[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back to another episode of the Baseball America College Baseball podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: My name is Jacob Rudger.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm joined as always by my co-host Peter Flaherty.

[SPEAKER_03]: Peter, we're on the every other week schedule right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: So we're not talking to the good people all the time, but Tuesdays are our off season day.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we have hit that day of the week.

[SPEAKER_03]: We are in our second off season episode.

[SPEAKER_03]: How are you, how's the cape?

[SPEAKER_03]: And just, you know, general thoughts, college baseball lately.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's slowing down out there in the news cycle.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was going to say doing well.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're kind of in the in the dog days here, not just of summer, but also in the college baseball calendar.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like you said, everything is kind of slowing down.

[SPEAKER_02]: The portal closed now over a month ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: Really everyone seemingly in the portal has committed the coaching carousel has quieted down.

[SPEAKER_02]: So now it's just kind of a waiting game.

[SPEAKER_02]: until all the guys who back to campus and fall ball starts ramping up.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we start here in various nuggets and getting pieces of information from programs on how guys are doing in the fall.

[SPEAKER_02]: So right now it's pretty much status quo.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sort of past the point of enjoying a little bit of downtime after the college world series and I'm already like looking forward for everything starting to ramping up again.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's been going well.

[SPEAKER_03]: And with rosters starting to wrap up here, you mentioned just how things are slowing down.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that is the coaching hiring cycle that's the transfer portal cycle, a lot of rosters are now settled for the most part.

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe a team here are there adding a portal player or a late high school edition just in the aftermath of the draft.

[SPEAKER_03]: Teams trying to fill some final holes, but generally speaking,

[SPEAKER_03]: The roster process is done.

[SPEAKER_03]: And one thing that we've heard a lot about so far this off season.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's been a theme both on the record.

[SPEAKER_03]: We've had coaches like West Johnson and Tony Vitello, among a bunch of others from the mid major level, go on record to say there has been a lot of tampering.

[SPEAKER_03]: Our players have heard from other coaches.

[SPEAKER_03]: We know it.

[SPEAKER_03]: We've seen the messages, whether that's a coach to an agent or a parent or a former high school coach or to the player himself.

[SPEAKER_03]: We've heard about it a ton.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that given the topic that it's become, I wanted to discuss with you what exactly that means.

[SPEAKER_03]: When we hear tampering for somebody who might be new to the college sports landscape, just briefly, why don't you give us a definition as to what we're talking about?

[SPEAKER_03]: You cover the portal so well for us.

[SPEAKER_03]: You hear about this stuff all the time.

[SPEAKER_03]: What are we discussing here?

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, man.

[SPEAKER_02]: What doesn't it mean?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I know that kind of sounds crazy, but I guess just in a broad sense, in the context of the transfer portal, it involves a program expressing interest slash contacting or trying to find a way to contact a player who is not with their program that

[SPEAKER_02]: they would go after if they were to enter the portal and potentially even get a commitment from should the answer the portal.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like you said in your lead in, if you can think of it conceivably in your head as a way to contact the player or a way to get to the player, like they will do it, whether it's

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, agents and advisors, they're one of the same.

[SPEAKER_02]: But they've become an increasing factor in all of this.

[SPEAKER_02]: So.

[SPEAKER_02]: whether it's a coach or an assistant coach or anyone on staff going to that guy's advisor or even vice versa times potentially promising NL money or an increase in NL money or additional benefits.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's been done.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, coach to kid directly, even coach to parent.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the ways in which that they will contact these athletes, it gets really, really, really creative.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when I let into it with if you can think of it, it's been done like I mean it, you know, there are.

[SPEAKER_02]: some of the coaching staffs and some of the stuff that I've heard people are getting real creative and it's it's honestly mind boggling and it's the the transfer portal is wild enough but

[SPEAKER_02]: When you throw in quite frankly, the rampant tampering, that's what kind of makes it the wild wild west because there are guys that are finishing out their seasons for really, really good teams and teams that are on a tournament run or college world series contenders, they've pledged to go on the portal after the year or they're actively talking to their advisor about going into the portal

[SPEAKER_02]: you know parents about going into the portal and what have you so it's pretty nuts and I think that you know I've I've long been under the impression that it's gonna get worse before it gets better I don't know how worse it can get them this because it feels like this year was probably the most chaotic and hectic as it pertains to the whole tampering deal and you know

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm for the portal in the sense that, you know, if you use it logically, like if you are, if you have been passed over, if you've been recruited over, if it's clear and apparent you are not going to play or not be a factor.

[SPEAKER_02]: at the program you're currently at, you know, whether it's a genuinely not a good fit for whatever reason.

