Simon Dell (00:01.816)
So welcome to the very first, not the very first CMO podcast, but our new podcast, which is all about fractional CMOs. And joining me is probably the fractional CMO that we've known the longest, Christie Hunter. That's not a particularly fantastic title I've just given you there, welcome to this first podcast. How are you?

Kristy (00:25.937)
You

Thank you. I'm well, thank you. Yeah, doing well.

Simon Dell (00:32.28)
Good, good, good. All right, awesome. Now, just for everybody's benefit, the benefit, sorry, the idea behind this is that we've adjusted our podcast direction, which was originally a bit broader about marketing, and we're gonna specifically talk about fractional CMOs and two fractional CMOs, about what they do, the challenges that they face, their clients, and so on and so forth.

It may stray out of that lane every now and again because it just always does. But what we thought we'd do with this very first episode here is talk about what the hell a fractional CMO is because this is my first question to you, Christie. When did you first hear the term fractional? Because that itself is quite a new expression, especially in the Australian marketplace.

not so much the American, but when did that sort of, you become aware of that?

Kristy (01:38.604)
I was when I started working with you guys, to be honest. So that was like, well, I don't know, five or so years ago. But for me, that language just really resonated because, you know, I think it takes, you know, consulting. If people think that, not that consulting is basic, but it's so much more than consulting, if that makes sense.

Simon Dell (01:40.784)
Hahaha

Simon Dell (02:06.67)
Absolutely, and it's funny because I had this conversation last Friday, Friday before that, with a guy down in Sydney and he said to me, he said exactly the same thing, goes, I've never realised all these years what I've been doing, he said, but I've read the term fractional CMO, he goes, that's what I've been doing.

Kristy (02:08.197)
Yeah.

Kristy (02:24.753)
Absolutely, Yeah.

Simon Dell (02:26.872)
But it is bigger than the consultancy because I feel consultants, and we do use the term consultants every now and again, but I feel consultants are there, they come in and they leave and they don't necessarily, they're not necessarily as involved in the business as I think fractional CMOs are. Would that be your understanding as well?

Kristy (02:35.963)
We don't yet.

Kristy (02:51.621)
Yeah, I think there's a level of investment. Well, from my perspective, there is anyway, you know, it's like, I feel like I'm helping.

you know, my business grow alongside theirs and therefore there has to be a level of investment and involvement. And maybe I'm too involved sometimes, but I think that comes back to, you know, building really good relationships ultimately, right? And you do, even though you're not an employee, I think there's sometimes the CEO or the business owner feels like you kind of are, you know?

Simon Dell (03:17.922)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (03:28.622)
Yeah, that's the difference that I see. I think a fractional CMO should be treating themselves as part of the team. And I think consultants are not necessarily kind of butting heads with the people, but I think fractional CMO is a much more collaborative approach than a consultant which is still sort of staying.

Kristy (03:36.849)
That's right.

Kristy (03:49.349)
Yes.

Simon Dell (03:53.832)
very much on the outside because that's kind of what they need to do because they need to be super objective.

Kristy (04:00.453)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think for me, the way I kind of do my fractional CMO work, it's not just coming in and creating the strategy and collaborating on that strategy and going here you go, it's making sure that the...

Simon Dell (04:19.854)
Hmm.

Kristy (04:22.917)
the team they have can implement that really well. And then I'm overseeing that as well to make sure that they're all performing in their roles and the activities that, you know, in that strategy are performing as well. I need to make sure that, yeah, all of that is working smoothly and then, you know, processes, procedures and all of that. So consultants don't get into the nitty gritty of that. They're likely just to develop the strategy, go, yep, you got it, good, okay. See you later.

Simon Dell (04:35.182)
Mm.

Simon Dell (04:40.503)
No.

Simon Dell (04:50.838)
Yeah, I I've seen I keep thinking about I worked at NHK business several years ago and they had consultants from Deloitte coming in.

And I was technically there as a consultant on a digital marketing, but I was looking at it now and I go, I was more of a fractional digital marketing head because I had my own desk. I was in all the team meetings every week. I was treated like a member of the business, even though I was there for sort of a day and a half every week. Whereas the Deloitte guys who were doing

Kristy (05:13.051)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Simon Dell (05:31.512)
their project, rocked up, sat in a little room, all isolated to themselves, all ate lunch together. And that felt very distant. And I think anyone who wants to be a fractional CMO, you're going into this with a view that you're becoming part of their team and a really, really important part of their team.

