Hi Kate.

Thank you for being here.

Hi, nice to see you.

I'm so excited to be here.

Thanks for having me.

Yes, I'm so excited.

Like I was saying before we started

recording, you came up on my feed

strolling and you were talking

about difficult relationships with

mother-in-laws and daughter-in-laws.

And you talk about so many complicated

relationships in marriage and family.

And so that's why I thought you are

perfect to come on because we see a

lot of these issues, I should say, I

dunno if that's the right term, but

come up in these stories that we read.

And so I thought from a professional

standpoint and we can kind of, you

chat about other stuff as well.

But before I get too into my fangirling

and being really excited about your

work, can you just tell us a little bit

more about yourself and what you do?

Yes, so I'm a licensed marriage and

family therapist, and I also make content

under the handle codependency, Kate.

I'm so passionate about education.

Like you said, these are huge issues

and people don't really talk about

them except venting to their friends.

people don't really understand

the background behind things.

And when I was in school to be a

therapist, I was learning all this stuff.

I was like, oh my gosh,

everyone needs to know this.

Why am I. Learning this

now, this is so important.

And so that's when I started

posting on social media, was in

grad school to purely educate.

And it's just kind of turned

into a thing, especially around,

estrangement specifically, just

because there's so much stuff happening

between marriages and in-laws.

It's so complicated and complex

and no one knows what to do.

And so I just try to zoom out and

educate people on family systems

theory and dynamics so that they

can be more informed, take this

information to their friends and

family, to their own relationships.

Obviously parallel to going

to a therapist themselves.

But, yeah, so that's what I just try

to do with the platform that I have.

Yeah.

No, I think that's so good because

like I was saying, in so many

of these stories, it's like.

Something might happen

completely outta left field.

Like the husband could have a

great relationship with his mom,

great relationship with his fiance,

and the second, they get engaged

or get married, there's a flip.

and so I think a lot of times people

don't know to prepare for that

or like how to prepare for that.

So is this something or you've studied a

lot in your work where it's like there's

a switch because it's like a power shift

and it's like, oh, he has a new family.

Like where does that come from?

Sometimes,

yeah, it's tough.

every situation is different,

but it's also not, you know,

there's definitely themes at play.

What I have seen in my work with clients.

cause it's different, my work with clients

and then a lot of stories I hear online,

there's very different audiences here,

but I've definitely seen this a lot.

I think what happens is, yes, there is

a totally different dynamic at play.

I think what happens is an outsider

coming in, it kind of reveals existing

dysfunction or existing, power imbalances.

Just very complex, nuanced things

that have existed for a long time.

It's all people in this dynamic know, like

say a new husband and his mom, they've

been in this dynamic, his whole life.

it's all he's known, but then his wife

comes into the picture and it kind

of challenges that relationship and.

It shouldn't, in healthy

families, it doesn't.

It's a, new daughter-in-law, for

example, is a welcome addition.

things are already set up to

be successful, again, in these

dysfunctional dynamics when things go

awry, when a new person's introduced.

Yeah.

And I find, and not to

group some, I should say.

Right.

I find a lot of times in the stories,

I feel like the husband or the

partner, the male partner I should

say, in heterosexual relationships.

Yeah.

Seems to be very, I don't wanna say

docile, but he seems to be like passive.

Yeah.

Like more passive.

we don't hear a lot of him in the story.

It's more of like, he's go with the flow.

And so like, I think it's.

He grows up, he's good with

the flow, he pleases, you know,

he is good to his parents.

And then if there's someone comes

in and she's maybe a little more

strong headed or she's not afraid

to like stand up for herself, I find

that's when there's usually like a.

Some that's, there's buffer contention.

Yeah.

Yeah.

are you saying, between

her and his family or, yes.

yeah, if the mom's kinda used to,

the sun being very like, go with the

flow and, I just find a kind common

theme, like when I have people on

here and we react to these stories,

they're like, where's the partner?

Where's the fiance?

You know, you hear like, this

bride rides in and she's like, this

happened, or like, the mother-in-law

cornered me or she yelled at me and

they're like, where's the fiance?

And it's kind of no position.

And that is the question that

is the question I asked too.

Because he's not necessarily in

the middle, but he is the link

between her and his family.

I did a video where I drew this kind of

in a, not a di, it's called a genogram,

where you just kind of draw it and

there's the parents up top, the son below

them, and then she's to the side of him.

You know, like she's not another child

of his parents and they're not totally

separate so roles are very important.

The concept of roles.

And that is the question is

what is the fiance doing here?

What is this dynamic?

There's a lot of reasons, you know, if

you go a little deeper, there's a lot of

reasons why he's that way, and that's kind

of the dynamic shift that has to happen.

He has to step into a different

role and that I guess, a lot of

men I think don't talk about that.

General.

Mm-hmm.

So they just kind of are overwhelmed by

these, women, these strong-willed women.

And, women can get a really bad

rap when the real core issue is a

more passive fiance in that role.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, definitely makes sense.

So one of the biggest things we were

talking about in wedding stories is

like the overbearing mother-in-law,

and it's funny 'cause a number of times

I'll say like, it's a mother-in-law,

people immediately are like, well the

bride's mom is, can be this way too.

And I'm like, well, mother-in-law could

be either the groom or the bride's mom.

It's just Oh yeah.

Whoever's perspective uhhuh.

But so many times people hear

mother-in-law and they just

assume, oh, it's the groom's mom.

but I always like to reiterate that.

Yeah.

So why do you think things like

planning a wedding, I'm sure

it's like high stress levels, but

Yeah.

Bring out this controlling or kind

of boundary pushing behavior on,

the mother's part or parents' part.

Yeah.

Well I think what I have seen recently

is there are very big generational

differences in the concepts of weddings.

I think in the past, mothers in-law

and, grandmothers have planned the

whole thing or, they've waited their

whole lives to do this for their child.

And the daughter, for example,

hasn't been very involved.

Everything's just been picked for

her and it's just done for her.

Mm-hmm.

Whereas now I think

brides wanna be the bride.

They wanna make those decisions and for

her parents to, not just be more in the

passenger seat or the backseat and her

not be in the passenger seat or backseat.

