Hi Kate.
Thank you for being here.
Hi, nice to see you.
I'm so excited to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Yes, I'm so excited.
Like I was saying before we started
recording, you came up on my feed
strolling and you were talking
about difficult relationships with
mother-in-laws and daughter-in-laws.
And you talk about so many complicated
relationships in marriage and family.
And so that's why I thought you are
perfect to come on because we see a
lot of these issues, I should say, I
dunno if that's the right term, but
come up in these stories that we read.
And so I thought from a professional
standpoint and we can kind of, you
chat about other stuff as well.
But before I get too into my fangirling
and being really excited about your
work, can you just tell us a little bit
more about yourself and what you do?
Yes, so I'm a licensed marriage and
family therapist, and I also make content
under the handle codependency, Kate.
I'm so passionate about education.
Like you said, these are huge issues
and people don't really talk about
them except venting to their friends.
people don't really understand
the background behind things.
And when I was in school to be a
therapist, I was learning all this stuff.
I was like, oh my gosh,
everyone needs to know this.
Why am I. Learning this
now, this is so important.
And so that's when I started
posting on social media, was in
grad school to purely educate.
And it's just kind of turned
into a thing, especially around,
estrangement specifically, just
because there's so much stuff happening
between marriages and in-laws.
It's so complicated and complex
and no one knows what to do.
And so I just try to zoom out and
educate people on family systems
theory and dynamics so that they
can be more informed, take this
information to their friends and
family, to their own relationships.
Obviously parallel to going
to a therapist themselves.
But, yeah, so that's what I just try
to do with the platform that I have.
Yeah.
No, I think that's so good because
like I was saying, in so many
of these stories, it's like.
Something might happen
completely outta left field.
Like the husband could have a
great relationship with his mom,
great relationship with his fiance,
and the second, they get engaged
or get married, there's a flip.
and so I think a lot of times people
don't know to prepare for that
or like how to prepare for that.
So is this something or you've studied a
lot in your work where it's like there's
a switch because it's like a power shift
and it's like, oh, he has a new family.
Like where does that come from?
Sometimes,
yeah, it's tough.
every situation is different,
but it's also not, you know,
there's definitely themes at play.
What I have seen in my work with clients.
cause it's different, my work with clients
and then a lot of stories I hear online,
there's very different audiences here,
but I've definitely seen this a lot.
I think what happens is, yes, there is
a totally different dynamic at play.
I think what happens is an outsider
coming in, it kind of reveals existing
dysfunction or existing, power imbalances.
Just very complex, nuanced things
that have existed for a long time.
It's all people in this dynamic know, like
say a new husband and his mom, they've
been in this dynamic, his whole life.
it's all he's known, but then his wife
comes into the picture and it kind
of challenges that relationship and.
It shouldn't, in healthy
families, it doesn't.
It's a, new daughter-in-law, for
example, is a welcome addition.
things are already set up to
be successful, again, in these
dysfunctional dynamics when things go
awry, when a new person's introduced.
Yeah.
And I find, and not to
group some, I should say.
Right.
I find a lot of times in the stories,
I feel like the husband or the
partner, the male partner I should
say, in heterosexual relationships.
Yeah.
Seems to be very, I don't wanna say
docile, but he seems to be like passive.
Yeah.
Like more passive.
we don't hear a lot of him in the story.
It's more of like, he's go with the flow.
And so like, I think it's.
He grows up, he's good with
the flow, he pleases, you know,
he is good to his parents.
And then if there's someone comes
in and she's maybe a little more
strong headed or she's not afraid
to like stand up for herself, I find
that's when there's usually like a.
Some that's, there's buffer contention.
Yeah.
are you saying, between
her and his family or, yes.
yeah, if the mom's kinda used to,
the sun being very like, go with the
flow and, I just find a kind common
theme, like when I have people on
here and we react to these stories,
they're like, where's the partner?
Where's the fiance?
You know, you hear like, this
bride rides in and she's like, this
happened, or like, the mother-in-law
cornered me or she yelled at me and
they're like, where's the fiance?
And it's kind of no position.
And that is the question that
is the question I asked too.
Because he's not necessarily in
the middle, but he is the link
between her and his family.
I did a video where I drew this kind of
in a, not a di, it's called a genogram,
where you just kind of draw it and
there's the parents up top, the son below
them, and then she's to the side of him.
You know, like she's not another child
of his parents and they're not totally
separate so roles are very important.
The concept of roles.
And that is the question is
what is the fiance doing here?
What is this dynamic?
There's a lot of reasons, you know, if
you go a little deeper, there's a lot of
reasons why he's that way, and that's kind
of the dynamic shift that has to happen.
He has to step into a different
role and that I guess, a lot of
men I think don't talk about that.
General.
Mm-hmm.
So they just kind of are overwhelmed by
these, women, these strong-willed women.
And, women can get a really bad
rap when the real core issue is a
more passive fiance in that role.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, definitely makes sense.
So one of the biggest things we were
talking about in wedding stories is
like the overbearing mother-in-law,
and it's funny 'cause a number of times
I'll say like, it's a mother-in-law,
people immediately are like, well the
bride's mom is, can be this way too.
And I'm like, well, mother-in-law could
be either the groom or the bride's mom.
It's just Oh yeah.
Whoever's perspective uhhuh.
But so many times people hear
mother-in-law and they just
assume, oh, it's the groom's mom.
but I always like to reiterate that.
Yeah.
So why do you think things like
planning a wedding, I'm sure
it's like high stress levels, but
Yeah.
Bring out this controlling or kind
of boundary pushing behavior on,
the mother's part or parents' part.
Yeah.
Well I think what I have seen recently
is there are very big generational
differences in the concepts of weddings.
I think in the past, mothers in-law
and, grandmothers have planned the
whole thing or, they've waited their
whole lives to do this for their child.
And the daughter, for example,
hasn't been very involved.
Everything's just been picked for
her and it's just done for her.
Mm-hmm.
Whereas now I think
brides wanna be the bride.
They wanna make those decisions and for
her parents to, not just be more in the
passenger seat or the backseat and her
not be in the passenger seat or backseat.
