1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,059 INTRO: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where 2 00:00:06,060 --> 00:00:08,939 INTRO: we share learning and expertise in child protection 3 00:00:08,940 --> 00:00:12,399 INTRO: from inside and outside of the organisation. 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,459 INTRO: We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and 5 00:00:15,460 --> 00:00:18,179 INTRO: share good practice on how we can all work together 6 00:00:18,180 --> 00:00:21,139 INTRO: to keep babies, children and young people safe. 7 00:00:24,260 --> 00:00:27,739 PRODUCER: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast. 8 00:00:27,740 --> 00:00:29,699 PRODUCER: Online technology and the ubiquity of 9 00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:31,859 PRODUCER: smartphones have transformed the way that 10 00:00:31,860 --> 00:00:35,019 PRODUCER: children and young people interact with others. 11 00:00:35,020 --> 00:00:37,679 PRODUCER: This online landscape brings both benefits and 12 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,339 PRODUCER: risks, and one such risk is online sexual 13 00:00:40,340 --> 00:00:41,759 PRODUCER: extortion. 14 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:43,799 PRODUCER: Online sexual extortion, also known as 15 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,759 PRODUCER: sextortion, is a form of online blackmail that 16 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,219 PRODUCER: involves the threat of sharing nude or semi-nude 17 00:00:49,220 --> 00:00:52,199 PRODUCER: images or videos to extort money or force 18 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,839 PRODUCER: someone to do something against their will. 19 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,799 PRODUCER: In this podcast episode, recorded in March 2025, 20 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:00,739 PRODUCER: we'll be discussing what you can do to protect 21 00:01:00,740 --> 00:01:03,339 PRODUCER: children from this form of abuse. 22 00:01:03,340 --> 00:01:05,899 PRODUCER: I'm pleased to be joined by two expert guests to 23 00:01:05,900 --> 00:01:07,319 PRODUCER: discuss the topic. 24 00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:08,999 PRODUCER: Marie and Danielle, would you like to introduce 25 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:10,159 PRODUCER: yourselves, please? 26 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:11,619 DANIELLE HARRIS: Sure, my name is Danielle. 27 00:01:11,620 --> 00:01:13,959 DANIELLE HARRIS: I'm a Childline Team Manager and I work 28 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:16,239 DANIELLE HARRIS: on our [Childline] Reach programme. 29 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:18,959 DANIELLE HARRIS: So the Reach programme is a programme of 30 00:01:18,960 --> 00:01:21,019 DANIELLE HARRIS: work that looks at campaigns and 31 00:01:21,020 --> 00:01:22,579 DANIELLE HARRIS: activities to reach children and young 32 00:01:22,580 --> 00:01:24,239 DANIELLE HARRIS: people that we know as a service we're 33 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:25,819 DANIELLE HARRIS: less visible to. 34 00:01:25,820 --> 00:01:28,199 DANIELLE HARRIS: And our most recent campaign is called 35 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,099 DANIELLE HARRIS: Behind the Screen, which looks at 36 00:01:30,100 --> 00:01:33,159 DANIELLE HARRIS: reaching boys in terms of online sexual 37 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,318 DANIELLE HARRIS: extortion and raising awareness of this. 38 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:37,799 MARIE SMITH: Hey, hi. Thanks for having me. 39 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,739 MARIE SMITH: I'm Marie Smith. I oversee the CEOP education 40 00:01:40,740 --> 00:01:42,519 MARIE SMITH: programme that's based within the National 41 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,179 MARIE SMITH: Crime Agency. 42 00:01:44,180 --> 00:01:46,959 MARIE SMITH: We have resources that are run throughout 43 00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:50,099 MARIE SMITH: schools for age groups 4 to 18, 44 00:01:50,100 --> 00:01:52,399 MARIE SMITH: and a particular key threat of which we're 45 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,079 MARIE SMITH: focusing on at moment is what we're calling 46 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,459 MARIE SMITH: financially motivated sexual extortion. 47 00:01:57,460 --> 00:02:00,199 PRODUCER: Fantastic. Thank you both for joining me today. 48 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,419 PRODUCER: I think that a good place to start is the point 49 00:02:02,420 --> 00:02:03,799 PRODUCER: on terminology. 50 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,999 PRODUCER: So at the NSPCC, we use the term online sexual 51 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,418 PRODUCER: extortion to refer to the topic we're 52 00:02:09,419 --> 00:02:10,779 PRODUCER: discussing. 53 00:02:10,780 --> 00:02:13,299 PRODUCER: You've also might know this as sextortion as 54 00:02:13,300 --> 00:02:15,859 PRODUCER: well. And Marie, as you said, at CEOP, you use 55 00:02:15,860 --> 00:02:18,539 PRODUCER: the term financially motivated sexual extortion. 56 00:02:18,540 --> 00:02:21,459 PRODUCER: All of those terms, we'll come across in 57 00:02:21,460 --> 00:02:23,119 PRODUCER: our discussion today. 58 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:24,839 PRODUCER: Marie, I wonder if you could give us a quick 59 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,159 PRODUCER: introduction or a definition to what we mean 60 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:28,999 PRODUCER: when we say online sexual extortion. 61 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,239 MARIE SMITH: Yeah, of course. 62 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,079 MARIE SMITH: So we do a number of things at the National 63 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,479 MARIE SMITH: Crime Agency. And I guess within the CEOP 64 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,499 MARIE SMITH: child protection, child abuse arena, 65 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:41,019 MARIE SMITH: we have separated the sexual 66 00:02:41,020 --> 00:02:44,319 MARIE SMITH: extortion — so that's the grooming of 67 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:47,919 MARIE SMITH: young people for sexual gratification — 68 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:50,819 MARIE SMITH: we have that in a separate box, 69 00:02:50,820 --> 00:02:53,079 MARIE SMITH: shall we say, for the purposes of reporting 70 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,549 MARIE SMITH: and the response, of which we see. 71 00:02:55,550 --> 00:02:57,569 MARIE SMITH: Because the financial element, particularly 72 00:02:57,570 --> 00:02:59,649 MARIE SMITH: for children and young people, is relatively 73 00:02:59,650 --> 00:03:01,629 MARIE SMITH: new, particularly within the last couple of 74 00:03:01,630 --> 00:03:04,169 MARIE SMITH: years, we've slightly sectioned that out 75 00:03:04,170 --> 00:03:05,629 MARIE SMITH: because also we need to work with our 76 00:03:05,630 --> 00:03:08,149 MARIE SMITH: colleagues across our fraud teams. 