So I think that's one part of it.

And I think another part of it is that

people have this idea of wedding planning

being an amazing thing, and it's so much

fun and it brings everyone together.

It brings out the best in

everyone, and that it's just

not, it's just not the case.

It's kind of one of the first big

family events that happens after, you

know, high school graduation, college,

graduation or big family events.

So it can just bring out

everybody's stress responses.

And people I don't think

are prepared for that.

There's a lot of management.

There's It's a new stage for

the fiances to come together on.

That should be the point is to,

this is kind of their first endeavor

together where they're managing all

these things because the development

stage that they are in as a couple

from the family life cycle point of

view is leaving and cleaving from their

families of origin to come together.

So it's this like detachment

phase and I think that's just

really scary and unknown.

there's in it for parents.

And so it's just a whole

thing that people aren't

prepared

for.

Right.

And it's so complicated.

I'm sure you see it in

your work all the time.

'cause it's like definitely

there's nothing that's black

and white because Right.

I have heard stories where.

the mother-in-law has cried over

an engagement, but yes, maybe

the partner really was terrible

to their son or daughter.

so it's just that's their reaction.

So I wanna make people know too,

like, it's not always the parent

that they can see things too.

Like, okay, yeah, this person's

terrible to my son or daughter.

And they're scared.

Yeah.

And they're

scared.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, it's definitely nuance.

There's so many different, aspects of

that, but for couples that are maybe

going through a difficult relationship

with, in-laws as they kind of move

forward in the next stage, how did you

recommend they set clear boundaries?

whether it's before the wedding or kind

of moving into their new life together

so that there's not like a total blow up.

It's really tough, The stuff is so

hard for people to do on their own.

I think therapists could have a

whole like sector and there might

even be one of like engagement

counseling or like wedding planning

counseling because it's so stressful.

There's so much to manage and it's

really easy for people's stress responses

and kind of lack of emotion regulation

and all that stuff to come out.

And there's so much pressure

and expectations and

personalities to manage that.

I think first of all, meeting, like

having a therapist, having a third

party that is separate from the family.

not necessarily a wedding

planner 'cause they're not

qualified to be doing this stuff.

But like, just I think being on

the same page is the most important

thing in this process, I think.

'cause from my experience too, people

that have been married 10 years.

Have trauma from their engagement

and from their weddings with their

in-laws, with their families.

Just with one partner.

Not stepping up.

Not stepping in, or one

person doing too much.

it can magnify existing dynamic issues.

And so getting married and having a

wedding is not just about the wedding,

it's about starting a healthy dynamic.

and kind of fixing things.

Maybe that, or just getting ahead

of things that you don't foresee, or

just having someone guide you, I think

takes a lot of pressure off figuring

all of that out yourself, so, right.

Yeah.

Because I think a lot of couples

see it as like, oh, it's this

big party, it's gonna be easy.

They don't think about finances

like putting together this big

party where it's like, yes, it's

not unlimited money, first of all.

Yeah.

It's like your first time maybe like

putting money together for something big

or having people that are very opinionated

from different sides coming together

and that can be a stressor and mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hearing a lot of these stories, I'm

like, I feel so grateful that our

families just got along well and like,

I get along with my mother-in-law.

Great.

And so it's just, difficult when, These

relationships kind of come together

and it's like, okay, you can't make

everybody happy, but how do we do the

best at keeping as much peace as we can.

Yeah.

your perspective too, it's like how

much is keeping the piece too much like,

when are you bending over backwards

too much?

Exactly.

Like when is it no longer about you?

Mm-hmm.

And I think that is what can be really

sad in these situations is like.

if a bride, for example, is used

to keeping the peace, but then

for her wedding, she actually

has all these ideas that she's

wanted and she's used to caving.

And unfortunately, this is the one

situation where like she's shaking

things up and it causes problems.

You know, all her worst fears can

come true in these situations.

so I am of the advocate of a

wedding planner, a therapist, your

bridesmaids, your groomsmen, everyone

like supporting you, enlisting

all the emotional support you can.

it's really tough.

I won't say like make or break something,

but I think it's just important to

start off, on a good foot with your

in-laws and with your own family.

It can just set the tone for things.

Yeah.

Or it can be something to come back from.

And that's just sucks.

That sucks.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

If you have a bad wedding experience,

it can carry with you forever.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, some of these stories

that were sent to me happened

20, 30, some 40, 50 years ago.

Yeah.

On things.

They'll send me messages

and be like, this happened.

It was like, I don't know, whatever.

It was like a cake was changed last

minute and it was something that they

couldn't eat or, whatever it was.

Or flowers were changed or she was

told she looked fat in her dress.

You know, like there's been so many crazy

things that were sent to me and they're

like, I still remember it and I remember

how I felt and, if someone put them down.

And so I feel like if you start on the,

having that middle ground, like what

you're talking about, and it's funny that

you bring up wedding planner 'cause I had

a wedding planner on once and she's like,

I feel like half the time I'm a therapist.

Yeah.

Literally.

She, she should go to school.

No, actually they are a buffer I

think they're really valuable 'cause

they have to advocate, their job

is what the bride and groom want.

And so I think they can be A really

healthy addition to the planning crew.

yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Oh my gosh.

Okay.

So I thought we would kind of

switch things up a little bit.

Yeah.

Put together some rapid fire

if you're okay with this.

Yeah.

the options are red flag or normal stress.

And if you wanna add a

little bit to it, feel free.

I don't wanna like put you in a

corner or make you say something

that you don't wanna say either.

So, they're just different like scenarios.

And then just say if it's a red flag

or normal stress around what, okay.

Okay.

One partner says, let's

just do what my mom wants.

It's easier that way.

Red flag.

the couple hasn't had a single

conversation about how they'll

split finances after the wedding.

Ooh.

Major red flag.

Yeah.

That's tough.

Yeah.

I feel like that comes up a lot with

stories too, where it's like, this is the

first big event and then sometimes they

expect their parents to pay for everything

and then they go to the next stage and

it's like, but then I didn't realize like.

This happened, or we can't afford this,

or they've never discussed it before.