Kristy (05:55.748)
It is and I it's immersing yourself in there, you know, it's like building relationships not just to see But I come in and go right. How can I? build relationships with the marketing people and the sales people and the finance people and and everyone that you know, you are You know, I guess those touch points in the business that is critical for you to perform well and you're for the marketing side to perform well it's

Simon Dell (06:17.422)
Hmm.

Kristy (06:24.433)
There's so much more to it, you know, when you actually get in there.

Simon Dell (06:26.668)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So look, I think it's nice and clear that it's not, we're not consultants. I think it's nice and clear that we're not effectively, I mean, I know some people have turned into employees and part-time employees, but I think there's that also balance that we're not an employee because then we do still retain a little bit of objectivity.

Kristy (06:47.288)
Yes.

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I think that there has to be like I see I'm one of the leaders, you know, as you know, someone that the CEO can rely on to go, they might come to me go, what are you saying here? You know, like, can you give me your advice? You know, and so for me, I kind of become an advisor sometimes to the CEO during that that period, which is a good place to be, think.

Simon Dell (07:14.584)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (07:18.882)
Yes, yeah, it's difficult because you're not an employee, you're not a consultant. There's an advisory role there as well, but even so, it's not quite that. Which is why when I sort of look at the term fractional CMO, and I see the word fractional, I go, okay, I get that. There's a permanency of the fractional. It's somebody that wants Christie Hunter skills. They want your brain, they want your advice.

Kristy (07:29.616)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (07:49.08)
but they couldn't largely afford to pay you a full-time role. And probably not only, think that's the two things, not only could they not afford to pay you a full-time role, they probably don't need you a full-time role. I would imagine most of the people that you work with don't need Christie five days a week.

Kristy (08:08.337)
They really don't because once we have the right people in place implementing, it's just me going in and going, right, how are we tracking? Are we, from a strategy point of view, are we nailing that? Do we have to tweak anything? Looking at the performance and also from a, just being a mentor. I mean, I don't know if all fractional CMOs.

mentor, I personally do, because I think that there's importance in supporting those people in the business, you know, because they're not, the CEO is not a marketer, you know, other people in the business, they're not marketers. So having someone that they can lean on, you know, when I'm there, I think is really important because again, that comes back to productivity performance and how well the team is doing that, you know, relates to revenue ultimately.

Simon Dell (08:59.33)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's look at those things that, you know, from a fractional CMO, what a fractional CMO should be doing. Because I think, you know, whilst you could sit there and go, well, that's an, you know, a long list. I think they fit into some, some really clear buckets. I think the first thing you said, and I would talk about these individually, I think there is three key things. think number one is building a strategy. Number two is ensuring the implementation of that strategy.

on an ongoing basis. And the third one, I think, is what you just mentioned there was mentoring. Mentoring, up-skilling, training, educating, whatever bundle that you wanna put into it. So let's talk about that strategy one. Invariably, most of the time, I suspect you walk into these businesses and there is no strategy. And even some of

Kristy (09:52.163)
the time.

Simon Dell (09:53.568)
Even from a business perspective, there doesn't appear to be a strategy, not just a not just no marketing strategy.

Kristy (09:58.942)
yeah, so sometimes pulling business information out is really hard. Like just basic business goals, like revenue goals and you know, what do they want to be achieving in the next, you know, two, three, four, five years is somewhat challenging.

Simon Dell (10:15.896)
Yeah.

Kristy (10:16.355)
some businesses that although there are some business owners and leaders out there that know that straight off the bat but they still don't have a strategy so I just that's the starting point what are the goals that has to be it where you start

Simon Dell (10:26.7)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And building that strategy, you know, again, depending on the business can take, I mean, look, I've done strategies on a piece of paper in about half an hour, you know, but, you know, but I've also been in a situation where I've gone, you know what, I need a good.

Kristy (10:38.777)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Simon Dell (10:44.736)
eight week run at this because I need to talk to some people, I need to understand that, you know, the systems in the businesses, the people in the businesses. But it's a case by case basis, isn't it? Each one is.

Kristy (10:48.24)
Yeah.

Kristy (10:55.479)
It really is, yeah, it depends on the size and yeah, team and yeah, what their ambition is. Yeah, you know, whether they want to dig in deep into like customer research and when that is an activity, then that obviously prolongs that period of when you're developing that strategy piece. You don't necessarily have to do that every time, but you know.

