(00:00:00):
By the time I met him, I knew enough to avoid obvious bad boys.

(00:00:04):
He showed up differently from all of them, as a spiritual, sensitive, troubled soul.

(00:00:08):
He was vulnerable, talking openly about his childhood traumas.

(00:00:12):
He would cry in front of me.

(00:00:14):
He listened to me intently and eventually got me to talk about my own traumas.

(00:00:19):
Almost from the beginning,

(00:00:20):
he would frequently ghost me and then hoover me back like one might take a toy off

(00:00:24):
of a shelf.

(00:00:25):
Turns out this was the case because he was cheating on his then girlfriend with

(00:00:28):
several women,

(00:00:29):
including me.

(00:00:31):
During our second and last night together,

(00:00:33):
while having sex with me,

(00:00:35):
he used the details I had told him about my own rape trauma against me,

(00:00:39):
trying to replay it in order to cause a rape flashback.

(00:00:42):
I managed to fight him off.

(00:00:44):
He comforted me afterwards, which I believe further intensified my trauma bond.

(00:00:48):
I was beyond disturbed,

(00:00:49):
and for a long time it didn't compute what he had tried to do,

(00:00:52):
the sheer sadism of it.

(00:00:55):
Eventually,

(00:00:55):
I came to the conclusion that this carefully crafted facade of vulnerability and

(00:00:59):
his own stories of childhood sexual assault were tools to manipulate,

(00:01:03):
control,

(00:01:03):
and abuse women by getting them to share their own stories of abuse,

(00:01:07):
which he could then weaponize against them.

(00:01:10):
I strongly suspect these stories make him horny as well.

(00:01:14):
By triggering and then comforting me,

(00:01:16):
he can abuse me and live out his sadism and misogyny,

(00:01:20):
but also appear as a sensitive,

(00:01:22):
caring,

(00:01:22):
spiritually enlightened bohemian artist who allegedly worships the divine feminine.

(00:01:28):
Later,

(00:01:28):
I learned that two of his ex-girlfriends had come out of their respective

(00:01:31):
relationships with him massively traumatized by emotional abuse,

(00:01:35):
cheating,

(00:01:35):
controlling behaviors,

(00:01:37):
and rape.

(00:01:40):
Hi, I'm Zahn Valines, and this is the Liberating Motherhood podcast.

(00:01:46):
Today,

(00:01:46):
we are talking about the dangers of dating men and what,

(00:01:49):
if anything,

(00:01:50):
women can do to mitigate those dangers.

(00:01:52):
I chose this vignette because I think it shows how easily men weaponize our vulnerabilities.

(00:01:58):
If we have been in an abusive relationship,

(00:02:00):
we may leave knowing to avoid the red flags that that particular relationship

(00:02:04):
displayed,

(00:02:05):
only to not recognize different red flags until we are trapped in a different

(00:02:08):
abusive relationship.

(00:02:10):
Patriarchy works overtime to cultivate this tendency.

(00:02:14):
From birth,

(00:02:14):
we are indoctrinated to give men the benefit of the doubt,

(00:02:17):
to second-guess ourselves,

(00:02:18):
and to treat relationships with men as beautiful and wonderful,

(00:02:22):
rather than recognizing that they are the most dangerous thing we can do.

(00:02:26):
My guest today is on a mission to help women quickly root out the large volume of

(00:02:30):
assholes when dating.

(00:02:32):
Jenny Young is the creator of the Burn Haystack Dating Method.

(00:02:35):
Hi, Jenny.

(00:02:36):
Hi, Zahn.

(00:02:37):
Thanks for having me on.

(00:02:38):
Jenny is awesome.

(00:02:39):
She is by far my most requested podcast guest.

(00:02:44):
So if you're one of the many people who has requested her, I have honored your wishes.

(00:02:48):
And if you somehow don't know who she is, you will soon know and love her.

(00:02:53):
So I'm going to tell you guys a little bit about her.

(00:02:56):
Jenny Young is a professor of writing and rhetoric at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay.

(00:03:01):
specializing in applied rhetoric, humor, and feminism.

(00:03:05):
She holds a PhD in rhetoric and discourse studies from Case Western Reserve

(00:03:09):
University and a satire writing certificate from Second City Chicago.

(00:03:14):
Her work has been published in McSweeney's, Ms.

(00:03:16):
Magazine,

(00:03:17):
HuffPost,

(00:03:18):
and others,

(00:03:18):
and covered by major media outlets such as the New York Times,

(00:03:22):
Rolling Stone,

(00:03:22):
Washington Post,

(00:03:24):
Newsweek,

(00:03:24):
and Wall Street Journal.

(00:03:26):
So that's the bio that Jenny gave me.

(00:03:28):
And like most spectacular women, she undersells herself.

(00:03:31):
So I'm just going to add that Jenny is a bona fide feminist icon,

(00:03:35):
a talented scholar,

(00:03:36):
and is truly changing the world.

(00:03:38):
She works to educate women about the rhetorical patterns that signal underlying

(00:03:42):
misogyny in emails,

(00:03:43):
texts,

(00:03:44):
dating profiles,

(00:03:45):
and any other place where you might have the misfortune of encountering men.

(00:03:48):
So everywhere.

(00:03:50):
She is also, as I said, my most requested podcast guest.

(00:03:54):
You people love her.

(00:03:55):
And now she is here.

(00:03:57):
So yay.

(00:03:59):
Jenny,

(00:03:59):
as I told you when we were talking before the podcast,

(00:04:01):
I honestly don't even remember how I first encountered your work.

(00:04:06):
It's like you've just been in my brain for all of this time.

(00:04:10):
But I want to get started by...

(00:04:13):
Maybe talking a little bit about your backstory.

(00:04:16):
And so you started dating after a divorce.

(00:04:20):
Right.

(00:04:20):
And so I have not done online dating in a very long time.

(00:04:25):
My husband and I have been together for almost two decades and we met on Match.com.

(00:04:29):
Okay, back when it was still just a website, right?

(00:04:32):
Yeah, no apps.

(00:04:34):
Yeah, years before either of us had a smartphone, you know, there was like instant messaging.

(00:04:40):
But this dating hellscape that people who are dating now experience,

(00:04:46):
it is very unfamiliar to me.

(00:04:48):
I mean, I know that it's a nightmare.

(00:04:49):
But tell me a little bit about what you expected and then what you were met with

(00:04:55):
when you got on those terrible,

(00:04:57):
terrible apps.

(00:04:59):
Yeah.

(00:04:59):
So, I mean, I had sort of, you know, half paid attention to what was going on with dating.

(00:05:08):
Like enough that I'd heard the sort of cliched complaints that everybody hears, right?

(00:05:14):
The fish pictures and the bathroom mirror selfies and

(00:05:20):
the illiterate men on the dating apps.

(00:05:23):
And it wasn't that I didn't believe that.

(00:05:27):
It was that I did not expect it to account for the vast majority of men I would

(00:05:33):
encounter on the dating apps.

(00:05:35):
I think what was so shocking to me wasn't that there was a few outlier weirdos,

(00:05:41):
which is definitely true.

(00:05:44):
I think what was shocking and really demoralizing was

(00:05:49):
was to confront the recognition that the vast,

(00:05:54):
vast majority of single men in my age group were objectively undateable.

(00:06:01):
Not just undateable for me or didn't meet my little list of criteria,

(00:06:08):
but objectively undateable human beings.

(00:06:12):
That was the horrifying realization for me.

(00:06:18):
Yeah.

(00:06:19):
I mean,

(00:06:19):
that's,

(00:06:20):
you know,

(00:06:21):
that's also kind of the realization that I've slowly dawned on doing this work.

(00:06:26):
I think that when I started dating my husband,

(00:06:29):
my perception is that maybe like 70% of men were fundamentally undateable and

(00:06:34):
dangerous and all of that.

(00:06:36):
But like, you know, 30%, like,

(00:06:38):
That's a good number.

(00:06:39):
Like that means a lot of people can be partnered.

(00:06:43):
But as I have seen my friends get into marriages,

(00:06:47):
get into dating,

(00:06:48):
have relationships with men,

(00:06:50):
I am struggling to think of a single relationship that I think is not abusive.

(00:06:55):
And so I've really arrived at it's like less than 1%.

(00:06:58):
And it's just awful.

(00:07:01):
It is awful.

(00:07:03):
And I think it's worth noting that, and you know this,

(00:07:09):
from your work, but I think we all know this.

(00:07:12):
Women will tolerate a lot.

(00:07:14):
Like women will stay with really bad men for a long time,

(00:07:18):
if not forever,

(00:07:19):
for a variety of reasons.

(00:07:22):
Okay, so the men on the apps, these are the guys that no women will stay with, right?

