
managed to get on top of this earlier.

648
00:28:16,755 --> 00:28:17,445
sports,

649
00:28:17,475 --> 00:28:18,465
for instance,

650
00:28:18,848 --> 00:28:20,969
terrible culture of abuse in sports

651
00:28:20,969 --> 00:28:21,629
coaching

652
00:28:21,629 --> 00:28:21,959
for.

653
00:28:22,183 --> 00:28:23,814
Decades, but the

654
00:28:23,814 --> 00:28:26,784
amount of training for
safeguarding they now put in

655
00:28:27,654 --> 00:28:28,644
is, enormous.

656
00:28:28,689 --> 00:28:31,299
Ian: And that was across the board
that was gymnastics for girls

657
00:28:31,299 --> 00:28:33,039
and football, very heavily for

658
00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:33,519
boys.

659
00:28:33,819 --> 00:28:33,939
Andy: And

660
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,029
one of the, allegations that's been
made is people being incredibly

661
00:28:37,029 --> 00:28:39,969
inappropriate in front of young members
of the choir in Bangal Cathedral.

662
00:28:40,074 --> 00:28:40,344
Jane: Yeah.

663
00:28:40,823 --> 00:28:44,406
choir has, Little foresters
as well as adult foresters.

664
00:28:44,406 --> 00:28:49,686
And they would be around at the end
of services when everybody was heading

665
00:28:49,691 --> 00:28:49,861
off

666
00:28:50,046 --> 00:28:50,661
the drunk doing

667
00:28:50,826 --> 00:28:51,366
drunk.

668
00:28:51,876 --> 00:28:52,236
Yes.

669
00:28:52,236 --> 00:28:54,456
Making it appropriate and lewd comments.

670
00:28:54,696 --> 00:28:54,936
Andy: good

671
00:28:54,936 --> 00:28:55,266
Lord.

672
00:28:55,356 --> 00:28:57,216
So is it developing story or,

673
00:28:57,936 --> 00:29:00,156
it sounds like it'll be developing for
the next few hundred years at this, right?

674
00:29:01,911 --> 00:29:02,421
Jane: Yes.

675
00:29:02,753 --> 00:29:04,733
Ian: Can I just add an apology here?

676
00:29:05,123 --> 00:29:10,531
The, story that, Jane ran, I
inadvertently, illustrated with

677
00:29:10,531 --> 00:29:15,481
the Church of England logo leading
to our readers accusing me of

678
00:29:15,481 --> 00:29:17,056
being a Disestablishment aist.

679
00:29:17,222 --> 00:29:17,356
Adam: this,

680
00:29:18,391 --> 00:29:18,481
Ian: Which?

681
00:29:19,086 --> 00:29:20,821
okay, I am not I,

682
00:29:21,571 --> 00:29:25,201
that the church in Wales
is a disestablished church.

683
00:29:25,531 --> 00:29:29,881
It is part of the Anglican
communion, but it is not.

684
00:29:30,091 --> 00:29:30,901
The church religion.

685
00:29:31,111 --> 00:29:32,491
could I apologize,

686
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:33,010
Andy: I think

687
00:29:33,084 --> 00:29:33,160
Adam: we

688
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:33,250
were

689
00:29:33,250 --> 00:29:33,430
all

690
00:29:33,430 --> 00:29:33,640
waiting

691
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:33,700
for

692
00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:33,880
you

693
00:29:33,885 --> 00:29:33,955
to

694
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:34,090
say

695
00:29:34,090 --> 00:29:34,180
that

696
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:34,480
Andy: here.

697
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:34,690
So

698
00:29:35,695 --> 00:29:35,915
Adam: Is

699
00:29:35,950 --> 00:29:37,060
that the first example of anti

700
00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:38,950
humanitarianism on the podcast?

701
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:41,410
I think it's on a double word

702
00:29:41,410 --> 00:29:43,060
score as well, so we can Do really well.

703
00:29:46,413 --> 00:29:48,723
Andy: For the final section
of this week's episode, we are

704
00:29:48,723 --> 00:29:50,763
going to have a summer quiz.

705
00:29:51,663 --> 00:29:52,443
Yeah,

706
00:29:52,543 --> 00:29:57,283
So one of the chief stories, that's been,
across the British press, certainly in

707
00:29:57,283 --> 00:29:59,653
the last fortnight, is that of the salt

708
00:29:59,688 --> 00:29:59,978
path.

709
00:30:00,913 --> 00:30:05,923
This is the memoir, or is it,
by Rena Wynn, about the journey

710
00:30:05,923 --> 00:30:08,847
that her and her husband took,
across a sort of coastal path.

711
00:30:08,847 --> 00:30:11,097
And it's about losing your home.

712
00:30:11,097 --> 00:30:13,347
It's about, terrible illness.

713
00:30:13,347 --> 00:30:16,917
But there have been a number of
claims made in The Observer that, the

714
00:30:16,917 --> 00:30:20,735
couple lost their home due basically
indirectly to financial fraud And

715
00:30:20,735 --> 00:30:24,035
there have even been question marks
raised over the, diagnosis that, the,

716
00:30:24,035 --> 00:30:26,435
hus that Erwin's husband, received.

717
00:30:27,815 --> 00:30:32,375
I should say the couple have vigorously
denied all this, and they've claimed it's

718
00:30:32,375 --> 00:30:34,145
grotesquely unfair and highly misleading.

719
00:30:34,355 --> 00:30:37,115
There have been follow-up stories in
The Observer, making further claims

720
00:30:37,115 --> 00:30:38,465
and bringing further evidence to light.

721
00:30:38,465 --> 00:30:38,735
So

722
00:30:39,143 --> 00:30:41,483
I'm sure there's plenty more to come
out on this one, but I thought it

723
00:30:41,483 --> 00:30:43,283
might be a jumping off point for

724
00:30:43,793 --> 00:30:43,883
a

725
00:30:43,883 --> 00:30:44,333
quiz.