So it really does depend on the business.

Simon Dell (11:25.858)
Going off on a tangent there from a strategy perspective and all the people that you've worked with in the past, is there a particular industry or a type that you found the hardest that you think is probably the most challenging in terms of walking into and going, shit, I don't know what I'm gonna do here.

Kristy (11:45.712)
I think some tech businesses, like, cause they are obviously super smart people, but for them to articulate, you know, what they do in a simple way is really challenging. So I'm like, you just got to dumb it down guys. Like you might think that, you know, you are talking.

Simon Dell (11:47.843)
Yeah.

Kristy (12:09.457)
in a way that you're like, oh, this is just, you know, super simple and people like, are just gonna think, oh, you just, you know, yeah, like just dubbing it down too much because I've had, I definitely have had clients, well, our clients are technical, they'll know this. And I'm like, you're still missing the mark here.

Simon Dell (12:24.334)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (12:28.429)
Yeah.

Kristy (12:28.527)
You know, so technical businesses for me, I'm just like, it just hurts my brain. Because then I have to understand what they do. you know, unless you spend like a lot of time in the business, there's times where I'm just like, I think I'm just scratching the surface here.

Simon Dell (12:45.014)
Yeah, yeah, I mean I've worked with software businesses, specific software businesses in specific niches and I look at it and just go, don't face it with dread, maybe I do face it with dread, maybe I'm just lying to myself. But I face it, I look at it and just go, Christ, I've got to understand what this software does.

Kristy (13:00.753)
Yeah, yeah.

Kristy (13:12.571)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (13:13.238)
to be able to do, create some sort of valid marketing strategy, which is why I generally don't work with clients anymore. But when I do, the one I'm working with at the moment is a brewery because I go, hey, I fucking understand this, right? There's zero complexity here. But you know, I say that, it's, you know.

Kristy (13:17.275)
Yeah.

Kristy (13:27.331)
right up your alley.

yeah, yeah.

Kristy (13:39.558)
think there's if you want to develop any good strategy there still takes you know some thinking time and your research and all of that so I don't think anything super simple you know the industry you know beer brewery it's it seems simple but like the thinking behind that and making sure that you're going to market with a good strategy it still takes time and effort

Simon Dell (13:49.751)
Hmm.

Simon Dell (14:01.26)
Yeah, I'll you the ones I find the hardest in the strategy. Not the hardest, that's the wrong word, challenging, or more complex, right? Will be the ones where you have businesses that you are trying to target multiple different decision makers within the business, right? So you get, let's say you're working with a client that is trying to sell something to construction companies.

Kristy (14:23.023)
Yes.

Simon Dell (14:28.994)
but they know that there is a requirement that, know, so let's say it's, don't know, health and safety software or whatever it might be. You need to have, the people that are implementing the software need to buy into it. The CFO who's going to spend the money needs to buy into it. And the CEO who runs the company needs to buy into it and their own internal safety people need to. So you've got.

Kristy (14:35.781)
Yeah.

Kristy (14:42.981)
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Kristy (14:55.994)
Yup.

Simon Dell (14:56.844)
three to four different decision makers and your marketing strategy needs to appeal to all of them.

Kristy (15:04.663)
Yes, indeed. Yeah. And I did that for a mining company when I worked in house. Again, it was tech and mining. So it was we had to appeal to the user. that was, you know, machinery operators, truck drivers that were wearing a headband that measured their fatigue levels, basically.

Simon Dell (15:06.38)
And I thought that's one way.

Simon Dell (15:27.138)
Right, okay.

Kristy (15:27.761)
And we had to go, this is safe, you don't have it. And they were like, no, it's gonna fry our brains. The users were like, no, it can read our brainwaves. It was weird. And then of course you had procurement within that and the leaders of the business.

But it was a safety product so we knew that you know because safety is so big in mining If you have an incident on site your whole site's going to shut down and you're going to lose millions of dollars so that's so that's the message to the CEOs and the leaders and then the safety stuff like Make sure that you are focusing on the safety of your of your workers because we want them to come home to their families and so you you know, so there's there was

Simon Dell (16:02.094)
Totally.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (16:19.387)
messaging at different levels.

Simon Dell (16:22.274)
Yeah, that's a challenge. Especially also when the sale cycle can be really long. the decision is something they'll go, hey, yes, we want to buy this today. This is something which go, hey, let's look at this in next year's budgets. And you're just like.

