Simon Dell (00:00.92)
So welcome to the CIMO Fractional CMO Podcast. This is our second episode of this series. It makes us sound very professional when we have different series, but we've realigned what we're doing. This podcast now is specifically about fractional CMOs, talking to fractional CMOs, understanding how they work, talking to...

clients who've used fractional CMOs and so on and so forth. So if you wanna find out a bit more about us, check out our website, www.simo.com. That's spelled C-E-M-O-H. If you wanna reach out to me, my name is Simon Dell. I am on LinkedIn pretty much everywhere else. You can email me at simonatsimo.com. And if you enjoy this podcast and think it's pretty cool.

then it would be really helpful if you could write us a nice review, give us five stars on Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever else that you are listening to us. That's pretty much the boring introduction out of the way and we're gonna jump in to the real, I was gonna say the meat and bones, but that makes him sound kind of, that's very strange. But welcome to the podcast today, a gentleman by the name of Jamie Gilbert Smith. Thank you for joining us, mate.

Jamie (01:24.886)
Pleased to be here Simon.

Simon Dell (01:26.742)
Now you have a, I was gonna say colorful history, but colorful is probably the wrong word, let's say they're interesting. An interesting history of both client side, agency side, and you are a, you're fresh meat on on the fractional CMO, the fractional CMO platter. So we're gonna talk to you about that, but.

First things first, let's get the sort of the overview about the Jamie story in sort of, you know, the edited highlights of the Jamie story.

Jamie (02:03.01)
Yeah sure, God, summing up 25 years, and that makes me feel very old, yeah 25 years, most of which was agency side, but I spent the last three as a marketing director at Nine Entertainment Company, which is channel line, but also it's streaming, it's publishing, it's audio, it's the creative services, it's the whole gamut. And my remit was to look after all B2B marketing at Nine.

Simon Dell (02:09.687)
you

Jamie (02:32.128)
and that involved really driving our brands, driving our revenue, driving partnerships and leveraging both our internal properties. So let's take Mary at first sight through to the AFR.

or partnerships with the Olympics and Paralympics, so external partners, and then taking those to market, trying to engage and educate the commercial audience. Probably the biggest highlight was around our annual upfront, which is a...

annual showcase to the market investors politicians etc and We'd consume about six months of the year in planning Some it's a beast two thousand people in the room seven thousand eight thousand online so no pressure and And then also, know commercializing our Olympics and Paralympics driving 140 million in

Simon Dell (03:15.384)
Wow. Yeah.

Jamie (03:31.798)
commercial revenue which is above our target.

Simon Dell (03:34.766)
So just to interrupt there, when you say commercializing the Olympic, presumably that means that you're sort of responsible of getting in the advertisers and partners that are going to essentially give Channel 9 money in order to be visible during that spectacular sporting event.

Jamie (03:56.48)
Yeah exactly and there's different ways you can do it right so if you're a brand you can either buy spots and dots or 30s you know your typical 30 second 15 second kind of ad hoc airtime but before that you were really looking for the big commercial partners who are going to have deep integration within the broadcast beyond just simple advertising and those partnerships you know they're double digit millions and

The challenge we had is if you think about the last real Olympics that we had where there was an audience and not COVID impacted was Rio 2016 and the medium age of a media agency person who's making a lot of the buying decisions is kind of high, yeah, about 28. They were at high school or uni when Rio happened. So we had to bring to life and contextualize the importance of something like the Olympics in parallel.

Simon Dell (04:45.187)
Yeah.

Jamie (04:55.46)
Olympics. We created commercial packages for it, but you've got to go out and engage the market and persuade them to spend significant amounts of money in something that was going to be on largely overnight in Paris.

Simon Dell (05:08.558)
Yeah. That can't have been an easy job then. That sounds...

Jamie (05:13.826)
No, so we did about, I think it was 25 different events and we created podcasts and we did a lot of content and I think three or four different iterations of the commercial pitch to the market as things sold and you then changed what you were packaging up.

Simon Dell (05:18.764)
Right.

Jamie (05:37.826)
So yeah, it's pretty interesting. What I found really interesting was the shift from being agency side where you're an earner to being client side where you're a spender. what you quickly find is that what you get to spend gets reduced very quickly when you're working for a legacy media company that's in a declining ad market. we had a real focus on our earned media as much as our paid.

Simon Dell (05:45.422)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (05:59.81)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (06:06.666)
and just to touch base with the agency experience. So that was C C Sachi. and you were there for, were you there for quite, you were there for quite a long time. Was it eight years something?