(00:07:28):
Like they are by definition, the worst of the worst.

(00:07:31):
Now, obviously there are widowers out there.

(00:07:34):
There are guys who,

(00:07:36):
you know,

(00:07:36):
just haven't found the right person or they really did try really hard with their

(00:07:40):
marriages and it just didn't work out or their wives fell in love with someone

(00:07:44):
else.

(00:07:44):
Like there are those cases, but the majority, like these are the guys that know women, right?

(00:07:50):
will tolerate.

(00:07:51):
And that's why they're out there.

(00:07:52):
So it makes sense that they'd be so horrible because the good ones tend to get and stay married.

(00:07:59):
That's,

(00:07:59):
you know,

(00:07:59):
that's a really good point that I've,

(00:08:01):
I've not heard anybody else articulate so succinctly that especially when you're

(00:08:06):
talking about in midlife dating,

(00:08:08):
the men who are dating are like worse than other men and other men are really bad.

(00:08:14):
So

(00:08:16):
Yeah,

(00:08:16):
I think I think that's such an important thing for women to consider,

(00:08:20):
even when they're going into dating,

(00:08:22):
that you you're not just fishing in like a polluted sea.

(00:08:26):
You're you're fishing in like nuclear fallout.

(00:08:29):
Yes, exactly.

(00:08:30):
All right.

(00:08:32):
So you got in these apps and that's terrible.

(00:08:37):
I'm sorry.

(00:08:37):
Yeah.

(00:08:38):
Um, so at some point you started developing this burn haystack method.

(00:08:45):
How did, how did that happen?

(00:08:47):
So I,

(00:08:49):
initially I did what most women do,

(00:08:52):
I think,

(00:08:53):
which is that I internalized what was going on on the apps.

(00:08:57):
And I thought, um,

(00:08:58):
like there must be something wrong with me or there's something I don't understand

(00:09:03):
here or clearly the world has changed in fundamental ways that I've just not yet

(00:09:10):
caught up with.

(00:09:11):
And,

(00:09:11):
you know,

(00:09:12):
on top of just this sort of like,

(00:09:16):
you know,

(00:09:16):
looking at the grid of options and I think I tried match first.

(00:09:23):
It was honestly like looking at,

(00:09:26):
like the mugshot grid if you like research sex offenders, right?

(00:09:30):
Like that's what it looked like.

(00:09:32):
And these are these guys dating app profiles.

(00:09:35):
And so that was one realization.

(00:09:37):
But then the few that I did talk to, the conversations were strange.

(00:09:42):
And I don't even mean like there were some that were, yeah, just, you know, bad shit, crazy.

(00:09:47):
I'm not even talking about those.

(00:09:49):
I'm talking about the quote unquote normal conversations, which were also not normal.

(00:09:55):
And so I started thinking, I must not understand something about basic communication.

(00:10:01):
But then I took that one step further and I thought,

(00:10:03):
well,

(00:10:04):
I mean,

(00:10:05):
number one,

(00:10:05):
I have a PhD in like a communication oriented discipline.

(00:10:10):
But also I go through my entire life interacting with, I mean, because I'm a

(00:10:19):
And I'm not having problems in other domains, right?

(00:10:23):
Like I seem to be able to communicate just fine.

(00:10:25):
So maybe it's like, I should at least entertain the possibility that it might not just be me.

(00:10:30):
And that was when I started to get really academic about it and decide that there

(00:10:36):
had to be a code that I could crack.

(00:10:40):
And then, and it seems bananas to me that I didn't put this together sooner, but

(00:10:46):
My academic specialty is in critical discourse analysis.

(00:10:50):
Like I'd already written a graduate level textbook in critical discourse analysis

(00:10:55):
before it occurred to me that this could be like the secret weapon to decode the

(00:11:01):
dating apps.

(00:11:03):
And it was just, I don't know, like an epiphany.

(00:11:05):
And then I realized,

(00:11:06):
yeah,

(00:11:06):
like,

(00:11:07):
like I should,

(00:11:08):
there's not even an excuse for me not to do this.

(00:11:11):
Like I'm morally obligated to do this,

(00:11:13):
even if not for myself,

(00:11:15):
like just as a service to humanity.

(00:11:18):
But I also thought,

(00:11:20):
If I do have to go through this because I want to find a partner,

(00:11:23):
number one,

(00:11:24):
it just makes good sense to share it.

(00:11:27):
That ties in with my personal value system.

(00:11:30):
I've been very invested in public scholarship and in free access to information way

(00:11:36):
before this started,

(00:11:37):
but also just very selfishly,

(00:11:39):
I'm like,

(00:11:40):
I need a community.

(00:11:41):
I need a

(00:11:43):
I need a girl team of people to do this with me.

(00:11:47):
And that's when I started very purposefully bringing my academic discipline to the

(00:11:52):
endeavor of trying to find a partner.

(00:11:54):
I love that.

(00:11:56):
I also love the community oriented approach, but like,

(00:12:01):
One of the things that stands out to me is that you're a literal expert in

(00:12:07):
understanding human communication.

(00:12:09):
You teach students.

(00:12:11):
This is what you do all day, every day.

(00:12:14):
And when it started going poorly, you just assumed that the problem was your bad communication.

(00:12:20):
Right?

(00:12:20):
I did.

(00:12:21):
That's patriarchy.

(00:12:23):
Well, this is the message that we give to women.

(00:12:26):
Women are exceptionally good communicators.

(00:12:29):
We devote our lives to learning how to communicate.

(00:12:31):
Patriarchy demands that we experiment with all these different ways of communicating.

(00:12:37):
And yet when things go wrong in our relationships, they tell us, oh, just communicate better.

(00:12:41):
It's never demand better.

(00:12:43):
So I think that this could happen to even you, that you would end up blaming yourself

(00:12:48):
really speaks to like how intense that indoctrination is.

(00:12:52):
I also want to ask you your opinion on something.

(00:12:56):
So my theory on the apps,

(00:12:57):
the thing that I see in articles about dating apps all the time is that the dating

(00:13:03):
apps themselves have somehow changed men or that something about the dating apps is

(00:13:08):
changing the way that we date or the dating apocalypse or whatever.

(00:13:12):
My perspective is that the dating apps are putting on display what was already there.

(00:13:17):
What do you think?

(00:13:20):
I 100% agree.

(00:13:21):
I do think dating apps and dating app culture...

(00:13:25):
have exacerbated some kind of universal tensions that reside between the genders.

(00:13:33):
But that's a systemic effect.

(00:13:36):
The behavior you're seeing from individual men on the dating apps is their own

(00:13:42):
individual behavior,

(00:13:44):
that the dating apps are providing a platform and a mechanism to weaponize.

(00:13:51):
Yeah.

(00:13:52):
I mean, I remember even back...

(00:13:54):
When I was dating in,

(00:13:55):
like,

(00:13:57):
2007,

(00:13:57):
back when,

(00:13:58):
like,

(00:13:58):
OKCupid was a big thing,

(00:14:00):
I would have these conversations with men who seemed normal,

(00:14:05):
but I was always – you know,

(00:14:08):
my approach was always,

(00:14:09):
like,

(00:14:09):
look for what's wrong with them because there was always something.

(00:14:12):
And so I'd have this – I'd have a decent conversation with a normal presenting man,

(00:14:17):
and then he would,

(00:14:18):
like,

(00:14:18):
email me an insult.

(00:14:19):
Yes.

(00:14:20):
Yeah.

(00:14:22):
And I was so like befuddled by this that I actually called my ex-boyfriend at the

(00:14:31):
time who I had been with for years and years.

(00:14:34):
And I asked him, you know, has something dramatically changed about my appearance?

(00:14:40):
Are my glasses bad?

(00:14:42):
What is wrong?

(00:14:43):
And he seemed very confused by this.

(00:14:47):
And he was like, wait, wait.

(00:14:48):
are you trying to date?

(00:14:51):
And I was like, yeah, I am.

(00:14:53):
And he was like, oh, they've been watching pickup artists.

(00:14:55):
They're nagging you.

(00:14:57):
And I didn't even know this was a thing.

(00:15:00):
And it just kind of shows how if you go into this with any naivete at all,

(00:15:06):
it feels like it's you because they're just using whatever weird ass misogynistic

(00:15:12):
techniques are popular at the moment.

(00:15:14):
Back then it was those creepy pickup artists and now it's

(00:15:18):
I don't know, whatever this is.

(00:15:21):
Yeah.

(00:15:21):
They're now kind of,

(00:15:24):
so back in those days,

(00:15:25):
these pickup artist communities were somewhat underground and they were fairly well

(00:15:31):
organized.