[SPEAKER_02]: If it's not a good fit, and you need a change of scenery, then by all means go for it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think it's highly beneficial, but if you're just bag chasing and, you know, trying to chase a couple more zero for NIL purposes and

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, anything other than that, like, you know, it's, that's when it can get pretty dangerous.

[SPEAKER_02]: I guess long-winded answer short is, you know, it's just kind of, it's messing with, you know, someone that's not currently with their program by however means necessary.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we've heard, it correct me if I'm wrong, but we've heard over the last couple of seasons.

[SPEAKER_03]: the term that the tampering has been more rampant than the year before.

[SPEAKER_03]: So every year we've kind of experienced this increase in the complaint that schools are going after other players, other teams, other teams players, excuse me.

[SPEAKER_03]: One thing that stood out to me, I was having a conversation with a mid major coach just last week.

[SPEAKER_03]: And he pointed out to me,

[SPEAKER_03]: the goal posts have to move when it comes to measuring success and what should keep approaching staff around when it comes to the mid-major level.

[SPEAKER_03]: One coach who I spoke with said that they had lost ten players to power four conferences over the course of a two-year stretch, including this offseason.

[SPEAKER_03]: And if you do the math, that makes it nearly impossible to be as successful as you anticipated.

[SPEAKER_03]: You had a roster that was set to be

[SPEAKER_03]: reasonably good or at least competitive, especially in some of these conferences that are really wide open in the mid major ranks.

[SPEAKER_03]: These one-bed schools where you're competing for a spot in your conferences tournament where you can theoretically go win that and get into the NCAA tournament.

[SPEAKER_03]: It makes it nearly impossible to be able to do that when you're losing players.

[SPEAKER_03]: What I am curious though.

[SPEAKER_03]: Is there a way for us to see an end to this?

[SPEAKER_03]: Because in my opinion, there's not.

[SPEAKER_03]: So long as there's a transfer portal, there will be tampering.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I also personally find it somewhat rich when we hear the complaints from coaches about my guys are hearing from other schools.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, this is a real big problem, which is true.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think that that's a bad point.

[SPEAKER_03]: But at the same time, I think it would be naive to believe.

[SPEAKER_03]: And again, correct me if I'm wrong.

[SPEAKER_03]: that not every school is participating in this to some degree.

[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe the schools that are under resource are not necessarily going after players that are already on teams and not yet in the transfer portal.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think there is still some integrity to that degree.

[SPEAKER_03]: However,

[SPEAKER_03]: Schools that have resources.

[SPEAKER_03]: Schools that are competitive every single season at the top of college baseball.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think to some degree are having conversations prior to players entering the portal, whether that's with an agent or a coach who's putting the word out there to expect an entry.

[SPEAKER_03]: That is just the nature of the game right now and whether or not people want to call it that.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's tampering.

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[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm kind of speechless because I think like a lot of other coaches you know it's almost I'm trying to think of a way to regulate it and you know how you can change it and what not and you know

[SPEAKER_02]: Like you said, that one coach is a good example of someone that's lost ten players.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't even know who the coach is for the record.

[SPEAKER_02]: But there are so many coaches nationwide who have lost ten plus guys, fifteen plus guys, even twenty plus guys.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, now with like you were saying with the roster changes, heading into this year, it puts a lot of a lot of different programs in a precarious spot and kind of adjusting on the fly.

[SPEAKER_02]: whatever it like in terms of regulating tampering, like in just kind of thinking it through and knowing the ways in which they get to these kids and how they sell them and how they contact them like there's there's no way to to totally prevent contacting a kid.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, maybe put a rule in place that

[SPEAKER_02]: you know, with a heavy punishment that discourages against it, but they're still going to contact the kid nonetheless.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so I mean, it's, it's really just impossible, which is kind of crazy to say and sad to say, but it really is going to be impossible to stop the tampering.

[SPEAKER_02]: Regardless of what happens with, you know, shifting the portal window, um, shifting some of the portal rules and regulations a little bit like,

[SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't solve this problem.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, the airplane is always going to be there.

[SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it is law, and especially, like you said, with the schools with more lucrative NIL funds in NIL money at their disposal, like whatever they want to go after in terms of contacting a player, like they're going to be able to.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's kind of a bummer to be totally honest, but you know, it's kind of just the, that's where the college game is at right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's in a really interesting spot.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think going forward.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think that there's a way to solve it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It being tampering.

[SPEAKER_03]: Let's, I mean, look at this, just as an example, that is worth talking about.