So I think that's one part of it.
And I think another part of it is that
people have this idea of wedding planning
being an amazing thing, and it's so much
fun and it brings everyone together.
It brings out the best in
everyone, and that it's just
not, it's just not the case.
It's kind of one of the first big
family events that happens after, you
know, high school graduation, college,
graduation or big family events.
So it can just bring out
everybody's stress responses.
And people I don't think
are prepared for that.
There's a lot of management.
There's It's a new stage for
the fiances to come together on.
That should be the point is to,
this is kind of their first endeavor
together where they're managing all
these things because the development
stage that they are in as a couple
from the family life cycle point of
view is leaving and cleaving from their
families of origin to come together.
So it's this like detachment
phase and I think that's just
really scary and unknown.
there's in it for parents.
And so it's just a whole
thing that people aren't
prepared
for.
Right.
And it's so complicated.
I'm sure you see it in
your work all the time.
'cause it's like definitely
there's nothing that's black
and white because Right.
I have heard stories where.
the mother-in-law has cried over
an engagement, but yes, maybe
the partner really was terrible
to their son or daughter.
so it's just that's their reaction.
So I wanna make people know too,
like, it's not always the parent
that they can see things too.
Like, okay, yeah, this person's
terrible to my son or daughter.
And they're scared.
Yeah.
And they're
scared.
Yeah, absolutely.
So, it's definitely nuance.
There's so many different, aspects of
that, but for couples that are maybe
going through a difficult relationship
with, in-laws as they kind of move
forward in the next stage, how did you
recommend they set clear boundaries?
whether it's before the wedding or kind
of moving into their new life together
so that there's not like a total blow up.
It's really tough, The stuff is so
hard for people to do on their own.
I think therapists could have a
whole like sector and there might
even be one of like engagement
counseling or like wedding planning
counseling because it's so stressful.
There's so much to manage and it's
really easy for people's stress responses
and kind of lack of emotion regulation
and all that stuff to come out.
And there's so much pressure
and expectations and
personalities to manage that.
I think first of all, meeting, like
having a therapist, having a third
party that is separate from the family.
not necessarily a wedding
planner 'cause they're not
qualified to be doing this stuff.
But like, just I think being on
the same page is the most important
thing in this process, I think.
'cause from my experience too, people
that have been married 10 years.
Have trauma from their engagement
and from their weddings with their
in-laws, with their families.
Just with one partner.
Not stepping up.
Not stepping in, or one
person doing too much.
it can magnify existing dynamic issues.
And so getting married and having a
wedding is not just about the wedding,
it's about starting a healthy dynamic.
and kind of fixing things.
Maybe that, or just getting ahead
of things that you don't foresee, or
just having someone guide you, I think
takes a lot of pressure off figuring
all of that out yourself, so, right.
Yeah.
Because I think a lot of couples
see it as like, oh, it's this
big party, it's gonna be easy.
They don't think about finances
like putting together this big
party where it's like, yes, it's
not unlimited money, first of all.
Yeah.
It's like your first time maybe like
putting money together for something big
or having people that are very opinionated
from different sides coming together
and that can be a stressor and mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Hearing a lot of these stories, I'm
like, I feel so grateful that our
families just got along well and like,
I get along with my mother-in-law.
Great.
And so it's just, difficult when, These
relationships kind of come together
and it's like, okay, you can't make
everybody happy, but how do we do the
best at keeping as much peace as we can.
Yeah.
your perspective too, it's like how
much is keeping the piece too much like,
when are you bending over backwards
too much?
Exactly.
Like when is it no longer about you?
Mm-hmm.
And I think that is what can be really
sad in these situations is like.
if a bride, for example, is used
to keeping the peace, but then
for her wedding, she actually
has all these ideas that she's
wanted and she's used to caving.
And unfortunately, this is the one
situation where like she's shaking
things up and it causes problems.
You know, all her worst fears can
come true in these situations.
so I am of the advocate of a
wedding planner, a therapist, your
bridesmaids, your groomsmen, everyone
like supporting you, enlisting
all the emotional support you can.
it's really tough.
I won't say like make or break something,
but I think it's just important to
start off, on a good foot with your
in-laws and with your own family.
It can just set the tone for things.
Yeah.
Or it can be something to come back from.
And that's just sucks.
That sucks.
Oh, for sure.
Yeah.
If you have a bad wedding experience,
it can carry with you forever.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, some of these stories
that were sent to me happened
20, 30, some 40, 50 years ago.
Yeah.
On things.
They'll send me messages
and be like, this happened.
It was like, I don't know, whatever.
It was like a cake was changed last
minute and it was something that they
couldn't eat or, whatever it was.
Or flowers were changed or she was
told she looked fat in her dress.
You know, like there's been so many crazy
things that were sent to me and they're
like, I still remember it and I remember
how I felt and, if someone put them down.
And so I feel like if you start on the,
having that middle ground, like what
you're talking about, and it's funny that
you bring up wedding planner 'cause I had
a wedding planner on once and she's like,
I feel like half the time I'm a therapist.
Yeah.
Literally.
She, she should go to school.
No, actually they are a buffer I
think they're really valuable 'cause
they have to advocate, their job
is what the bride and groom want.
And so I think they can be A really
healthy addition to the planning crew.
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
So I thought we would kind of
switch things up a little bit.
Yeah.
Put together some rapid fire
if you're okay with this.
Yeah.
the options are red flag or normal stress.
And if you wanna add a
little bit to it, feel free.
I don't wanna like put you in a
corner or make you say something
that you don't wanna say either.
So, they're just different like scenarios.
And then just say if it's a red flag
or normal stress around what, okay.
Okay.
One partner says, let's
just do what my mom wants.
It's easier that way.
Red flag.
the couple hasn't had a single
conversation about how they'll
split finances after the wedding.
Ooh.
Major red flag.
Yeah.
That's tough.
Yeah.
I feel like that comes up a lot with
stories too, where it's like, this is the
first big event and then sometimes they
expect their parents to pay for everything
and then they go to the next stage and
it's like, but then I didn't realize like.
This happened, or we can't afford this,
or they've never discussed it before.