77 00:03:08,150 --> 00:03:10,349 MARIE SMITH: And because of that financial element there's 78 00:03:10,350 --> 00:03:12,349 MARIE SMITH: a bit more crossover with regards to those 79 00:03:12,350 --> 00:03:14,729 MARIE SMITH: threats within the National Crime Agency. 80 00:03:14,730 --> 00:03:17,309 MARIE SMITH: So just to be very clear, I guess for us as 81 00:03:17,310 --> 00:03:20,089 MARIE SMITH: well, we see young males being predominantly 82 00:03:20,090 --> 00:03:22,889 MARIE SMITH: at risk. Not always, but the high majority of 83 00:03:22,890 --> 00:03:25,119 MARIE SMITH: young males being at risk of the financial 84 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:26,919 MARIE SMITH: elements, and then I guess the more kind of 85 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:29,339 MARIE SMITH: sexual element we are still seeing a very 86 00:03:29,340 --> 00:03:32,489 MARIE SMITH: high proportion of those being young females. 87 00:03:32,490 --> 00:03:34,509 PRODUCER: Danielle, is that similar to what you're seeing 88 00:03:34,510 --> 00:03:35,789 PRODUCER: on Childline? 89 00:03:35,790 --> 00:03:38,189 DANIELLE HARRIS: We've used the term sexually coerced 90 00:03:38,190 --> 00:03:41,269 DANIELLE HARRIS: extortion but we've also recognised the 91 00:03:41,270 --> 00:03:43,629 DANIELLE HARRIS: differences in gender as well, so what 92 00:03:43,630 --> 00:03:46,129 DANIELLE HARRIS: Marie was talking about in terms of how 93 00:03:46,130 --> 00:03:48,849 DANIELLE HARRIS: boys are specifically more at risk in 94 00:03:48,850 --> 00:03:51,029 DANIELLE HARRIS: terms of financially motivated online 95 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:52,529 DANIELLE HARRIS: extortion. 96 00:03:52,530 --> 00:03:54,729 DANIELLE HARRIS: We see that in the counselling room when 97 00:03:54,730 --> 00:03:56,849 DANIELLE HARRIS: young people are coming through to us. 98 00:03:56,850 --> 00:03:58,849 DANIELLE HARRIS: Boys will talk about the financial 99 00:03:58,850 --> 00:04:01,609 DANIELLE HARRIS: element of the extortion and girls will 100 00:04:01,610 --> 00:04:04,329 DANIELLE HARRIS: talk more of the sexual extortion that 101 00:04:04,330 --> 00:04:07,139 DANIELLE HARRIS: happens. So we are really seeing that in 102 00:04:07,140 --> 00:04:08,959 DANIELLE HARRIS: the counselling room and through young 103 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:10,300 DANIELLE HARRIS: people coming to talk to us. 104 00:04:11,310 --> 00:04:13,512 PRODUCER: A key point as well is that in 2023/24, 105 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,778 PRODUCER: more than two thirds of Childline counselling 106 00:04:17,779 --> 00:04:20,379 PRODUCER: sessions about blackmail and threats to share 107 00:04:20,380 --> 00:04:23,079 PRODUCER: sexual images were with boys. 108 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,319 PRODUCER: And I'm assuming, Danielle, that's what led to 109 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,309 PRODUCER: the Reach campaign. Is that correct? 110 00:04:27,310 --> 00:04:29,249 DANIELLE HARRIS: Yeah, so when we started looking at 111 00:04:29,250 --> 00:04:31,589 DANIELLE HARRIS: engaging boys, we know that as a service, 112 00:04:31,590 --> 00:04:34,449 DANIELLE HARRIS: we speak to less boys in our live 113 00:04:34,450 --> 00:04:36,789 DANIELLE HARRIS: contacts. So we wanted to look at the 114 00:04:36,790 --> 00:04:39,009 DANIELLE HARRIS: different topics that were issues for 115 00:04:39,010 --> 00:04:41,729 DANIELLE HARRIS: boys and what kept coming up in the data, 116 00:04:41,730 --> 00:04:43,569 DANIELLE HARRIS: internally and externally, was 117 00:04:43,570 --> 00:04:45,269 DANIELLE HARRIS: financially motivated extortion. 118 00:04:45,270 --> 00:04:47,849 DANIELLE HARRIS: So what we found in Childline is when 119 00:04:47,850 --> 00:04:50,409 DANIELLE HARRIS: boys do come to talk to a counsellor, 120 00:04:50,410 --> 00:04:52,989 DANIELLE HARRIS: they are talking about sexual online 121 00:04:52,990 --> 00:04:55,879 DANIELLE HARRIS: extortion and the financial motivated 122 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,879 DANIELLE HARRIS: side of it. And also we know from our 123 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,279 DANIELLE HARRIS: Report Remove data that significantly 124 00:05:01,280 --> 00:05:02,880 DANIELLE HARRIS: more boys are using this. 125 00:05:02,881 --> 00:05:06,439 DANIELLE HARRIS: Report Remove is our tool to get 126 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,819 DANIELLE HARRIS: nude images or videos removed off the 127 00:05:08,820 --> 00:05:10,359 DANIELLE HARRIS: internet. So that was quite interesting 128 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,419 DANIELLE HARRIS: and just reflected the issue that 129 00:05:13,420 --> 00:05:14,579 DANIELLE HARRIS: was here at present. 130 00:05:14,580 --> 00:05:17,579 PRODUCER: Yeah. Marie, I wondered from an NCA perspective, 131 00:05:17,580 --> 00:05:19,999 PRODUCER: why do you think the majority of known victims 132 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,999 PRODUCER: of the financially motivated sexual extortion 133 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:23,849 PRODUCER: are male? 134 00:05:23,850 --> 00:05:26,029 MARIE SMITH: Yeah, I think there's a number of hypotheses 135 00:05:26,030 --> 00:05:28,189 MARIE SMITH: around why this might be. 136 00:05:28,190 --> 00:05:30,869 MARIE SMITH: I guess from our perspective, just a couple 137 00:05:30,870 --> 00:05:33,389 MARIE SMITH: of top ones is that we're not just talking 138 00:05:33,390 --> 00:05:35,489 MARIE SMITH: about teen males. 139 00:05:35,490 --> 00:05:37,189 MARIE SMITH: So I guess we are talking about males more 140 00:05:37,190 --> 00:05:39,589 MARIE SMITH: broadly being victims. 141 00:05:39,590 --> 00:05:41,609 MARIE SMITH: The majority of reports that are coming 142 00:05:41,610 --> 00:05:43,669 MARIE SMITH: through are roughly up to the age of about 143 00:05:43,670 --> 00:05:45,869 MARIE SMITH: 30. So we definitely see reports from that 144 00:05:45,870 --> 00:05:47,169 MARIE SMITH: point onwards. 145 00:05:47,170 --> 00:05:49,009 MARIE SMITH: However, we're talking about the male 146 00:05:49,010 --> 00:05:52,619 MARIE SMITH: population being at risk of this threat. 147 00:05:52,620 --> 00:05:54,139 MARIE SMITH: Because we're the Child Protection 148 00:05:54,140 --> 00:05:56,039 MARIE SMITH: Department, you know, an arena within the 149 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:57,619 MARIE SMITH: National Crime Agency, we're looking at 150 00:05:57,620 --> 00:06:00,179 MARIE SMITH: under-18s specifically — so obviously what 151 00:06:00,180 --> 00:06:01,899 MARIE SMITH: we're talking about today. 152 00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:05,038 MARIE SMITH: These individuals are being targeted by 153 00:06:05,039 --> 00:06:07,679 MARIE SMITH: organised crime groups based abroad. 154 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,319 MARIE SMITH: So these are... The whole purpose is that 155 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:11,919 MARIE SMITH: financial element. 