(00:15:31):
Like they had, I don't know if you've read Neil Strauss's.

(00:15:35):
Yes.

(00:15:36):
Yes.

(00:15:37):
Yeah.

(00:15:37):
So I mean, they had like PhDs in neuro-linguistic programming coming into like

(00:15:42):
teach them how to manipulate women.

(00:15:44):
And that's, you know, real bad.

(00:15:47):
Like that's super nefarious.

(00:15:49):
But it was, I think at that point, a small percentage of men

(00:15:54):
I think what we're looking,

(00:15:56):
and there's a lot of,

(00:15:57):
I don't want to use the term moral panic,

(00:16:00):
but maybe something approaching moral panic that there's so many men out there

(00:16:05):
doing this.

(00:16:05):
They're learning neuro-linguistic programming on the down low.

(00:16:09):
They're not.

(00:16:10):
They won't even read a woman's profile.

(00:16:12):
They're not studying neuro-linguistic programming.

(00:16:15):
Now, I mean, they're a very, very slim minority of them, maybe.

(00:16:19):
I think what's happening now is

(00:16:21):
you know,

(00:16:21):
they're radicalizing each other in,

(00:16:23):
in self chat rooms,

(00:16:25):
or they're listening to,

(00:16:26):
you know,

(00:16:27):
Jordan B.

(00:16:27):
Peterson and Joe Rogan and,

(00:16:30):
and even,

(00:16:30):
you know,

(00:16:31):
some of the quote unquote enlightened male influencers,

(00:16:38):
maybe Andrew Huberman.

(00:16:42):
Like if you feel, if you listen very closely to what some of these men are saying, you're,

(00:16:48):
The misogyny is laced through even that kind of discourse.

(00:16:54):
So it's like these men are swimming in a sea of,

(00:16:57):
you know,

(00:16:58):
sometimes overt and sometimes implied toxic misogyny.

(00:17:05):
And I don't even think they realize what they're absorbing in a lot of cases,

(00:17:10):
but it's just growing and growing.

(00:17:13):
until it's coming out everywhere.

(00:17:15):
Does that make sense?

(00:17:16):
It absolutely does.

(00:17:17):
And it's completely consistent with what I think,

(00:17:19):
because I hear a lot of the same moral panic stuff of,

(00:17:22):
you know,

(00:17:23):
they're learning these skills and they're these master manipulators and they're all

(00:17:27):
sociopaths.

(00:17:28):
And I just, I mean, I'm just like, have you met a man?

(00:17:33):
Because I just don't believe that men are so smart and so cunning and so patient

(00:17:40):
and have such good impulse control.

(00:17:43):
They can play these long cons.

(00:17:45):
I mean, some, yes, like there are real sociopaths.

(00:17:49):
You know, I don't want to diminish that that does happen to people.

(00:17:53):
But this idea that we're just sitting ducks and we can't outsmart them is,

(00:17:58):
I think,

(00:17:59):
really insulting to women.

(00:18:01):
Well, I do too.

(00:18:02):
And I also think that just doesn't make sense.

(00:18:04):
Like if they were spending that much time figuring out how to game us,

(00:18:08):
they'd be far better at it.

(00:18:10):
Like they're not even good at it.

(00:18:13):
It's insulting to me how easy it is to analyze men on dating apps.

(00:18:18):
Like make it harder, please.

(00:18:20):
And what makes it easy for them to game us, unfortunately, is our socialization.

(00:18:26):
You know, they are socialized.

(00:18:28):
into entitlement and we are socialized into service and into this idea that we

(00:18:32):
should give them a chance and all of that.

(00:18:35):
And so,

(00:18:36):
you know,

(00:18:36):
naturally women,

(00:18:38):
you know,

(00:18:39):
they view men through their own lens of,

(00:18:41):
well,

(00:18:41):
I'm a decent person who's trying my best.

(00:18:43):
So he must be too.

(00:18:45):
And it's, it's like being punished for goodness.

(00:18:48):
It's, it's so sad.

(00:18:50):
For sure.

(00:18:50):
Yeah.

(00:18:51):
All right.

(00:18:51):
So tell me how, tell me a little bit about how your method

(00:18:55):
actually works?

(00:18:56):
Are there rules?

(00:18:57):
Is there like a step-by-step system?

(00:18:59):
Like how does someone who wants to do this, do this?

(00:19:03):
So there,

(00:19:04):
yes,

(00:19:04):
there are 10 rules that are very concrete and there I,

(00:19:11):
so I have a book coming out in the spring titled burn the haystack from Harper

(00:19:15):
Collins.

(00:19:16):
And

(00:19:17):
The rules are all spelled out in the book.

(00:19:21):
You can also find them on Instagram and in our Facebook group.

(00:19:26):
But yeah, there's 10 concrete rules, which we can go through if you want.

(00:19:34):
Then the other, so those are kind of like the rules of engagement.

(00:19:38):
Those are the rules of behavior.

(00:19:40):
And that's sort of like, that's how you would start.

(00:19:44):
So if you want to start using burned haystack,

(00:19:47):
do that first,

(00:19:48):
like do that while you're learning the other tactics,

(00:19:53):
because the other tactics are rhetorical strategies that are grounded in,

(00:19:59):
and I'll explain these terms,

(00:20:01):
grounded in applied rhetoric and

(00:20:03):
and specifically critical discourse analysis.

(00:20:06):
So applied rhetoric,

(00:20:09):
I mean,

(00:20:09):
rhetoric is the study of language,

(00:20:13):
but also images,

(00:20:15):
objects,

(00:20:16):
there's visual rhetoric,

(00:20:17):
there's material rhetoric,

(00:20:19):
there's embodied rhetoric.

(00:20:20):
Like if a man is getting in your space, your physical space,

(00:20:26):
That's embodied rhetoric.

(00:20:28):
There's a force behind that.

(00:20:29):
There's a message and there are consequences,

(00:20:32):
right,

(00:20:32):
for the person absorbing that and,

(00:20:35):
you know,

(00:20:36):
ideally for the guy who's imposing it.

(00:20:41):
So applied rhetoric simply means we're applying it to real life, right?

(00:20:45):
Like we could talk about how the ancient Greeks and Romans engaged in argumentative discourse.

(00:20:51):
That's theoretical rhetoric.

(00:20:53):
Applied rhetoric means we're applying it to real life.

(00:20:56):
And one practice or one sort of discipline within applied rhetoric is critical

(00:21:02):
discourse analysis.

(00:21:03):
So if I break those terms down and start with just discourse analysis,

(00:21:09):
the word discourse is just a fancy academic term for conversation.

(00:21:14):
So you're analyzing conversations.

(00:21:16):
And you can do that through various methods and in various scenarios.

(00:21:22):
When you add the word critical,

(00:21:24):
it means that you are looking at that conversation,

(00:21:29):
number one,

(00:21:30):
through a critical lens,

(00:21:31):
which means you're willing to critique it.

(00:21:34):
And then the other sort of expectation of the practice of critical discourse

(00:21:41):
analysis is that you won't stop just at analysis.

(00:21:47):
You'll use what you've learned to make the world better in some way.

(00:21:53):
So that's what I'm trying to do with burned haystack.

(00:21:55):
I'm trying to use discourse analysis to empower women to protect themselves

(00:22:02):
and live happier, more confident, more empowered lives, and to have healthier relationships.

(00:22:07):
So we've got all these rules.

(00:22:11):
And then we have these practices that sort of reside within this umbrella of applied rhetoric.

(00:22:17):
And we use all kinds of different strategies.

(00:22:21):
And I'll stop there now, because I realized that was kind of like a lot of academic talk.

(00:22:26):
But did that make sense?

(00:22:27):
Yeah, absolutely.

(00:22:27):
No, that's great.

(00:22:30):
I love the way you're doing this as a retired slash failed philosopher.

(00:22:34):
I'm just so like thrilled that you're.

(00:22:37):
I would.

(00:22:37):
First of all, you're actually probably one of the most successful modern day philosophers.

(00:22:43):
because you're talking to people and teaching them how to employ philosophy.

(00:22:48):
And then you're outside the halls of the academy.

(00:22:51):
There's no point in keeping philosophy within the walls of the academy.

(00:22:55):
That's what I always tell people is the best philosophy is philosophy for the masses.

(00:23:00):
It's why I am forever worshiping in the church of Kate Mann,

(00:23:05):
because she's just done it so perfectly.

(00:23:08):
But people struggle to see that as philosophy.

(00:23:11):
I think philosophy is often...