726
00:30:46,823 --> 00:30:47,093
not

727
00:30:47,093 --> 00:30:47,333
about

728
00:30:47,333 --> 00:30:47,423
the

729
00:30:47,423 --> 00:30:52,253
salt path itself, but about other times
that memoirs have been revealed to,

730
00:30:53,453 --> 00:30:58,853
maybe not be 100% scrupulously accurate,
slash have been exposed as containing

731
00:30:58,853 --> 00:31:02,393
a few little fibs here and there.

732
00:31:03,578 --> 00:31:05,738
Helen: can I just say that I want
you to, I think we should all do it.

733
00:31:05,738 --> 00:31:08,258
You know how Timothy and her
husband is rebranded as Moth?

734
00:31:08,258 --> 00:31:08,303
Yeah.

735
00:31:09,038 --> 00:31:10,778
I think your rebrand,
you'd have to just be

736
00:31:12,338 --> 00:31:12,698
Andy: Yeah,

737
00:31:13,178 --> 00:31:13,508
Helen: Yeah.

738
00:31:13,718 --> 00:31:14,108
So I do.

739
00:31:14,258 --> 00:31:16,808
That's of all the details that I've
read about them, there are many

740
00:31:16,808 --> 00:31:18,248
insane details about the story.

741
00:31:18,248 --> 00:31:20,198
The idea of being a Timothy who becomes a

742
00:31:20,247 --> 00:31:21,788
Adam: moss, that was a thing
that irritating the most.

743
00:31:21,788 --> 00:31:24,098
They were Both called Walker,
and they didn't use that for

744
00:31:24,098 --> 00:31:24,998
their book about walking.

745
00:31:25,088 --> 00:31:25,478
Sorry,

746
00:31:25,943 --> 00:31:29,243
Andy: Let's kick off the quiz about
memoirs and the errors they may

747
00:31:29,243 --> 00:31:31,103
contain with everyone's favorite.

748
00:31:31,660 --> 00:31:34,180
the Sunday Times printed
the Hitler Diaries in 1983.

749
00:31:34,180 --> 00:31:34,270
Yes.

750
00:31:35,010 --> 00:31:35,460
I knew it.

751
00:31:35,490 --> 00:31:37,830
This would be a specialist subject
for you, and I just had a hunch.

752
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,100
but according to the German
newspapers, which bought them and

753
00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:45,120
printed them first before the Sunday
Times did, what was their origin?

754
00:31:45,270 --> 00:31:46,230
This is multiple choice.

755
00:31:46,230 --> 00:31:46,860
This quiz.

756
00:31:47,250 --> 00:31:50,760
Is it A) it was stashed with all
Hitler's things in a transport plane

757
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,310
in the final days of the war, which
then crashed near the Czech border.

758
00:31:53,910 --> 00:31:56,190
Is it B) Hitler had sent a copy.

759
00:31:56,470 --> 00:32:00,130
To his publisher within the last days
in the bunker, thinking that a tell

760
00:32:00,130 --> 00:32:01,660
all memoir might turn things round,

761
00:32:05,170 --> 00:32:05,620
or is it,

762
00:32:05,620 --> 00:32:09,190
C), it was stolen by Eva Braun
who kept it in a locked safety

763
00:32:09,190 --> 00:32:10,750
deposit box in Switzerland.

764
00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:12,610
Which of those was the
story that was given?

765
00:32:13,825 --> 00:32:15,625
Helen: Eva Braun also died in the bunker.

766
00:32:15,625 --> 00:32:15,790
She

767
00:32:15,940 --> 00:32:17,740
Andy: But had she sent it in advance?

768
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:18,160
Oh, okay.

769
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:18,400
So

770
00:32:18,775 --> 00:32:20,245
Helen: with the, I'm gonna
go with the crash plane.

771
00:32:20,250 --> 00:32:20,380
Okay.

772
00:32:20,385 --> 00:32:21,585
Adam: Yeah, it's the crashed plane.

773
00:32:21,940 --> 00:32:22,540
I know this one.

774
00:32:22,681 --> 00:32:22,960
Andy: Sorry.

775
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,130
It's the crash plane everyone.

776
00:32:24,130 --> 00:32:24,580
Crash plane.

777
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:26,410
That's one point for everybody there.

778
00:32:26,545 --> 00:32:27,175
Helen: that hit the thought.

779
00:32:27,175 --> 00:32:31,750
He might go on a rehab tour, maybe
go on Oprah, makes a moving Tiktoks.

780
00:32:31,915 --> 00:32:33,940
Ian: instead of calling
it Spare, it would be Hair

781
00:32:37,540 --> 00:32:37,870
Andy: Super.

782
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,215
And this is the interesting thing.

783
00:32:41,215 --> 00:32:42,880
This sort of comes back to what
you were saying earlier, Helen,

784
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,750
about there, there was conspiracy,
to keep Epstein outta prison.

785
00:32:46,750 --> 00:32:50,395
So there was a plane, it was shot
down: 10 planes had flown out of

786
00:32:50,395 --> 00:32:52,735
Berlin, with lots of stuff on board.

787
00:32:53,005 --> 00:32:55,975
By the time the assess and the local
police got there to lock down the

788
00:32:55,975 --> 00:32:58,765
site of the plane crash, lots of
things had gone missing already.

789
00:32:58,915 --> 00:32:59,035
Yeah.

790
00:32:59,035 --> 00:33:02,455
So it's one of those perfect
opportunities for someone to say, ah, yes,

791
00:33:02,540 --> 00:33:02,650
Adam: this-

792
00:33:02,950 --> 00:33:05,230
it was faked a guy who used to
churn out all of this stuff.

793
00:33:05,410 --> 00:33:07,540
he really didn't know his Nazi
history and knew how to make it

794
00:33:08,170 --> 00:33:09,775
seem authentic and convincing,

795
00:33:09,775 --> 00:33:11,755
Andy: ...we come to two the quiz.

796
00:33:12,025 --> 00:33:12,175
good.

797
00:33:12,175 --> 00:33:12,715
Excellent.

798
00:33:13,958 --> 00:33:17,468
So the Hitler diaries were printed
with, the right kind of ink.

799
00:33:17,558 --> 00:33:21,278
They were written in a period appropriate
notebook and in a heavy gothic script,

800
00:33:21,458 --> 00:33:22,898
which you wouldn't have put past Hitler.

