1
00:00:03,242 --> 00:00:05,732
Hello, and welcome to
another episode of Page 94.

2
00:00:05,762 --> 00:00:08,462
My name's Andrew Hunter Murray, and
I'm here in the private eye office.

3
00:00:08,522 --> 00:00:12,422
This episode is going to be a slightly
upside down one in the second half.

4
00:00:12,452 --> 00:00:15,152
Uh, we're going to be joined
by Ian, Helen, and Adam.

5
00:00:15,452 --> 00:00:17,612
But in the first half we're going
to have an interview, and the

6
00:00:17,612 --> 00:00:22,352
reason for that is that this is our
Summer Freedom of Speech special.

7
00:00:22,742 --> 00:00:26,192
Uh, we're gonna be talking about
policing, about protest, and

8
00:00:26,192 --> 00:00:28,112
about prescribed organizations.

9
00:00:28,322 --> 00:00:31,982
The reason this is in the news so much
at the moment, uh, was all kickstarted,

10
00:00:32,312 --> 00:00:34,472
by a group called Palestine Action.

11
00:00:34,741 --> 00:00:39,181
Now a prescribed organization,
but until recently, uh, simply

12
00:00:39,181 --> 00:00:41,101
a, a direct protest group.

13
00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,890
Their direct protests, uh, on behalf
of the Palestinian calls culminated

14
00:00:44,890 --> 00:00:47,680
at the start of July when some
members of the group broke into an

15
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,520
RAF base and sprayed paint into the
entrance of two military aircraft,

16
00:00:51,790 --> 00:00:56,320
which the group claimed were helping
to refuel American and Israeli jets.

17
00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:00,260
Just a few days later, plans were
announced, uh, to ban the group, uh, by

18
00:01:00,260 --> 00:01:05,300
the government, and it is now categorized
as a prescribed organization on roughly

19
00:01:05,300 --> 00:01:10,010
the same level as Islamic State, say
when the government prescribed Palestine

20
00:01:10,010 --> 00:01:13,340
action, the home office minister Dan
Jarvis said that that prescription.

21
00:01:13,385 --> 00:01:16,355
Quotes would not impinge on
people's right to protest.

22
00:01:16,475 --> 00:01:20,015
Those who wish to protest or express
support for Palestine have always been

23
00:01:20,015 --> 00:01:22,295
able to and can continue to do so.

24
00:01:23,015 --> 00:01:24,365
That has not been strictly true.

25
00:01:24,365 --> 00:01:27,845
Dozens of people have been arrested not
only for holding placards, supporting

26
00:01:27,845 --> 00:01:29,915
Palestine action, but many more.

27
00:01:30,225 --> 00:01:32,955
Uh, for holding placards,
which were not about.

28
00:01:32,985 --> 00:01:36,615
The group Palestine action was simply
in support of the Palestinian cause.

29
00:01:36,855 --> 00:01:40,185
And recently one man in West Yorkshire
was arrested for holding a placard,

30
00:01:40,185 --> 00:01:44,115
which although it mentioned the
words Palestine and action, uh, was

31
00:01:44,115 --> 00:01:45,555
not a placard supporting the group.

32
00:01:45,585 --> 00:01:48,015
And we can say that for sure
because it was a joke, uh,

33
00:01:48,045 --> 00:01:49,725
from the last issue of eye.

34
00:01:50,775 --> 00:01:53,745
John Farley, a retired head teacher from
Yorkshire, had printed out the joke,

35
00:01:53,745 --> 00:01:54,855
which he thought made a good point.

36
00:01:54,975 --> 00:01:57,615
He put it on a placard and
promptly found himself arrested

37
00:01:57,645 --> 00:01:58,785
by the West Yorkshire police.

38
00:01:58,949 --> 00:02:00,569
He was bundled into a police Van.

39
00:02:00,629 --> 00:02:02,999
He was driven to the nearest
police station where he was

40
00:02:02,999 --> 00:02:04,259
held for about six hours.

41
00:02:04,649 --> 00:02:08,829
Uh, he eventually got a solicitor and
was interviewed, by counter terror

42
00:02:08,829 --> 00:02:12,679
police before eventually being released
on bail, uh, pending any charges.

43
00:02:12,739 --> 00:02:14,329
Charges, which were
not eventually brought.

44
00:02:14,779 --> 00:02:17,209
Uh, and it's a good thing that Mr.
Farley is still at liberty because

45
00:02:17,209 --> 00:02:19,189
it means he's free to join us now.

46
00:02:19,189 --> 00:02:19,459
John.

47
00:02:19,459 --> 00:02:19,969
Hello?

48
00:02:20,305 --> 00:02:20,665
Hi there.

49
00:02:21,297 --> 00:02:25,827
John, you went on this march, was
it a Palestine action march or was

50
00:02:25,827 --> 00:02:28,707
it simply a pro-Palestine march.

51
00:02:29,167 --> 00:02:30,817
No, it wasn't Palestine action.

52
00:02:31,207 --> 00:02:35,497
It's organized by Leeds Branch
of Palestine solidarity campaign.

53
00:02:35,797 --> 00:02:40,807
They've been doing them, almost
continuously since the situation started.

54
00:02:41,042 --> 00:02:42,877
And I've, I've been on quite a few.

55
00:02:42,877 --> 00:02:45,422
I've not been on all of them, you
know, but I've been on quite a few.

56
00:02:46,134 --> 00:02:50,364
So, uh, you went on this march, you
had a placard with you, we should

57
00:02:50,364 --> 00:02:55,134
say at the start of things that
it was a joke from Private eye.

58
00:02:55,404 --> 00:02:57,954
Can you just tell us what
the joke was, please?

59
00:02:58,558 --> 00:02:59,278
Yes, I can.

60
00:02:59,278 --> 00:03:05,518
It, it, it said at the top in quotes,
Palestine Action explained, and then

61
00:03:05,518 --> 00:03:10,288
underneath it had in sort of on red
background, unacceptable Palestine

62
00:03:10,288 --> 00:03:16,378
action,, spraying military planes
with paint the other bit in green

63
00:03:16,408 --> 00:03:20,758
it said acceptable Palestine action
shooting Palestinians queuing for

64
00:03:20,758 --> 00:03:24,778
food, and I should add, actually
underneath, I put copyright symbol,

65
00:03:24,868 --> 00:03:28,618
private eye, uh, number 1, 6 5 3.

66
00:03:28,974 --> 00:03:32,824
And that was really the thing, the
punchline, if you like, for it.

67
00:03:32,824 --> 00:03:38,224
Because the march was about the denial
of food aid to, that was the theme.

68
00:03:38,224 --> 00:03:40,384
It was a silent march and
that was the theme of it.

69
00:03:40,794 --> 00:03:43,962
Can you tell us in your own
words, what happened on the day?

70
00:03:44,012 --> 00:03:47,282
it was a silent march, which we
don't, which you sometimes do.

71
00:03:47,282 --> 00:03:52,652
So it was very solemn, you know, um,
people were carrying boxes to symbolize

72
00:03:52,652 --> 00:03:55,082
the aid that's been denied into Gaza.

73
00:03:55,500 --> 00:03:59,640
So I'm holding this up and I, I passed
serious policemen on the, on the way.

74
00:04:00,030 --> 00:04:02,880
And then I was more than, we
were more than halfway round.

75
00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:08,100
And I saw two officers on the side
and they just, they saw me and

76
00:04:08,100 --> 00:04:09,630
made a beeline straight to me.

77
00:04:09,630 --> 00:04:11,220
And I thought, they
must have good eyesight.

78
00:04:11,310 --> 00:04:14,213
'cause you know, I wasn't
that near them, but they said,

79
00:04:14,213 --> 00:04:15,263
can we have a word with you?

80
00:04:15,293 --> 00:04:18,563
And I said, well, can he come to the
paper and have a word with me, us?

81
00:04:18,893 --> 00:04:19,703
And I said, well.

82
00:04:19,748 --> 00:04:23,558
We can have a word here if you like,
and they said, no, we want you.

83
00:04:23,588 --> 00:04:27,548
So then they just grabbed me by the
arms, took me to the pavement and

84
00:04:27,548 --> 00:04:30,748
I'm not quite sure how, but some,
I ended up sitting on the pavement.

85
00:04:30,748 --> 00:04:35,848
I think I went a bit limp as they
dragged me over and, and they

86
00:04:35,848 --> 00:04:37,138
said, it's about the placard.

87
00:04:37,138 --> 00:04:38,638
And I went, oh, I.

88
00:04:39,077 --> 00:04:40,847
I brought the private eye with me.

89
00:04:41,127 --> 00:04:44,129
'Cause I thought possibly somebody
might say something to me, you know?

90
00:04:44,609 --> 00:04:50,489
Um, so I, I said it's in,
it's in, uh, my rucksack.

91
00:04:50,519 --> 00:04:52,079
I couldn't show you private eyes from mag.

92
00:04:52,109 --> 00:04:52,709
It's from that.

93
00:04:52,709 --> 00:04:55,619
It's from, and, and at that
point I realized that I

94
00:04:55,619 --> 00:04:57,239
had a handcuff on one hand.

95
00:04:57,734 --> 00:05:01,904
And they were saying, you're under arrest
under Section 12, the Terrorism Act.

96
00:05:02,414 --> 00:05:06,284
I thought they might say
something to me first, but they

97
00:05:06,284 --> 00:05:08,834
just, and I was a bit surprised.

98
00:05:08,977 --> 00:05:11,077
So then they said, you are resisting.

99
00:05:11,077 --> 00:05:12,157
I said, I'm not.

100
00:05:12,277 --> 00:05:14,077
And he said, but your arms are tense.

101
00:05:14,197 --> 00:05:17,287
And I thought to myself,
I, I feel pretty tense.

102
00:05:17,437 --> 00:05:20,647
I've just been drug to the
pavement by two cops, you know?

103
00:05:21,217 --> 00:05:24,182
Uh, anyway, they put the handcuffs on
and they said, will you walk to the Van?

104
00:05:25,102 --> 00:05:28,492
So I said, well, I will, if you take
the handcuffs off, let me show you the

105
00:05:28,492 --> 00:05:31,582
magazine and you can see where it's come.

106
00:05:31,582 --> 00:05:31,822
You know?

107
00:05:32,152 --> 00:05:34,702
And I kept saying, it's a
cartoon from Private Eye.

108
00:05:34,942 --> 00:05:39,772
It's, and eventually people stood around
me, they all started, they heard that and

109
00:05:39,772 --> 00:05:41,962
went, it's a cartoon from Private Eye.

110
00:05:42,112 --> 00:05:45,262
It's a cartoon from, so
it went on like this?

111
00:05:45,502 --> 00:05:47,032
No, they weren't interested.

112
00:05:47,032 --> 00:05:51,533
And as I did suggest before, I
don't know, but I think they've not.

113
00:05:52,057 --> 00:05:54,307
They weren't readers and they
may not have heard of it.

114
00:05:54,427 --> 00:05:56,857
You know, their loss, their loss.

115
00:05:57,313 --> 00:05:58,693
I was in shock to be honest.

116
00:05:58,743 --> 00:06:01,893
it was really only when I got
in the Van I thought, crikey,

117
00:06:02,313 --> 00:06:05,133
so you would, you would, I presume,
driven off from the protest?

118
00:06:05,133 --> 00:06:05,193
Yeah.

119
00:06:05,323 --> 00:06:09,613
yeah, uh, yeah, they, people sort
of surrounded a Van and that, but

120
00:06:09,673 --> 00:06:11,953
obviously they, they took me away.