No, it's tough because you're, you
have these huge decisions that like
only 10 year married couples have the
foundation to make, and you're making them
immediately upon this huge commitment.
That's just tough.
And so those conversations
in general are so important.
Yeah.
Yes.
okay.
The bride's mom says this wedding
is as much mine as it is yours.
Oh.
I mean, I think that's normal.
I think that comes up so much probably.
but yeah.
Or for the bride, that's sad.
That's a
red flag.
Yeah.
one partner wants kids someday
the other doesn't, but they say
they'll figure it out later.
That's a major red flag.
That's not, yeah.
I see that happen so many times.
Really, I've seen it.
I, not a ton in stories, but I've just
seen it like, stories like people posted
like either eventually one changes
their mind and then they, one wants kids
when they both didn't want kids before.
And I'm sure that just like sometimes
happens, but I feel like that was like
one of the biggest things my husband
and I talked about before, getting
married to make sure, yeah, of course,
age.
Well that's a compatibility issue.
Like that's a fixed thing that's not a
dynamic issue, that's a fixed thing and it
can be just a symptom of something deeper.
But the question is like, how
do you resolve things that y'all
are fixed on that are opposite?
even religion, faith
can be part of that too.
Like that you're fixed on these things.
And
you just think you're gonna deal
with it or it's gonna get better.
And that's just, definitely
something to handle on the front end.
Yeah.
the groom refuses to go to premarital
counseling and says it's a waste of time.
that's tough.
me, I'm like, red flag, red flag.
I think that's probably very normal.
I don't know.
Yeah.
I think not being open to counseling
is a very much a red flag.
Yeah.
And I mean, I feel like if they're
having, and you might know this better
from your, your profession than Yeah.
Me just, no, it's okay.
But if they're having the kind of
issues where counseling would come
up before and then she brings it
up and he's like, no, to jump in
knowing they might need some kind of.
Yeah,
exactly.
I mean, it's like if y'all can talk about
anything and you resolve problems, then
saying no to counseling is like, okay.
I mean, 'cause we don't need it to
solve problems, but if it's just like,
no, because I don't wanna talk about
anything and I don't want outside
guidance, that's the red flag of it.
Yeah, yeah, The couple always
avoids hard conversations by
joking or changing the subject.
see, these are tough because
that seems so, that's so normal.
I think for early on in
relationships, people don't really
know how to deal with stuff.
So I think that's normal.
I think that that is definitely
gonna come out in their marriage,
that's gonna be magnified by it.
yeah, that's not an unfixable issue
that I would say that's very normal,
but it's definitely not good.
Yeah.
I feel like you can.
Only joke so long before, like,
something's gonna be hard, like curious.
And you have, well,
there, there's something called,
I mean, just to be all nerdy real
quick, there's something called
pseudo hostility, like fake hostility.
It's like, that's what you're
talking about, the joking.
And it is an indicator of suppressed
emotion and an inability to really
resolve conflict and be vulnerable.
So it's like a really unhealthy
dynamic or like, behavior in
general and it's found in families.
That's where the term came from.
so it's joking about real problems as
an indicator of that, but again, it's,
something that's very fixable with a
therapist or with just, this podcast.
yeah, just chatting about it.
Yeah, because I feel like I've
known people before that are just
very, like, that's like their
personality is like the comic relief.
So it's like even when things
are like serious, they like
wanna throw a little like.
Comic in there.
Yeah.
And that's how comedians are born.
a lot of, like, when you hear
deeper stories about comedians,
a lot of times they just have
to laugh to get through things,
literally.
Yeah.
And I mean, it's not an unhealthy
thing when you can do that.
But if you only can do that and you
can't be vulnerable and you can't
talk about your feelings and you
can't receive criticism, for example,
then that's when it becomes an issue.
And that's when that term applies.
It's not just about joking
and being funny, or even
lightening the mood sometimes.
But if you can only do that when
it's tense, you think about.
People that like bust out laughing
at like funerals and stuff.
it's like their Trauma response.
Yeah.
It's just those things
just invite curiosity.
It's not to like pathologize
people or to say, if you do this,
there's something wrong with you.
It's just an indicator of like,
something to be curious about if
you're having issues in relationships
or, if this is a, pattern for you.
Interesting.
Wow.
I'm learning so much.
Oh, okay.
a partner deletes texts from
a parent they know that the
other wouldn't approve of, oh
man, these are so hard.
'cause they seem very normal.
the person would be trying
to protect their partner.
I think people do this with good
intention, but at the same time, I think
that's not a good habit to get into.
In a marriage.
So that's a red flag.
Yeah.
'cause for someone like that, like if
someone's deleting texts, that means
in some way and you can't control
the other, what the parent does, but
in some way they're allowing them to
talk negatively about their partner.
Right.
Or they're not setting us clear
boundary of like, Hey, if you
talked that way, we're done.
Yeah.
Or we're gonna limit.
Yeah.
No, a hundred percent.
That's right.
But I also, on the other side of the
spectrum, I have, in my experience
with people, there's been way too much
transparency and their partner is like
scarred for life by what the parents said.
Yeah.
So there is like.
Transparency isn't necessarily,
you know, there's nuance here.
It just depends on what they're
saying, but yeah, I think the general,
like the habit of deleting texts is
sketchy and is definitely a red flag.
Mm-hmm.
In a relationship in general.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
You say that I know.
I'm thinking about that now because,
there was a story that a girl sent
me, and this was not about a mean
text necessarily, and actually podcast
and she talked about it, but Oh,
mother-in-law, yeah, she was anonymous.
She turned the camera off.
Uh, so we reacted to her story and then
she was like, maybe we'll have a part two
because I'm going dress shopping with her.
And so I had her come on and kind of
share what happened, but basically she
was demanding to know the location of
their wedding venue, and this was like.
Far from where they lived.
They haven't actually
seen it personally yet.
She's like, well, I just
wanna drive by and go see it.
And they're like, it's a
private property, you can't.
And she's like, we sent you the
location so you can kinda see pictures.
And she goes, well, I delete texts.
And she like went to this whole thing
about how I delete texts, just tell me
the address so I can show up and go.