(00:23:13):
viewed as something that's like outside of like normal human existence which is

(00:23:17):
like a whole thing that I could get on but no I I won't make you go through all 10

(00:23:21):
things because I want people to get your book which is coming out in April um and

(00:23:27):
I'm I'm hoping that when it gets closer we'll actually do a book interview so I

(00:23:31):
would love that yeah the listeners listen to that um so um

(00:23:36):
I think one thing I'm sure you get this criticism a lot,

(00:23:41):
and I suspect you're probably getting it a lot more than me because your attention

(00:23:44):
is specifically focused on dating.

(00:23:47):
Um, but I get it too.

(00:23:50):
Something I hear a lot is,

(00:23:52):
well,

(00:23:52):
if you're telling women how to behave,

(00:23:55):
to be safe with men or to avoid men or to detect red flags or any of that,

(00:24:00):
then you're victim blaming because you're saying it's their fault if they get into

(00:24:04):
an abusive relationship.

(00:24:06):
Um,

(00:24:08):
Can you say something about that?

(00:24:10):
I mean, I definitely do not believe that, for one thing.

(00:24:13):
I think that most women beyond a certain age have been in abusive relationships.

(00:24:21):
So if we're going to say that's their fault, then we may as well give up on everything.

(00:24:26):
Because if that's the assumption, then we've now sort of

(00:24:30):
tacitly, collectively decided that women are stupid, right?

(00:24:34):
And I don't believe that.

(00:24:36):
I believe that we live in a patriarchy that supports abusive structures.

(00:24:41):
And we need a method for explicitly teaching people how to not get entangled in those traps.

(00:24:51):
And for me, that's burned haystack.

(00:24:55):
Yeah, yeah.

(00:24:56):
So I mean, I completely agree with you, obviously, I

(00:25:00):
Sometimes I feel like this,

(00:25:01):
well,

(00:25:01):
you're victim blaming discourse is actually a way of silencing information that

(00:25:05):
keeps women safe.

(00:25:06):
Yeah.

(00:25:07):
You know,

(00:25:09):
if you get into an abusive relationship,

(00:25:11):
even through your own bad choices,

(00:25:14):
that does not mean it's your fault.

(00:25:16):
And it certainly doesn't mean that you deserve it.

(00:25:19):
A lifetime of suffering is not a fair penalty for like letting down your guard once.

(00:25:25):
Yeah.

(00:25:28):
I just taped a podcast with Jeff, my husband, a couple of weeks ago.

(00:25:32):
And one of the analogies we used is that like,

(00:25:35):
you know,

(00:25:36):
you could probably be a perfect driver and like never get into a car accident.

(00:25:40):
But being a perfect driver is not realistic.

(00:25:42):
And so,

(00:25:43):
you know,

(00:25:44):
if you don't drive perfectly defensively once,

(00:25:47):
we don't say,

(00:25:47):
well,

(00:25:47):
you deserve to die or at least maybe.

(00:25:49):
Exactly.

(00:25:50):
Right.

(00:25:50):
It's the same sort of thing.

(00:25:51):
Like you wear your seatbelt because it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

(00:25:56):
Right.

(00:25:57):
Right.

(00:25:59):
So, yeah, I just I it bothers me to to absolutely no end.

(00:26:05):
All right.

(00:26:06):
So I think to me,

(00:26:09):
one of the most compelling aspects of your work is that you're giving permission.

(00:26:13):
You're giving women permission to judge men,

(00:26:16):
to judge them immediately,

(00:26:17):
to judge them without apology.

(00:26:19):
Right.

(00:26:20):
Judge them aggressively.

(00:26:21):
Right.

(00:26:22):
And a lot of what I see in my own work is that women feel this constant like

(00:26:26):
chronic moral obligation to give men a chance.

(00:26:29):
There's this scarcity mentality.

(00:26:31):
There's this idea of like women as like an accommodation or an entitlement of like,

(00:26:35):
well,

(00:26:36):
I have to make reasonable accommodations for this dude.

(00:26:40):
And I just love that you're turning that on its head and like judging them from

(00:26:45):
their first sentence.

(00:26:47):
Tell me, do you think you're rewiring women's brains?

(00:26:50):
Yeah.

(00:26:51):
I hope so, because, yeah, I'm frequently accused of being judgmental.

(00:26:56):
And my response to that is always, thank you.

(00:26:59):
That's exactly what I'm trying to do, because, you know, being judging has a negative effect.

(00:27:07):
And sometimes it should, but sometimes it means being discerning.

(00:27:11):
Sometimes it means making wise decisions based upon concrete evidence.

(00:27:16):
That is literally the job of a judge, right, if we think about this in a legal sense.

(00:27:24):
And the reason women feel so much pressure to give men the benefit of the doubt and

(00:27:30):
to be so forgiving is because literally everyone is telling us that.

(00:27:34):
That's kind of the whole inception of the burned haystack metaphor is that when I

(00:27:39):
was struggling myself at the very beginning,

(00:27:42):
you know,

(00:27:42):
I started Googling,

(00:27:44):
like,

(00:27:44):
how do you succeed on the dating apps?

(00:27:46):
Yeah.

(00:27:47):
And I kept running into that advice.

(00:27:49):
Give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

(00:27:51):
Give everyone a second chance.

(00:27:53):
Not everybody's good in words or things like this.

(00:27:58):
And I realized that that was absolutely backwards.

(00:28:02):
And also that if I were going to employ that advice,

(00:28:06):
I would die before I found a partner.

(00:28:09):
And so what I like about the burned haystack metaphor is that you don't go picking

(00:28:15):
through every piece of hay,

(00:28:17):
giving every little piece of hay a chance.

(00:28:19):
You just burn the haystack to the ground and then whatever's good will still be

(00:28:23):
there because those are the needles and metal doesn't burn.

(00:28:27):
So

(00:28:28):
Yeah, I'm totally fine with being judgmental.

(00:28:30):
I love it.

(00:28:31):
Yeah, I mean- I want all women to be super judgmental.

(00:28:35):
Yeah, like, yeah, judgment, make men lonely again.

(00:28:38):
I mean, yeah, they're doing a good job on their own, but we can help too.

(00:28:45):
Yeah, the loneliness epidemic is not spreading fast enough.

(00:28:48):
Like, let's accelerate it.

(00:28:50):
And neither is, you know, women are always like,

(00:28:55):
trying to overcome our imposter syndrome.

(00:28:58):
We need more men to have.

(00:29:00):
Yeah.

(00:29:02):
Yeah.

(00:29:03):
Like hashtag give men imposters.

(00:29:06):
They're just way too confident and it's based on nothing other than,

(00:29:10):
you know,

(00:29:11):
birthright,

(00:29:12):
I guess.

(00:29:13):
Yeah, I think it is.

(00:29:14):
It absolutely is.

(00:29:15):
All right.

(00:29:15):
So tell me what are some common rhetorical patterns you see?

(00:29:21):
Like, what are you looking for?

(00:29:23):
Okay.

(00:29:23):
So rhetorical patterns are what we use to help women identify red flags so that

(00:29:30):
they can not waste any time and just be like,

(00:29:32):
oh,

(00:29:33):
I know that one it's test and apologize.

(00:29:35):
And like, I'm blocking to burn and moving on.

(00:29:37):
And these are all like black to burn is one of our rules.

(00:29:40):
I want to go back to the,

(00:29:41):
this story that you opened the podcast with,

(00:29:45):
because as you were reading that woman's words,

(00:29:48):
you

(00:29:49):
You know, I'm, I'm so, I live the rhetorical patterns, right?

(00:29:53):
They, they just like, they light up in my brain.

(00:29:55):
So I jotted them down.

(00:29:57):
And the first one I saw was the one title, and this one's a little bit unusual.

(00:30:02):
So I'm, I'm glad that your example, um,

(00:30:06):
included this one.

(00:30:07):
And just to be clear with,

(00:30:08):
with Zahn's listeners,

(00:30:10):
the two of us didn't talk about this right before.

(00:30:12):
Like I didn't know what was coming there.

(00:30:15):
Yeah.

(00:30:16):
So I, I saw what I call control masquerading as anxiety, right?

(00:30:22):
Cause this guy was weaponizing his own anxiety.

(00:30:25):
He was quote unquote being vulnerable and

(00:30:28):
But but in his case, and this isn't always the case, right?

(00:30:32):
Men can be anxious without weaponizing.

(00:30:34):
But in this case,

(00:30:36):
that his vulnerability and anxiety was serving as a channel for him to control her.

(00:30:42):
OK, so that's one rhetorical pattern.

(00:30:44):
Control masquerading as anxiety.

(00:30:46):
And we see this with the guys that are like,

(00:30:48):
you know,

(00:30:48):
they can't wait five minutes for you to respond.

(00:30:51):
Right.

(00:30:51):
And that's a form of control.

(00:30:54):
I saw weaponized spirituality.