801
00:33:23,918 --> 00:33:29,828
in fact, they were by east German forger,
Conrad Kja went to prison for, the fraud.

802
00:33:29,978 --> 00:33:31,568
What did he do after coming out?

803
00:33:32,108 --> 00:33:36,668
Was A, he apologized and set up a charity
helping repatriate stolen Nazi goods.

804
00:33:37,118 --> 00:33:37,808
Was it B?

805
00:33:37,838 --> 00:33:42,488
He got a job as a fact checker
at the New Yorker, or was it C?

806
00:33:42,608 --> 00:33:46,298
He set up an art gallery
selling fake paintings.

807
00:33:47,753 --> 00:33:48,033
Ian: It's C

808
00:33:48,098 --> 00:33:48,338
Helen: it's

809
00:33:48,638 --> 00:33:51,578
yeah, I felt it was CI like the idea
that he did it in an gothic script,

810
00:33:51,578 --> 00:33:54,278
though, like one of those sort
of beerkeller kind of menu fonts,

811
00:33:54,428 --> 00:33:56,153
Adam: would it take an
ages to write anything.

812
00:33:56,228 --> 00:33:56,408
Wouldn't.

813
00:33:57,573 --> 00:34:01,118
Ian: But the Sunday Times, yeah,
had employed as their fact checker.

814
00:34:02,078 --> 00:34:08,888
the very famous historian, Lord
Dacre, and who, It later transcribed.

815
00:34:08,888 --> 00:34:10,508
Couldn't actually read this script.

816
00:34:10,733 --> 00:34:11,963
Helen: it Dacre,

817
00:34:12,068 --> 00:34:14,153
Ian: Not Not Paul Dacre
which Trevor roper.

818
00:34:14,288 --> 00:34:18,338
Hugh Trevor He became Lord Dacre and
then he changed his mind at the last

819
00:34:18,338 --> 00:34:20,858
minute, said, I'm not sure these are real.

820
00:34:21,158 --> 00:34:23,048
And Rupert Murdoch said, fuck Dacre.

821
00:34:24,218 --> 00:34:27,698
and history largely because of
people like ourselves, thinks

822
00:34:27,698 --> 00:34:29,373
he was shouting at Paul Dacre,

823
00:34:31,448 --> 00:34:32,318
but actually.

824
00:34:32,613 --> 00:34:37,383
He was showing his regard for
truth and accuracy in the face of

825
00:34:37,383 --> 00:34:40,833
a deadline, which was about to make
the Sunday times a shed load of

826
00:34:40,833 --> 00:34:41,193
money,

827
00:34:41,283 --> 00:34:41,523
which

828
00:34:41,523 --> 00:34:42,033
it did.

829
00:34:42,663 --> 00:34:43,173
Gosh,

830
00:34:43,238 --> 00:34:44,388
Helen: I wonder if they regret it now.

831
00:34:44,388 --> 00:34:46,338
I wonder if they now think
that the credibility hit was

832
00:34:46,338 --> 00:34:46,578
kind

833
00:34:47,223 --> 00:34:47,673
Andy: interesting.

834
00:34:49,833 --> 00:34:53,583
just to, to polish off that question,
Kujo opened a gallery, Ingar, and he sold

835
00:34:53,583 --> 00:34:56,253
forgeries by people like Salvador Dali.

836
00:34:56,253 --> 00:34:57,602
And, And Hawaiian Miro.

837
00:34:57,932 --> 00:35:00,452
but they, he did put his name on
them, although he was later done for

838
00:35:00,452 --> 00:35:03,257
forging driving licenses and fined
last one on the Hitler Diaries.

839
00:35:03,287 --> 00:35:05,897
Why should the Sunday Times
have been particularly ready?

840
00:35:06,137 --> 00:35:08,027
And prepared to spot the hoax.

841
00:35:08,417 --> 00:35:11,387
Was it a, the editor of the
paper at the time was actually

842
00:35:11,387 --> 00:35:12,557
A) fluent German speaker.

843
00:35:13,037 --> 00:35:17,087
Was it B) The diaries were written
on the same kind of paper that the

844
00:35:17,087 --> 00:35:19,037
Sunday Times itself was printed on,

845
00:35:19,847 --> 00:35:23,747
or was it C) They had already fallen
for and purchased the Mussolini Diaries.

846
00:35:25,507 --> 00:35:26,672
Helen: Is that Andrew Neil was

847
00:35:26,672 --> 00:35:27,062
editor at

848
00:35:27,062 --> 00:35:27,122
the

849
00:35:27,152 --> 00:35:27,302
Adam: time?

850
00:35:27,332 --> 00:35:27,722
No,

851
00:35:27,722 --> 00:35:28,562
it was the one before him.

852
00:35:28,562 --> 00:35:30,242
It was Frank Giles.

853
00:35:30,242 --> 00:35:31,052
Frank Giles.

854
00:35:32,492 --> 00:35:34,022
Later, made emeritus editor.

855
00:35:34,742 --> 00:35:35,307
And Asked

856
00:35:35,327 --> 00:35:35,487
Helen: asked

857
00:35:35,492 --> 00:35:36,572
Adam: Rupert Murdoch, what does it mean?

858
00:35:36,902 --> 00:35:38,925
And he said, the e means you're out.

859
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,620
And emeritus means you deserved it.

860
00:35:41,385 --> 00:35:42,125
Helen: That's actually

861
00:35:42,155 --> 00:35:43,530
bang for from Rupert Murdoch

862
00:35:43,550 --> 00:35:45,315
Adam: Have We had Oh Yeah.

863
00:35:45,900 --> 00:35:46,260
written that in

864
00:35:46,445 --> 00:35:46,735
Helen: Yeah.

865
00:35:48,100 --> 00:35:54,495
Ian: It was an incredibly funny period,
to observe a, national newspaper just

866
00:35:54,775 --> 00:35:59,695
completely getting egg all over its
face in all sorts of avoidable ways.

867
00:35:59,905 --> 00:36:02,335
Robert Harris wrote a very
funny book about it afterwards.

868
00:36:02,685 --> 00:36:04,695
Andy: I did ask a question several
minutes ago and we'd have all

869
00:36:04,695 --> 00:36:06,915
been dancing around it first.