156 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:13,899 MARIE SMITH: Sadly, they would have tested that. 157 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:15,499 MARIE SMITH: So there would've been an element at some 158 00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:17,079 MARIE SMITH: point where they would look to see who is 159 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:18,839 MARIE SMITH: more likely to pay. 160 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:20,859 MARIE SMITH: So that would've being tested by these 161 00:06:20,860 --> 00:06:22,399 MARIE SMITH: organised crime groups. 162 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,379 MARIE SMITH: I guess part of that [that] we're seeing is 163 00:06:24,380 --> 00:06:27,819 MARIE SMITH: predominantly that the young female account 164 00:06:27,820 --> 00:06:29,539 MARIE SMITH: is being used. So when they're starting some 165 00:06:29,540 --> 00:06:32,539 MARIE SMITH: of those tactics, they're using online 166 00:06:32,540 --> 00:06:35,319 MARIE SMITH: profiles pretending to be young, attractive 167 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,459 MARIE SMITH: females to, kind of, lure those young 168 00:06:38,460 --> 00:06:41,099 MARIE SMITH: boys to their profiles. 169 00:06:41,100 --> 00:06:42,919 MARIE SMITH: Or when they are actively asking them to 170 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,779 MARIE SMITH: share nude images, they're potentially even 171 00:06:45,780 --> 00:06:48,019 MARIE SMITH: sharing images first, pretending it to be 172 00:06:48,020 --> 00:06:50,489 MARIE SMITH: that female, so that there's an element of, 173 00:06:50,490 --> 00:06:52,589 MARIE SMITH: you know, "I've swapped with you now, can you 174 00:06:52,590 --> 00:06:54,889 MARIE SMITH: swap with me?" It can seem a little bit more 175 00:06:54,890 --> 00:06:58,269 MARIE SMITH: fun. Obviously, any teenager around 176 00:06:58,270 --> 00:07:00,709 MARIE SMITH: those kind of ages, between the ages of that 177 00:07:00,710 --> 00:07:03,109 MARIE SMITH: 13 and 17 age bracket that we're currently 178 00:07:03,110 --> 00:07:05,021 MARIE SMITH: looking at, are exploring their sexuality, 179 00:07:06,270 --> 00:07:07,910 MARIE SMITH: their curiosity online, 180 00:07:09,190 --> 00:07:11,569 MARIE SMITH: relationships online, what that means to 181 00:07:11,570 --> 00:07:13,329 MARIE SMITH: them. So it's a really, kind of, particularly 182 00:07:13,330 --> 00:07:14,749 MARIE SMITH: vulnerable time. 183 00:07:14,750 --> 00:07:16,269 MARIE SMITH: I mean, there's a much broader discussion 184 00:07:16,270 --> 00:07:19,369 MARIE SMITH: around young males and social norms 185 00:07:19,370 --> 00:07:22,269 MARIE SMITH: and attitudes. Sometimes young boys can feel 186 00:07:22,270 --> 00:07:24,349 MARIE SMITH: maybe a bit forced into doing things 187 00:07:24,350 --> 00:07:26,609 MARIE SMITH: culturally that they might not want to do as 188 00:07:26,610 --> 00:07:29,269 MARIE SMITH: well, because it's what men do or, you know, 189 00:07:29,270 --> 00:07:31,829 MARIE SMITH: it's expected of them. Obviously that's not 190 00:07:31,830 --> 00:07:33,489 MARIE SMITH: necessarily the case, or it might be the case 191 00:07:33,490 --> 00:07:35,529 MARIE SMITH: in in their environment, so there's something 192 00:07:35,530 --> 00:07:38,469 MARIE SMITH: here about talking to those young boys around 193 00:07:38,470 --> 00:07:40,609 MARIE SMITH: what their values are online; what they would 194 00:07:40,610 --> 00:07:42,909 MARIE SMITH: like to see within a potential relationship; 195 00:07:42,910 --> 00:07:44,969 MARIE SMITH: or when things might move particularly 196 00:07:44,970 --> 00:07:47,529 MARIE SMITH: quickly online, how does that make them feel? 197 00:07:47,530 --> 00:07:49,629 MARIE SMITH: So it's stopping that moment and taking a 198 00:07:49,630 --> 00:07:51,229 MARIE SMITH: breather and thinking about what that might 199 00:07:51,230 --> 00:07:54,129 MARIE SMITH: look like. And I guess more broadly, but 200 00:07:54,130 --> 00:07:56,189 MARIE SMITH: Danielle will be really, really up on this, 201 00:07:56,190 --> 00:07:58,689 MARIE SMITH: is that boys are less likely to report, I 202 00:07:58,690 --> 00:08:01,829 MARIE SMITH: guess, any form of crime and particularly 203 00:08:01,830 --> 00:08:04,149 MARIE SMITH: sexual abuse more broadly. 204 00:08:04,150 --> 00:08:06,009 MARIE SMITH: So it's really picking up on all of those 205 00:08:06,010 --> 00:08:09,009 MARIE SMITH: vulnerabilities as some of those options. 206 00:08:10,130 --> 00:08:11,849 DANIELLE HARRIS: We do definitely see a lot of boys coming 207 00:08:11,850 --> 00:08:14,669 DANIELLE HARRIS: through talking about this and also, in 208 00:08:14,670 --> 00:08:16,729 DANIELLE HARRIS: the respect of things happening quite 209 00:08:16,730 --> 00:08:19,009 DANIELLE HARRIS: quickly online. 210 00:08:19,010 --> 00:08:22,309 DANIELLE HARRIS: I think some misconceptions around 211 00:08:22,310 --> 00:08:24,689 DANIELLE HARRIS: grooming is that it takes a long period 212 00:08:24,690 --> 00:08:26,889 DANIELLE HARRIS: of time and actually with this type of 213 00:08:26,890 --> 00:08:29,589 DANIELLE HARRIS: abuse it's happening within, I don't 214 00:08:29,590 --> 00:08:32,029 DANIELLE HARRIS: know, half an hour in some cases. 215 00:08:32,030 --> 00:08:34,808 DANIELLE HARRIS: I think the scary thing for me is the AI 216 00:08:34,809 --> 00:08:37,009 DANIELLE HARRIS: that's involved in terms of the fake 217 00:08:37,010 --> 00:08:39,908 DANIELLE HARRIS: profiles; how realistic these profiles 218 00:08:39,909 --> 00:08:42,709 DANIELLE HARRIS: are looking. And actually, what Marie was 219 00:08:42,710 --> 00:08:45,249 DANIELLE HARRIS: saying as well, we're seeing boys saying 220 00:08:45,250 --> 00:08:47,829 DANIELLE HARRIS: that they've shared an image first — the 221 00:08:47,830 --> 00:08:50,029 DANIELLE HARRIS: perpetrator has — and it looks real and 222 00:08:50,030 --> 00:08:53,269 DANIELLE HARRIS: it's almost a false sense of security 223 00:08:53,270 --> 00:08:55,929 DANIELLE HARRIS: in terms of building that relationship. 224 00:08:55,930 --> 00:08:57,709 DANIELLE HARRIS: I think the other thing that's quite interesting 225 00:08:57,710 --> 00:09:00,669 DANIELLE HARRIS: is reports of isolation are quite high, 226 00:09:00,670 --> 00:09:03,109 DANIELLE HARRIS: which also feeds into this, I would say, 227 00:09:03,110 --> 00:09:06,689 DANIELLE HARRIS: in terms of young boys trying to 228 00:09:06,690 --> 00:09:07,949 DANIELLE HARRIS: make connections. 229 00:09:07,950 --> 00:09:09,749 DANIELLE HARRIS: If they're not making those connections 230 00:09:09,750 --> 00:09:12,309 DANIELLE HARRIS: in real life, they're seeking them out 231 00:09:12,310 --> 00:09:14,809 DANIELLE HARRIS: online and that just adds additional 232 00:09:14,810 --> 00:09:16,959 DANIELLE HARRIS: vulnerabilities for young boys. 233 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,279 MARIE SMITH: Yeah. And just to come in there as well, we 234 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,459 MARIE SMITH: did some research recently in the buildup 235 00:09:22,460 --> 00:09:23,999 MARIE SMITH: to a campaign that we were putting out. 236 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,679 MARIE SMITH: So we commissioned some research with over 237 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:28,719 MARIE SMITH: 500 boys and we were 238 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,019 MARIE SMITH: seeing that 74% of them didn't understand 239 00:09:32,020 --> 00:09:34,199 MARIE SMITH: or didn't see a request for a nude image as a 240 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,679 MARIE SMITH: potential attempt, a sextortion attempt. 