[SPEAKER_03]: You and I spent a ton of time over the course of the last year talking about how Western Kentucky was positioning itself to be really excellent, potentially just with the coaching that they have, which we've written about and discussed as being really good, plus the roster that they were able to put together.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think was underrated.

[SPEAKER_03]: They had a lot of guys who I think

[SPEAKER_03]: were or will be professional prospects.

[SPEAKER_03]: They lost, I think, thirty players to the transfer portal this offseason.

[SPEAKER_03]: And some of them are going to return.

[SPEAKER_03]: Some of them haven't found destinations yet, which I suppose leaves the door open to potentially returning.

[SPEAKER_03]: Some signed pro-contracts, others, thirteen, I believe, are committed or transferring already signed with powerful schools.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you have a team that was borderline NCAA Tournament at large caliber that won a whole bunch of games that was coached really well, that did a great job of putting together a roster and due to the resource deficit.

[SPEAKER_03]: Western Kentucky's in a really interesting spot.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, they have had to reload in a way that is more severe than arguably anybody else this entire off season.

[SPEAKER_03]: So you're looking like the mid major level has the potential to be completely decimated by this trend.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that that's not an overstatement at this point.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, not at all.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like you were saying, with Western Kentucky, and these are, this is not talking about, even, or not even including, you know, something like a Ryan Wyman who committed to Clemson as a leverage move and was drafted and signed from this year's team and guys who could have returned.

[SPEAKER_02]: They are sending players to programs like Virginia, Troy, Arizona State, Texas, Central Florida, South Carolina, Kentucky, Arizona, Kansas State, Liberty, California.

[SPEAKER_02]: like it's pretty remarkable when you think about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I mentioned a couple of times the draft podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think I mentioned it a couple of times.

[SPEAKER_02]: at various points this fall and spring on the college pod.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but an kind of an interesting way to lean into it at this point.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and the only program I've seen do it or the only couple of programs I've seen do it are Mount St.

[SPEAKER_02]: Mary's in Sac State Sacramento State with, um, behavioral lawyer.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but almost just, you know, sort of, I don't know if promoting is the right word, but saying, hey,

[SPEAKER_02]: you know, here's where we send our guys and that was more the angle of Mount St.

[SPEAKER_02]: Mary's and it was like

[SPEAKER_02]: I'd love to find the tweet because it'd be awesome to display on a video, but it was the crux of it was like, hey, you know, all of these guys started with us at Mount St.

[SPEAKER_02]: Mary's and here's where they've gone on to play and it was something like LSU.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know LSU was on there in a couple of other or a few other powerful programs.

[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was really interesting and cool, but circling back to your initial point of

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, where does this leave the quote unquote mid major programs just by conference designation?

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't really know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if you're losing, you know, you're not going to lose thirty guys a year like Western Kentucky is, but, you know, that's not sustainable to continue to rebuild your roster and can find ten, fifteen, twenty guys to replace those that are leaving.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's just impossible to do that year after year.

[SPEAKER_02]: Again, I don't really know where we go from here to prevent it or what it looks like in the future, but I hate to be morbid and sort of like, you know, you were saying, but, you know, doesn't mean the, I just, it's gonna be really interesting, sort of the divide and disparity between those schools with huge NAL pools, especially in just powerful programs in general.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, mid major schools because it's losing twenty guys a year.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's, you know, it's, it's impossible to keep up with.

[SPEAKER_03]: Here's that tweet or one of the tweets that you were referencing.

[SPEAKER_03]: Sacramento State after Wihivo, Loay won the Golden Spikes Award.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_03]: We're grateful you started your collegiate career in Sacramento.

[SPEAKER_03]: You made a tremendous impact with your teammates and our coaching staff.

[SPEAKER_03]: Good luck in the next phase of your career.

[SPEAKER_03]: I actually tend to agree with you because I do think that there's something to be said for the fact that

[SPEAKER_03]: The tampering will continue.

[SPEAKER_03]: The tampering will continue.

[SPEAKER_03]: The transferring to move up just, you know, when levels, if we're going to call that as it is, throughout College Baseball for a player like the Hevo Loy will continue to happen, tampering or not.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's another, you know, really important part of this.

[SPEAKER_03]: And as well to make clear, we're not at all saying that the Hevo Loy was tampered with.

[SPEAKER_03]: He was a perfect candidate to move up from a place like Sacramento State into the SEC where he was one of and

[SPEAKER_03]: by the Golden Spike Standard, the best baseball player in the country.

[SPEAKER_03]: That made a lot of sense.