And she kept pushing, pushing.
It was like a long, crazy story,
but she ended up like cornering
her in the kitchen and was like,
yeah, it was this crazy thing.
It's still ongoing, like they
haven't gotten married yet, but,
oh my goodness.
Yeah.
And so the delete texted made
me think of that conversation
because she just said like.
the mother would delete
texts in her phones and then
claim not to have it anymore.
Claim to not know that
because the text was gone.
That's weird.
Never heard of anything like that.
I know.
I was like, does she work for the
FBI?
Why?
Yeah.
Seriously.
Is she a CIA agent?
Yeah.
So that was, wow.
Interesting.
Yeah.
But that was one where, on her episode
where she came on, she she went
through a lot of therapy herself.
So like they did a good job
of keeping up with boundaries.
And it was where her husband just
had a hard time of like standing
up to his mom because I bet.
And so used to like running the household
and now this new strong female voice
comes in and she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I've never been told no before, so, yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
that's a red flag.
I'll say that.
Like, moms not being used to their adult
children telling them no about things.
That's a red flag for Yeah.
Like when you're, if you're a fiance,
you're looking at your partner and their
parent, and that's the dynamic you see.
those are scary waters to enter into.
that's a scary situation.
And I think their partners feel
that, they like get that sense.
And I think that brings out
their own stress responses too.
because there's a powerlessness
that children feel even when
they're adults with parents.
Parents.
And so that can just make them
really scared and however they
normally respond when they're scared.
So maybe they over control or they.
overcompensate in some ways.
So it can just be tough.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Wow.
Okay.
the bride says she doesn't
want the groom sister in the
wedding and won't explain why
the bride says she doesn't want
the groom sister in the wedding.
Oh.
And she won't explain why.
Yeah.
That's the part of it.
That's the red flag.
Yeah.
They won't explain why.
'cause I feel like you don't
need to have your sibling or your
partner's siblings in the wedding.
I feel like that's a totally,
there should be no pressure to
have anybody in the wedding, but
yeah.
Why won't you explain why?
Yeah, why don't you explain why,
or like, why can't they just be, I
love the idea if that's the case.
if, say you're the bride and you
don't want your groom's sister being a
bridesmaid, but can she be a groomsman?
I don't know.
Do you have the ultimate set?
You know, can't, is there
some gray area here?
Right.
Like if
he, I know.
That's what I think is interesting
too, is like, I mean, I had my.
Husband's sister and
sister-in-law on his side.
I dunno if I said that right.
But I mean, it's our sister-in-law,
but in the wedding, 'cause
I'm like close with them.
Yeah.
But like, we have my brother 'cause
they're not super close or anything.
Okay.
But I've seen it always and
that's like a weird thing.
But like, I, I don't know.
It's interesting.
Well, I think this can be an issue.
So say the groom's sister is
rude to the bride or like they
don't get along or whatever.
And so the bride's just like, yeah.
I mean, you're not gonna
be in our wedding party.
But I think that could also be like a
situation where they can come together
where it's like, Hey, I'm uncomfortable
with her on my side of things, going on
my bachelorette or like, and standing
up there, that feels inauthentic to me.
she's your sister, you kind of get
the say in what you want her to be in
our wedding and we can talk about it.
And so do you want her to stand
up with you in a black dress?
is there something, if your parents are
gonna be really upset and embarrassed
by that, like is there something we can
do to get everyone a win-win scenario?
Because what's weird to me too is that
she would have to explain to the groom
almost like My thought is if the bride
and sister didn't get along, the groom
would already know that or know that
there was some kind of weird tension.
So like, let's figure it out together.
But if let's say she secretly like
hated the sister and was like, yeah,
jealous of something, you know, whatever.
Then like that's a red flag
because it's like you're not openly
communicating with your groom.
Like, oh, the sister did this to me.
That's
the issue is like the
not openly communicating.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Okay.
This one's, there's two more.
One person does all the wedding
planning because the other
partner says they don't care.
Is that the most normal thing
I've ever heard about this?
Probably.
but it's a red flag.
I don't know, what do they not care about?
Is that part of the dynamic?
Do they not care in general?
Are they like, I never care
about what we eat, and so the
other person's always responsible
for figuring out what they eat.
is this the dynamic or is this
just like, oh I don't know, some,
like, I don't wanna do girly stuff,
or some stupid stuff like that.
What's the deal about it?
Yeah, because I feel like there's a big
difference between like, oh honey, you're
so good at this stuff, so I don't care.
Like, do you like the
pink or the green butter?
or it's like, I don't care.
the, yeah,
how are they communicating
it because exactly how
are they communicating it?
And all these things seem like
places, things to explore.
is this just this situation
or is this in general?
Or does this bother me?
Does it bother me that they don't care?
Or am I happy they don't care because
I wanted to do it on my own anyway.
You know, like how do you
actually feel about it?
Right.
that's a great point.
these are so nuanced.
Yeah.
Because I've seen relationships before
where the bride is like such a big
planner and so she was like, I got this.
We're good.
Yeah.
And he kind of just was there if
she needed him, but that's it.
He was like, I don't care.
Pick, I will walk in for a wedding.
You want, but then I've seen others
where like the bride was stressed
beyond belief and he went a finger
and you're like, that's where
I'm like, it's your wedding too.
Right.
but I think a lot of times there's those
couples where they just assume like, oh,
it's the woman's job to do all of it.
Yes.
But
I don't know.
And that's again, these things
aren't like inherently bad, but it's
like, how do you feel about them?
Do you want them more involved?
are there things you can do together?
Are there things that they really do
care about or do they just not know?
I think a lot of the time people
don't know what they don't know.
And so you think you're not gonna care
about something, but you really end up
caring about the food, or you really
end up caring about the transportation
from the venue to the reception.
yeah.
is there an open mind there?
For things to evolve as you learn more.
Because I mean, when I planned my
wedding, I didn't know anything.
how are you supposed to know
when you've never done it before?
Exactly.
So
it's a lot.
And I think people don't realize, like,
especially their first time going through
everything and seeing like what they
have to do, they're just like, what?
Yeah, there's so many decisions.
