Judy [00.00.00]
You know, you want to work with somebody who is happy to be there, who brings a positive energy.

Anna
Everyone who's been part of Kennedys, whether you're with us now or have moved on, has helped shape the firm into what it is today. Whether your time here was brief or spanned many years, you remain an important part of our story. I'm Anna Weiss, global relationship development director at Kennedys, and this is the Kennedys Alumni Network podcast. Today, we're diving into something people don't talk about often enough, which is leaving. Well, because moving on doesn't have to mean cutting ties. I'm joined by Judy Selby, former partner at Kennedys, now a client and friend of the firm, to chat about what it means to leave on good terms and why staying connected can be a real win win. Welcome to our second alumni podcast, Judy. I'm delighted you're here with us today. How are you?

Judy [00.01.06]
I'm great. Anna. I'm so happy to be here with you. Thanks for the invitation.

Anna [00.01.10]
So it's an absolute pleasure to have you with us today, and I'd love for you to tell everyone who's listening a little bit about yourself. You know, how you join Kennedys and a little bit about your your life now.

Judy [00.01.22]
Yeah, I joined Kennedys in 2021 and I joined as part of the cyber Group based in the New York office, and I was really excited about the opportunity to join in, in large part because of the global platform, because we all know cyber has no borders and and because of the existing team and but primarily because of the, the relationship. I mean, the reputation of the firm in the insurance industry.

Anna [00.01.59]
Fantastic. And do you remember your very first day at Kendis and what it felt like to join?

Judy [00.02.05]
Absolutely. I remember it really well because I was exactly one week out from a shoulder replacement.

Anna
[00.02.13]
Oh, wow.

Judy [00.02.15]
And so I had a giant, uh, sling on my arm. And yeah, I was only seven days post-op and.

Anna [00.02.24]
Oh my goodness. Wow.

Judy [00.02.25]
And I remember how nice everybody was to me because it was my right arm, which made, you know, typing and everything a bit challenging. And the, the head of HR filled out all my forms for me because she felt sorry. Oh, yes, I remember it.

Anna [00.02.40]
That's great. I remember it really well. Fantastic. And aside from your first day, which obviously was quite a challenge for you personally dealing with all of that. Do you have any other standout memories from your time at the firm that you want to share?

Judy [00.02.56]
Yeah. So early, early days when I was when I joined Kendis. The reception among my clients and my prospective clients was extremely positive. And, you know, very, very happy that I had chosen to go to Kennedys, which they viewed as a great place for me to be. And so, you know, you can't really, you know, talk about, talk to clients, you know, in advance of a move like that. But once I landed and was able to have, you know, these kind of communications with, with clients and prospective clients, it was all very well received. So I was very happy about that.

Anna [00.03.39]
That's great. And I know from the time you've been with Kendis, you were really doing some really great work and some brilliant opportunities, but obviously life took you in a new direction and you're now an author, a bestselling author. I know that you also have been doing some other fantastic work. Yes. Tell us. Tell us a little bit about how you made that leap and and what you're doing with that just now.

Judy [00.04.06]
Yeah, well, I had practiced law for 34 years or 32 years. 32 years. I was counting my work during law school. I guess

Anna [00.04.16]
Every year counts, right?