870
00:36:06,945 --> 00:36:08,145
You think Frank Charles spoke

871
00:36:08,335 --> 00:36:09,045
Adam: Charles Frank
Charles' wife was German.

872
00:36:09,355 --> 00:36:09,590
Okay.

873
00:36:09,610 --> 00:36:09,900
Andy: Okay.

874
00:36:10,395 --> 00:36:13,000
I'm afraid It's c. It's
the Mussolini diaries.

875
00:36:13,050 --> 00:36:17,340
In 1968 Thompson, the publisher, had
spent a hundred thousand pounds, a

876
00:36:17,340 --> 00:36:22,200
huge amount of money at the time on
30 volumes of Mussolini's Diaries,

877
00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:26,010
and they had reasoned partly that
there are 30 books of these things.

878
00:36:26,010 --> 00:36:27,090
They cannot be forged.

879
00:36:27,090 --> 00:36:30,630
In fact, that was a clever thing by the,
for just to write 30 volumes of diaries.

880
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:32,160
It was an Italian mother and daughter

881
00:36:33,780 --> 00:36:34,105
who had

882
00:36:34,535 --> 00:36:35,855
Just, conned them.

883
00:36:35,855 --> 00:36:39,035
And, the editor at the time, Harold
Evans, made clear that he had not

884
00:36:39,035 --> 00:36:42,215
known about Thompson buying those,
he was incredibly irritated at the

885
00:36:42,215 --> 00:36:43,565
suggestion that he had fallen for them.

886
00:36:44,705 --> 00:36:45,635
Ian: but, they didn't publish them?

887
00:36:45,815 --> 00:36:46,745
Andy: No, they did not.

888
00:36:46,745 --> 00:36:48,305
They did not see the light of day,

889
00:36:48,870 --> 00:36:51,330
Adam: But The actual, the Hitler
Diaries themselves are quite tedious.

890
00:36:51,330 --> 00:36:51,900
They're largely just

891
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,660
lists of appointments and
things because you forger

892
00:36:54,690 --> 00:36:57,900
by that point knew better than to put
anything too sensational in them because

893
00:36:57,900 --> 00:36:59,430
people would think, these must be fake.

894
00:36:59,430 --> 00:36:59,610
So

895
00:37:00,690 --> 00:37:02,910
Andy: We now move away from the
Hitler Diaries and we're going

896
00:37:02,910 --> 00:37:04,170
into other memoirs now, boo.

897
00:37:04,211 --> 00:37:04,260
Helen: Yeah.

898
00:37:06,330 --> 00:37:11,095
Andy: What was the biggest claim of
author Misha dca, who wrote a memoir

899
00:37:11,130 --> 00:37:14,880
about her time during the Second World
War, which turned out to be fabricated?

900
00:37:15,180 --> 00:37:20,430
So was the claim A) during North Africa,
she had been romantically involved

901
00:37:20,430 --> 00:37:22,230
with both Montgomery and Rommel.

902
00:37:22,950 --> 00:37:23,850
Was it B?

903
00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:29,430
She had invented the atomic weapon two
years before America did, or was it C?

904
00:37:29,730 --> 00:37:34,275
She had crossed europe on foot and been
raised by a wolf pack along the way.

905
00:37:34,329 --> 00:37:34,485
Helen: way.

906
00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:35,715
She was raised by wolves.

907
00:37:35,775 --> 00:37:39,255
I know this because I did a whole,
yeah, I did a whole piece that

908
00:37:39,255 --> 00:37:42,825
was about people who f like in
2020s peak social justice period.

909
00:37:42,825 --> 00:37:45,555
People who faked social
justice, outrageous.

910
00:37:45,795 --> 00:37:49,245
And I got me reading about all the
Holocaust fakers, and there's an

911
00:37:49,245 --> 00:37:52,755
incredible story of a guy who claimed
as a kid, he'd been in Auschwitz.

912
00:37:53,110 --> 00:37:56,020
Met up and made a, did a piano
concert in LA many years ago with

913
00:37:56,020 --> 00:37:58,600
another woman who claimed that
she'd also survived Auschwitz.

914
00:37:58,900 --> 00:38:00,700
And they, were both fraudulent.

915
00:38:01,030 --> 00:38:03,280
And I love to imagine the moment
where they had to be like, I know

916
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:04,660
I'm, it's like pie stakes poker.

917
00:38:04,660 --> 00:38:04,990
I know.

918
00:38:04,990 --> 00:38:05,500
I'm bluffing.

919
00:38:05,500 --> 00:38:06,100
Are you bluffing?

920
00:38:06,220 --> 00:38:08,320
Wasn't it terrible in Auschwitz?

921
00:38:08,530 --> 00:38:09,520
I, remember very well.

922
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:09,820
Yeah.

923
00:38:09,820 --> 00:38:12,915
And she'd also, it later turned out
at some point, claim that she was a

924
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:14,770
victim of the Satanic panic as well,

925
00:38:15,165 --> 00:38:18,585
Andy: not only was she at a school in
Brussels in 1943, she wasn't even Jewish.

926
00:38:19,448 --> 00:38:22,988
she had previously won $32
million from her publisher, due

927
00:38:22,988 --> 00:38:24,698
to a copyright claim or case.

928
00:38:24,698 --> 00:38:26,768
Anyway, she was then ordered
to pay all of that money back.

929
00:38:27,098 --> 00:38:27,158
wow.

930
00:38:27,443 --> 00:38:28,703
Helen: and the wolves,
did they get anything?

931
00:38:29,048 --> 00:38:29,528
they, nothing

932
00:38:29,528 --> 00:38:30,488
Andy: for the walls I'm afraid.

933
00:38:32,511 --> 00:38:35,601
Next up, one of the
biggest literary hoaxes.

934
00:38:36,156 --> 00:38:39,426
Of the 1950s was Tuesday Lobsang

935
00:38:39,456 --> 00:38:43,386
Ramper, supposedly a top
ranking Tibetan llama.

936
00:38:45,096 --> 00:38:47,616
who did Ramper turn out to be in the end?

937
00:38:47,916 --> 00:38:52,266
Was it A) housewife from Stoke who had a
lot of bingo debts she needed to pay off?