Kristy (16:28.899)
And it is. Yes.

Yeah.

Kristy (16:38.391)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, it's such a long process.

Simon Dell (16:40.6)
So strategy is sites, the strategy number one part of being a fractional CMO. Second thing is then the implementation of that because I think, again, there's a lot of people that's just sort of go, know, I think the view of a consultant is, here's your strategy, we'll see you later, you know, and they let the client try and implement it themselves.

Kristy (17:01.157)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (17:04.686)
I feel with a fractional CMO, the job is very much about, now I've worked out what it is you need to do. Now I'm going to help you execute that. How do you do that best?

Kristy (17:22.059)
Yeah, so a couple of things. I just assess where they're at currently and what their appetite is to build out a marketing team or if their preference is to use external suppliers and then have my oversight where it doesn't matter which option they go with, but I always recommend I need to oversee that to make sure that this is being implemented and done well.

Simon Dell (17:46.178)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (17:50.566)
to get the results that you need. And then I usually just aim to say, look, you you can work with me in a couple of different ways. I can come in one day a week, or I can check in with you on a Monday for a half an hour phone call and I can come in once a month. It really does depend on, yeah, where they're at, budget.

Simon Dell (18:08.878)
Hmm.

Kristy (18:12.225)
you know, and do they actually want someone responsible for that marketing function in their business or do they think that they can just deal with that themselves?

Simon Dell (18:23.51)
Assuming you've done the strategy and they've bought into it and they've gone, yep, Christie, we need to execute all this. And they're open-minded as to how that needs to happen, which is obviously the, that's the place you want to be in. How hands-on do you remain as a fractional CMO moving forward?

Kristy (18:28.763)
Yep.

Kristy (18:45.945)
So I would say I set up systems like a weekly whip and we go through all the projects to make sure that things are moving. And we're obviously optimizing as we're going along. So there's that. And then I'll also do a check in with the business leader.

Simon Dell (18:49.932)
Yeah.

Kristy (19:03.973)
like a one-on-one phone call or a meeting or if I'm in there's a client that I work long-term client that I work with where I it's every Wednesday I work with the marketing coordinator on key initiatives there's key initiatives that I work on because there's just too much going on so it's like the top level stuff that I kind of help out like for instance at the moment I'm helping trademarking yeah yeah but

Simon Dell (19:28.406)
Right, okay.

Kristy (19:32.54)
The standard stuff is monthly reporting. I'm in there once a month and I'm the coordinator and I pull reports together. are right, is where we're this is where we're tracking. So we've set KPIs and we make sure that we're hitting those. So that's the level of involvement on an ongoing long-term basis. That's where we can do some really good work. That's where we can get some great results happening.

Simon Dell (19:48.065)
Okay.

Simon Dell (19:59.01)
And again, that's not a hard and fast rule for a fractional CMO. I've seen fractional CMOs that are perhaps a bit more standoffish than you would be. And I've also seen fractional CMOs that are much more immersed than you might be as well. So I think it's case by case basis in terms of what does the client need? What is the fractional CMO capable of doing?

Kristy (20:09.947)
Totally, yes.

Kristy (20:16.705)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yep.

Yeah.

Kristy (20:27.435)
Exactly. It's like what your skill set is as well. Like I'm lucky in the sense that I can do a lot of things. I'm not, I don't love getting into back ends of websites. I have done it, but do I want to? I really don't. So I don't want to be creating social media posts. Can I do it? Yes. Can I do emails? Yes, I can. Like, but that is not the best use of my time.

it's the strategy, it's digging into the numbers, it's building those relationships and driving initiatives forward in the business.

Simon Dell (20:56.79)
Okay, so we've got building the strategy, we've got implementing the strategy, and I think the third one, which is often very, very overlooked, the third aspect, I think, of a good fractional CMO is this idea that you're there to nurture, train, develop, whatever phrase you wanna use here.

your job is to work with people within the business and potentially upskill them in terms of their knowledge of marketing. And for me, that could be the CEO, which is the obvious one, because I think, as you said earlier on, you find a lot of CEOs, trade-based CEOs, they've come up through the business, or they've started the business and they understand the operational side of the business, but not so much the rest of it.

But I think there's also an opportunity for a lot of fractional CMOs to really put an imprint on some of the junior members of the marketing team. are internal ones. Have you found yourself doing that a lot or is that something that you could do more of or what's the?