Judy [00.04.17]
Every year counts. And I worked hard, I gotta tell you. But, yeah, I kind of had this book living inside me and and, you know, throughout my time at Kennedys and even before Kennedys, the feedback I routinely got from people I worked with, either junior people or even my peers, you know, at the partner level. Thank you for mentoring me. Thank you for helping me. Thank you for coaching me. Thank you for giving me a strategy to get through this and that. And so it was never an official thing of I remember people coming in my office and saying, thank you. You don't you have no idea what a difference you made in my career. And I remember always being a little kind of surprised because there was nothing official, you know. But what I decided to do was, you know, leverage all of this inside me, go into, like, becoming a become an official coach. I got certified as a coach. This book was, you know, dormant inside me and getting that getting the book written actually did not take me very long at all. And it maps out the what I see are, you know, success, success strategies from either when you're thinking about going to law school or you're already in law school all the way through to being a successful partner at a law firm. And some of the feedback I routinely get is that this book is not just for lawyers, that it's for more than just lawyers. But, you know, I know, yeah, you read the book,
Anna [00.05.56]
I've read it. And for anyone who is listening, you can pick this up at Amazon, I believe. But it is called The Untold Secrets to Thrive as a lawyer. Even if you didn't go to Harvard or Yale, written by Judy in front of us here. And I was delighted when I heard that you'd written a book, and I was quick to purchase a copy of it. And I will say that it is filled with lots of pearls of wisdom. And what's really great about it is obviously, Judy, I know of you as a cyber lawyer, a technical expert, but what I see in this book is also all these wonderful stories of leadership, mentorship, coaching, which you know, is a really important part of our jobs as lawyers, our day to day, regardless of the stage of our career we're in. We can always learn more and certainly from reading your your book, it's it's filled with wonderful stories and secrets. And I do have to ask you, is there a particular secret that you wish more lawyers knew, or one little tidbit from the book that you would like to share with us today?

Judy [00.07.03]
That's tough, because I probably have two, but I'll go. I'll go with one, and maybe I'll try to sneak in a second when you're not cleaning. But but the first one, you know, is a story very, very early on in the book. And it was an experience I had as a very young lawyer. I believe I was a first year lawyer with a very senior partner at the firm who I'd been working with. And, you know, it was quite an honor to work with him, very, very well known insurance coverage lawyer. And so I had the opportunity to do all types of work with him, including trial work, which was amazing. But one Monday morning I got to the office early, as usual. I was walking down the hall, he was walking the opposite way and we kind of crossed in the hall and he said, Hey Judy, how are you doing? I said, great, Doug, how are you? And and he stopped and he said, that's why I love working with you. And I said, well. And he said, because you're always upbeat, you're always positive. And, you know, whenever I kind of grasp the situation in the firm, you know, I realize how lucky I was to work with him. Some people were a bit resentful. I found out later that I was working so much with him. But I think that was the key insight. You know, you want to work with somebody who is happy to be there. You know who brings that positive energy as opposed to, oh, that's another Monday. Oh, the weekend so short. You know, whatever people would say. And it wasn't contrived when I said it. I mean, I was grateful to have the job. I was grateful to work with him. Right? Well, for a whole lot of other things. So that was a huge lesson that I learned very, very early on. And another, another lesson kind of revealed itself in the form of a distinction. I would say, when you look at certain attorneys who are happier in their jobs, seem to be happier in their lives, seem to be, you know, more balanced physically, you know, fit and, you know, lots of great client relationships. They all seem to have this ability and this desire to happily do things routinely that other lawyers just won't do, right. Just don't feel like it. Yeah. There's always. You know, I'll do it tomorrow, that type of thing. And and that's like, the huge differentiator I found is that the people who just put the excuses aside do what they have to do. They, you know, show up at the networking event on the, you know, snowy March night, even though they don't know anybody in the room. Right. You know, and they just keep showing up and they're consistent. And to me, it's a huge differentiator.

Anna [00.10.04]
Well, I think it's such a a treat isn't it? And it's an amazing feeling when you know that you're going somewhere with someone that looks at everything with a positive lens and can really see that the advantages of being there rather than, as you say, digging in their heels and not wanting to be present. And I think there is something about that. Also, when you make the choice to move on from a firm, you know, which is, you know, you can leave a firm well, you can maintain your connections and it can be a positive experience. And that's one of the themes, you know, I think is really important in today's discussion, which is, you know, what advice would you give to someone who is leaving the firm and who wants to stay connected? Because those connections, they do matter. And I think, you know, you've hit on the nail, the nail on the head, which is, you know, being positive and enthusiastic about life is a huge part of maintaining that, that connection.