241 00:09:37,680 --> 00:09:41,379 MARIE SMITH: Again, 74% didn't fully understand what 242 00:09:41,380 --> 00:09:43,099 MARIE SMITH: sextortion more broadly was, what that would 243 00:09:43,100 --> 00:09:44,280 MARIE SMITH: look like, what it means for them. 244 00:09:45,939 --> 00:09:48,499 MARIE SMITH: 73% didn't even know where to go to report if 245 00:09:48,500 --> 00:09:50,839 MARIE SMITH: it was to happen to them as well. 246 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:52,839 MARIE SMITH: And I think what was strongly coming through 247 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:54,559 MARIE SMITH: the conversations that we were having is that 248 00:09:54,560 --> 00:09:56,559 MARIE SMITH: they didn't really see themselves as victims 249 00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:58,579 MARIE SMITH: as well. There was quite lots of 250 00:09:58,580 --> 00:10:01,339 MARIE SMITH: victim-blaming language that was being used 251 00:10:01,340 --> 00:10:03,219 MARIE SMITH: when talking about these kind of potential 252 00:10:03,220 --> 00:10:05,859 MARIE SMITH: scenarios that we were presenting to them as 253 00:10:05,860 --> 00:10:06,809 MARIE SMITH: well. 254 00:10:06,810 --> 00:10:08,749 PRODUCER: And Marie, can I ask you a bit more about the 255 00:10:08,750 --> 00:10:11,229 PRODUCER: mechanics of the financial extortion? 256 00:10:11,230 --> 00:10:13,449 PRODUCER: What does that process look like? 257 00:10:13,450 --> 00:10:16,609 PRODUCER: So say a young person has shared a 258 00:10:16,610 --> 00:10:20,369 PRODUCER: self-generated image, what happens next? 259 00:10:20,370 --> 00:10:23,349 MARIE SMITH: There's a number of ways in which this crime 260 00:10:23,350 --> 00:10:24,789 MARIE SMITH: is committed. And I think it needs to be 261 00:10:24,790 --> 00:10:26,367 MARIE SMITH: really clear to young boys: this is a crime — 262 00:10:26,368 --> 00:10:28,738 MARIE SMITH: these are criminals who are targeting them — 263 00:10:28,739 --> 00:10:30,367 MARIE SMITH: and particularly that they [the victims] are 264 00:10:30,368 --> 00:10:32,749 MARIE SMITH: not to blame. Therefore, so even if an image 265 00:10:32,750 --> 00:10:35,069 MARIE SMITH: has been shared by them first, they have been 266 00:10:35,070 --> 00:10:37,529 MARIE SMITH: targeted for this very purpose. 267 00:10:37,530 --> 00:10:39,209 MARIE SMITH: So I think that's a real barrier to reporting 268 00:10:39,210 --> 00:10:41,489 MARIE SMITH: as well, is the fact that "well, I've shared 269 00:10:41,490 --> 00:10:43,409 MARIE SMITH: an image and therefore have I broken the 270 00:10:43,410 --> 00:10:45,389 MARIE SMITH: law?" And that's often what they'll be told 271 00:10:45,390 --> 00:10:46,977 MARIE SMITH: by offenders online as well. 272 00:10:46,978 --> 00:10:49,449 MARIE SMITH: And why particularly, as the National Crime 273 00:10:49,450 --> 00:10:51,529 MARIE SMITH: Agency, we've got lots of materials out and 274 00:10:51,530 --> 00:10:53,249 MARIE SMITH: now a campaign out, because we want to be 275 00:10:53,250 --> 00:10:56,129 MARIE SMITH: telling young people we are law enforcement 276 00:10:56,130 --> 00:10:57,949 MARIE SMITH: and we are telling you, you're not to blame. 277 00:10:57,950 --> 00:10:59,989 MARIE SMITH: So if you're going to seek help from law 278 00:10:59,990 --> 00:11:02,169 MARIE SMITH: enforcement, that message is being strongly 279 00:11:02,170 --> 00:11:04,789 MARIE SMITH: put out across our community and to ensure 280 00:11:04,790 --> 00:11:07,349 MARIE SMITH: that's not a barrier to come forward. 281 00:11:07,350 --> 00:11:08,869 MARIE SMITH: Interestingly, what Danielle said there, we 282 00:11:08,870 --> 00:11:11,249 MARIE SMITH: are seeing an increase in the use of AI. 283 00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:12,929 MARIE SMITH: So that's definitely by, as Danielle said, 284 00:11:12,930 --> 00:11:15,889 MARIE SMITH: the offenders using AI to pretend to be, for 285 00:11:15,890 --> 00:11:17,579 MARIE SMITH: instance, a young female. 286 00:11:17,580 --> 00:11:20,619 MARIE SMITH: But also sadly, there's AI images being 287 00:11:20,620 --> 00:11:23,319 MARIE SMITH: generated where a young person hasn't shared 288 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:25,259 MARIE SMITH: an indecent image at all. 289 00:11:25,260 --> 00:11:26,559 MARIE SMITH: So what they [the perpetrator] are coming to them 290 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:29,119 MARIE SMITH: is to say, "I have this image of you that 291 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,099 MARIE SMITH: I've created. Obviously I know it's fake, 292 00:11:32,100 --> 00:11:33,819 MARIE SMITH: but the people I'm going to share it with 293 00:11:33,820 --> 00:11:36,719 MARIE SMITH: don't." So it has the same impact. 294 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,366 MARIE SMITH: "I'm going to share it your parents, I'm 295 00:11:38,367 --> 00:11:40,199 MARIE SMITH: going to share with your school, I'm going to 296 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,859 MARIE SMITH: send it amongst your classmates." Obviously 297 00:11:42,860 --> 00:11:44,065 MARIE SMITH: it's very easy to piece together your 298 00:11:45,470 --> 00:11:47,409 MARIE SMITH: communities online and those offline 299 00:11:47,410 --> 00:11:49,629 MARIE SMITH: communities and we do see some of these 300 00:11:49,630 --> 00:11:51,369 MARIE SMITH: threats being seen through. 301 00:11:51,370 --> 00:11:52,949 MARIE SMITH: So I guess previously we would have said 302 00:11:52,950 --> 00:11:55,509 MARIE SMITH: "it's a threat" and therefore it might not 303 00:11:55,510 --> 00:11:57,609 MARIE SMITH: happen; but actually we do you see cases 304 00:11:57,610 --> 00:11:59,169 MARIE SMITH: where those images are shared. 305 00:11:59,170 --> 00:12:01,569 MARIE SMITH: So that makes it even harder for young people 306 00:12:01,570 --> 00:12:03,669 MARIE SMITH: to seek support because they're potentially 307 00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:05,529 MARIE SMITH: seeing some of this happening. 308 00:12:05,530 --> 00:12:07,869 MARIE SMITH: It is very very serious now that we have 309 00:12:07,870 --> 00:12:10,689 MARIE SMITH: these individuals contacting teens more 310 00:12:10,690 --> 00:12:13,129 MARIE SMITH: broadly, adults as well, with images that 311 00:12:13,130 --> 00:12:15,569 MARIE SMITH: they have made, and as Danielle said, they're 312 00:12:15,570 --> 00:12:17,689 MARIE SMITH: becoming increasingly more realistic in their 313 00:12:17,690 --> 00:12:18,699 MARIE SMITH: approach. 314 00:12:18,700 --> 00:12:21,579 PRODUCER: Yeah, that really chimes with a quote I read in 315 00:12:21,580 --> 00:12:24,459 PRODUCER: the NSPCC's Helplines insight briefing on this 316 00:12:24,460 --> 00:12:27,439 PRODUCER: topic, which draws from contacts we've received 317 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,979 PRODUCER: to Childline, in which young people share their 318 00:12:29,980 --> 00:12:32,279 PRODUCER: experiences of online sexual extortion. 