Kristy (21:54.033)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Kristy (22:01.349)
Yeah, yeah. So I've got one currently and the work that I did at People Inn that we brought on a marketer coordinator.

Yeah, that that was I think a surprise to the leadership team. They're like, we didn't think that was part of You know your offering but that but like we can see that that's what you know where your skill set lies And that's really helpful for us. So thank you Because I just see the need there right like why wouldn't you want to support and help up skill your people?

Simon Dell (22:27.811)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (22:35.062)
Absolutely, absolutely. Even if it's not necessarily upskilling them directly, but it's also, mean, look, I think a lot of fractional CMOs might look at it as go, well, I don't want to upskill them too much because that puts me out of a job. And it can, you're absolutely right. But inevitably, I think long-term doing the right thing by the client is better than you sort of.

Kristy (22:50.873)
can.

Simon Dell (23:05.102)
trying to hold on for dear life.

Kristy (23:07.217)
Absolutely. Yeah, you don't want to be kind of scraping around going I've got to prove some you know that I'm adding value here like you know I've come to the woods like the end of contract sometimes I'm like I think this is nearing the end because you know, there's not much here for me to do now. So yeah Yeah

Simon Dell (23:15.671)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (23:25.078)
Yeah, well that's an interesting thing to perhaps like focus on, make that the next question is, how do you know when it's time to go?

Kristy (23:36.754)
Well, I think for like if you have helped build out the marketing team or at least one coordinator in the business and they're performing well and they're super happy and everyone's thriving and You're turning up on a weekly basis and you're going Honestly, I don't think there's anything else here for me to do

It doesn't happen too often because the current situation with the marketing coordinator in this longer term with his longer term client is she doesn't have any ambitions to get to that strategy or marketing manager. She likes just.

Simon Dell (24:10.774)
Right. Yep.

Kristy (24:15.597)
not being told what to do, but she's just got a job and she's happy to do it. And she likes me as that layer in there where she's like, it's okay. I don't mind dealing with, you know, the leaders of the business, but I don't want that responsibility on top of all this as well. so people are happy just to do the do and that's, that's okay. Not every marketer is ambitious.

Simon Dell (24:36.91)
Yeah, yeah. I, I, I, yeah, I think, I mean, I would argue that I would argue that a fractional CMO should never, a contract should never come to an end. And I, might, my, point is, that, is that I think if you are genuinely, you generally have insight, you genuinely, understand the business that even after the strategy has been put in place,

Kristy (24:53.163)
Okay.

Simon Dell (25:06.09)
you've got a good implementation team in there, you know, you've upskilled all the internal members of the team. I would argue that there's still a position that you should be going in for an hour, two hours a month and just going, hey, I'm here to stress test everything. And I think perhaps that's the, that's the final.

Kristy (25:20.677)
Yep, yep.

Simon Dell (25:32.334)
That's the final boss moment of being a fractional CMO is that you're there is the stress test. Out to walk in and go, are these things being done? Is this achieving what we set it out to achieve? Are the results what you want? And if the client at any point says no, you're there then to go, well, why not?

Kristy (25:34.417)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (25:42.747)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (25:54.892)
And I think that's what we should be focusing on as a long-term position as a fractional CMO.

Kristy (26:01.275)
Yeah, the only other time where I'd say that they might not want you there anymore is when they go, you've just set up all their systems and we're rolling nicely. We think it's time to put on a full time marketing manager.

Simon Dell (26:16.958)
True, Yeah, no, but I would still argue the stress test is there is is you know The you know To sit there and say, know, your car doesn't need to see a mechanic once a month because it's got a great driver You know, I mean, I know that's a fucking terrible analogy, but there's still there's still an argument there that that's That's you're there to poke

Kristy (26:19.046)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kristy (26:35.313)
Yeah.

Kristy (26:45.497)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Look, I agree. I just think that not every CEO or business leader necessarily sees it like that. You know, like, yeah.

Simon Dell (26:45.71)
You know, that's a poke. You know.

Simon Dell (26:54.478)
No, and perhaps they don't necessarily want attention drawn to, know, maybe they're not.

Kristy (27:00.081)
Yeah, yeah, cuz you don't want to be seen to be nitpicking at the marketing manager or or whatever So you kind of have to like let them go let them thrive and learn yeah Yeah, that's right

Simon Dell (27:08.012)
Yeah, yeah. Let them make their own. yeah, it's like children. Just let them go once they reach just their age. Okay, so look, I think that's a really good overview of what a fractional CMO does. I'd be super interested if anyone's listening to this later on to give us your ideas if there's things you think we've missed. Obviously, I think that's a broader.