Jamie (06:13.953)
Yeah.

Jamie (06:17.698)
Yeah, I was there for eight years when I headed up M &C Sarchie Sport and Entertainment, which is one of 12 companies at the time under the M &C umbrella. And then I sat on the leadership team as well. And what we did was work with the likes of ConBank, Optus, Woolies.

the Australian Olympic Committee, Swimming Australia, to either look at how to commercialise their assets, so like Swimming Australia, how do you go to market and attract brands to come on board as a commercial partner, or the other side of it which was you've got a con bank that is looking to leverage its sponsorship of the cricket and how does it do that. And I don't really like the word sponsorship because it was...

Simon Dell (06:40.323)
Yep.

Simon Dell (06:55.597)
Right.

Jamie (06:59.552)
What we doing was more than that. So what we were focused on was really providing a real life tangible proof point to a brand proposition, which is lots of marketing jargon. What that basically means is I'm a cynic when it comes to advertising and I don't ads necessarily can do all the heavy lifting on their own because it's one way communication. And if your starting point is, okay, I'm to start with my customer and what they care about.

they're not going to think about what is I want to be talking about I need to put it into their world in their context because otherwise they're probably not going to listen to me and so if you do things around things that matter to them like cricket or music or you you find a passion platform then you find a way to

sympathetically bring your brand to life within that environment, you can create a much stronger connection with customers than you can with just pure advertising. an example of the proof of that was when we did Combat Cricket and they had the Royal Commission, the only piece of communication that the bank did that drove positive sentiment in that year was our cricket work.

And we did work where they were like hang on we've had zero negative comments in our socials It sounds stupid right, but you go well if you're a bank in your your own social Invariably, there's somebody going boy. Give me a better mortgage or Stronger stronger language not not safe for a PG podcast like this

Simon Dell (08:38.84)
Yeah, no, there's plenty of swear words in this. So, and I'm gonna jump ridiculously far forward here because that sort of relationship is, again, obviously at a bigger scale, we're talking millions and millions of dollars in international cricket and large scale banks.

But that's something that's probably really important just to the, you know, the average business that, you know, the smaller businesses. What from that would you say was a key learning? It sounds like finding that sort of passion seems to be the cornerstone, but if you were talking to a, you know, a normal smaller business owner today, how would you translate what you've done on such a massive scale to sort of a smaller business?

Jamie (09:29.57)
Yeah, it's really easy. It's really easy. There's a basic fundamental, which is if you've got to start with your audience first. None of this will sound like super smart, but not many people are doing it, right? So you start with your audience, think about what they care about, and I've said to people, know, there's what your audience cares about, there's what you want to talk about. And if you imagine a Venn diagram, if you're really, really, really, really lucky, those two things might slightly overlap.

Simon Dell (09:41.88)
Yeah, yeah.

Jamie (09:59.01)
But invariably they don't. And so you've got to start with what they care about, what are their motivations, and then work back from that. So I had a conversation with who I wouldn't name, but I had a conversation with a beer company, and they were talking about their...

products and say but we've got the best hops and we've got the we've won all these awards and like but a customer walking up to a bar doesn't give a crap about that really when sure if the beer stinks then they'll know about that but if you're what differentiates is not the hops what differentiates is the story behind the brand and

I will, know, prime example, we're up here in Queensland, Forex Gold used to be the market dominator, they used to be my client, and CU, you know, some people in CUB and head office in Melbourne decided to come up with a beer called, you know, Great Northern, and basically position it as a beer for fishers, fishermen, hunters, etc. And now I've had people going, you know,

Ask them why they drink it and they go well, it's it's it's a Queensland beer. It's from here I'm like it's a Japanese owned beer that was brought to come up with in in a brainstorm in Victoria And you're buying the brand you're drinking the brand And so you can apply that thinking to any business, right? Yeah, how do you how do you start with? customer first

Simon Dell (11:07.576)
Mm.

Simon Dell (11:13.708)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (11:25.038)
That digressing there, was a relatively, that was a masterstroke on CUB's point. they'd spent many, many years trying to get a cut of the Queensland market by flogging VB. the Queensland market just did not want to drink VB. And you know.

obviously somewhere in a boardroom, somewhere in CUB, made the wise decision that, you know, creating something that had a perception, a perception of origin, I guess, because I mean, was made down in Yatla, which is technically Queensland, but which is Queensland. But as you say, none of it is really Queensland, is it?