No, it's tough because you're, you

have these huge decisions that like

only 10 year married couples have the

foundation to make, and you're making them

immediately upon this huge commitment.

That's just tough.

And so those conversations

in general are so important.

Yeah.

Yes.

okay.

The bride's mom says this wedding

is as much mine as it is yours.

Oh.

I mean, I think that's normal.

I think that comes up so much probably.

but yeah.

Or for the bride, that's sad.

That's a

red flag.

Yeah.

one partner wants kids someday

the other doesn't, but they say

they'll figure it out later.

That's a major red flag.

That's not, yeah.

I see that happen so many times.

Really, I've seen it.

I, not a ton in stories, but I've just

seen it like, stories like people posted

like either eventually one changes

their mind and then they, one wants kids

when they both didn't want kids before.

And I'm sure that just like sometimes

happens, but I feel like that was like

one of the biggest things my husband

and I talked about before, getting

married to make sure, yeah, of course,

age.

Well that's a compatibility issue.

Like that's a fixed thing that's not a

dynamic issue, that's a fixed thing and it

can be just a symptom of something deeper.

But the question is like, how

do you resolve things that y'all

are fixed on that are opposite?

even religion, faith

can be part of that too.

Like that you're fixed on these things.

And

you just think you're gonna deal

with it or it's gonna get better.

And that's just, definitely

something to handle on the front end.

Yeah.

Yeah.

the groom refuses to go to premarital

counseling and says it's a waste of time.

that's tough.

me, I'm like, red flag, red flag.

I think that's probably very normal.

I don't know.

Yeah.

I think not being open to counseling

is a very much a red flag.

Yeah.

And I mean, I feel like if they're

having, and you might know this better

from your, your profession than Yeah.

Me just, no, it's okay.

But if they're having the kind of

issues where counseling would come

up before and then she brings it

up and he's like, no, to jump in

knowing they might need some kind of.

Yeah,

exactly.

I mean, it's like if y'all can talk about

anything and you resolve problems, then

saying no to counseling is like, okay.

I mean, 'cause we don't need it to

solve problems, but if it's just like,

no, because I don't wanna talk about

anything and I don't want outside

guidance, that's the red flag of it.

Yeah, yeah, The couple always

avoids hard conversations by

joking or changing the subject.

see, these are tough because

that seems so, that's so normal.

I think for early on in

relationships, people don't really

know how to deal with stuff.

So I think that's normal.

I think that that is definitely

gonna come out in their marriage,

that's gonna be magnified by it.

yeah, that's not an unfixable issue

that I would say that's very normal,

but it's definitely not good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like you can.

Only joke so long before, like,

something's gonna be hard, like curious.

And you have, well,

there, there's something called,

I mean, just to be all nerdy real

quick, there's something called

pseudo hostility, like fake hostility.

It's like, that's what you're

talking about, the joking.

And it is an indicator of suppressed

emotion and an inability to really

resolve conflict and be vulnerable.

So it's like a really unhealthy

dynamic or like, behavior in

general and it's found in families.

That's where the term came from.

so it's joking about real problems as

an indicator of that, but again, it's,

something that's very fixable with a

therapist or with just, this podcast.

yeah, just chatting about it.

Yeah, because I feel like I've

known people before that are just

very, like, that's like their

personality is like the comic relief.

So it's like even when things

are like serious, they like

wanna throw a little like.

Comic in there.

Yeah.

And that's how comedians are born.

a lot of, like, when you hear

deeper stories about comedians,

a lot of times they just have

to laugh to get through things,

literally.

Yeah.

And I mean, it's not an unhealthy

thing when you can do that.

But if you only can do that and you

can't be vulnerable and you can't

talk about your feelings and you

can't receive criticism, for example,

then that's when it becomes an issue.

And that's when that term applies.

It's not just about joking

and being funny, or even

lightening the mood sometimes.

But if you can only do that when

it's tense, you think about.

People that like bust out laughing

at like funerals and stuff.

it's like their Trauma response.

Yeah.

It's just those things

just invite curiosity.

It's not to like pathologize

people or to say, if you do this,

there's something wrong with you.

It's just an indicator of like,

something to be curious about if

you're having issues in relationships

or, if this is a, pattern for you.

Interesting.

Wow.

I'm learning so much.

Oh, okay.

a partner deletes texts from

a parent they know that the

other wouldn't approve of, oh

man, these are so hard.

'cause they seem very normal.

the person would be trying

to protect their partner.

I think people do this with good

intention, but at the same time, I think

that's not a good habit to get into.

In a marriage.

So that's a red flag.

Yeah.

'cause for someone like that, like if

someone's deleting texts, that means

in some way and you can't control

the other, what the parent does, but

in some way they're allowing them to

talk negatively about their partner.

Right.

Right.

Or they're not setting us clear

boundary of like, Hey, if you

talked that way, we're done.

Yeah.

Or we're gonna limit.

Yeah.

No, a hundred percent.

That's right.

But I also, on the other side of the

spectrum, I have, in my experience

with people, there's been way too much

transparency and their partner is like

scarred for life by what the parents said.

Yeah.

So there is like.

Transparency isn't necessarily,

you know, there's nuance here.

It just depends on what they're

saying, but yeah, I think the general,

like the habit of deleting texts is

sketchy and is definitely a red flag.

Mm-hmm.

In a relationship in general.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

You say that I know.

I'm thinking about that now because,

there was a story that a girl sent

me, and this was not about a mean

text necessarily, and actually podcast

and she talked about it, but Oh,

mother-in-law, yeah, she was anonymous.

She turned the camera off.

Uh, so we reacted to her story and then

she was like, maybe we'll have a part two

because I'm going dress shopping with her.

And so I had her come on and kind of

share what happened, but basically she

was demanding to know the location of

their wedding venue, and this was like.

Far from where they lived.

They haven't actually

seen it personally yet.

She's like, well, I just

wanna drive by and go see it.

And they're like, it's a

private property, you can't.

And she's like, we sent you the

location so you can kinda see pictures.

And she goes, well, I delete texts.