[SPEAKER_03]: I would look at a guy like Blake Gillespie technically going the other way, who we talked about on two weeks ago show, who went from Georgia, where he had a chance to maybe a low leverage middle reliever, and then he goes to Charlotte and ends up being one of the best pictures in the country.

[SPEAKER_03]: Those transfer stories make a lot of sense, and this is nothing to do with tampering, but if you're a Sacramento State and you have an opportunity to market,

[SPEAKER_03]: the fact that you're sending players to Arkansas, that you're putting players on the track to win something like the Golden Spikes, why would you not make that a part of the cell?

[SPEAKER_03]: So I agree with you that that's smart.

[SPEAKER_03]: The other thing that I think is worth discussing before we move on and this kind of moves us on to our next topic is what does it take to win in twenty twenty six?

[SPEAKER_03]: Can you be transfer heavy and win?

[SPEAKER_03]: Can you still be high school heavy and win?

[SPEAKER_03]: We talked about UCLA being a school a great example of somebody that isn't very transfer heavy.

[SPEAKER_03]: They've built the vast majority of their roster from the ground up with great success.

[SPEAKER_03]: what is required nowadays and especially so, by the way, for the mid majors like the Western Kentucky's and the schools that are in the pocket of, we know we're gonna lose a bunch of guys at the high major level because that's just the landscape right now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Is it JuCo recruiting?

[SPEAKER_03]: Is it continuing to stay old and going through the transfer portal?

[SPEAKER_03]: To me, that's the route I'm curious what you think.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we saw a perfect example of a this year with Kansas though it's a big twelve program and Coach Fitzgerald and his staff's ability to recruit at the junior college level and quite frankly dominate that landscape but even a school like Western Kentucky or you know any of these other prominent mid major programs are in a different bucket than Kansas just for a number of reasons.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think at that level

[SPEAKER_02]: And this will kind of segue a little bit into the next topic as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: But recruiting at a really high level with the past over player, whether it be in a hotbed region like a Texas.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we saw an example of that with East and Windfield and Louisiana Monroe a couple of years ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: East and Windfield was

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, Texas kid, it's kind of easy to be, to get overlooked in, in such a, you know, powerhouse state.

[SPEAKER_02]: No one was really on him.

[SPEAKER_02]: Louisiana Monroe was any pops there ends up transferring a Texas obviously ended up transferring again this year, but.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think recruiting Passover players and having an eye for kind of diamonds in the rough is huge.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then also a little bit like a Northeastern.

[SPEAKER_02]: Northeastern has a luxury of being around a handful of quality division two and division three programs in its own region.

[SPEAKER_02]: But going after guys from division two and division three schools who are high level performers, either at the respective program,

[SPEAKER_02]: Or, you know, if they popped in the Northwoods league or the NECBL or if they had a good summer in the Cape, if they had a good summer in the Cape, they're going to be a whole lot of programs on them.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's all about finding the diamonds in the rough and then also the junior college level, the NII level, that plays a huge part.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think finding

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, guys on which you're convicted in developing, you're convicted on their now talent.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's more important for some of the mid major programs, the aspect of now talent than it is developing them because it almost feels like and I don't know how this will hold up over time.

[SPEAKER_02]: It feels like the mid major level in terms of just transferring

[SPEAKER_02]: It almost has a junior college feel with guys leaving after one or two years, even three, which doesn't fit the traditional juke of mold.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, there's a lot of one or two year stints before they, you know, say happy trails.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's all about, you know, you got to be able to recruit Western Kentucky, you can clearly recruit Dallas Baptist, you can clearly recruit

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's going out there grinding it out and finding these, these, you know, I've used the phrase so many times now, but the diamonds in the rough like the past over high school kid, the stand out division two or division three kid.

[SPEAKER_02]: The Juico ball or guys that can, that guys that can help your program win immediately.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's going to be a key going forward.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, it's, it's going to be a whole lot to sustain it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but that's, that's kind of my best answer for them curious where you're at though.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, say, too, we are seeing more schools at the very high end of the power for scale, the Florida is the Clemsons.

[SPEAKER_03]: You know, you can even drop it down a level within the power for

[SPEAKER_03]: Kansas, Penn State, all these schools this offseason took at least one division two player.

[SPEAKER_03]: So this is not necessarily a you need to go and find JuCo or NIA guys.

[SPEAKER_03]: There are a lot of good players and with the way the eligibility is working right now because it's unique.

[SPEAKER_03]: There are a lot of good players at the division two level who are gaining eligibility one more season who have the opportunity to go and play for your club.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that that could ultimately end up proving and will be tracking it.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I think that could prove to be a really successful route because the reality is a lot of those guys are not commanding the same NIL as your top division one transfers.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we saw a guy like trade beard go from FAU to FSU and we don't need to discuss it to tell people this.