121
00:06:12,763 --> 00:06:18,046
And then lying back in the, uh, Van
I was on the floor, I said to them,

122
00:06:18,046 --> 00:06:18,881
they said to, what's your name?

123
00:06:20,206 --> 00:06:22,006
And it was beginning to sink in then.

124
00:06:22,216 --> 00:06:24,256
And I said, well, look,
take the handcuffs off.

125
00:06:24,256 --> 00:06:25,396
'cause I thought, I'm in the Van.

126
00:06:25,606 --> 00:06:27,856
I'm not gonna get in two
burly coppers, you know?

127
00:06:28,696 --> 00:06:30,916
Um, and I'll show you the no.

128
00:06:31,156 --> 00:06:37,006
And then, so he found my bus pass and
he said, oh, you are your Alan Farley.

129
00:06:37,336 --> 00:06:38,326
Because before that he said.

130
00:06:38,881 --> 00:06:40,981
Well, if you don't tell me
your name, what can I call you?

131
00:06:41,011 --> 00:06:45,991
And I said, call me sir. And
which seemed reasonable enough,

132
00:06:46,411 --> 00:06:47,491
but he didn't like that.

133
00:06:47,701 --> 00:06:51,961
, So by this stage I thought, well,
you know, I better not say anything

134
00:06:51,961 --> 00:06:54,181
else now  then I got booked in.

135
00:06:54,181 --> 00:06:54,451
I was.

136
00:06:54,728 --> 00:06:56,258
Feeling a bit stroppy by then.

137
00:06:56,258 --> 00:06:59,918
So they said things like, are you
vulnerable or do you feel vulnerable?

138
00:06:59,918 --> 00:07:01,388
And I said, yes, I do.

139
00:07:02,498 --> 00:07:03,848
And they looked at me a bit surprised.

140
00:07:03,848 --> 00:07:06,548
They said, well, I'm in a
police station and, you know,

141
00:07:07,108 --> 00:07:08,878
I presume this is your first arrest,

142
00:07:09,158 --> 00:07:09,788
yes.

143
00:07:10,275 --> 00:07:12,915
they give you cards out with
a solicitor's number on.

144
00:07:13,455 --> 00:07:16,605
On the demo, which I've had in
my pocket and I've never used,

145
00:07:16,605 --> 00:07:21,495
obviously, and they said it's better
not to use the duty solicitor.

146
00:07:21,495 --> 00:07:22,785
You get them to ring this one.

147
00:07:23,265 --> 00:07:24,615
Could I find this card?

148
00:07:24,675 --> 00:07:25,185
No.

149
00:07:25,275 --> 00:07:28,875
And I accused falsely I apologized
to wish I falsely called,

150
00:07:28,875 --> 00:07:30,795
accused you of throwing it away.

151
00:07:30,795 --> 00:07:34,305
In fact, it was tucked into
my phone case all the time.

152
00:07:34,305 --> 00:07:38,475
I found out upon release, but I, I
luckily I could remember the name

153
00:07:38,475 --> 00:07:39,705
and they said, oh yes, we know them.

154
00:07:39,705 --> 00:07:40,575
We can call them.

155
00:07:41,475 --> 00:07:44,025
And I could just about
remember my wise phone number.

156
00:07:44,535 --> 00:07:47,475
So I asked them to call her
and they never did, to be fair.

157
00:07:47,699 --> 00:07:51,209
but she was also on the march, but
elsewhere, so she was one of the last

158
00:07:51,209 --> 00:07:53,249
people to find out that I'd been arrested.

159
00:07:54,119 --> 00:07:58,079
So then they said, do you want
to read the, uh, police and

160
00:07:58,079 --> 00:08:01,889
criminal evidence, uh, guidance?

161
00:08:02,069 --> 00:08:04,409
And I thought, well, I'm, I dunno how
long I'm gonna be in there and they

162
00:08:04,409 --> 00:08:06,569
won't let me take my copy of private eye.

163
00:08:07,169 --> 00:08:08,549
Uh, so I said yes.

164
00:08:08,879 --> 00:08:11,699
So I've read most of West
Yorkshire's guidance.

165
00:08:12,149 --> 00:08:13,439
they took my fingerprints.

166
00:08:13,439 --> 00:08:18,337
They took DNA swabs, Then I got a call
from the solicitor via the intercom,

167
00:08:18,427 --> 00:08:22,927
which was hard to make out, but she said,
don't worry, I'll be there fairly soon

168
00:08:23,027 --> 00:08:24,557
and I asked, could she ring my wife?

169
00:08:24,557 --> 00:08:27,542
And she took the number and she
did ring my wife, I had a Cup of

170
00:08:27,542 --> 00:08:29,792
tea, they gave me a Cup of water.

171
00:08:30,332 --> 00:08:31,982
I had a fairly horrible.

172
00:08:32,672 --> 00:08:33,602
heated up meal.

173
00:08:33,682 --> 00:08:35,332
How long were you held all in?

174
00:08:35,533 --> 00:08:36,613
just over six hours.

175
00:08:36,613 --> 00:08:41,053
I think I was arrested just before
two and I got out about eight.

176
00:08:41,368 --> 00:08:43,648
Oh, I gotta see a nurse
while I was in as well.

177
00:08:44,458 --> 00:08:48,418
Um, because I'd asked my medica,
I'm mass, I'm mildly asthmatic,

178
00:08:48,418 --> 00:08:50,278
and I'd ask my medication.

179
00:08:50,308 --> 00:08:55,505
'cause in a stressful situation it can be
a bit worse, you know, which somebody got

180
00:08:55,505 --> 00:08:57,005
and brought down to the police station.

181
00:08:57,410 --> 00:09:01,700
And I got to see a nurse, very
friendly nurse, a paramedic, NHS.

182
00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,660
And one of the things she did was take my
blood pressure and I said, oh, I'm going

183
00:09:05,660 --> 00:09:07,640
to see my doctors about that this week.

184
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,810
and she said, well, you can tell
them your blood pressure's fine.

185
00:09:11,260 --> 00:09:12,070
Which it was.

186
00:09:12,970 --> 00:09:15,340
Which considering Yes, exactly.

187
00:09:15,340 --> 00:09:18,850
So I've, I thought that was an un, you
know, I thought, well that's one positive

188
00:09:18,850 --> 00:09:20,170
that's come out of today, you know

189
00:09:20,384 --> 00:09:22,544
Then the solicitor came,
we had a brief chat.

190
00:09:22,544 --> 00:09:24,404
She said, look, I advise you.

191
00:09:24,464 --> 00:09:28,484
Just no comment, no questions
because you, if we're gonna have

192
00:09:28,484 --> 00:09:30,104
a debate, we'll have it in court.

193
00:09:30,154 --> 00:09:31,414
They asked me all sorts of questions.

194
00:09:31,414 --> 00:09:33,784
I mean, one of the questions, I
can't remember what it was, but

195
00:09:33,784 --> 00:09:38,254
he sort of, I rolled my eyes as he
said it and he sort of looked a bit

196
00:09:38,254 --> 00:09:41,944
apologetic and said, I know, but
we do have to ask these questions.

197
00:09:41,944 --> 00:09:42,934
I'm sure you understand at.

198
00:09:43,059 --> 00:09:45,909
is this questions about whether
you were a member of Palestine

199
00:09:45,909 --> 00:09:48,309
action or a member of a
prescribed organization,

200
00:09:48,394 --> 00:09:50,944
they said, do you support
Palestine actions?

201
00:09:50,944 --> 00:09:52,264
Obviously, I said, no comment.

202
00:09:52,984 --> 00:09:55,564
Um, or I might have just
said no to that one.

203
00:09:55,813 --> 00:09:59,723
and then they said, did someone
force you to carry this placard?

204
00:09:59,903 --> 00:10:00,683
Did you make it?

205
00:10:00,683 --> 00:10:01,853
Did somebody else make it?

206
00:10:02,423 --> 00:10:06,353
And one of them, one of them said,
this is the counter-terrorism police.

207
00:10:06,353 --> 00:10:07,763
He said, I see the advert.

208
00:10:08,258 --> 00:10:12,633
And the magazine was very
small and I thought advert, I

209
00:10:12,633 --> 00:10:14,558
thought, what's going on anyway?

210
00:10:14,888 --> 00:10:18,458
I said, uh, he said, he said,
did you blow it up yourself?

211
00:10:18,878 --> 00:10:20,498
And I thought, you're counter-terrorism.

212
00:10:20,498 --> 00:10:23,138
Police don't say things like that to me.

213
00:10:24,943 --> 00:10:27,193
That's a very leading question to ask.

214
00:10:27,193 --> 00:10:27,613
Yeah.

215
00:10:27,723 --> 00:10:28,373
well, but

216
00:10:28,373 --> 00:10:28,653
they.

217
00:10:28,933 --> 00:10:30,943
your placard would've
been one inch square, so,

218
00:10:31,073 --> 00:10:32,243
well, exactly, yes.

219
00:10:32,398 --> 00:10:35,284
So through that interview I
back and I thought, are they

220
00:10:35,284 --> 00:10:36,664
taking this, that seriously?

221
00:10:36,784 --> 00:10:39,934
I wonder if they are, you know, the
solicitors felt quite confident.

222
00:10:40,354 --> 00:10:43,264
She said, I think, you know,
she said, don't know, but, you

223
00:10:43,264 --> 00:10:44,764
know, got quite a strong case.

224
00:10:45,619 --> 00:10:47,749
okay, so eventually you were
released without charge.

225
00:10:48,089 --> 00:10:49,409
yes, well, no.

226
00:10:49,409 --> 00:10:52,769
I raised on bail charges
going, pending, going.

227
00:10:52,829 --> 00:10:58,564
They said they were gonna send my file to
the CPS.. they hadn't committed an offense

228
00:10:58,594 --> 00:11:02,461
and they, they must have been beginning
to think, you know, what's in this?

229
00:11:02,761 --> 00:11:07,861
and my bail conditions said I wasn't to
go on any Palestine action demos or mark

230
00:11:07,861 --> 00:11:12,421
protests, and I said to the solicitor,
I wasn't on a Palestine action protest.

231
00:11:13,156 --> 00:11:14,476
And I've never been on one.

232
00:11:15,166 --> 00:11:17,176
And in any case, aren't they illegal?

233
00:11:17,326 --> 00:11:21,976
So at this point, John, I probably have
an apology to make to you, um, because

234
00:11:21,976 --> 00:11:26,581
it was actually me who wrote that joke
for private eye and I. I did not think

235
00:11:27,451 --> 00:11:30,271
would have a result because the classic
result of writing a joke for the mag

236
00:11:30,271 --> 00:11:32,641
is nothing, nothing happens at all.

237
00:11:33,181 --> 00:11:36,691
Uh, and so it wasn't our intention to
get anyone banged up, uh, particularly

238
00:11:36,691 --> 00:11:38,491
not if they haven't done anything wrong.

239
00:11:38,821 --> 00:11:40,021
So I'm very sorry about that.

240
00:11:40,466 --> 00:11:41,876
Well, it's not your fault.

241
00:11:41,876 --> 00:11:46,781
I saw it and I I did think that will make
a good placard, not least because it's.

242
00:11:47,546 --> 00:11:50,666
Different from the standard
ones that are handed out.

243
00:11:50,666 --> 00:11:54,476
You know, the same same old, you know,
everybody's heard the same stuff before

244
00:11:54,476 --> 00:11:59,366
and I thought this is a clever, a
nuanced take, but makes the point really

245
00:11:59,366 --> 00:12:01,946
well, you know, good old private eye.

246
00:12:02,156 --> 00:12:03,566
It'll have been through the lawyers.

247
00:12:03,866 --> 00:12:04,676
What could go wrong?