Yeah.
And so all the comparison with social
media and all stuff, it's like you have to
really shut out the noise of like, okay,
do I want, a golden arch because they have
it on Pinterest, or do I want one because
it would look cool for us, like, you know.
Exactly.
Yeah, for sure.
Okay, last one.
A parent constantly criticizes their
child's partner, but the partner just
keeps the peace to avoid conflict.
Yeah.
Major red flag.
First of all, why is a parent criticizing?
I think things can be so backwards.
parents should be there to be
so supportive 'cause they know
they've been through it and
they know how stressful it is.
So it's just crazy to me in general
when parents are adding, they
add stress even though they know
they've been through it themselves.
so I think that's the red flag is
like parents criticizing in general.
That's definitely something
to have a boundary around.
what was the rest of the question?
the partner just keeps the
peace to avoid conflict.
Yeah.
And that's another thing.
Do they always do that?
Do they do that with you?
Do they do that at work?
Do they do that with their friends?
Are they always avoiding conflict?
Because the thing about that
is that it comes out sideways.
it does eventually, people aren't
just doormats, you're human beings
and emotions, it's gonna come out.
or is this a situational thing
where it's just like, you know,
let's just get through this wedding.
I don't even care.
Let's just get through this wedding.
Right.
That's one thing.
So, and it's okay to make mistakes.
things are not irreparable.
if you decide it's not the time to
deal with all these dynamics, then
just make it easy for yourself.
if you need to avoid it, do it, whatever.
I think just doing what
you need to do at the time
Yeah.
Is
how you leave these situations.
not traumatized.
Right.
When they're
tough.
I don't know how I would react to
something like that, but yeah, if it's
something like you live across the country
and you're only gonna see 'em for this
one day and you talk to them, okay,
whatever, just like, we're like, whatever.
But if you see them a lot and they're
constantly putting your partner
down, like, let's, boundaries.
Yeah.
Boundaries.
Because know, if a parent's
criticizing their partner, that can
really make the kid feel undermined.
Like, Hey, you don't trust my decisions.
Like, I wanna hear your feedback, but
all I'm hearing about them is this, and
that's making me not trust your opinion
because they're both good and bad.
Like, they definitely have stuff, but
it feels reflective of me and what
you think about me and my decision.
So yeah, that can be something
important to communicate.
But again, if this isn't the time,
then don't just deal with it later.
Yeah.
All right.
Now let's get to everyone's favorite
part of these episodes, and that's
this week's story submission.
So here we go.
Okay.
It's Blind React.
I've not read it, so, okay.
What we got.
Okay.
You know how people say you don't need
a piece of paper to prove your love?
That was us until life
taught us otherwise.
We met in the mid nineties, in our
early twenties and clicked instantly.
Within a few months, we
were living together.
The next year we experienced a
miscarriage, and not long after
I was pregnant again, our Rainbow
baby was born the following spring.
By the end of that year, we
bought a house together, and
still we had no plans to marry.
We were anti traditional and didn't
think a marriage certificate mattered.
Then everything changed.
In the summer of 2000, my partner was
riding his motorcycle and was hit at
full speed while making a legal turn.
He suffered a traumatic brain injury
and was in a coma for three weeks.
Oh my gosh.
His helmet saved his life, but
it was a long road ahead because
we weren't legally married.
His mother stepped in and told
the doctors she was next of kin.
This is, oh my gosh.
Wow.
Oh my God, this is so bad.
This is terrible.
she explicitly told
them not to speak to me.
this is like something that's
so complicated that I never
would've even thought about.
Wow.
yeah, we just
automatically assume your
partner for that long.
Having kids together, like.
That's your person you like
earned your right?
Yeah.
In all in their eyes too.
Yeah.
she said I understood she was heartbroken,
but I had been his partner for years.
We shared a home, we were
raising a toddler, and yet
I was completely shut out.
Wow.
Oh my gosh.
She even looked me dead in the eye and
said, you're just the mother of his child.
Oh.
This is probably one of the
tragic stories I've read on here.
that sentence has never left me.
Yeah.
A single piece of paper
would've spared me so much pain.
Thankfully we had an incredible nurse
who saw what was really going on.
I showed proof that we lived
together and she let me sneak our
son into the ICU to see his dad.
Mm. So the, the grandma was even
keeping the, son away sounds like,
oh my gosh.
Within four days, he woke up.
I truly believe that
visit made a difference.
The bond between them has
only grown stronger since.
Eventually he came home and
made an incredible recovery.
About 95% of who he was
before the accident.
I didn't tell him what happened
while he was in the hospital.
I just wanted him to heal.
Oh.
So this is interesting 'cause it kind of
relates to what we were talking about,
about like protecting your partner.
Mm-hmm.
But this is like the opposite way.
Mm-hmm.
So she's almost protecting
him from his own mother.
What's her take on that?
cause I am, I'm also wondering how
involved this grandma is in their life.
Yeah.
For
and be like, no, I'm the next of kin.
Yeah, exactly.
My, I have a lot of questions.
I'm like, If they didn't get married,
then there wasn't a wedding and
there wasn't this family event.
This like, I don't know how much
that matters, but like basically
she wasn't necessarily included
in their formal relationship.
And I'm wondering what their relationship
was like before, How involved she
was, how not involved, what her
relationship was like with her son.
so that's what I have just context.
I want context to that.
But you wanna demonize the mother-in-law
in these situations, like it's easy to
say, oh my gosh, what a terrible person.
How could she do this and
disrespect me like this?
And I wonder, again,
that's like zooming out.
Is this a pattern where she like the.
partner doesn't share things
with him to protect him.
And is this just another thing,
part of that, when this is something
that he definitely needs to know?
Mm-hmm.
You know, they definitely
need to figure out together.
Yeah, because I feel like
that would be my thought.
Like I understand her concern
with being like, you know what,
let's just focus on him healing.
But yeah, then I would also be
like, what if something happens?
Like where,
yeah,
he has a stroke.
I don't know.
Just you think like something happens
where like another life altering event.
course you would hope like nothing
happens after that, but like things
happen and then you'd be like,
okay, how can I protect myself
now I wanna talk to him because.