That's a broader overview. We're not going into the nitty gritty and the details today. Probably the last question I want to ask you today is, I think the first half has very much been targeted to people who might be thinking of becoming a fractional CMO, but even clients who are thinking of bringing a fractional CMO in. This question is sort of strictly, I would say, or maybe, actually maybe, it's for both sides of it as well.

But how do you charge or how do you, let's say, because I imagine it's different from different clients, how do you prefer to charge? Because in my understanding, there's kind of four different ways. By the hour, by the day, by the outcomes, and then kind of on the side by the project, which is also by the outcomes. know, let's say the third one is by the month.

Kristy (28:32.847)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (28:36.664)
then the fourth one is by the outcomes.

Kristy (28:39.205)
Yeah, yeah, So I charge by the project, the deliverable, initially. So I will come in, because usually they go, we need a strategy. I'm like, well, let's start with that, right? So there's a process with that. I give them an idea of my process, the timeline, and they just package that up based on my knowledge, expertise, and all that, right?

And so I present that to them, but I also present the fact that they can still have me there to support them and keep them accountable and help with that oversight of the implementation on a weekly monthly basis. And I give you, give them some options around that. And that is usually built around my hourly rate. Yeah.

Simon Dell (29:18.956)
Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Dell (29:27.276)
Okay. Okay. So I think the challenges I see with all four of those options, number one hourly rate. See there's a time and place for hourly rate and I know a lot of CMOs that are fractional CMOs who are, who do an hourly rate with a block of hours per month for a client. Because that helps them stay nice and defined with that client. I'm do.

10 hours with you every month and this is where we're going to use those hours. So it doesn't bleed into other staff. They then can have the capacity to say, no, we've done all the hours this month. Sorry, you've got to wait till next month. So I think that works well with some people. And there's pros and cons for all of these, right? The challenge with the hourly one is when you get nitpicky clients going, well, you said you did 10 hours this month, but I only know that you did nine hours.

Kristy (30:25.393)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Simon Dell (30:26.336)
Right. I'd argue if you ever get into that conversation, you just want to.

Kristy (30:30.001)
really because I like even though I calculated off a hourly I don't tell them that's how I've calculated it. So I say your option is you can check in with me for 15 minutes once a week and you get an hour in person or on a call, right? So that and then like that's a little price. So I mean, I do say like out of scope and if you need me for anything extra, it's three 350 an hour.

Simon Dell (30:35.648)
No, no, No.

Simon Dell (30:45.794)
Yes, yes, yes.

Simon Dell (30:56.3)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. think, and then I think the day rate, some people like doing day rates because that gives, that's a start and finish point. You know, they come in, I'm gonna spend the day with you, I'm gonna immerse myself in the business, but when I'm gone, that's it, right? I don't want you calling me at three o'clock in the morning on a fucking Thursday or whatever, asking me stuff that, that's, I'm here to do this on this day.

Kristy (31:02.171)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Yep. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Kristy (31:17.073)
completely and I do have one client like that. So I charge a day rate for that client and they know that I'm not gonna be checking emails and doing anything out of hours. So that works nicely for me too.

Simon Dell (31:29.356)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The third one I think is the month is my preference now and my preference in terms of people that work with us and how they invoice, right? Is that fixed fee per month. And there's a reason why I think this one works so well is number one, the December January challenge, right? If you go.

Kristy (31:43.311)
Yeah, yeah.

Kristy (31:54.833)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (31:57.184)
If you do it hours or you do days per month and you get to December and people go, well, you're only going to really do half a month and you're like, that's my billing halved. And then January, some of them don't get back until the last week of January. You know, all of a sudden you're taking a, sometimes a six week dive in your business. Right.

Kristy (32:18.705)
Yeah, yes, yes.

Simon Dell (32:21.786)
I think when you present it as a monthly rate and you start, start, have the conversation at the start of the, of your contract with them and you say to them every month is this fee. So let's say seven grand, right? But you say in December, it's going to be three and a half thousand dollars. And in January, it's going to be three and a half thousand dollars because I'm going to take four weeks off. You're going to take four weeks off. When you start the conversation like that.

Kristy (32:29.509)
Yep, yep.

Kristy (32:47.227)
Yeah, yeah.