938
00:38:53,046 --> 00:38:56,256
Was it B) a surgical trust
manufacturer from Devon

939
00:38:56,886 --> 00:38:59,766
or was it C) A disgraced
a deacon from Ayreshire.

940
00:39:00,816 --> 00:39:01,866
Helen: I'm still going, Deacon.

941
00:39:01,866 --> 00:39:02,376
I dunno why.

942
00:39:02,376 --> 00:39:03,336
Something about the way that

943
00:39:03,336 --> 00:39:05,646
Adam: two are such Andrew
Hunter Murray comedy lines.

944
00:39:06,061 --> 00:39:06,876
Helen: that's the problem.

945
00:39:06,876 --> 00:39:08,196
You've made a rod your own back

946
00:39:08,331 --> 00:39:08,661
Ian: Ian.

947
00:39:09,831 --> 00:39:12,936
I would always, go for the
vicar in a, in a. In a mean way.

948
00:39:12,936 --> 00:39:12,966
Oh

949
00:39:13,476 --> 00:39:13,986
dear.

950
00:39:14,316 --> 00:39:16,956
Andy: It was the unemployed
surgical trust maker from Devon.

951
00:39:17,796 --> 00:39:17,886
Yes.

952
00:39:18,726 --> 00:39:19,956
Cyril Hoskins.

953
00:39:20,226 --> 00:39:20,346
Yeah.

954
00:39:20,406 --> 00:39:21,606
Born Cyril Hoskins.

955
00:39:22,206 --> 00:39:25,836
later Tuesday, Lobsang Ramper wrote
a, wrote an incredibly successful

956
00:39:25,836 --> 00:39:27,576
memoir about being a Tibetan lalla.

957
00:39:28,746 --> 00:39:29,856
it turned out he didn't speak Tibetan.

958
00:39:29,856 --> 00:39:30,996
He'd never owned a passport.

959
00:39:31,236 --> 00:39:33,996
He hadn't battled the Japanese
Air Force during the war.

960
00:39:34,236 --> 00:39:35,016
none of it was true.

961
00:39:35,286 --> 00:39:36,366
Absolutely none of it was true.

962
00:39:36,666 --> 00:39:40,121
He came up with the explanation
that he had been born in the body

963
00:39:40,121 --> 00:39:42,371
of Cyril Hoskins, truss maker.

964
00:39:42,921 --> 00:39:43,601
Truss maker.

965
00:39:44,201 --> 00:39:48,191
But while leaning over out of
a tree trying to photograph

966
00:39:48,191 --> 00:39:49,601
an owl, he'd had a fall.

967
00:39:49,601 --> 00:39:53,531
And at that point, the Soul of Tuesday,
Lobsang ramp had entered his body.

968
00:39:53,741 --> 00:39:57,371
Ian: And this is the reincarnation
theory, but just taken to

969
00:39:57,371 --> 00:39:59,321
have happened during a life.

970
00:39:59,321 --> 00:39:59,831
Absolutely.

971
00:39:59,961 --> 00:40:01,071
Helen: I absolutely respect that.

972
00:40:01,071 --> 00:40:04,101
Have you seen that story about the Dalai
Lama and the Chinese Communist Party want

973
00:40:04,101 --> 00:40:05,601
to control who he reincarnates house.

974
00:40:05,631 --> 00:40:05,961
Yeah.

975
00:40:05,961 --> 00:40:06,021
An

976
00:40:06,156 --> 00:40:06,216
Adam: Yeah.

977
00:40:06,216 --> 00:40:06,536
Incredible

978
00:40:06,801 --> 00:40:09,711
Helen: of a collision of
religion per central bureaucracy.

979
00:40:09,771 --> 00:40:10,431
Ian: Absolutely.

980
00:40:10,973 --> 00:40:15,323
Andy: ramper wrote 18 more books, in
his character as Tuesday Lobsang Ramper,

981
00:40:15,833 --> 00:40:18,113
before moving to Ireland, for tax reasons.

982
00:40:20,058 --> 00:40:20,423
I love

983
00:40:20,423 --> 00:40:20,723
Helen: that.

984
00:40:20,723 --> 00:40:23,273
I love that we be out to do a fraud
and then they're out as a fraud and

985
00:40:23,273 --> 00:40:26,423
they carry on doing it, and people
just decided it was spiritually true.

986
00:40:26,423 --> 00:40:26,693
Andy: Wow.

987
00:40:27,263 --> 00:40:27,533
Fascinating.

988
00:40:27,998 --> 00:40:30,968
And this is a little bonus question
I remember... but which of his

989
00:40:30,968 --> 00:40:34,938
pets did he claim had dictated
his book Living With The Llama?

990
00:40:35,478 --> 00:40:37,688
A) his frog B) his dog or C) his cat?

991
00:40:38,198 --> 00:40:39,238
Adam: I gonna say llama!

992
00:40:39,323 --> 00:40:41,763
Helen: I can't think you
put a llama in there?

993
00:40:42,698 --> 00:40:43,478
Andy: Who wrote this?

994
00:40:47,468 --> 00:40:47,768
Yep.

995
00:40:48,098 --> 00:40:52,208
One of them dictated the book, living
with the Llama to him, Cat, Ian's got it.

996
00:40:52,448 --> 00:40:52,778
Yeah.

997
00:40:52,778 --> 00:40:53,408
Point to Ian.

998
00:40:53,678 --> 00:40:54,398
It was Mrs. Fief-

999
00:40:54,398 --> 00:40:56,258
Ian: Cat people: we can spot each other.

1000
00:40:56,304 --> 00:40:56,423
Adam: Yeah.

1001
00:40:56,483 --> 00:40:57,113
Because they have nine

1002
00:40:57,128 --> 00:40:57,188
Yeah.

1003
00:40:57,188 --> 00:40:58,343
We have nine very incarnated.

1004
00:40:59,408 --> 00:40:59,618
Andy: It

1005
00:40:59,618 --> 00:40:59,768
was

1006
00:40:59,783 --> 00:41:00,038
Adam: Mrs.

1007
00:41:00,098 --> 00:41:01,988
Andy: Fifi Gray Whiskers who dictated the

1008
00:41:01,988 --> 00:41:02,108
book.