And she like went to this whole thing

about how I delete texts, just tell me

the address so I can show up and go.

And she kept pushing, pushing.

It was like a long, crazy story,

but she ended up like cornering

her in the kitchen and was like,

yeah, it was this crazy thing.

It's still ongoing, like they

haven't gotten married yet, but,

oh my goodness.

Yeah.

And so the delete texted made

me think of that conversation

because she just said like.

the mother would delete

texts in her phones and then

claim not to have it anymore.

Claim to not know that

because the text was gone.

That's weird.

Never heard of anything like that.

I know.

I was like, does she work for the

FBI?

Why?

Yeah.

Seriously.

Is she a CIA agent?

Yeah.

So that was, wow.

Interesting.

Yeah.

But that was one where, on her episode

where she came on, she she went

through a lot of therapy herself.

So like they did a good job

of keeping up with boundaries.

And it was where her husband just

had a hard time of like standing

up to his mom because I bet.

And so used to like running the household

and now this new strong female voice

comes in and she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I've never been told no before, so, yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

that's a red flag.

I'll say that.

Like, moms not being used to their adult

children telling them no about things.

That's a red flag for Yeah.

Like when you're, if you're a fiance,

you're looking at your partner and their

parent, and that's the dynamic you see.

those are scary waters to enter into.

that's a scary situation.

And I think their partners feel

that, they like get that sense.

And I think that brings out

their own stress responses too.

because there's a powerlessness

that children feel even when

they're adults with parents.

Parents.

And so that can just make them

really scared and however they

normally respond when they're scared.

So maybe they over control or they.

overcompensate in some ways.

So it can just be tough.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Wow.

Okay.

the bride says she doesn't

want the groom sister in the

wedding and won't explain why

the bride says she doesn't want

the groom sister in the wedding.

Oh.

And she won't explain why.

Yeah.

That's the part of it.

That's the red flag.

Yeah.

They won't explain why.

'cause I feel like you don't

need to have your sibling or your

partner's siblings in the wedding.

I feel like that's a totally,

there should be no pressure to

have anybody in the wedding, but

yeah.

Why won't you explain why?

Yeah, why don't you explain why,

or like, why can't they just be, I

love the idea if that's the case.

if, say you're the bride and you

don't want your groom's sister being a

bridesmaid, but can she be a groomsman?

I don't know.

Do you have the ultimate set?

You know, can't, is there

some gray area here?

Right.

Like if

he, I know.

That's what I think is interesting

too, is like, I mean, I had my.

Husband's sister and

sister-in-law on his side.

sister-in-law on his side.

I dunno if I said that right.

But I mean, it's our sister-in-law,

but in the wedding, 'cause

I'm like close with them.

Yeah.

But like, we have my brother 'cause

they're not super close or anything.

Okay.

But I've seen it always and

that's like a weird thing.

But like, I, I don't know.

It's interesting.

Well, I think this can be an issue.

So say the groom's sister is

rude to the bride or like they

don't get along or whatever.

And so the bride's just like, yeah.

I mean, you're not gonna

be in our wedding party.

But I think that could also be like a

situation where they can come together

where it's like, Hey, I'm uncomfortable

with her on my side of things, going on

my bachelorette or like, and standing

up there, that feels inauthentic to me.

she's your sister, you kind of get

the say in what you want her to be in

our wedding and we can talk about it.

And so do you want her to stand

up with you in a black dress?

is there something, if your parents are

gonna be really upset and embarrassed

by that, like is there something we can

do to get everyone a win-win scenario?

Because what's weird to me too is that

she would have to explain to the groom

almost like My thought is if the bride

and sister didn't get along, the groom

would already know that or know that

there was some kind of weird tension.

So like, let's figure it out together.

But if let's say she secretly like

hated the sister and was like, yeah,

jealous of something, you know, whatever.

Then like that's a red flag

because it's like you're not openly

communicating with your groom.

Like, oh, the sister did this to me.

That's

the issue is like the

not openly communicating.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Okay.

This one's, there's two more.

One person does all the wedding

planning because the other

partner says they don't care.

Is that the most normal thing

I've ever heard about this?

Probably.

but it's a red flag.

I don't know, what do they not care about?

Is that part of the dynamic?

Do they not care in general?

Are they like, I never care

about what we eat, and so the

other person's always responsible

for figuring out what they eat.

is this the dynamic or is this

just like, oh I don't know, some,

like, I don't wanna do girly stuff,

or some stupid stuff like that.

What's the deal about it?

Yeah, because I feel like there's a big

difference between like, oh honey, you're

so good at this stuff, so I don't care.

Like, do you like the

pink or the green butter?

or it's like, I don't care.

the, yeah,

how are they communicating

it because exactly how

are they communicating it?

And all these things seem like

places, things to explore.

is this just this situation

or is this in general?

Or does this bother me?

Does it bother me that they don't care?

Or am I happy they don't care because

I wanted to do it on my own anyway.

You know, like how do you

actually feel about it?

Right.

that's a great point.

these are so nuanced.

Yeah.

Because I've seen relationships before

where the bride is like such a big

planner and so she was like, I got this.

We're good.

Yeah.

And he kind of just was there if

she needed him, but that's it.

He was like, I don't care.

Pick, I will walk in for a wedding.

You want, but then I've seen others

where like the bride was stressed

beyond belief and he went a finger

and you're like, that's where

I'm like, it's your wedding too.

Right.

but I think a lot of times there's those

couples where they just assume like, oh,

it's the woman's job to do all of it.

Yes.

But

I don't know.

And that's again, these things

aren't like inherently bad, but it's

like, how do you feel about them?

Do you want them more involved?

are there things you can do together?

Are there things that they really do

care about or do they just not know?

I think a lot of the time people

don't know what they don't know.

And so you think you're not gonna care

about something, but you really end up

caring about the food, or you really

end up caring about the transportation

from the venue to the reception.

yeah.

is there an open mind there?

For things to evolve as you learn more.

Because I mean, when I planned my

wedding, I didn't know anything.

how are you supposed to know

when you've never done it before?

Exactly.

So

it's a lot.

And I think people don't realize, like,

especially their first time going through

everything and seeing like what they

have to do, they're just like, what?