Jamie (12:20.64)
manufactured it's not

Simon Dell (12:23.294)
The heart doesn't belong. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I mean, again, digressing off, but I used to have those conversations with Heineken about, you know, people would go, I'm not going to drink Heineken unless it was the Heineken that was brewed in Amsterdam. And then all of a sudden they start drinking it in Sydney and everybody drinks Heineken. Nobody's like, nobody's sort of suddenly coming back to that message later on.

Jamie (12:26.69)
and what is heart, you It's a brand, it's a story.

Simon Dell (12:52.502)
You know, it's, yeah, anyway.

Jamie (12:53.186)
No. But if you wanted to take it even smaller than that, if you think about small choices you make, what real estate agent do you go with? It's about mental availability. It's about being present in your mind when you come to the buying decision. There's a reason why your local

you know retail agent will sponsor the local football team, the grassroots football team. It's because you know you've to remember that only 5 % of your customer is ever in market at any one time for your product. So there's 95 % of them who aren't in market. So you need to be selling and building that mental availability and that presence in their mind to the point when they are in the decision making.

Sorry in that purchase moment that you're the top of mind and so can apply, know apply that To all these small businesses as well

Simon Dell (13:51.042)
Yep. Yeah.

Simon Dell (13:59.438)
So out of what you've done in the past, what do you consider your strengths when you stand in front of a prospect client and why Jamie above anybody else?

Jamie (14:10.658)
.

Well I think that's partly how I position my consultancies around simplicity but reducing noise to focus on what's effective, right? And whether that's thinking about the audience first, whether... well I'll go back to thinking about the audience first. Whether it was trying to sell the Olympics to a media buyer or it's trying to flog beer for 4X gold.

It's kind of audience-first marketing but I think what a lot of people get trapped with is They can understand that as a theory but in practice, they're so bogged down in their businesses. It's You know, they've got legacy behaviors or that, you know, they've got legacy structures They can't see the wood for the trees and freaking out by AI

Simon Dell (14:58.99)
Hmm.

Jamie (15:03.426)
and what I bring is 25 years of experience but really an external perspective to help shine a light on actually what they should be doing and what's going to shift the dial.

Simon Dell (15:12.652)
Yeah. And so given all that, you know, I think that's, you know, that's a great answer. Where are you, where do you still see yourself developing in terms of, you know, skills or understanding? Because, well, I'll end the question there. Where do you think you've still got opportunities to develop?

Jamie (15:37.11)
Well, so I mean AI, whole, where's that going to fit in? And I'm not going to make this about AI for the podcast because you're going to be pushing this out on LinkedIn where everyone's second, every other post is about AI. But it's clearly a thing that's here and we need to learn about it. And, you know, as a senior marketer, which is a nice polite way of saying getting old, you need to stay relevant. you know, so I play

Simon Dell (15:39.981)
Yep.

Simon Dell (16:03.661)
Yeah.

Jamie (16:05.364)
I play Roblox with my kids and you know I hate it and Minecraft but I go I want to go see what's in their world right and you've got to stay curious and you've got to keep learning so that's probably the big one and then the shift from being in a company to being my own consultancy

is another one where you've got to balance how you scale selectively. How do you turn down a good opportunity to go with a great one?

Simon Dell (16:37.838)
Yeah.

Jamie (16:38.21)
And then also how are you on the balcony and the dance floor at the same time? Because you've to roll up your sleeves and get busy, but at the same time you've got to keep that strategic view. And it's kind of what I was just talking about in terms of what I offer to businesses as an experienced external perspective.

I know that I will be in that point as well where I'll need people around me who give me their external perspective and hold up a mirror. You can't do it all on your own.

Simon Dell (17:13.614)
Yeah, so you've had this, I was gonna say glittering career, agency side, and obviously working with some huge brands, Channel Nine, you've now done the thing where you're like, hey, I'm gonna go and do this all on my own now. What led you to that decision? Was there a light bulb moment or is that something that had been sort of just brewing over time?

Jamie (17:40.13)
I think it's Somebody's sent to me. Are you gonna miss working on all these big brands? It's not really And and who's to say I won't be working with them anyway, but I think working for a big organization when it's no secret that nine had a Shit show of a cultural review last year 30 % of people interviewed over a thousand people had experienced sexual harassment 60 % had experienced workplace bullying. I don't want to be in that environment again

So being being out on my own allows me to some degree pick and choose who I work with and I'm quite motivated by seeing you know working with smaller companies and smaller businesses where you can see the impact of your work more immediately And you can see it in the human level as well, right? If you're if you're dealing with a founder or you're dealing with a you know owner operator

Simon Dell (18:32.398)
Hmm.