319 00:12:33,340 --> 00:12:35,339 PRODUCER: Everything's anonymised for the report, of 320 00:12:35,340 --> 00:12:38,319 PRODUCER: course, but one of the young people featured in 321 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,119 PRODUCER: that report talks about how someone had produced 322 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,579 PRODUCER: a fake image of them, and they were really 323 00:12:43,580 --> 00:12:45,919 PRODUCER: worried that, because it was so realistic, they 324 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:47,679 PRODUCER: wouldn't be able to convince people that it 325 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,799 PRODUCER: wasn't them. What do professionals need to 326 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,939 PRODUCER: know about the generative AI aspect 327 00:12:53,940 --> 00:12:56,109 PRODUCER: of online sexual extortion? 328 00:12:56,110 --> 00:12:58,009 MARIE SMITH: I think the really important thing for 329 00:12:58,010 --> 00:13:00,089 MARIE SMITH: professionals to know, which we recently ran 330 00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:02,829 MARIE SMITH: a study and nearly half of the professionals 331 00:13:02,830 --> 00:13:05,729 MARIE SMITH: that we surveyed weren't aware, is 332 00:13:05,730 --> 00:13:08,769 MARIE SMITH: that AI generated child abuse material is 333 00:13:08,770 --> 00:13:11,629 MARIE SMITH: illegal. And I think there is just that 334 00:13:11,630 --> 00:13:14,149 MARIE SMITH: concern [around] what to do with it. 335 00:13:14,150 --> 00:13:16,309 MARIE SMITH: And actually what we're saying is you deal 336 00:13:16,310 --> 00:13:18,949 MARIE SMITH: with those images in exactly the same way you 337 00:13:18,950 --> 00:13:20,449 MARIE SMITH: would any other. 338 00:13:20,450 --> 00:13:23,309 MARIE SMITH: So if there is an incident, you report it to 339 00:13:23,310 --> 00:13:25,609 MARIE SMITH: the police. You do not share that image. 340 00:13:25,610 --> 00:13:27,909 MARIE SMITH: There is guidance for professionals on what 341 00:13:27,910 --> 00:13:30,049 MARIE SMITH: to do and how to respond to instances of nude 342 00:13:30,050 --> 00:13:31,746 MARIE SMITH: image sharing that sits on [the UK government 343 00:13:31,747 --> 00:13:34,489 MARIE SMITH: website]. We've created that at the National 344 00:13:34,490 --> 00:13:36,469 MARIE SMITH: Crime Agency and worked with a number of 345 00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:38,669 MARIE SMITH: different organisations, including the NSPCC, 346 00:13:38,670 --> 00:13:41,389 MARIE SMITH: to ensure that it's the most up to date and 347 00:13:41,390 --> 00:13:43,889 MARIE SMITH: most relevant procedures in there. 348 00:13:43,890 --> 00:13:46,149 MARIE SMITH: So if you are an organisation working with 349 00:13:46,150 --> 00:13:48,309 MARIE SMITH: young people, there is a potential that you 350 00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:50,869 MARIE SMITH: would need to respond to this threat and it's 351 00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:53,829 MARIE SMITH: really imperative that you have that and use 352 00:13:53,830 --> 00:13:54,549 MARIE SMITH: it. 353 00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:55,864 DANIELLE HARRIS: I would just jump in there. 354 00:13:55,865 --> 00:13:57,969 DANIELLE HARRIS: In terms of Report Remove, it's exactly 355 00:13:57,970 --> 00:14:00,009 DANIELLE HARRIS: the same. So for young people that want 356 00:14:00,010 --> 00:14:02,389 DANIELLE HARRIS: to make a report to Report Remove, and 357 00:14:02,390 --> 00:14:04,869 DANIELLE HARRIS: that they know that this image is AI, it 358 00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:06,589 DANIELLE HARRIS: doesn't matter. It'll be treated exactly 359 00:14:06,590 --> 00:14:07,838 DANIELLE HARRIS: the same. 360 00:14:07,839 --> 00:14:10,799 PRODUCER: One thing that struck me earlier was the 361 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,279 PRODUCER: comment around how boys are potentially less 362 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,239 PRODUCER: likely to come forward if they are affected 363 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,119 PRODUCER: by online sexual extortion. 364 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,319 PRODUCER: Danielle, can you talk a bit more about the 365 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,179 PRODUCER: potential signs that a professional might be 366 00:14:23,180 --> 00:14:25,279 PRODUCER: able to notice in a child or young person who 367 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:26,929 PRODUCER: may be being extorted. 368 00:14:26,930 --> 00:14:29,169 DANIELLE HARRIS: I mean, it is very difficult because a 369 00:14:29,170 --> 00:14:31,649 DANIELLE HARRIS: lot of the signs can resemble other signs 370 00:14:31,650 --> 00:14:33,109 DANIELLE HARRIS: of different types of abuse. 371 00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:35,049 DANIELLE HARRIS: So I think it's really important just to 372 00:14:35,050 --> 00:14:37,769 DANIELLE HARRIS: say, staying curious and supportive 373 00:14:37,770 --> 00:14:39,569 DANIELLE HARRIS: through whatever you're seeing is really 374 00:14:39,570 --> 00:14:41,629 DANIELLE HARRIS: important. But there might be some 375 00:14:41,630 --> 00:14:43,149 DANIELLE HARRIS: changes in behaviour. 376 00:14:43,150 --> 00:14:45,749 DANIELLE HARRIS: So young people may appear more withdrawn 377 00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:48,989 DANIELLE HARRIS: or worried or more stressed about 378 00:14:48,990 --> 00:14:50,329 DANIELLE HARRIS: what's going on. 379 00:14:50,330 --> 00:14:52,389 DANIELLE HARRIS: They might be a bit more secretive or 380 00:14:52,390 --> 00:14:54,489 DANIELLE HARRIS: guarded about their devices. 381 00:14:54,490 --> 00:14:56,389 DANIELLE HARRIS: They might talk about new online 382 00:14:56,390 --> 00:14:59,149 DANIELLE HARRIS: friendships or connections that are 383 00:14:59,150 --> 00:15:00,729 DANIELLE HARRIS: formed really quickly. 384 00:15:00,730 --> 00:15:02,769 DANIELLE HARRIS: They might be spending a lot more time 385 00:15:02,770 --> 00:15:06,229 DANIELLE HARRIS: online or you might sense that 386 00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:08,109 DANIELLE HARRIS: certain apps or platforms that they're 387 00:15:08,110 --> 00:15:11,109 DANIELLE HARRIS: using are becoming a source of anxiety. 388 00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:13,849 DANIELLE HARRIS: The other one is they might be asking for 389 00:15:13,850 --> 00:15:16,629 DANIELLE HARRIS: money with little or no explanation of 390 00:15:16,630 --> 00:15:18,689 DANIELLE HARRIS: what they need it for or they might 391 00:15:18,690 --> 00:15:21,329 DANIELLE HARRIS: trying to obtain funds without asking 392 00:15:21,330 --> 00:15:24,129 DANIELLE HARRIS: permission for it. So, taking card 393 00:15:24,130 --> 00:15:27,049 DANIELLE HARRIS: details and selling high value items 394 00:15:27,050 --> 00:15:29,189 DANIELLE HARRIS: is another one. And I think what we're 395 00:15:29,190 --> 00:15:32,089 DANIELLE HARRIS: seeing more often as well is payments 396 00:15:32,090 --> 00:15:34,609 DANIELLE HARRIS: in forms of gift cards as well. 397 00:15:34,610 --> 00:15:36,249 DANIELLE HARRIS: So they're all different signs. 