[SPEAKER_03]: There was, you know, a payment that came with that and that was a price tag that FSU had to meet to get who we believe to be one of if not the best left handed pictures who were available in the portal this year and you're going to pay for that if you have the resources so that's not, you know, to the fault of an FSU, they did exactly what you would expect and they got it done.

[SPEAKER_03]: Schools like Florida that might not have had the resources at the end of the process to be able to bring in a left-handed pitcher.

[SPEAKER_03]: They lose a guy like Frank Menendez, who they were counting on to be good.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they go and they get Ernesto Lugo-Canchola, who is the pitcher of the year in, in, twenty-twenty-five.

[SPEAKER_03]: Older guys, twenty-three years old, not necessarily the hardest throwing or the best stuff on left-handed pitchers, but you're getting experience.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're getting somebody who's had proven success.

[SPEAKER_03]: I believe he had a two-ERA in just over a hundred innings in twenty-twenty-five.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think personally that that physical maturity and the track record combines to give you somebody who has a very high floor, maybe not a very high ceiling, but somebody for the price tag who's gonna do a really good job.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so I think that there could be a level of equalizing that occurs.

[SPEAKER_03]: If a lot more schools buy into this concept of, we don't necessarily need to take on the top pro prospect guys.

[SPEAKER_03]: We need to take on guys who are going to be

[SPEAKER_03]: very physically developed, mature in terms of their mindset and how they approach the game, the makeup, and you bring these guys in who are twenty one to twenty three years old and their physical maturity, in my opinion, beats a lot of the very talented kids in the eighteen to twenty year old class, am I am I off base there?

[SPEAKER_02]: No, and I think that there's a whole lot to be said for experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: We saw this year with Coastal Carolina.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's obviously that they had bullows of talent, but, you know, even Western Kentucky to an extent, like experience is so, so valuable.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, and I think it does help

[SPEAKER_02]: bridge the gap between, you know, raw tools and talent.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think, you know, once you're under, you're on a big stage, you're on a brightest lights.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I feel a lot more confident.

[SPEAKER_02]: you know, having a whole lot of twenty one and twenty two year olds, uh, you know, which isn't necessarily sustainable in today's college game, but give me all of the experience necessary and in the slowest heartbeats as opposed to, you know, eight or nine guys who the game, it could get sped up on them easily.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, I think there's a whole lot to be said for experience.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we've seen it work out, um,

[SPEAKER_02]: across a plethora of programs this year and how far can take them.

[SPEAKER_02]: It can experience, can take it Omaha and experience, can take you to a national championships.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm with you and I'm also of that line of thinking where

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, someone like that can be super, super valuable to your program and kind of shifting your focus from going after the tooled out top pro prospect type of guy, which, you know, obviously you're still going to want to go after, especially if you're one of these blue blood and in powerful programs, you know, players like that are certainly

[SPEAKER_02]: unbelievably valuable, but for some of the mid major programs, especially going after the consistent college performer who's done it for four years or three or four years prior to him committing to your school, I think that's someone that can help you win a lot of games.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, there are still ways to kind of go about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's getting increasingly more challenging, but there are ways to do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, even Northeastern, who I mentioned earlier on, they do a really, really good job of it of going after guys from

[SPEAKER_02]: division three programs up here in this neck of the woods in New England with.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Nicole College, Sawyer Regina, you know, you need Eastern Connecticut, Eastern Connecticut state members of the, awesomely named Little East Conference, but, you know, Northeastern landed a commitment from a kid from Sawyer Regina this year named Andrew Words who was nails at Sawyer.

[SPEAKER_02]: was unbelievable this summer in the NACBL was an all star.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's up to, you know, ninety five, ninety six with a real breaking ball and he's finishing out the summer on the cape like that is someone I don't want to say guarantee because that's you're playing a dangerous game there, but he will really pop.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think next year in Northeastern.

[SPEAKER_02]: and pitches way into a draft selection.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, there are guys out there who can provide a whole lot of value and help out your program a lot who might not necessarily come from, you know, the biggest name school.

[SPEAKER_03]: And none of this is to suggest that the high school avenue is not viable as well.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that we've also been able to see over the last couple of years that if you do it right and you commit to going really young and developing that you can win UCLA continues to be kind of a sterling example of that where you have thirty seven guys on a forty man roster who are high school recruits who you've developed to you've kind of molded in your own image.

[SPEAKER_03]: But I also would say that as much as that can be a

[SPEAKER_03]: financial equalizer and maybe to overcome a resource deficit where you're bringing in a bunch of young guys and you're not spending on college players who we know have a heavier price tag.