(00:30:56):
It sounded like he had some sort of spiritual positioning that he was weaponizing.

(00:31:04):
We have a pattern called Eeyores on the apps, which is like, oh, woe is me.

(00:31:09):
Like, I've had so many hard times.

(00:31:11):
And that becomes weaponized also.

(00:31:12):
Yeah.

(00:31:13):
And then I also saw performative sensitivity and performative feminism,

(00:31:20):
in which neither the sensitivity or the feminism are real.

(00:31:24):
They're just performances intended to, you know, sort of bring women into their web.

(00:31:32):
Yeah, I mean, I...

(00:31:35):
It's interesting how you highlight those because these are patterns that I see with

(00:31:41):
the women that I work with and talk to a lot that there's this thing of wanting to

(00:31:48):
make sure that men are saying they're feminists.

(00:31:51):
wanting to make sure that men self-identify as sensitive and wanting men to have,

(00:31:56):
like,

(00:31:56):
gone to therapy.

(00:31:57):
And men just weaponize the shit out of this.

(00:32:02):
And to me, you know, my perspective is we need to look at behavior.

(00:32:08):
But I also think, like, yeah, just noting that he is –

(00:32:13):
Kind of like ticking off these boxes as a way to gain more and more control is a

(00:32:19):
really insightful way of seeing it.

(00:32:21):
And it's wildly effective if women don't have access to sort of the keys to unlock

(00:32:28):
what's going on,

(00:32:30):
which is what the rhetorical patterns do.

(00:32:32):
Yeah.

(00:32:34):
The shocking thing,

(00:32:35):
I mean,

(00:32:35):
it's almost impressive,

(00:32:37):
but not in a good way,

(00:32:38):
how consistent toxic rhetorical patterns are among men.

(00:32:42):
Like they just all do the same thing.

(00:32:44):
And we've got, I think there are 33 in the book, but I had to limit myself to the top 33.

(00:32:50):
I mean, that's a monster of a chapter.

(00:32:53):
And each one has tons of examples, like from, you know, real men on the apps.

(00:32:58):
Yeah.

(00:32:59):
And they're, you know, I don't even know how many I've identified overall.

(00:33:03):
I think it's close to 50, but they're predictable and they're, yeah, they're just all the same.

(00:33:09):
But the good thing is once you see them, you can't unsee them.

(00:33:13):
And you can...

(00:33:14):
You can internal,

(00:33:15):
I think for someone who's brand new to Burn Haystack is probably sitting here

(00:33:19):
thinking,

(00:33:20):
I don't know that I can memorize 33 rhetorical patterns.

(00:33:23):
You don't have to.

(00:33:24):
Like if you spend some time in our community and also just like flipping through

(00:33:28):
dating apps,

(00:33:29):
you will internalize them and they just like leap off of your phone at you.

(00:33:34):
Yeah.

(00:33:37):
I mean, that's certainly...

(00:33:40):
I haven't memorized them all.

(00:33:42):
I feel like I'm kind of like a satellite circling around it,

(00:33:46):
but I feel like even though I cannot name them all,

(00:33:49):
I definitely know them all because it's like they have a playbook,

(00:33:53):
Jenny.

(00:33:54):
Where are they getting it?

(00:33:57):
Where's the secret book?

(00:33:58):
Is there like a troll under a bridge?

(00:34:01):
When do they get this?

(00:34:02):
Yeah.

(00:34:04):
You know,

(00:34:04):
we were talking about this in the Facebook community yesterday because they go

(00:34:09):
through these phases.

(00:34:11):
Like right now, they're all about dancing in the kitchen.

(00:34:14):
All of their dating apps.

(00:34:16):
Like I love impromptu late night kitchen dances.

(00:34:19):
Yeah.

(00:34:22):
And I've too wondered, is there a secret book?

(00:34:24):
I don't think there is.

(00:34:25):
I think they just Google like,

(00:34:27):
what should I put in my dating app,

(00:34:28):
you know,

(00:34:29):
and,

(00:34:30):
and then Google images shows them a bunch of other men's dating apps and they copy

(00:34:35):
it because I don't know,

(00:34:36):
they lack creativity or.

(00:34:38):
self insight or whatever it is a little while ago,

(00:34:41):
they were all comparing themselves to cars and trucks and,

(00:34:45):
you know,

(00:34:45):
writing things like,

(00:34:46):
Oh my God,

(00:34:47):
I had a few miles on me,

(00:34:48):
but the transmission still works.

(00:34:51):
It's,

(00:34:51):
it's,

(00:34:53):
it's concerning how captivated they are with each other's stories that they want to

(00:35:00):
then just copy it.

(00:35:01):
I don't think women do this.

(00:35:03):
I mean, I'm sure it happens to some degree, but yeah,

(00:35:07):
yeah it's it's problematic and kind of hilarious really and we do i use humor to

(00:35:15):
entertain but i also use it as a as a political tool social political tool so yeah

(00:35:22):
we do find the humor in these things yeah well i mean it's you might as well laugh

(00:35:26):
because otherwise you have to but it's it's like you know i i'm far from the first

(00:35:30):
person to say this it's

(00:35:32):
you know,

(00:35:33):
lots of feminists have talked about the fact that men seem fundamentally oriented

(00:35:36):
toward other men.

(00:35:37):
And that's who they care to impress, not women, because we're not really people.

(00:35:43):
Right, right.

(00:35:44):
Well, and then, you know, so you're familiar with like male gaze theory, right?

(00:35:49):
That women,

(00:35:51):
we like,

(00:35:51):
we see ourselves through the male gaze because we've been socialized to do so.

(00:35:56):
But we were talking about this in the Facebook group yesterday.

(00:35:58):
I feel like men are now suffering from the male gaze.

(00:36:03):
Like they're filtering themselves through each other.

(00:36:07):
I think this is partly due to the dude bro

(00:36:11):
podcasters out there you know they've got yeah phones that they're screaming at

(00:36:16):
each other through but yeah it's it's fascinating well it's also it's really

(00:36:23):
interesting to see how men are being like algorithmically normalized into like one

(00:36:30):
single man to where there's only like one male personality so

(00:36:36):
my husband is like a legitimate devoted feminist and like a career activist,

(00:36:42):
but he also happens to like sports,

(00:36:44):
which I guess,

(00:36:44):
you know,

(00:36:45):
that's the danger zone.

(00:36:47):
Um,

(00:36:48):
and he got really into,

(00:36:51):
I'm going to use the wrong word and basketball fans are going to be mad at me,

(00:36:55):
but the basketball championship,

(00:36:58):
um,

(00:36:59):
A couple of months.

(00:37:00):
The Basketball World Series?

(00:37:01):
Nope, that's not it either.

(00:37:02):
Yeah, I don't know it either.

(00:37:03):
I know what you're talking about, and I also don't know the term.

(00:37:07):
The one where they bounce the ball to get the trophy, but they don't actually get a trophy.

(00:37:11):
So there's a bunch of games.

(00:37:14):
And he was watching it on YouTube, I guess, because you can watch replays.

(00:37:17):
And this is the only thing he watches on YouTube, because he's not a TV or screen guy.

(00:37:24):
And then all of a sudden his like YouTube algorithm was filled to the brim with

(00:37:30):
specifically Andrew Tate and then like adjacent stuff.

(00:37:35):
Yeah.

(00:37:36):
And then a lot of the kind of like softer misogyny that you talked about.

(00:37:39):
Yeah.

(00:37:40):
Solely because he was watching basketball.

(00:37:43):
Yeah.

(00:37:44):
And I'm like, well, thankfully, you know, he's not a worthless piece of shit.

(00:37:48):
Yeah.

(00:37:49):
But if he were,

(00:37:50):
or if he were say a 14 year old boy trying to learn how to impress women,

(00:37:55):
it's like,

(00:37:55):
okay,

(00:37:56):
now for watching basketball,

(00:37:58):
he's going to get brainwashed so that he can like join the collective Borg of men

(00:38:02):
who just have one shared,

(00:38:04):
not very well working brain.

(00:38:07):
Right.

(00:38:07):
Yeah.

(00:38:07):
I mean, you can definitely see how it happens.

(00:38:10):
And then you add in things like, you know, insecurity or, you know, any kind of,

(00:38:19):
I don't know, like clamoring for community or acceptance or whatever it is.

(00:38:25):
And it's very easy to understand how these guys get sucked into some of these communities.

(00:38:29):
And I'm not making an excuse for them.

(00:38:33):
That's not a valid excuse to me.

(00:38:36):
But it does sort of explain how it happens.

(00:38:39):
Oh, yeah.

(00:38:39):
Well, I mean...

(00:38:40):
Men have problems, too.