1009
00:41:02,108 --> 00:41:02,198
Was

1010
00:41:02,198 --> 00:41:03,188
that really the name?

1011
00:41:03,188 --> 00:41:03,398
That was

1012
00:41:03,398 --> 00:41:03,938
really the name.

1013
00:41:04,123 --> 00:41:05,558
Helen: She born Cyril Hoskins.

1014
00:41:07,238 --> 00:41:09,818
Andy: she dictated it to him in
Siamese Cat language and then he

1015
00:41:09,818 --> 00:41:12,368
translated it into, idiomatic English.

1016
00:41:13,448 --> 00:41:14,288
Helen: think we say Ty now.

1017
00:41:17,233 --> 00:41:19,513
Andy: other books included
accounts of his visit to Venus, the

1018
00:41:19,513 --> 00:41:23,773
hidden time capsule left by the
in Atlantis inhabitants and won

1019
00:41:23,773 --> 00:41:27,433
21 years after his death to an
underground realm under the Himalayas.

1020
00:41:27,463 --> 00:41:29,803
So is there something in it after all?

1021
00:41:30,703 --> 00:41:31,153
Next up?

1022
00:41:31,783 --> 00:41:34,723
Ian: It makes a lot of the MAGA
stuff look pity thin, doesn't it?

1023
00:41:35,354 --> 00:41:40,274
Andy: Naked came, the Stranger was
a 1969 hit, trashy full of sex and

1024
00:41:40,274 --> 00:41:43,154
supposedly written, by Penelope Ash.

1025
00:41:43,529 --> 00:41:47,369
It was all about the erotic adventures of
a radio host, but who was the real writer?

1026
00:41:47,489 --> 00:41:49,919
Was it A) 12 nuns from Wyoming?

1027
00:41:50,279 --> 00:41:52,889
Was it B) 24 writers from a US newspaper

1028
00:41:52,889 --> 00:41:55,679
or was it C) 200 students from Yale?

1029
00:41:55,679 --> 00:41:55,739
I.

1030
00:41:56,414 --> 00:41:59,894
Adam: I'm still stuck on erotic adventures
of a radio host She's of all the sexy

1031
00:41:59,909 --> 00:42:00,209
Helen: professions.

1032
00:42:01,364 --> 00:42:03,134
Andy: She, leaves the studio,
she does a lot of roving

1033
00:42:03,134 --> 00:42:04,034
reporting, as it were.

1034
00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:04,129
Yeah.

1035
00:42:04,129 --> 00:42:04,489
traffic.

1036
00:42:04,489 --> 00:42:04,490
Yeah.

1037
00:42:06,324 --> 00:42:06,444
Helen: I

1038
00:42:06,614 --> 00:42:06,944
Andy: There you go.

1039
00:42:06,944 --> 00:42:07,394
Nuns.

1040
00:42:07,469 --> 00:42:10,049
Helen: I've just got derailed by the
fact that didn't Alistair Campbell have

1041
00:42:10,049 --> 00:42:11,714
a career writing erotica at one point?

1042
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:11,849
Did he,

1043
00:42:12,479 --> 00:42:13,124
Adam: He did, yes.

1044
00:42:13,124 --> 00:42:14,744
He was the bag piping

1045
00:42:14,744 --> 00:42:15,584
buccaneer or

1046
00:42:15,584 --> 00:42:15,944
something.

1047
00:42:16,394 --> 00:42:17,084
All about his

1048
00:42:17,084 --> 00:42:20,174
adventures with his bagpipes
on the, on, the, coat Azure.

1049
00:42:20,404 --> 00:42:20,674
Gosh,

1050
00:42:20,704 --> 00:42:21,664
Ian: The Rest is Filth!

1051
00:42:23,289 --> 00:42:24,784
This this I'd like to hear.

1052
00:42:26,710 --> 00:42:29,124
Helen: I'm I say 200 students,
but only because I'm, my

1053
00:42:29,124 --> 00:42:30,194
mind is on Alistair Campbell

1054
00:42:30,264 --> 00:42:30,954
Andy: description.

1055
00:42:30,954 --> 00:42:30,955
Okay.

1056
00:42:31,109 --> 00:42:33,659
Anymore for, anymore the others
were the nuns or the reporters?

1057
00:42:34,709 --> 00:42:35,399
nuns.

1058
00:42:35,549 --> 00:42:35,999
Okay.

1059
00:42:35,999 --> 00:42:36,599
Reporters

1060
00:42:36,689 --> 00:42:37,349
at a point for

1061
00:42:37,349 --> 00:42:37,649
Adam.

1062
00:42:37,649 --> 00:42:42,389
It simply by default, so 25
journalists, they were led by

1063
00:42:42,389 --> 00:42:43,559
a hack called Mike McGrady.

1064
00:42:44,009 --> 00:42:47,009
Mike McGrady was very irritated about
the state of American literary culture.

1065
00:42:47,009 --> 00:42:49,079
He basically thought, oh, you
can sell anything as long as

1066
00:42:49,079 --> 00:42:50,069
it's got enough sex in it.

1067
00:42:50,279 --> 00:42:51,689
He set out to prove the point.

1068
00:42:51,929 --> 00:42:53,729
Put together a collective of writers.

1069
00:42:54,344 --> 00:42:56,894
some of the chapters had to be
reedited because the originals

1070
00:42:56,894 --> 00:43:01,604
were too well written and it sold
hundreds of thousands of copies.

1071
00:43:01,604 --> 00:43:02,444
Is the depressing

1072
00:43:02,804 --> 00:43:03,224
fact.

1073
00:43:04,159 --> 00:43:08,689
next up I, Libertine was a raunchy
memoir by the Pseudonymous Frederick r

1074
00:43:08,689 --> 00:43:09,139
Ewing.

1075
00:43:09,709 --> 00:43:12,619
The book was banned in Boston,
but requested by multiple

1076
00:43:12,619 --> 00:43:13,999
bookshops across the USA.

1077
00:43:14,209 --> 00:43:18,619
What was especially impressive about
this hoax was A) the book's editor was

1078
00:43:18,619 --> 00:43:21,439
unwittingly defrauded by his own wife.