398 00:15:36,250 --> 00:15:39,009 DANIELLE HARRIS: But like I say, I think the main thing is 399 00:15:39,010 --> 00:15:42,469 DANIELLE HARRIS: staying curious when exploring this. 400 00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:43,869 MARIE SMITH: I think what Danielle said there was really 401 00:15:43,870 --> 00:15:46,809 MARIE SMITH: important; and the gift card payment aspect, 402 00:15:46,810 --> 00:15:48,669 MARIE SMITH: we definitely see that throughout the abuse 403 00:15:48,670 --> 00:15:50,749 MARIE SMITH: that's taking place. Obviously, lots of 404 00:15:50,750 --> 00:15:52,909 MARIE SMITH: people are more likely to be caught when 405 00:15:52,910 --> 00:15:55,849 MARIE SMITH: going through traditional banking systems, 406 00:15:55,850 --> 00:15:57,949 MARIE SMITH: so a way around that is to get young people 407 00:15:57,950 --> 00:16:00,269 MARIE SMITH: to buy gift cards and then to send them the 408 00:16:00,270 --> 00:16:02,149 MARIE SMITH: codes for those gift cards. 409 00:16:02,150 --> 00:16:04,149 MARIE SMITH: So they're still responding to a financial 410 00:16:04,150 --> 00:16:06,009 MARIE SMITH: demand in some respects, but it's just 411 00:16:06,010 --> 00:16:07,845 MARIE SMITH: different to I guess what people might think. 412 00:16:07,846 --> 00:16:10,799 MARIE SMITH: Yes, sometimes there is money. 413 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:12,459 MARIE SMITH: I guess the biggest message that we're trying 414 00:16:12,460 --> 00:16:14,139 MARIE SMITH: to put out again from the National Crime 415 00:16:14,140 --> 00:16:16,379 MARIE SMITH: Agency is do not pay. 416 00:16:16,380 --> 00:16:19,439 MARIE SMITH: We really understand that that is 417 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:21,142 MARIE SMITH: tricky because when you're in a situation, 418 00:16:21,143 --> 00:16:24,399 MARIE SMITH: when the demand's coming through, they're 419 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,659 MARIE SMITH: giving individuals very short amounts of time 420 00:16:26,660 --> 00:16:28,119 MARIE SMITH: — so there potentially might be a clock 421 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:29,919 MARIE SMITH: ticking and a number of seconds that they 422 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,579 MARIE SMITH: would need to respond, otherwise their images 423 00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:33,700 MARIE SMITH: are going viral, they would say. 424 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:36,596 MARIE SMITH: We need to be very clear that if they do pay 425 00:16:36,597 --> 00:16:38,639 MARIE SMITH: — and we understand why people would want to, 426 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,079 MARIE SMITH: because you want to make it stop. And they 427 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,679 MARIE SMITH: start with quite low sums, so £10, for 428 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,359 MARIE SMITH: instance. The likelihood is that most teens 429 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,759 MARIE SMITH: would have access to — probably not all, but 430 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,559 MARIE SMITH: some — that amount. 431 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,259 MARIE SMITH: But if you are to do that, then you're 432 00:16:50,260 --> 00:16:53,039 MARIE SMITH: showing that you can pay and it will not 433 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,379 MARIE SMITH: stop. So by doing that, will not make them 434 00:16:56,380 --> 00:16:59,079 MARIE SMITH: cut contact and not return. 435 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,379 MARIE SMITH: I think that's just the explanation behind 436 00:17:01,380 --> 00:17:03,649 MARIE SMITH: that do not pay message. 437 00:17:03,650 --> 00:17:06,088 MARIE SMITH: And as Danielle mentioned earlier, the 438 00:17:06,089 --> 00:17:08,848 MARIE SMITH: likelihood of this happening through the 439 00:17:08,849 --> 00:17:12,088 MARIE SMITH: night and in a very short time scale is 440 00:17:12,089 --> 00:17:13,629 MARIE SMITH: the most likely scenario. 441 00:17:13,630 --> 00:17:15,729 MARIE SMITH: So we roughly see, with the whole process 442 00:17:15,730 --> 00:17:17,629 MARIE SMITH: happening, as Danielle said, within half an 443 00:17:17,630 --> 00:17:20,309 MARIE SMITH: hour to an hour. So much, much quicker than 444 00:17:20,310 --> 00:17:23,249 MARIE SMITH: some of the other threats that we see. 445 00:17:23,250 --> 00:17:25,429 MARIE SMITH: It's really, really vital that we involve 446 00:17:25,430 --> 00:17:27,809 MARIE SMITH: parents and carers in the conversation 447 00:17:27,810 --> 00:17:30,749 MARIE SMITH: because they are likely, hopefully, to 448 00:17:30,750 --> 00:17:33,229 MARIE SMITH: be the people that are available to them at 449 00:17:33,230 --> 00:17:35,989 MARIE SMITH: that time. We want parents and carers to be 450 00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:38,229 MARIE SMITH: equipped that if their child was to come 451 00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:40,789 MARIE SMITH: knocking on their door at 3am or come down 452 00:17:40,790 --> 00:17:43,349 MARIE SMITH: the stairs as they're watching TV, would they 453 00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:44,829 MARIE SMITH: know what to do? 454 00:17:44,830 --> 00:17:47,049 MARIE SMITH: The likelihood is that probably not, and 455 00:17:47,050 --> 00:17:49,169 MARIE SMITH: that's through no fault of their own. 456 00:17:49,170 --> 00:17:50,809 MARIE SMITH: It's that they just haven't necessarily been 457 00:17:50,810 --> 00:17:53,049 MARIE SMITH: exposed to what this is and how to respond. 458 00:17:53,050 --> 00:17:55,769 MARIE SMITH: So, we've created parents and carers guidance 459 00:17:55,770 --> 00:17:57,829 MARIE SMITH: that we've launched alongside a teen campaign 460 00:17:57,830 --> 00:18:00,789 MARIE SMITH: last week, that very clearly explains how 461 00:18:00,790 --> 00:18:02,109 MARIE SMITH: to have the conversation. 462 00:18:02,110 --> 00:18:03,889 MARIE SMITH: Because again, that sounds simple, but really 463 00:18:03,890 --> 00:18:05,969 MARIE SMITH: what we're talking about here is crime 464 00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:08,889 MARIE SMITH: groups, organised crime groups based abroad, 465 00:18:08,890 --> 00:18:11,369 MARIE SMITH: online sex and relationships, sexual 466 00:18:11,370 --> 00:18:13,489 MARIE SMITH: curiosity. You know, there's so much involved 467 00:18:13,490 --> 00:18:16,229 MARIE SMITH: within this. So some advice on how to that 468 00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:18,109 MARIE SMITH: conversation. It's very easy to say to have 469 00:18:18,110 --> 00:18:20,609 MARIE SMITH: it, but what does that look like in practice? 470 00:18:20,610 --> 00:18:23,009 MARIE SMITH: And then those kind of really clear steps on 471 00:18:23,010 --> 00:18:25,869 MARIE SMITH: what to do, which has don't pay, stop all 472 00:18:25,870 --> 00:18:28,089 MARIE SMITH: contact, and to report. 