(00:38:41):
You know, one of those problems is not patriarchy.

(00:38:45):
But, you know, I mean, men struggle with money.

(00:38:48):
They struggle with friends.

(00:38:49):
They struggle with addiction, you know, abusive families, all of that.

(00:38:54):
And then what ends up happening is when they go looking for help,

(00:38:57):
the help tells them,

(00:38:59):
well,

(00:38:59):
what you need to blame is feminism and women.

(00:39:01):
And what you need to do is be an abusive alpha.

(00:39:04):
Yep.

(00:39:04):
Yep.

(00:39:05):
And like when you're struggling and you're desperate,

(00:39:07):
it's like,

(00:39:08):
oh,

(00:39:08):
okay,

(00:39:08):
well,

(00:39:09):
at least you're giving me a solution.

(00:39:11):
Right, right.

(00:39:13):
Well,

(00:39:14):
and we haven't even,

(00:39:15):
and this is a whole podcast in itself or a series of podcasts,

(00:39:20):
but I'm pretty convinced at this point that,

(00:39:24):
I mean,

(00:39:24):
Pornhub specifically,

(00:39:26):
but internet porn in general is a large part of the problem.

(00:39:31):
Yeah, you think so?

(00:39:31):
I do.

(00:39:32):
I really do.

(00:39:33):
I didn't start out this way, but I'm quickly becoming a porn abolitionist.

(00:39:39):
I don't think that it's a sustainable channel of

(00:39:48):
entertainment or hobby or whatever you want to call it.

(00:39:52):
If we're ever going to get to a healthier dynamic between men and women,

(00:39:57):
I theoretically,

(00:39:59):
you know,

(00:39:59):
it's possible to have feminist or,

(00:40:01):
or women friendly porn.

(00:40:03):
That is not what's paying the bills or an industry.

(00:40:08):
Um, what's paying the bills is pretty horrifying and, and violence.

(00:40:13):
Um,

(00:40:14):
And and I think a lot of what we're seeing reflected in the dating apps is rooted

(00:40:21):
in men's use of porn.

(00:40:24):
So, OK, can we talk about this a little bit?

(00:40:26):
I know that's not like what you came on to talk about,

(00:40:28):
but I have a lot of thoughts on this and I'd like to get yours.

(00:40:32):
OK, so OK, so I'll I'll tell you where I I started as a porn abolitionist.

(00:40:39):
And then in my 20s, I worked in the corporate office at a strip club.

(00:40:46):
And yeah, it was wild.

(00:40:49):
And it both intensified my anti-porn,

(00:40:53):
all of that feelings in terms of like my personal life,

(00:40:57):
that this is harmful.

(00:40:59):
But it also showed me how every time we enact legislation to try to control this,

(00:41:05):
It victimizes women.

(00:41:06):
It never seems to affect men.

(00:41:09):
And so where I have sort of landed is that,

(00:41:12):
like,

(00:41:13):
I am pro-sex worker,

(00:41:14):
pro-listening to sex workers,

(00:41:16):
pro-advocating for the policies that they say would protect them because,

(00:41:19):
like,

(00:41:20):
I don't know because I'm not a sex worker.

(00:41:21):
Right, right.

(00:41:23):
And generally opposed to most regulatory legislation because I've seen how over and

(00:41:28):
over again it's weaponized against women.

(00:41:31):
it's used to arrest sex workers.

(00:41:32):
It's used to, you know, call women who are in porn abusive, all of that.

(00:41:36):
But in like my personal life and my personal philosophy, like, I think it's terrible.

(00:41:41):
I think it's harmful.

(00:41:42):
I don't engage with it.

(00:41:43):
Like I,

(00:41:43):
you know,

(00:41:44):
my husband doesn't consume pornography and like,

(00:41:47):
I don't really see how people can constantly consume what's out there,

(00:41:53):
at least in the mainstream and not be damaged by it.

(00:41:55):
And to me, it's not just

(00:41:56):
The content, because like everybody has their own sexual interests.

(00:42:00):
It's the accessibility.

(00:42:01):
It's the fact that you can watch it for like eight hours a day.

(00:42:05):
Yeah.

(00:42:07):
And that seems to be a lot of what these men are doing.

(00:42:10):
Is that your sense as well?

(00:42:13):
Yes, absolutely.

(00:42:14):
And it's so politically, I'm positioned exactly the way like exactly what you just described.

(00:42:23):
But yeah, I do think there's many of them that are that are doing exactly that.

(00:42:27):
And it's,

(00:42:28):
it's warping their conception,

(00:42:30):
not just of women,

(00:42:33):
but of like kind of life in general about all kinds of things,

(00:42:37):
right?

(00:42:37):
I mean, it's a

(00:42:40):
I don't know.

(00:42:40):
I go back and forth on,

(00:42:42):
on the,

(00:42:43):
the addiction model of,

(00:42:44):
of pornography,

(00:42:46):
but yeah,

(00:42:48):
it's,

(00:42:48):
it's definitely a problem on the dating apps.

(00:42:50):
And, and I'm not, you know, it's, this is outside my area of academic expertise.

(00:42:54):
So I don't want to like make you too much,

(00:42:57):
but I do think it's a huge factor in the dating apps and,

(00:43:00):
and maybe for the generations younger than mine,

(00:43:04):
more so even than mine.

(00:43:05):
And I'm saying this from, you know, what I hear from my students.

(00:43:09):
Yeah.

(00:43:09):
Yeah,

(00:43:10):
I definitely,

(00:43:11):
I,

(00:43:12):
so we have two kids and we've had like nannies since they were babies and our

(00:43:16):
nannies are generally,

(00:43:17):
you know,

(00:43:17):
like college aged or a little older and all of them have told us like just porn is,

(00:43:23):
is wrecking their lives.

(00:43:24):
Yes.

(00:43:25):
Yeah.

(00:43:26):
And like,

(00:43:26):
they know it in a way that I feel like my generation didn't know about,

(00:43:30):
didn't know it.

(00:43:32):
Right.

(00:43:32):
So that's, that's interesting to me.

(00:43:35):
I also think,

(00:43:37):
Most of my work is with married women.

(00:43:39):
And I also feel like we're perhaps seeing this even more acutely with married women

(00:43:44):
because what's happening with them is their partners claim to want sex,

(00:43:50):
but they don't actually want sex.

(00:43:52):
They want like coerced sex that's very short and all about the man.

(00:43:57):
And like...

(00:43:59):
Which is a different thing, right?

(00:44:00):
That's a different thing than sex.

(00:44:02):
Yeah, they want sex as defined by him.

(00:44:05):
Like sex is defined as he gets what he wants and she doesn't get anything she wants.

(00:44:10):
Right.

(00:44:10):
And,

(00:44:11):
like,

(00:44:11):
I've talked to women who will,

(00:44:14):
after their husbands are,

(00:44:15):
like,

(00:44:15):
whining and pleading,

(00:44:16):
being like,

(00:44:16):
okay,

(00:44:16):
let's have sex,

(00:44:17):
and then,

(00:44:18):
like,

(00:44:18):
expect him to be invested in her well-being.

(00:44:21):
And then suddenly he's not interested.

(00:44:23):
So, like, I said something a while ago that, like, men don't actually want sex with women.

(00:44:28):
They just want to complain about it.

(00:44:29):
Yeah.

(00:44:30):
Yeah.

(00:44:31):
And I think that's, I think that may be a porn thing too.

(00:44:35):
I absolutely do.

(00:44:36):
Yeah.

(00:44:36):
I mean,

(00:44:37):
porn flattens out the experience of sex to this sort of one dimensional

(00:44:42):
transactional,

(00:44:45):
you know,

(00:44:45):
experience that doesn't replicate what human sex actually is.

(00:44:50):
Yeah.

(00:44:51):
And then just pressing a button and getting to it,

(00:44:53):
I think really contributes to this notion of women as appliances,

(00:44:57):
which men already harbor with or without pornography.

(00:44:59):
Yeah.

(00:45:00):
Yeah.

(00:45:00):
I mean, that's, you know, a patriarchal construct, right?

(00:45:04):
Yeah.

(00:45:05):
It always has been.

(00:45:07):
All right.

(00:45:07):
So in light of all of those horrors,

(00:45:10):
I think we can probably both agree that like most or if not most many women are

(00:45:15):
going to have to be single to be safe and happy,

(00:45:18):
given how normalized abuse and misogyny are among men.

(00:45:22):
So

(00:45:23):
Based on what you've seen on the dating apps and what you've seen with women in

(00:45:26):
your groups,

(00:45:27):
what percentage of women do you think can reasonably expect to end up in a happy

(00:45:31):
relationship with a man?

(00:45:32):
Wow.