1079
00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:24,949
Was it B) there was no such book at all.

1080
00:43:24,949 --> 00:43:25,819
It didn't exist

1081
00:43:25,969 --> 00:43:28,399
or was it C) the entire
book was a palindrome.

1082
00:43:28,762 --> 00:43:29,812
Helen: I'm going palindrome.

1083
00:43:30,142 --> 00:43:30,472
It's just

1084
00:43:30,577 --> 00:43:31,087
Adam: a lot of

1085
00:43:31,207 --> 00:43:32,197
Andy: was the title as well

1086
00:43:33,032 --> 00:43:33,382
isn't

1087
00:43:33,382 --> 00:43:33,422
it?

1088
00:43:33,457 --> 00:43:34,327
Adam: You've gotta write the whole thing

1089
00:43:34,327 --> 00:43:34,747
backwards

1090
00:43:34,747 --> 00:43:35,017
and forth.

1091
00:43:35,017 --> 00:43:35,137
My.

1092
00:43:35,407 --> 00:43:35,947
Andy: Libertine.

1093
00:43:36,427 --> 00:43:36,877
Oh, Yeah.

1094
00:43:37,237 --> 00:43:38,017
Adam: the title isn't,

1095
00:43:38,857 --> 00:43:40,507
Andy: no, but the whole
book start to finish.

1096
00:43:41,107 --> 00:43:41,287
Adam: Yes.

1097
00:43:41,287 --> 00:43:42,997
But then the last words would have to be,

1098
00:43:44,047 --> 00:43:44,407
wouldn't they?

1099
00:43:45,607 --> 00:43:47,302
Andy: maybe don't pick that option.

1100
00:43:47,377 --> 00:43:47,887
Then Helen's,

1101
00:43:48,047 --> 00:43:48,792
Adam: Not the palindrome, yeah.

1102
00:43:49,062 --> 00:43:49,352
Helen: Yeah.

1103
00:43:49,352 --> 00:43:49,552
Okay.

1104
00:43:49,572 --> 00:43:50,192
You make a point.

1105
00:43:50,232 --> 00:43:51,457
I think maybe it didn't exist.

1106
00:43:51,487 --> 00:43:52,237
Let's defect to that

1107
00:43:52,237 --> 00:43:52,327
Andy: one.

1108
00:43:52,327 --> 00:43:53,167
It didn't exist.

1109
00:43:53,167 --> 00:43:56,557
I'm afraid you'd already given the
answer, but... So this was A) an

1110
00:43:56,557 --> 00:43:58,057
American radio host called Gene Shepherd.

1111
00:43:58,057 --> 00:44:01,597
He was annoyed at the system because
book charts were done a by sales, but

1112
00:44:01,597 --> 00:44:03,727
also by what was requested in bookshops.

1113
00:44:04,087 --> 00:44:07,357
So he said to all his listeners,
let's all go and request the book.

1114
00:44:07,387 --> 00:44:10,867
I libertine and thousands of people
across the states went into their

1115
00:44:10,867 --> 00:44:13,297
local book shop and said, I'd
like to buy I libertine, please.

1116
00:44:13,297 --> 00:44:13,867
It's out soon.

1117
00:44:14,467 --> 00:44:17,317
and it got onto the New York
Times bestseller list as a result

1118
00:44:17,317 --> 00:44:17,797
of that.

1119
00:44:18,202 --> 00:44:18,592
Yeah.

1120
00:44:18,597 --> 00:44:20,157
Helen: And then he
actually actually did it?

1121
00:44:20,212 --> 00:44:20,422
Andy: Yes.

1122
00:44:20,422 --> 00:44:21,757
The book was then
commissioned and written.

1123
00:44:23,582 --> 00:44:24,047
Helen: I was gonna... it's-

1124
00:44:24,382 --> 00:44:25,882
Adam: Fly Fishing by JR Hartley.

1125
00:44:26,077 --> 00:44:26,467
It became-

1126
00:44:27,472 --> 00:44:27,772
Andy: Yeah.

1127
00:44:27,802 --> 00:44:29,362
Exactly how publishing works.

1128
00:44:30,352 --> 00:44:30,802
Two more.

1129
00:44:30,922 --> 00:44:34,552
In 1998, an illustrated biography
of New York artist, Nat Tate was

1130
00:44:34,552 --> 00:44:37,642
published full of interesting
photos and details of his life.

1131
00:44:37,792 --> 00:44:42,022
Tate was in fact a completely
fabricated artist, despite the fact

1132
00:44:42,022 --> 00:44:46,492
one of his paintings had been sold
at auction to Ant from Anton deck.

1133
00:44:48,027 --> 00:44:49,182
And so Tate was completely-

1134
00:44:49,842 --> 00:44:50,672
Helen: That took a turn.

1135
00:44:50,672 --> 00:44:50,710
It took a turn.

1136
00:44:50,782 --> 00:44:51,062
Andy: I know!

1137
00:44:51,462 --> 00:44:52,287
Tate was fictional.

1138
00:44:52,347 --> 00:44:54,807
Which big beast author
was behind the fraud?

1139
00:44:54,807 --> 00:44:57,677
Was it Wilber Smith, William
Boyd, or Salmon Rushdie?

1140
00:44:57,927 --> 00:44:58,736
Ian: It was William boyd.

1141
00:44:58,752 --> 00:44:59,262
Andy: It was William Boyd.

1142
00:44:59,402 --> 00:45:01,477
Adam: It was... David Bowie
was in on it, wasn't he?

1143
00:45:01,857 --> 00:45:06,057
Andy: David Bowie, who we haven't said
was at the launch party and quotes about

1144
00:45:06,057 --> 00:45:07,957
how Marvel, yeah, really admire his

1145
00:45:08,317 --> 00:45:08,587
Helen: This has

1146
00:45:08,637 --> 00:45:08,917
Andy: work.

1147
00:45:09,077 --> 00:45:09,717
All of that.

1148
00:45:10,207 --> 00:45:12,517
Helen: This is, this must predate me.

1149
00:45:12,517 --> 00:45:14,257
When time was, when did this-

1150
00:45:14,607 --> 00:45:15,297
Andy: Late nineties.