248
00:12:04,676 --> 00:12:05,066
I thought,

249
00:12:05,861 --> 00:12:06,151
yeah

250
00:12:06,867 --> 00:12:09,477
so did you know about
Palestine action before?

251
00:12:09,477 --> 00:12:11,097
Did you know that this
group had been prescribed?

252
00:12:11,097 --> 00:12:12,897
I'm sure you keep up with
the issue in general.

253
00:12:13,491 --> 00:12:16,191
I'd heard of them and yes, and
I was aware of the prescription.

254
00:12:16,641 --> 00:12:22,101
So, you know, and, and I. I knew I didn't
want to do what other people have done

255
00:12:22,101 --> 00:12:24,351
and gone out and saying they support them.

256
00:12:25,281 --> 00:12:30,471
But when I could say, I saw that and I
thought that uses that phrase, but in

257
00:12:30,471 --> 00:12:34,191
a different way to make the point about
people are being shocked, queuing for food

258
00:12:34,291 --> 00:12:39,091
, um, we're gonna be talking a bit later on
in the podcast, um, with the, with the IT

259
00:12:39,091 --> 00:12:43,861
team about freedom of speech, heavy handed
policing, all of this kind of thing.

260
00:12:44,041 --> 00:12:44,581
I mean.

261
00:12:44,845 --> 00:12:49,045
In your opinion, do you think what
happened to you was simply really clumsy

262
00:12:49,045 --> 00:12:52,735
policing, or do you think it kind of
indicates a general problem with freedom

263
00:12:52,735 --> 00:12:54,205
of speech at the moment in the uk?

264
00:12:55,039 --> 00:12:56,119
I'd say a bit of both.

265
00:12:56,599 --> 00:13:00,169
I mean, they were clumsy because they
didn't give any chance to explain.

266
00:13:00,169 --> 00:13:04,099
The solicitor said to me later, they
didn't even give you what words of

267
00:13:04,099 --> 00:13:05,899
advice, I believe is the phrase.

268
00:13:06,621 --> 00:13:08,384
but they chose to arrest me.

269
00:13:08,673 --> 00:13:11,013
somebody showed me a
video that had been taken.

270
00:13:11,193 --> 00:13:14,433
There's people who follow us around
videoing us and they post them and

271
00:13:14,860 --> 00:13:17,380
and it showed the Van driving around.

272
00:13:17,710 --> 00:13:23,090
Parking up, they walked out, stood to
the side and then as soon as I came by,

273
00:13:23,090 --> 00:13:24,710
they would come straight out for me.

274
00:13:25,310 --> 00:13:28,790
So I think they'd already seen the,
I dunno, I presume they'd seen the

275
00:13:28,790 --> 00:13:30,920
sign at some point and thought,
right, we're gonna arrest him.

276
00:13:31,820 --> 00:13:36,770
So yeah, I think it was clumsy,
but also they weren't, I think,

277
00:13:36,770 --> 00:13:39,560
right, we need to get off the
street straight away sort of thing.

278
00:13:40,130 --> 00:13:41,510
I wasn't thinking I'd get arrested.

279
00:13:41,510 --> 00:13:45,410
I thought they might say, I thought
perhaps, perhaps they'll say something.

280
00:13:45,530 --> 00:13:47,360
Somebody, a friend said to
me, oh, you sure about that?

281
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:48,530
I said, well, it's been in private.

282
00:13:48,530 --> 00:13:52,250
Ah, you know, so I wasn't
completely oblivious to it,

283
00:13:52,910 --> 00:13:55,670
but I thought at the worst
they'd say, you can't carry it.

284
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:56,870
You know, or whatever.

285
00:13:56,870 --> 00:13:57,110
You know?

286
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:58,635
Now I've just said, all
right, you have it, you know?

287
00:13:59,265 --> 00:14:01,995
As it turns out, stuff being
printed in private eye is not.

288
00:14:02,385 --> 00:14:04,905
I guarantee that you won't be
sued over it as the magazines

289
00:14:04,905 --> 00:14:07,545
found out to its cost many times

290
00:14:09,205 --> 00:14:09,690
that's true.

291
00:14:10,155 --> 00:14:12,255
very dangerous, very dangerous idea.

292
00:14:12,885 --> 00:14:17,283
Um, so part of this, was shutting
down the use of those words on any

293
00:14:17,283 --> 00:14:21,663
placards whatsoever, no matter what
the context was., What happened next?

294
00:14:21,663 --> 00:14:22,293
Did it work?

295
00:14:22,293 --> 00:14:24,783
Has this absolutely been chilled
and shut down and the words have

296
00:14:24,783 --> 00:14:26,223
never appeared again on a placard?

297
00:14:26,412 --> 00:14:27,312
quiet the opposite.

298
00:14:27,312 --> 00:14:32,292
Well, on Monday they rang me at 10 30
and said No further actions being taken.

299
00:14:32,982 --> 00:14:33,702
I said, would you?

300
00:14:33,702 --> 00:14:34,692
And they said, would you like that?

301
00:14:34,722 --> 00:14:35,652
Emailed her in write.

302
00:14:35,652 --> 00:14:37,092
I said, write to me.

303
00:14:37,152 --> 00:14:39,522
Well, I've had the letter
saying that although it says.

304
00:14:40,152 --> 00:14:43,032
They still reserved a right to
investigate further, you know,

305
00:14:43,309 --> 00:14:44,959
but no, quite the opposite.

306
00:14:45,029 --> 00:14:46,979
Last Saturday we had another march.

307
00:14:47,459 --> 00:14:50,399
And I reckon there was a double,
the number of people there.

308
00:14:50,619 --> 00:14:54,742
Uh, my son came along, friends I
hadn't seen for ages came along.

309
00:14:55,342 --> 00:14:58,882
And then as we were going around,
I thought that looks familiar.

310
00:14:59,407 --> 00:15:04,027
And it turned out somebody had made
about 50 copies of the placard that I

311
00:15:04,027 --> 00:15:09,847
had and were carrying around and, you
know, and I thought, I mean, somebody

312
00:15:09,847 --> 00:15:11,497
had one hanging from his carrier bag.

313
00:15:11,497 --> 00:15:12,547
I thought that was very casual.

314
00:15:13,327 --> 00:15:17,737
And there was one, one person, he had one
and he would, he was walking along and

315
00:15:17,737 --> 00:15:21,937
he left the march and he'd walk up to a
policeman, stand next to them, and at the

316
00:15:21,937 --> 00:15:26,617
end, um, somebody was collecting them in
and some people said, oh, can I keep it?

317
00:15:27,427 --> 00:15:31,837
So, so there's, there's probably a few
hanging up in people's houses somewhere.

318
00:15:31,837 --> 00:15:36,727
So, yeah, no, it's had the opposite
effect and lot, I've had so many messages.

319
00:15:37,317 --> 00:15:39,657
. In fact, an old friend who I haven't seen.

320
00:15:39,912 --> 00:15:41,172
well, since the eighties.

321
00:15:41,206 --> 00:15:42,166
he sent me a mess.

322
00:15:42,166 --> 00:15:46,726
He found me on Twitter or ex and,
and sent me a message and said he,

323
00:15:46,756 --> 00:15:50,236
we were at school together and he
said, I'm having a birthday party on

324
00:15:50,236 --> 00:15:52,246
Saturday, next Saturday in London.

325
00:15:52,486 --> 00:15:53,296
Can you come down?

326
00:15:53,326 --> 00:15:57,263
So I am, so it's working
as friends reunited.

327
00:15:57,963 --> 00:15:58,663
So there you go.

328
00:15:59,259 --> 00:15:59,769
There you go.

329
00:15:59,769 --> 00:16:02,949
If you want to connect with an old
friend, uh, just pick up your copy of

330
00:16:02,949 --> 00:16:06,189
private eye, find the most inflammatory
drug you can and print it out.

331
00:16:07,098 --> 00:16:07,398
Yeah,

332
00:16:09,343 --> 00:16:10,948
Thank you so much for
speaking to us, John.

333
00:16:11,633 --> 00:16:13,043
that's, that's my pleasure.

334
00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:18,660
so now for the second of the show, I'm
still in the private eye office, but

335
00:16:18,660 --> 00:16:22,500
I'm joined now by Helen Lewis, Adam
McQueen and Ian Hislop, and this is

336
00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:24,630
gonna be our summer free speech special.

337
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:25,145
Very exciting.

338
00:16:25,655 --> 00:16:26,885
Something to listen to on the beach.

339
00:16:28,269 --> 00:16:30,627
So, um, yes, Palestine
action was prescribed.

340
00:16:30,627 --> 00:16:34,539
Interesting little bonus info for you
here, the same day as, the Maniac's

341
00:16:34,539 --> 00:16:38,469
Murder Cult and the Russia Imperial
Movement, which are two neo-Nazi groups.

342
00:16:38,709 --> 00:16:43,209
So, Palestine Action is, classified
as a terrorist organization, which is.

343
00:16:43,622 --> 00:16:48,062
I think an interesting conflation of
a, a protest group and a terror group.

344
00:16:48,244 --> 00:16:51,244
so the nature and scale of a group's
activities, I believe have to be taken

345
00:16:51,244 --> 00:16:53,134
into account before you prescribe it.

346
00:16:53,464 --> 00:16:57,484
And most of Palestine actions,
actions, uh, had been.

347
00:16:57,618 --> 00:17:01,466
Marches, protests, that kind of thing,
rather than breaking into places.

348
00:17:01,496 --> 00:17:01,616
Does

349
00:17:01,616 --> 00:17:04,676
this follow climate groups as well,
like extinction rebellion, getting

350
00:17:04,676 --> 00:17:07,076
designations as, uh, as targeted groups?

351
00:17:07,826 --> 00:17:10,406
it certainly follows very heavy
sentences being dished out to members

352
00:17:11,186 --> 00:17:14,966
of, uh, climate groups, which have
taken direct action that that is true.

353
00:17:15,446 --> 00:17:19,706
But what's also true is that presumably
breaking into a military base and.

354
00:17:19,857 --> 00:17:23,337
damaging planes is also covered by
existing criminal laws, isn't it?

355
00:17:23,342 --> 00:17:24,447
I, I believe it is.

356
00:17:24,447 --> 00:17:24,807
Yes.

357
00:17:24,807 --> 00:17:24,927
And

358
00:17:24,927 --> 00:17:29,877
this was the argument, um, inside
government, um, before they, they

359
00:17:29,877 --> 00:17:34,467
rushed to do this and there were voices
saying, Don't do this in a hurry, it

360
00:17:34,467 --> 00:17:36,687
may end up making you look ridiculous.

361
00:17:36,837 --> 00:17:40,287
and before private I had written this
joke, we had written a number of pieces

362
00:17:40,287 --> 00:17:45,417
saying, if you're going to do this, um,
surely it's covered by criminal damage.

363
00:17:45,417 --> 00:17:48,447
There are ways of prosecuting people
if that's what you want to do,

364
00:17:48,717 --> 00:17:51,207
without making them a terrorist group.

365
00:17:51,507 --> 00:17:56,577
Um, and also without making people
who support any sort of action about.

366
00:17:56,967 --> 00:17:59,457
Palestine, um, into supporters.

367
00:17:59,457 --> 00:18:03,417
It was obviously going to conflate
things that, um, would lead to

368
00:18:03,417 --> 00:18:07,467
misunderstandings and in this
case the arrest of, of poor John.

369
00:18:07,607 --> 00:18:10,697
And it's also crazy to leave those
decisions at an operational level

370
00:18:10,697 --> 00:18:12,317
at actual demonstrations, isn't it?