[SPEAKER_03]: It also comes with risk and there's risk on the on the transfer side too, but the reality is that

[SPEAKER_03]: younger players in today's game where a lot of these good teams are getting older as you and I have both said it doesn't always win and you can have very talented teams which I would say obviously UCLA did a year ago when they won nineteen games and then they brought the same team back to following year and you're in the college world series I think that that is a

[SPEAKER_03]: sign maybe for what that track could come with.

[SPEAKER_03]: There's extreme volatility.

[SPEAKER_03]: These down years in the developmental cycle when you're very young and you've had to replace a lot, which UCLA will have to do after twenty twenty six, you can swing down in the wrong direction.

[SPEAKER_03]: The upswing can be phenomenal.

[SPEAKER_03]: But you also have that kind of risk.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think at the same time, it's worth mentioning that if you go on this very heavy transfer route and you're replacing your roster every year, a lot of Kansas

[SPEAKER_03]: Kentucky has had to do it a couple times over the last few years.

[SPEAKER_03]: When you have older players, that kind of churn can be dangerous as well.

[SPEAKER_03]: So neither of these paths are the surefire answer.

[SPEAKER_03]: I just think, and this is maybe the concluding point of this portion of our podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: I just think that the quickest way to be good and to be able to beat some of these financial factors where you aren't the richest school and you have been tampered with and you have had big turnover and you want to stay good after that happens is probably to go to transfer out.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's a sure bet.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not a guarantee, but it is a better bet in my opinion to try and get good fast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm with the all the way.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wish I could expand more, but you know, I get the nail in the head.

[SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk about the coaching side of things because there's another interesting conversation to be having the finances on that side.

[SPEAKER_03]: We saw quite a few schools this offseason make moves that I thought ranged from very interesting to you know really encouraging you're talking about the Chris Pollards and the Brian O'Connor's

[SPEAKER_03]: of the world, obviously those were excellent hires.

[SPEAKER_03]: We've covered them on the podcast.

[SPEAKER_03]: There have been other moves that we have not yet had an opportunity to discuss.

[SPEAKER_03]: Butch Thompson, that Auburn gets extended, so does his entire staff.

[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody is on a new year, new deal there, including the assistants.

[SPEAKER_03]: Mike Glaven, who we've talked about a little bit on this show at Northeastern, he signed a five year extension.

[SPEAKER_03]: So we saw coaching staffs, extend new coaching staffs, a lot of big money thrown around there for the top names.

[SPEAKER_03]: Some of whom I just mentioned,

[SPEAKER_03]: And it leads me to this.

[SPEAKER_03]: When we're seeing these kinds of big moves, you know, whether that's an extension or a new higher pulmonary comes to mind from the previous coaching cycle at South Carolina.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that it has become harder to make changes to your coaching staff in this era.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is harder to justify spending money on a lofty baseball buyout, whether that's because you're hiring somebody who has a few years left on their deal or it's because you're firing somebody to try and make a change.

[SPEAKER_03]: I think that coaches have both, you know, a little bit extra leeway at the places that they're at.

[SPEAKER_03]: And at the same time, they're a little bit harder to poach.

[SPEAKER_03]: when it comes to the quote unquote you know coaching tampering process if you want to call it that I think that the landscape has changed I think that the money is going to go more towards revenue share schools are going to be more mindful of how they're spending when it comes to coaching staffs and I'm curious if you believe that that can impact recruiting because in my early experiences we enter this new era I have heard from quite a few agents who represent players or you know the representation the advisors however you want to call it

[SPEAKER_03]: They have said, you know, previously we wouldn't have necessarily considered the school because we thought that there would be a coaching change on the horizon.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now we're a little bit more confident in it because we don't think that this coaching staff is going where any time soon.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, in terms of recruiting, whether it be someone committing out of the portal, particularly a freshman, because if it's a sophomore going into his draft year, if you're talking about a prominent player, one year is one year, whether it's a freshman going into his sophomore year or a high schooler on the recruiting side, and fitting into the bucket of a kid who would have an agent and a representation, whatever you want to call it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think in a thousand percent impact recruiting and I think that you and I have heard the same thing from these agents and advisors where it's, you know, I don't know if we want to, you know, go down this avenue or, you know, that one of the main reasons why we picked school A over school B is

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we felt as if it was, you know, more of a lock that that staff would be in place for that player's time there instead of having him commit to school B and, you know, there was some turnover with the staff and then almost starting the process over again.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it all plays a part in recruiting and it's becoming a real interesting factor and I know that you are more dialed in and

[SPEAKER_02]: And plugged in on the finances of all of it, but I'm with you where schools are kind of more hesitant to spend that kind of money in today's day and age, you know, on a coaching change, especially if it's, you know, mega buy out or.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what what have you?