1151
00:45:16,712 --> 00:45:16,714
Ian: I know.

1152
00:45:16,877 --> 00:45:17,917
Helen: Too cool and listening to-

1153
00:45:18,767 --> 00:45:25,397
Ian: It was a very, good scam and an
inordinate amount of detail, which

1154
00:45:25,577 --> 00:45:30,017
like with the Hitler, forger, you just
thought no one could have made up.

1155
00:45:30,197 --> 00:45:33,407
All this stuff about this bloke's
life and they think they did.

1156
00:45:33,947 --> 00:45:35,867
'Cause they knew you lot
would look it all up.

1157
00:45:35,897 --> 00:45:36,557
Andy: Yeah.

1158
00:45:36,767 --> 00:45:40,582
And the really nice thing is William
Boyd, one of one of the friends of

1159
00:45:40,582 --> 00:45:44,662
Nat Tate pictured in the book, was
Logan Mount Stewart, who was the

1160
00:45:44,662 --> 00:45:48,622
actually fictional person that Boyd
then wrote his Any Human Heart about,

1161
00:45:49,462 --> 00:45:52,642
very detailed, but like fictional
biography of a 20th century life.

1162
00:45:52,642 --> 00:45:52,762
Yeah.

1163
00:45:53,092 --> 00:45:53,422
Very clever.

1164
00:45:53,422 --> 00:45:53,423
Clever.

1165
00:45:53,428 --> 00:45:54,682
Ian: He should have done it
once, so he did it again.

1166
00:45:54,682 --> 00:45:54,892
Andy: Yeah.

1167
00:45:56,610 --> 00:46:00,150
Finally, this year's summer reading
list in the Chicago Sun Times and the

1168
00:46:00,150 --> 00:46:05,220
Philadelphia Inquiry included completely
fabricated books by real authors,

1169
00:46:05,370 --> 00:46:09,720
including Isabel Allen Day's, Tidewater
Dreams, not a real book, and Pernille

1170
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:14,395
Everetts, The Rainmakers author, not a
real book who had made up the fake titles.

1171
00:46:14,425 --> 00:46:16,615
Was it A, A recently fired Subedit?

1172
00:46:16,855 --> 00:46:19,795
Was it B, the editor's boyfriend
who got drunk and hacked the system?

1173
00:46:19,975 --> 00:46:20,635
Was it C?

1174
00:46:21,285 --> 00:46:22,415
Nobody at all.

1175
00:46:23,145 --> 00:46:24,135
Helen: was nobody at all.

1176
00:46:24,135 --> 00:46:25,135
It was an AI.

1177
00:46:25,185 --> 00:46:26,155
Andy: Well done was it?

1178
00:46:26,295 --> 00:46:27,155
It was AI

1179
00:46:27,775 --> 00:46:30,175
Helen: it and they just, then
some guy just plugged it in and

1180
00:46:30,175 --> 00:46:31,855
he was some random freelancer.

1181
00:46:32,035 --> 00:46:34,870
Andy: A random freelancer said
it was a huge mistake on my part.

1182
00:46:34,930 --> 00:46:39,430
And these books had been AI generated
and just ended up on the books to

1183
00:46:39,430 --> 00:46:41,810
read the summer list, which doesn't
Percival Everetts'  The Rainmaker.

1184
00:46:41,810 --> 00:46:44,740
Sounds like a brilliant book, from
the synopsis, but it does not exist.

1185
00:46:45,370 --> 00:46:47,490
Helen: There's John Grisham book
called The Rainmaker, which pre

1186
00:46:47,490 --> 00:46:49,810
presume if you had that rewritten,
like he did Huckleberry Finn,

1187
00:46:49,830 --> 00:46:51,150
if he rewrites John Grisham's-

1188
00:46:51,150 --> 00:46:51,657
Rainmaker,

1189
00:46:51,657 --> 00:46:52,970
Ian: yeah, that.

1190
00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:53,820
Yeah, I'd read that.

1191
00:46:54,245 --> 00:46:55,768
Helen: I was hoping for JT Leroy.

1192
00:46:55,798 --> 00:46:56,998
That's my favorite literary fraud.

1193
00:46:56,998 --> 00:46:57,448
You remember that?

1194
00:46:57,448 --> 00:47:00,568
And they, were two women
cooked up this entire author.

1195
00:47:00,568 --> 00:47:02,998
They just, it was, they pretended
to be a sort of androgynous guy,

1196
00:47:02,998 --> 00:47:04,888
and it just seemed to involve
one of, than wearing a hat.

1197
00:47:05,488 --> 00:47:05,638
And-

1198
00:47:05,713 --> 00:47:07,903
Andy: photos are amazingly unconvincing.

1199
00:47:07,963 --> 00:47:08,383
Yeah.

1200
00:47:08,388 --> 00:47:09,043
Helen: Just a guy a hat.

1201
00:47:09,148 --> 00:47:09,938
Or a woman in a a hat.

1202
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:11,820
Andy: Scores at the end.

1203
00:47:11,820 --> 00:47:12,750
In third place.

1204
00:47:13,620 --> 00:47:14,520
Adam, I'm afraid.

1205
00:47:15,270 --> 00:47:18,030
In second place... Helen

1206
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:18,960
First place: Ian!

1207
00:47:19,350 --> 00:47:20,850
It was the Hitler diaries, clearly on age.

1208
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:23,940
Anyway, there you go.

1209
00:47:23,940 --> 00:47:28,500
There's your quiz about, the, greatest
and least true memoirs of all time.

1210
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:30,420
hope you enjoyed playing along at home.

1211
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,370
Hope you enjoyed this
whole episode of page 94.

1212
00:47:32,370 --> 00:47:34,170
We'll be back in a
fortnight with another one.

1213
00:47:34,220 --> 00:47:37,730
Until then, why not go and buy
the magazine private-eye.co.uk.

1214
00:47:38,247 --> 00:47:40,527
Thanks to Ian, Helen,
Adam, and Jane of course.

1215
00:47:40,557 --> 00:47:44,397
And thank you to Matt Hill, of Rethink
Audio, as always for producing.

1216
00:47:44,547 --> 00:47:44,997
Bye for now.