Jamie (18:39.758)
This isn't just a three year gig and then they'll move on to something else. This is their life. And so that becomes a much more powerful motivator than shifting brand preference on Combank. That said, I do love working with Combank. So we did some great work.

Simon Dell (18:43.992)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jamie (19:03.822)
Exactly exactly so you know it's not what one is not necessarily better than the other But I just am at a point where I want to be able to pick and choose who I work with both in terms of within my team and also within With clients as well, which is I've created the model. I've created which is so I've

Simon Dell (19:09.805)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (19:19.596)
Yeah.

Jamie (19:23.958)
what I'm calling a fractional agency. So I'll go in as a consultant, but I've got a bench of talent that I can reach out to and go, okay, I'll curate a team to solve a problem. Rather than I'm going to go hire a bunch of people and then sweat on the fact that I've got to utilise them. Because a lot of those people aren't necessarily, in that old agency model, I'll have people that aren't necessarily the right fit for the client's problem.

Simon Dell (19:42.008)
Yes. Yes.

Jamie (19:53.26)
But my problem is I need to utilise them, so I'm pushing them and the reality is that is... Just pause. Hang on.

Simon Dell (20:04.706)
The dog's going off. Yeah, mine almost went there. Someone dropped something at the front. That's all right. We'll edit these bits out. That's fine.

Jamie (20:17.57)
you

Jamie (20:58.338)
The other advantage of working for yourself is you get to see how much your wife spends on online shopping.

Simon Dell (21:05.954)
Yeah, my dog was now wandering around looking for your dog because she could hear it. I forgot where we were at there, so.

Jamie (21:13.762)
Talk about the agency model.

Simon Dell (21:15.852)
Yeah, okay, so yeah, tell me, tell me more about that. Yeah, tell me more about the model.

Jamie (21:20.13)
Okay, so, yeah, so it's a fractional agency is the idea. So instead of having a, you know, building out a team that you employ that you then have to worry about utilizing, I come in as a consultant, have a bench of talent built up over many years. And once I've understood what the client problem is, I will curate a team to that, to solve that problem.

rather than in an agency model the client's got a problem and I'll go well I've got old mate over here who's at 60 % utilization they're perfect for your job and it's like well no I'm solving my problem I'm not solving the client's problem because the client you know that person may not be fit for purpose for the problem that the client's got also means I don't carry the overhead right so I can come in more cost-effectively and

Simon Dell (21:54.466)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jamie (22:13.218)
Also, I'm a senior astrologist, right? You don't need me on a full-time basis. So I come in and quite often would then hand over to other capabilities and get the hell out of the way. You can still be there and check in, but you you don't need to employ me on a full-time basis.

Simon Dell (22:32.014)
It's why I think the fractional model works so well. And I think the more and more people learn about it, the more it's gonna be utilized in both sides of the equation. think there's a lot of agencies that are looking at it now going, I don't need to carry a full-time creative. I can just use a fractional, you know.

you know, art director or senior creative or graphic designer when I need one. And again, I think that that's always been there, but I just don't think it's potentially being recognized as an option. was, you know, I don't think people saw it as a way of building value in their business. I think they saw it as a means to an end.

And I think now people can look at it and go, okay, this is actually a viable way of building the talent pool that I need without the massive overheads associated with it.

Jamie (23:23.33)
Yeah.

Jamie (23:35.362)
Yeah, I think I've interviewed a few ex clients and agency people about the model and it used to be that you know feedback from people is it used to be that you want continuity of capability in your resource and so you'd go with the one agency and you'd only stick with those people because they knew your business inside out but actually people are getting more promiscuous because a they haven't got the budgets to afford big retainers

Simon Dell (23:55.65)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (24:02.84)
Yeah.

Jamie (24:02.846)
and B, they want diversity of thought, they want different thinking. And this allows you to do it. I've also run in-house teams, like, yeah, I ran an in-house team at Nine. And if you think about it, half the time you don't need to employ those people on a full-time basis, right? At Nine we did very little marketing in December and January. We ran an events team that would have been putting on the Australian Open in February.

So they would be working. But in theory, you didn't need to pay me from the 15th of December to the 15th of January. And then multiply that across a whole bunch of roles, and you're going to save a whole bunch of money.