371
00:18:12,317 --> 00:18:14,147
Because, I mean, there are, there
are many difficult things that,

372
00:18:14,417 --> 00:18:15,527
that coppers on the beat have to do.

373
00:18:16,112 --> 00:18:18,932
Possibly passing private eye
jokes and deciding whether or

374
00:18:18,932 --> 00:18:20,012
not they're offensive or funny.

375
00:18:20,012 --> 00:18:21,752
Shouldn't really be one
of those should, are they?

376
00:18:21,752 --> 00:18:23,972
I mean, it just strikes me as
a really, really badly drafted

377
00:18:24,032 --> 00:18:26,192
all, like a lot of these kind
of kneejerk things that come in.

378
00:18:26,192 --> 00:18:28,292
Hey, so I'm thinking also you
remember the Dangerous Dogs Act?

379
00:18:28,472 --> 00:18:28,592
Yep.

380
00:18:28,592 --> 00:18:30,002
And that came in and suddenly
police were having to make

381
00:18:30,002 --> 00:18:31,892
decisions on what breed a dog was.

382
00:18:32,252 --> 00:18:36,535
You know, when they're not trained up
by the Kennel Club, it take the time

383
00:18:36,535 --> 00:18:38,305
to, uh, to make these things specific.

384
00:18:38,305 --> 00:18:38,395
Yes.

385
00:18:38,491 --> 00:18:41,521
I'm still in shock over the fact the
police officer who made the arrest

386
00:18:41,731 --> 00:18:46,561
didn't know what private eye was,
which is, um, you know, uh, a really

387
00:18:46,561 --> 00:18:47,716
shocking thing in the modern world.

388
00:18:47,736 --> 00:18:48,277
He should be in

389
00:18:48,282 --> 00:18:49,681
prison, is what you're saying.

390
00:18:49,681 --> 00:18:50,401
Well, John,

391
00:18:50,401 --> 00:18:50,551
no.

392
00:18:50,551 --> 00:18:51,841
It's a deep failure.

393
00:18:52,096 --> 00:18:56,221
Mr. Mr. Farley said that he kept
saying, look, can I just get my copy

394
00:18:56,221 --> 00:18:58,081
of private eye out of my rux rucksack?

395
00:18:58,321 --> 00:19:01,291
But if you've just arrested someone
on a potential T charge, and they

396
00:19:01,291 --> 00:19:03,691
keep saying, can I go and get
something from my bag to show you?

397
00:19:05,186 --> 00:19:05,476
Yeah.

398
00:19:05,906 --> 00:19:06,656
Fair point.

399
00:19:06,656 --> 00:19:09,086
They didn't, uh, they didn't
go for that for some reason.

400
00:19:09,086 --> 00:19:10,436
So, Ian, is this.

401
00:19:10,816 --> 00:19:16,006
Is this just badly drafted law then having
its inevitable consequence on the streets?

402
00:19:16,186 --> 00:19:16,486
Yes.

403
00:19:16,486 --> 00:19:22,306
if you are told, um, to take some sort
of, I hate to say the word action, um, uh,

404
00:19:22,306 --> 00:19:27,161
when demonstrations happen and it's really
unclear what you are meant to do, then.

405
00:19:27,841 --> 00:19:29,491
Ridiculous things will happen.

406
00:19:29,731 --> 00:19:32,731
and this is both absurd.

407
00:19:32,731 --> 00:19:35,821
And also, I mean, he, he
spent six hours in custody.

408
00:19:36,841 --> 00:19:39,421
You know, he was, he was put
on the ground and cuffed.

409
00:19:39,421 --> 00:19:40,261
It's not nothing.

410
00:19:40,351 --> 00:19:40,681
Mm. Yeah.

411
00:19:40,741 --> 00:19:45,421
Um, and the freedom speech issue
is something that's important

412
00:19:45,421 --> 00:19:48,811
at the moment, and we get it
every which way at private eye.

413
00:19:48,931 --> 00:19:49,771
Nearly all the time.

414
00:19:49,771 --> 00:19:52,981
There's someone who wants to ban
a joke from the last issue or

415
00:19:52,981 --> 00:19:56,371
a piece from the last issue, or
says, why do you never write about

416
00:19:56,371 --> 00:20:00,211
antisemitism when we've written
three pieces about it in that issue?

417
00:20:00,271 --> 00:20:02,901
Or why do you,, accept that?

418
00:20:02,901 --> 00:20:07,101
Um, we need a new blasphemy law with
Islamophobia, which we didn't do.

419
00:20:07,341 --> 00:20:08,871
And there are concerns there.

420
00:20:09,051 --> 00:20:14,451
you have to, I think, have what
John called nuance here, and

421
00:20:14,451 --> 00:20:17,334
that's in the legislation that
can't be in the policing of it.

422
00:20:17,837 --> 00:20:20,687
I think it's a particularly difficult
one because actually this is a subject

423
00:20:20,687 --> 00:20:24,047
on which Britain's politicians are
until now have been actually slightly

424
00:20:24,047 --> 00:20:25,577
outta touch with popular opinion.

425
00:20:26,027 --> 00:20:29,327
So the kind of elite popular opinion
about Israel's right to exist and

426
00:20:29,327 --> 00:20:33,047
the, and being supportive and an
ally to Benjamin Netanyahu actually

427
00:20:33,047 --> 00:20:36,557
in the polling the British public
is a lot more skeptical of Israel.

428
00:20:36,587 --> 00:20:40,247
Its government, its actions in
Palestine, the Gaza Strip than, than

429
00:20:40,247 --> 00:20:42,077
our kind of political class has been.

430
00:20:42,377 --> 00:20:45,077
So I think that's a
particularly dangerous time.

431
00:20:45,497 --> 00:20:47,597
For, you know, because we hear all
the time about all politicians are so

432
00:20:47,597 --> 00:20:50,567
outta touch, this is a way in which
people really feel that their, their

433
00:20:50,567 --> 00:20:51,827
voices weren't, weren't being heard.

434
00:20:51,917 --> 00:20:56,477
And now more than 250 mps from across
the parties have all signed a letter

435
00:20:56,657 --> 00:21:00,167
put together by Sarai champion and
calling, um, for a Palestinian state.

436
00:21:00,657 --> 00:21:03,657
Now to some extent, that's
a symbolic question.

437
00:21:03,657 --> 00:21:04,887
At this point in time, I don't

438
00:21:04,887 --> 00:21:05,967
believe we get to make the call.

439
00:21:05,967 --> 00:21:06,597
Right, exactly.

440
00:21:07,167 --> 00:21:10,857
Since Mandate Palestine, it's not really
up to us anymore, but nonetheless, it's

441
00:21:10,857 --> 00:21:13,917
a, it's a point about the fact that lots
of mps are constantly hearing from their

442
00:21:13,917 --> 00:21:17,277
constituents and not just people with,
uh, large numbers of Muslim constituents,

443
00:21:17,277 --> 00:21:20,397
although you'll note those people
are really well represented in this.

444
00:21:20,637 --> 00:21:24,357
But across the political spectrum, people
are feeling real unhappiness from people.

445
00:21:24,357 --> 00:21:29,217
It's not a kind of lefty liberal
hand ringing kind of concern.

446
00:21:29,217 --> 00:21:29,697
This one,

447
00:21:29,997 --> 00:21:33,807
and I think there the realization has
dawned that there are protests in Israel.

448
00:21:33,812 --> 00:21:37,767
There are opposition newspapers,
um, in Israel written by Israelis,

449
00:21:37,767 --> 00:21:39,344
which have been rather more strident.

450
00:21:39,551 --> 00:21:44,891
than any press in Britain I think there
the last few days and, you know, a

451
00:21:44,891 --> 00:21:50,081
couple of really shocking pictures and
videos have slightly changed the climate.

452
00:21:50,366 --> 00:21:54,806
Yeah, so, uh, Benjamin Ashu has said
there is quotes no starvation in Gaza,

453
00:21:55,196 --> 00:21:59,006
and there is a lot of kind of truth theism
around about some of the more, um, high

454
00:21:59,006 --> 00:22:02,396
profile photos saying that one of the,
the babies who look really malnourished

455
00:22:02,396 --> 00:22:04,106
actually has a kind of muscular disorder.

456
00:22:04,316 --> 00:22:06,446
Nonetheless, you know, there are just.

457
00:22:06,661 --> 00:22:10,021
So many reports from inside that aid has
been having difficulties getting through.

458
00:22:10,021 --> 00:22:13,711
It's, you know that the food cues
per your joke are really violent and

459
00:22:13,711 --> 00:22:15,121
dangerous for people to get into.

460
00:22:15,331 --> 00:22:18,541
To the extent that Trump was asked
about it this week in Turnberry,

461
00:22:18,541 --> 00:22:21,871
in his appearance with Kier, and
he said, this is a classic Trump

462
00:22:21,871 --> 00:22:23,941
answer from what I see on tv.

463
00:22:23,941 --> 00:22:25,056
A lot of people look hungry.

464
00:22:25,956 --> 00:22:28,056
That's, that's how he
does his policy making.

465
00:22:28,116 --> 00:22:31,984
And, and you know, but, but you know,
and the fact is that Israel has declared

466
00:22:31,984 --> 00:22:34,137
an effective ceasefire daylight hours.

467
00:22:34,137 --> 00:22:37,017
In order to get aid to get through
is the closest you'll ever get to a

468
00:22:37,017 --> 00:22:40,137
kind of concession that actually the
situation had become intolerable.

469
00:22:40,380 --> 00:22:42,720
you know, one of my friends said they'd
just seen the picture of that baby and

470
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,190
gone home and hugged their own baby.

471
00:22:44,190 --> 00:22:44,370
Right.

472
00:22:44,370 --> 00:22:47,580
I just think lots of people, particularly
parents, see photos like that and it

473
00:22:47,580 --> 00:22:49,440
hits them really, really viscerally.

474
00:22:49,657 --> 00:22:52,507
I think you're right as well about the
way that it's crossing the usual lines.

475
00:22:52,507 --> 00:22:53,737
It isn't just the usual suspects.

476
00:22:53,767 --> 00:22:57,187
Um, I was really interesting that
one of the first papers to go big on

477
00:22:57,187 --> 00:22:59,678
those photos last week in the sort
of live aid type presentation of.

478
00:23:00,222 --> 00:23:03,462
We need to do something about, this was
the Daily Express, which did a, a full

479
00:23:03,462 --> 00:23:06,192
page, really, really shocking picture
of one, one of those emaciated children.

480
00:23:06,402 --> 00:23:09,852
So, you know, it, it isn't just, as
you say, you know, a le lefty rabble

481
00:23:09,852 --> 00:23:11,022
browsers that are onto this one.

482
00:23:11,022 --> 00:23:12,972
It is really crossing a
lot of political lines.

483
00:23:13,062 --> 00:23:15,942
Well, like Alan Kirby, the um,
Syrian little boy who dry coming

484
00:23:15,942 --> 00:23:18,462
off a boat, you know, and that was
across the media, including right

485
00:23:18,462 --> 00:23:21,372
wing papers who otherwise are very
concerned about illegal boat crossings.

486
00:23:21,642 --> 00:23:23,892
I think there is just a thing that
people really don't like to see

487
00:23:23,892 --> 00:23:27,312
pictures of children suffering and,
you know, you would have to be.

488
00:23:27,792 --> 00:23:30,552
Even more outta touch than Donald
Trump not to recognize that, which

489
00:23:30,552 --> 00:23:33,372
is unfortunately, it turns out where
Benjamin Netanyahu is right now.

490
00:23:33,822 --> 00:23:34,182
Right.

491
00:23:34,272 --> 00:23:38,932
And also the, the Netanyahu line that,
Israel has the right to defend itself,

492
00:23:38,932 --> 00:23:43,402
does not extend in most people's
imaginations to starving children.