Yeah, there's so many decisions.

Yeah.

And so all the comparison with social

media and all stuff, it's like you have to

really shut out the noise of like, okay,

do I want, a golden arch because they have

it on Pinterest, or do I want one because

it would look cool for us, like, you know.

Exactly.

Yeah, for sure.

Okay, last one.

A parent constantly criticizes their

child's partner, but the partner just

keeps the peace to avoid conflict.

Yeah.

Major red flag.

First of all, why is a parent criticizing?

I think things can be so backwards.

parents should be there to be

so supportive 'cause they know

they've been through it and

they know how stressful it is.

So it's just crazy to me in general

when parents are adding, they

add stress even though they know

they've been through it themselves.

so I think that's the red flag is

like parents criticizing in general.

That's definitely something

to have a boundary around.

what was the rest of the question?

the partner just keeps the

peace to avoid conflict.

Yeah.

And that's another thing.

Do they always do that?

Do they do that with you?

Do they do that at work?

Do they do that with their friends?

Are they always avoiding conflict?

Because the thing about that

is that it comes out sideways.

it does eventually, people aren't

just doormats, you're human beings

and emotions, it's gonna come out.

or is this a situational thing

where it's just like, you know,

let's just get through this wedding.

I don't even care.

Let's just get through this wedding.

Right.

That's one thing.

So, and it's okay to make mistakes.

things are not irreparable.

if you decide it's not the time to

deal with all these dynamics, then

just make it easy for yourself.

if you need to avoid it, do it, whatever.

I think just doing what

you need to do at the time

Yeah.

Is

how you leave these situations.

not traumatized.

Right.

When they're

tough.

I don't know how I would react to

something like that, but yeah, if it's

something like you live across the country

and you're only gonna see 'em for this

one day and you talk to them, okay,

whatever, just like, we're like, whatever.

But if you see them a lot and they're

constantly putting your partner

down, like, let's, boundaries.

Yeah.

Boundaries.

Because know, if a parent's

criticizing their partner, that can

really make the kid feel undermined.

Like, Hey, you don't trust my decisions.

Like, I wanna hear your feedback, but

all I'm hearing about them is this, and

that's making me not trust your opinion

because they're both good and bad.

Like, they definitely have stuff, but

it feels reflective of me and what

you think about me and my decision.

So yeah, that can be something

important to communicate.

But again, if this isn't the time,

then don't just deal with it later.

Yeah.

All right.

Now let's get to everyone's favorite

part of these episodes, and that's

this week's story submission.

So here we go.

Okay.

It's Blind React.

I've not read it, so, okay.

What we got.

Okay.

You know how people say you don't need

a piece of paper to prove your love?

That was us until life

taught us otherwise.

We met in the mid nineties, in our

early twenties and clicked instantly.

Within a few months, we

were living together.

The next year we experienced a

miscarriage, and not long after

I was pregnant again, our Rainbow

baby was born the following spring.

By the end of that year, we

bought a house together, and

still we had no plans to marry.

We were anti traditional and didn't

think a marriage certificate mattered.

Then everything changed.

In the summer of 2000, my partner was

riding his motorcycle and was hit at

full speed while making a legal turn.

He suffered a traumatic brain injury

and was in a coma for three weeks.

Oh my gosh.

His helmet saved his life, but

it was a long road ahead because

we weren't legally married.

His mother stepped in and told

the doctors she was next of kin.

This is, oh my gosh.

Wow.

Oh my God, this is so bad.

This is terrible.

she explicitly told

them not to speak to me.

this is like something that's

so complicated that I never

would've even thought about.

Wow.

yeah, we just

automatically assume your

partner for that long.

Having kids together, like.

That's your person you like

earned your right?

Yeah.

In all in their eyes too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

she said I understood she was heartbroken,

but I had been his partner for years.

We shared a home, we were

raising a toddler, and yet

I was completely shut out.

Wow.

Oh my gosh.

She even looked me dead in the eye and

said, you're just the mother of his child.

Oh.

This is probably one of the

tragic stories I've read on here.

that sentence has never left me.

Yeah.

A single piece of paper

would've spared me so much pain.

Thankfully we had an incredible nurse

who saw what was really going on.

I showed proof that we lived

together and she let me sneak our

son into the ICU to see his dad.

Mm. So the, the grandma was even

keeping the, son away sounds like,

oh my gosh.

Within four days, he woke up.

I truly believe that

visit made a difference.

The bond between them has

only grown stronger since.

Eventually he came home and

made an incredible recovery.

About 95% of who he was

before the accident.

I didn't tell him what happened

while he was in the hospital.

I just wanted him to heal.

Oh.

So this is interesting 'cause it kind of

relates to what we were talking about,

about like protecting your partner.

Mm-hmm.

But this is like the opposite way.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So she's almost protecting

him from his own mother.

What's her take on that?

cause I am, I'm also wondering how

involved this grandma is in their life.

Yeah.

For

and be like, no, I'm the next of kin.

Yeah, exactly.

My, I have a lot of questions.

I'm like, If they didn't get married,

then there wasn't a wedding and

there wasn't this family event.

This like, I don't know how much

that matters, but like basically

she wasn't necessarily included

in their formal relationship.

And I'm wondering what their relationship

was like before, How involved she

was, how not involved, what her

relationship was like with her son.

so that's what I have just context.

I want context to that.

But you wanna demonize the mother-in-law

in these situations, like it's easy to

say, oh my gosh, what a terrible person.

How could she do this and

disrespect me like this?

And I wonder, again,

that's like zooming out.

Is this a pattern where she like the.

partner doesn't share things

with him to protect him.

And is this just another thing,

part of that, when this is something

that he definitely needs to know?

Mm-hmm.

You know, they definitely

need to figure out together.

Yeah, because I feel like

that would be my thought.

Like I understand her concern

with being like, you know what,

let's just focus on him healing.

But yeah, then I would also be

like, what if something happens?

Like where,

yeah,

he has a stroke.

I don't know.

Just you think like something happens

where like another life altering event.

course you would hope like nothing

happens after that, but like things

happen and then you'd be like,

okay, how can I protect myself

now I wanna talk to him because.