Simon Dell (24:39.138)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (24:45.324)
Yeah. Yeah. I think there was a couple of years ago, not last Christmas, Christmas before that I'd sort of I think I must have sat there for about four or five weeks twiddling my thumbs going, what am I? What am I doing? What's happening here over over that exact that exact period that sort of week before Christmas to, you know, middle of January, late January.

And I was, you know, it kind of reflected to sort of say, there's a couple of important things to factor into that is that yes, the client doesn't need you for that time. taking their money feels a bit disingenuous over that time. Cause you know, Hey, I'm on holiday. I'm on a beach or whatever. But I think also then as a fractional marketing, as a fractional CMO or any fractional marketing, you probably need to sit there and go, I need to earn 12 months salary in 11 months.

You know, I need my cost to reflect that when I go and price myself up because I need to sit there and go, let's assume that within four weeks, five weeks of the year, I'm just simply not gonna be working. I'm not gonna be invoicing anybody. You know, so.

Jamie (25:53.794)
but on the flip side, I've spent 25 years PAYG paying 50 % tax.

Simon Dell (26:00.269)
Yes.

Yes, yes, yes. So look, in terms of you looking for businesses, is there a type of business that you're looking for? mean, obviously you've obviously had background in sports and sporting properties and media and those kinds of things. Is that where you wanna sort of continue to play or you think that's where your strength lies?

Jamie (26:21.826)
Yeah, I've been asking myself the same question because I've got the diversity of the background, but I think, yeah, I mean, my experience is perfect for a rights holder looking to go to market and think about their commercial offering. It's perfect for anyone who's thinking about or is in sponsorship. And then there's also the B2B side of things from Nine and...

There's not that many of us in the market who are good at B2B marketing. And so I'm having conversations with media owners, not mine, but media owners who have got rid of their senior capability, have junior people in the role, but still need that strategic capability, know, now to come in on a short term sprint. So.

Simon Dell (26:53.699)
Mm.

Jamie (27:14.37)
There's a few different clients. And then, you know, I just came from an industry event for a totally different sector, but they're all in B2B and they, you know, they all have different challenges on, you know, how do I engage government or how do I engage, you know, wholesalers? You know, everyone needs to tell their story though. Everyone needs to, you know.

Simon Dell (27:41.058)
Yeah, and everyone needs to find that connection. think as you said right at the start, everyone needs to find that. I love the Venn diagram example. I think that's great one and I will steal that many times in the future. But you're right, that you sit there and I know everything about us, I think about, know, at CMO, is put that customer first thing is what are the challenges that the customer, what's the customer passionate about and what are we trying to...

Jamie (27:53.461)
You

Simon Dell (28:09.112)
present and where's the overlap in that little Venn diagram? And those questions sort of are swirling around in my head now enough. And it's amazing that I'm in marketing, I've been doing this for a long time, but still I ask myself those questions like once a month, just to sit there and go, are we doing the right thing? Are we talking about the same thing that the customer's passionate about?

you know, or are we, you know, do we have this illusion that we've, that they have a problem that we can solve that isn't actually the problem. So it's, it's interesting. All the things you've said today, I think really are, are often really tough questions that businesses need to ask themselves more often.

Jamie (28:59.938)
So think that's an interesting one for you to consider is who your audience is. Because you would say a fractional CMO in theory would be you'd go pitch it to a marketing department as an additional capability. But actually it's the CFO that's probably the one you want to engage because CFOs are ruling the world at the moment.

Simon Dell (29:04.333)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (29:22.636)
Yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true. just to sort of finish up here, what are the, you you've gone out on your own or you've decided to go on out on your own, what's been the toughest bit so far? Is it the fact that there's not that, you know, that the regular paycheck isn't arriving in the bank account?

Jamie (29:45.002)
No, I think there'll definitely be those moments and you know, it's difficult to you know, when they when there are those moments, it's difficult to be in flow and be yourself. But I think the biggest one was was having worked for these big companies. Let's say M &C Saatchi, you know, I was there for eight years, but when I joined, you inherit a narrative, you inherit the brand, you inherit

their language around strategy and all those things and it's kind of you're ripping off the safety net of that by going out on your own and creating your own brand and creating your own narrative and your own story. Sure I'm leaning on all of that experience but when it's you that can be quite a vulnerable position to be in.

Simon Dell (30:33.678)
Yep.