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I think they are are absolutely more leaning towards going the route of, you know, trying to keep as much money as possible and spending it elsewhere, whatever you want in whichever avenues benefit the program.

[SPEAKER_03]: And we can tie it all back to the first part of our conversation, too.

[SPEAKER_03]: A factor in this as well is

[SPEAKER_03]: If you change coaching staffs, you will have to change the vast majority of your roster.

[SPEAKER_03]: We know that schools are keen to try and keep their rosers intact.

[SPEAKER_03]: We saw exactly that occur when Texas A&M ultimately hired Michael Early out the gate.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think we can say that it happened again this off season when Texas A&M chose not to fire Michael Early.

[SPEAKER_03]: And part of that is because we know that that program has confidence in what he and his staff can do.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that was the case when they hired him in the first place.

[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously it was a factor this off season.

[SPEAKER_03]: However, we also know for a fact that there would have been an exodus from college station had Michael early not been hired in the first place.

[SPEAKER_03]: And just as well, had he not been retained this past off season.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that is also a financial game now.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's that's the thing that I think the people are losing sight of at this time in college sports.

[SPEAKER_03]: Not only do you have to pay for a new coaching staff if that's a buyout

[SPEAKER_03]: or paying a new coach, which oftentimes in today's day and age, if you want an upgrade, it's going to cost you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, if you don't have the means to hire the coach, you probably don't have the means to hire the roster, because that's what we're at now.

[SPEAKER_03]: You are hiring a roster.

[SPEAKER_03]: It is a pay for play era.

[SPEAKER_03]: And so if you can't replace your team with good players, you can easily and very quickly find yourself in a situation where you have a very expensive brand new coach, and you have a reasonably expensive brand new roster that had to come together in a very quick fashion, that is not a recipe for long-term success.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think schools are wary of that as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's such a good point too about, you know, one you'd have to go out and find an entirely new coaching staff

[SPEAKER_02]: And in today's day and age with the portal, you're going to have to go out and I don't want to say feel the new team because I think that's a little drastic.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in some cases, it's honestly not.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's really not.

[SPEAKER_03]: And I think the question is, sorry to interrupt you.

[SPEAKER_03]: But look at the course from this, this offseason.

[SPEAKER_03]: We saw Duke have a mass accident.

[SPEAKER_03]: We saw Virginia have a mass accident.

[SPEAKER_03]: Mississippi State had a mass accident and granted those three schools in particular were able to replace a lot very quickly, whether that's because of resources or

[SPEAKER_03]: players following their previous coaches to their new schools, that's all going to happen.

[SPEAKER_03]: But the reality at the front end of the situation is when coaches hit the the market and they get fired or they leave, so too do their players.

[SPEAKER_03]: And that's not talking about whether they follow or not, but it is proven now over time that when coaches change, we will see an exodus in mass.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's just how it is now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Sorry to interrupt you.

[SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm happy you jumped in because

[SPEAKER_02]: And not to keep going on and on about Texas A&M, but that is a good example.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that, you know, it was a little bit more vocal about what would have happened.

[SPEAKER_02]: Had coach early, not been brought back for twenty twenty six, but let's say in this alternate reality, Texas A&M decided to move on from coach early after twenty twenty five.

[SPEAKER_02]: You would have almost certainly had seen the big fish on that team like Gavin Gervovic and Caten Cerell hop into the portal.

[SPEAKER_02]: And potentially follow him to his next destination and the entire virtually the entire roster hop in the portal with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that creates a twofold mega mess for the program in the athletic department in trying to one.

[SPEAKER_02]: conduct a nationwide coaching search and hire a prominent candidate and a candidate that they feel good about and spending a lot of money to do it not only in the head coach, but in the coaching staff as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then after the fact rebuild a virtually the entire roster and replace

[SPEAKER_02]: almost all of the production from the twenty twenty five team and that's going to include spending a lot of money as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a it's a really interesting I don't think interesting is the word that anyone in the coaching space would use but it's a really chaotic and stressful and I think draining domino effect where it's like almost feels like if you like just poke one domino the domino being the head coach

[SPEAKER_02]: everything else falls and collapses behind it and they're like ten to fifteen dominoes after the fact and it's like you know on a human level I feel like people are just sitting there and it's like do we want to deal with this stress right now or like can we is this something that you know we can maybe wait on wait on being moving on from a head coach whether that buys a coach or coaching staff next year or two or three

[SPEAKER_02]: what have you, but I think it just creates.