493
00:23:43,402 --> 00:23:45,022
And that becomes an issue.

494
00:23:45,022 --> 00:23:48,892
And when he says, um, there's
nothing I can do about this, then.

495
00:23:49,237 --> 00:23:51,307
Decides, yes, there is
something I can do about this.

496
00:23:51,337 --> 00:23:54,747
'cause internationally this is
getting a bit, hot even for him.

497
00:23:55,077 --> 00:23:59,457
Then somehow there are, ways, of
defending the convoys that come in.

498
00:23:59,637 --> 00:24:02,547
There are ways to pause
the fighting, suddenly.

499
00:24:03,027 --> 00:24:05,597
This, problem is not insoluble.

500
00:24:05,777 --> 00:24:08,717
Um, and that I think is,
is a fairly major giveaway.

501
00:24:08,897 --> 00:24:09,197
Mm-hmm.

502
00:24:09,467 --> 00:24:12,827
Questions about free speech always end
up coming down to questions about power.

503
00:24:13,127 --> 00:24:13,337
Right.

504
00:24:13,337 --> 00:24:14,597
Who are you allowed to criticize?

505
00:24:14,597 --> 00:24:17,417
Who are you, which our groups
necessarily treated the same.

506
00:24:17,657 --> 00:24:20,927
And so, you know, this is something that
I think you'd find traditionally left wing

507
00:24:20,927 --> 00:24:24,242
Palestine protesters to say, we are not
being treated the same at the same time.

508
00:24:24,242 --> 00:24:24,602
You'll get.

509
00:24:25,042 --> 00:24:28,972
There's big, big moves on the right to
say things like, the people who supported

510
00:24:28,972 --> 00:24:32,842
the riots last year, you know, have
have received unduly harsh sentences.

511
00:24:33,112 --> 00:24:35,482
You know that they will say that
you can't criticize immigration,

512
00:24:35,482 --> 00:24:36,652
you can't criticize small boats.

513
00:24:36,652 --> 00:24:39,092
These are clamped down on, I
think all of these arguments

514
00:24:39,092 --> 00:24:40,087
end up to some extent becoming.

515
00:24:40,887 --> 00:24:43,977
What Abouty, which goes back to your
point, Ian, which is the idea that you

516
00:24:43,977 --> 00:24:48,904
just need to have some sort of broader
principles and the police need to be seen

517
00:24:48,904 --> 00:24:53,254
to applying them equally, not based on who
is a favored or disfavored group to the

518
00:24:53,254 --> 00:24:54,479
police at that particular point in time.

519
00:24:55,414 --> 00:24:56,194
I think you're absolutely right.

520
00:24:56,194 --> 00:24:59,014
I mean, the, the, the kind of key one
on, on, on that side is the case of

521
00:24:59,014 --> 00:25:03,484
Lucy Connolly, who, uh, was the woman
who tweeted an incredibly offensive,

522
00:25:03,514 --> 00:25:06,807
um, um, and tweet at the time of
those riots last summer, uh, well

523
00:25:06,807 --> 00:25:09,118
she called for an asylum hostel
to be set on fire, didn't she?

524
00:25:09,172 --> 00:25:09,462
Yeah.

525
00:25:09,507 --> 00:25:12,357
She said to set on fire, I don't
care, burn the bastar for all I care.

526
00:25:12,537 --> 00:25:15,387
She did think better of it, but she
had this slight misfortune that by

527
00:25:15,387 --> 00:25:20,307
that point it had been, um, reposted
940 times and viewed 310,000 times,

528
00:25:20,457 --> 00:25:21,417
which is one of those cases of.

529
00:25:21,612 --> 00:25:25,662
Where the line is between social media and
just something you might say to a friend

530
00:25:25,662 --> 00:25:27,222
in a kind of hotheaded moment, isn't it?

531
00:25:27,252 --> 00:25:28,692
Because that, that, that
went slightly beyond it.

532
00:25:28,872 --> 00:25:31,812
But she was, and this has become a sort
of core celebrity in certain circles.

533
00:25:32,002 --> 00:25:34,972
She pleaded guilty to inciting racial
hatred, but she was given an, in what

534
00:25:34,972 --> 00:25:37,792
does seem to me like an incredibly
harsh sentence, 31 months, which is

535
00:25:37,972 --> 00:25:40,462
way beyond some of the people who are
actually physically involved in some

536
00:25:40,462 --> 00:25:41,872
of the violence out those protests.

537
00:25:42,172 --> 00:25:43,972
Um, but there's an odd line
with that because it's.

538
00:25:43,977 --> 00:25:46,557
Become such a cause
celebrity on, on the right.

539
00:25:46,557 --> 00:25:51,687
Now that it's sort of the unfairness of
the sentence has been kind of looked over

540
00:25:51,687 --> 00:25:54,897
into this, this more sort of, it should
be an absolute free for all and anyone

541
00:25:54,897 --> 00:25:56,517
should be allowed to say anything online.

542
00:25:56,607 --> 00:25:56,877
Yes.

543
00:25:56,877 --> 00:26:00,777
The, I mean, the argument has moved
from, is 31 months excessive to, well,

544
00:26:00,777 --> 00:26:02,457
she should have the right to say that.

545
00:26:02,733 --> 00:26:06,361
The traditional line is that, um,
uh, we all believe in freedom of

546
00:26:06,361 --> 00:26:10,981
speech, but that doesn't extend to
shouting fire in a crowded theater.

547
00:26:11,191 --> 00:26:15,121
But nowadays, what people are shouting
is, let's set fire to the theater.

548
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,360
Which is slightly different.

549
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:19,700
And I would say the Connolly
case does prove that.

550
00:26:19,767 --> 00:26:24,087
can I ask, I know this varies a lot
internationally, and I read one argument

551
00:26:24,087 --> 00:26:28,887
claiming that had Lucy Connolly written
that tweet in America, given that it did

552
00:26:28,887 --> 00:26:34,950
not call for a specific act of violence,
for example, she would most likely not

553
00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:37,410
have been arrested, charged, imprisoned.

554
00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:41,156
So is this, I mean, is there a
difference between saying, I would

555
00:26:41,156 --> 00:26:44,654
like this particular person to be
attacked and saying, oh, Burned

556
00:26:44,654 --> 00:26:45,734
the lot down for all I care.

557
00:26:46,154 --> 00:26:48,644
Well, again, I think this comes back to
that initial point that we made about

558
00:26:48,644 --> 00:26:52,634
these guidelines need to be really,
really carefully drafted because, I

559
00:26:52,634 --> 00:26:56,024
mean, I've read stuff by, by very eminent
legal commentators saying Actually,

560
00:26:56,024 --> 00:26:58,544
you know, according to the sentencing
guidelines, this was completely,

561
00:26:58,634 --> 00:26:59,654
it went to the court of appeal.

562
00:26:59,654 --> 00:27:03,884
Who, who said that it wasn't manifestly
unjustly, it stands as a sentence.

563
00:27:04,154 --> 00:27:06,314
But in that case, maybe we do need
to have a look at the sentencing

564
00:27:06,314 --> 00:27:07,034
guidelines on that thing.

565
00:27:07,034 --> 00:27:10,438
'cause that does seem a crazy
situation where inciting violence

566
00:27:10,498 --> 00:27:13,198
gets, gets a harsher sentence
than committing violence itself.

567
00:27:13,461 --> 00:27:13,791
Yeah.

568
00:27:13,791 --> 00:27:16,221
And the Scott in Scotland, they
wanted to go even further than that.

569
00:27:16,221 --> 00:27:19,191
They wanted an offensive stirring
up hatred that you could be, uh,

570
00:27:19,221 --> 00:27:20,781
guilty or even in, in your own home.

571
00:27:20,781 --> 00:27:23,691
Even in kind of Adam's example of saying
it to your, your own family, right.

572
00:27:23,931 --> 00:27:25,311
Which didn't ever, ever go through.

573
00:27:25,311 --> 00:27:28,851
But like there are, that is
definitely a force in political life

574
00:27:28,851 --> 00:27:31,611
at the moment, is that people do
want more restrictions on speech.

575
00:27:31,821 --> 00:27:34,791
And look, I can see why, you know,
I think lots of people feel very.

576
00:27:35,046 --> 00:27:37,206
Worried about violence and harm.

577
00:27:37,206 --> 00:27:38,886
You know, I know lots of Jewish
people feel that there's been

578
00:27:38,886 --> 00:27:40,746
a real uptick in antisemitism.

579
00:27:40,986 --> 00:27:44,736
And if you go on some of those Palestine
marches, I, I went on one now, 18

580
00:27:44,736 --> 00:27:48,936
months ago, and the vast majority of
people there were completely peaceful

581
00:27:48,936 --> 00:27:51,336
and making a legitimate al statement.

582
00:27:51,486 --> 00:27:55,746
But there were also really grim vile
signs that were slipped in amongst them.

583
00:27:55,926 --> 00:27:58,116
And this again, I think comes
back to the how much can the

584
00:27:58,116 --> 00:27:59,616
police be expected to do that?

585
00:27:59,616 --> 00:28:02,473
They always have to make a call
when there are things that obviously

586
00:28:02,473 --> 00:28:04,213
cross the line about is it worth.

587
00:28:04,213 --> 00:28:06,343
The ruck to go in and sort that out?

588
00:28:06,343 --> 00:28:08,653
Or are we actually gonna, at that
point, does it tip into violence?

589
00:28:08,653 --> 00:28:08,833
Right.

590
00:28:08,833 --> 00:28:09,223
They are making.

591
00:28:09,659 --> 00:28:11,309
Fine policing distinctions.

592
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,121
and they were criticized on a number of
those marches for not arresting people

593
00:28:15,181 --> 00:28:19,441
who had paraglider symbols on their
back on the grounds that, um, well,

594
00:28:19,441 --> 00:28:20,821
we're not quite sure what that means.

595
00:28:21,001 --> 00:28:25,651
And then those people were subsequently
arrested after public pressure and

596
00:28:25,651 --> 00:28:29,949
then were not given, a custodial
sentence, if you remember, on the

597
00:28:29,949 --> 00:28:31,989
grounds that emotions were running high.

598
00:28:32,296 --> 00:28:35,596
we, we should say that Paragliders
being the ones that we used by Hamas

599
00:28:35,716 --> 00:28:37,936
in, in the October attacks on Israel.

600
00:28:38,026 --> 00:28:38,176
Yeah.

601
00:28:38,176 --> 00:28:40,096
So it cuts both ways.

602
00:28:40,096 --> 00:28:41,836
This why don't the police act?

603
00:28:41,998 --> 00:28:46,678
usually because they're not quite
sure or because as you said earlier,

604
00:28:46,738 --> 00:28:47,908
they're worried about stirring up.

605
00:28:48,553 --> 00:28:54,083
Real trouble, um, in which, uh, arresting
people, turns into something else.

606
00:28:54,113 --> 00:28:58,133
I mean, all these points are appreciated,
but, uh, the essential principle

607
00:28:58,133 --> 00:29:01,763
is, um, if people are committing an
offense, they should be arrested.

608
00:29:01,793 --> 00:29:02,813
If they're not, they shouldn't.

609
00:29:03,069 --> 00:29:03,279
that's

610
00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:04,419
inherent to the problem, isn't it?

611
00:29:04,419 --> 00:29:07,509
I mean, having covered the feminism
wars for more than a decade, the

612
00:29:07,509 --> 00:29:11,649
problem is when you give police the
ability to make these distinctions,

613
00:29:11,649 --> 00:29:15,129
they tend to err on the side of who is
quite easy to arrest and right in front

614
00:29:15,129 --> 00:29:19,089
of me now, rather than like dealing
with mobile phone thefts or whatever.