Judy [00.11.02]
Yeah. And, you know, I'll answer this in two different ways. We've seen some pretty public examples. Not not with Kennedys, but, you know, out in the legal marketplace of, you know, usually newer lawyers who maybe have a bad experience at a law firm or something happened and they turned to social media and they rant and they rave about their old law firm or somebody they worked with who they didn't like. And it's such a terrible mistake because there's, you know, we always hear there's a lot of lawyers in the world, but it really is a small community. And, and there's, you know, for your own, for your own sake. It just doesn't make any sense to do that and get that type of reputation. I think that will stay with you as it goes forward. And because because now we know, you know, any law firm would be crazy not to do a Google search and a social media for anybody. They're, you know, even considering hiring. But, you know, I think that, you know, demonizing people, demonizing law firms, things like that is just a bad it's just a bad approach to life. Right. But, you know, a firm like Kennedy, there's so many wonderful people there. And the relationships are that I made were just, you know, so rock solid and and I miss people I work with. And I'm not just talking about the lawyers, you know. I'm talking about, you know, people in various other departments in the firm. You know, I'm thinking particularly of Janet in the, you know, the business development group. She and I had a call every single Friday morning for a long time. Oh, wow. And then then I finally gave her a break, and we switched to every other Friday morning.

Anna [00.12.52]
That's when I snuck in and took that morning.

Judy [00.12.55]
Well done. But, you know, strategizing about how to, you know, get the word out and grow the cyber insurance coverage practice and, you know, best ways to do that. And so, you know, just tremendous, tremendous people at the firm. And and I knew that going into the firm that I knew it was a rock solid salt of the earth type of coverage firm. You know, my kind of people. Right. And so, you know, for me. It was very, very hard to. It was very hard to call my clients of someone particular who I worked with for, you know, well over a decade and, and then, you know, calling who I, the people I needed to call at Kennedys was quite challenging because there was nothing to do. I wasn't leaving to go to another firm. I wasn't leaving because of anything at the firm. But and I, I felt like the firm had always been super supportive of me.

Anna [00.13.52]
That's wonderful. And I think one of the topics that I really wanted to explore with you today is, you know, how to make your connections count and the importance of connections, and whether there's been any particular connections throughout your career that has been pivotal. I mean, you mentioned Doug, and I think that's been part of your journey, but if you can share with us any other key connections that you've had and why they've played such an important role, I'm sure it'd be great to hear.

Judy [00.14.20]
Yeah, I'll tell you a story and it ties into some other, I think, important issues for for lawyers to think about. I can't remember the year, probably 12 or so. I wrote a fascinating article, a nationwide review of Tcpa. You know, the anti-spam law? Yeah. Tcpa coverage law. So it was a 50 state kind of survey. And when I say it was fascinating, I mean, it's hard to imagine a drier topic than that. And so but I was working with a very young, very energetic associate. He was just terrific. And he helped me with the with the article. And then he said he was very witty. And I said, Zach, come on, help me come up with. We got to come up with a great name for this article instead of a nationwide review of Tcpa commercial Law. And he's and he came in the next day and he says, I got it. And he said, what is it? And he said, there's a new hit song at the time called Call Me Maybe.

Anna [00.15.25]
Ah, yeah.

Judy [00.15.28]
And so we named that's what we named the article. And that article went about as viral as any insurance. Wow. Lawyer article ever. Meanwhile, we never generated any client work from it, so it was a little disappointing considering all the buzz around it. All this like shares repos, all the all those metrics. And then 18 months later, I kid you not, 18 months later, I got a phone call and it was a woman at an insurance company, and she said, we got this claim in. Nobody knows what to do with it. We called our usual coverage lawyers. They had no idea what it was. And then we googled it and we found you. And that client is my number one has been and is still, frankly, my number one client after all these years. Brilliant. We're very, very close personal friends now, which I think is important, you know, to build those. You know, on one of the recurring themes of the book is to approach your work as a relationship and not a transaction or series of transactions. And, and that's how it is with them. And and it's wonderful. So that's a very, very significant connection.

Anna [00.16.50]
I love that story, too, because it does hit the point that when we go out and put ourselves into a networking opportunity or we build our relationships, we shouldn't be approaching them expecting that something's going to land immediately. It's really about building that relationship over time and building trust and getting to know people. One of the things that I see immediately when I, when I log in on a daily basis to LinkedIn is there's Judy with her news today, or there's something that you've very intentionally shared with your followers. And I think it is about being present and just being there to share information or thoughts or whatever it may be. There's always some value in what you're sharing on LinkedIn. And it would be great, I think, to share a little bit about, you know, how you have use LinkedIn to help you build your own personal brand and any advice you have to anyone who's thinking about using it more than they do currently?