473 00:18:28,090 --> 00:18:30,389 PRODUCER: On the topic of having those conversations with 474 00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:32,569 PRODUCER: children, Danielle, I wondered if you have any 475 00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:35,949 PRODUCER: advice either for professionals or for 476 00:18:35,950 --> 00:18:39,049 PRODUCER: parents and carers on some things to consider 477 00:18:39,050 --> 00:18:42,229 PRODUCER: when talking to children about 478 00:18:42,230 --> 00:18:44,019 PRODUCER: online sexual extortion. 479 00:18:44,020 --> 00:18:46,879 DANIELLE HARRIS: I think, like Marie said, for me the most 480 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,799 DANIELLE HARRIS: important thing parents and professionals 481 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,519 DANIELLE HARRIS: can do in the first instance is be aware 482 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,039 DANIELLE HARRIS: of the issue. 483 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,359 DANIELLE HARRIS: Understand how it can present and the 484 00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:57,719 DANIELLE HARRIS: impact that it can have on children. 485 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,899 DANIELLE HARRIS: Then by having open discussions with 486 00:18:59,900 --> 00:19:03,199 DANIELLE HARRIS: young people around these topics, it will 487 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:04,919 DANIELLE HARRIS: help prevent [the issue], but also make 488 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,099 DANIELLE HARRIS: it feel safer for young people to come 489 00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:09,099 DANIELLE HARRIS: and speak to parents and professional 490 00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:10,429 DANIELLE HARRIS: should it happen. 491 00:19:10,430 --> 00:19:12,289 DANIELLE HARRIS: I think one of the main barriers that we 492 00:19:12,290 --> 00:19:14,309 DANIELLE HARRIS: see for a lot of young people that stops 493 00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:17,369 DANIELLE HARRIS: them from speaking out is that fear of 494 00:19:17,370 --> 00:19:19,069 DANIELLE HARRIS: being blamed. 495 00:19:19,070 --> 00:19:21,509 DANIELLE HARRIS: We need to really avoid that 496 00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:24,269 DANIELLE HARRIS: victim-blaming language and behaviours to 497 00:19:24,270 --> 00:19:26,869 DANIELLE HARRIS: make sure that children feel safe and 498 00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:29,489 DANIELLE HARRIS: able to come to get that support. 499 00:19:29,490 --> 00:19:32,069 DANIELLE HARRIS: When we spoke to young people, when we 500 00:19:32,070 --> 00:19:34,429 DANIELLE HARRIS: were developing our campaign, they were 501 00:19:34,430 --> 00:19:36,529 DANIELLE HARRIS: talking about, you know, sharing nudes 502 00:19:36,530 --> 00:19:39,169 DANIELLE HARRIS: has become normalised within young 503 00:19:39,170 --> 00:19:41,729 DANIELLE HARRIS: people. And actually, it's really 504 00:19:41,730 --> 00:19:44,089 DANIELLE HARRIS: embarrassing for a young person to even 505 00:19:44,090 --> 00:19:46,509 DANIELLE HARRIS: approach an adult to talk about sharing a 506 00:19:46,510 --> 00:19:49,469 DANIELLE HARRIS: nude, let alone the added layer of 507 00:19:49,470 --> 00:19:51,909 DANIELLE HARRIS: extortion and blackmail that comes into 508 00:19:51,910 --> 00:19:53,670 DANIELLE HARRIS: that as well. So, I think it's really 509 00:19:53,671 --> 00:19:56,809 DANIELLE HARRIS: having that understanding of the impact 510 00:19:56,810 --> 00:19:59,209 DANIELLE HARRIS: on the child and how difficult it is to 511 00:19:59,210 --> 00:20:01,549 DANIELLE HARRIS: talk to an adult about what's going on. 512 00:20:01,550 --> 00:20:03,629 DANIELLE HARRIS: Really having that empathetic and 513 00:20:03,630 --> 00:20:06,359 DANIELLE HARRIS: supportive approach, being informed on 514 00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:08,179 DANIELLE HARRIS: the actions that Marie has just talked 515 00:20:08,180 --> 00:20:10,299 DANIELLE HARRIS: about and then being able to signpost 516 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:12,779 DANIELLE HARRIS: them into support services, like 517 00:20:12,780 --> 00:20:15,799 DANIELLE HARRIS: Childline, so that we can support them 518 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,859 DANIELLE HARRIS: at their pace, and also Report Remove 519 00:20:18,860 --> 00:20:21,539 DANIELLE HARRIS: in terms of practical steps to get nude 520 00:20:21,540 --> 00:20:23,539 DANIELLE HARRIS: images and videos removed off the 521 00:20:23,540 --> 00:20:24,540 DANIELLE HARRIS: internet. 522 00:20:25,069 --> 00:20:26,769 PRODUCER: And you mentioned the Behind the Screen 523 00:20:26,770 --> 00:20:28,569 PRODUCER: Childline campaign earlier. 524 00:20:28,570 --> 00:20:30,229 PRODUCER: Please can you tell us a bit more about the 525 00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:32,649 PRODUCER: resources that form part of that campaign? 526 00:20:32,650 --> 00:20:35,009 DANIELLE HARRIS: Our Behind the Screen campaign has a 527 00:20:35,010 --> 00:20:36,269 DANIELLE HARRIS: number of resources. 528 00:20:36,270 --> 00:20:37,969 DANIELLE HARRIS: We have a professionals pack. 529 00:20:37,970 --> 00:20:40,329 DANIELLE HARRIS: That professional pack looks at sexually 530 00:20:40,330 --> 00:20:42,889 DANIELLE HARRIS: coerced extortion, the signs, what to 531 00:20:42,890 --> 00:20:44,909 DANIELLE HARRIS: look out for, how to support young 532 00:20:44,910 --> 00:20:47,829 DANIELLE HARRIS: people. There's a range of information on 533 00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:49,969 DANIELLE HARRIS: Childline services in terms of our 534 00:20:49,970 --> 00:20:52,509 DANIELLE HARRIS: confidentiality policy and what makes us 535 00:20:52,510 --> 00:20:55,669 DANIELLE HARRIS: unique, as well as our online resources. 536 00:20:55,670 --> 00:20:58,889 DANIELLE HARRIS: We've got a new Childline webpage 537 00:20:58,890 --> 00:21:01,689 DANIELLE HARRIS: which is called 'trusting others online', 538 00:21:01,690 --> 00:21:03,409 DANIELLE HARRIS: which was developed as part of this 539 00:21:03,410 --> 00:21:06,189 DANIELLE HARRIS: campaign, which can be signposted as well 540 00:21:06,190 --> 00:21:08,129 DANIELLE HARRIS: to children and young people. 541 00:21:08,130 --> 00:21:11,189 DANIELLE HARRIS: We also have a video that was created, a 542 00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:14,089 DANIELLE HARRIS: playful way of highlighting and 543 00:21:14,090 --> 00:21:17,149 DANIELLE HARRIS: bringing awareness to fake profiles. 544 00:21:18,590 --> 00:21:21,749 DANIELLE HARRIS: It's using male influencers aged — 545 00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:23,649 DANIELLE HARRIS: I think they were about 19, so they're in 546 00:21:23,650 --> 00:21:27,049 DANIELLE HARRIS: the age group — talking about how to 547 00:21:27,050 --> 00:21:29,479 DANIELLE HARRIS: spot fake profiles online. 