615
00:29:19,089 --> 00:29:19,689
So there have been some.

616
00:29:19,924 --> 00:29:23,404
Kind of really, you know, like
people, uh, uh, uh, you know, someone

617
00:29:23,404 --> 00:29:26,614
said at some point the suffragette
ribbons were a threatening sign.

618
00:29:26,614 --> 00:29:29,494
You know, that there, there is
just this wildly over expansion

619
00:29:29,494 --> 00:29:30,694
of what constitutes threat.

620
00:29:30,888 --> 00:29:33,378
you know, there are people within
labor who'd like to bring back

621
00:29:33,468 --> 00:29:35,208
blasphemy laws, for example, right?

622
00:29:35,388 --> 00:29:39,408
As a kind of way of saying religious
offenses also kind of a harm.

623
00:29:39,888 --> 00:29:44,328
And at the same time, you've got this much
greater idea that speech can cause harm.

624
00:29:45,141 --> 00:29:47,571
There's just been two, this
is tangentially related.

625
00:29:47,901 --> 00:29:50,451
Two Jewish comedians have just
been, had their bookings canceled

626
00:29:50,451 --> 00:29:51,651
at the, uh, Edburg Fringe.

627
00:29:51,651 --> 00:29:55,161
And one of the, uh, rationales given
was the venue saying, our staff

628
00:29:55,161 --> 00:29:56,451
are worried about being unsafe.

629
00:29:56,811 --> 00:30:00,201
Now this used to happen to feminist
meetups all the time during the 2010s, and

630
00:30:00,201 --> 00:30:03,081
the problem was, it was essentially saying
we're gonna have protestors and we can.

631
00:30:03,111 --> 00:30:03,861
Hack that.

632
00:30:04,231 --> 00:30:07,111
, Back in 2020, I was supposed to be
doing an event at the South Bank Women

633
00:30:07,111 --> 00:30:11,162
of the World Festival for Difficult
Women, and on my panel were Amad Weer.

634
00:30:11,431 --> 00:30:13,081
Played netball for England.

635
00:30:13,321 --> 00:30:17,161
Aisha has Eureka, who's now in the
Lords, and Julie Bindle, the feminist

636
00:30:17,161 --> 00:30:19,891
campaign on lots of things including
grooming, gangs, and also gender.

637
00:30:20,251 --> 00:30:24,061
And I got a phone call from the venue
two nights before saying the staff union

638
00:30:24,061 --> 00:30:27,541
has said that because Julie Bindle is
going to be there, they don't feel safe.

639
00:30:27,991 --> 00:30:30,151
And I thought, she gonna
like, heck you about.

640
00:30:30,151 --> 00:30:30,901
She doesn't like Pan Tony.

641
00:30:30,901 --> 00:30:32,701
That's about the worst
thing that's gonna happen.

642
00:30:33,331 --> 00:30:35,761
But it was, and, and they tried
to, you know, essentially get

643
00:30:35,761 --> 00:30:37,681
me to cancel her on her behalf.

644
00:30:37,681 --> 00:30:40,771
And I said, well, look, if she walks, I
walk and I phone the other two panelists

645
00:30:40,771 --> 00:30:42,871
and they said the same and it went ahead.

646
00:30:43,021 --> 00:30:43,621
And guess what?

647
00:30:43,621 --> 00:30:47,101
We didn't even talk about trans stuff,
which was obviously what was behind it,

648
00:30:47,431 --> 00:30:48,666
because the book isn't about that, the.

649
00:30:48,906 --> 00:30:52,176
But it was this sense that you could
suddenly just get anything canceled

650
00:30:52,176 --> 00:30:53,676
just by saying it's a safety issue.

651
00:30:53,676 --> 00:30:54,426
It's a safety issue.

652
00:30:54,426 --> 00:30:55,146
It's a safety issue.

653
00:30:55,416 --> 00:30:58,416
And I think there has to be a certain
level of robustness that people can be

654
00:30:58,416 --> 00:31:02,466
incredibly offensive up to the point of
invoking really unpleasant stereotypes.

655
00:31:02,736 --> 00:31:06,606
Nonetheless, it is not the
same as violence and I, and

656
00:31:06,606 --> 00:31:09,456
I think that distinction is,
is increasingly getting lost

657
00:31:09,676 --> 00:31:14,795
and I, I think just saying, the staff are
either feeling unsafe or being unsafe.

658
00:31:14,975 --> 00:31:16,835
It would mean very little gets published.

659
00:31:17,565 --> 00:31:21,525
I mean, certainly the Satanic verses,
um, but all the controversy after that.

660
00:31:21,675 --> 00:31:26,591
One of the things that, that, brought
up was if people are sufficiently

661
00:31:26,591 --> 00:31:29,831
violent in their reaction to what
they perceive to be blasphemy,

662
00:31:30,221 --> 00:31:31,631
uh, then nothing gets published.

663
00:31:31,946 --> 00:31:36,656
and again, I don't think that is, uh, a
position that the law should be taking.

664
00:31:36,986 --> 00:31:40,586
I mean, I remember feeling not entirely
comfortable in this very office in 2015,

665
00:31:40,586 --> 00:31:44,816
the week after the Charlie Hebdo massacre,
when every single news, uh, news, um,

666
00:31:44,906 --> 00:31:48,446
broadcast seemed to be describing it as
the equivalent of private eye in the uk.

667
00:31:48,956 --> 00:31:51,716
Oh, we're really not actually,
but you know, you turn up because

668
00:31:51,716 --> 00:31:52,871
you believe in something and you.

669
00:31:53,581 --> 00:31:56,491
You do the work, and I probably would
feel better if I was different about

670
00:31:56,491 --> 00:31:59,510
it, if I was, you know, behind the bar
on minimum wage in Edinburgh venue.

671
00:31:59,510 --> 00:32:00,200
But again,

672
00:32:00,620 --> 00:32:01,010
but sure.

673
00:32:01,010 --> 00:32:03,590
When I was reading it, I was thinking
about your Tommy Wild Blood novels and

674
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:07,370
the fact that so many LGBT campaigners
through the seventies and eighties,

675
00:32:07,730 --> 00:32:11,120
they went to work in drag shows and
in standups when they knew there'd

676
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:12,890
be a, might be well be a police raid.

677
00:32:12,890 --> 00:32:13,010
Right.

678
00:32:13,010 --> 00:32:14,000
And they'd all be carted off.

679
00:32:14,030 --> 00:32:14,120
Mm-hmm.

680
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:15,620
Like that was real bravery.

681
00:32:15,620 --> 00:32:16,520
If you believe in.

682
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,240
A certain level of free speech.

683
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,670
You know, you, there are risks that you
take them, and I think if you work in a

684
00:32:20,670 --> 00:32:24,870
venue that is a comedy venue or a standup
venue or a free speech venue, that's

685
00:32:24,870 --> 00:32:26,970
sort of part of the, the vibe, isn't it?

686
00:32:26,970 --> 00:32:30,450
There there are other other bars you could
work in that are completely apolitical.

687
00:32:30,653 --> 00:32:32,573
Well, two of those acts are
apolitical, aren't they?

688
00:32:32,750 --> 00:32:35,510
Well, so the one of the comedian,
one of the comedians that had,

689
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,420
had, they essentially done what I
consider to be slightly tedious.

690
00:32:38,420 --> 00:32:41,150
What about online saying, oh,
you're protesting about Palestine,

691
00:32:41,150 --> 00:32:42,290
but what about the hostages?

692
00:32:42,740 --> 00:32:45,290
Now I just find that's a sort of
route one thing when you just want

693
00:32:45,290 --> 00:32:48,860
to kind of, you know, just make
everybody just derail what everyone's

694
00:32:48,860 --> 00:32:51,200
currently talking about, mate, and
talk about what you want to talk about.

695
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:54,350
But it's absolutely legitimate
level of free speech.

696
00:32:54,965 --> 00:32:57,665
Disagree with his emphasis
in that particular conflict.

697
00:32:57,825 --> 00:33:00,885
It was a Jewish cabaret involving
Jewish and non-Jewish artists.

698
00:33:00,885 --> 00:33:03,705
And then a show called Ultimate
Jewish Mother, which I'm just

699
00:33:03,705 --> 00:33:07,155
gonna guess was probably about
like having a Jewish mother.

700
00:33:07,545 --> 00:33:10,035
I mean, maybe, maybe it was a trenchant
commentary on the Middle East.

701
00:33:10,035 --> 00:33:12,625
But that's the problem is that
there's just an incredible

702
00:33:12,625 --> 00:33:14,635
heckler veto on, on speech.

703
00:33:14,815 --> 00:33:17,605
And then I think the same thing happens
with these groups, which is saying

704
00:33:17,785 --> 00:33:20,995
even voicing support for someone
is the same as doing it, you know?

705
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,305
, That the speech itself is
seen as a kind of harm.

706
00:33:23,305 --> 00:33:26,168
So this is what I mean about
favored and disfavored groups.

707
00:33:26,983 --> 00:33:31,033
I, I came into this debate in the 2010s
from the kind of feminist perspective of

708
00:33:31,033 --> 00:33:35,563
the internet was causing a huge uptick
in abuse of women and minorities thinking

709
00:33:35,563 --> 00:33:36,763
something should be done about that.

710
00:33:36,973 --> 00:33:40,453
And actually almost every time I've
seen tightening up of speech laws, it

711
00:33:40,453 --> 00:33:44,863
has ended up affecting whoever has got
the currently unfashionable opinions.

712
00:33:45,016 --> 00:33:46,936
And I'm just not sure
you can get past that.

713
00:33:47,193 --> 00:33:49,143
Something that really struck me
in that reading the headlines

714
00:33:49,143 --> 00:33:49,863
over the last few days.

715
00:33:50,183 --> 00:33:53,273
Sunday telegraph's reaction to the news
that police are gonna be monitoring

716
00:33:53,273 --> 00:33:56,243
social media in an attempt to sort
of stave off any anymore protests

717
00:33:56,243 --> 00:33:57,683
and riots outside of asylum hotels.

718
00:33:57,683 --> 00:34:00,023
Like last year, this was absolutely
presented as kind of like,

719
00:34:00,023 --> 00:34:02,573
this is Big Brother, this is
Allwell, and this is the stary.

720
00:34:02,573 --> 00:34:03,473
They are spying on it.

721
00:34:04,013 --> 00:34:05,933
And then the other stories I've been
reading recently been particularly about

722
00:34:05,933 --> 00:34:08,513
the failures of the Prevent program
and that they didn't intervene earlier

723
00:34:08,513 --> 00:34:11,573
with David Amos and they didn't pick
up on all of these signs of extremism

724
00:34:11,573 --> 00:34:14,423
in, in, in either his killer or the,
uh, the Southport killer either.

725
00:34:14,673 --> 00:34:16,023
You can't have it both ways.

726
00:34:16,023 --> 00:34:18,033
I mean, if, if Chatter is out there on.

727
00:34:18,128 --> 00:34:21,338
Open source information, which is
effectively what social media is.

728
00:34:21,578 --> 00:34:24,488
You cannot object to the police taking
interest or anyone else taking interest.

729
00:34:24,608 --> 00:34:26,798
If you're putting that stuff out
there, it's gonna get reacted to,

730
00:34:26,798 --> 00:34:28,988
including by law enforcement agencies.

731
00:34:29,368 --> 00:34:30,088
, There's a piece,

732
00:34:30,142 --> 00:34:34,462
in the Telegraph this week, which
is really outraged about, uh.