Judy [00.18.01]
Yeah, absolutely. I can't tell you what a game changer LinkedIn has been in my career. I mean, 100% the number one tool I use for not just branding and business development, but relationship building and sharing things. You know, my whole approach to social media. My whole approach to being a lawyer. And now what I'm doing, you know, in my in my next steps is to approach everything with mentality of service. And you are looking to help other people. And so when it comes to what I post online, you know, every now and then there's kind of the humblebrag, you know, like really excited to speak at this conference or that conference, but and we have to do those types of things. But I always look to be of service and to give value to the reader. And that is consistently the feedback that I get, which is so important to me. And and it started a long, long time ago when I first started doing a lot of writing about cyber, a cyber insurance, and when nobody knew what the coverage was. You know, back early, early days, nobody was hiring any coverage lawyers or anything. And I was putting out so much thought leadership on what the. What the coverage is all about. You know, because it's a very complicated policy form, probably the most complicated or one of the most complicated on the market because of the first party and third party components of it. But, you know, my test in writing an article was always, if I find this issue interesting, I think other people will as well. And that remains my test every single day, whether I'm curating content or generating my own content. And then, you know, as the years went by and I got involved in more and more cases that, you know, were, you know, disputed matters or, you know, contested types of issues, you have to be more careful about what you write about, and you're representing clients, and you have to keep those issues always very top of mind. And then, you know, so I adopted many in many cases just a curation strategy and, you know, sharing other people's comment content. You know, an interesting article and interesting study. And again, the test was will this be helpful to my clients. Concurrently with that, sending articles and content, and my view of things coming around the corner that I don't want to post publicly, sending them to my clients and saying, here, take a look at this. Take a look at that. You know, you might want to bring this to the attention of the underwriters. And in cyber, as you might imagine, that's like every other minute. There's something going on there. Yeah. And so I think that's a big part of, you know, being a good lawyer in a cutting edge space is keeping your client, you know, aware of what you see. Anybody can tell them what's already happened. If you want to tell them what you think has a very good chance of happening or might happen, might impact them and how they can best position themselves for it. Maybe it's a different underwriting strategy. Maybe it's different pricing strategy, maybe it's new policy wordings, you know, to to cover something, to not cover something, etc.

Anna [00.21.38]
Right. It's almost like a way, isn't it, of sort of taking the temperature of what our peers, clients, colleagues, friends are saying and sharing in the market, isn't it beyond what you can read about in more technical journals?

Judy
[00.21.50]
100%! Like if there's something big, if there's something big in in the cyber world. I find it on LinkedIn before I find it anyplace else. And then an interesting point makes me think of an old story. This was not my story, but I heard somebody from a major law firm speaking at a at a conference, and she was trying to. It convince a more senior partner at the firm that he should start getting involved? You know, using LinkedIn more often. He has zero interest. He had his you know, it was a stodgy old guy and he had his book and everything was great. And then she said she wanted to see him one day and said, let me show you something. And she takes out her her laptop, and she showed his client interacting on LinkedIn with his competitors. And then they were like, oh, great seeing you at the conference. Oh, I loved your panel. Those were great insights you shared. Right. I was like, how do I sign up for this?

Anna [00.22.53]
I mean, this is the reality, isn't it? To some degree, it's important to have both a virtual presence as well as an in-person presence. And there's another aspect to our chats over the years that I always find valuable, which is, you know, for some people, LinkedIn doesn't feel comfortable, you know, sharing virtually or as you said, you know, some people feel that it's bragging rights or it's uncomfortable and in different ways. It isn't really. It's just sharing inside information or, you know, making sure that you're seen. But the attendance at in-person events is equally as important. And for other people, that's more comfortable because they feel better in person than the virtual world. But for others, it's easier to be online than in person. And we've spoken before about, you know, some tips that you've given to younger lawyers who feel uncomfortable about going to in-person networking events and what kind of icebreakers they might use, or how they should approach walking into that room of unknown faces. I'd love for you to share the same stories you've spoken with me about previously, because I think they're really valuable.