I wanna make sure we're like on the
same page moving forward or something.
Yeah.
Wait, did she say that she
didn't tell him any of this?
Is that what she said?
So there's still a little bit more, but
she said so far, I didn't tell him what
happened while he was in the hospital.
I just wanted him to heal.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Wait.
And then right after it says, so I
didn't read this yet, but once he
was well enough to return to work, we
started making secret wedding plans.
Oh.
Oh, okay.
okay, let's see where this goes.
Okay.
It says, we hosted a backyard
barbecue that December.
A few close friends and family knew it was
more than just a cookout, but most didn't.
Okay.
So they did a surprise, oh my gosh.
Wedding.
Most didn't including his mother.
I, oh wait, his, so his mom didn't know.
Didn't know that it was a secret wedding.
Okay.
I have so many thoughts now because
I'm like, okay, was their relationship
with the mom always bad or if the
mom always made it clear that she did
not like her, because now it's like,
I'm not gonna tell you what happened.
So you talk to your mom,
we're gonna have this wedding.
Oh my gosh.
I didn't even think retaliation
basically, which like,
obviously they're gonna get married
anyway, so I don't want 'em to think I'm
thinking that, but I'm just like, oh.
She's like, you did that to
me while my husband watch
this.
Yeah.
Watch this.
I'll prove you.
How much he's my partner.
or I mean, or, or she
just learned from that.
Like, this woman is not safe for us
to tell anything to, and we need her
in a group of people so she's not
acting crazy that when it's our moment.
That's such a good, that's who.
you can't make this up.
Like you cannot make this up.
It's wild.
This is a wow
story.
Yeah.
I'm like picturing it now.
And that was such a good point about
like being aware of like, okay, how
could she act out if it was just us?
Right.
This way she's gonna maybe,
hopefully be on her best behavior.
' cause certain people like that
aren't gonna put on a show.
I mean, they might, some people might.
Right.
But if they did, there's witnesses now.
Yes,
man.
Like, we're
not the crazy ones.
It's not us.
Yeah, exactly.
Like now you see Yeah.
Yeah.
This is what we're dealing with.
Oh my gosh.
oh, here we go.
Okay.
She had no idea it was a
wedding until the cake came out.
She was livid.
Oh my gosh.
Oh.
A year or so later, we paid off all
of her debts and helped her move out.
Move out.
Wait.
Was the mom living with them?
Did I miss something?
Oh,
because that would be crazy if the
mom was living with them and she
didn't know they were getting married.
Yeah.
if the mom was living with them,
how long was she living with them
for that she then blocked out.
I'm so confused.
Oh my gosh.
Well, because it says best decision
we ever made because they paid
off her debts and helped her move
out, so she was living with them.
Oh wait.
Helped her move out, wait.
Paid off her debts and
helped her move out.
Yeah.
Moved out of where?
That's the question.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
It says our relationship with her
stayed strained for over a decade.
She passed away in 2014, and since then
life has been calm, happy, and drama free.
Now we're planning our 25th wedding
anniversary, and this time it
won't be a surprise to anyone.
Oh my God.
Oh my gosh.
That is
a wild story.
Wow.
I'm feeling a lot of things about that.
Yes.
Well, wait, so backing up, when he got in
that tragic accident, that was like, what?
Probably five years
into their relationship?
Is that like a general timeline?
Probably.
So
they met mid nineties
in the summer of 2000.
Yeah.
So probably like five or so years.
Okay.
They had a toddler
together, living together.
Mm. Yeah, where was the mom and all this?
Like did she live with
Yeah, did she live with them?
so from a family systems point of
view, remember that's my context.
'cause like, I wanna respond
personally to this, cause this is
crazy, but not in a clinical way.
You're not crazy in a clinical way.
Yes.
But it's still just like, what is
this guy, you know, you said this
at the beginning, like when people
are like, oh, where's the fiance?
People submit stories and they're
like, wait, Where's the fiance?
Where's the husband?
Where's the partner?
Yeah.
And
that's what I'm wondering is
what has he just been passive
in this situation and mm-hmm.
I don't know.
I think it's so easy to be, with
these mother-in-laws that do these
things, to be really scared of them.
And let them dominate.
I think there gets to a point where it's
like you, can have boundaries as adults.
you don't have to have her in your, house.
If she's terrorizing you and you're
scared of her and you're laughing at her
behind her back, so I don't know, but.
That sounds,
that's what I'm confused about.
Crazy.
he had a good relationship with
his mom, so he was like, oh,
she's fine, she's harmless.
But then maybe, right.
It wasn't until he was in the ICU that she
became really terrible and was like, like
actually a threat to their relationship.
Yeah, yeah.
Because you know, you hear funerals
and weddings and, all those big life
events bring out the worst in people.
Right?
Right.
And I'm sure there could be a podcast
about funeral things that happen with
families, like being torn apart and money
is, you always hear about stuff like that.
And so that's what makes me think of
like, maybe the mom was playing nice and
then she was like in tragedy brought up.
Right.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Well, oh man, that's so hard.
That is so hard.
I mean real life.
And that's why marriage relationships
are so important to get right.
Because life is crazy and there are
huge things that happen like that,
alter things and alter relationships.
And so having a balance and
having communication and resolving
conflicts so that it all doesn't
come out in this one crisis,
Mm-hmm.
Is
so important because crises happen.
Yeah.
I love that she shared this story 'cause
it's such a unique perspective and I
feel like open people's eyes up too
because it's kind of like a different
perspective of the stories we usually get.
'cause it's usually like the wedding
drama and the planning and stuff.
So this was a very
alternative kind of story.
And I think it's really interesting
'cause you never think like.
in a tragic moment, what's gonna happen?
Or, you know, right.
How would we handle that?
Married or not?
How would we handle that situation?
'cause that can put stress on family.
How is family gonna come in at that point?
well, yeah, and I think it depends.
When I got married, I remember like
a month after we got married and
we're home from and everything and
it's like really hitting you this
commitment and this legal change.
And I was changing my name
and I remember being like, I'm
changing my social security card.