I wanna make sure we're like on the

same page moving forward or something.

Yeah.

Wait, did she say that she

didn't tell him any of this?

Is that what she said?

So there's still a little bit more, but

she said so far, I didn't tell him what

happened while he was in the hospital.

I just wanted him to heal.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Wait.

And then right after it says, so I

didn't read this yet, but once he

was well enough to return to work, we

started making secret wedding plans.

Oh.

Oh, okay.

okay, let's see where this goes.

Okay.

It says, we hosted a backyard

barbecue that December.

A few close friends and family knew it was

more than just a cookout, but most didn't.

Okay.

So they did a surprise, oh my gosh.

Wedding.

Most didn't including his mother.

I, oh wait, his, so his mom didn't know.

Didn't know that it was a secret wedding.

Okay.

I have so many thoughts now because

I'm like, okay, was their relationship

with the mom always bad or if the

mom always made it clear that she did

not like her, because now it's like,

I'm not gonna tell you what happened.

So you talk to your mom,

we're gonna have this wedding.

Oh my gosh.

I didn't even think retaliation

basically, which like,

obviously they're gonna get married

anyway, so I don't want 'em to think I'm

thinking that, but I'm just like, oh.

She's like, you did that to

me while my husband watch

this.

Yeah.

Watch this.

I'll prove you.

How much he's my partner.

or I mean, or, or she

just learned from that.

Like, this woman is not safe for us

to tell anything to, and we need her

in a group of people so she's not

acting crazy that when it's our moment.

That's such a good, that's who.

you can't make this up.

Like you cannot make this up.

It's wild.

This is a wow

story.

Yeah.

I'm like picturing it now.

And that was such a good point about

like being aware of like, okay, how

could she act out if it was just us?

Right.

This way she's gonna maybe,

hopefully be on her best behavior.

' cause certain people like that

aren't gonna put on a show.

I mean, they might, some people might.

Right.

But if they did, there's witnesses now.

Yes,

man.

Like, we're

not the crazy ones.

It's not us.

Yeah, exactly.

Like now you see Yeah.

Yeah.

This is what we're dealing with.

Oh my gosh.

oh, here we go.

Okay.

She had no idea it was a

wedding until the cake came out.

She was livid.

Oh my gosh.

Oh.

A year or so later, we paid off all

of her debts and helped her move out.

Move out.

Wait.

Was the mom living with them?

Did I miss something?

Oh,

because that would be crazy if the

mom was living with them and she

didn't know they were getting married.

Yeah.

if the mom was living with them,

how long was she living with them

for that she then blocked out.

I'm so confused.

Oh my gosh.

Well, because it says best decision

we ever made because they paid

off her debts and helped her move

out, so she was living with them.

Oh wait.

Helped her move out, wait.

Paid off her debts and

helped her move out.

Yeah.

Moved out of where?

That's the question.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

It says our relationship with her

stayed strained for over a decade.

She passed away in 2014, and since then

life has been calm, happy, and drama free.

Now we're planning our 25th wedding

anniversary, and this time it

won't be a surprise to anyone.

Oh my God.

Oh my gosh.

That is

a wild story.

Wow.

I'm feeling a lot of things about that.

Yes.

Well, wait, so backing up, when he got in

that tragic accident, that was like, what?

Probably five years

into their relationship?

Is that like a general timeline?

Probably.

So

they met mid nineties

in the summer of 2000.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So probably like five or so years.

Okay.

They had a toddler

together, living together.

Mm. Yeah, where was the mom and all this?

Like did she live with

Yeah, did she live with them?

so from a family systems point of

view, remember that's my context.

'cause like, I wanna respond

personally to this, cause this is

crazy, but not in a clinical way.

You're not crazy in a clinical way.

Yes.

But it's still just like, what is

this guy, you know, you said this

at the beginning, like when people

are like, oh, where's the fiance?

People submit stories and they're

like, wait, Where's the fiance?

Where's the husband?

Where's the partner?

Yeah.

And

that's what I'm wondering is

what has he just been passive

in this situation and mm-hmm.

I don't know.

I think it's so easy to be, with

these mother-in-laws that do these

things, to be really scared of them.

And let them dominate.

I think there gets to a point where it's

like you, can have boundaries as adults.

you don't have to have her in your, house.

If she's terrorizing you and you're

scared of her and you're laughing at her

behind her back, so I don't know, but.

That sounds,

that's what I'm confused about.

Crazy.

he had a good relationship with

his mom, so he was like, oh,

she's fine, she's harmless.

But then maybe, right.

It wasn't until he was in the ICU that she

became really terrible and was like, like

actually a threat to their relationship.

Yeah, yeah.

Because you know, you hear funerals

and weddings and, all those big life

events bring out the worst in people.

Right?

Right.

And I'm sure there could be a podcast

about funeral things that happen with

families, like being torn apart and money

is, you always hear about stuff like that.

And so that's what makes me think of

like, maybe the mom was playing nice and

then she was like in tragedy brought up.

Right.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Well, oh man, that's so hard.

That is so hard.

I mean real life.

And that's why marriage relationships

are so important to get right.

Because life is crazy and there are

huge things that happen like that,

alter things and alter relationships.

And so having a balance and

having communication and resolving

conflicts so that it all doesn't

come out in this one crisis,

Mm-hmm.

Is

so important because crises happen.

Yeah.

I love that she shared this story 'cause

it's such a unique perspective and I

feel like open people's eyes up too

because it's kind of like a different

perspective of the stories we usually get.

'cause it's usually like the wedding

drama and the planning and stuff.

So this was a very

alternative kind of story.

And I think it's really interesting

'cause you never think like.

in a tragic moment, what's gonna happen?

Or, you know, right.

How would we handle that?

Married or not?

How would we handle that situation?

'cause that can put stress on family.

How is family gonna come in at that point?

well, yeah, and I think it depends.

When I got married, I remember like

a month after we got married and

we're home from and everything and

it's like really hitting you this

commitment and this legal change.

And I was changing my name

and I remember being like, I'm

changing my social security card.