Judy [00.24.07]
Thanks. Thanks for that. Yeah. In fact, I have, you know, in my newsletter. I'm not sure if you subscribed to it. I have a whole, like, you know, a game plan one. I think it comes out every other week. Whole game. Game plan of how to attend conference as well. And so if anybody wants that, please reach out to me. I'd be happy to shoot it over to you, but great. You've already hit on some of the key issues. You know, you. Preparation. You know, don't just show up, but be prepared. You know, it's sometimes hard, as we all know, to have an attendance list of, you know, who's going to actually be at any given conference. But you can usually get a speaker's list if there are speakers at the event. And do your homework on on the individual speakers and have kind of a few, you know, if you don't know them, have kind of a few questions. You know, in your in the can that you be ready if you have the opportunity to to speak with the speakers and you and I probably I think you do it as well. We've spoken at tons and tons of conferences. It's very flattering when somebody comes up and and is familiar with your work and who you are and asks an insightful question. So that's one good way to to break the I's. But like anything in life, preparation always reduces tension and always increases your confidence. But the second point, which maybe should be the first point, is again, you. You go in with a mindset of service. You go there looking to give and not get. And so what are you looking to give when you walk into a cocktail party and everybody's just standing around. You know, you might want to. You know, walk over to somebody who's by themselves, you know, and introduce yourself and say hi and ask some, you know, maybe again, have some questions ready. You know, and, you know, just interesting questions based on the type of event it is, you know. ET cetera. ET cetera. Put your phone away. Your phone should not even be visible. Do not even have it in your hand. Don't pretend you know. Don't be the guy standing in the corner. Like. Yeah, you know. You know the the. You know, the Grand Puba is about to come and meet me here. I'm very busy. So don't be that person. You know, I have found over the years, people are very welcoming at events like that. When people just walk up to them and and say, hi, I'm so-and-so. But, you know, the more homework you do, the better. But, you know, if you're looking just to to learn to be of service, see what value you can add to this person's life versus what can you get from them.

Anna [00.27.08]
I think we'll change it up a little bit and we have some questions I always like to ask in any of these podcasts, which is a kind of quick fire round where you have to just give the first thing that comes to mind the answer, whatever is the tip of your tongue. So it's supposed to be fast and fun. Don't worry about the answer. So I'm just going to throw some questions at you and tell me what you think. So coffee or tea?

Judy [00.27.34]
Oh coffee or tea? Tea, tea.

Anna [00.27.35]
Great.

Judy [00.27.37]
I drink so much tea, it's ridiculous.

Anna [00.27.40]
Much better for you, I'd imagine, than all the caffeine and coffee.

Judy [00.27.44]
Well, I only drink black tea.

Anna [00.27.46]
Oh, okay. So still, still a little bit. But I don't think you need too much energy.

Judy[00.27.51]
And that's why I love going to London, because they know how to make their tea there. And when you say tea, they don't say, you know, hot tea or

Anna[00.28.00]
a little bit of lemon on the side.

Judy[00.28.02]
Yeah. It's, you know, they're know what they are doing.

Anna[00.28.04]
Yes. I definitely agree with that. And I'm curious about this one early bird or a night owl.

Judy[00.28.13]
I am a ridiculously early bird.

Anna[00.28.16]
I guess that would be the answer. Full of energy. Straight when the alarm goes off, I can imagine.

Judy[00.28.20]
No alarm. No alarm. Zero alarm.

Anna[00.28.24]
Your body automatically gets you up early.

Judy[00.28.26]
Ssometimes early, or oftentimes earlier, but certainly no later than four.

Anna [00.28.32]
Well, four. Wow. Very impressed. Tell us more about that.