733
00:34:34,847 --> 00:34:38,507
A pro-Palestinian kind of
perma protest in nine Elms.

734
00:34:38,507 --> 00:34:42,557
It's near the American Embassy
and it consists of, uh, some tents

735
00:34:42,557 --> 00:34:46,967
and it consists of a, a kind of
open kitchen and it's on a bit

736
00:34:46,967 --> 00:34:47,927
of the foot bath near the river.

737
00:34:47,927 --> 00:34:48,977
I've walked past it a few times.

738
00:34:48,982 --> 00:34:49,282
Yeah, I've seen that

739
00:34:49,282 --> 00:34:50,082
when I'm in the embassy.

740
00:34:50,082 --> 00:34:50,242
Yeah.

741
00:34:50,447 --> 00:34:50,747
Yeah.

742
00:34:50,747 --> 00:34:54,153
It's, um, it's not, I would
say severely in anyone's way.

743
00:34:54,153 --> 00:34:55,923
No, I don't, it's not
disruptive or threatening.

744
00:34:55,923 --> 00:34:56,103
Right.

745
00:34:56,108 --> 00:34:59,803
I don't live directly next to it,
but I, I. Yeah, I don't believe there

746
00:34:59,803 --> 00:35:01,093
have been sort of direct threats.

747
00:35:01,333 --> 00:35:02,083
It's not as annoying as

748
00:35:02,083 --> 00:35:04,003
Steve Bray, his bloody accordion.

749
00:35:04,063 --> 00:35:05,653
Well, outside parliament.

750
00:35:05,653 --> 00:35:06,013
Yeah.

751
00:35:06,163 --> 00:35:07,063
But um.

752
00:35:07,759 --> 00:35:11,114
That is, uh, so the subject of a piece
in the Telegraph with a lot of really

753
00:35:11,114 --> 00:35:13,934
outraged people saying, well, the police
should shut this down immediately.

754
00:35:13,934 --> 00:35:14,024
Mm-hmm.

755
00:35:14,264 --> 00:35:17,804
their other state of position has been
much more on the other side of the coin.

756
00:35:17,804 --> 00:35:21,074
So it slightly goes back to Helen's
point about favored groups or,

757
00:35:21,074 --> 00:35:23,595
or just who you want to have the
microphone and anyone turn and.

758
00:35:24,039 --> 00:35:27,879
Free speech tends to be, I
believe in the freedom for you to

759
00:35:27,879 --> 00:35:29,379
speak things that I agree with.

760
00:35:29,929 --> 00:35:33,909
Um, and Elon Musk and the whole of Twitter
is a perfectly good example of this.

761
00:35:33,939 --> 00:35:37,569
What he wanted to see on Twitter
were, were people who agreed with him.

762
00:35:37,869 --> 00:35:39,219
And that's what you get now.

763
00:35:39,219 --> 00:35:42,069
And, and people who are even
to the right of him and now

764
00:35:42,069 --> 00:35:43,479
free to say whatever they like.

765
00:35:43,629 --> 00:35:46,299
If you're going to make a case
of freedom of speech, it, it does

766
00:35:46,299 --> 00:35:50,499
have to include opinions that you
don't like and don't agree with.

767
00:35:50,559 --> 00:35:52,689
I mean, it's, it's, it's all well, really,

768
00:35:52,975 --> 00:35:56,695
Ian, do you have a kind of benchmark
of what free speed absolutism is,

769
00:35:56,695 --> 00:36:01,375
or do you think there are really
examples in which you can go too far

770
00:36:01,375 --> 00:36:05,035
in supporting the right but beyond
incitement to actual physical violence?

771
00:36:05,185 --> 00:36:09,260
I think my own freedom to say and print
whatever I feel like has always been.

772
00:36:10,060 --> 00:36:10,960
Um, primary,

773
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,720
but I do expect other
people to go beyond that.

774
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,510
I think that probably is a rule that
everyone could agree on that what they

775
00:36:19,510 --> 00:36:21,490
want to say count as freedom of speech.

776
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,130
Anyone else is, is hate speech.

777
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,870
Your other rule, which is essentially.

778
00:36:25,925 --> 00:36:28,895
Never tweet, have you considered
not posting on social media?

779
00:36:28,895 --> 00:36:31,175
And has also I think, been
vindicated by history.

780
00:36:31,355 --> 00:36:31,535
Right.

781
00:36:31,535 --> 00:36:33,845
Which is, when you were saying that,
Adam, I was thinking if you don't

782
00:36:33,845 --> 00:36:36,755
want the police to read your lads,
let's all meet down the, you know,

783
00:36:36,845 --> 00:36:38,345
pick and whistle and have a riot.

784
00:36:38,825 --> 00:36:40,415
Maybe don't put it on Facebook.

785
00:36:40,445 --> 00:36:41,825
Maybe just, well, I
think the think is that

786
00:36:41,825 --> 00:36:44,075
still, where are we at 20
years into social media now?

787
00:36:44,075 --> 00:36:45,785
People haven't worked out what it's for.

788
00:36:45,875 --> 00:36:48,065
People haven't worked out, whether
it is chatting to your mates down

789
00:36:48,065 --> 00:36:51,545
the pub or whether it is as it
legally is actually publishing stuff,

790
00:36:51,545 --> 00:36:53,195
which can be seen by other people.

791
00:36:53,255 --> 00:36:53,555
Yeah.

792
00:36:53,805 --> 00:36:57,585
, If you were organizing something
in the old days through setting

793
00:36:57,585 --> 00:37:00,675
up a a, a newsletter or something
and sending out to people and

794
00:37:00,675 --> 00:37:02,445
saying, let's have a ruck down at.

795
00:37:02,565 --> 00:37:06,605
Hmm, it's the mill wall
ground out outta thin air.

796
00:37:06,605 --> 00:37:08,075
Other football clubs are available.

797
00:37:08,255 --> 00:37:10,745
Then, you know, you would expect the
police to take an interest in that.

798
00:37:11,045 --> 00:37:13,895
If you're doing that on Facebook,
or just on Twitter off your own

799
00:37:13,895 --> 00:37:15,545
bat, then you know it's out there.

800
00:37:15,575 --> 00:37:16,205
It's public.

801
00:37:16,235 --> 00:37:17,735
People are going to take
an interest in that.

802
00:37:17,885 --> 00:37:20,735
People are gonna react to that, whether
they agree with you or very much ly

803
00:37:20,855 --> 00:37:22,040
disagree with you or think it's illegal.

804
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,940
Yeah, I mean there is no, that gets
into a wider question about, which

805
00:37:25,940 --> 00:37:28,670
is a free speech question about how
much should the social networks be

806
00:37:28,670 --> 00:37:33,470
responsible for the, the riot encouraging
slop that they, that they allow and

807
00:37:33,470 --> 00:37:35,630
they have just taken a view that it's
absolutely nothing to do with them.

808
00:37:35,630 --> 00:37:38,030
They're just platforms in a way
which you as editor, this magazine

809
00:37:38,030 --> 00:37:39,200
would simply wouldn't be able to do.

810
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,250
Just hold your heads up and go.

811
00:37:40,460 --> 00:37:42,290
Some contributor put
something in at last minute.

812
00:37:42,290 --> 00:37:43,910
I'm, I can't be held responsible.

813
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:44,600
Well, that's pretty much

814
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:44,990
how they did it.

815
00:37:44,990 --> 00:37:45,830
The spectator, isn't it?

816
00:37:45,830 --> 00:37:47,120
We're tacky for many, many years.

817
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,160
Whenever he wrote a racist
column, they just go, well,

818
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:49,970
you know, I'm only the editor.

819
00:37:49,970 --> 00:37:51,444
I can't tell him what to write.

820
00:37:51,444 --> 00:37:52,520
I can't tell him not to write in praise.

821
00:37:52,820 --> 00:37:53,840
It's been your approach, has it?

822
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:54,440
Uh,

823
00:37:54,525 --> 00:37:54,745
no.

824
00:37:55,163 --> 00:37:58,763
And I do, do agree with Helen, the
idea that you just put on one of

825
00:37:58,763 --> 00:38:02,903
your platforms, something that is not
only manifestly untrue, but is likely

826
00:38:02,903 --> 00:38:04,833
to, stoke up a riot straight away.

827
00:38:05,645 --> 00:38:07,895
shortly after you've
just had some real riots.

828
00:38:08,015 --> 00:38:12,386
I mean, it seems to be reasonable to
expect people to take some care with that.

829
00:38:12,540 --> 00:38:14,460
What we really need to talk
about though is the fact that

830
00:38:14,550 --> 00:38:16,050
Adam is ringing his shame bell.

831
00:38:16,290 --> 00:38:16,890
Ah, yes.

832
00:38:16,890 --> 00:38:21,030
In audibly it's a very high pitch
shame bell, so young, only younger

833
00:38:21,030 --> 00:38:21,901
listeners will able to hear it.

834
00:38:21,906 --> 00:38:22,315
It's a whistle.

835
00:38:23,025 --> 00:38:23,435
It's what?

836
00:38:23,515 --> 00:38:26,820
It's, we come to the bit of
the podcast just like on page

837
00:38:26,820 --> 00:38:28,890
two of a newspaper, corrections

838
00:38:28,890 --> 00:38:29,820
and clarification.

839
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:30,570
Exactly.

840
00:38:31,215 --> 00:38:34,935
Um, I wish to apologize, uh, in
a previous episode of page nine

841
00:38:34,935 --> 00:38:35,805
four, the Private Eye podcast.

842
00:38:35,805 --> 00:38:37,935
Specifically our questions
and answers to listeners.

843
00:38:37,935 --> 00:38:39,675
One, I think it was last
February, wasn't it?

844
00:38:39,915 --> 00:38:43,035
We talked about amongst other
things, um, super injunctions

845
00:38:43,275 --> 00:38:44,775
and I said very, very clearly.

846
00:38:44,775 --> 00:38:48,135
As far as I know, they are a thing of the
past and I'm pretty certain about this.

847
00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:52,379
Listeners, I was wrong, as you will
know by now, there was one very, very

848
00:38:52,379 --> 00:38:55,409
spectacular and longstanding super
injunction, uh, which was awarded

849
00:38:55,409 --> 00:38:59,568
to the MOD, the Ministry of Defense
back in, uh, August August, 2023.

850
00:38:59,768 --> 00:39:02,288
It was massive headline news over
the last few weeks to summarize it.

851
00:39:02,288 --> 00:39:06,848
Basically it was about the leak of
a list of names, uh, of, uh, Afghan

852
00:39:06,848 --> 00:39:10,178
people who were being considered for
resettlement after the disastrous

853
00:39:10,178 --> 00:39:11,498
withdrawal from Afghanistan.

854
00:39:11,828 --> 00:39:15,548
The MOD didn't actually realize
the list had been put out there by

855
00:39:15,548 --> 00:39:17,378
accident, uh, for another 18 months.

856
00:39:17,378 --> 00:39:21,398
So it was August, 2023 when they
went for, uh, not a super injunction.

857
00:39:22,088 --> 00:39:26,318
Simply an injunction that would, uh,
cover the kind of security of these people

858
00:39:26,318 --> 00:39:27,608
while they worked out what to do about it.

859
00:39:27,608 --> 00:39:30,848
Because obviously these people were in
danger of reprisals, by the Taliban.

860
00:39:31,328 --> 00:39:34,748
Uh, it then went on for months and
months and years and years after that,

861
00:39:34,748 --> 00:39:38,618
and has finally only been dropped after
a review brought in by the incoming,

862
00:39:38,918 --> 00:39:42,788
labor government, uh, which said it was
not necessary and not needed anymore.