Like, if I am in an accent, you are gonna

be like, you know, who's at my age who

doesn't have experience with hospitals,

you my mom's a nurse and, I just remember

like the gravity of that hitting me, you

know, you just grow up like it's just so

much transition internally and in life.

And you're like, oh my gosh.

Like if I am in a car accident, you

are gonna be making these decisions.

Like this is crazy.

Yeah.

but I agree like what you're

saying just about how the legal

thing like this, it matters.

this person is making these huge

decisions and when health is on the line,

I think that's a time where like hard

boundaries need to be there, mm-hmm.

Or else there's this situation right

where the wife or the, partner Yeah.

there's no clear lines there.

' cause legally did the mom have the right,

or I don't even know what the laws are.

Yeah.

I don't know.

And I don't know what state there, 'cause

I'm sure it differs state to state too.

But it sounds like she probably

had the legality because she

was the mom, but I don't know.

'cause it's like if he's over

18, doesn't that kind of go away?

I don't know how that works.

but I actually heard a crazy story.

I don't even know how long ago it was now.

and I'll change up the story slightly

to protect who they are, but, this

couple was married for a long time.

They were going through a divorce and

while they were going through a divorce,

the man had a traumatic, like, I think

I wanna say brain cancer, brain tumor.

Mm-hmm.

And it turns out that certain

tumors can make you act different

ways or like do different things.

Mm. While that was happening, he

had an affair with her sister.

It was, I know.

It was crazy.

And so while he was in the hospital,

the sister and I, again, I don't know

the legalities or how this worked.

Yeah.

This was like through a grapevine, The

sister was not allowing the ex-wife

to Oh, Father of the children, what?

25 years?

Yeah.

Oh

my

gosh.

And I was just like, this was a long

grapevine, but it was just like, what?

again, I don't know, like the legalities

of that because they were divorced, but

he wasn't with this new person legally.

But I don't know if she was just

there when the injury happened or

they like, did the surgery or what.

Oh my gosh.

those kind of things are just

like, you don't think about that

when you're like, I don't know.

Getting married or like all that stuff.

No, no, you don't.

You definitely don't.

I'm watching, it's funny

we're talking about this too.

'cause I'm rewatching, Grey's Anatomy,

so I'm like seeing all this stuff

in episodes but yeah, it really does

make you think of the legalities.

'cause I think that is what they

make those decisions based on.

Right.

Like the doctors have to know Yeah.

Who's next of kin and

who's formally next of kin.

Right.

Yeah.

Because I know there's been really sad

stories where, a gay couple or something

have been partners for a long time, but

because they weren't legally married,

they refused to let a longtime partner

of someone in the hospital room So crazy.

And I hope that's changed in most cases,

but I'm sure there's gotta be some kind of

like paperwork or something, I don't know.

Mm-hmm.

How that works.

Mm-hmm.

But maybe next I need to have some like.

Lawyer on it should have someone on here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Talking about that.

Is there a lawyer

listening?

okay.

I know we're about at the end

of our time, so I always like to

end this with confessions, weekly

confessions that people send me.

So here's a couple that people sent in.

It says, biggest regret was

having a wedding instead of

eloping like I wanted to.

Mm. And I was told I

would regret it later.

That is so sad.

or it's just sad when people project their

own experiences and you don't realize it's

them projecting and not everyone's truth

and not like a universal truth, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Oh, that's tough.

See, that's why like, these times, you

have to do what you wanna do, I think.

Yeah.

Because they're so big.

Totally.

And I feel like when you tend to

listen to everyone around you,

but yourself, you're gonna end up

regretting it a hundred percent.

Whether it want a big wedding and you

went small or you, don't elope, but

you really wanted to elope because

you're ultimately trying to please

everyone else and you're looking back.

Exactly.

Feel like, what was that for?

Yeah.

And it's like if you do what you

wanna do and it didn't turn out the

way you wanted to, you can learn.

I don't think is as bad as if you

listen to someone else over yourself.

' cause I think when you get married, like

when you go into that stage of life.

And you start your own family,

whether you have kids or not.

Like you're starting your own family, that

you have to get in the habit of making

decisions for your family and for yourself

and putting yourself first in that way.

That's what's best for your family.

Mm-hmm.

Is choosing yourself every

day over everybody else.

obviously considering other people,

but no one knows your family, no one

knows you better than you know you.

Even if you haven't been through something

that other people have been through.

Yeah.

You know, the way you just said

it, I'm like, the wedding is

kind of like the test, kinda like

the precursor into the marriage.

'cause everyone's so

focused on the wedding.

Right.

But it's really the marriage, that counts

I can kind of say that to like, your

clients before, but I just feel like so

many people focus on this big day, right?

The flashing lights and all that, but.

It really is kinda like the precursor

of like, how are we gonna handle stress?

How are we gonna budget

for this big event?

How are all these strong

personalities gonna come together

and how will we deal with it?

Because in our, marriage, there's gonna be

trials and tribulations, there's gonna be

hard times, there's gonna be great times.

and so I feel like that's kinda

like a precursor of are we gonna

listen to everyone else before us?

how are we gonna Well,

yeah, and like I said, like I really

do, when I'm thinking about it like

this, I'm like, People don't, I don't

know It's crazy that this amount of

pressure and this complex of a thing

happens at the very beginning of a

relationship because in life you're never

dealing with this type of thing again.

You know, unless you have children

and there's like, you live on

a compound with your family.

Like there's not this level of pressure,

of personalities of involvement in

your life and in your life decisions

as there is when you're married.

So I feel like that would've been so

helpful for me to understand of just

like, this is kind of a one time thing.

You know, this.

And like if you wanna get pregnant,

whatever the birth of your first

child, like, I feel like those are

kinda the two main first things.

And then after that, people

leave you alone in a way.

And so just to know like if you're

feeling a lot of pressure, you can like

chill because there's nothing like this,

I think other than funerals, you know?

Yes.

other things like that.

But even then, you're not the

center of it a lot of times.

So

yeah.

This is your time for it to be about you.

You can be a little selfish.

And yeah.

Kind of block out the extra

it will be over, you know?