548 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,519 PRODUCER: Super. So yeah, lots of resources for 549 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,159 PRODUCER: professionals out there and we will put links to 550 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,299 PRODUCER: all of these in the podcast shownotes. 551 00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:38,219 PRODUCER: Marie, I know that NCA has also done lots of 552 00:21:38,220 --> 00:21:40,919 PRODUCER: work recently to help professionals understand 553 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,379 PRODUCER: and respond to online sexual extortion. 554 00:21:43,380 --> 00:21:45,379 PRODUCER: Can you tell us more about those resources? 555 00:21:45,380 --> 00:21:47,239 MARIE SMITH: Yeah, I think obviously, there's a lot of 556 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,299 MARIE SMITH: resources out there, which is great. 557 00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:50,819 MARIE SMITH: People will be pleased to know that they 558 00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:52,939 MARIE SMITH: complement each other. So when Danielle talks 559 00:21:52,940 --> 00:21:55,959 MARIE SMITH: about Report Remove, that's a service that we 560 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,579 MARIE SMITH: highly reference throughout our resources as 561 00:21:58,580 --> 00:22:00,799 MARIE SMITH: well. And I guess, just to be clear, we're 562 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:02,879 MARIE SMITH: ensuring that we are putting all of these 563 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:04,599 MARIE SMITH: online campaigns and things that we're doing 564 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,159 MARIE SMITH: in slightly different places for young people 565 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,979 MARIE SMITH: to see and using different approaches as 566 00:22:08,980 --> 00:22:11,359 MARIE SMITH: well. Because as we know, sometimes you need 567 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:13,919 MARIE SMITH: to see things a number of times to engage 568 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:15,476 MARIE SMITH: with that in a number of different ways. 569 00:22:15,477 --> 00:22:17,739 MARIE SMITH: We're all very different, we look at things 570 00:22:17,740 --> 00:22:20,039 MARIE SMITH: differently, so it's great that there's so 571 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,319 MARIE SMITH: much out there. 572 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,739 MARIE SMITH: Last year we launched an alert to schools, 573 00:22:23,740 --> 00:22:25,399 MARIE SMITH: the first of its kind. 574 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,919 MARIE SMITH: That reached an average of 320,000 575 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,299 MARIE SMITH: to 360,000 professionals, we believe. 576 00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:33,139 MARIE SMITH: That's roughly two thirds of all teaching 577 00:22:33,140 --> 00:22:35,739 MARIE SMITH: staff. If you've not seen that, then 578 00:22:35,740 --> 00:22:37,539 MARIE SMITH: definitely give that a go and there's a 579 00:22:37,540 --> 00:22:40,019 MARIE SMITH: parents and carer's letter that's in there 580 00:22:40,020 --> 00:22:42,719 MARIE SMITH: that you can send out as well. 581 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,319 MARIE SMITH: Within there, there's a link to resources 582 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,079 MARIE SMITH: that can be used within the classroom, but we 583 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,459 MARIE SMITH: are also developing a new online blackmail 584 00:22:49,460 --> 00:22:51,799 MARIE SMITH: resource that we've currently filmed. 585 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,219 MARIE SMITH: We're just piloting it and that'll be for 586 00:22:53,220 --> 00:22:55,459 MARIE SMITH: launch in September. 587 00:22:55,460 --> 00:22:56,999 MARIE SMITH: The campaign that we have running at the 588 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,479 MARIE SMITH: moment is predominantly on Snap and Instagram 589 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,379 MARIE SMITH: directly to young teens, male 590 00:23:03,380 --> 00:23:06,349 MARIE SMITH: teens. And that resource is 591 00:23:06,350 --> 00:23:07,789 MARIE SMITH: — the work that we did with the commissioned 592 00:23:07,790 --> 00:23:09,609 MARIE SMITH: research that I mentioned, and also the 593 00:23:09,610 --> 00:23:13,049 MARIE SMITH: piloting of that — is just really clear, 594 00:23:13,050 --> 00:23:15,449 MARIE SMITH: simple messaging from law enforcement and 595 00:23:15,450 --> 00:23:17,489 MARIE SMITH: particularly around that you are not to blame 596 00:23:17,490 --> 00:23:19,809 MARIE SMITH: and to seek help message. 597 00:23:19,810 --> 00:23:21,929 PRODUCER: I think that's a really good place to conclude 598 00:23:21,930 --> 00:23:23,729 PRODUCER: our discussion for today. 599 00:23:23,730 --> 00:23:26,189 PRODUCER: You can find links to all the resources we've 600 00:23:26,190 --> 00:23:28,509 PRODUCER: discussed in this episode as well as further 601 00:23:28,510 --> 00:23:31,489 PRODUCER: information about online sexual extortion in 602 00:23:31,490 --> 00:23:33,349 PRODUCER: the podcast shownotes. 603 00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:35,529 PRODUCER: You'll also find a link to the free Report 604 00:23:35,530 --> 00:23:38,369 PRODUCER: Remove tool, which allows young people under 18 605 00:23:38,370 --> 00:23:41,549 PRODUCER: in the UK to confidentially report sexual images 606 00:23:41,550 --> 00:23:44,449 PRODUCER: and videos of themselves in effort to have them 607 00:23:44,450 --> 00:23:46,439 PRODUCER: removed from the internet. 608 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,539 PRODUCER: All that's left for me to do is to say thank you 609 00:23:48,540 --> 00:23:50,559 PRODUCER: to Marie and Danielle for joining me on the 610 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:51,739 PRODUCER: podcast today. 611 00:23:51,740 --> 00:23:52,619 DANIELLE HARRIS: Thank you. 612 00:23:52,620 --> 00:23:53,709 MARIE SMITH: Thank you very much. 613 00:23:53,710 --> 00:23:55,329 PRODUCER: And thank you everyone for listening. 614 00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:01,759 INTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC learning 615 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,179 INTRO: Podcast. 616 00:24:03,180 --> 00:24:05,659 INTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content 617 00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:08,439 INTRO: was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and 618 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:09,575 INTRO: child protection is ever-changing. 619 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,799 INTRO: So if you're looking for the most current 620 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,179 INTRO: safeguarding and child protection training 621 00:24:15,180 --> 00:24:18,099 INTRO: information or resources, please 622 00:24:18,100 --> 00:24:20,739 INTRO: visit our website for professionals at 623 00:24:20,740 --> 00:24:23,360 INTRO: nspcc.org.uk/learning.