863
00:39:43,088 --> 00:39:44,528
Uh, in that meantime, it is covered.

864
00:39:44,588 --> 00:39:47,318
This is the extraordinary
bit, um, the relocation of 20.

865
00:39:47,963 --> 00:39:51,353
Thousand or more people, which we
weren't told about, uh, which obviously

866
00:39:51,526 --> 00:39:54,976
migration into this country being quite
a hot political topic for the last few

867
00:39:54,976 --> 00:39:56,746
years, it does seem rather relevant.

868
00:39:56,776 --> 00:40:00,046
Uh, and the, um, as, as the judge
noted in the final judgment, there's

869
00:40:00,106 --> 00:40:03,046
billions of pounds of taxpayers cash
being spent on this as well with no

870
00:40:03,046 --> 00:40:06,376
oversight from either the public or
more to the point from parliament.

871
00:40:06,436 --> 00:40:10,126
So, uh, yeah, it was
quite a biggie really,

872
00:40:10,336 --> 00:40:11,416
This was an MOD list.

873
00:40:11,416 --> 00:40:11,986
This was a,

874
00:40:12,046 --> 00:40:15,826
it was within the MOD, it was about the
people who needed, um, resettling from

875
00:40:15,826 --> 00:40:18,616
Afghanistan because of the work they
had done with British troops out there.

876
00:40:18,616 --> 00:40:21,616
So it's people like translators
and facilitators and drivers and

877
00:40:21,616 --> 00:40:22,666
all, all, all that kind of thing.

878
00:40:22,706 --> 00:40:23,006
Was there

879
00:40:23,006 --> 00:40:26,306
not a suggestion too that some of them
had put, as their references, names

880
00:40:26,306 --> 00:40:30,146
of serving Army offers potentially
serving intelligence officers as well?

881
00:40:30,481 --> 00:40:34,621
There were, it turned out in a slightly
separately election, the names of certain

882
00:40:34,621 --> 00:40:37,861
MI six officers and Special Forces
soldiers also revealed in the league.

883
00:40:37,911 --> 00:40:39,501
and it was a super injunction.

884
00:40:39,681 --> 00:40:44,361
Used for what they were traditionally
used for, which was to cover

885
00:40:44,361 --> 00:40:47,538
up, what had happened and make
sure no one took any blame.

886
00:40:47,748 --> 00:40:51,018
Well, it was a really odd one because
initially you could see the argument

887
00:40:51,018 --> 00:40:52,098
for keeping this stuff secret.

888
00:40:52,098 --> 00:40:56,238
And in fact, the media organizations that
initially approached the MOD, uh, which

889
00:40:56,238 --> 00:41:00,498
was actually Louis Goodall at the News
Agents podcast, and, independent revolved

890
00:41:00,498 --> 00:41:02,568
at quite an early stage as well, 'cause
they'd heard, heard about this leak.

891
00:41:02,958 --> 00:41:05,808
they said, look, we understand that
there are security information.

892
00:41:06,408 --> 00:41:08,628
Journalists generally, this may
surprise listeners, but we, we

893
00:41:08,628 --> 00:41:10,038
don't want to get people killed.

894
00:41:10,248 --> 00:41:12,618
It's really not what we came into
the game for, for the most part.

895
00:41:12,978 --> 00:41:15,078
and they were willing to,
to hold back on that stuff.

896
00:41:15,108 --> 00:41:20,178
And it was in fact the judge, uh, a man
called Mr. Justice Robin Knowles, uh, who

897
00:41:20,178 --> 00:41:21,378
interestingly is not from the media list.

898
00:41:21,378 --> 00:41:22,308
He's from the financial list.

899
00:41:22,308 --> 00:41:25,068
This is a case of when we, you
remember this, Ian, from going back

900
00:41:25,098 --> 00:41:27,348
to the days when super injunctions
and injunctions were being cast all

901
00:41:27,348 --> 00:41:28,848
over the place, it tended to be.

902
00:41:28,923 --> 00:41:31,353
The judge who was on duty and was
called there in his pajamas and

903
00:41:31,353 --> 00:41:34,293
didn't really know what area he was
talking about, and would just say,

904
00:41:34,293 --> 00:41:35,223
well, why don't you have one of these?

905
00:41:35,223 --> 00:41:36,333
Then that's exactly what happened.

906
00:41:36,333 --> 00:41:36,633
In this case.

907
00:41:36,633 --> 00:41:37,953
No one was going for a super injunction.

908
00:41:37,953 --> 00:41:40,983
It was Mr. Justice Knowles who came up
with and said, well, why don't you have

909
00:41:40,983 --> 00:41:42,876
one of these so arguments to be made?

910
00:41:42,876 --> 00:41:45,496
As I say, the journalists were quite
happy to keep the stuff secret,

911
00:41:45,496 --> 00:41:46,666
and there are precedents for this.

912
00:41:46,666 --> 00:41:49,511
Do you remember 2008 Prince Harry
when he was deployed to Afghanistan?

913
00:41:49,801 --> 00:41:53,341
There was no kind of formal system to keep
that a secret while he was over there.

914
00:41:53,491 --> 00:41:56,671
It was sort of gentleman's agreement,
gentleman, gentle women's agreement,

915
00:41:56,671 --> 00:41:59,041
I guess, across the press that
they would keep that a secret.

916
00:41:59,041 --> 00:42:02,644
And it was only blown by, the Drudge
Report, which is a pretty down

917
00:42:02,644 --> 00:42:05,284
market kind of American website
that, that, that, that, that blew

918
00:42:05,284 --> 00:42:06,334
the whole thing open in that case.

919
00:42:06,334 --> 00:42:07,868
So it could have worked that way.

920
00:42:07,898 --> 00:42:10,688
We're in a slightly more feral world now,
as we've been saying with social media,

921
00:42:10,838 --> 00:42:15,594
but actually the list was leaked partially
on Facebook by someone in Afghanistan.

922
00:42:16,128 --> 00:42:19,188
And actually because of the feral world
of social media, as far as I can see,

923
00:42:19,188 --> 00:42:21,948
there was no way of imposing the super
injunction of him and the only actual

924
00:42:21,948 --> 00:42:23,388
thing that happened as a result of that.

925
00:42:23,808 --> 00:42:27,168
Uh, was that he got his own
resettlement expedited as a result.

926
00:42:27,468 --> 00:42:30,108
That's a little bit like blackmail, which
is one of the other things that used to

927
00:42:30,108 --> 00:42:31,698
get thrown round in the cases of super.

928
00:42:31,698 --> 00:42:31,818
That's

929
00:42:31,818 --> 00:42:32,388
outrageous.

930
00:42:32,388 --> 00:42:34,128
I'm a, I'm, I'm voting reform.

931
00:42:35,875 --> 00:42:40,705
but as the joke pages had it, normally
these super injunctions were to, cover

932
00:42:40,705 --> 00:42:44,815
incidents where celebrities were,
were getting screwed as opposed to the

933
00:42:44,890 --> 00:42:46,915
entire country for billions of pounds.

934
00:42:47,935 --> 00:42:49,105
It does seem slightly more.

935
00:42:49,165 --> 00:42:52,135
Important than what Harold
Donald from Take that was doing

936
00:42:52,135 --> 00:42:53,065
with his winky, doesn't it?

937
00:42:53,525 --> 00:42:54,005
Good Lord.

938
00:42:55,055 --> 00:42:56,900
Not only do I know what
you are referring to,

939
00:42:59,645 --> 00:43:00,515
but I wish I didn't.

940
00:43:00,575 --> 00:43:01,115
Uh,

941
00:43:01,445 --> 00:43:04,145
In fact, it was actually
discharged the super injunction

942
00:43:04,145 --> 00:43:07,585
in July, 2024, and then promptly
reinstated by the Court of appeal.

943
00:43:07,771 --> 00:43:10,381
Everyone on the media side of it and there
were a lot of media organizations involved

944
00:43:10,381 --> 00:43:12,421
by that point in the legal action thought.

945
00:43:12,421 --> 00:43:13,471
That's it, we're there.

946
00:43:13,501 --> 00:43:15,871
Uh, and then the MOD appealed it,
it went back to the court of Appeal

947
00:43:15,871 --> 00:43:18,481
and there's been subject to various
more hearings until this point

948
00:43:18,771 --> 00:43:22,971
But it also meant that a number of
commentators found their heads exploding

949
00:43:23,001 --> 00:43:25,221
'cause um, they had to move from.

950
00:43:25,551 --> 00:43:29,361
Why can't we stand by our Afghan
allies into what are we doing

951
00:43:29,361 --> 00:43:33,861
having another 24,000 people flying
in here, um, without any checks?

952
00:43:34,011 --> 00:43:38,691
So, um, it, it, it had, um, it had
follow up effects as well, right?

953
00:43:38,811 --> 00:43:41,151
And it covered the period of course
in the run up to the general election

954
00:43:41,151 --> 00:43:44,511
as well when, you know, unchecked
migration was an enormous issue.

955
00:43:44,601 --> 00:43:47,481
So, uh, you know, it was a
hell of a political hot potato

956
00:43:47,541 --> 00:43:48,261
that was being covered up.

957
00:43:48,656 --> 00:43:49,946
I find it quite cheering.

958
00:43:50,096 --> 00:43:53,486
I mean, we actually managed to organize
all of that repatriation for people

959
00:43:53,486 --> 00:43:56,216
without anyone finding out I was
a level of British state capacity.

960
00:43:56,216 --> 00:43:57,296
I didn't know we possessed.

961
00:43:57,776 --> 00:43:58,316
Right?

962
00:43:58,376 --> 00:43:58,586
Yeah.

963
00:43:58,586 --> 00:44:00,656
If we could apply that same zeal
to like building some houses or

964
00:44:00,656 --> 00:44:02,276
something, how wonderful that would be

965
00:44:02,502 --> 00:44:02,832
Okay.

966
00:44:02,832 --> 00:44:05,082
But in many ways, what I'm
hearing, a win for Britain,

967
00:44:07,112 --> 00:44:07,382
, Right.

968
00:44:07,382 --> 00:44:08,972
That's it for this episode of page 94.

969
00:44:08,972 --> 00:44:11,132
We'll be back again in a
fortnight with another one.

970
00:44:11,312 --> 00:44:14,882
My thanks to Ian, Helen, Adam,
and of course to John Farley.

971
00:44:15,152 --> 00:44:16,682
Thank you to you for listening.

972
00:44:16,682 --> 00:44:20,792
If you would like more examples of
Untrammeled free speech, which nonetheless

973
00:44:20,942 --> 00:44:25,532
maintains the boundaries of usually taste
and decency while still being very funny.

974
00:44:25,752 --> 00:44:27,462
Then why not buy a copy of Private Eye?

975
00:44:27,462 --> 00:44:29,532
Go to private hyphen.co.uk.

976
00:44:29,772 --> 00:44:33,162
You can get a year's subscription
to Private Eye for the cost of,

977
00:44:33,222 --> 00:44:35,112
I would say about six coffees.

978
00:44:35,597 --> 00:44:38,087
Um, so that's, that's worth doing

979
00:44:38,357 --> 00:44:41,177
plus unlimited placards to print
out and take to your next protest.

980
00:44:42,137 --> 00:44:46,217
I'm taking a, a thri poem along to my
next one, whether it's relevant or not,

981
00:44:47,267 --> 00:44:48,647
you'll be arrested for the Scansion.

982
00:44:48,677 --> 00:44:53,267
Um, so thank you very much again,
uh, to all of you for listening.

983
00:44:53,317 --> 00:44:56,167
And to Ollie Peart of
Rethink Audio for producing.

984
00:44:56,257 --> 00:44:56,887
Bye for now.