[SPEAKER_02]: It adds way more chaos and so much more chaos to an already chaotic world, which is college baseball and the transfer portal and recruiting and the NIL era.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just like you're being pulled as an athletic department and coaching staff in like nine different directions and trying to satisfy a thousand different people, even just talking about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like

[SPEAKER_02]: It makes me have so much more respect and admire the coaches who can sustain success in today's college baseball world, that much more.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I know it's easier for some programs than others, but it really does make it remarkable when you think about what even in LSU is done with winning two national titles in the last three years.

[SPEAKER_02]: with someone like Coastal Carolina was able to do this year in twenty five and getting a national championship series like it's pretty remarkable.

[SPEAKER_03]: I look at the landscape now of college baseball and I think I'm like stuck between two trains of thana on one hand I think it's harder than ever to win like you just pointed out the fact that LSU in this time

[SPEAKER_03]: post twenty twenty with the shortened draft and everybody's more talented in college baseball and I think that coaches in the game would tell you that I think that executives at the MLB level would tell you that the game is more talented so on one hand it is extremely difficult to win multiple times but I I also struggle with the concept that perhaps it's also in a way easier than it's ever been to win depending on where you position yourself in college baseball because

[SPEAKER_03]: If you have the resources, plus the coaching talent, plus the eye for recruiting, that is a lethal combination.

[SPEAKER_03]: And if you have those three things on your staff, be it in the head coach by himself or the head coach plus who he surrounds himself with, which I think is more often the case than not, that allows you to probably sustain success in a way, plus the resources, sustain success in a way that other people cannot.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think LSU fits the mold of that perfectly.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's almost an unbeatable recipe to an extent.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think UCLA also fits the mold of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that we're going to see it in twenty twenty six.

[SPEAKER_02]: What exactly that can do for your program.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they're fresh off at Omaha runs.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's not like twenty twenty five with some like lurking in the grass, waiting in the weeds type of year.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean,

[SPEAKER_02]: you know, we're not waiting on UCLA, like they've already arrived.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think that twenty twenty six is going to be an even more prominent example of, you know, the vat and this isn't news to anybody.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, what high level recruiting and high level development looks like.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that it's it's they're going to be able to show that you can do it in house.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can win a national championship with ninety five percent plus in house guys, whether it be guys you recruited.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're a current freshman in twenty six, like someone like an Angel Servante, who will probably play a pretty prominent factor on the pitching staff or in terms of developing guys that you recruited at a high school with Rock Chalowski, Roman Martin, Dean West, Phoenix call really the entire roster.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, so it's interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like there are, there are multiple ways to do it and sustain success, but I think it's, it's invaluable.

[SPEAKER_02]: the recruiting and developing ability.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like if you have a couple of ace recruiters or even just an ace recruiter, that's gonna, I mean, that's gonna net your program a whole lot of success and lead to a probably a few dog piles, whether it be a conference title or regional title, super regional title, what have you.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think the ability recruit now is more important than ever.

[SPEAKER_03]: And if you want to continue to hear about it, we will continue to discuss this exact topic on the baseball America College baseball podcast about the rest of the off season, just a reminder we're only going on Tuesdays and that's every other Tuesday for the remainder of the off season once we get back into that.

[SPEAKER_03]: December January time will kick back to every week.

[SPEAKER_03]: And when we do that, we'll be on Mondays, but again, for now, every other week and on Tuesdays for the College Baseball podcast, I'm also going to take this opportunity to push you on over to the website.

[SPEAKER_03]: Head on over to BaseballAmerica.com slash college for all of Peter and my written content, the topics that you heard about on this podcast, we will be exploring at length throughout the off season via the written word, including a couple topics that will go over this week.

[SPEAKER_03]: We touch on coaching.

[SPEAKER_03]: of a story that comes out on my favorite coaching moves of the offseason.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's extensions, hires assistant coaching moves.

[SPEAKER_03]: And all the sort, Peter this week will have winners and losers from the transfer portal who did well and who maybe didn't.

[SPEAKER_03]: And there's a whole lot more.

[SPEAKER_03]: So again, baseballamerica.com slash college.

[SPEAKER_03]: Head out over to our YouTube channel at baseball America.

[SPEAKER_03]: You can subscribe over there and watch videos of the college podcast as well.

[SPEAKER_03]: But for this episode, that's going to do it for Peter Flarity.

[SPEAKER_03]: My name's Jacob Rudner and we will see you again in two weeks.