Like, if I am in an accent, you are gonna
be like, you know, who's at my age who
doesn't have experience with hospitals,
you my mom's a nurse and, I just remember
like the gravity of that hitting me, you
know, you just grow up like it's just so
much transition internally and in life.
And you're like, oh my gosh.
Like if I am in a car accident, you
are gonna be making these decisions.
Like this is crazy.
Yeah.
but I agree like what you're
saying just about how the legal
thing like this, it matters.
this person is making these huge
decisions and when health is on the line,
I think that's a time where like hard
boundaries need to be there, mm-hmm.
Or else there's this situation right
where the wife or the, partner Yeah.
there's no clear lines there.
' cause legally did the mom have the right,
or I don't even know what the laws are.
Yeah.
I don't know.
And I don't know what state there, 'cause
I'm sure it differs state to state too.
But it sounds like she probably
had the legality because she
was the mom, but I don't know.
'cause it's like if he's over
18, doesn't that kind of go away?
I don't know how that works.
but I actually heard a crazy story.
I don't even know how long ago it was now.
and I'll change up the story slightly
to protect who they are, but, this
couple was married for a long time.
They were going through a divorce and
while they were going through a divorce,
the man had a traumatic, like, I think
I wanna say brain cancer, brain tumor.
Mm-hmm.
And it turns out that certain
tumors can make you act different
ways or like do different things.
Mm. While that was happening, he
had an affair with her sister.
It was, I know.
It was crazy.
And so while he was in the hospital,
the sister and I, again, I don't know
the legalities or how this worked.
Yeah.
This was like through a grapevine, The
sister was not allowing the ex-wife
to Oh, Father of the children, what?
25 years?
Yeah.
Oh
my
gosh.
And I was just like, this was a long
grapevine, but it was just like, what?
again, I don't know, like the legalities
of that because they were divorced, but
he wasn't with this new person legally.
But I don't know if she was just
there when the injury happened or
they like, did the surgery or what.
Oh my gosh.
those kind of things are just
like, you don't think about that
when you're like, I don't know.
Getting married or like all that stuff.
No, no, you don't.
You definitely don't.
I'm watching, it's funny
we're talking about this too.
'cause I'm rewatching, Grey's Anatomy,
so I'm like seeing all this stuff
in episodes but yeah, it really does
make you think of the legalities.
'cause I think that is what they
make those decisions based on.
Right.
Like the doctors have to know Yeah.
Who's next of kin and
who's formally next of kin.
Right.
Yeah.
Because I know there's been really sad
stories where, a gay couple or something
have been partners for a long time, but
because they weren't legally married,
they refused to let a longtime partner
of someone in the hospital room So crazy.
And I hope that's changed in most cases,
but I'm sure there's gotta be some kind of
like paperwork or something, I don't know.
Mm-hmm.
How that works.
Mm-hmm.
But maybe next I need to have some like.
Lawyer on it should have someone on here.
Yeah.
Talking about that.
Is there a lawyer
listening?
okay.
I know we're about at the end
of our time, so I always like to
end this with confessions, weekly
confessions that people send me.
So here's a couple that people sent in.
It says, biggest regret was
having a wedding instead of
eloping like I wanted to.
Mm. And I was told I
would regret it later.
That is so sad.
or it's just sad when people project their
own experiences and you don't realize it's
them projecting and not everyone's truth
and not like a universal truth, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Oh, that's tough.
See, that's why like, these times, you
have to do what you wanna do, I think.
Yeah.
Because they're so big.
Totally.
And I feel like when you tend to
listen to everyone around you,
but yourself, you're gonna end up
regretting it a hundred percent.
Whether it want a big wedding and you
went small or you, don't elope, but
you really wanted to elope because
you're ultimately trying to please
everyone else and you're looking back.
Exactly.
Feel like, what was that for?
Yeah.
And it's like if you do what you
wanna do and it didn't turn out the
way you wanted to, you can learn.
I don't think is as bad as if you
listen to someone else over yourself.
' cause I think when you get married, like
when you go into that stage of life.
And you start your own family,
whether you have kids or not.
Like you're starting your own family, that
you have to get in the habit of making
decisions for your family and for yourself
and putting yourself first in that way.
That's what's best for your family.
Mm-hmm.
Is choosing yourself every
day over everybody else.
obviously considering other people,
but no one knows your family, no one
knows you better than you know you.
Even if you haven't been through something
that other people have been through.
Yeah.
You know, the way you just said
it, I'm like, the wedding is
kind of like the test, kinda like
the precursor into the marriage.
'cause everyone's so
focused on the wedding.
Right.
But it's really the marriage, that counts
I can kind of say that to like, your
clients before, but I just feel like so
many people focus on this big day, right?
The flashing lights and all that, but.
It really is kinda like the precursor
of like, how are we gonna handle stress?
How are we gonna budget
for this big event?
How are all these strong
personalities gonna come together
and how will we deal with it?
Because in our, marriage, there's gonna be
trials and tribulations, there's gonna be
hard times, there's gonna be great times.
and so I feel like that's kinda
like a precursor of are we gonna
listen to everyone else before us?
how are we gonna Well,
yeah, and like I said, like I really
do, when I'm thinking about it like
this, I'm like, People don't, I don't
know It's crazy that this amount of
pressure and this complex of a thing
happens at the very beginning of a
relationship because in life you're never
dealing with this type of thing again.
You know, unless you have children
and there's like, you live on
a compound with your family.
Like there's not this level of pressure,
of personalities of involvement in
your life and in your life decisions
as there is when you're married.
So I feel like that would've been so
helpful for me to understand of just
like, this is kind of a one time thing.
You know, this.
And like if you wanna get pregnant,
whatever the birth of your first
child, like, I feel like those are
kinda the two main first things.
And then after that, people
leave you alone in a way.
And so just to know like if you're
feeling a lot of pressure, you can like
chill because there's nothing like this,
I think other than funerals, you know?
Yes.
other things like that.
But even then, you're not the
center of it a lot of times.
So
yeah.
This is your time for it to be about you.
You can be a little selfish.
And yeah.
Kind of block out the extra
it will be over, you know?
Yes.
But I agree with what you're saying.