(00:45:34):
I don't know the answer to that.

(00:45:36):
And I also think that the spectrum of what we now consider relationship with a man

(00:45:43):
is becoming increasingly diffuse,

(00:45:47):
right?

(00:45:47):
Like I don't...

(00:45:50):
I know in my platforms,

(00:45:53):
there's a lot of women who are studying a dating method who aren't even dating.

(00:45:58):
They're not even intending to date ever.

(00:46:00):
They're interested in the rhetoric or the sociology or the interaction patterns.

(00:46:07):
But they don't necessarily intend to be partnered.

(00:46:10):
Or even if they do, marriage is not necessarily the goal anymore.

(00:46:16):
I mean, definitely for women of my generation, but also definitely for my students' generation.

(00:46:23):
I think a lot of women...

(00:46:26):
might like to enjoy spending time with men, but maybe that's more than one man.

(00:46:33):
Maybe it's one man as a best friend.

(00:46:36):
Maybe it's a series of men over the course of their lives that like fulfill sort of

(00:46:43):
this romantic partnership.

(00:46:46):
desire,

(00:46:47):
but,

(00:46:47):
but not necessarily in a way that like,

(00:46:50):
I'm going to commit my life to you and give things up for you.

(00:46:54):
So I don't know that.

(00:46:56):
I mean,

(00:46:56):
that's a question for the sociologists to answer,

(00:46:58):
but it's such a moving target right now too.

(00:47:01):
Right.

(00:47:02):
I mean,

(00:47:02):
we're seeing,

(00:47:03):
you know,

(00:47:04):
that you're familiar with the 4B movement and we're seeing a mini manifestation of

(00:47:11):
that in the United States.

(00:47:13):
And I don't really know what's going to happen with it.

(00:47:16):
Yeah.

(00:47:16):
I mean,

(00:47:17):
I,

(00:47:17):
my perspective is that women need to get really comfortable with the idea of being

(00:47:22):
single because again,

(00:47:24):
no matter what,

(00:47:25):
even if you want to be partnered,

(00:47:26):
you're not going to end up in a healthy partnership if you're not a hundred

(00:47:30):
percent.

(00:47:30):
Okay.

(00:47:31):
Being single and women, like if you have a daughter right now and you're listening to this,

(00:47:38):
before any other message, your message has to be financial independence.

(00:47:43):
Yes.

(00:47:44):
Thank you.

(00:47:45):
No questions asked.

(00:47:46):
It's not even, it's, it should not even be like a topic of conversation.

(00:47:53):
Young women have to be brought up to be 100% financially independent.

(00:47:57):
That's where it all starts.

(00:47:59):
Yes.

(00:47:59):
And I think, you know, I think

(00:48:02):
That can be challenging for a lot of leftist feminists like me and a lot of my

(00:48:08):
listeners because deeply uncomfortable with like exploitative capitalism and kind

(00:48:14):
of like really like this idea of,

(00:48:17):
well,

(00:48:17):
let's have goats and let's give to our neighbors and let's do midwifery services

(00:48:23):
for free.

(00:48:24):
Yeah.

(00:48:25):
you know,

(00:48:25):
the idea of like,

(00:48:27):
you got to make money is stressful and unsettling,

(00:48:30):
but we have to prepare for the world that we have.

(00:48:33):
Right.

(00:48:34):
And in the world that we have, money is pretty much the only way that women can escape men.

(00:48:40):
Yes.

(00:48:41):
Yep.

(00:48:42):
I mean, I have, yeah, no notes what you just said.

(00:48:46):
Yeah.

(00:48:47):
But I'm so glad you brought that up because I feel like this is something

(00:48:51):
a lot of my listeners are grappling with and,

(00:48:55):
and like really,

(00:48:55):
you know,

(00:48:57):
I have a lot of listeners who are struggling with like,

(00:48:59):
they're going to have to work 40 hours a week if they leave their partners and

(00:49:02):
they're going to have to use childcare.

(00:49:04):
And,

(00:49:05):
you know,

(00:49:05):
they've gotten a lot of messaging about how that makes them bad mothers or that's

(00:49:09):
unnatural or that's,

(00:49:10):
you know,

(00:49:11):
anathema to like their leftist politics.

(00:49:13):
But it's like,

(00:49:13):
you know,

(00:49:14):
the,

(00:49:15):
the starting point for freedom has to be personal freedom and safety.

(00:49:19):
Yeah.

(00:49:20):
Yeah.

(00:49:20):
I mean,

(00:49:20):
you're talking this is the base level of Maslow's hierarchy,

(00:49:25):
which unfortunately in 2025 America does involve money.

(00:49:30):
Yeah.

(00:49:32):
Yeah.

(00:49:33):
God, it's it's so scary to be a person right now.

(00:49:37):
It really.

(00:49:37):
Yeah.

(00:49:37):
It's increasingly scary.

(00:49:40):
I mean, we we know that right now.

(00:49:43):
Yeah.

(00:49:45):
So,

(00:49:45):
okay,

(00:49:45):
can I ask you,

(00:49:46):
and you don't have to answer this if you don't want to,

(00:49:48):
are you still dating?

(00:49:50):
Well, I have a Hinge account.

(00:49:53):
Okay.

(00:49:57):
So I took myself off the dating apps right as Burnt Haystack exploded, which...

(00:50:05):
Seems, I mean, definitely is ironic and seems perhaps hypocritical, but I have a full-time job.

(00:50:12):
Like on top of Bernd Haystack, I have a full-time job.

(00:50:15):
And Bernd Haystack is also a full-time job.

(00:50:18):
And I'm writing the book.

(00:50:19):
So like something had to go.

(00:50:21):
Yeah.

(00:50:22):
For me, it was dating.

(00:50:23):
And I sort of like made a deal with myself and,

(00:50:26):
and with my,

(00:50:27):
with the women in the Bernadette community that I would take another stab at it

(00:50:31):
when I finished the book manuscript,

(00:50:34):
which,

(00:50:35):
which I finished in June.

(00:50:36):
Although, I mean, we're still editing.

(00:50:38):
So it's still like,

(00:50:38):
it's a lot of work,

(00:50:39):
but I did,

(00:50:40):
I put myself back on the dating apps earlier in the summer.

(00:50:44):
And I did a month of Bumble and

(00:50:47):
which was terrible.

(00:50:49):
And now I'm like a week and a half into one month of hinge.

(00:50:53):
And I like, I'm not going to, I'm not going to make it.

(00:50:56):
I already know it.

(00:50:56):
I'm not going to get through the month.

(00:50:58):
It's too frustrating for me.

(00:51:03):
So yeah, I don't know.

(00:51:04):
I mean,

(00:51:04):
my,

(00:51:06):
my saving grace as an influencer is that many,

(00:51:11):
many other women have found their needles.

(00:51:13):
Yeah.

(00:51:14):
Yeah.

(00:51:14):
excuse me, using burned haystack.

(00:51:16):
It remains to be seen whether I will or not.

(00:51:19):
But I also have some challenges that other women don't.

(00:51:23):
For one thing, I don't have the option to pretend like I'm not using burned haystack.

(00:51:30):
As soon as somebody knows my full name,

(00:51:33):
we're looking at a much different scenario than for most people.

(00:51:38):
And then the other reality,

(00:51:39):
and this is one that I'm trying to be very honest with myself about,

(00:51:43):
is

(00:51:44):
It would be insane for me to say that the work I do has not altered my perception of men.

(00:51:51):
It has.

(00:51:53):
You know what?

(00:51:53):
If that's the cost of,

(00:51:56):
and this sounds very,

(00:51:58):
I don't know,

(00:51:59):
it sounds dramatic,

(00:52:00):
but if the cost of me helping to right some wrongs in the world and empower other

(00:52:08):
women is that I stay single forever,

(00:52:10):
I'm actually quite fine with that.

(00:52:14):
And I don't think that's a huge cost.

(00:52:18):
Cause if you're, you're happy single, then you're avoiding these like monsters.

(00:52:24):
And I,

(00:52:25):
you know,

(00:52:25):
I don't mean to like in any way imply that like,

(00:52:28):
Oh,

(00:52:28):
if you're single,

(00:52:28):
it doesn't work.

(00:52:29):
You know,

(00:52:30):
I'm,

(00:52:30):
I actually think,

(00:52:32):
you know,

(00:52:33):
staying single is generally like a more powerful position for this.

(00:52:36):
Cause it means you're not having to like seek out men's approval and like, right.

(00:52:40):
All of those like gross games.

(00:52:42):
And,

(00:52:43):
Well,

(00:52:43):
and the other thing that I think is really worth saying here,

(00:52:46):
and it goes to what you and I were talking about a second ago with financial

(00:52:50):
independence.