Yes.

But I agree with what you're saying.

Like it totally is a precursor for

things and magnifies your dynamic.

Yes.

A lot of, lot of personalities

and thoughts and opinions

coming in on this, one day.

That's Yeah.

can make or break sometimes.

Yeah.

But do what you want.

Yes.

Do what you want.

this says, mother-in-law shared a video

of Karen's ruining weddings as a joke

and said it was a warning from her words.

I don't know how that.

Mother-in-law shared a video of

Karen's ruining weddings as a

joke and a warning from her words.

Yeah.

So she said it as like a warning.

What?

So basically saying, if you don't do

what I say, I can ruin your wedding.

Oh gosh.

That is so mean.

Did you see there was this

thing that went viral.

Someone just tagged me in on TikTok.

This girl shared a picture or like

a video of all her invitations in

a bucket of dirty water and said,

thanks to my mother-in-law, oh wait,

no, I didn't see that the water was

dirty because it was all the ink.

She already had pre-addressed all

these invitations in envelopes, and

the mother-in-law threw them in water

because they weren't what she wanted, or

she didn't want the wedding to happen.

It was like going viral on TikTok.

And people were like, can

you make a story about this?

And I was like, let me

gather some thoughts.

That's.

Terrible.

Oh my gosh, that is so

awful.

Do you, that is so awful.

Is that someone that just can't

deal with their emotions or can't

communicate, or hasn't been told?

No, maybe.

Yeah.

So the like term is enmeshment.

They're enmeshed, which means

they're fused, like, when it comes to

relationships, there's only one truth.

Like there's right or wrong, and

both people have to see it that way.

Whereas, they need to learn

what's called differentiation.

Like, hey, my kid is their own person.

They're making their own

choices and their own life.

And it doesn't have to be

the same as what I would do.

Mm. Or I

don't have to approve.

They have full autonomy and

agency to do what they need to do.

And so there's definitely a component of

not being able to regulate emotionally.

There's the component of being,

not really having boundaries.

there's a lot.

I mean, not, again, not to pathologize

people and 'cause I don't know all

the context behind these things, but

definitely parents that get upset at

their children's decisions, there is

a level of enmeshment between them.

Interesting.

Wow.

I don't know how some of

these people get through.

I know position, I just can't.

Imagine being treated that way.

Yeah.

awesome.

Okay, well that's all I have for, oh my

gosh, thank you so much for coming on.

It was so great chatting with you

and hearing a different perspective

on some of these things that we see.

Thank you for having me.

This was really fun and different.

just, I talk about this stuff

in such a serious way, and so

this was really light and fun.

I really enjoyed it.

Oh, good.

Thank you again.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, can you tell everyone again

where they can follow you, find

your content, and then what kind

of things you're working on and

what kind of things you share?

Yeah.

you can find me on TikTok, Instagram and

YouTube under the handle codependency.

Kate, KATE.

what am I working on?

I don't know.

I'm just having fun posting and,

just still learning about my

community and what the needs are

and just doing fun things like this.

I did start a podcast,

it's called The Gray Area.

Oh, fun.

Where?

Yeah, where like, so I post a

lot of educational stuff and my

podcast is where I just elaborate.

It's just like long form.

I literally just started it and I am

doing it just by myself and I, I didn't

realize I could yap the way I do.

I've literally like for 45 minutes to

an hour can just talk about something.

I had no idea.

I've always been curious, like

I wonder if I could just go.

how long I would talk.

Yeah.

And anyway, that's on my profile.

You're sign up now?

I'm literally, yeah.

so that's what I'm doing.

Yeah.

Now.

Awesome.

Well, very cool.

I feel like a lot of times our,

content can like cross over, like

you can be like the more, more

serious and educational for Yes.

I like education.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I feel like a lot of people have

que, you know, they hear these stories and

they have questions about it, or, brides

will reach out and be like, this is what

I'm currently dealing with or I can give

advice from a professional standpoint.

I just can say like, this is

what I've seen in these stories.

Yes.

Yeah.

So,

well, and that's valid too, your

experience with these stories.

So.

Not to think that, you have to have

formal training to be able to answer.

But yeah, I'm always happy to provide

the educational component because

there people, from what I've learned,

are shocked to find out these things

have names and these are issues,

you know, I'll post a video about

this and people are like, oh my

gosh, this is my exact situation.

And there's, you know, 10,000 other

people that feel the same way.

it's just so family systems is super

fun to educate people about and it

can be very validating for people

struggling in these situations.

Yeah.

I think that's one of the most

beautiful things about social

media is that we're able to

connect on those things like, yeah.

I saw someone say once like,

oh, my algorithm's spot on.

'cause it'll be like a video about

like someone with like a D, H, D

and anxiety and you're like, oh my

gosh, wait, I have those things.

Wait, I do those things.

Or it just allows you to connect and

see that you're not alone in something

or someone totally in the situation.

And,

it's so valid.

It can be such a relief and so

validating for people that don't

have access to therapy or like

support, extra support like that.

I literally got a message from someone

yesterday from like Gambia Africa.

Wow.

And they're like, yeah, we don't

have access to therapy here, so

I really appreciate your content.

I'm like, oh my God, this is so cool.

I didn't know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

our world's getting more accepting

of therapy and talking about it being

like, Hey, yes, I go to therapy and I,

but like that wasn't always the case.

Right.

And I'm sure you saw too, it

was more of like a hush hush

thing like, oh, I go to therapy.

You are worried about what

people are gonna think about you.

Mm-hmm.

And so I think for those that are

still kind of like scared of therapy

or like they don't know if they wanna

do it, social media's a great way

of opening that door being like, it

really is, wait, this is helpful.

Oh, this is cool.

Yeah.

Wait, I can talk to someone and

like, get empowered or learn

about myself or, yeah.

That's great.

Like be listened to and just

even explore my own thoughts.

Like I just think that therapy all

it is, is just creating space for

you to kind of come out and learn

about yourself, like you said.

So

yeah,

it's great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Love that.

Awesome.

Well thank you again for coming on.

I had a great time chatting with you.

Me too.

Thanks again.

Thanks.