Like it totally is a precursor for
things and magnifies your dynamic.
Yes.
A lot of, lot of personalities
and thoughts and opinions
coming in on this, one day.
That's Yeah.
can make or break sometimes.
Yeah.
But do what you want.
Yes.
Do what you want.
this says, mother-in-law shared a video
of Karen's ruining weddings as a joke
and said it was a warning from her words.
I don't know how that.
Mother-in-law shared a video of
Karen's ruining weddings as a
joke and a warning from her words.
Yeah.
So she said it as like a warning.
What?
So basically saying, if you don't do
what I say, I can ruin your wedding.
Oh gosh.
That is so mean.
Did you see there was this
thing that went viral.
Someone just tagged me in on TikTok.
This girl shared a picture or like
a video of all her invitations in
a bucket of dirty water and said,
thanks to my mother-in-law, oh wait,
no, I didn't see that the water was
dirty because it was all the ink.
She already had pre-addressed all
these invitations in envelopes, and
the mother-in-law threw them in water
because they weren't what she wanted, or
she didn't want the wedding to happen.
It was like going viral on TikTok.
And people were like, can
you make a story about this?
And I was like, let me
gather some thoughts.
That's.
Terrible.
Oh my gosh, that is so
awful.
Do you, that is so awful.
Is that someone that just can't
deal with their emotions or can't
communicate, or hasn't been told?
No, maybe.
Yeah.
So the like term is enmeshment.
They're enmeshed, which means
they're fused, like, when it comes to
relationships, there's only one truth.
Like there's right or wrong, and
both people have to see it that way.
Whereas, they need to learn
what's called differentiation.
Like, hey, my kid is their own person.
They're making their own
choices and their own life.
And it doesn't have to be
the same as what I would do.
Mm. Or I
don't have to approve.
They have full autonomy and
agency to do what they need to do.
And so there's definitely a component of
not being able to regulate emotionally.
There's the component of being,
not really having boundaries.
there's a lot.
I mean, not, again, not to pathologize
people and 'cause I don't know all
the context behind these things, but
definitely parents that get upset at
their children's decisions, there is
a level of enmeshment between them.
Interesting.
Wow.
I don't know how some of
these people get through.
I know position, I just can't.
Imagine being treated that way.
Yeah.
awesome.
Okay, well that's all I have for, oh my
gosh, thank you so much for coming on.
It was so great chatting with you
and hearing a different perspective
on some of these things that we see.
Thank you for having me.
This was really fun and different.
just, I talk about this stuff
in such a serious way, and so
this was really light and fun.
I really enjoyed it.
Oh, good.
Thank you again.
Yeah.
Well, can you tell everyone again
where they can follow you, find
your content, and then what kind
of things you're working on and
what kind of things you share?
Yeah.
you can find me on TikTok, Instagram and
YouTube under the handle codependency.
Kate, KATE.
what am I working on?
I don't know.
I'm just having fun posting and,
just still learning about my
community and what the needs are
and just doing fun things like this.
I did start a podcast,
it's called The Gray Area.
Oh, fun.
Where?
Yeah, where like, so I post a
lot of educational stuff and my
podcast is where I just elaborate.
It's just like long form.
I literally just started it and I am
doing it just by myself and I, I didn't
realize I could yap the way I do.
I've literally like for 45 minutes to
an hour can just talk about something.
I had no idea.
I've always been curious, like
I wonder if I could just go.
how long I would talk.
Yeah.
And anyway, that's on my profile.
You're sign up now?
I'm literally, yeah.
so that's what I'm doing.
Yeah.
Now.
Awesome.
Well, very cool.
I feel like a lot of times our,
content can like cross over, like
you can be like the more, more
serious and educational for Yes.
I like education.
Yeah.
Because I feel like a lot of people have
que, you know, they hear these stories and
they have questions about it, or, brides
will reach out and be like, this is what
I'm currently dealing with or I can give
advice from a professional standpoint.
I just can say like, this is
what I've seen in these stories.
Yes.
Yeah.
So,
well, and that's valid too, your
experience with these stories.
So.
Not to think that, you have to have
formal training to be able to answer.
But yeah, I'm always happy to provide
the educational component because
there people, from what I've learned,
are shocked to find out these things
have names and these are issues,
you know, I'll post a video about
this and people are like, oh my
gosh, this is my exact situation.
And there's, you know, 10,000 other
people that feel the same way.
it's just so family systems is super
fun to educate people about and it
can be very validating for people
struggling in these situations.
Yeah.
I think that's one of the most
beautiful things about social
media is that we're able to
connect on those things like, yeah.
I saw someone say once like,
oh, my algorithm's spot on.
'cause it'll be like a video about
like someone with like a D, H, D
and anxiety and you're like, oh my
gosh, wait, I have those things.
Wait, I do those things.
Or it just allows you to connect and
see that you're not alone in something
or someone totally in the situation.
And,
it's so valid.
It can be such a relief and so
validating for people that don't
have access to therapy or like
support, extra support like that.
I literally got a message from someone
yesterday from like Gambia Africa.
Wow.
And they're like, yeah, we don't
have access to therapy here, so
I really appreciate your content.
I'm like, oh my God, this is so cool.
I didn't know.
Yeah.
our world's getting more accepting
of therapy and talking about it being
like, Hey, yes, I go to therapy and I,
but like that wasn't always the case.
Right.
And I'm sure you saw too, it
was more of like a hush hush
thing like, oh, I go to therapy.
You are worried about what
people are gonna think about you.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think for those that are
still kind of like scared of therapy
or like they don't know if they wanna
do it, social media's a great way
of opening that door being like, it
really is, wait, this is helpful.
Oh, this is cool.
Yeah.
Wait, I can talk to someone and
like, get empowered or learn
about myself or, yeah.
That's great.
Like be listened to and just
even explore my own thoughts.
Like I just think that therapy all
it is, is just creating space for
you to kind of come out and learn
about yourself, like you said.
So
yeah,
it's great.
Yeah.
Love that.
Awesome.
Well thank you again for coming on.
I had a great time chatting with you.
Me too.
Thanks again.
Thanks.