Judy [00.28.37]
Yeah, I love it. I just I just wake up automatically. It's it's my own rhythm, I guess. And I don't fight it, I love it. You know, if I wake up, you know, if I were to wake up at seven, I feel like my day was half over. And first thing I do is I have a whole routine of things that I do every single day. And, and they involve, you know, first off, I make my cup of tea, of course, and my dog is still sleeping, so I don't disturb him. But I do a lot of reading. I do a lot of the things I talk about in my book to get my mindset right. I do a lot of the gratitude things. I listen to really positive content from from podcasts and a certain email lists that I'm subscribed to. And I really kind of get myself going. And then I have. This sheet that I created myself that is dividing. Dividing the parts of your life into. Into six main themes and under each one. So there's relationships. Finances. Fitness. Health. Spiritual. Personal growth and career. Three goals for the year and three habits to support those goals. And when you read this every morning, it really keeps you on track. So this is what I do when I wake up early and then get some exercise in. Because if you wake up, if for me, if I wake up later, then I'm in reactive mode. People are emailing people or texting. You need to get things done for other people. So this is my time and it really enables me to, you know, bring all this positivity and, and drive that, that we've been talking about. And so I'm very happy that I'm just naturally wired that way. I wouldn't change it for the world. And. And it's. And I love. I love the quiet. I love the quiet. You know, especially now. 530. There's a little bit of daylight. And so we're out at the park. We're doing our three miles every morning. And, you know, we've lived a day by the time most people get up complaining that now they're late and they got to do this and do that.

Anna [00.31.00]
And the book that you've recommended the most

Judy [00.31.04]
There's a book called It Takes What It Takes by a wonderful wonder, I never met him, but seems like a wonderful guy. I saw him interviewed many times and he passed away at a very young age. The name of the book is It Takes What It Takes. The author's name was Trevor Moab, and he he espouses a theory called neutral thinking. And so it's not getting too high, not getting too low. And it ties in well with my own personal philosophy. So when. Let's take an example when things are going badly. So things are going badly for somebody. And you know, a lot of people react and say, why does this always happen to me? You know, types of questions like that that do not move you forward, that do not move the ball at all. In fact, I would argue it pushes you back because when you say something like that, you start thinking, you know, why does this always happen to me? Because I'm a loser. Because I'm whatever. And, you know, you write this list, whereas if you say what's what's one step I can take to make this situation better or to move in the right direction, so, you know, it fires off different things in your mind and you automatically start thinking, yeah, what can I do? You know what? What is it? So stop asking why. Start asking what.
Yeah. What's one thing I can do. What's one one action I can take to improve this situation. And you'll always find I'd imagine like a terrible situation. You know you're, you're, you know, something horrible happens in your house and you're like, why does this always happen to me? Or what's one thing I can do to stop this flooding right now? Right. Yeah. Maybe I should turn off the water thing, you know, in the house or, you know, whatever it may be. And so I really always recommend that book.

Anna[00.33.04]
And then finally, what one word springs to mind when you think of Kennedys?

Judy [00.33.09]
Opportunity.

Anna[00.33.10]
Oh, fantastic. I love that. Yeah, that's really good. Before we've had global friendly. Now opportunity. And I think those all kind of go together in a beautiful mix.

Judy [00.33.23]
Well, that's yeah, that was a big part of the opportunity. You know that global platform and and the expertise. There's so much expertise in Kennedys. And I think it's incumbent on lawyers to figure out what their partners and their colleagues do and what they're good at and how you can help them grow their practice and their brand. And then, of course, what they can do to help yours. So much opportunity at Kennedys.

Judy [00.34.01]
I'll tell you a really, really quick story. There is a someone in with an insurance company who, you know, I knew coming up the ranks when she was very, very, very junior. And so many lunches, you know, we would go out to lunch all the time and building this relationship for years and years and years, and then we never had the opportunity to work together, though. And as she, you know, became higher, higher up like head of claims type of position. And then one day I wrote an article about a big issue in cyber insurance, and I posted it, you know, where I'm like. And then later that day, she called me and she said, oh, I saw that article you wrote today we have that issue, you know, can you help us with it? And it was so impactful to me, and I was thrilled because I love her. It was great. But I was like, after all these years, like, you weren't thinking of me necessarily. Maybe if she sat and thought about it, but because I was right there that day. Right? Yeah. So it was a very interesting. It's a human. It's a human thing. And so keeping the relationships and the opportunities for collaboration or assisting each other front and center, it would be very helpful.