Jamie (30:37.921)
But probably the biggest learning I've had is like that's okay. It's okay to be vulnerable and there's a hell of a lot of really good people out there that will give you the time of day and advice and It's it's daunting but it's also rewarding You know, I spoke to a prime example of that I to somebody I hadn't spoken to in about seven years who I worked with at NNC just yesterday and he was talking about you know, when you when you're out on your own the highs

are higher and the lows are lower, but they're yours and that's quite a big difference. And so yeah, it's going to be a bit of a journey, but it's surely going to be an interesting one and one that in theory I'm in control of.

Simon Dell (31:26.606)
And again, I'll ask you this question. I think you've probably answered it enough times during the session here, but what's that ultimate reward for you out of all of this?

Jamie (31:40.642)
Well I think there's a financial one because I've got three young boys but that would be a disingenuous answer because if it was all about money then I'd be going and trying to get the big job at the big company again. For me it's really that sense of partnership and seeing the impact of your work on

where you can actually see it and feeling like there's a purpose to what you're doing. When you're one cog in a big machine, I've got the 140 million for the Olympics and Paralympics, but that wasn't just me, there was a team of people, But that was a rare example where there's a really big tangible result. A lot of it is you're just edging the machine forward. And I think...

Simon Dell (32:04.92)
Hmm.

Simon Dell (32:25.25)
you

Jamie (32:30.978)
Yeah, that realisation of the output of your efforts is going to be really rewarding.

Simon Dell (32:37.966)
Yeah, it's from my perspective, I think, you know, I'd echo that as well. think, I mean, I'll give you an example. I'm going to go and see a business tomorrow who's a small catering business that, you know, turning over a million dollars. And when I first met her, she looked drained. She was like, I'm over this. don't see her.

You know, you get this vibe that she was like, how long do I keep doing this for? And what I hope to inject with her is to sit there and go, okay, here is a plan now. Here is a route for you to achieve what you want to achieve. You know, largely through marketing with a big dose of sales in the top of that.

Operationally, think she's completely, she knows what she's doing operationally, but she's confused as to how the business grows in the position that she's in at the moment. And I think if I can go into that and say, these are the things you need to do, and then help them through that and go, this is, meet this person, they'll help you do this, meet this person, and make sure you're that sort of conductor in the, conductor of the orchestra, as it were.

It is, it is supremely rewarding. And yes, there's going to be moments when you're sitting in board meetings in other clients where you want to bash your head against the table and things like that. But for me, I echo what what you, you know, what you've said there is that genuinely, I don't want this to sound wanky or anything, but genuinely you can change people's lives. And I think that that's a great legacy to want to leave behind.

Jamie (34:29.388)
Yeah, and I think within this is the variety as well of where you can pick and choose where you work. I think that's bit of an unspoken benefit for being a fractional is you can, it's interesting, I've had conversations where I want to, mean, conversations with a kids charity.

Simon Dell (34:50.466)
Yeah.

Jamie (34:51.586)
which is really cathartic and a of a soul cleanse from some of the other jobs I've done in 25 years. But on the other hand, I'm talking to a guy about some tech platforms and taking that to market and kind of weird penny drop moment because it's really obvious, but I was just like, don't know, halfway through the conversation, I like, oh, I can do actually what I want. Not.

I'm in the confines of a job description within the one organisation doing the, you that's not to say I didn't have a shit ton of fun, you know, especially in the sponsorship world where you know, going to cricket and going to music and doing lots of interesting things, but I just, there's going be a sense of what's on me I think.

Simon Dell (35:29.474)
Yeah.

Simon Dell (35:36.27)
Last question then, if people want to reach out to you, obviously they can do that through CMO, but if they want to reach out to you directly, you're not hard to find on LinkedIn, but what's the new website and the new email address?

Jamie (35:53.922)
Yeah, so well LinkedIn is best, yeah, OccamStrategy.au is the website. But yeah, it's probably best to go through LinkedIn. You'll find me, you'll find the website. And feel free to reach out on LinkedIn Messenger as well. Whether you want some advice, yeah, starting out in your own thing.

stuck in corporate world and thinking how do I get out and escape or if you're interested in some of my experience and how it might be able to help you then give me a shout.

Simon Dell (36:27.052)
Awesome. Mate, thank you very much for your time today. It's gonna be extremely enjoyable watching the business grow in next 12 months and being part of that. So thank you for being on today.

Jamie (36:40.029)
Thanks for having me.