(00:52:52):
So I started Burned Haystack out of frustration.

(00:52:56):
I did, using my own methods, I did actually find a needle very quickly.

(00:53:00):
And we spent about two years together.

(00:53:04):
And it was when that relationship ended that I decided to make Burned Haystack a

(00:53:10):
public endeavor.

(00:53:12):
And because I've been single...

(00:53:17):
I've had a lot of time to myself,

(00:53:20):
and that's what has allowed me to do the work I've done,

(00:53:24):
which I consider a privilege,

(00:53:28):
but also just useful.

(00:53:30):
The fact that I've not been bogged down catering to men or trying to make myself

(00:53:38):
appealing or to accommodate or whatever –

(00:53:40):
That's why I've been able to create the amount of content I've created in the last two years.

(00:53:46):
It's why I was able to write a book proposal.

(00:53:48):
It's why I was able to write a book.

(00:53:50):
These things are gifts.

(00:53:52):
This is the good side of being on your own that we don't talk about enough.

(00:54:00):
Oh, absolutely.

(00:54:01):
Well, and I would add to that, not as a counter to being single, but as kind of like

(00:54:07):
a way to judge the worthiness of relationships is that a relationship is something

(00:54:13):
you co-create with somebody else that is supposed to multiply what you have on your

(00:54:18):
own.

(00:54:18):
Right, exactly.

(00:54:19):
And so if a relationship is not increasing your power,

(00:54:24):
your happiness,

(00:54:25):
your downtime because you've got someone to share the load with,

(00:54:28):
all of that,

(00:54:29):
then like,

(00:54:30):
what the fuck are you even doing?

(00:54:32):
Right, and for the vast majority of women,

(00:54:36):
they are sacrificing more than they're gaining in, in relationships with men.

(00:54:41):
Not all, obviously, right.

(00:54:42):
You have a feminist marriage.

(00:54:44):
I have a lot of friends who have feminist marriages,

(00:54:46):
but if someone is adding to your workload,

(00:54:50):
whether emotional or actual,

(00:54:52):
rather than lifting something off of you,

(00:54:55):
then that's something that needs to be critically examined.

(00:54:59):
Yeah.

(00:55:00):
And, and I will just say like, I,

(00:55:02):
I do have a feminist marriage.

(00:55:03):
Like I, I truly won the marriage lottery, not really thanks to anything about me.

(00:55:09):
Um, but that doesn't undermine the reality that like, they're very difficult to have.

(00:55:15):
And like,

(00:55:15):
you might have friends with feminist marriages,

(00:55:17):
but I don't know anybody else who has a marriage I would want.

(00:55:21):
Um, I think that's what marriage has, has become.

(00:55:24):
So, you know, I, I, I just lucked out in an otherwise really oppressive and awful system.

(00:55:32):
Well, but you also had the knowledge and the mindset to recognize what you did want.

(00:55:41):
Oh, definitely.

(00:55:41):
And that's important too, right?

(00:55:43):
Like that's what we do for all women.

(00:55:45):
Well,

(00:55:45):
and I think the thing that I would want people to internalize is that your method

(00:55:52):
and then my kind of sort of more amorphous way of looking at things

(00:55:57):
They don't actually get you a partner.

(00:55:59):
They help you avoid abuse.

(00:56:01):
These are abuse avoidance tools.

(00:56:04):
Thank you for saying that because it's so important.

(00:56:07):
Yeah.

(00:56:08):
So avoiding abuse doesn't mean you get a partner.

(00:56:11):
It just means you avoid abuse.

(00:56:13):
And that's enough.

(00:56:13):
Like we should want to avoid abuse.

(00:56:17):
And,

(00:56:17):
you know,

(00:56:18):
the reason I say I'm lucky is like,

(00:56:19):
you know,

(00:56:20):
I avoided abuse because like I started dating from a position of like men aren't

(00:56:25):
shit and I don't give a fuck.

(00:56:26):
Um,

(00:56:27):
and,

(00:56:27):
and,

(00:56:28):
you know,

(00:56:28):
then I like stumbled across one who I actually really liked,

(00:56:31):
but I might not have important for me to have maintained that outlook regardless.

(00:56:39):
Cause otherwise you just fall into the next abusive relationship that comes along.

(00:56:43):
Yeah, no, that's exactly right.

(00:56:45):
And, and the harsh truth is that there are not enough questions.

(00:56:52):
good men to partner with the number of amazing women who are out there.

(00:56:58):
That's not just my opinion.

(00:57:00):
Ask any psychologist or sociologist,

(00:57:03):
and they will tell you there is a severe shortage of even adequate men right now.

(00:57:09):
Now, I mean, we're at one point in human evolution, right?

(00:57:12):
And yeah, it's been like this for centuries and generations.

(00:57:15):
That's true.

(00:57:17):
We still don't really know though.

(00:57:18):
I mean, you know, our perspective is so limited and who knows where things are going.

(00:57:25):
I mean,

(00:57:26):
I think they can change,

(00:57:28):
but in order for them to change,

(00:57:30):
men have to change and men can change.

(00:57:32):
There's nothing about this.

(00:57:34):
I mean,

(00:57:34):
look at all of the,

(00:57:36):
the cultural indoctrination we do from even before birth with boys and men.

(00:57:42):
Um,

(00:57:44):
You know, we can't say that this is inevitable until we end all of that.

(00:57:47):
And we're not even close to ending all of that.

(00:57:49):
Right.

(00:57:49):
Exactly.

(00:57:50):
Yeah.

(00:57:51):
Jenny, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

(00:57:54):
Thank you for having me.

(00:57:55):
You're wonderful.

(00:57:56):
And I'm just so glad you're out there doing this.

(00:58:00):
Well, I have been fangirling you for a long time.

(00:58:03):
So this is truly an honor to talk with you and to have your listeners,

(00:58:09):
you know,

(00:58:10):
be part of this conversation.

(00:58:11):
So thank you for providing that.

(00:58:13):
Oh, yay.

(00:58:14):
So you can find Jenny's work on Substack as well as in her Facebook community.

(00:58:19):
I'll put links to her work in the show notes.

(00:58:21):
She also, as we mentioned, has her book coming out in April of 2026.

(00:58:25):
So do you know when people can pre-order?

(00:58:27):
Do you have that date yet?

(00:58:28):
Yeah, pre-order.

(00:58:29):
You can pre-order right now.

(00:58:31):
Oh, awesome.

(00:58:32):
Okay.

(00:58:32):
So you should pre-order now because publishers really care about that.

(00:58:35):
And so that will- Yes, please do.

(00:58:37):
That will help.

(00:58:38):
Yeah.

(00:58:39):
there's links to do all of that from all of my channels.

(00:58:43):
Okay.

(00:58:43):
So I'll make sure it's on Barnes and Noble.

(00:58:45):
It's, it's everywhere.

(00:58:47):
Awesome.

(00:58:47):
So I'll, I'll put that up.

(00:58:48):
And I think Jenny and I are going to do something else when her book gets a little

(00:58:52):
closer to publication.

(00:58:54):
So, you know, keep listening.

(00:58:56):
Let's see other notes for everybody.

(00:58:58):
The liberating motherhood website contains tons of information,

(00:59:01):
including it will have Jenny's information.

(00:59:03):
I also have a long list of book recommendations,

(00:59:06):
information about how to ask a question,

(00:59:08):
how to appear on the podcast,

(00:59:10):
links to everything I'm doing.

(00:59:12):
It's a fun website.

(00:59:13):
I like it.

(00:59:14):
Check it out at liberatingmotherhood.org.

(00:59:16):
And as always, please don't forget to subscribe to my newsletter at zahn.substack.com.

(00:59:22):
Our next podcast episode will be one with Jeff,

(00:59:25):
during which we will talk about misandry,

(00:59:27):
the myth of misandry,

(00:59:28):
why hating men is not morally equivalent to hating women,

(00:59:30):
and whether I am,

(00:59:32):
in fact,

(00:59:33):
a man hater.

(00:59:34):
As a reminder, paid subscribers get access to at least one bonus podcast episode per month.

(00:59:39):
If you want to support this podcast,

(00:59:41):
you can become a paid subscriber on Substack or Patreon,

(00:59:45):
or you can leave a positive review,

(00:59:47):
heart react the podcast,

(00:59:48):
share online,

(00:59:50):
leave comments,

(00:59:51):
share with everyone,

(00:59:52):
please.

(00:59:53):
Every time someone engages with the podcast, it makes it more visible to others.

(00:59:57):
So these small actions really help.

(00:59:59):
Thank you as always for listening.

(01:00:01):
And Jeff and I will be discussing my alleged man hatred on August 20th.