Anna [00.35.23]
Great. And I I've seen that already. You know, just by sharing the fact that we have the network. And seeing all the different paths and directions people have taken. And it's absolutely fascinating to learn from, from those different paths, what people have done, and to be able to share that with others and introduce them to people both at Kennedys and who have moved on, who are alumni of Kennedys and through that network. Judy, if you had five minutes with somebody to grab a nice tea with that has just started at the firm right now, what would you tell them? What would your advice to them be?

Judy [00.36.01]
My advice would be to open your eyes beyond your immediate work that you're doing. And and, you know, you have to focus on your work. I mean, like, you're doing a good job as table stakes. Yeah. But recognize that, you know, long term success and fulfillment is based on more than that. And study the firm, study the people there, come into the office, meet people, understand the firm culture, take take advantage of the opportunities that the firm offers. Some of the some of the opportunities are really quite good, you know, to maybe go to work in another office for a period of time. Things of that nature. And, you know, I make yourself aware of these things, leverage the opportunities and like anything in life, really just take advantage of it to the full and be, you know, approach it all with a an attitude of curiosity. And I would say gratitude that, you know, that you're you're in a, in a firm with a global platform and a great reputation.

Anna [00.37.17]
So a couple final thoughts. How do you see the role of personal branding changing for lawyers over the next 5 to 10 years?

Judy [00.37.27]
That's an interesting question. Changing over the next 5 to 10 years. You know, I think it'll be just a necessity instead of a nice to have. And right now I would say it's I believe it's a little bit more than a nice to have. But we all know plenty of lawyers who don't have one and are doing just fine. But I think it will transition into more of that and it'd be much more expected. And and again, I think this the people you see really succeeding and not just lawyers on, on, on LinkedIn are the people who just don't report on the, you know, this happened yesterday, but the ones who are reporting on what's going to happen. Yeah, the ones who are sharing that kind of good information with with their clients and their network and their audience. I think the I think it will go more that way. I hope it does.

Anna [00.38.29]
So on a more positive note, and thinking about, you know, the fact that we're always optimistic and cheerful cheerleaders here. Final thought for you, Judy. What does success mean to you now?

Judy [00.38.41]
Success. Yeah, that that definition definitely has changed over the years. I think success is and this ties in with kind of my personal mission as a as a human being. Success is doing the best you can every day. So, you know, maybe success for one person would be to make $1 million. Success for somebody else might be to make $1 billion. And so are they. Are you utilizing your potential or are you maximizing, you know, your God given gifts to the best of your your ability? And to me, you know, when you ask yourself that question, I would recommend people do that every night. You know, did I give my best today? This is not to be confused with grinding it out every day, because you're right for any day may be. Did I get myself some much needed rest? You know, the we are integrated beings and the physical component and the mental components are very, very important. More so than ever. But that's how I would measure success.

Anna [00.39.48]
That's fantastic. And I think you're a great example, Judy, of someone who's really followed a non-linear career path, who sees success as more than what they might have seen it, you know, five, ten, 20 years ago or longer when you were starting out that, you know, you can have a career at Kennedys. You don't need to follow a linear path. You know, people like yourself and others that we know in our network have gone on to do a whole world of different things writing books, running their own businesses, you name it. And you know what I love to to see in this kind of discussion is that success can mean something different to every person, and it's not just following that linear trajectory, which I think was something of the past that used to be more normal. Nowadays we are celebrating, you know, hugely successful stories of different career paths, and I'm delighted that you are one of those examples.

It has been an absolute pleasure, Judy, talking with you today. I know we talk regularly, but it's fantastic to be able to share our conversation with anyone listening. Thank you so much. It's been brilliant hearing your perspective on what it means to leave well, and to stay connected.

And to everyone listening. Thank you for joining us on the Kennedys Alumni Network podcast, which is connecting the past and Empowering the Future. If you enjoyed this episode, take a look at the others, subscribe wherever you get your podcast. And most importantly, please do join the Kennedys Alumni network by visiting Kennedys Law.com. We'd love to stay connected. Thank you.