Simon Dell (32:52.78)
then they're anticipating it already. When it comes around you don't have to have that awkward conversation about well, you know, what are you going to do over December?

Kristy (32:55.323)
Yes, that's right.

Kristy (33:02.491)
Correct, correct, yeah.

Simon Dell (33:04.078)
The other thing I like with the monthly fee is, and I had this conversation with another one of our fractional CMOs, Jamie, the other day, who's new to all this. I said, pick an amount of money. Now within that, give some defined time. So you go, hey, I'm gonna charge you this amount of money and included in that is a half a day in the business every week. But also within that, I'm gonna

I'm gonna do this, this, this, this. So, undefined things. Things with undefined timings, if that makes sense. Right, added. For him it might be, I'm, you know, any emails you wanna send me, I'll reply to any emails, right? So, it's not like I'm put a fixed amount of emails or a fixed amount of time on the emails. say, I'm, it's, whenever you email me, I'll email you back within 24 hours.

Kristy (33:42.801)
What's an example of that?

Kristy (33:54.086)
Yeah.

Kristy (34:01.745)
Yeah. Yep.

Simon Dell (34:02.766)
Right? With him and I think with some other CMOS, you'll have access to my network as well. So any customers or people that I know in the past that potentially are good customers of yours, I will introduce you to them. And I think if you have a big network, that's extremely valuable in terms of what you can do for them. So you've got, to me, a fixed monthly fee with tangible and intangible benefits.

Kristy (34:18.065)
Yeah, absolutely.

Kristy (34:23.953)
Absolutely.

Simon Dell (34:32.27)
Intangible being around the hours days or whatever and intangible being about the you know, the other bigger things The last thing I think you've got to consider and I think this is especially true for someone like yourself is that You're not just paying for somebody's time. You're paying for your experience

Kristy (34:39.409)
for sure.

Kristy (34:53.233)
my brain. My coach is like, you need to share like your process and you know, like my business goes, how do you like get that information out of your brain about how you work and how you think and I'm like, I don't know.

Simon Dell (35:04.386)
Mm. Mm.

Simon Dell (35:09.07)
But it's that famous story, and I paraphrase, about the little guy that comes along and fixes a boat or something, and he fixes it in five minutes or 10 minutes or something like that. But he charges thousands and thousands of dollars, and they were like, but you were only here for 10 minutes. And he goes, yeah, but there's 20 years of experience in how to fix this boat in that 20 minutes. Because all the other people that tried to fix it couldn't fix it.

Kristy (35:17.051)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kristy (35:23.611)
Yeah.

Kristy (35:30.139)
Yes. Yes.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

Simon Dell (35:37.262)
And I think for you presenting you as, as Christie, just go, you're not just buying my time. You're buying my experience. And I think the biggest challenge from any fractional CMO is that message is making that message resonate with the client.

Kristy (35:44.611)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Kristy (35:55.142)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I do know that, you know, most of my clients do get surprised along that journey because I have worked in agency. I have headed up teams in startups to large organizations, run my own business. So I've been there, done that, seen it all, you know, and, and, and in agency land in particular, like you're working on so many different types of clients and you just have to be like,

you know, really quick to move and thinking. And so the fact that I have the ability to provide a solution pretty quickly, they go, shit. Okay. So yeah, that's that bonus.

Simon Dell (36:34.115)
Mm.

Simon Dell (36:38.7)
Yeah. Okay, look, you know, you and I can probably talk for hours and we probably will do this again in more detail. Anyone who wants to reach out to you, you're pretty easy to find out there.

Kristy (36:45.314)
Yeah.

Kristy (36:56.933)
that sounds.

Simon Dell (37:00.264)
I meant that in a pot, I meant that because your marketing is so good. It's HunterMarketing.co isn't it?

Kristy (37:02.987)
Okay.

Yeah, that's the website. Business is called Hunter Marketing Co. But yeah, that's the website. Fab. It's a pleasure.

Simon Dell (37:09.57)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Awesome. All right. Thank you very much for that. And as I say, anybody that listened in today and has some opinions and some ideas disagrees with anything we've said yet. Look, we'd love to hear. We'd love to hear feedback. So please send that through to me. CMO. If you want to find out more about us, www.cmo.com. That's about C E O H.

Kristy (37:24.581)
Yeah, yep. Bring it. Yep.

Simon Dell (37:39.534)
and I am on Simon at CMO.com. So once again, Christie, thank you for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Kristy (37:48.474)
Thanks for your time Simon.